PDA

View Full Version : Long Range Shooting Sim (demo) - Walkthru - Discussion


Jicko
04-10-2008, 1:00 PM
Long Range Shooting Sim (demo)
http://www.shooterready.com/lrsdemolow.html

I had some questions about some of them....

For target C, it is @ 920yds, 15mph FULL wind.

I dialed in
> 31.25MOA elevation, according to the table 900-30.25 950-33.5
> 13MOA windage, 900-7.6"/1mph-wind 950-8.7"/1mph-wind, so I figured 8"/1mph, x15 = 120"/9.2 = 13

And.... I missed....

Can someone WALK ME THRU, what I missed?????


Then I noticed the table is 59F/78%-hum/500ft-alt, and the range condition is 86F/40%-hum/2500ft-alt. Now, HOW can I adjust for this????????

PistolPete75
04-10-2008, 1:06 PM
did you see where your shot landed? were you high, low, left, or right? and by how much were you off?

Jicko
04-10-2008, 1:27 PM
did you see where your shot landed? were you high, low, left, or right? and by how much were you off?

Impact @ Upper Left. 1/2 mil up and 1/2 mil left.

rksimple
04-10-2008, 1:31 PM
The altitude and the heat (compared to your card) made you go high. Perhaps you misjudged the wind. I think that program only has a few wind values, like 5, 10, and 15, just different directions.

As far as compensating for it, it depends on YOUR load.

PistolPete75
04-10-2008, 1:32 PM
there's your answer.

1 mill= 3.438moa

convert the 1/2 mill to moa which is roughly 1.75moa. adjust 1.75 moa down on elevation, and 1.75moa to the right on windage.

scewper
04-10-2008, 1:34 PM
It's not exactly 9.2"/MOA at 920 yards, it's closer to like 9.6ish... I think. So your calculation would probably be closer to 12.5MOA.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong here.

PistolPete75
04-10-2008, 1:35 PM
for the summer matches, best thing to do is shoot at the range before attending the match. if you can't do that, then shoot in similar conditions which the main points being elevation and temperature. keep that dope for your match, and you'll be in good shape. that is the most simpliest way of doing it in my opinion.

Jicko
04-10-2008, 1:36 PM
The thing is....

I know HOW to hold over AFTER the first shot...

I want to be able to dial in and get a HIT...

Given ONLY the limited "card" (info)..... what can I do to my calculation so that i can figure out the right numbers to dial in???

rksimple
04-10-2008, 1:37 PM
for the summer matches, best thing to do is shoot at the range before attending the match. if you can't do that, then shoot in similar conditions which the main points being elevation and temperature. keep that dope for your match, and you'll be in good shape. that is the most simpliest way of doing it in my opinion.

And if you have a weather station (Kestrel, etc.) pay attention to pressure and temperature. You can forget about elevation if you use station pressure.

PistolPete75
04-10-2008, 1:37 PM
It's not exactly 9.2"/MOA at 920 yards, it's closer to like 9.6ish... I think. So your calculation would probably be closer to 12.5MOA.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong here.

depends if it's shooter's or true moa. that's why i prefer to shoot with a scope in mills for long range. it's so much easier to recalculate with a scope in mills. but the bad side is that it's harder to shoot smaller targets with .1 mill adjustments rather then 1/4moa adjustments.

PistolPete75
04-10-2008, 1:42 PM
The thing is....

I know HOW to hold over AFTER the first shot...

I want to be able to dial in and get a HIT...

Given ONLY the limited "card" (info)..... what can I do to my calculation so that i can figure out the right numbers to dial in???

another simple solution. shoot paper in 100yard increments to 1k. look for center mass hits as your "dope"

wildcard
04-10-2008, 1:43 PM
Well I don't know what you did to calculate your wind because you didn't include value labels.

I can at least tell you that you shot high because you didn't account for the higher elevation and temperature.

If you're interested in those calculations, get your load data and then pump it into JBM and then change the temperature by 10 degree increments (0 - 110 degrees should have you well covered) and repeat. Then do it for elevation by 1000 ft increments (0 - 10,000 ft should have you well covered) and repeat.

Look at the numbers and extrapolate a simple formula you can remember or plot down on a chart to account for MOA or MIL differences at each range/ distance.

rksimple
04-10-2008, 1:45 PM
The thing is....

