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View Full Version : New Saiga Owner and some 922r help needed.


townbound
04-09-2008, 9:58 PM
I'm another California member who just purchased a Saiga rifle. I've been studying up on this 922r thing here and on Saiga-12 for a few weeks now. My biggest issue is that I can't figure which parts to replace. I am not going to do a pistol grip conversion, but I am going to change my Hand guard and gas tube. I will be installing bullet guides and using some of my old AK hi-caps (made in china purchased before 2000). California compliance is simple for me on this (no PG or evil features) but 922r compliance is a little more complicated for me because I will not be using American made mags. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that since I'm using Hi-caps I have to be 922r compliant even if I didn't want to change the hand-guard.

I also believe that I can have no more than 10 imported parts on my rifle and the replacement hand-guard will bring me down to 13. I'm thinking that I can replace the gas piston to get down to 12. This is where it gets a little tricky, I guess I could ad a muzzle break to get it down to 11 if I want to thread my barrel and add that. What's the next simple thing to replace? I would love to replace the stock with something different, but I can't find any stock that I can used other than a pistol grip style stock which is a no-no for my build. Can I get a US made Bolt carrier somewhere? Or a better stock? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

mymonkeyman
04-09-2008, 11:29 PM
Adding a US muzzle brake to a gun that did not previously have a foreign muzzle brake does not help you under 922r. The question isn't how many US parts you have added, but how many foreign parts you have removed, or more specifically, how many foreign parts are left.

That being said, I think trying to do what you are doing maybe difficult, however you can try dinzag (http://www.dinzagarms.com/misc_parts/fcgnpg.html)for a trigger replacement that supposedly replaces the foreign disconnecter and hammer (2 parts) and gives a better feeling trigger. I haven't' done it, but someone else on this board has and said it was somewhat difficult to do. With the gas piston and the hand guard, that should get you down to 10.

A US made non-PG buttstock for the Saiga is hard to come by, the only place I saw it was some guy on saiga-12.com who was doing custom stock requests. Another choice might be to replace the followers and floorplates of the magazines (although that gets you into the issue of what is manufacturing under the CA large-capacity magazine ban).

fun2none
04-09-2008, 11:53 PM
From Saiga Forum: (http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=18530&st=0&p=158487&#entry158487)

A Saiga Rifle in factory configuration has 14 parts.
A Saiga shotgun threaded for chokes has 14 parts.
A Saiga shotgun not threaded for chokes has 13 parts.

(parts on a factory config saiga are in bold)

(1) Receiver
(2) Barrels
(3) Barrel extensions
(4) Mounting blocks, trunnion (rifles only)
(5) Muzzle attachments (shotguns w/ threaded barrels only)
(6) Bolts
(7) Bolt carriers
(8) Operating rods
(9) Gas pistons
(10) Trigger housings
(11) Triggers
(12) Hammers
(13) Sears
(14) Disconnectors
(15) Buttstock
(16) Pistol grips
(17) Forearms, handguards
(18) Magazine bodies
(19) Followers
(20) Floorplates

Four (4) parts out of 14 need to be replaced with US made versions in order to comply with 922(r).

Items 11,12,14 are a no brainer.
When combined with either item 9 or 19, you have replaced the four parts. I would go with item 19 as a magazine follower is cheaper and easier to swap out than a gas piston.

Here is a magazine follower for $2.99.
http://www.tapco.com/proddesc.aspx?Id=eb23bc21-e448-4904-99dd-0d8b9e4077eb

townbound
04-09-2008, 11:57 PM
\Another choice might be to replace the followers and floorplates of the magazines (although that gets you into the issue of what is manufacturing under the CA large-capacity magazine ban).


You've made some very good points, thanks for clearing up the muzzle break thing. I thought about replacing the mag parts but I would not know where to get those US parts from. Rebuilding a mag is not the same as manufacturing right?

