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KenpoProfessor
04-06-2008, 7:58 AM
This story seems oddly familiar to the Monty Python skit.

http://charlotte.creativeloafing.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A281499

Police plead for mercy
Don't hurt the criminals
Published 03.05.08By Tara ServatiusIt was midnight, and I was running on fumes when I stopped at a Mount Holly gas station that was deserted, except for the clerk. I'd just started the gas pump when a beat-up old car that had just passed the station did a quick U-turn and pulled into the lot. I instinctively knew something was wrong, but I barely had time to react before the car pulled alongside mine. The two occupants looked like they were drunk or stoned out of their minds, or both, and the driver said something crude to me and demanded I get in his car. Within seconds he'd hopped out, telling me he was going to put me in his car.

Had I not had a gun in my coat pocket, I'd have gladly paid thousands of dollars for one in that instant. As he closed in on me I pulled it out, planning to fire and to keep firing until he stopped. What shocked me was that I didn't have to. In fact, I never got the chance to fully point it at him. The sight of the barrel alone froze him in his tracks, just feet from me. It changed his whole demeanor. He put his hands up. He slowly backed away, looking at me like I was the crazy one.

I'm still convinced something terrible would have happened to me that night had I not had my gun with me. That's why it drives me nuts that once again, Charlotte-Mecklenburg Police told the public last week not to fight back if they are confronted by an assailant. They do this every time a series of armed robbers gets injured or killed by armed victims. The last time they warned the public not to fight back was in July, after two armed assailants were hurt and a third killed by their victims.

The guy who was killed, Michael Travis White, entered someone's home in an attempt to rob them, but his intended victims got his gun away from him and killed him with it. To suggest that victims not fight back when an armed intruder enters their home with the full knowledge that they are inside and no immediate avenue of escape is available is madness.

But last week, compliance with criminals is exactly what CMPD once again suggested. In keeping with the department's long-term message on this, Officer Brad Starnes with the police crime prevention unit told News Talk 1110 WBT that robbery victims shouldn't fight back after two recent incidents where victims fought back with deadly results. He was referring not to the deaths of the victims but those of two armed robbers with long criminal records. One was shot and killed by an employee while attempting to rob Floyd's Restaurant and another was dispatched by a Cricket Wireless employee as he tried to rob the store. The victims weren't hurt.

"We don't encourage ending someone's life over money," Starnes said, referring to the life of the criminal. "We would like to handle it through the proper channels if possible, let them stand trial for it."

Instead, victims should remain calm, try to notice details about their attacker, hope, I presume, not to be executed, and call 911 as soon as possible, he said.

That the department would send that message this month of all months is the height of irony. Call 911? You mean like the triple homicide victims at the house on Patricia Ryan Drive did twice before they were murdered? Officers who responded the first time didn't attempt to enter the house even though the victim asked 911 for help. The second time, due to technological difficulties, they didn't respond to at all.

And what about 57-year-old father of four Larry O'Faire, a long-time trucking company employee who was killed outside his home on Horne Drive last week while being robbed by repeat felons Ronaldo and Rodarius Frieson? The "don't fight back" concept didn't work out so well in that case. Or in the case of the Feb. 5 shootings of former Fort Mill Mayor Charlie Powers and clerk Yen Nguyen at a Fort Mill convenience store during an armed robbery. Or in several others across the region in recent months where those who complied with armed robbers wound up dead. Though it's possible I missed one, after much searching, I couldn't find a single case of a victim seriously injured or killed because he or she fought back in the past six months. So here's last month's toll for the area -- four victims who took the CMPD approach and complied with their robbers or relied on 911 are dead and two more were seriously injured. The two victims who fought back during armed robberies came out just fine.

After personally observing CMPD's half-an-hour response time to an apparent robbery in progress next door, any illusions I had about relying on the police for protection against the violent criminals our justice system spins back out on the street with a slap on the wrist have been shattered. These criminals have so little fear of being stopped that they have begun kicking in doors in affluent suburban areas they never before dared to victimize.