I know HOW to hold over AFTER the first shot...

I want to be able to dial in and get a HIT...

Given ONLY the limited "card" (info)..... what can I do to my calculation so that i can figure out the right numbers to dial in???

Buy the program. They have a classroom section where you learn all of that. The way temp and pressure mess with your bullet is dependent on your load. They may have written the program for a generic load that does not apply to yours at all. For example, temperature sensitive powders.

Jicko
04-10-2008, 1:49 PM
By the way, ANYONE bought that program?? Is it worth it?

PistolPete75
04-10-2008, 1:52 PM
you may want to look for a pda version, so you can take it with you on the field. i know nayt is happy with his nightforce version.

Jicko
04-10-2008, 1:57 PM
The CORRECT answer for the target C is 29.25 elev 10.75 wind.

Even if i were given 920yards.... I couldn't FIGURE OUT 29.25 and 10.75...

Can someone shed some light?????? *puzzled*

Range card said (Range/ElvMOA/Inches drift 1mph Wind) @ 59F/78%/500ft
900 30.25 7.6
950 33.5 8.7

Target C 920yds @ 86F/40%/2500ft, with 15mph FULL wind

How the heck do you get 29.25 elev!!?!??! and 10.75 wind???

PS. how do people shoot "1 shot 1 hit", if they only have pen and paper and no PDA?

PistolPete75
04-10-2008, 2:00 PM
that was basically my answer based on your call at 1/2 mill too high and 1/2 to the left. which in fact was more than 1/2 mill to the left.

goes back to the issue of correctly judging your missed call to correctly and accurately recalculate to hold over or readjust your turrets. a good spotter makes on hell of a difference.

Jicko
04-10-2008, 2:06 PM
that was basically my answer based on your call at 1/2 mill too high and 1/2 to the left. which in fact was more than 1/2 mill to the left.

goes back to the issue of correctly judging your missed call to correctly and accurately recalculate to hold over or readjust your turrets. a good spotter makes on hell of a difference.

But I am trying to figure out how to get the correct elev/wind the first time.... as Timberwolf said.... "1 shot 1 hit".... rather than.... "spray pray, and readjuest" (generally... it is not really *spray*.... but... enough to MISS the 20"x40" target @ 920yds.

PistolPete75
04-10-2008, 2:09 PM
and then it goes back to just practice shooting. i haven't seen 1 match where a shooter hit 100% of his targets. again, it comes to experience which means round count. knowing your equipment and your load being a constant, shoot the hell out of it and keep good notes.

Prc329
04-10-2008, 2:09 PM
What's the velocity of the bullet? BC?

wildcard
04-10-2008, 2:10 PM
Like we've said before, it depends on your load. For 920 yds based on your card, I would have used 31.5 MOA. Given the ~2000 higher elevation, subtract 1 MOA at that distance. Given the higher temperature, subract another 1.5 MOA at that distance.

I would have used 29 MOA. Screw humidity.

PistolPete75
04-10-2008, 2:11 PM
bc and velocity is unknown. it's a computer game.

Timberwolf
04-10-2008, 2:11 PM
Just don't become too dependant on that simulator - its great to learn windage etc but in reality while similar its nothing compared to real world where you also have thermals, time of day and location of the sun, yaw effect and other little sundry things to worry about besides come ups and wind.

wildcard
04-10-2008, 2:11 PM
and then it goes back to just practice shooting. i haven't seen 1 match where a shooter hit 100% of his targets. again, it comes to experience which means round count. knowing your equipment and your load being a constant, shoot the hell out of it and keep good notes.

Mental notes baby :)

Jicko
04-10-2008, 2:11 PM
What's the velocity of the bullet? BC?

http://www.shooterready.com/lrsdemolow.html

It is this game.... (not really...)

Bullet data:
.308 175gr
MV 2635fps
site height 2.6"
BC .495

Jicko
04-10-2008, 2:17 PM
Like we've said before, it depends on your load. For 920 yds based on your card, I would have used 31.5 MOA. Given the ~2000 higher elevation, subtract 1 MOA at that distance. Given the higher temperature, subract another 1.5 MOA at that distance.

I would have used 29 MOA. Screw humidity.

These are the things i dunno and i WANT to know....

I used 31.75 elev and I missed.

