PDA

View Full Version : Obama disses Gun Owners, Religious..etc..etc..


FreedomIsNotFree
04-11-2008, 2:14 PM
Apparently Obama keeps stepping in it...and it doesn't smell good.

At a recent fund raiser in San Francisco, Obama had this to day about folks in Pennsylvania...

“You go into these small towns in Pennsylvania and, like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing’s replaced them,” Obama said. “And they fell through the Clinton Administration, and the Bush Administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not. And it’s not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren’t like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.”

Wow Barack....If only the economy were better we wouldn't need to cling to our guns or religion...what an amazing insight.

Is this guy for real?

This info is from a story linked here...
http://michellemalkin.com/2008/04/11/snob-ama-disses-pro-gun-religious-anti-illegal-immigration-activists-in-penn/

MrLogan
04-11-2008, 2:17 PM
Like I said in the other thread in off-topic: What an assgoblin. :mad:

pullnshoot25
04-11-2008, 2:18 PM
Bastard.

RedDawn
04-11-2008, 2:21 PM
Highly insightful...:rolleyes:

What's he going to say next, terrorists are jealous at our "prosperity," if we made them American citizens they'll give up their "evil ways?"

mymonkeyman
04-11-2008, 2:25 PM
This is good, his real beliefs are slipping through the carefully groomed exterior. This is what we need to stop him.

tombinghamthegreat
04-11-2008, 2:33 PM
Hillary is smart enough to keep quiet about her gun ban plan but Obama thankfully for us is stupid enough to ***** about it. Wants to take my gun, what from my cold dead hands?

FreedomIsNotFree
04-11-2008, 2:35 PM
This is good, his real beliefs are slipping through the carefully groomed exterior. This is what we need to stop him.


I agree. The way I see it, there is no chance of Hillary winning the nomination by delegate count alone. The only way she gets the nomination is for the "Super" delegates to work out some deal behind closed doors in some smoke filled room.

If that happens, the Democrats will alienate most of the Obama supporters because they will view the maneuver as shady and undemocratic.

So, either we face Obama with all of this current baggage, ie Rev. Wright and other asinine comments such as the one included in this thread, or we face a damaged Hillary that wont have the full support of the Democrat base.

The only person that can beat McCain is McCain himself.

emc002
04-11-2008, 2:39 PM
:dupe: Beat you by almost 30 minutes!! :p

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=95984

grywlfbg
04-11-2008, 3:06 PM
Highly insightful...:rolleyes:

What's he going to say next, terrorists are jealous at our "prosperity," if we made them American citizens they'll give up their "evil ways?"

Careful, that's a neo-con load of BS (oh sorry, they hate us for our "freedom" :rolleyes:). The Dems say enough stupid things on their own w/o being blamed for right-wing stupid things ;)

JohnJW
04-11-2008, 3:45 PM
Apparently Obama keeps stepping in it...and it doesn't smell good.

At a recent fund raiser in San Francisco, Obama had this to day about folks in Pennsylvania...

“You go into these small towns in Pennsylvania and, like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing’s replaced them,” Obama said. “And they fell through the Clinton Administration, and the Bush Administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not. And it’s not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren’t like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.”

Wow Barack....If only the economy were better we wouldn't need to cling to our guns or religion...what an amazing insight.

Is this guy for real?

This info is from a story linked here...
http://michellemalkin.com/2008/04/11/snob-ama-disses-pro-gun-religious-anti-illegal-immigration-activists-in-penn/


Okay, time to be the human porcupine again with all the arrows that will sure to fly this way after my comment. . .

Obama's comment may not be that far from the truth. If my job gets shipped overseas and I'm living in rural America I'll probably spend my time hunting and socializing at the church while cursing foreign competitions. Look around, there are already plenty of frustrating discussions on guns, religion, and immigration.

I am actually rooting for Obama to win the primary. The nastiness of the Clinton campaign is bringing back all the fond memories of why I dislike the Clintons. I will sleep a lot better in a contest between McCain and Obama.

bulgron
04-11-2008, 4:59 PM
I am actually rooting for Obama to win the primary. The nastiness of the Clinton campaign is bringing back all the fond memories of why I dislike the Clintons. I will sleep a lot better in a contest between McCain and Obama.

I'm actually rooting for Clinton to pull a super-delegate maneuver such that she takes the nomination away from Obama. The resulting civil war amongst the Democratic faithful would be both highly entertaining and guarantee a McCain victory.

FreedomIsNotFree
04-11-2008, 5:35 PM
Okay, time to be the human porcupine again with all the arrows that will sure to fly this way after my comment. . .

Obama's comment may not be that far from the truth. If my job gets shipped overseas and I'm living in rural America I'll probably spend my time hunting and socializing at the church while cursing foreign competitions. Look around, there are already plenty of frustrating discussions on guns, religion, and immigration.

I am actually rooting for Obama to win the primary. The nastiness of the Clinton campaign is bringing back all the fond memories of why I dislike the Clintons. I will sleep a lot better in a contest between McCain and Obama.

I believe Obama's comments are far from the truth. Are you saying you would become a gun owner or start attending church because the economy isn't doing well? Sounds to me like Obama has no clue why most of us own firearms.

dustoff31
04-11-2008, 5:41 PM
Obama's comment may not be that far from the truth. If my job gets shipped overseas and I'm living in rural America I'll probably spend my time hunting and socializing at the church while cursing foreign competitions.

I think most of us would just go look for a new job.

He was making these remarks at a fundraiser in SF. When he gets to the fundraiser in PA, then he'll be talking about the "homo loving, pro-illegal, liberal elitists out in SF want blah, blah, blah.." He can do this... cause he's for change.

Hans Gruber
04-11-2008, 5:59 PM
This is the guy that voted for a law that prohibits the authorities from grabbing your guns during times of emergency (SA4615 - Prohibition On Confiscation Of Firearms). He's not as bad as you'd think.

As for his comments, he could have certainly chosen his words more carefully. From reading it it looks like he was trying to explain two things.

On one hand he was saying that during hard times, people fall back on their tradition. In the case of the more rural population, that can be faith and shooting sports. Remember where he gave this speech, San Francisco. He was trying to foster some understanding there I think.

On the other hand I think he was trying to express that when things are bad, people, all people, tend to lash out at the easiest targets. Whether their anger is justified or not.

Seems like something that will only get him crucified by people who would never vote for him in the first place anyway.

yallknowho
04-11-2008, 6:00 PM
wow. I wonder why's he clinging to politics?

CombatMP
04-11-2008, 6:20 PM
It does not matter what Obama or Hillary says. I voted for McCain already and if I'm given a chance to vote again, I'll vote for McCain again, again and again.

dfletcher
04-11-2008, 6:39 PM
Okay, time to be the human porcupine again with all the arrows that will sure to fly this way after my comment. . .

Obama's comment may not be that far from the truth. If my job gets shipped overseas and I'm living in rural America I'll probably spend my time hunting and socializing at the church while cursing foreign competitions. Look around, there are already plenty of frustrating discussions on guns, religion, and immigration.

I am actually rooting for Obama to win the primary. The nastiness of the Clinton campaign is bringing back all the fond memories of why I dislike the Clintons. I will sleep a lot better in a contest between McCain and Obama.

Sorry, I don't think you quite (yet?) earned the arrows on that one. ;)

He's not talking about hunting or going to church as social pastimes, he's using those activities as a metaphor to describe in a derogatory fashion folks he views as backward thinking, not only unfortunate but out of step with the times. People don't "cling" to a gun when hunting or going to church per se. And regarding religion, we've always had our Father Coughlins and Reverend Peales, nothing's changed.

Notice he speaks of "anti - immigrant" sentiment? Well, most people I know are not anti - immigrant, but they are anti illegal immigrant. It's no mistake that he used that terminology, so far as he's concerned there is no difference.

And it serves to paint with the same broad brush anyone who disagrees with him as being a harsh, self centered Neanderthal.

However, I want Ms Clinton to win Pennsylvania as I believe it will prolong Democratic difficulties. Obama winning will give him a strong hold on the nomination. If Clinton wins I think her back room dealings with the Super D's will pay off.

bg
04-11-2008, 7:23 PM
I made it my sig on almost every site I go to. The smug SOB...

ColdSteel
04-11-2008, 7:32 PM
Barack Hussein Obama.... Has NO chance.
He's just a socialist, America hating puke. Those are hardly the qualifications for the highest office in the land.

FreedomIsNotFree
04-11-2008, 7:36 PM
This is the guy that voted for a law that prohibits the authorities from grabbing your guns during times of emergency (SA4615 - Prohibition On Confiscation Of Firearms). He's not as bad as you'd think.

As for his comments, he could have certainly chosen his words more carefully. From reading it it looks like he was trying to explain two things.

On one hand he was saying that during hard times, people fall back on their tradition. In the case of the more rural population, that can be faith and shooting sports. Remember where he gave this speech, San Francisco. He was trying to foster some understanding there I think.

On the other hand I think he was trying to express that when things are bad, people, all people, tend to lash out at the easiest targets. Whether their anger is justified or not.

Seems like something that will only get him crucified by people who would never vote for him in the first place anyway.

He's not as bad as we think huh?

"I am not in favor of concealed weapons," Obama said. "I think that creates a potential atmosphere where more innocent people could (get shot during) altercations."

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/news/s_560181.html

Granted, most of us in CA dont know what its like to legally CCW, but I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that for those that are licensed to CCW, Obama is as bad as we think he is...

mecam
04-11-2008, 8:11 PM
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2008/04/11/politics/p183739D32.DTL

Fate
04-11-2008, 9:12 PM
Barack Hussein Obama.... Has NO chance.
He's just a socialist, America hating puke. Those are hardly the qualifications for the highest office in the land. I dunno. Worked for Bill Clinton.

Solidsnake87
04-12-2008, 12:06 AM
Frickin commie! :mad:

tombinghamthegreat
04-12-2008, 1:36 AM
He's not as bad as we think huh?

Obama is as bad as we think he is...

He is alot worse than what we think he is and yet most of the US voters are blind to his real intentions. If he got his way, he would be so extreme even the europeans would say he is going to far.

