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Pred@tor
04-10-2008, 1:56 PM
Oakland cops: Mind if we search your house for guns?
By Kelly Rayburn, Staff Writer
Article Created: 04/09/2008 05:58:57 PM PDT

OAKLAND _ A six-month pilot program where Oakland police officers would knock on doors and ask permission to search homes for guns got the green light from the City Councilís public safety committee Tuesday night.

It goes to the full council Tuesday, when the council will meet at 6 p.m. at City Hall, 1 Frank Ogawa Plaza.

The consent-to-search program, as it is called, is based closely on a similar effort launched in St. Louis in 1994 and on ongoing programs in Boston and Washington, D.C. The idea is simple: To ask parents for permission to search their homes for weapons their children may be hiding.

Under the program, officers would request permission to search homes for guns. Guns would be taken away, but officers would not pursue prosecution unless the weapon was tied to a crime.

The St. Louis effort fizzled after initial success, but Oaklandís Deputy Police Chief David Kozicki said that in Washington, police officers say they cannot keep up with requests from parents to search their homes. Such is the interest in the program, he said.

Councilwoman Patricia Kernighan (Grand Lake-Chinatown), who is on the public safety committee, said she was surprised to hear that and hoped Oakland might see the same results.

....I think itís worth trying and seeing what the community reaction is,íí she said. ....If itís embraced as a way to get guns off the street, great. If people donít want to cooperate, then we donít continue the program.íí

Kernighan and
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Councilwoman Desley Brooks (Eastmont-Seminary) asked the Police Department to look into the possibility of a consent-to-search program in February.

The police department is proposing a six-month trial period for the program beginning in either June or July, probably somewhere in West Oakland.

Lt. Kirt Mullnix said the program, which would be launched during summer break, would largely be operated by Campus Life and School Safety (CLASS) officers, who normally patrol in and around schools.

It also could involve department problem-solving officers as well. All told, six to 10 officers would be used in the effort, Mullnix said. He didnít anticipate additional overtime being billed to the city.

Consent-to-search programs are not without controversy. Oakland civil-rights attorney John Burris criticized the idea when asked about it in February. And the American Civil Liberties Union has protested programs in other cities. Mark Schlosberg, police practices policy director for the ACLU of Northern California, said the organization would pay close attention to what happens in Oakland.

"There are a whole host of reasons why people might not want police to search their homes," he said. "But people might not know they have a right not to consent."

City and police officials stressed it would be important to educate community members about how the program works before implementing it and said providing education and outreach would be a priority.

Under the program, if guns were found, police would take them away, but not pursue prosecution unless the gun in question was tied to a shooting or homicide.

....The important thing is youíre looking at removing guns from the streets to prevent future violence,íí Mullnix said. ....Youíre giving up arrest and prosecution for less violence in the future. Itís another tool we can use. Thereís a lot of gun violence in Oakland and thatís why weíre trying it.íí

Contact Kelly Rayburn at (510) 208-6435 or krayburn@bayareanewsgroup.com.

http://www.insidebayarea.com/ci_8868701
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Cool beans? What you think my fellow cal gunners?

yellowfin
04-10-2008, 2:00 PM
They're going broke and this is a priority to them? Is there anyone in here who lives in or near Oakland? Who went to the Public Safety Committee meeting? More to the point, does anyone here go to Public Safety Committee meetings at all?

dasmi
04-10-2008, 2:03 PM
They are starting to condition people to the idea of police searching homes. Eventually, it won't be voluntary.

Harrison_Bergeron
04-10-2008, 2:18 PM
How exactly would this work? You can't look at a gun and automatically know its the one from the shooting on 2nd street last month. Does this mean that they plan to confiscate all guns and run the CSI style ballistics test on them? How long does that take? How much does that cost? Are registered guns exempt? Can you consent to the search of little Billy's room, and then prevent them from taking your own registered firearm? Why can't people search their owns kid's rooms?