You used 29, you would have scored a HIT. These are what i am MISSING. Where can I find guidelines as to +~2000 altitude = -1 MOA at that distance? Also, where can I find guidelines as to + that temp = -1.5MOA?

I want formulas.... or... tables... or guidelines.... :confused:
(there HAVE to be some formulas...... JBM can calculate quite accurately the bullet drop....)

Anyone got links to them(formulas)???

I m not trying to become too dependent on this sim... I just noticed that if I got thrown into the range with this conditions etc... I would have the SAME trouble dialing in... if I can't shoot sighter shots and then readjust..... SO, I am trying to LEARN.... at least with a theoretical approach first...

TWolf: you had been a great teacher, I noticed myself observing a lot more than before after your class.... but yet, I think I am still missing some fundamentals....

PistolPete75
04-10-2008, 2:27 PM
Well I don't know what you did to calculate your wind because you didn't include value labels.

I can at least tell you that you shot high because you didn't account for the higher elevation and temperature.

If you're interested in those calculations, get your load data and then pump it into JBM and then change the temperature by 10 degree increments (0 - 110 degrees should have you well covered) and repeat. Then do it for elevation by 1000 ft increments (0 - 10,000 ft should have you well covered) and repeat.

Look at the numbers and extrapolate a simple formula you can remember or plot down on a chart to account for MOA or MIL differences at each range/ distance.

pay attention to what Jason said.

What your trying to do is to draw a formula on long distance shooting, but in the real world that is no so simple. Winds travel in numerous directions, and the ground itself may be uncomfortable to shoot on top. You just have to adapt, and use your "base" dope and readjust accordingly if you miss. You can't put this sport into a "box" and simply always make hits.

There are also other factors which include stress, fatigue, etc that may affect your trigger pull. Also confidence in shooting your shot goes a long way.

wildcard
04-10-2008, 2:30 PM
These are the things i dunno and i WANT to know....

I used 31.75 elev and I missed.

You used 29, you would have scored a HIT. These are what i am MISSING. Where can I find guidelines as to +~2000 altitude = -1 MOA at that distance? Also, where can I find guidelines as to + that temp = -1.5MOA?

I want formulas.... or... tables... or guidelines.... :confused:
(there HAVE to be some formulas...... JBM can calculate quite accurately the bullet drop....)

Anyone got links to them(formulas)???

I m not trying to become too dependent on this sim... I just noticed that if I got thrown into the range with this conditions etc... I would have the SAME trouble dialing in... if I can't shoot sighter shots and then readjust..... SO, I am trying to LEARN.... at least with a theoretical approach first...

TWolf: you had been a great teacher, I noticed myself observing a lot more than before after your class.... but yet, I think I am still missing some fundamentals....

There are "rules of thumb" on how to do it as found in some sniper log books.. but get the figures yourself. The method that I use in on post #12 (which Peter just quoted in the thread above this one) of this thread which yields better custom results. It'll take you no longer than an hour sitting in front of JBM and Excel. I actually have a spreadsheet that I use to autmatically calculate shooting at various angles, moving targets at various speeds, holdovers, and etc depending on your actual dopes rounded to the nearest .25 where applicable of course. I think I may take some time to make it look pretty and post it for all to use and enjoy.

Jicko
04-10-2008, 2:35 PM
There are "rules of thumb" on how to do it as found in some sniper log books.. but get the figures yourself. The method that I use in on post #12 (which Peter just quoted in the thread above this one) of this thread which yields better custom results. It'll take you no longer than an hour sitting in front of JBM and Excel. I actually have a spreadsheet that I use to autmatically calculate shooting at various angles, moving targets at various speeds, holdovers, and etc depending on your actual dopes rounded to the nearest .25 where applicable of course. I think I may take some time to make it look pretty and post it for all to use and enjoy.

I heard what you said, and you bet it, I will be doing that..... as soon as I nailed down a MV..... (43.0gr RL15/FED210M gives me 2700fps ES19 SD7.2, but I want to play around with a few varying powder wt...)

Please make your xls available if you are willing to share... or you can just send it to me... I don't care about if it is ugly.... I just want some template to refer to....

PS. One last thing about JBM.... I can only put in the "current" temp/hum etc... but I couldn't put in the condition when I acquired the MV, and have it project how the temp/humidity is going to affect the end results.... :-(

wildcard
04-10-2008, 2:41 PM
I heard what you said, and you bet it, I will be doing that..... as soon as I nailed down a MV..... (43.0gr RL15/FED210M gives me 2700fps ES19 SD7.2, but I want to play around with a few varying powder wt...)