DesertDawg
04-12-2008, 4:50 AM
I hope that the trash talk, the arguing, the heated rhetoric, the confusion over delegates and super-delegates, the nullification of at least the 2 states, the slander, the bickering, the name-calling, the offensive words followed by countless statements and apologies, more video tapes of Pastor Wright, more on Bosnia snipers, and more of EVERYTHING continues, all the way up to the Democrat National Convention! Let's have some more dimpled and/or dangling chad, voter fraud charges, more stepping in fecal matter, more Michelle Obama, more Bill Clinton....MORE, MORE, MORE!!!!! I want to see Howard Dean do another "Dean Scream" when he has a melt-down!

It's almost like a never-ending sit-com, reality TV, and American Idol....all wrapped up into one! I'll just sit her and watch while clinging to my guns and a Bible while laughing my rear-side off!

I told a friend that, if Obama or Hillary had run against Ronald Reagan, every time they "miss-spoke" or said something totally off-the-wall, Reagan would have just shaken his head and say, "Well, there you go AGAIN!"

halifax
04-12-2008, 5:40 AM
This is the guy that voted for a law that prohibits the authorities from grabbing your guns during times of emergency (SA4615 - Prohibition On Confiscation Of Firearms). He's not as bad as you'd think.

As for his comments, he could have certainly chosen his words more carefully. From reading it it looks like he was trying to explain two things.

On one hand he was saying that during hard times, people fall back on their tradition. In the case of the more rural population, that can be faith and shooting sports. Remember where he gave this speech, San Francisco. He was trying to foster some understanding there I think.

On the other hand I think he was trying to express that when things are bad, people, all people, tend to lash out at the easiest targets. Whether their anger is justified or not.

Seems like something that will only get him crucified by people who would never vote for him in the first place anyway.

If you don't have firearms to begin with, what good is this law?

3GunFunShooter
04-12-2008, 7:33 AM
Before I die, I just want to vote for someone instead of against someone.

savageevo
04-12-2008, 7:35 AM
Obama is real flopper. He says one thing and when he says something stupid and then gets his people to fix his problems. Why would anybody want a president that has a spiritual consular that promotes hate.

Anonymous Coward
04-12-2008, 8:12 AM
At least out of context the statement seems to be very easy to misread.

How about this reading? If you realize your biggest problem is economic, should you use religion, guns, immigration and free trade as issues deciding your vote?

I can see his frustration because in his mind he's trying to help those guys economically, but he can't reach them because they're single issue voters.

IMO the quasi 2 party system doesn't help to represent opinions like pro personal liberties (and I don't mean "pick your liberties") and a moderate to free economy.

KenpoProfessor
04-12-2008, 8:32 AM
Before I die, I just want to vote for someone instead of against someone.


A profound statement indeed, something the politicians don't understand. Good words, and I'm sure somebody will have them in their sig. sometime soon. :D

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

JohnJW
04-12-2008, 9:38 AM
At least out of context the statement seems to be very easy to misread.

How about this reading? If you realize your biggest problem is economic, should you use religion, guns, immigration and free trade as issues deciding your vote?

I can see his frustration because in his mind he's trying to help those guys economically, but he can't reach them because they're single issue voters.

IMO the quasi 2 party system doesn't help to represent opinions like pro personal liberties (and I don't mean "pick your liberties") and a moderate to free economy.


I support McCain and he has certainly made some comments that if taken out of context will fall in the same category as Obama's. I don’t think his remarks are that far from the truth. There are very few things people get passionately involved in besides jobs, religion, and guns. I am pretty upset over the encroachment on our secular government, the erosion on our gun rights, and the off shoring of jobs into authoritarian countries. I don't think I am bitter, but occasionally the my feelings do tilt toward anger.

SuperSet
04-12-2008, 10:49 AM
I like the guy but can see how his speech could have been easily interpreted as elitist. Can you imagine Kerry saying the same thing? Unfortunately, the speech may hurt his campaign at a time when Pennsylvania is close and McCain is surging.

Exposed
04-12-2008, 11:14 AM
Highly insightful...:rolleyes:

What's he going to say next, terrorists are jealous at our "prosperity," if we made them American citizens they'll give up their "evil ways?"

Isnt that somewhat along the lines of Bushes point of view?

Exposed
04-12-2008, 11:26 AM
I half agree with him. I agree that many people in middle America are frusterated with the fact that they have had a poor economy and almost no job opportunities in a very long time. I believe they are a bit bitter at thier financial insecurity (I know when I am having financial issues I get pissed off very fast and Im always in a bad mood) however, I do not believe a strong faith and love of arms is a result of that. I do not believe one has anything to do with the other. I make a decent living and live in the richest state in the U.S. and I have a very strong faith in my Creator as well as a passion for my guns. I think if he would have said the first part and not the second part, it might have been taken as a valid point and good insight and not a condemnation of people with faith and love of guns as it was taken.

Exposed
04-12-2008, 11:29 AM
No, I think Bush wants to kill all the terrorists, but he does seem to believe that if the nations that are hotbeds of terrorism can be converted to democracy, then it will squelch the flame.

Democracy does not equal being an American citizen.

But it does have a "Do it our way" approch, and our way is the way of America and our citizens.

Pvt. Cowboy
04-12-2008, 11:31 AM
Barack Obama is just showing how amateurish he is as a politician, which many of his supporters find endearing because it shows how he's an outsider that's not afraid to speak his mind without the use of a carefully prepared script.

Well, the thing is that he only makes these characteristic outbursts when he deviates from his carefully prepared scripts. What amazes me is how rotten he is off the cuff in contrast to how well he does when he's on his soapbox in an orchestrated setting.

I look at him and can really tell that he was working behind the counter of a Baskin-Robbins 31 Flavors just 20 years ago. He's only been a politician for eight years, and more than half of that time was at the statehouse level. He's gone from ice cream serving college student with a law degree to state capitol weasel to running for President from his US Senate seat in about the same time it takes a teenager to get their high school diploma.

He's got an amateurish team of handlers but he's blessed with a polarizing and widely disliked opponent with tons of baggage in the Democratic party's nomination race. There is just no way that Hillary Clinton wins this race if she gets the nomination.

If Senator Obama makes it to the White House, and I certainly believe that he could, I'm expecting a second round of the Jimmy Carter administration: Radically left, relatively honest, well-meaning, totally inept, and thoroughly ridiculous. Cabinet positions staffed by a cast of lunatics who don't really even understand what the job is.

I just cannot believe that all the choices for President are so awful.

Exposed
04-12-2008, 11:43 AM
RON PAUL FOR PRESIDENT!

:party:

CCWFacts
04-12-2008, 12:57 PM
He made the kind of foot-in-mouth mistake that can snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. I think it's also revealing his true feelings, which go something like, "The federal government wants to take control of your life and stop you from going to church. Obviously we need to disarm you first."

It's funny and yet cool to hear Hillary supporting the 2A for once:

I was raised with Midwestern values and an unshakable faith in America and its policies. Now, Americans who believe in the Second Amendment believe it's a matter of constitutional right. Americans who believe in God believe it's a matter of personal faith.

That's right Hillary!

MrTuffPaws
04-12-2008, 4:20 PM
I was raised with Midwestern values and an unshakable faith in America and its policies. Now, Americans who believe in the Second Amendment believe it's a matter of constitutional right. Americans who believe in God believe it's a matter of personal faith.

Anyone that accepts the governmental policies of the US without question should be flogged. IMO ;)

otteray
04-12-2008, 5:11 PM
I told a friend that, if Obama or Hillary had run against Ronald Reagan, every time they "miss-spoke" or said something totally off-the-wall, Reagan would have just shaken his head and say, "Well, there you go AGAIN!"

Short clip of Reagan's remark to Carter:
http://www.wfu.edu/~louden/Political%20Communication/PresDebateClips/PBSReagan1.rm

CCWFacts
04-12-2008, 5:32 PM
I think that Obama is the one who is clinging to his guns. How often do I go around with a dozen heavily armed bodyguards? Never. I don't feel a need for that many armed people around me. How often does Obama go around with a dozen armed guards? All the time. He's obviously clinging to this "guns" thing. He should let it go and tell the Secret Service that he wants them to switch to pepper spray. And if he's attacked he should just comply with whatever the criminal wants, because that's the safest thing to do, right?

DigglerD
04-12-2008, 6:13 PM
So, either we face Obama with all of this current baggage, ie Rev. Wright and other asinine comments such as the one included in this thread, or we face a damaged Hillary that wont have the full support of the Democrat base.

I don't know what to say about the latest thing... but this statement here just has me scratching my head?

All what baggage?

(1) Rev. Wright got caught saying something bad in a 30 sec clip for 30 years of service (if I recorded everything you said for 30 years could you defend every second?). Further, it was some guy (not Obama) that made the comments.

(2) "other asinine comments" stated plural with there only being the one comment made yesterday.

What else?

When you show a clear bias by making things bigger than they are, people are less likely to hear what you have to say... as such, you are never going to convince anyone to agree with you that didn't already. It's kinda like watching Fox, the station preaches to the choir all day, anyone who wants to get the strait scoop changed the channel long ago.

McCain is weak too... I just want Ron P. back.

dfletcher
04-12-2008, 6:41 PM
I think his explanation is interesting. He said that there was perhaps a better way for him to say what he said. Which I take to mean he really doesn't look down on the God & gun crowd, the small town blue collar working folks who are OK with legal immigration, but against illegal immigration. I'm sure most of us have heard the tape - do you think he mis-spoke and does saying this in San Fran to the wine & brie crowd make the statement more offensive?

I live a few blocks away from where he was visiting. No one knew for certain who was visiting, but so many SFPD around made obvious something was going on. I think it's interesting these SF visits are (usually)kept very low key.

CCWFacts
04-12-2008, 7:12 PM
Here's a picture tour of Obama's visit to "billionaires' row" (http://www.zombietime.com/obama_visits_billionaires_row/).

Steyr_223
04-12-2008, 7:27 PM
This will just bounce off the man of steel!

:)

http://obama.senate.gov/img/superman.jpg

FreedomIsNotFree
04-12-2008, 8:19 PM
I don't know what to say about the latest thing... but this statement here just has me scratching my head?

All what baggage?

(1) Rev. Wright got caught saying something bad in a 30 sec clip for 30 years of service (if I recorded everything you said for 30 years could you defend every second?). Further, it was some guy (not Obama) that made the comments.

(2) "other asinine comments" stated plural with there only being the one comment made yesterday.

What else?

