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View Full Version : OMG - ACLU stands up for 2nd Amend?


armspin
04-07-2008, 2:45 PM
I just saw a spot on Fox News about the Police Chief in D.C. starting a program whereby police officers go door-to-door asking residents to sign a waiver of their rights so that the police can search their homes for guns. The Chief says that "of course they will grant immunity" to those people who are found to be illegal aliens or conducting illegal activities, such as possession of illicit drugs. (Fox lady said that was the Chief's quote, it's not mine!). They also said that no one would be charged with 'illegal possession of a firearm' but that they do reserve the right to prosecute 'if a gun recovered in these searches is found to be linked to another crime'. They received comment from Johnny Barnes from the ACLU, who seemed to be against the idea of searching houses (not against searching them for guns).

Anyone else see this?

There was no mention of "due process" in the case that an allegedly illegal item is found within the home, and of course confiscated.

Hopi
04-07-2008, 2:48 PM
I just saw a spot on Fox News about the Police Chief in D.C. starting a program whereby police officers go door-to-door asking residents to sign a waiver of their rights so that the police can search their homes for guns. The Chief says that "of course they will grant immunity" to those people who are found to be illegal aliens or conducting illegal activities, such as possession of illicit drugs. (Fox lady said that was the Chief's quote, it's not mine!). They also said that no one would be charged with 'illegal possession of a firearm' but that they do reserve the right to prosecute 'if a gun recovered in these searches is found to be linked to another crime'.
ACLU protecting the 4th.

They received comment from Johnny Barnes from the ACLU, who seemed to be against the idea of searching houses (not against searching them for guns).

Anyone else see this?
ACLU does not yet acknowledge that the 2nd is an individual civil right. Soon we should be able to count this group as an ally....

dustoff31
04-07-2008, 3:15 PM
The Chief says that "of course they will grant immunity" to those people who are found to be illegal aliens or conducting illegal activities, such as possession of illicit drugs. (Fox lady said that was the Chief's quote, it's not mine!).


Yes, I saw this too. They also pointed out that while the chief said people would have immunity for other illegal activities, they seem to have left that part out of the written waiver they ask the homeowners to sign.


I'm sure the ACLU is only concerned about the 4th amendment considerations, we'll see if that changes with a favorable SCOTUS ruling in Heller. In the mean time, I'm glad they are helping regardless of their motivation.

CCWFacts
04-07-2008, 3:24 PM
HELLO, POLICE OFFICERS CAN'T GRANT IMMUNITY. The people who decide when to prosecute are called prosecutors and they are the only ones who can grant immunity. They are not called "police chiefs".

Bucc
04-07-2008, 3:25 PM
I wouldn't hold my breath on the American Communist Litigators Union ever in anyones wildest dream being a supporter of the 2nd.
Heller or not they will simply do as they already do and tell you they are researching or considering or don't have the staffing or are unaware of a 2A case.

JeffM
04-07-2008, 3:30 PM
... Soon we should be able to count this group as an ally....

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b22/moulton/calgunspoop2.gif
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b22/moulton/calgunspoopballon.gif


I'll believe it when I see it.

KenpoProfessor
04-07-2008, 3:35 PM
HELLO, POLICE OFFICERS CAN'T GRANT IMMUNITY. The people who decide when to prosecute are called prosecutors and they are the only ones who can grant immunity. They are not called "police chiefs".


Yea, you noticed that little fopaux as well huh? I was laughing when I heard her say it on the video, all the while thinking, she doesn't have the authority to do that :eek:

Maybe that's their out in case they start taking things and prosecuting.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

liketoshoot
04-07-2008, 3:37 PM
The ACLU needs to be gone. IMHO. They have done far more damage to America as a whole then any crime syndicate or political party.

Hopi
04-07-2008, 3:42 PM
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b22/moulton/calgunspoop2.gif
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b22/moulton/calgunspoopballon.gif


I'll believe it when I see it.

Wow, that is the first time I got the 'calgunspoopballoon.gif'......

I guess that I'm dying to see the political landscape drastically change after a positive Heller outcome. Optimistic? Yes.

Just imagine voting for reps based on economic ideology, foreign policy, and social issues. Voting every 2 or 4 years to maintain and protect our constitutional rights seems out of place with the original intent of the BOR.

I too, will believe it when I see it. But there is room in my car for optimism.