Please make your xls available if you are willing to share... or you can just send it to me... I don't care about if it is ugly.... I just want some template to refer to....

Will do. I'm leaving for Florida for a week so I'll take care of it when I get back. Yeah.. first thing is first.. settle on a load and practice. There's really no other way to calculate how wind effects you except through computer generated models for a particular load.

I can tell you Ryan's adjustment's for wind using a 155 Scenar is about .66% of what I have to use for my 168 SMK.

wildcard
04-10-2008, 2:44 PM
PS. One last thing about JBM.... I can only put in the "current" temp/hum etc... but I couldn't put in the condition when I acquired the MV, and have it project how the temp/humidity is going to affect the end results.... :-(

Leave EVERYTHING the same. Change only temperature or change only elevation. Copy and Paste the printed MOA adjustment into Excel side by side and see how the SINGLE change that you made effected the difference in MOA.

Let me just add that this is by no means the official way to do things. It's just how I do it. If somebody has a better idea, i'm all ears.

Timberwolf
04-10-2008, 2:49 PM
Let me just add that this is by no means the official way to do things. It's just how I do it. If somebody has a better idea, i'm all ears.

Get the 5.11 watch - everything you need right there on your wrist.

PistolPete75
04-10-2008, 2:57 PM
see i keep talking about the gps ammo. how huge would that be?

wildcard
04-10-2008, 3:01 PM
Get the 5.11 watch - everything you need right there on your wrist.

That sure takes the fun out of it. As far as equipment goes, I like relying on nothing but myself, rifle, and ammo. Maybe that's why I keep missing..

Timberwolf
04-10-2008, 3:07 PM
That sure takes the fun out of it. As far as equipment goes, I like relying on nothing but myself, rifle, and ammo. Maybe that's why I keep missing..

OH I have a back up cheat sheet in my data book cover along with my mil-dot master and slope doper. But I rely on my watch 99% of the time and (knocking on wooden desk) its never let me down. Also been shooting the same load for so damn long pretty well have everything out to 600 memorized.

wildcard
04-10-2008, 3:11 PM
OH I have a back up cheat sheet in my data book cover along with my mil-dot master and slope doper. But I rely on my watch 99% of the time and (knocking on wooden desk) its never let me down. Also been shooting the same load for so damn long pretty well have everything out to 600 memorized.

Haha.. and what about 601 to 1000? What is it that they say about "teaching new tricks?" :D

rksimple
04-10-2008, 3:15 PM
I've been playing with Field Firing Solutions, a program like atrag that will calculate based on current conditions...provided your battery is working. The thing I like about it is that it has the ability to "learn" your bullet. Not like JBM where you get a printout and find that it doesn't exactly match up. In this program, you input real world dope data given current conditions, and it will learn your bullet and predict more accurately what will happen when conditions change. Living and shooting up here at 4000' ASL, I see a lot of difference in my real world data when I go to APS or Sac Valley. We'll see how the program does. Its free for 30 days.

Conversely, you could play with JBM to match real world results, and then carry a bunch of printouts for different conditions.

Timberwolf
04-10-2008, 3:49 PM
Haha.. and what about 601 to 1000? What is it that they say about "teaching new tricks?" :D

On the few occassions when I get beyond 600 (and I don't count spanking the buff - can do that by heart) I use my watch and talk sweet to Savannah unless I'm somewhere like Sac or 29 Palms then I depend on the pit guy to mark my sighter.

Jicko
04-10-2008, 3:52 PM
see i keep talking about the gps ammo. how huge would that be?

The doppler effect of the speed of the bullet make GPS signal acquisition impossible.

PistolPete75
04-10-2008, 4:00 PM
The doppler effect of the speed of the bullet make GPS signal acquisition impossible.

it's just a joke.

ar15barrels
04-10-2008, 9:28 PM
the bad side is that it's harder to shoot smaller targets with .1 mill adjustments rather then 1/4moa adjustments.