I agree, it's just conditioning.

50 Freak
04-10-2008, 2:26 PM
They are starting to condition people to the idea of police searching homes. Eventually, it won't be voluntary.

If that is true, I hope they will condition themselves to see a lot of body bags and the hatred of the public grow considerablely.

AKman
04-10-2008, 2:35 PM
They are starting to condition people to the idea of police searching homes. Eventually, it won't be voluntary.

Only if they suspend the Constitution. Even the ACLU is all over this one.

AaronHorrocks
04-10-2008, 2:48 PM
Getting guns off the street?

Where are all of these mysterious street guns? Under Billy's bed? :rolleyes:

mecam
04-10-2008, 2:49 PM
They're going broke and this is a priority to them? Is there anyone in here who lives in or near Oakland? Who went to the Public Safety Committee meeting? More to the point, does anyone here go to Public Safety Committee meetings at all?

Going to these meetings is very dangerous. :D

dexter9659
04-10-2008, 2:51 PM
Ill ask my next door neighbor about the searching of homes. He is an Oakland PD and im sure finds this laughable.

dasmi
04-10-2008, 2:52 PM
Only if they suspend the Constitution. Even the ACLU is all over this one.


Yeah, cause our local, state, and federal governments have never completely ignored the constitution before. They don't need to suspend the constitution. They just need to convince enough people it's for the children, to keep us safe, to get guns off the street, to fight the drug war, etc.

wilit
04-10-2008, 2:55 PM
I'm sure it'll be the success it was in D.C. and Boston.

mecam
04-10-2008, 2:58 PM
They do this, they'll end up discovering more pot farms. ;)

yellowfin
04-10-2008, 4:09 PM
Only if they suspend the Constitution. Even the ACLU is all over this one. They already did suspend the Constitution in Hickman v. Block. Now they're just working on the rest of it.

dfletcher
04-10-2008, 4:11 PM
They are starting to condition people to the idea of police searching homes. Eventually, it won't be voluntary.

Does this mean voluntary home searches will become like "voluntary" car searches as in "Well if you don't have anything illegal in your ( ) car ( ) home you certainly won't mind if I search, correct?

Since we have good representation from LE on these boards I'd be curious to know a) how would you obtain legal access to a person's home after they initially declined to consent to a search and b) what could a homeowner say or do in initially declining that search which would make you absolutely stop. I'd be interested in real world, practical information.

If the police knock, should we answer the door with the camcorder running?

Harrison_Bergeron
04-10-2008, 4:14 PM
I think it is a little early for that, I think this is just as much to condition the officers as it is the citizens.

Does this mean voluntary home searches will become like "voluntary" car searches as in "Well if you don't have anything illegal in your ( ) car ( ) home you certainly won't mind if I search, correct?

Since we have good representation from LE on these boards I'd be curious to know a) how would you obtain legal access to a person's home after they initially declined to consent to a search and b) what could a homeowner say or do in initially declining that search which would make you absolutely stop. I'd be interested in real world, practical information.

thefifthspeed
04-10-2008, 4:19 PM
Does this mean voluntary home searches will become like "voluntary" car searches as in "Well if you don't have anything illegal in your ( ) car ( ) home you certainly won't mind if I search, correct?

Since we have good representation from LE on these boards I'd be curious to know a) how would you obtain legal access to a person's home after they initially declined to consent to a search and b) what could a homeowner say or do in initially declining that search which would make you absolutely stop. I'd be interested in real world, practical information.

If the police knock, should we answer the door with the camcorder running?

Consent can be taken away at any time and if the person who gave it says stop LE has to stop. If they want to continue further they would need to obtain a search warrant.

tombinghamthegreat
04-10-2008, 4:27 PM
I since the end of our rights if these acts continue with no oppisition, this is not about public safety its about control.