I guess I could do the pistol grip mod and go with an MMG, but I'm really trying to go that route.

townbound
04-09-2008, 11:58 PM
Here is a magazine follower for $2.99.
http://www.tapco.com/proddesc.aspx?Id=eb23bc21-e448-4904-99dd-0d8b9e4077eb

Thanks a lot.

Harrison_Bergeron
04-10-2008, 12:09 AM
What makes it necessary to go the 922r route without the PG?

townbound
04-10-2008, 12:19 AM
What makes it necessary to go the 922r route without the PG?

It's the use of the Hi-caps. I got this from Saiga-12.com


Grey Areas

Sporting Purposes…
While this was defined in the now-defunct AWB of 1994, the term "Sporting Purposes" is in actuality determined by the opinion of the Secretary of the Treasury. There is no clear ruling on what exactly that means so adding a bayonet lug or flash hider to the firearm may be considered "unsporting" and in violation of 922®.

High Capacity Magazines…
It has been argued what exactly high capacity magazine means. Generally it has been understood that the magazine limit for rifles is 10 rounds and shotguns is 5. Anymore than that and it’s considered “unsuitable for sporting purposes”. Problem is there are no clear definitions stating that exactly.

Flash Hider/Muzzle Brakes/Compensators…
Any type of FH, Brake, Comp or choke are considered muzzle devices. They are included in the parts count. However there has been some disagreement in the past as to whether adding a muzzle brake constitutes making the imported weapon “unsporting”.

Examples:

You have a Saiga-12 with factory threaded barrel. (14 parts) You want to convert it to pistol grip configuration. You will need 5 U.S. made parts to make it a U.S. firearm since adding a pistol grip is adding a part from the list.

-or-

You have a Saiga-7.62x39 and want to use high capacity magazines. Since high capacity magazines are considered “unsporting”, and would be in violation of 922®. Your rifle with mag has 14 parts. Use U.S. made mags and one additional U.S. made part like a gas piston and you are good to go.

-or-

You have a Saiga-410 and want to use the factory 10 round magazines. This is believed to be considered high-capacity in a shotgun and be in violation of 922®. You will need to remove imported parts and replace them with U.S. made parts so you have no more than 10 imported ones total.

townbound
04-10-2008, 12:51 AM
Ok, I think I've got it now. I'll replace the Trigger, Hammer, Handguard and mag followers. Maybe the gas piston too.

fun2none
04-10-2008, 1:18 AM
Ok, I think I've got it now. I'll replace the Trigger, Hammer, Handguard and mag followers. Maybe the gas piston too.

Replacing the standard hand guard with a US made Galil version is going to cost $60. Add that to the cost of the other compliance parts and the price starts approaching $100.

Replacing the gas piston requires drilling the dimples out and staking or riveting the new piston after it's screwed into the bolt carrier. It's more labor.

A fire control group (hammer, trigger, disconnector) and magazine follower is about $35 and gets you to 922(r) compliance. If you plan on using unmodified AK mags then don't forget about the bullet guide you'll need to buy and install - another $20. Total cost is about $55.

A replacement Saiga 10rd magazine is about $28. The parts cost for the most economical conversion is equal to two spare 10 round magazines.

If you have a boatload of pre-CA-ban AK magazines, then by all means convert it. If not, then consider the actual benefits of such a conversionn.

townbound
04-10-2008, 1:23 AM
Replacing the standard hand guard with a US made Galil version is going to cost $60. Add that to the cost of the other compliance parts and the price starts approaching $100.

Replacing the gas piston requires drilling the dimples out and staking or riveting the new piston after it's screwed into the bolt carrier. It's more labor.

A fire control group (hammer, trigger, disconnector) and magazine follower is about $35 and gets you to 922(r) compliance. If you plan on using unmodified AK mags then don't forget about the bullet guide you'll need to buy and install - another $20. Total cost is about $55.

A replacement Saiga 10rd magazine is about $28. The parts cost for the most economical conversion is equal to two spare 10 round magazines.