Have you really noticed the difference between 1/4 MOA and 1/3 MOA clicks on small targets, or are you just talking theory?

ar15barrels
04-10-2008, 9:31 PM
One last thing about JBM.... I can only put in the "current" temp/hum etc... but I couldn't put in the condition when I acquired the MV, and have it project how the temp/humidity is going to affect the end results.... :-(

Quicktarget allows you to input the "zero conditions" as well as current conditions and will give you data that's offset accordingly.
It also does velocity threshold BC's. ;)

ar15barrels
04-10-2008, 9:34 PM
The doppler effect of the speed of the bullet make GPS signal acquisition impossible.

That's why they still laser guide munitions. ;)

yallknowho
04-10-2008, 9:40 PM
By the way, ANYONE bought that program?? Is it worth it?

I bought it. It's like 50 bucks and is a good sim. I haven't spent extensive time with it though.

ar15barrels
04-10-2008, 9:50 PM
By the way, ANYONE bought that program?? Is it worth it?

I used to shoot with Stewart Wilson almost almost every month before he moved out of state.
He's the guy that developed the program and he's one hell of a shooter to boot.

If you choose to buy it, your money is going to a good guy. ;)

PistolPete75
04-11-2008, 7:09 PM
Have you really noticed the difference between 1/4 MOA and 1/3 MOA clicks on small targets, or are you just talking theory?

It's a piece of mind thing for me. When the target is at untypical distances like 330yards, 440yards, 660yards, etc. I wish I could go in between adjustments for my peace of mind. So far, I haven't noticed a huge difference, but at the same time I only shot through my new scope for a few months. I haven't noticed a difference at 500yards or less. At 600yards, it's a little iffy. I think I can get more consistant shots if I could go inbetween an adjustment. When your shooting 168s your dope at 600yards and beyond has to be perfect. There isn't too much room for error. It's always better to have a center mass hit dope, rather than something that can work but with a little or no room for error. It can possibly be the difference between a hit or miss. It's like when you shoot too much steel at a large target and can't see where your hits are at. You may hit it on the bottom or way on the top, but that wouldn't be considered a solid dope especially at 600yards plus. What would happen if the target was smaller at a match or something? You would be scratching your head figuring what went wrong. I still remember my old dope at 800yards on my old 700p, 24.75moa would always be a hit. I guess what I'm trying to say is, if you have a perfect dope your chance of hitting it will increase and will increase your allowance for error and even more so in a smaller target where there is limited space, i.e. a 2moa target at 800yards. Ever hit a target at the very end in a match or barely missed it by a hair? That's a hit or miss.

rksimple
04-11-2008, 7:24 PM
It's a piece of mind thing for me. When the target is at untypical distances like 330yards, 440yards, 660yards, etc. I wish I could go in between adjustments for my peace of mind. So far, I haven't noticed a huge difference, but at the same time I only shot through my new scope for a few months. I haven't noticed a difference at 500yards or less. At 600yards, it's a little iffy. I think I can get more consistant shots if I could go inbetween an adjustment. When your shooting 168s your dope at 600yards and beyond has to be perfect. There isn't too much room for error. It's always better to have a center mass hit dope, rather than something that can work but with a little or no room for error. It can possibly be the difference between a hit or miss.

I wouldn't worry about it much, Pete. Your scope is perfect for what we do. I've heard it said that you should never get a scope (for tac purposes) that adjusts in increments at 100 yards smaller than bullet diameter. So you're just about perfect with .1mil.

PistolPete75
04-11-2008, 7:38 PM
I wouldn't worry about it much, Pete. Your scope is perfect for what we do. I've heard it said that you should never get a scope (for tac purposes) that adjusts in increments at 100 yards smaller than bullet diameter. So you're just about perfect with .1mil.

I completely understand, but it's an anal thing with me. Too many times, I was barely in the target by a hairline. Again, it's just me being anal. Sometimes in a match, the point spread is very narrow like 50 points and you have like 5 guys in that spread. Every little bit helps. This sport is similar to car racing. Every little bit helps and sometimes that's all the difference.

Jicko
04-11-2008, 8:27 PM
I completely understand, but it's an anal thing with me. Too many times, I was barely in the target by a hairline. Again, it's just me being anal. Sometimes in a match, the point spread is very narrow like 50 points and you have like 5 guys in that spread. Every little bit helps. This sport is similar to car racing. Every little bit helps and sometimes that's all the difference.

+1

I love you guys just cuz you guys dun seems to be too annoyed by my anal-ness, stubbornness on my quest to find the perfect load...

