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t0kie
04-10-2008, 10:46 AM
I went to my local FFL dealer to pick up my SA Loaded SS and he told me DOJ denied my DROS, and gave me the paper (it says "Do not release the firearms because purchaser is prohibited/ineligible to posses firearm") with the phone# to call because he doesn't know why?

FYI: I have nothing to hide, no criminal record at all (not even a traffic ticket), never have problems with the law & totally legal here in US (permanent resident).

I was so upset, imagine that waiting for 10 days (yeah, that's the law here in California) plus another 3 days (since the store open 3 days after my 10 days period ended). I'm trying to think what's the problem, because I cannot call since they are closed already (6:30PM at that time I went to the local FFL). i really like it & do not want to refund it to the original seller (if possible).

So, this morning finally I can call them, and the reason is: my Green Card/Permanent Resident is too new (approved on 3/4/2008) that makes me consider as less than 90 days to be a resident of CA??? I tried to explain that I've been here in CA since 1999 and maintained my status as H-1B visa (non immigrant worker visa) while my adjustment of status to be a permanent resident was still in process, but she doesn't care, and she said nothing wrong with my background check, I just need to wait 90 days from 3/4/2008 to be able buy my firearm ??? I means that I have to wait until after 6/4/2008 By that time it may be already kill my interest on shooting on the range.

Anyone knows about firearms law, can you please give me suggestion if there is anything I can do, especially people from DOJ may be?


Also, the handgun I purchased from gunbroker.com, not from the same FFL dealer that did my DROS, so I also don't what to do with the handgun, is it possible for the same local FFL to keep it for me until after 6/4/2008 when I can re-do the DROS again?

Thank you in advance.
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bwiese
04-10-2008, 10:54 AM
Grin and bear it.

Make arrangements with the FFL to retain your gun until your 90 day green card residency hits.

You'll have to re-DROS again.

t0kie
04-10-2008, 10:55 AM
Grin and bear it.

Make arrangements with the FFL to retain your gun until your 90 day green card residency hits.

You'll have to re-DROS again.

Yeah, that is where I'm standing right now :(
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gose
04-10-2008, 10:56 AM
It sounds a bit weird, but I'm guessing that if you didn't supply them with your old I94, the check against the immigration database (which they do for non-us citizens) will fail, since they can't see from your green card that you have been living here for almost 9 years.
I havent seen anything that says that changing visa status would reset the 90 day counter, but since I assume this got bounced back by the feds, you probably want to check with them, rather than with DOJ.

Satex
04-10-2008, 10:57 AM
Congratulations on becoming a permanent resident. Unfortunately, up to that point, you were a "resident alien" and did not have residency status - so it doesn't count. Now that you are a permanent resident, just wait out the 90 days and you are good to go. If you think you will lose interest because you have to wait 60 days, then they are doing you a favor as you are sure to lose interest shortly after you go to the range a couple of time.

t0kie
04-10-2008, 10:59 AM
How about the my handgun? What is the legal ownership while I'm waiting to re-do DROS again? FFL cannot sell it , can they? How can I make sure that my gun still there after 6/4/2008? 2 months is a long time to wait for me :(
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blackhawk411
04-10-2008, 11:03 AM
Is it paid off? If it's been paid off why would they sell it?

t0kie
04-10-2008, 11:07 AM
It sounds a bit weird, but I'm guessing that if you didn't supply them with your old I94, the check against the immigration database (which they do for non-us citizens) will fail, since they can't see from your green card that you have been living here for almost 9 years.
I havent seen anything that says that changing visa status would reset the 90 day counter, but since I assume this got bounced back by the feds, you probably want to check with them, rather than with DOJ.


Good point, I may try that I94, may be ?
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ke6guj
04-10-2008, 11:08 AM
Like bill said, go talk with the FFL and let them know whats up. And find out what it will cost to have the store it for you for two months.

If you paid for it from the gunbroker guy directly, you should have legal ownership. You just don't have legal possession of it. The FFl has legal possession of it right now and technically could sell it, but I think they would be liable to you for the value of the gun.