If you have a boatload of pre-CA-ban AK magazines, then by all means convert it. If not, then consider the actual benefits of such a conversionn.


I do hear what you're saying and I know there are cost involved, I might just got ahead and get somebody to build me a MMG equipped AK or buy a finished off list AK to make use of my Hi-caps. And yes I do have a lot of them. I'm not in a rush to do anything so I'll think about it. I just picked up my Saiga yesterday, I can enjoy it as is for a while.

Mitch
04-10-2008, 6:52 AM
That's a lot of hassle to go through just to use high capacity magazines. It is difficult to believe that anyone could ever be arrested under 922(r), let alone convicted, for making a Saiga "non-sporting" by using high capacity magazines.

If that's all you want to do, I wouldn't bother.

redcliff
04-10-2008, 7:22 AM
922r is a law in need of a total smackdown. More time, money and effort goes into compliance of this by gun owners then any other unenforced law I can think of.

I say "unenforced" because I'm not aware of a single 922r only conviction, although it's possible it was an add-on charge that may have been dropped in plea deals.

fun2none
04-10-2008, 9:06 AM
From what I understand about 922(r), it applies more to manufacturers than individuals. Most people are honest and chose to err on the side caution, hence all the 922(r) compliance parts. Some take the chance (if any) and ignore 922(r).

Does anyone know US statutes specify as penalties for a 922(r) violation ? is it a misdemeanor, felony, infraction ?

mymonkeyman
04-10-2008, 9:43 AM
922r is a law in need of a total smackdown. More time, money and effort goes into compliance of this by gun owners then any other unenforced law I can think of.

I say "unenforced" because I'm not aware of a single 922r only conviction, although it's possible it was an add-on charge that may have been dropped in plea deals.

You are right there are serious constitutional (not even counting 2nd amendment) and administrative law problems with 922(r). The biggest problem is that the ATF does not give notice (in the legal sense) to individuals of what is considered non-sporting, what has been excluded form importation for non-sporting, etc. Whenever someone asks the ATF, a slightly different list of features comes back, and those features often conflict with the weapons that have been authorized to be imported.

Harrison_Bergeron
04-10-2008, 12:19 PM
I'm not 100% on how to interpret Supreme Court cases, but wasn't one of the main points of Harrot that LE couldn't enact any "You'll know if you were legal or not when you are cuffed" laws? I know that it wasn't a case involving 922r, but shouldn't it still apply to some extent?

bwiese
04-10-2008, 12:23 PM
I'm not 100% on how to interpret Supreme Court cases, but wasn't one of the main points of Harrot that LE couldn't enact any "You'll know if you were legal or not when you are cuffed" laws? I know that it wasn't a case involving 922r, but shouldn't it still apply to some extent?

Why would a CA Supreme Ct decision about a CA law have an effect on a fairly unrelated Federal law?

It wouldn't.

As a general side comment, Federal regulatory law and the regulatory law behavior of other states don't have protections/underground regulation avoidance as good as that of CA regulatory law. If we had CA gun laws in another (East Coast) state we'd be worse off than in CA - someone like Alison could go way more haywire than she can in CA.

mymonkeyman
04-10-2008, 12:34 PM
Why would a CA Supreme Ct decision about a CA law have an effect on a fairly unrelated Federal law?

It wouldn't.

As a general side comment, Federal regulatory law and the regulatory law behavior of other states don't have protections/underground regulation avoidance as good as that of CA regulatory law. If we had CA gun laws in another (East Coast) state we'd be worse off than in CA - someone like Alison could go way more haywire than she can in CA.

Yea it really sucks that one of the actual good administrative law things Bush tried to do was require OIRA to review what are the federal equivalent of underground regulations (major new rules announced through interpretive rule-making or informal adjudication). Congress prohibited OIRA from spending any money on it, so federal agencies have gone hog wild with them.

vandal
04-10-2008, 1:22 PM
I did hammer, trigger, piston, handguard.