DedEye
04-07-2008, 3:49 PM
The ACLU needs to be gone. IMHO. They have done far more damage to America as a whole then any crime syndicate or political party.

:rolleyes: :icon_bs:

Back it up.

JeffM
04-07-2008, 3:58 PM
Wow, that is the first time I got the 'calgunspoopballoon.gif'......

I guess that I'm dying to see the political landscape drastically change after a positive Heller outcome. Optimistic? Yes.

Just imagine voting for reps based on economic ideology, foreign policy, and social issues. Voting every 2 or 4 years to maintain and protect our constitutional rights seems out of place with the original intent of the BOR.

I too, will believe it when I see it. But there is room in my car for optimism.


I thought you'd like that :D

I can imagine it too...that and getting a lap dance from Selma Hayek, but I'm sure that's about as close as I'll come to seeing either of those happen.

MudCamper
04-07-2008, 5:26 PM
The ACLU defends our 1st, 4th, and 5th Ammendment rights. That's what they do. That's all they do. So, this case clearly falls under the 4th. Why is this even the slightest bit surprising to anyone?

armspin
04-07-2008, 5:30 PM
I was just surprised that they would touch the issue at all. I was always under the impression that they stayed away from anything having to do with the 2nd, be there other, more popular amend's at stake or not.

And apparently, I'm the last one to hear about this "program" - that's what I get for staying off forums for a week :( lol

Harrison_Bergeron
04-07-2008, 5:40 PM
what happens if residents don't sign up?

Crazed_SS
04-07-2008, 5:48 PM
I wouldn't hold my breath on the American Communist Litigators Union ever in anyones wildest dream being a supporter of the 2nd.
Heller or not they will simply do as they already do and tell you they are researching or considering or don't have the staffing or are unaware of a 2A case.

What makes the ACLU "Communist"?

Harrison_Bergeron
04-07-2008, 5:51 PM
What makes the ACLU "Communist"?

Aren't they responsible for some of the pledge of allegiance and in God we Trust type lawsuits?

Crazed_SS
04-07-2008, 5:58 PM
Aren't they responsible for some of the pledge of allegiance and in God we Trust type lawsuits?

OK.. What does that have to do with Communism (http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861599030/communism.html)?

FortCourageArmory
04-07-2008, 6:00 PM
what happens if residents don't sign up?

Um......the police don't come into your home?:confused: What did you miss? I bet news footage of police brow-beating inner city residents to let them search their homes won't go over too well on the nightly news.

CCWFacts
04-07-2008, 6:12 PM
What makes the ACLU "Communist"?

In direct answer to what makes them Communist, you could point to their founders:

Crystal Eastman:
Crystal Catherine Eastman (June 25, 1881 - July 8, 1928) was a lawyer, antimilitarist, feminist, socialist, and journalist.

and Roger Nash Baldwin:
Roger Nash Baldwin (January 21, 1884 – August 26, 1981) was one of the founders of the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU). He served as executive director of the ACLU until 1950.

Baldwin was a pacifist. In the 1930s Baldwin and the ACLU became linked to the Popular Front movement, which was engendered by Stalin to strengthen the Communist Party by allowing it to make common cause with socialists and other leftist groups. Baldwin himself made two trips to the Soviet Union, and in 1928 published a book entitled Liberty Under the Soviets, which contained effusive praise for the USSR.

Gee, people like Baldwin outside the USSR were praising it, while people like Baldwin inside the USSR were being tortured to death and wishing they had good old American-style armed freedom.

I think it would be fair to say that it was Communist affiliated in the past. Is the ACLU communist today? It must retain some of the same core of people and values that went into its founding, but a lot of time has passed and it now has a strange blend of ideologies in it, including libertarians. I think that, with the benefit of hindsight, it's more difficult for people to deny how horrible Soviet-style communism was. The USSR no longer exists so the old idea of being Soviet-sponsored is no longer possible.

Already by the 1940s they could see the reality of what the Soviet "utopia" was:

In 1940, the ACLU formally barred communists from leadership or staff positions, and would take the position that it did not want communists as members either. The board declared that it was "inappropriate for any person to serve on the governing committees of the Union or its staff, who is a member of any political organization which supports totalitarianism in any country, or who by his public declarations indicates his support of such a principle." The purge, which was led by Baldwin, himself a former supporter of Communism, began with the ouster of Elizabeth Gurley Flynn, a member of both the Communist Party USA and the IWW.