When you show a clear bias by making things bigger than they are, people are less likely to hear what you have to say... as such, you are never going to convince anyone to agree with you that didn't already. It's kinda like watching Fox, the station preaches to the choir all day, anyone who wants to get the strait scoop changed the channel long ago.

McCain is weak too... I just want Ron P. back.

If you haven't noticed the various asinine comments made by Obama then you obviously aren't paying attention. You dismiss the Rev. Do Wrong(Wright's) comments as if they did not negatively impact how many people view Obama when even Obama and his surrogates acknowledge it hurt him.

The only thing you are correct on is, yes, I am biased against Obama...I am biased against anyone that views guns/gun owners as he does...

For the record, I voted for RP in the primary. I would have like nothing more than for RP to have touched a nerve in the vast majority of Americans and for that support to have swept him into the White House. Unfortunately, that aint happening.

troyus
04-12-2008, 9:16 PM
Read the quote in context. This isn't going to effect anything.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/04/12/ST2008041200232.html


Seriously, this guy is so good at public speaking I wonder if he plans out his mistakes in advance.

dwtt
04-12-2008, 9:23 PM
I'm rooting for Obama. I think McCain will have a better chance of winning against Obama than against Clinton.

mymonkeyman
04-12-2008, 10:19 PM
I'm rooting for Obama. I think McCain will have a better chance of winning against Obama than against Clinton.

All the polls disagree.

DigglerD
04-12-2008, 10:32 PM
If you haven't noticed the various asinine comments made by Obama then you obviously aren't paying attention.

Again, I say... huh?

I asked you for the "various" asinine comments and your response is... "there are various asinine comments" saying it's so doesn't make it so. I still ask you sir:

All what baggage?
What else?
Hint: The answer shouldn't be "various asinine comments".

doughboy334
04-13-2008, 12:12 AM
I'm rooting for Obama. I think McCain will have a better chance of winning against Obama than against Clinton.

My choice for President goes McCain>Obama>Clinton.

I voted for Ron Paul in February, too bad most people didn't.

shark92651
04-13-2008, 11:05 AM
Again, I say... huh?

I asked you for the "various" asinine comments and your response is... "there are various asinine comments" saying it's so doesn't make it so. I still ask you sir:

Well the one that is the topic of this thread, for example. And what about the "typical white person" comment? I'll admit that all politicians have their share of gaffes, but to pretend that Obama has not made any is a bit overly defensive, borderline "fan boy", actually. The guys is inexperienced and it shows in some of his comments. I don't think it is anything to crucify the guy over, but I think the honeymoon with this guy is going to be over soon.

DigglerD
04-13-2008, 4:41 PM
Well the one that is the topic of this thread, for example. And what about the "typical white person" comment? I'll admit that all politicians have their share of gaffes, but to pretend that Obama has not made any is a bit overly defensive, borderline "fan boy", actually. The guys is inexperienced and it shows in some of his comments. I don't think it is anything to crucify the guy over, but I think the honeymoon with this guy is going to be over soon.

Overly defensive? "fan boy"??? Are you serious?

(1) I already conceded the statement this thread is about is one, I then asked for more and the answer was a repeat of the initial assertion being "various asinine comments". You have now provided a second. I would still say this falls short of "various" but I guess that's all subjective.

If you want "various asinine comments", how about conflating Iran and Iraq? What about confusing the Sunni with the Shia? Random recollections or Bosnian sniper fire anyone? How about decision making at 3am, do any of them have 3am decision making experience and what is so significant about 3am anyway? The strait talk express that has several lobbyist on staff? What about the in the trenches "boot-strapper" that can relate to us but is so desperately trying to hide her $100M+ income? What about "I'm against torture... no, now I'm for it".

Want more? When I say "various", I actually mean it in a real sense as opposed to the inflammatory assertion above.

(2) Experience in this election is a big red herring. McCain was a solider and a legislator, Hilary was a wife and a legislator, Obama was a local organizer and legislator. None of these former roles have anything to do with the executive... they may as well twiddled sticks and called that experience.

If you want relevant experience, then you should have voted for Romney or Richardson as they are the only ones who have experience in an actual executive position.

shark92651
04-13-2008, 5:41 PM
Overly defensive? "fan boy"??? Are you serious?

(1) I already conceded the statement this thread is about is one, I then asked for more and the answer was a repeat of the initial assertion being "various asinine comments". You have now provided a second. I would still say this falls short of "various" but I guess that's all subjective.

If you want "various asinine comments", how about conflating Iran and Iraq? What about confusing the Sunni with the Shia? Random recollections or Bosnian sniper fire anyone? How about decision making at 3am, do any of them have 3am decision making experience and what is so significant about 3am anyway? The strait talk express that has several lobbyist on staff? What about the in the trenches "boot-strapper" that can relate to us but is so desperately trying to hide her $100M+ income? What about "I'm against torture... no, now I'm for it".

Want more? When I say "various", I actually mean it in a real sense as opposed to the inflammatory assertion above.

(2) Experience in this election is a big red herring. McCain was a solider and a legislator, Hilary was a wife and a legislator, Obama was a local organizer and legislator. None of these former roles have anything to do with the executive... they may as well twiddled sticks and called that experience.

If you want relevant experience, then you should have voted for Romney or Richardson as they are the only ones who have experience in an actual executive position.


When did this turn into a McCain vs Obama thread? How do you know who I even support in this election. Chill out - you asked for some asinine comments made by Obama and I pointed another one out for you. I'm not even the one you originally directed the request too so I'm not sure why you are getting so upset. I personally can't see how anybody on a gun forum can get excited about any of the candidates, especially with some of the gun-grabbing comments he has made in the past - "ban all semi-auto firearms" for one. Come to think of it, there is another asinine comment for you. How many are you looking for?

dfletcher
04-13-2008, 5:45 PM
Read the quote in context. This isn't going to effect anything.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/04/12/ST2008041200232.html


Seriously, this guy is so good at public speaking I wonder if he plans out his mistakes in advance.

Don't know how long this link will be up:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20080412/pl_politico/9561;_ylt=AogxknfkEYAN7jsQgY9QpyJh24cA

DigglerD
04-13-2008, 8:52 PM
When did this turn into a McCain vs Obama thread? How do you know who I even support in this election. Chill out - you asked for some asinine comments made by Obama and I pointed another one out for you. I'm not even the one you originally directed the request too so I'm not sure why you are getting so upset. I personally can't see how anybody on a gun forum can get excited about any of the candidates, especially with some of the gun-grabbing comments he has made in the past - "ban all semi-auto firearms" for one. Come to think of it, there is another asinine comment for you. How many are you looking for?

It's not a McCain v. Obama thing (hence the Hilary references as well). My only point was the post that started this thread was had a good point about the "god and guns" content but became imflammatory and not really based in reality when it went on to talk about numerous asinine comments that noboby can even point to.

I'm am chill... I just don't like being called names like "fan boy" for pointing out clear flaws in logic.

But yes, you are correct, guns are not and will not become a point of any salience in any near term election I can think of.

FreedomIsNotFree
04-13-2008, 9:13 PM
The reason I didn't take the time to post many of the asinine comments/stances Obama has made/taken is because it really isn't worth my time to do your research for you. Either you are aware of them and are playing ignorant or you simply haven't looked for yourself and have already come to the conclusion that they dont exist.

The flaw in logic is yours for speaking before you do the research....just go to Google...type in "obama mistakes" and see what you come up with....the list is long and distinguished.

DigglerD
04-13-2008, 9:21 PM
The reason I didn't take the time to post many of the asinine comments/stances Obama has made/taken is because it really isn't worth my time to do your research for you.

FAIL

You are essentially saying anything you say (no matter how absurd and unfounded it may be) is true until some other person does research to prove it false.

More backwards and flawwed logic... you made claim without warrant aka an assertion. It is not my obligation to dis-prove your assertion, rather it is yours to provide some evidence that your claim without warrant has validity. It is your duty to do the research to back up your claims.

What more can I do to prove my point? I have already asked for these numerous comments, that you've failed to provide. How do I prove what's not there to not be there more so than stating it's not there?

dfletcher
04-13-2008, 9:31 PM
Instead of his "mis - statements" I think we're all quite well served looking at the position he takes regarding guns, taxes, immigration, Iraq, health care and such. I can't think of any position he has that I support - maybe there's one out there but I haven't found it.

FreedomIsNotFree
04-13-2008, 9:38 PM
FAIL

You are essentially saying anything you say (no matter how absurd and unfounded it may be) is true until some other person does research to prove it false.

More backwards and flawwed logic... you made claim without warrant aka an assertion. It is not my obligation to dis-prove your assertion, rather it is yours to provide some evidence that your claim without warrant has validity. It is your duty to do the research to back up your claims.

What more can I do to prove my point? I have already asked for these numerous comments, that you've failed to provide. How do I prove what's not there to not be there more so than stating it's not there?

I dont really care what you think. This was not a debate...this is not a court of law...you are not a teacher giving me a grade...get over yourself. I have ZERO desire to sway your opinion one way or the other. Furthermore, asinine comments are subjective...I dont need to get into a back and forth with you about what is asinine or not. From my perspective Obama has made many asinine comments or has taken asinine stances on a number of different issues.....are you now going to tell me I cant have my opinion unless you approve...again, get over yourself.

If you believe the only asinine comment/stance Obama has made/taken was in regards to this one issue...fine...move along.

DigglerD
04-13-2008, 9:40 PM
Instead of his "mis - statements" I think we're all quite well served looking at the position he takes regarding guns, taxes, immigration, Iraq, health care and such. I can't think of any position he has that I support - maybe there's one out there but I haven't found it.

I won't argue that...

I just hate when the political season is in and people feel the need to embelish. Isn't there enough on the stated issues without having to play the games and pointing to things that don't exist?

I dont really care what you think. This was not a debate...this is not a court of law...you are not a teacher giving me a grade...get over yourself. I have ZERO desire to sway your opinion one way or the other.

Either you are aware of them and are playing ignorant or you simply haven't looked for yourself and have already come to the conclusion that they dont exist.

Who's already come to a conclusiion now?

Even worse... if I'm "playing" ignorant when I don't research your blind assertions, then what is it called when you are not willing to research, provide evidence or do anything to prove your own?

FreedomIsNotFree
04-13-2008, 9:51 PM
HAHA...you are laughs....why dont you go look in the mirror and argue with yourself? I gave my opinion...I didn't assert anything.