:p

PistolPete75
04-11-2008, 8:45 PM
I can understand that, but finding a load that is good enough will be good enough. Performance may vary from lot to lot, so finding a perfect load that will perform the exact same way every time is nearly impossible. It's a benchrester thing to spend too much more time reloading then shooting. I used to spend countless hours reloading, I do the bare minimum now. Tumble, prime, charge, and seat. Ryan's tip on not having to trim after every firing saved me tons of time of not having to debur and chamfer. Less time reloading means more time shooting and more free time at home.

Jicko
04-11-2008, 8:55 PM
I can understand that, but finding a load that is good enough will be good enough. Performance may vary from lot to lot, so finding a perfect load that will perform the exact same way every time is nearly impossible. It's a benchrester thing to spend too much more time reloading then shooting. I used to spend countless hours reloading, I do the bare minimum now. Tumble, prime, charge, and seat. Ryan's tip on not having to trim after every firing saved me tons of time of not having to debur and chamfer. Less time reloading means more time shooting and more free time at home.

I really don't want to spend much time on this, IF I CAN......... I just want a load that is accurate and consistant with my rifles...

I want a .308 load for my 700PSS and a .223 load for my SPR.... then I am DONE.... I will just make tons of them and just stock pile them.... I always believe in "1 ammo".... for each caliber.... and I will just zero all my guns to that ONE...

PistolPete75
04-11-2008, 8:59 PM
makes good sense. any good component will perform well. i like to load up like 150-200 pieces if time permits. i like to get it all done, and not have to worry about reloading everytime before i want to shoot. you should make a trip up here. mayby we can make a calguns shoot day before the scprc match starts. go shootn and go drinkn. it'll be fun.

ocabj
04-11-2008, 9:37 PM
Jicko,

Have you been shooting the 3x600 at Pendleton regularly? A few more F-Class shooters have been showing up to those matches as of late. If you want to get better at shooting in wind, Pendleton is a great venue, especially the 3x600.

For one, you shoot 3 strings of 22 rounds (2 sighters, 20 shots for record). Two, you shoot those strings at different times of the day, so you're going to get different wind conditions. Three, people have a tendency to have problems with the wind at Wilcox Range 103. Historically, I've had no issues, but many of the Master and High Master shooters have noted to me that the wind changes at Pendleton can be so subtle that you don't see them and it costs you points. Thus, this is perfect real world practice.

As far as shooting in any NRA HP format with 2 sighters before the rounds for record (Across the Course, midrange prone, long range, F-Class), do not rely on your sighters. Lots of shooters will make a quick guess and just pull the trigger on the first sighter knowing that they can make an adjustment and confirm with the second sighter. The good shooters will make the most educated guess that gets them close to center as possible with the goal of getting the X-ring shot on the first shot/sighter and reconfirming with the second.

There's an NRA Regional at Pendleton on April 26. I don't know if she'll be there, but Michelle Gallagher was there last year. If she's at the match, you'll definitely want to watch her shoot her slow fire prone string at 600 yards. Just set up a spotting scope behind her and watch the mirage and range flags during her string and when she takes each shot. Also note if she takes more time between specific shots and see if it correlates to a change in the mirage or flags.

This will give you a lot of insight into wind changes and wind discipline. While it's not the tactical/practical shooting that you're into, the repeatability of making accurate shots in a set time period has the same important fundamentals of wind reading that you will desire for tactical long range.

PistolPete75
04-11-2008, 10:49 PM
take advantage of that 600yard fclass, jicko. if i was next to camp pendleton i would take full advantage of that. would be nice if there was something like that around where i live.

Jicko
04-11-2008, 11:05 PM
I haven't been there *regularly* enough.... I was there a couple of times...

3x600 is DEFINITELY an experience.... I learnt a lot from my outings out there...

I haven't got the chance to go into the pit yet, and i really need to LEARN that... or else I am kinda nervous not being able to post results for others quick enough....

Also, I am STILL having trouble with my SPR... either it is the gun or it is my ammo... I am not getting consistant results.... and accuracy suffers.... once i weeded out that issue, I will be going to Pendleton a lot more....

ar15barrels
04-12-2008, 12:13 AM
it's an anal thing with me.

Oh no, not again.
I thought you got over that. ;)

PistolPete75
04-12-2008, 11:29 AM
Oh no, not again.
I thought you got over that. ;)


LOL.