Pvt. Cowboy
04-10-2008, 5:33 PM
They are starting to condition people to the idea of police searching homes. Eventually, it won't be voluntary.

Before anyone accuses you or I of wearing a tinfoil hat, that's exactly what this is. Conditioning. Time will tell if it works out, but have no doubt that they're trying.

These 'voluntary searches' for guns are occurring in several US urban areas all at the same time. This notion was one of the top items on the 'To-Do list' for the national meeting of American mayors over the recent months. The mayors in cities that would be resistant to warrantless voluntary searches are waiting and seeing how smoothly this goes in Washington DC, Boston, New York City, the Bay Area, and so on. Give it awhile and it'll be Los Angeles, Phoenix, St. Louis, Miami, and everywhere else.

Just like cities all over the USA adopting smoking bans and talking on a cell phone while driving, they'll condition citizens to think that they're backwards and being left behind if they're not in favor of warrantless 'voluntary' searches. Why, the *community* is in grave danger! Eventually, it won't be voluntary when they're able to appear on the teevee claiming that the new mandatory search law already has broad consent simply from Americans already opening their doors willingly.

But what about the 4th Amendment? Pfft. All that needs to happen is President Obama placing three new left wing justices on the SCOTUS who'll rule that the police aren't violating your rights if they're not charging you with anything. Isn't that a happy compromise, citizen? Meanwhile, they'll pack the lower courts with ideological comrades who will build concensus.

First, they gotta get it established that you have no individual rights to bear arms outside the militia and that municipalities have broad powers to restrict firearms. Would a 'voluntary search' be unreasonable in that light?

yellowfin
04-10-2008, 5:45 PM
St. Louis, Atlanta, Miami, and other cities in Free States won't buy it.

Patriot
04-10-2008, 5:50 PM
a polite go **** yourself should do

Like Ahnold in T1? :43:

Piper
04-10-2008, 5:54 PM
a polite go **** yourself should do

:iagree: What he said, followed by a not so polite slam of the door.

DesertGunner
04-10-2008, 6:39 PM
Consent can be taken away at any time and if the person who gave it says stop LE has to stop. If they want to continue further they would need to obtain a search warrant.

Ditto. If you don't want the police to search your home or your car, don't give consent.

Exceptions apply if the police already have a warrant, PC or an exception to the 4th applies (exigent circumstance, Readily Mobile Conveyance, hot pursuit, etc.).

razorx
04-10-2008, 7:08 PM
I think it is a worthwhile service if requested by a parent. Sad they don't have the, uh, spheroids to do it themselves but fine.

However, shouldn't be allowed for LE to initiate, can only be at a specific request from homeowner with conversation recorded with clearly understood responses to defined questions plus communication of associated rights.

Shotgun Man
04-10-2008, 7:09 PM
Ditto. If you don't want the police to search your home or your car, don't give consent.

It is not unheard of for the cops to lie about consent to search. I believe it happens routinely.

I had my own experience. I was at the beach in the early morning hours with a friend, watching how the waves were breaking, thinking about going surfing in the a.m. The two cops show up. One cop starts searching inside of my pockets, pulling everything out, certainly not a pat-down. As he twirls me around to gain access to my backside he says, "So you consent to this, right?"

I say, "Absolutely not! I do not consent to a search."

He continues to search inside of my pockets anyway. Takes my wallet. Gives it back to me later (after doing a warrant check) and sets me free.

Maybe I should have said, "Sure-- as long as you use vaseline." I'm not a sensitive type, but I felt like I had been raped. Not to minimize the plight of rape victims, but I was definitely mildly traumatized.

bg
04-10-2008, 7:10 PM
Now if they would just apply this to illegal aliens..

dfletcher
04-10-2008, 7:46 PM
Now if they would just apply this to illegal aliens..