FlyingPen
04-14-2008, 12:21 AM
I look at him and can really tell that he was working behind the counter of a Baskin-Robbins 31 Flavors just 20 years ago.

There's a huge list of heroes throughout history that were doing humble or criminal things 20, even 10, even 5 years before they achieved historical greatness.

troyus
04-14-2008, 3:54 PM
Don't know how long this link will be up:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20080412/pl_politico/9561;_ylt=AogxknfkEYAN7jsQgY9QpyJh24cA

Yeah... good read... I just don't think it's enough to save Hilldog. And there's plenty of time between now and the general election for Obama to make nice with the gun/religion group.

RRangel
04-14-2008, 4:12 PM
Yeah... good read... I just don't think it's enough to save Hilldog. And there's plenty of time between now and the general election for Obama to make nice with the gun/religion group.

If by "gun/religion" group you mean those who are going to vote for McCain whether they like him or not, I say Barrack never had a chance. This is beside the fact that he couldn't alienate them more than he has. Everyone he surrounds himself with is far to the left, and so is he. It's just that he stands to gain more the longer he can prevent many people from realizing it.

He's done a good job of coming into this process as an unknown quantity to most Americans, and slowly but surely he is becoming a known quantity, much like Hillary Clinton. The closer we get to November the more this is true. He is actually opposed to concealed carry. Change, means handing them all in.

Hans Gruber
04-14-2008, 5:18 PM
He is actually opposed to concealed carry. Change,
means handing them all in.

He's actually come out and stated that he believes that the 2nd amendment is an individual right. As far as concealed carry, I don't believe that there is the political will on either side to carry any meaningful anti-gun legislation through on the national level anyway.

Essentially I'm not worried about him grabbing guns. I'm more worried about McCain having another "senior moment" at the wrong time, or carrying on the economic status quo.

For the record, he never said that guns/religion were a bad thing. He just conflated one too many thoughts into one sentence :)

RRangel
04-14-2008, 5:30 PM
He's actually come out and stated that he believes that the 2nd amendment is an individual right. As far as concealed carry, I don't believe that there is the political will on either side to carry any meaningful anti-gun legislation through on the national level anyway.

Essentially I'm not worried about him grabbing guns. I'm more worried about McCain having another "senior moment" at the wrong time, or carrying on the economic status quo.

For the record, he never said that guns/religion were a bad thing. He just conflated one too many thoughts into one sentence :)

Hillary Clinton has also stated that she is for the Second Amendment. That doesn't make it so. You can keep dreaming if it makes you feel better. ;)

There's no turning back for Barrack now, as his views are exposed for all of America to see.

dfletcher
04-14-2008, 5:53 PM
He's actually come out and stated that he believes that the 2nd amendment is an individual right. As far as concealed carry, I don't believe that there is the political will on either side to carry any meaningful anti-gun legislation through on the national level anyway.

Essentially I'm not worried about him grabbing guns. I'm more worried about McCain having another "senior moment" at the wrong time, or carrying on the economic status quo.

For the record, he never said that guns/religion were a bad thing. He just conflated one too many thoughts into one sentence :)

Where has he said that?

I'm not worried about him grabbing guns either. I have no doubt, based on his record and previous statements that he is anti - gun and will attempt further restictions. The AW ban, no gun store within 5 miles of a school, no right to carry, banning semi autos. It is one of the unfortunate unintended consequences of this event that he and Senator Clinton, being both strongly anti - gun, are able to take the podium and profess their affinity for the 2nd Amendment.

Pvt. Cowboy
04-14-2008, 7:28 PM
There's a huge list of heroes throughout history that were doing humble or criminal things 20, even 10, even 5 years before they achieved historical greatness.

I don't doubt it, but I don't think it's worn off on Sen. Obama.

Last January the media asked all the candidates what was the toughest job they ever had.

Hillary brought up that old Alaskan fish cannery story, John McCain mentioned his job of keeping the spirits of his fellow POWs up while he was stuck inside a concrete block for eight years, and Barack Obama said that his toughest job was working at Baskin-Robbins and how it was just so awful that he ate too much free ice cream.

Fred Thompson gave a fine answer in saying that he's had many tough jobs, but he wouldn't trade those experiences for anything because it made him a more resolute and resilient adult.

I'm just saying that Barack Obama belongs in the state house of Illinois at best. I don't think he understands a God blessed thing about real people without privilege even though pretending he does is pretty much his entire political schtick.

DigglerD
04-14-2008, 9:02 PM
For the record, he never said that guns/religion were a bad thing. He just conflated one too many thoughts into one sentence :)

Let us not forget he's been going to church for decades so yes, I'd have to think it was more an issue of improper wording than anything else.

Does that mean he's for guns? No, of course not. However, why don't we ask those that voted for Bush twice, what it's like voting on a single issue... you tend to get baggage, it's the problem that comes with a two party system.

I'm just saying that Barack Obama belongs in the state house of Illinois at best. I don't think he understands a God blessed thing about real people without privilege even though pretending he does is pretty much his entire political schtick.

Very true... a black kid, in Illinois, in the 60's with one parent. I'm sure he knows nothing of hardship. Even when he returned to the Chicago slums to work in the community. Hardship is something he simply can't grasp. This when there were no real prospects for him ever being a national level politician.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabrini-Green#How_problems_developed

You want to live there?

FreedomIsNotFree
04-14-2008, 10:18 PM
Very true... a black kid, in Illinois, in the 60's with one parent. I'm sure he knows nothing of hardship. Even when he returned to the Chicago slums to work in the community. Hardship is something he simply can't grasp. This when there were no real prospects for him ever being a national level politician.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabrini-Green#How_problems_developed

You want to live there?

Is this some kind of joke? Obama didn't grow up in Illinois...he grew up in Hawaii and attended a private school for the privileged. If you knew anything about the public school system in Hawaii you would understand how horrible it is for the common, everyday Hawaiian....not so for Obama...and more power to him for getting a great education, but for you to post a link to Cabrini Green like that is where Obama grew up is ridiculous...absolutely asinine.

Obama was born on August 4, 1961 in Honolulu, Hawaii to Barack Hussein Obama, Sr., of Nyangoma-Kogelo, Siaya District, Kenya, and Ann Dunham, of Wichita, Kansas.[2] His parents met while both were attending the University of Hawaii at Manoa, where his father was enrolled as a foreign student.[3] They separated when he was two years old and later divorced.[4] After her divorce, Dunham married Lolo Soetoro, and the family moved to Soetoro's home country of Indonesia in 1967, where Obama attended local schools in Jakarta until he was ten years old.[2] He then returned to Honolulu to live with his mother's family while attending Punahou School from the fifth grade until his graduation in 1979.[5] Following high school, Obama moved to Los Angeles, where he studied at Occidental College for two years.[6] He then transferred to Columbia University in New York City, where he majored in political science with a specialization in international relations.[7]

Obama received his college degree from Columbia University in 1983, then worked at Business International Corporation and New York Public Interest Research Group before moving to Chicago in 1985 to take a job as a community organizer.[8] He entered Harvard Law School in 1988.[9] In 1990, The New York Times reported his election as the first black president of the Harvard Law Review.[10] Obama completed his law degree with honors in 1991, then returned to Chicago where he headed a voter registration drive and began writing his first book, Dreams from My Father, a memoir published in 1995.[11][12]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama


You really are in love with this guy aren't you?

dustoff31
04-14-2008, 10:28 PM
FIF,

Don't try to confuse him with the facts. His mind is made up.

FreedomIsNotFree
04-14-2008, 10:32 PM
FIF,

Don't try to confuse him with the facts. His mind is made up.

Oh, I'm not trying to change his mind or convince him of anything....I am, however, going to keep telling it like it is and not allow some revisionist historian to distort the truth(lie). And this is the same guy that, earlier in the thread, tried to chastise me about making claims that aren't supported by the facts...haha...laughable.

dustoff31
04-14-2008, 10:35 PM
Sure. I think you're just bitter. ;)

FreedomIsNotFree
04-14-2008, 11:18 PM
Sure. I think you're just bitter. ;)

HAHA!! touche...

CALI-gula
04-14-2008, 11:50 PM
The only person that can beat McCain is McCain himself.

You're kidding right? Unfortunately, McCain has done too much to already beat himself, and a large number of Republicans will vote Obama, and few if any Democrats will swing-vote to MCain even when some did vote for G.W. Bush; and since it will end up being Obama, the Hillary/Obama argument is pointless. If Hillary is the candidate, McCain will win. You really need to hear how the rest of the country perceives these 3. I laughed when everyone in CA thought Gore and Kerry were shoe-ins, when I fully knew the attitudes of the rest of the country which Californians simply ignored out of a "I CAN'T HEAR YOU... LA LA LA LA LA!!! " with fingers in their ears attitude.

First, I'll be voting for McCain - reluctantly. I voted for Bush both prior terms. Voted for Ron Paul in the primaries (but won't in the major fall election). Voted for Ross Perot over Bush and Clinton. Voted for Bush over Dukakis. Got midwestern conservative Democrat parents to vote for Ronald Reagan - twice.

And in all cases since Carter, even when I voted for Perot, I predicted who would win. Unfortunately, Obama has this thing down across multiple demographics, even with those who previously voted for our recent rendition of Bush.

I hate to admit it, but it's true. Obama is the next president. :mad:

And I hate that. I wish we had a better Republican choice - I wish Ron Paul had appealed to people on a more general level, rather than scaring them off with his incredible think-tank creativity that most Joe-six-packs couldn't grasp; Ron Paul SHOULD be the next president, and IS the leader this country needs and will need again 4 years from now.

He just wasn't pretty enough on camera or young enough to appeal to the new political arena that is more American Idol than presidential election.

.

FreedomIsNotFree
04-15-2008, 12:01 AM
You're kidding right? Unfortunately, McCain has done too much to already beat himself, and a large number of Republicans will vote Obama, and few if any Democrats will swing-vote to MCain even when some did vote for G.W. Bush; and since it will end up being Obama, the Hillary/Obama argument is pointless. If Hillary is the candidate, McCain will win. You really need to hear how the rest of the country perceives these 3. I laughed when everyone in CA thought Gore and Kerry were shoe-ins, when I fully knew the attitudes of the rest of the country which Californians simply ignored out of a "I CAN'T HEAR YOU... LA LA LA LA LA!!! " with fingers in their ears attitude.