Bottom line, go see the FFL and work it out.

mymonkeyman
04-10-2008, 11:08 AM
Does anyone know where this 90 days thing comes from? It seems kind of artificial and for other purposes (such as the DMV), the state considers you to become a resident a lot quicker than that.

t0kie
04-10-2008, 11:08 AM
Is it paid off? If it's been paid off why would they sell it?

Yes it's paid off.
I thought they may sell it since it said on the paper that I'm consider ineligible/prohibited to posses??
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t0kie
04-10-2008, 11:11 AM
Does anyone know where this 90 days thing comes from? It seems kind of artificial and for other purposes (such as the DMV), the state considers you to become a resident a lot quicker than that.


I guess that part that we have to show proof of residency: the latest 3 months of utility bill?
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mymonkeyman
04-10-2008, 11:21 AM
I guess that part that we have to show proof of residency: the latest 3 months of utility bill?

It's not the latest 3 months of utility bill, only a single utility that is not more than 3 months old. And you can use other things like a lease agreement, etc. Plus, the DOJ does not get a copy of the secondary proof of residence with the DROS, this denial is due to some internal policy of the DOJ. I am wondering what basis in law there is for that policy, as I am thinking there is none.

t0kie
04-10-2008, 11:28 AM
It's not the latest 3 months of utility bill, only a single utility that is not more than 3 months old. And you can use other things like a lease agreement, etc. Plus, the DOJ does not get a copy of the secondary proof of residence with the DROS, this denial is due to some internal policy of the DOJ. I am wondering what basis in law there is for that policy, as I am thinking there is none.

Hm, the local FFL that I'm dealing with asked & made copies of my utility bills from Jan to March 08.
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razorx
04-10-2008, 11:30 AM
residency means different things to different state departments. for college, residency is one year (in-state tuition).

gose
04-10-2008, 11:42 AM
It's not the latest 3 months of utility bill, only a single utility that is not more than 3 months old. And you can use other things like a lease agreement, etc. Plus, the DOJ does not get a copy of the secondary proof of residence with the DROS, this denial is due to some internal policy of the DOJ. I am wondering what basis in law there is for that policy, as I am thinking there is none.

No, it's not a DOJ thing. It's a federal requirement.

As per ATF:
Non-immigrant alien: You need to be a resident of a state for 90 consecutive days and hold a valid hunting license, or a waiver from the Federal DOJ, if you want to possess, or purchase firearms
Resident alien: You need to be a resident of a state for 90 days, before you can possess and purchase firearms.

If you're not a US citizen, this gets checked against immigration and visa records as part of the background check.

Nowhere does it say that the 90 days for a resident alien starts when you get your green card, so it sounds like it might be possible to get it through, with supporting documentation (old I94 etc), but since this "fight" most likely would have to be with ATF, I see it as unlikely to be resolved in two months anyway....

mymonkeyman
04-10-2008, 11:43 AM
Hm, the local FFL that I'm dealing with asked & made copies of my utility bills from Jan to March 08.

Yes almost every FFL I have ever dealt with fails to understand the CA or federal law in some aspect. Here's the actual regulation. (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/chapter4.pdf)

mymonkeyman
04-10-2008, 11:45 AM
No, it's not a DOJ thing. It's a federal requirement.

As per ATF:
Non-immigrant alien: You need to be a resident of a state for 90 consecutive days and hold a valid hunting license, or a waiver from the Federal DOJ, if you want to possess, or purchase firearms
Resident alien: You need to be a resident of a state for 90 days, before you can possess and purchase firearms.

If you're not a US citizen, this gets checked against immigration and visa records as part of the background check.

Good to know it's a federal thing rather than the DOJ making something up.

t0kie
04-10-2008, 12:33 PM
I just called the DOJ again, different person-and she was nice, trying to help me by checking if the residency can be based on I-94 & will call me back. So I'm crossing my fingers now waiting...
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AKman
04-10-2008, 12:50 PM
I means that I have to wait until after 6/4/2008 By that time it may be already kill my interest on shooting on the range.