Note that George Orwell, also a Socialist, changed his position at about the same time. It was pretty clear by then that Communism was just another way for people to have absolute power over others.

I'm a pro-freedom, pro-4th-amend kind of guy but I doubt I'll ever join the ACLU. That could change if they really get behind the 2A and fully renounce their Socialist roots. I know that here in LA, they fought the city of LA for years to allow homeless people to camp on city sidewalks. That's not freedom, that's not humane, that's just cruel and self-delusional. I won't support them until they renounce all such things.

MudCamper
04-07-2008, 8:06 PM
What makes the ACLU "Communist"?

Ignorant right-wing dogma. Or perhaps insidious right-wing propaganda.

ViPER395
04-07-2008, 9:11 PM
Awesome history lesson CCW. Now I despise the Atheists, Commies & Lesbians Union even more than I do already.

In direct answer to what makes them Communist, you could point to their founders:

Crystal Eastman:


and Roger Nash Baldwin:


Gee, people like Baldwin outside the USSR were praising it, while people like Baldwin inside the USSR were being tortured to death and wishing they had good old American-style armed freedom.

I think it would be fair to say that it was Communist affiliated in the past. Is the ACLU communist today? It must retain some of the same core of people and values that went into its founding, but a lot of time has passed and it now has a strange blend of ideologies in it, including libertarians. I think that, with the benefit of hindsight, it's more difficult for people to deny how horrible Soviet-style communism was. The USSR no longer exists so the old idea of being Soviet-sponsored is no longer possible.

Already by the 1940s they could see the reality of what the Soviet "utopia" was:



Note that George Orwell, also a Socialist, changed his position at about the same time. It was pretty clear by then that Communism was just another way for people to have absolute power over others.

I'm a pro-freedom, pro-4th-amend kind of guy but I doubt I'll ever join the ACLU. That could change if they really get behind the 2A and fully renounce their Socialist roots. I know that here in LA, they fought the city of LA for years to allow homeless people to camp on city sidewalks. That's not freedom, that's not humane, that's just cruel and self-delusional. I won't support them until they renounce all such things.

Crazed_SS
04-07-2008, 10:03 PM
In direct answer to what makes them Communist, you could point to their founders:

Crystal Eastman:


and Roger Nash Baldwin:


Gee, people like Baldwin outside the USSR were praising it, while people like Baldwin inside the USSR were being tortured to death and wishing they had good old American-style armed freedom.

I think it would be fair to say that it was Communist affiliated in the past. Is the ACLU communist today? It must retain some of the same core of people and values that went into its founding, but a lot of time has passed and it now has a strange blend of ideologies in it, including libertarians. I think that, with the benefit of hindsight, it's more difficult for people to deny how horrible Soviet-style communism was. The USSR no longer exists so the old idea of being Soviet-sponsored is no longer possible.

Already by the 1940s they could see the reality of what the Soviet "utopia" was:



Note that George Orwell, also a Socialist, changed his position at about the same time. It was pretty clear by then that Communism was just another way for people to have absolute power over others.

I'm a pro-freedom, pro-4th-amend kind of guy but I doubt I'll ever join the ACLU. That could change if they really get behind the 2A and fully renounce their Socialist roots. I know that here in LA, they fought the city of LA for years to allow homeless people to camp on city sidewalks. That's not freedom, that's not humane, that's just cruel and self-delusional. I won't support them until they renounce all such things.

Interesting look at their history, but I still dont seem them as "Communist". I dont see how defending the BOR can be construed as being a communist.

Most people dislike the ACLU because they usually end up going against the status quo. The ACLU is defending the minutemen down here in SD for pete's sake. A lot of people seem to think that if the ACLU defends the KKK for spewing hate speech, then the ACLU supports or hate.. or if the ACLU defends a criminal suspect who was brutalized by the police, then the ACLU supports criminals!

I commend them for taking principled stands. Many people (even gun people on this board) claim to support the BOR, but are quick to dismiss rights of people they dont agree with.

CCWFacts
04-07-2008, 11:49 PM
I dont see how defending the BOR can be construed as being a communist.

It can't be. Even if they picked just one of the amendments and decided to defend it ("we love the 3rd amendment, the rest can sink in a bog"), that can't be communist and wouldn't be tolerated in any of the real communist countries.