First, I'll be voting for McCain - reluctantly. I voted for Bush both prior terms. Voted for Ron Paul in the primaries (but won't in the major fall election). Voted for Ross Perot over Bush and Clinton. Voted for Bush over Dukakis. Got midwestern conservative Democrat parents to vote for Ronald Reagan - twice.

And in all cases since Carter, even when I voted for Perot, I predicted who would win. Unfortunately, Obama has this thing down across multiple demographics, even with those who previously voted for our recent rendition of Bush.

I hate to admit it, but it's true. Obama is the next president. :mad:

And I hate that. I wish we had a better Republican choice - I wish Ron Paul had appealed to people on a more general level, rather than scaring them off with his incredible think-tank creativity that most Joe-six-packs couldn't grasp; Ron Paul SHOULD be the next president, and IS the leader this country needs and will need again 4 years from now.

He just wasn't pretty enough on camera or young enough to appeal to the new political arena that is more American Idol than presidential election.

.

No, I am not kidding and I dont believe Obama is a shoe in for President as you claim. Just the same way I didn't believe Kerry was a shoe in for President like the media tried to convey to the sheeple in 2004.

Funny thing is we have voted, more or less, the same for quite a few past Presidential elections. I too would have liked nothing more than for RP to win the nomination and the Presidency, but unfortunately things didn't pan out like we had hoped.

I voted for RP in the primary because I believe he stands for the Constitution and America, but I will pinch my nose and vote for McCain in the general election because its either going to be Obama or McCain...simple as that really and I'd rather have the guy in the White House that I agree with 60% of the time rather than the guy I agree with 10% of the time.

McCain is not the hard right Republican type and I believe he does well with Independent and swing voters...surely better than Bush did....so, I think its still gonna be close....not hardly a for drawn conclusion for Obama as you claim considering how the Dems are ruining their best chance to win in decades.

CALI-gula
04-15-2008, 12:02 AM
The reason I didn't take the time to post many of the asinine comments/stances Obama has made/taken is because it really isn't worth my time to do your research for you. Either you are aware of them and are playing ignorant or you simply haven't looked for yourself and have already come to the conclusion that they dont exist.

The flaw in logic is yours for speaking before you do the research....just go to Google...type in "obama mistakes" and see what you come up with....the list is long and distinguished.

All very true - but America as a whole is enamored with the package. It's sad the way this election will be plotted. I half expect Simon Cowell or Paula Abdul to be sitting judges in one of the debates. Obama's the prettiest one, the "smiliest", the coolest delivery, he looks like their first boyfriend (ahem - for males and females alike) and he'll last the longest as the others are all "voted off the show".

All he needs to do now is get up, tell his single parent story over and over, and then cap it off by playing a saxophone with the band on Leno - hmmmm... why does that sound familiar? (in lieu of saxophone blowing... all he needs to do to look gifted with coolness is win a Grammy... hey, wait a minute!).

:rolleyes:

.

FreedomIsNotFree
04-15-2008, 12:07 AM
All very true - but America as a whole is enamored with the package. It's sad the way this election will be plotted. I half expect Simon Cowell or Paula Abdul to be sitting judges in one of the debates. Obama's the prettiest one, the "smiliest", the coolest delivery, he looks like their first boyfriend (ahem - for males and females alike) and he'll last the longest as the others are all "voted off the show".

All he needs to do now is get up, tell his single parent story over and over, and then cap it off by playing a saxophone with the band on Leno - hmmmm... why does that sound familiar? (in lieu of saxophone blowing... all he needs to do to look gifted with coolness is win a Grammy... hey, wait a minute!).

:rolleyes:

.

Ehh...not so sure myself. Considering Obama had a much more privileged upbringing than most of the people I know. Private schools, Ivy League College...etc..etc. I believe the media is hyping him, of course, and that when the run-up to the general election begins, he will be shown for the true liberal that he is...Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., was the most liberal senator in 2007, according to National Journal's 27th annual vote ratings.

http://nj.nationaljournal.com/voteratings/

CALI-gula
04-15-2008, 12:12 AM
No, I am not kidding and I dont believe Obama is a shoe in for President as you claim. Just the same way I didn't believe Kerry was a shoe in for President like the media tried to convey to the sheeple in 2004.

Look, I would love for you to be right. Again, I'm voting McCain. But the captioned above was my point - the media and liberal big city states (CA, NY, FL, Mass) played to that with Kerry, but ignored the rest of the country's leanings. At that time, all I heard from those ignored states was "voting for Bush", even from many Dem-Union die-hards, and I often laughed in the face of the Californians that chastised me for telling them Kerry would lose... and lose BIG! They just wouldn't/couldn't phathom it.

Yet, I have many connections and windows into those places around the country, and into those states previously ignored by the media, NY and CA, and I'm hearing Obama over and over, while the same are saying "I'll never vote for Hillary" all from people that previously voted Bush - both terms. I don't like it, but it's the fact that I'm seeing/hearing this which surprised me as well.

The thing I'm hearing most? "McCain scares me" or "McCain is scary" or "McCain is crazy" or "McCain has an uncontrollable temper". All he has to do is show it once, as he has in the past, as he will again, and he'll be out of there, a la Dean.

.

CALI-gula
04-15-2008, 12:24 AM
Ehh...not so sure myself. Considering Obama had a much more privileged upbringing than most of the people I know. Private schools, Ivy League College...etc..etc. I believe the media is hyping him, of course, and that when the run-up to the general election begins, he will be shown for the true liberal that he is...Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., was the most liberal senator in 2007, according to National Journal's 27th annual vote ratings.

http://nj.nationaljournal.com/voteratings/

Again... all true. I agree. I know all that. You and I, we're on the same side; but I'm simply seeing what is going on outside of the informed world. The past two elections have been an emotional shut-down for many common folk, and this time around - they'll ignore the history, the issues, the congress voting records... and vote for the most wonderful smile, the best looking actor. You've got people out there voting for Obama that couldn't tell you a single thing about the man; and they won't change their mind over it either - they already know "he's the cutest" or he looks like "a sharp young man - kinda like the MacGrevey's boy up the street that used to deliver the newspaper". And that's it - they're sold.

He is not his story. Yet I'm not sure the real story will ever get told or if it does, that people will listen (unlike Kerry). I am not sure that matters to the new slick-package method of politics inspired by reality show style American Idol run-offs. I think most of us here who educate ourselves about the candidates will be a rarity this election, even in the face of the past two elections which had the highest voter turn-out in decades.

I only hope that people think McCain is so weak, that they think Obama is such a shoe-in, that they don't go out and vote Obama. ;)

.

.

FreedomIsNotFree
04-15-2008, 12:25 AM
Only time will tell. Unfortunately, we get the leadership we deserve. Its sad to think that its between these 3 with 300 Million people in our country.

xxsicknessxx
04-15-2008, 6:08 AM
I think Obama and Clinton are made to distract us from the person who is going to win MCCAINE ... *shivers*
Or Bush Third Term (mc caine) is his puppet.

What you don't understand is 3 choices is not 3 choices its one. Its like
OH DO I WANT Coke, or Pepsi..

There was a time when any person could make any product they wanted and sell it, and if it was good.. then you made lots of money.

Nowadays, you need lots of money to make a product, and it does not have to be good.

:( its sad

Vote of Ron Paul, he supports guns, he supports the Constitution and won't pass any laws that he feels infringe on it.
Yes he is still in the race!

DigglerD
04-15-2008, 7:40 AM
Is this some kind of joke? Obama didn't grow up in Illinois...he grew up in Hawaii and attended a private school for the privileged. If you knew anything about the public school system in Hawaii you would understand how horrible it is for the common, everyday Hawaiian....not so for Obama...and more power to him for getting a great education, but for you to post a link to Cabrini Green like that is where Obama grew up is ridiculous...absolutely asinine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama


You really are in love with this guy aren't you?

(1) I'm willing to admit when I'm wrong. If he grew up in Hawaii and went to private schools then yes, this is a considerably more privileged life then I've been led to believe. A point you proved with evidence rather than conjecture and assertions (that you have still yet to provide in the other posts.) You are willing to research my assertions but not your own? Perhaps because there was actual evidence to refute mine... hmmmm...

(2) Read the post. I thought he grew up somewhere in Illinois. I know he went back to the slums of Chicago to help. If you are going to quote and respond, do it right. Cabrini Green is in Chicago and my reference to that was about his community organizing, not his youth.

(3) You forget what I said just 2-3 pages back? I want Ron Paul back... barring that, I want the best least bad guy. Obamma doesn't like guns, wants to socialize a lot of aspects of society, is looking to expand the government so that it can further intervene in my daily life while spending my money. Hilary wants to do the same but would sell us out for another $109M in a sec, she's a ruthless power whore. McCain... well, he's Bush III and that's worse than the other two combined.

FIF,

Don't try to confuse him with the facts. His mind is made up.

I guess this is what I should expect. FIF starts a 10 page thread filled with asinine assertions but it follows a conservative line so the fans go wild. I point this out and rather than evidence, I get cries of heresy. I miss a point on hardship (an issue not even central to the argument) and I get a full page of facts and evidence. Where are these same pages for all the other assertions in the thread?

Oh that's right.

If you haven't noticed the various asinine comments made by Obama then you obviously aren't paying attention.

The only evidence you need.

And this is the same guy that, earlier in the thread, tried to chastise me about making claims that aren't supported by the facts...haha...laughable.

That I'm still waiting for. Where is your Wiki page for your facts?


All he needs to do now is get up, tell his single parent story over and over, and then cap it off by playing a saxophone with the band on Leno - hmmmm... why does that sound familiar? (in lieu of saxophone blowing... all he needs to do to look gifted with coolness is win a Grammy... hey, wait a minute!).


True. It's all off topic but how is that different from the POW video & the "getting to know McCain" tour or Hilary tossing back shots and talking about her time shooting when she was a kid?

Only time will tell. Unfortunately, we get the leadership we deserve. Its sad to think that its between these 3 with 300 Million people in our country.

Something we actually agree on.

Outlaw Josey Wales
04-15-2008, 8:43 AM
Undercover blogger taped Obama's blunt remarks
Phillip Matier,Andrew Ross

Monday, April 14, 2008

Matier & Ross
Matier and Ross page

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Undercover blogger taped Obama's blunt remarks
04/14/2008

Presidential candidate Barack Obama's campaign has been in full damage control mode since the senator's blunt remarks about the nature of small town Pennsylvania voters were secretly recorded by a Huffington Post blogger at a recent San Francisco fundraiser that was supposed to be off limits to the press.