Patience Grasshopper.

The range will still be there. It will still be fun. And if you really want the gun for self protection, remember that when seconds count, the police are only minutes away.

mecam
04-10-2008, 1:13 PM
If you are not a US Citizen, the FFL requires that you provide your latest 3 months of utility bill under your name matching the address on your DL before they submit your DROS. Did they do that?

edsel6502
04-10-2008, 1:29 PM
As I know it.

If you are a non-resident and you leave the country. The law states that you have to demonstrate that you've been in the country for 90 days. It is irrelevant that you've been in the country for x number of years. 90 days from the date of your last entry.

As for the greencard. I guess you are stuck if the rules say 90 days. You've waited 9 years. 90 days ain't going to kill you.

elSquid
04-10-2008, 1:51 PM
If you are not a US Citizen, the FFL requires that you provide your latest 3 months of utility bill under your name matching the address on your DL before they submit your DROS. Did they do that?

You don't have to use utility bills. I use credit card statements.

http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b13

-- Michael

t0kie
04-10-2008, 2:11 PM
If you are not a US Citizen, the FFL requires that you provide your latest 3 months of utility bill under your name matching the address on your DL before they submit your DROS. Did they do that?


Yes, they did & got what they wanted it.
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t0kie
04-10-2008, 2:13 PM
As I know it.

If you are a non-resident and you leave the country. The law states that you have to demonstrate that you've been in the country for 90 days....

Yes, last time I entered US (SFO Airport) was on 10/20/2008, and I have the I-94 that has the Immigration Stamp, including the date.
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mecam
04-10-2008, 2:16 PM
You don't have to use utility bills. I use credit card statements.

http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b13

-- Michael

Uhhh, I'm not sure about using credit card statements in California...

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dlrfaqs.php#33G

What documentation is acceptable to demonstrate proof of residency for handgun purchasers?


Utility bill from within the past three months that bears on its face the individual's name and either of the following:
The individual's current residential address as declared on the Dealer's Record of Sale (DROS) form

or

The individual's residential address as it appears on his or her California Driver License or California Identification Card, or change of address attachment thereto.

"Utility bill" means a statement of charges for providing service to the individual's residence by either a physical connection (i.e., hard wired telephone connection or cable connection, or a water or gas pipeline connection) or a telemetric connection (i.e., satellite television or radio broadcast service) to a non-mobile, fixed antenna reception device.

Residential lease that bears the individual's name and either of the following:
The individual's current residential address as declared on the Dealer's Record of Sale (DROS) form
or

The individual's address as it appears on his or her California Driver License or California Identification card, or change of address attachment thereto.
"Residential lease" means either of the following:

A signed and dated contract by which the individual (tenant)agrees to pay a specified monetary sum or provide other consideration for the right to occupy an abode for a specified period of time
or

A signed and dated rental agreement by which the individual (tenant) agrees to pay a specified monetary sum or provide other consideration at fixed intervals for the right to occupy an abode.
Property deed the bears the individual's name and either of the following:
The individual's current residential address as declared on the Dealer's Record of Sale (DROS) form
or

The individual's address as it appears on his or her California Driver License or California Identification Card, or change of address attachment thereto.
"Property deed" means either or the following:

A valid deed of trust for the individual's property of current residence that identifies the individual as a grantee of the trust
or

A valid Certificate of title issued by a licensed title insurance company that identifies the individual as a title holder to his or her property of current residence.
Current, government-issued license, permit, or registration, other than a CA Driver License or CA Identification Card, that has a specified expiration date or period of validity. The license, permit, or registration must bear the individual's name and either of the following:
The individual's current residential address as declared on the Dealer's Record of Sale (DROS) form
or

The individual's address as it appears on his or her California Driver License or California Identification Card, or change of address attachment thereto.
Examples of acceptable proof of residency:

Current DMV registrations.
Electricity, gas, cable bill with purchaser's name onit from within the last 3 months.
Signed, dated and notarized rental agreement/contract.