Which is why they did officially renounce it in 1940, and barred anyone who was a Communist (big-C) from being an officer or staff member. At the time of the founding of the ACLU, Communism was mainly just an idealistic idea, not something which had been tried in reality, so you can't fault them for not knowing the horror of it. Now, we know very well, but we have hindsight and they didn't. When they did find out, they renounced it.

Then they shifted to the more liberal idea that you can have enough freedom that people can express themselves, you don't need gulags, etc, but they can still try to use government power and regulation to achieve a perfect society of equality, no poor people, no racism, etc. And that's where they are now, and where I disagree with them. I don't see that any amount of government control can make society "perfect", and regardless, my view of perfect society does include inequalities (it's natural and inevitable), and allows room for people to have distasteful beliefs like racism. So I part ways with them there. In addition, I believe law-abiding citizens have a right to armed self-defense, which is another place I part with them. They think that the police are responsible for defense of individuals, even though numerous court cases have said that that isn't true.

Seems like they have a big dose of generalized anti-establishmentarianism too. Hey it's a lot healthier to have that than to not have that. Bad decisions (on any level) happen when there's no opposition or when no one questions the decisions.

Wulf
04-08-2008, 6:07 AM
They're just afraid that the police will stumble upon drugs or kiddie porn WHILE they're searching for guns.

bulgron
04-08-2008, 8:01 AM
Most people dislike the ACLU because they usually end up going against the status quo.

A lot of people dislike the NRA exactly for the same reason.

You can't be an organization that goes around fighting for civil liberties and expect to be the most popular kid on the block.

The ACLU has done good things for this country. It's also done some really bizarre and harmful things. The same thing can arguably be said about the NRA, albeit not on as large of a scale since the NRA is more narrowly focused than the ACLU. More, the NRA has tended to lose court battles, or avoid them altogether (until recently), whereas the ACLU seems to be pretty good at suing and winning. But that's just the difference between recognized civil liberties that are protected by the courts, and an unpopular amendment that the courts really wish didn't exist.

Anyway, the nature of the criticisms of the ACLU and the NRA are almost identical, although the actual evidence used is informed by the political leanings of the criticizer. It all comes down to this: "I want to be able to stomp on the civil liberties of X, but that big beastie of an organization over there won't let me do it. They're just a bunch of communists/facists (circle one) who want to put our nation's children at risk."

maxicon
04-08-2008, 8:56 AM
I'm a fan of the ACLU, though I do wish they'd see the 2nd as a civil liberty. Still, I believe the things they support are good for freedom and democracy, the rule of law, and the country as a whole.

If someone has an example of something they've done in the past, say, 20 years that supports communism or socialism, I'd be interested in seeing it.

I don't consider coming out against organized religion in government to be communist, since it's a basic part of American freedom and doesn't attempt to suppress religion in general.

greyfell
03-31-2010, 9:39 AM
What makes the ACLU "Communist"?

It is clearly stated by their founder, Roger Baldwin, in his writings: "I am for socialism, disarmament, and ultimately for abolishing the state itself as an instrument of violence and compulsion. I seek social ownership of property, the abolition of the propertied class. Communism is the goal." What is seldom reported is that Baldwin changed his mind when he saw what Hitler did. But that didn't necessarily change the ACLU. At this point, I yield to CCW's more thorough, and welcome, review.

ocspeedracer
03-31-2010, 9:44 AM
wherever there is a society there will always be poverty, some choose to live "off the grid" some are crazy, some are addicts. That said the ACLU is kind of like PITA, and while sure I'm against animal cruelty I eat meat and go hunting but I hate PITA and most of what they stand for.

a1c
03-31-2010, 9:55 AM
Enough with the simplistic bashing. The ACLU has done a lot for this country. It has also joined the NRA and the GOA in several lawsuits, particularly in some state-level cases.

CABilly
03-31-2010, 10:04 AM
Zombie thread!

I don't agree with everything the ACLU does, but I could say the same for the NRA. It doesn't mean that they don't produce a net gain for society.

Gray Peterson
03-31-2010, 11:01 AM
Awesome history lesson CCW. Now I despise the Atheists, Commies & Lesbians Union even more than I do already.

Posts like the example above is why people from other minority communities avoid the gun community like the plague.