Obama, asked last Sunday why it was so hard for him to reach blue-collar voters, said that many had been overlooked economically and that "it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."

Democratic rival Hillary Rodham Clinton pounced on the comment over the weekend, calling it "elitist and divisive."

An Obama campaign insider tells us the blogger, Mayhill Fowler, had tried to get into one of two Obama fundraising events in the Bay Area a couple of months back where former New Jersey Sen. Bill Bradley stood in as a proxy.

She was turned away, even though she had offered to pay, says our source.

"There's a very basic (fundraiser) rule - you don't let press in, and anyone with an interest in reporting shouldn't get in," said the source.

Just how the MP3-wielding Fowler managed to secure an invite to the $1,000 a head fundraiser at the San Francisco home of developer Alex Mehran wasn't immediately clear - but Obama campaign higher-ups were said to be livid, with fingers pointing at a local fundraising consultant for the slip-up.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
As you can see, Obama's recent comments about guns and religion were not intended to be heard by the genearl public. Thanks to Mayhill Fowler the rest of the world now knows what most of us already knew about the Senator from Illinois! :D

FlyingPen
04-15-2008, 10:41 AM
Ehh...not so sure myself. Considering Obama had a much more privileged upbringing than most of the people I know. Private schools, Ivy League College...etc..etc. I believe the media is hyping him, of course, and that when the run-up to the general election begins, he will be shown for the true liberal that he is...Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., was the most liberal senator in 2007, according to National Journal's 27th annual vote ratings.

http://nj.nationaljournal.com/voteratings/

You know his mother was on food stamps when she was doing her graduate studies after she had Obama Jr. He was also the only black boy in his Indonesian schools. He didn't attend prestigious private international schools there because his stepfather couldn't afford it.

I think you're spinning it like he had some sort of amazing sheltered life but the truth of the matter is, unless you've been a minority in where you've lived and grown up, it's quite impossible to understand that experience.

I'm a liberal and pretty proud of it. You know a liberal freed the slaves, started the Civil Rights movement, started Women's suffrage and liberals started the American Revolution. Conservatives traditionally took opposing views to this, they wanted to stay loyal to the crown, not give minorities and women the right to vote and wanted to keep minority and white kids separate.

FreedomIsNotFree
04-15-2008, 11:15 AM
(1) I'm willing to admit when I'm wrong. If he grew up in Hawaii and went to private schools then yes, this is a considerably more privileged life then I've been led to believe. A point you proved with evidence rather than conjecture and assertions (that you have still yet to provide in the other posts.) You are willing to research my assertions but not your own? Perhaps because there was actual evidence to refute mine... hmmmm...

(2) Read the post. I thought he grew up somewhere in Illinois. I know he went back to the slums of Chicago to help. If you are going to quote and respond, do it right. Cabrini Green is in Chicago and my reference to that was about his community organizing, not his youth.

(3) You forget what I said just 2-3 pages back? I want Ron Paul back... barring that, I want the best least bad guy. Obamma doesn't like guns, wants to socialize a lot of aspects of society, is looking to expand the government so that it can further intervene in my daily life while spending my money. Hilary wants to do the same but would sell us out for another $109M in a sec, she's a ruthless power whore. McCain... well, he's Bush III and that's worse than the other two combined.



I guess this is what I should expect. FIF starts a 10 page thread filled with asinine assertions but it follows a conservative line so the fans go wild. I point this out and rather than evidence, I get cries of heresy. I miss a point on hardship (an issue not even central to the argument) and I get a full page of facts and evidence. Where are these same pages for all the other assertions in the thread?

Oh that's right.



The only evidence you need.



That I'm still waiting for. Where is your Wiki page for your facts?




True. It's all off topic but how is that different from the POW video & the "getting to know McCain" tour or Hilary tossing back shots and talking about her time shooting when she was a kid?



Something we actually agree on.

You just dont get it. When I said Obama has made/taken asinine comments/stances that was MY opinion. You want me to prove MY opinion which is ridiculous. Furthermore, I dont need to prove to you why I believe those comments/stances were asinine...again, if you cant/wont take the time to look for yourself, that is YOUR problem...not mine.

As I said before, this is not a debate, this is not a court of law and you are not a teacher/professor giving me a grade. If you would have taken half the time you have spent here, in this thread, responding to me and actually look in to the issue yourself, rather then expecting me to spoon feed you, you might actually learn something.

(2) Read the post. I thought he grew up somewhere in Illinois. I know he went back to the slums of Chicago to help. If you are going to quote and respond, do it right. Cabrini Green is in Chicago and my reference to that was about his community organizing, not his youth.

Well, you obviously thought wrong...that is where research plays a key role. And now you are going to tell me how to quote and respond correctly...haha...again, you are laughable.


I guess this is what I should expect. FIF starts a 10 page thread filled with asinine assertions but it follows a conservative line so the fans go wild. I point this out and rather than evidence, I get cries of heresy. I miss a point on hardship (an issue not even central to the argument) and I get a full page of facts and evidence. Where are these same pages for all the other assertions in the thread?

I didn't start a thread knowing it would blossom into a 10 page thread....I started a simple thread with a simple theme...dont blame me for the attention it has received. If you think what I have said is asinine, that is fine by me...I really dont care what you think. What I do know is I have stated facts while you have NOT. You have misrepresented the truth or you simply ran your mouth without checking the facts...seems like a common theme with you.

FreedomIsNotFree
04-15-2008, 11:27 AM
You know his mother was on food stamps when she was doing her graduate studies after she had Obama Jr. He was also the only black boy in his Indonesian schools. He didn't attend prestigious private international schools there because his stepfather couldn't afford it.

No, I have never heard that before. Could you point me to the source of your information?

I think you're spinning it like he had some sort of amazing sheltered life but the truth of the matter is, unless you've been a minority in where you've lived and grown up, it's quite impossible to understand that experience.


I'm not spinning anything. I'm simply stating the facts. I happen to know about the private school in Hawaii because I have some family there and I am well aware of the short falls in the public education system there. The private school that Obama attended is quite expensive. And for your information, I attended a school where I, as a white kid, was a miinority, so please save me the minority experience lecture...

I'm a liberal and pretty proud of it. You know a liberal freed the slaves, started the Civil Rights movement, started Women's suffrage and liberals started the American Revolution. Conservatives traditionally took opposing views to this, they wanted to stay loyal to the crown, not give minorities and women the right to vote and wanted to keep minority and white kids separate.

I didn't know Abe Lincoln was a liberal....last I checked he was a Republican...he WAS a republican...not a liberal.

For your information, it was the Republicans that pushed through the civil rights amendment over the objections of DEMOCRATS.

And where do you get the idea that "liberals" started the American Revolution? I dont think I've heard a more ridiculous comment in quite a while.

You really have a twisted sense of reality/history....is that the crap they are teaching in public schools nowadays?

Hans Gruber
04-15-2008, 11:37 AM
Folks, let's keep it civil lest we get locked down.

For the record, Obama's verbal trip ups are directly caused by the fact that he actually attempts to say what he thinks rather than run everything through the filters and advisers first.

That's actually part of his platform, to always tell us what he thinks.

dustoff31
04-15-2008, 12:00 PM
Folks, let's keep it civil lest we get locked down.

For the record, Obama's verbal trip ups are directly caused by the fact that he actually attempts to say what he thinks rather than run everything through the filters and advisers first.

That's actually part of his platform, to always tell us what he thinks.

So you're saying he really does believe we are a bunch of gun toting, idol worshiping, pissed off hicks who can't keep a job?

FlyingPen
04-15-2008, 12:07 PM
No, I have never heard that before. Could you point me to the source of your information?

Newsweek cover story profile on her.


I didn't know Abe Lincoln was a liberal....last I checked he was a Republican...he WAS a republican...not a liberal.

For your information, it was the Republicans that pushed through the civil rights amendment over the objections of DEMOCRATS.

And where do you get the idea that "liberals" started the American Revolution? I dont think I've heard a more ridiculous comment in quite a while.


Are you for real? You do know throughout American history, Democrat did not always mean liberal and Republican did not always mean conservative. The conservative sentiment in the time of American Revolution was to stay loyal Brits to the mother country. The view that we should be in revolution was a very liberal and controversial one and one that wasn't popular at first. It took a lot of liberal thinkers and politicians to move the country to revolution. If you go through the list of founding fathers, they held very liberal views of their time and were for the most part in fact, liberals. The word Liberals became a dirty word in contemporary American politics because of people like Ann and Rush but throughout history has been a badge of honor for people who brought about some of the greatest milestones of human development.


You really have a twisted sense of reality/history....is that the crap they are teaching in public schools nowadays?

Lol, and you're complaining about someone being elitist hahahahaha. The quality of one's education isn't necessarily tied to the quality of the school one has attended and for the record, I received my bachelors at a top ten college and also have a masters. I also attended some inner city schools inside NYC as well as exclusive suburban schools in Long Island.

Hopi
04-15-2008, 12:17 PM
Folks, let's keep it civil lest we get locked down.

For the record, Obama's verbal trip ups are directly caused by the fact that he actually attempts to say what he thinks rather than run everything through the filters and advisers first.

That's actually part of his platform, to always tell us what he thinks.

WTF?, You've been here since 2005 and you've posted 2 other times before this? You are the Yin to Chief's Yang..:p

ETA: And you've only posted in support of Obama? I wonder why you originally joined this forum?

Hans Gruber
04-15-2008, 12:52 PM
WTF?, You've been here since 2005 and you've posted 2 other times before this? You are the Yin to Chief's Yang..:p

ETA: And you've only posted in support of Obama? I wonder why you originally joined this forum?

Yes Hopi,

I've been the sleeper member since 2005 just waiting for Obama to become a presidential candidate so that I could pounce on unsuspecting "gun nuts".

Actually I'm just a guy who lives in CA who owns a gun and who has learned a metric TON of stuff by lurking in the shadows on this forum. I'm really tempted to build an OLL but that's a story for another thread.


So you're saying he really does believe we are a bunch of gun toting, idol worshiping, pissed off hicks who can't keep a job?