In San Francisco, to paraphrase Clemenza, it would be "Take the gun, leave the illegal alien....." :cool:

SchooBaka
04-10-2008, 8:38 PM
So, are we seeing the beginning phases of door to door gun confiscation yet?

jamesob
04-10-2008, 8:46 PM
whats wrong with telling the parents to do their jobs and be a little nosey? all parents should go threw their kids stuff, its called being a parent. and tell them if they find a gun beat their *** and turn the gun in.

SchooBaka
04-10-2008, 8:55 PM
whats wrong with telling the parents to do their jobs and be a little nosey? all parents should go threw their kids stuff, its called being a parent. and tell them if they find a gun beat their *** and turn the gun in.

Agreed.
I think the problem lies in the fact that kids have legal recourse these days.
When I grew up, I had no rights until I was 18; and even then, as long as I lived under my parents roof, there was no democracy. It was a dictatorship, and if you did'nt like it, get out and live free.

mymonkeyman
04-10-2008, 10:30 PM
It is not unheard of for the cops to lie about consent to search. I believe it happens routinely.

I had my own experience. I was at the beach in the early morning hours with a friend, watching how the waves were breaking, thinking about going surfing in the a.m. The two cops show up. One cop starts searching inside of my pockets, pulling everything out, certainly not a pat-down. As he twirls me around to gain access to my backside he says, "So you consent to this, right?"

I say, "Absolutely not! I do not consent to a search."

He continues to search inside of my pockets anyway. Takes my wallet. Gives it back to me later (after doing a warrant check) and sets me free.

Maybe I should have said, "Sure-- as long as you use vaseline." I'm not a sensitive type, but I felt like I had been raped. Not to minimize the plight of rape victims, but I was definitely mildly traumatized.

That sucks but is not unexpected. If you don't' end up being prosecuted, the only remedies you have are the administrative complaint system within the police force (good luck with that) or a civil lawsuit (no lawyer will take your case unless it pays off big or you are willing to pay, which is not the case for something like this).

If you are prosecuted, the prosecution has the burden of proof (in front of a judge, not a jury, and only by a preponderance standard) to show that there was consent and that it was voluntary, or else it will be excluded. In the 9th circuit you have a pretty good shot of defeating that, especially if the officer isn't good at keeping his story 100% consistent (or if he has a prior bad record).

dfletcher
04-10-2008, 11:19 PM
Agreed.
I think the problem lies in the fact that kids have legal recourse these days.
When I grew up, I had no rights until I was 18; and even then, as long as I lived under my parents roof, there was no democracy. It was a dictatorship, and if you did'nt like it, get out and live free.

Kids don't go bad because their parents hit them. Kids go bad because, at some point in their childhood, their parents stopped hitting them. Of course I'm single and there's only a rumor that there may be 6'5" offspring in Korea and Thailand and the PI, so what the hell do I know ....

Riodog
04-10-2008, 11:51 PM
DFletcher, so this is where you been hidden, I got these legal doc's from Manilla for you but I'm willing to negotiate a reasonable deal on behalf of the lil darling. He really misses his Daddy and I can tell it has traumatized his life in unthinkable ways. For only $250 thou I can make the lad see reason.He just needs a lil to tide him over til his biz picks up a bit. I must say he looks real stunning in heels and lowslung, see though dress.....

Rio.

cbn620
04-11-2008, 1:10 AM
"...I think it's worth trying and seeing what the community's reaction is...", she said.

Get out of my country, you pig.

This is ridiculous. The jackboots come a knockin' with some little plush "voluntary search" program, but what happens when you say "No"? I mean come on, this is just inviting problems for officer misconduct.

guns_and_labs
04-11-2008, 6:40 AM
whats wrong with telling the parents to do their jobs and be a little nosey? all parents should go threw their kids stuff, its called being a parent. and tell them if they find a gun beat their *** and turn the gun in.

Some parents in Oakland are scared to death of the gangsters their kids have become, and are physically incapable of "beating their ***". They need help, as they are now prisoners in their own homes. Sure, it may be their own fault ultimately, but now they are physically and emotionally prisoners.