Examples of documents that are NOT acceptable proof of residency:

Hunting or fishing license (these documents are not issued by the government).
Cellular phone bill.

Sgt Raven
04-10-2008, 2:19 PM
Yes, last time I entered US (SFO Airport) was on 10/20/2008, and I have the I-94 that has the Immigration Stamp, including the date.


You got that time machine working already? :p

t0kie
04-10-2008, 2:23 PM
You got that time machine working already? :p


Oups, sorry, I mean 10/20/2007 (not 2008)
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mecam
04-10-2008, 2:23 PM
Yes, last time I entered US (SFO Airport) was on 10/20/2008, and I have the I-94 that has the Immigration Stamp, including the date.

You meant 10/20/2007? If you have I-94, you should be good to go with that ID.

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/infobuls/0301.pdf

t0kie
04-10-2008, 2:31 PM
Rick, thanks for the link.

The woman from DOJ hasn't called me back yet. Hopefully I can solve it with my I-94.
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elSquid
04-10-2008, 2:36 PM
I'm not sure about that in California...

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dlrfaqs.php#14G

Yes, but those rules aren't specific to non-citizens, and are for handguns.

AFAIK, the citizen/non-citizen distinction is primarily at the federal level.

Non-citizens, whether buying handguns or longarms, must satisfy the fed rules as well as any state laws. So for example, if one is buying a rifle, he still needs to provide the 90 day proof of residency as specified by the guidelines. A citizen wouldn't need to do this.

-- Michael

packnrat
04-10-2008, 5:21 PM
why not just become a legale U.S citizen?:confused:

denounce were you came from and take the oath,
and become a part the country you have chosen live in??




:TFH:


.

WokMaster1
04-10-2008, 5:50 PM
what others have said here. Just be patient & wait 90 days. In the meantime, you can fill the void with an airsoft piece.:D

Pvt. Cowboy
04-10-2008, 6:02 PM
So, this morning finally I can call them, and the reason is: my Green Card/Permanent Resident is too new (approved on 3/4/2008) that makes me consider as less than 90 days to be a resident of CA???

Firstly, congratulations on your permanent residency.

Secondly, if I owned a gun store, I would rig up red and blue spinning police floodlights and a siren hidden in the ceiling operated by a foot pedal under the counter. When someone got denied by the instant check system, I'd hit the switch and see what the person did when the police lights fill the room with red and blue flashes and piercing siren sound. :eek:

Lastly, just wait out your 90 days and go back and get your gun. Tell the gun store to keep the gun warm and they'll see you again on 6/4 to go through the California Gun Gauntlet for the second time.

why not just become a (legal) U.S citizen?:confused:

denounce were you came from and take the oath.

I don't think they require immigrants to denounce where they came from, but I like the way you think. I would like to apply for the job of Denouncement Interview Representative. :D

Army
04-10-2008, 11:49 PM
BTW, thank you for being here legally :)

mymonkeyman
04-10-2008, 11:58 PM
why not just become a legale U.S citizen?:confused:

denounce were you came from and take the oath,
and become a part the country you have chosen live in??




:TFH:


.

Do you seriously think it is that easy to become a citizen? Gaining permanent residency is the first step on that path. He has to be a permanent resident for at least another 5 years before he can apply for citizenship.

cosorio
04-11-2008, 5:43 AM
Do you seriously think it is that easy to become a citizen? Gaining permanent residency is the first step on that path. He has to be a permanent resident for at least another 5 years before he can apply for citizenship.