And we're supposed to worry about hurting them over money? What about us?


Yea, life or death, just be a good witness :(

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

RRangel
04-06-2008, 8:19 AM
Officer Brad Starnes, and the Charlotte-Mecklenburg Police Department can go to hell.

chris
04-06-2008, 8:30 AM
typical response from police. why should i wait for up to 30 min for them to respond. all they would do is draw that chalk line around my dead body. screw them fighting back in my right especially in my own home.

mymonkeyman
04-06-2008, 10:51 AM
What I don't understand is why police think they shouldn't run away / not fight but other people should? It's not like the police necessarily have better training than the person attacked. I think the real worry of police is not the individual getting hurt, but losing their monopoly on force.

M. Sage
04-06-2008, 10:52 AM
typical response from police. why should i wait for up to 30 min for them to respond. all they would do is draw that chalk line around my dead body. screw them fighting back in my duty especially in my own home.

Fixed it for you.

If every potential victim fought back - no matter what the odds, no matter what the situation - how much crime do you suppose there would be...?

1911su16b870
04-06-2008, 11:11 AM
The title of this post made me think of this:

http://www.geocities.com/fang_club/Sir_robin_part_3_pic.jpg

:D

jacques
04-06-2008, 11:21 AM
Fixed it for you.

If every potential victim fought back - no matter what the odds, no matter what the situation - how much crime do you suppose there would be...?

There would be much less. And if every innocent bystander helped out, we may get control of the streets back.

I think people are scared about lawsuits. You help someone out, or you hurt a burgler, they turn around and sue you.

M. Sage
04-06-2008, 11:23 AM
This is true. We need Castle very badly. It should be a nation-wide law...

Hoop
04-06-2008, 11:44 AM
why should i wait for up to 30 min for them to respond.

Instead of asking for help, maybe say "FREE DONUTS!"

LAK Supply
04-06-2008, 11:49 AM
Most PD's have an elitist attitude.... you poor saps are just serfs.... expendable over elitist ideals. The poor stupid serf may hurt themselves, and the poor misunderstood criminal may just be having a bad day and isn't really a bad person. Does one mistake deserve death? Come on serfs..... you don't really know what's best for anybody, much less yourself. Let the professional elites handle the dangerous work lest you cause more problems for yourself....

KenpoProfessor
04-06-2008, 12:09 PM
The title of this post made me think of this:

http://www.geocities.com/fang_club/Sir_robin_part_3_pic.jpg

:D

Actually, it's this one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCI18qAoKq4&feature=related

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

gmcal
04-06-2008, 2:40 PM
On Friday, as I was driving on the freeway, I noticed a grass fire in the center divider. I called 911 to report it. I received a "call cannot be completed at this time" message. I tried a few more times. I called someone else to make sure it wasn't my cell phone carrier, no problem getting through. Called 911 again, and got the same message. In all I spent about 7 minutes calling before I got through to 911. Then I got an automated message that said if it was an emergency press any key (why would I call 911 if it wasn't an emergency?), then I finally spoke to a dispatcher. 8 to 9 minutes total until I could get through!!!!! Yeah, sure, I'm more than happy to put my safety in the hands of our emergency responders. :rolleyes:

M. Sage
04-06-2008, 3:16 PM
I've called 911 only to wait on hold before, as an old man had a heart attack 10 feet away. And then I got a dispatcher with an accent I had trouble understanding. Win/win on that one, thanks San Francisco!

When seconds count, help is only minutes away. Sad, but extremely true.

Piper
04-06-2008, 4:50 PM
First off let me say just this is not a police bash. But the sad cold hard fact is that crime is what justifies a police departments existence and budget. The more crime the more money and the more goodies. If citizens fight back and crime goes down, how are the police going to justify the latest and greatest cool things ? If all of the stats are of attempted crimes but the citizens prevented the crime by stopping the BG, how are police supposed to hone their LE skills ? If crime was stopped dead in its tracks by a community of armed citizens, LE might have to justify its existence by showing traffic stats or worse yet, they might combine with the fire department and become a "Department of Public Safety".