Don't get me wrong, I don't agree with the program, but I understand the fear that some of these parents have, and how this will appeal to them as a form of rescue or intervention. They surely hope for some kind of intervention that will "help" their kids get on the right road, and the "no prosecution" thing is an excellent selling point, though the fine print makes that ridiculous.

But, of course, it won't work, as they're scared of the po-po, too, and of retaliation after the fact.

WokMaster1
04-11-2008, 9:41 AM
Agreed.
I think the problem lies in the fact that kids have legal recourse these days.
When I grew up, I had no rights until I was 18; and even then, as long as I lived under my parents roof, there was no democracy. It was a dictatorship, and if you did'nt like it, get out and live free.

so true.

you know what works? when CHP started cracking down on every suspected gangbanger mobile in Oakland & Richmond, the ACLU & NAACP cried out saying it was racial. The city folks had no balls to face these allegation & called it off. Yes, there were no shooting during that time.

I would love to see more mobile police stations (4-5 cars, 4 motorbikes & 10 bikes- staffed 24 hours to cover a 20 block radius) set up so a team of cops could patrol a designated area & be familiar with who the trouble makers are & pound on them continuously. If these thugs know that there is always a unit 2-3 blocks away, they will move to Nebraska...

cadurand
04-11-2008, 1:09 PM
St. Louis, Atlanta, Miami, and other cities in Free States won't buy it.Hate to break it to you but St. Louis has already done it. Did you read the actual article?

jacques
04-11-2008, 1:20 PM
Agreed.
I think the problem lies in the fact that kids have legal recourse these days.
When I grew up, I had no rights until I was 18; and even then, as long as I lived under my parents roof, there was no democracy. It was a dictatorship, and if you did'nt like it, get out and live free.

Let my kid sue me, then see where they end up.......

There is no excuse for these parents. Threats or what ever, there are many means to remove a kid from your house. This is about the most pathetic path to illegal search and seizure I have ever heard of. Next thing you know we will have the military going door to door arresting all gun owners.

This is typical of the communist Bay Area Pigs.

Casual Observer
04-11-2008, 10:21 PM
Reading this story makes me want to move out of California and back to the United States of America.

tombinghamthegreat
04-11-2008, 10:40 PM
Reading this story makes me want to move out of California and back to the United States of America.

Moving out of CA won't help since they control a large part of congress and its very possible the next president will be democrat. Time make it clear to California anti gunners if they want to ban our guns they will have to go door to door to get them.

"When they came for the machine guns, I didn't stand up as I wasn't old enough to buy one myself. When they came for the assault weapons, I didn't stand up as I couldn't afford to buy one myself. When they came for the .50 BMGs, I didn't stand up as I didn't think that I would ever need one for myself. Now they are after my handguns and rifles and I fear there aren't any people left to stand up for me"-calguns.net

Ech0Sierra
04-11-2008, 11:20 PM
Time to put this doormat out.
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/510N22VB8XL._SS384_.jpg
http://www.target.com/Come-Back-Warrant-Doormat/dp/B00020O572/sr=1-1/qid=1207981126/ref=sr_1_1/602-6192014-7422269?ie=UTF8&index=target&rh=k%3Awarrant%20doormat&page=1

Codelphious
04-11-2008, 11:49 PM
Ditto. If you don't want the police to search your home or your car, don't give consent.

Exceptions apply if the police already have a warrant, PC or an exception to the 4th applies (exigent circumstance, Readily Mobile Conveyance, hot pursuit, etc.).

What's to stop a cop from being invited into your home to search for guns, then claim he smells marijuana and consents himself a full search of the premise to confiscate guns, ammo, spoons, cash, screwdrivers, or anything else commonly used in the sale/manufacture/use/execution of dugs/burglary?