+1 on that. There is a 5 year wait (3 years if if Green Card was obtained through a marriage to a US Citizen) before one can apply for US citizenship. The key term is L.P.R. = Lawful Permanent Resident. You have to maintain lawful permanent residency in order to become eligible for US citizenship. That means no misdemeanor and certainly not felony conviction. Doing so will revoke your LPR status and will be grounds for deportation.
Although you have your GC, you are most likely still under conditional status. I wont get into that topic, but the bottom line, you just have to wait 90 days. BTW, if the seller sold you the gun, you are the legal owner and I don't think you can get a refund from the seller.

t0kie
04-11-2008, 10:03 AM
Thank you for all your support, and like the other members said, it's not my call now to become a US citizen since I just got the greencard, there is normal 5 years waiting period before getting a US Passport/US citizen (unless joining the service -will get it in 2 years), and believe me that I coudn't wait till that day come :)

About shooting an airsoft, that I did already many times & got enough already :), time to move on with the real deal in the shooting range, and I sold all of my airsoft, only 1 airsoft handgun left :)


The seller was cool, he said that if there is any problems, he was willing to take it back & refund my money minus the shipping cost, but the thing is I'm in love already with my first Springer SS Loaded & have no plan to return it.

Good news so far, the local FFL that I'm dealing with is cool, he is willing to store it for me until June 2nd, for a fee of $50. I can live with that. And the woman from DOJ called this morning & told me to be patient since she has no reply yet from the FBI agent in D.C. that she emailed yesterday. At least she shows some care.
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wikidklown
04-11-2008, 11:58 AM
Everything looks kool, it's just the wait period that's not kool ;-)

Thank you for all your support, and like the other members said, it's not my call now to become a US citizen since I just got the greencard, there is normal 5 years waiting period before getting a US Passport/US citizen (unless joining the service -will get it in 2 years), and believe me that I coudn't wait till that day come :)

About shooting an airsoft, that I did already many times & got enough already :), time to move on with the real deal in the shooting range, and I sold all of my airsoft, only 1 airsoft handgun left :)


The seller was cool, he said that if the local FFL gave me problems, he was willing to take it back & refund my money minus the shipping cost, but the thing is I'm in love already with my first Springer SS Loaded & have no plan to return it.

Good news so far, the local FFL that I'm dealing with is willing to store it for me until June 4th, for a fee of $50. I can live with that. And the woman from DOJ called this morning & told me to be patient since she has no reply yet from the FBI agent in D.C. that she emailed yesterday. At least she shows some care.

t0kie
04-11-2008, 12:09 PM
Everything looks kool, it's just the wait period that's not kool ;-)

Exactly, but I'm still hoping that it may change :)
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lehn20
04-11-2008, 2:17 PM
Everytime you buy a gun as a CA Perm Res you have to show 90 day residency in CA with utility/cable bills etc. Make sure you have a monthly bill coming to your place with the correct address and name everymonth.
When you buy your second gun they will ask for 90days of bill again and 3rd again, till you become a citizen.

t0kie
04-11-2008, 2:48 PM
Everytime you buy a gun as a CA Perm Res you have to show 90 day residency in CA with utility/cable bills etc. Make sure you have a monthly bill coming to your place with the correct address and name everymonth.
When you buy your second gun they will ask for 90days of bill again and 3rd again, till you become a citizen.


Yup, you are right, my local FFL did that and got all the info, matched with my name & address - last 3 months, no problem at all.
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tenpercentfirearms
04-11-2008, 7:37 PM
Is your I-94 still valid? If so you can purchase firearms with that and three months of bills and a valid hunting license. If they have canceled your I-94, then you are stuck waiting for 90 days.

Your FFL should have just sat on the gun for no charge, but it is his business. I wouldnt have charged you anything for it to sit in the recesses of my shop.

t0kie
04-11-2008, 10:19 PM
Is your I-94 still valid? If so you can purchase firearms with that and three months of bills and a valid hunting license. If they have canceled your I-94, then you are stuck waiting for 90 days.

Your FFL should have just sat on the gun for no charge, but it is his business. I wouldnt have charged you anything for it to sit in the recesses of my shop.

Yes my I-94 was still valid, but usually the way US Homeland security works, is if there is any upgrade, like from I-94 to Premanent Resident, then the Permanent Resident that counts, IIRC. Also, I don't have a hunting license.

Yeah, but I got no problem with the $50, at least he's cool & wants to help me store/hold it at his store, instead of sending it back to the original gunbroker seller that I bought it from. Also, as I mention before, I love my Springer they day it delivered in my local FFL & have no intention to get a refund for it.
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