Unfortunately, when a citizen protects themself, the police have some insecurity issues and become very defensive about the police role and that's why we are told not to resist even though crime stats overwhelmingly say otherwise.

KenpoProfessor
04-06-2008, 5:08 PM
First off let me say just this is not a police bash. But the sad cold hard fact is that crime is what justifies a police departments existence and budget. The more crime the more money and the more goodies. If citizens fight back and crime goes down, how are the police going to justify the latest and greatest cool things ? If all of the stats are of attempted crimes but the citizens prevented the crime by stopping the BG, how are police supposed to hone their LE skills ? If crime was stopped dead in its tracks by a community of armed citizens, LE might have to justify its existence by showing traffic stats or worse yet, they might combine with the fire department and become a "Department of Public Safety".

Unfortunately, when a citizen protects themself, the police have some insecurity issues and become very defensive about the police role and that's why we are told not to resist even though crime stats overwhelmingly say otherwise.

Took the words right outta my mouth. I would like to see some stats of how many crimes were deterred because the would be victim either showed a weapon or used the weapon.

There are people here who choose not to carry for whatever reason, I call them potential victims:cool2:

Hvae a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

Piper
04-06-2008, 5:15 PM
Took the words right outta my mouth. I would like to see some stats of how many crimes were deterred because the would be victim either showed a weapon or used the weapon.

There are people here who choose not to carry for whatever reason, I call them potential victims:cool2:

Hvae a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

Yes, but at least your potential victims have an umbrella effect from shall issue and that makes them less of a potential victim because of everyone that does carry.

KenpoProfessor
04-06-2008, 5:27 PM
Yes, but at least your potential victims have an umbrella effect from shall issue and that makes them less of a potential victim because of everyone that does carry.


Yea, in a sense, their only protection is me trying to save my own skin. :eek: but I probably won't make a deliberate effort to save someone just because I have the gun, unless it's a total hottie and I actually stand a chance of gettin' some whoopie :cool: Darwin, FTW.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

Steyr_223
04-06-2008, 6:06 PM
On Friday, as I was driving on the freeway, I noticed a grass fire in the center divider. I called 911 to report it. I received a "call cannot be completed at this time" message. I tried a few more times. I called someone else to make sure it wasn't my cell phone carrier, no problem getting through. Called 911 again, and got the same message. In all I spent about 7 minutes calling before I got through to 911. Then I got an automated message that said if it was an emergency press any key (why would I call 911 if it wasn't an emergency?), then I finally spoke to a dispatcher. 8 to 9 minutes total until I could get through!!!!! Yeah, sure, I'm more than happy to put my safety in the hands of our emergency responders. :rolleyes:

911 is a joke

http://youtube.com/watch?v=mHpFfgCiagE

MrLogan
04-07-2008, 11:03 AM
Officer Brad Starnes is a freaking moron. :mad:

Bucc
04-07-2008, 11:12 AM
Does one mistake deserve death?

Not necessarily, but stupidity should be really really painful. :43:

Riodog
04-07-2008, 12:18 PM
[QUOTE=LAK Supply;1117622]Most PD's have an elitist attitude.... you poor saps are just serfs.... expendable over elitist ideals. The poor stupid serf may hurt themselves, and the poor misunderstood criminal may just be having a bad day and isn't really a bad person. Does one mistake deserve death?

What a sense of humor you have there!:D:D I'll help you out with the answer.

FOCK YES!!

When that poor misunderstood criminal breaks into my home he just forfeited his right to a trial by a jury of his peers. When I read him his rights, it goes something like this.

BANG, BANG, BANG
Case closed.