I'm say that that's not what he said at all. Or at least not what he meant to say. He's clarified himself several times since then. If you're not actually interested in knowing what he actually thinks, then there's not much point in debating it.

dustoff31
04-15-2008, 1:35 PM
If you go through the list of founding fathers, they held very liberal views of their time and were for the most part in fact, liberals.

I will concede this point to some extent. Having said that, I think any attempt to draw a parallel between liberal views in the 18th century and liberal views as put forth today is well, just silly.

How much of the platform espoused by most of todays liberals do you suppose would be supported by the founders?


The word Liberals became a dirty word in contemporary American politics because of people like Ann and Rush but throughout history has been a badge of honor for people who brought about some of the greatest milestones of human development.

Right. It had nothing to do with the speech and actions of today's Liberals. They have been done in by radio talk show hosts.

FlyingPen
04-15-2008, 1:44 PM
I will concede this point to some extent. Having said that, I think any attempt to draw a parallel between liberal views in the 18th century and liberal views as put forth today is well, just silly.


It won't be for at least another century before we can make that evaluation.

FreedomIsNotFree
04-15-2008, 1:45 PM
Are you for real? You do know throughout American history, Democrat did not always mean liberal and Republican did not always mean conservative. The conservative sentiment in the time of American Revolution was to stay loyal Brits to the mother country. The view that we should be in revolution was a very liberal and controversial one and one that wasn't popular at first. It took a lot of liberal thinkers and politicians to move the country to revolution. If you go through the list of founding fathers, they held very liberal views of their time and were for the most part in fact, liberals. The word Liberals became a dirty word in contemporary American politics because of people like Ann and Rush but throughout history has been a badge of honor for people who brought about some of the greatest milestones of human development.

I would agree that the terms liberal, in todays sense, may be different than how the word is actually defined in a dictionary. That said, you claimed you were a proud liberal based on today's standard/understanding from a political perspective. Then you listed a number of supposed accomplishments of liberals and categorized "conservatives" and those that were against freeing he slaves, the Civil Rights Amendment and basically integration in general. You couldn't be more wrong on these points because you associated conservatives, ie Republicans, with those that opposed these actions when in fact it was Republicans that led them.

Do you refute the fact that it was REPUBLICANS that led the way freeing the slaves...do you refute the fact that it was REPUBLICANS that spearheaded the Civil Rights Amendment....do you refute the fact that it was DEMOCRATS that stood in the way and tried to derail these accomplishments? It was the DEMOCRATS that tried to stop the Civil Rights Amendment via a filibuster.

Lol, and you're complaining about someone being elitist hahahahaha. The quality of one's education isn't necessarily tied to the quality of the school one has attended and for the record, I received my bachelors at a top ten college and also have a masters. I also attended some inner city schools inside NYC as well as exclusive suburban schools in Long Island

Please show me where I complained about anyone being an "elitist"...where did I use that word? I never said the quality of ones education is dependent upon the school they attend/attended.

With your skewed sense of history, as evident by your listing of "liberal" accomplishments, it really calls into question your "top ten" education. By the sound of it, you along with Obama, have had many more privileges than the average Joe. Heck, I only attended a State school here in CA and could poke many holes in your "analysis" of liberal/conservative history.

Hopi
04-15-2008, 2:14 PM
Yes Hopi,

I've been the sleeper member since 2005 just waiting for Obama to become a presidential candidate so that I could pounce on unsuspecting "gun nuts".

Actually I'm just a guy who lives in CA who owns a gun and who has learned a metric TON of stuff by lurking in the shadows on this forum. I'm really tempted to build an OLL but that's a story for another thread.




Excellent, I suppose part of my intention was to pull some more posts out of ya!

Judging by your post count, I was about to give you the "Welcome to the forum!" line, but I noticed your join date and visions of the D.U./ATF/DOJ trolls went dancing through my head. :TFH:

Hans Gruber
04-15-2008, 2:34 PM
Excellent, I suppose part of my intention was to pull some more posts out of ya!

Judging by your post count, I was about to give you the "Welcome to the forum!" line, but I noticed your join date and visions of the D.U./ATF/DOJ trolls went dancing through my head. :TFH:

Heh, no gov agency here. I just tend to keep my mouth shut if I don't have anything to add. :)

DigglerD
04-15-2008, 2:40 PM
As you can see, Obama's recent comments about guns and religion were not intended to be heard by the genearl public. Thanks to Mayhill Fowler the rest of the world now knows what most of us already knew about the Senator from Illinois! :D

You think the same rules aren't in place for the other campaigns? I too say kudos to getting us the truth!

It is however one sided when you are only bugging the private conversations of one candidate.

FlyingPen
04-15-2008, 4:02 PM
I would agree that the terms liberal, in todays sense, may be different than how the word is actually defined in a dictionary. That said, you claimed you were a proud liberal based on today's standard/understanding from a political perspective. Then you listed a number of supposed accomplishments of liberals and categorized "conservatives" and those that were against freeing he slaves, the Civil Rights Amendment and basically integration in general. You couldn't be more wrong on these points because you associated conservatives, ie Republicans, with those that opposed these actions when in fact it was Republicans that led them.

No, actually you did. I never brought up any political parties at all. Guess what, REPUBLICANS = LIBERALS in certain points in history and DEMOCRATS = CONSERVATIVES. I don't know how many times I need to repeat that.


Do you refute the fact that it was REPUBLICANS that led the way freeing the slaves...do you refute the fact that it was REPUBLICANS that spearheaded the Civil Rights Amendment....do you refute the fact that it was DEMOCRATS that stood in the way and tried to derail these accomplishments? It was the DEMOCRATS that tried to stop the Civil Rights Amendment via a filibuster.


You really like to box yourself into neat little existing constructs of the current majority political systems. AM Radio is doing it's job well.

I never said the quality of ones education is dependent upon the school they attend/attended.


Yeah. Right. I'm sure that's why you questioned the state of public schools and MY warped understanding of history. Maybe it would work better if you actually did understand history instead of espousing the same trite lines.


With your skewed sense of history, as evident by your listing of "liberal" accomplishments, it really calls into question your "top ten" education. By the sound of it, you along with Obama, have had many more privileges than the average Joe. Heck, I only attended a State school here in CA and could poke many holes in your "analysis" of liberal/conservative history.

Yeah, state schools in California include UCLA and UC Berkeley which are world class institutions. You really have no idea what you're talking about here and just constructing straw men for you to humorously take apart, must be a pleasing mental masturbatory exercise. Please stop being obsessed with Democrat vs. Republican, FYI, I'm neither. If graduating college and continuing on in higher education is a "liberal" accomplishment, sign me up!

And here we see your major fault, you're making a lot of major assumptions with a small modicum of knowledge. Why would someone with a privileged upbringing attend a public inner city school with metal detectors and locker searches? I wouldn't be so quick to make sweeping assumptions about people because it tends to make yourself look bad. The fact that you really don't all that much about Obama's upbringing which are widely available in most large print media outlets just amplifies this flaw.

Anyways, you're completely missing the point. It isn't about which political party did what, it's about liberals and conservatives, it always has been since the birth of the country. Political leanings of parties have swapped many times where the conservatives of today would have been in the Democratic party and vice versa all throughout history.

dfletcher
04-15-2008, 4:03 PM
I think the Senator is an excellent speaker and says exactly what he intends to say with exacting imprecision. I saw him on CNN yesterday, apologizing for what he said in SF and the reason he first listed for the apology was that it allowed people "to misunderstand" what he said. I've always believed an apology should consist of accepting responsibilty, contrition and a promise to not repeat the offense. A "positive" apology as it were. A "negative" apology - I apologize to those who may be offended or a reference to what "happened" (as opposed to "what I did") - is no apology at all.

FlyingPen
04-15-2008, 4:10 PM
I think the Senator is an excellent speaker and says exactly what he intends to say with exacting imprecision.

I agree. In the upcoming PA primary, it doesn't really hurt him at all. Only registered Dems can vote in this primary and it solidifies his base as well as taking some away from Hillary who has stupidly walked into a "HEY LOOK AT ME, I WAS SHOOTING GUNS SINCE I WAS A KID" position which really just amplifies her willingness to stoop to any level to exploit a situation. It also gives him a chance to go on the offensive against Hillary which he couldn't have unless Clinton went on the offensive first.

It hurts him in the general but the Clinton machine is a much tougher opponent than McCain ever will be.

FreedomIsNotFree
04-15-2008, 4:49 PM
No, actually you did. I never brought up any political parties at all. Guess what, REPUBLICANS = LIBERALS in certain points in history and DEMOCRATS = CONSERVATIVES. I don't know how many times I need to repeat that.

Lets, again, quote you on your initial post in this thread....

I'm a liberal and pretty proud of it.

So, you are now saying that you do not associate the words "I'm a liberal and pretty proud of it" with any political affiliation? That's odd. If you ask 100 people what it means when someone claims that THEY are a liberal and undoubtedly the vast majority will agree that a self proclaimed liberal aligns them self with the Democrat party.

Now, you want to argue the dictionary definition of the TERM liberal, one that seeks change from the status quo, as if that is what you meant? Get real...we aint falling for that crap. We know what you meant when you said "I'm a liberal"....you did not say I have liberal points of view...you said you were a liberal. There is a distinction there and you cant pull the wool over my eyes after I called you on your nonsense.


You really like to box yourself into neat little existing constructs of the current majority political systems. AM Radio is doing it's job well.

I noticed that you didn't answer the question or refute anything that I said in this regard...that alone is quite telling.


Yeah. Right. I'm sure that's why you questioned the state of public schools and MY warped understanding of history. Maybe it would work better if you actually did understand history instead of espousing the same trite lines.

Again, I never said the quality of ones education is dependent upon the school they attend/attended. I know plenty of people that are extremely intelligent without any college education at all. There are a multitude of ways of becoming educated independent of the school/college system. What I questioned was YOUR education if you really believe "liberals" led the way in all of those grand changes to our country's fabric. Yes, they were liberal changes as defined by a dictionary, but they were not led by "liberals" in todays sense of the word....for you to now argue as if that is what you meant is disingenuous at best.

Let me put it another way....if you claim you are "liberal" from the dictionary definition, that means you want EVERYTHING to change. Is that now what you are claiming? I believe most of us are liberal on some issues, meaning we want change, and on other issues we are conservative, meaning we like the status quo...that is if you are going to go by the dictionary definition exclusively...but we all know that wasn't what you meant.