Come on... this is obviously an unreasonable search, and doesn't even pass the smell test. Can you imagine if police tried this back in the '40s? I can... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Athens)

mymonkeyman
04-12-2008, 12:15 AM
What's to stop a cop from being invited into your home to search for guns, then claim he smells marijuana and consents himself a full search of the premise to confiscate guns, ammo, spoons, cash, screwdrivers, or anything else commonly used in the sale/manufacture/use/execution of dugs/burglary?

Come on... this is obviously an unreasonable search, and doesn't even pass the smell test. Can you imagine if police tried this back in the '40s? I can... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Athens)

Once you have consented to the search, the police can seize any contraband they find. Now generic items like spoons and screwdrivers and cash (within normal amounts) won't pass the smell test for seizure as contraband, but they don't need to make up the marijuana smell to seize any contraband.

DesertGunner
04-12-2008, 8:17 PM
What's to stop a cop from being invited into your home to search for guns, then claim he smells marijuana and consents himself a full search of the premise to confiscate guns, ammo, spoons, cash, screwdrivers, or anything else commonly used in the sale/manufacture/use/execution of dugs/burglary?

Come on... this is obviously an unreasonable search, and doesn't even pass the smell test. Can you imagine if police tried this back in the '40s? I can... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Athens)

I think you are more worried about the cops seizing your tinfoil hat.
:TFH::TFH::TFH::TFH::TFH::TFH:

If you don't want them in the house, don't give consent. It's as simple as that, your irrational belief that the Gestapo is roaming around notwithstanding.

Riodog
04-12-2008, 11:17 PM
I think you are more worried about the cops seizing your tinfoil hat.
:TFH::TFH::TFH::TFH::TFH::TFH:

If you don't want them in the house, don't give consent. It's as simple as that, your irrational belief that the Gestapo is roaming around notwithstanding.

While I'm not too worried about "the cops" as after Katrina I don't know one cop that would obey such an order, I just might be worried about the gov'ment. Most cops have a conscience but the gov'ment damn sure doesn't.
Rio

sned45
04-12-2008, 11:46 PM
Should I hide the dead hooker and blow before giving consent?

thefifthspeed
04-13-2008, 4:24 AM
Should I hide the dead hooker and blow before giving consent?

Just the blow, dead hookers are legal ;)

javalos
04-13-2008, 9:05 AM
No racism intended, but it being Oakland, we all know the cops are not going to be looking for illegal guns in your average white suburban neighborhood. But it shouldn't matter, this is a embryonic beginning of something that can go real bad, a conditioning as someone put it to get people used to the idea of cops going into a home to look for guns is a good thing. Many have asked...Where are the parents? Why do they need cops? Its every parents right to rummage through their kids room if they suspect they have illegal items in there, I also understand the situation with a parent that is a single mom and is afraid of her 230 lb. kid that is packing and has drugs. Its a tough situation, not every home is the same. Still, the city council deciding to make it policy to intrude into homes is way out of line. Decisions like that should be kept between the home owner and police if the homeowner has a out-of-control kid and is afraid of him.

Codelphious
04-13-2008, 12:39 PM
I think you are more worried about the cops seizing your tinfoil hat.
:TFH::TFH::TFH::TFH::TFH::TFH:

If you don't want them in the house, don't give consent. It's as simple as that, your irrational belief that the Gestapo is roaming around notwithstanding.


I certainly wouldn't consent to a search of my house, but as any episode of COPS will show, the police almost *never* tell you the truth when persuading you to agree to a search. I'm only worried about the simple folk that don't understand that saying "Sure, come on in" equates to "arrest me for whatever you can." And in most instances, that's what it comes down to. I've seen people on COPS arrested for carrying less than $100 in cash in $5, $10, and $20 denominations. Apparently those are "commonly used bills in the sale of drugs." Go figure, eh?

Tin foil hat... heh, 'fraid not DesertGunner. I think you just might benefit from a little history lesson.