Rio

ibanezfoo
04-07-2008, 12:35 PM
I think the real worry of police is not the individual getting hurt, but losing their monopoly on force.

I think the worry is not from the cops on the streets but the politicians who call themselves police. As we know, 99% of politicians are criminals. I think they are concerned that others of their kind are getting killed. If they "allow" you to fight back, their criminal buddies will start dropping like flies.

-Bryan

AKman
04-07-2008, 1:18 PM
As the old saying goes...

Better to be judged by 12 than carried by six.

When it comes to self defense, I don't care what the laws are, only basic survival. A short stint in jail, unless your cellmate is Bubba the Booty Bandit, beats death, which is sort of final.

50 Freak
04-07-2008, 2:32 PM
I wonder if these LE's tell their own wives, children to not to fight back if anyone attacked them.

I wonder is an perp enters one of these LE's homes at night, whether or not the LE would "not fight back".

Hypocrits

Draven
04-07-2008, 5:50 PM
I'd like to make a distinction here...

Many Police Departments are against self-defense, as a policy.

Many individual officers are not.

JALLEN
04-07-2008, 6:00 PM
I'd like to make a distinction here...

Many Police Departments are against self-defense, as a policy.

Many individual officers are not.

I wonder how much of that is driven by the city/co.'s insurance carrier and or risk management department. The fear is that if they encourage such conduct, they'll be brought in on the legal cases. Of course, it is silly that there will be civil cases, but it happens, here.

In some parts of the country, the police do not have such a policy, the Texas hill country being one such area where folks who carry weapons etc are seen as an aid to sound law enforcement, not a hindrance. Joe Horn has not been charged nor arrested and the grand jury is displaying as much disinterest in the case as they possibly can.

LAK Supply
04-07-2008, 6:13 PM
Sense of humor? :confused: I was being serious.... the police are our betters and gladly provide 24hr protection for each and every one of us. Since most of their ninja skills are superior to ours it's fitting..... What you don't know is that police chief who was cited in the article throws down his Batman ball and morphs to the scene of every crime... every time.

Tongue is about to fall out of mouth from too much contact with cheek.... teeth are sharp.... :ack2:


[QUOTE=LAK Supply;1117622]Most PD's have an elitist attitude.... you poor saps are just serfs.... expendable over elitist ideals. The poor stupid serf may hurt themselves, and the poor misunderstood criminal may just be having a bad day and isn't really a bad person. Does one mistake deserve death?

What a sense of humor you have there!:D:D I'll help you out with the answer.

FOCK YES!!

When that poor misunderstood criminal breaks into my home he just forfeited his right to a trial by a jury of his peers. When I read him his rights, it goes something like this.

BANG, BANG, BANG
Case closed.

Rio

Draven
04-07-2008, 6:40 PM
Most of it is driven by the policies of the cities.

Piper
04-07-2008, 8:25 PM
Of course you could always have the scenario go like I had when a BG broke into my house with the family there.

Dispatcher: Do you have a discription of the person ?

Wife: Yes, he's the guy my husband is pointing his 357 magnum at.

The police were there in about 2 minutes. They recovered the individual proned out and cuffed on my livingroom floor.

M. Sage
04-07-2008, 8:47 PM
I was just thinking about this thread, and what the police are advising isn't "run away" because running away is another form of resistance. They want you to comply, to offer no resistance.

jacques
04-07-2008, 9:50 PM
I was just thinking about this thread, and what the police are advising isn't "run away" because running away is another form of resistance. They want you to comply, to offer no resistance.

I think so. A lot of people would be at less risk of being hurt if they just handed over their wallet and said see ya. Which in most cases is all it is. You get the wrong person, unprepared, resisting, they get hurt or killed. That isn't worth a gold watch or wallet.

My sister-inlaws were held up at gun point in Hollywood, they just handed over their stuff and the gang bangers left quitely.

Someone in your home??? That is a completely different situation.