Yeah, state schools in California include UCLA and UC Berkeley which are world class institutions. You really have no idea what you're talking about here and just constructing straw men for you to humorously take apart, must be a pleasing mental masturbatory exercise. Please stop being obsessed with Democrat vs. Republican, FYI, I'm neither. If graduating college and continuing on in higher education is a "liberal" accomplishment, sign me up!

No, State schools in CA are just that..."State" schools...such as San Jose State University....they are part of what we call the CSU system....California State University.....If you are talking UCLA, UC Berkeley..etc..etc....they are part of the UC system. UC schools are of the higher level and much harder to get in to than CSU schools. The difference is also reflected in the cost to attend. Do you really not know the difference? Maybe you aren't from CA and just dont know....I'll give you a pass on that.


And here we see your major fault, you're making a lot of major assumptions with a small modicum of knowledge. Why would someone with a privileged upbringing attend a public inner city school with metal detectors and locker searches? I wouldn't be so quick to make sweeping assumptions about people because it tends to make yourself look bad. The fact that you really don't all that much about Obama's upbringing which are widely available in most large print media outlets just amplifies this flaw.

Who attended a public inner city school with metal detectors and locker searches? I sure hope you aren't insinuating Obama did...that myth has been debunked in this thread already. I would encourage you to read through for a more complete understanding. And as for the sweeping assumptions, you might want to be careful who you are pointing at when you are looking in the mirror.


Anyways, you're completely missing the point. It isn't about which political party did what, it's about liberals and conservatives, it always has been since the birth of the country. Political leanings of parties have swapped many times where the conservatives of today would have been in the Democratic party and vice versa all throughout history.

I dont believe I'm missing the point at all. You claimed you are a proud liberal and and associated many of the great changes in our nations history to "liberals", not liberal thinking. Again, we know what you meant, so please dont try the mental texas two step....

DigglerD
04-15-2008, 6:54 PM
You just dont get it. When I said Obama has made/taken asinine comments/stances that was MY opinion. You want me to prove MY opinion which is ridiculous. Furthermore, I dont need to prove to you why I believe those comments/stances were asinine...again, if you cant/wont take the time to look for yourself, that is YOUR problem...not mine.

Sure, what is "asinine" is an opinion, however the comments (that you think are asinine) must have been factually made for you to think they are asinine. The fact that you can not provide said comments tells me (and any other critical thinker) they don't exist even if you've convinced yourself they do. 5-6 posts now and you are still talking around what you think is asinine rather than simply providing the comments. (FWIW, I really wanted to know what these comments were...) All this while you were quick to go get literature to prove me wrong on his youth. This tells me you don't actually know what it is you think is asinine. Instead, you would rather label and base you opinions on fiction rather than fact.

I never said you had to listen to me, I didn't claim to be your teacher or the great debater. You started a thread, you made assertions... it's a public forum, don't you expect people to ask you how you came to a conclusion when you provide one without warrant? I only pointed out that your comments should be based in some realm of reality to be taken serious.

Either way, you can see in my posts, I am willing to conceded when a legitimate point is made. I've done it in three different posts now. You on the other hand would rather pout and throw attitude on why you can have an opinion and why I don't matter. I like an exchange of ideas but I guess we don't all like disagreement.

FlyingPen
04-15-2008, 7:25 PM
So, you are now saying that you do not associate the words "I'm a liberal and pretty proud of it" with any political affiliation? That's odd. If you ask 100 people what it means when someone claims that THEY are a liberal and undoubtedly the vast majority will agree that a self proclaimed liberal aligns them self with the Democrat party.

Now, you want to argue the dictionary definition of the TERM liberal, one that seeks change from the status quo, as if that is what you meant? Get real...we aint falling for that crap. We know what you meant when you said "I'm a liberal"....you did not say I have liberal points of view...you said you were a liberal. There is a distinction there and you cant pull the wool over my eyes after I called you on your nonsense.

Nope. You're really not making any sense here and there's really no further point arguing because I really don't know what to make of your argument anymore. When I said, I'm a liberal, I'm not insinuating all the crazy stuff you're talking about or making for a definition you're reaching for. Saying I'm a liberal OF COURSE MEANS I HAVE LIBERAL POINTS OF VIEW. It's also a fact that if you have liberal points of view, they line up with a lot of the Democratic party. It's not my fault that you follow the AM radio definitions of liberal which must mean evil bad guy. I follow the definitions as defined by history, not insane radio hosts that are trying to shape people's thinking with extreme ideology. Good thing I didn't call myself a progressive or maybe you would have really flipped your ****. I am a progressive too.


I noticed that you didn't answer the question or refute anything that I said in this regard...that alone is quite telling.

I don't know what you're talking about, anything I didn't address that you said was because I didn't think it was important. There's no secret plan here.



Again, I never said the quality of ones education is dependent upon the school they attend/attended. I know plenty of people that are extremely intelligent without any college education at all. There are a multitude of ways of becoming educated independent of the school/college system. What I questioned was YOUR education if you really believe "liberals" led the way in all of those grand changes to our country's fabric. Yes, they were liberal changes as defined by a dictionary, but they were not led by "liberals" in todays sense of the word....for you to now argue as if that is what you meant is disingenuous at best.
Okay dude. Pot. Kettle. Black.


Let me put it another way....if you claim you are "liberal" from the dictionary definition, that means you want EVERYTHING to change. Is that now what you are claiming?
You really need to look up what a straw man is.


Maybe you aren't from CA and just dont know....I'll give you a pass on that. You guessed right, however, the UC System is still a PUBLIC UNIVERSITY system but it was my mistake in labeling them as a "State" school even though they're funded by the state, a subtle distinction for a non native who didn't apply to any public CA colleges.



Who attended a public inner city school with metal detectors and locker searches? I sure hope you aren't insinuating Obama did...

Nope, wasn't Obama who I was talking about... reread who you accused of having a privileged upbringing like Obama.


I dont believe I'm missing the point at all. You claimed you are a proud liberal and and associated many of the great changes in our nations history to "liberals", not liberal thinking. Again, we know what you meant, so please dont try the mental texas two step....

People who are liberal thinkers, are by definition, liberals.

The liberals of today that you seem to have so much disdain for are the same people who are pushing for most of the change that are liberal issues of our time like gay marriage, open gay rights in the military, right to die for patients, etc. You are right in that a lot of these line up as Democratic values.

While I don't consider myself a Democrat and am not registered as one, I do share a lot of liberal values with the Democrats but of course, not all (guess which one!). I share some Republican values as well but not a lot since I consider most of their stances on topics to be freedom limiting and backwards, especially government surveillance.

The liberals of today are the same people who back through history received as much disdain for pushing similar values against conservative sentiment at the time. Liberals, NOT democrats/republicans push for change against the status quo like allowing doctor assisted suicide, fighting against taxation without representation, giving women the right to vote, allowing gay persons to serve openly in the military, etc. These were all considered radical values at their time kind of like stem cell research or universal health care.

If you really can't get it from here, I think I've exhausted my attention in trying to get you to understand this relationship between history and our world today. If you want to throw more ad homs and throw a fit, go right ahead.

FreedomIsNotFree
04-16-2008, 12:16 AM
You really are confusing yourself....first your "liberal" thinking has nothing at all to do with any political party/affiliation, ie Democrats....then you say it does....then you say it doesn't again....interesting.

I share some Republican values

I guess this means you are a "conservative" as well?

In any event, I agree that we have exhausted this topic in its current form. Take care.

DigglerD
04-16-2008, 7:54 AM
LSo, you are now saying that you do not associate the words "I'm a liberal and pretty proud of it" with any political affiliation? That's odd. If you ask 100 people what it means when someone claims that THEY are a liberal and undoubtedly the vast majority will agree that a self proclaimed liberal aligns them self with the Democrat party.

Liberal has been completely misconstrued from its original meaning. It originally meant more rights, less government. The founding founders called themselves liberals. At some point in time the definitions swapped and then just lost meaning.

Now Dems are typically liberal in social matters and conservative in fiscal matters while Republicans have traditionally been the opposite but of late have become conservative in both (as it pertains to the working class).

Libertarians are now the new liberal standard.

No, State schools in CA are just that..."State" schools...such as San Jose State University....they are part of what we call the CSU system....California State University.....If you are talking UCLA, UC Berkeley..etc..etc....they are part of the UC system. UC schools are of the higher level and much harder to get in to than CSU schools. The difference is also reflected in the cost to attend. Do you really not know the difference? Maybe you aren't from CA and just dont know....I'll give you a pass on that.

Umm dude, they are both state institutions. The UC system focuses on research while the CSU system focuses on classroom education. The UC's traditionally pull in the professors that are actively researching their field of study, this means they are usually more engaged in the subject matter and held as a higher authority in their field. However, research is first, education is second. The working distinction is small classes (CSU) v. large forums (UC).

FreedomIsNotFree
04-16-2008, 6:35 PM
Liberal has been completely misconstrued from its original meaning. It originally meant more rights, less government. The founding founders called themselves liberals. At some point in time the definitions swapped and then just lost meaning.

Now Dems are typically liberal in social matters and conservative in fiscal matters while Republicans have traditionally been the opposite but of late have become conservative in both (as it pertains to the working class).

Libertarians are now the new liberal standard.



Umm dude, they are both state institutions. The UC system focuses on research while the CSU system focuses on classroom education. The UC's traditionally pull in the professors that are actively researching their field of study, this means they are usually more engaged in the subject matter and held as a higher authority in their field. However, research is first, education is second. The working distinction is small classes (CSU) v. large forums (UC).

I agree. The terms liberal and conservative, in a traditional and as defined in a dictionary, are historically different than how they are applied in todays political landscape. I think we'd agree that when someone says they are a "liberal" or "conservative" it comes with the stigma of a specific political party...ie Dems or Reps. Although not historically accurate, to deny this association is naive in my opinion.

In regards to UC vs. CSU...yes they are both state institutions, but they are seperate systems. UC's focus on research and CSU's focus teaching, but a hard distinction is UC's offer Doctorate programs and CSU's typically dont. That said, typically when someone says they attended a "State" school here in CA they mean a University within the CSU system such as San Jose State or San Diego State..etc..etc.. at least that has been my experience.

We probably shouldn't debate the CA University system within this thread considering its way off topic.