PDA

View Full Version : Private handgun sales leading to police sting


toopercentmlk
04-04-2008, 11:18 PM
I heard from word of mouth about LEs posing as private buyers and/or sellers of firearms and busting the potential buyer or seller for doing an otherwise legal, paper work involved transaction. Busts like this can be considered entrapment so the guy's at Turner's have gun lawyer business cards for the taking for situations like this.

My question is what are the chances of someone responding to one of my forsale threads in the private sale forums that is actually a law man trying to set me up? I'm not a criminal, and I abide by all laws and I respect LEOs but that doesn't mean that I don't worry about being "set up."

DrunkSkunk
04-04-2008, 11:19 PM
Uh... how can you be set up if you're doing a legal ppt? I don't get it.

Inoxmark
04-04-2008, 11:21 PM
How exactly can you be "set up" and "busted" for doing legal transaction?

69Mach1
04-04-2008, 11:21 PM
By going through a licensed gun dealer and processing the paperwork that's required, there's no law broken, so there's nothing to bust you on.

MKE
04-04-2008, 11:25 PM
Maybe an OLL that isn't state compliant??? :confused:

aplinker
04-04-2008, 11:26 PM
I heard from word of mouth

Where's that FUD smiley again?

dwtt
04-04-2008, 11:51 PM
Where's that FUD smiley again?

Didn't Bill warn us that LEO's were going to be coming on here with FUD? Is BOF really that bored?

eta34
04-05-2008, 12:07 AM
Yes, we are also looking to bust drivers who are traveling the speed limit. It was a recent training item sent down from the state. WE WILL GET YOU LAW ABIDERS IF IT IS THE LAST THING WE DO!

Toopercent, lay off the jenkem. Thanks.

toopercentmlk
04-05-2008, 12:16 AM
Yes, we are also looking to bust drivers who are traveling the speed limit. It was a recent training item sent down from the state. WE WILL GET YOU LAW ABIDERS IF IT IS THE LAST THING WE DO!

Toopercent, lay off the jenkem. Thanks.
Unlike many, I don't enjoy the smell of excrement. Thanks for the advice none-the-less.

leelaw
04-05-2008, 12:23 AM
Unlike many, I don't enjoy the smell of excrement. Thanks for the advice none-the-less.

Then how can you breathe while reading the initial post in this thread?

Setting up someone by completing a legal firearm transfer? :rolleyes:

aplinker
04-05-2008, 12:48 AM
Relax, Mr. OP. They're not coming to get you.

Then how can you breathe while reading the initial post in this thread?

Setting up someone by completing a legal firearm transfer? :rolleyes:

Meanie :p

Harrison_Bergeron
04-05-2008, 12:55 AM
You guys sure he's not referring to stories about LEOs propositioning law abiding citizens to do under the table transactions? I've read about Calgunners dealing with that at shows and such.

leelaw
04-05-2008, 12:58 AM
You guys sure he's not referring to stories about LEOs propositioning law abiding citizens to do under the table transactions? I've read about Calgunners dealing with that at shows and such.

He was very clear that the transfer in question happened at a dealer and involved paperwork. Though he didn't specify that it was DROS paperwork, it was assumed.

In that case, how is it possible for someone to be stung for a legal transfer of a firearm through a dealer?

Anyways, the important part: If you are buying or selling a firearm, do it lawfully at an FFL and you will not have any troubles. You don't get "stunk" unless you are illegally transfering the firearm.

Piper
04-05-2008, 5:48 AM
You know, I completely understand the point to this post. As I was reading the posts in this thread, three examples came to mind and eta helped me remember one of them.

I don't like throwing names around, but BWO and his recent encounter with HUA LE is the most obvious. And then there is this article about a man in Ohio that was inconvenienced by an over zealous LEO that appeared to assume that because a citizen has a loaded firearm, they got to be doing something wrong.

ETA, my personal encounter was with some rookie that wrote me a cite because I didn't have a shoulder harness in my '67 VW. Apparently, this rookie failed to read 27315f.

The bottom line is this, there are no real consequences (other than losing a case) to a LEO arresting someone for a legal activity so long as they can articulate that they did it with good intentions, and that's wrong.

M. Sage
04-05-2008, 6:54 AM
Yes, we are also looking to bust drivers who are traveling the speed limit. It was a recent training item sent down from the state. WE WILL GET YOU LAW ABIDERS IF IT IS THE LAST THING WE DO!

Toopercent, lay off the jenkem. Thanks.

LOL, that's the funniest thing I've seen in a couple of days!

PzKfW
04-05-2008, 6:57 AM
Someone's in a nasty mood this morning.

hawk1
04-05-2008, 11:40 AM
You guys sure he's not referring to stories about LEOs propositioning law abiding citizens to do under the table transactions? I've read about Calgunners dealing with that at shows and such.

If you are a party to an "under the table transaction" then you deserve to be busted. Period.

Harrison_Bergeron
04-05-2008, 11:50 AM
If you are a party to an "under the table transaction" then you deserve to be busted. Period.

As I read the stories, it was LEOs trying to convince people to go under the table who had every intention of staying legit.

Jicko
04-05-2008, 12:03 PM
I heard from word of mouth about LEs posing as private buyers and/or sellers of firearms and busting the potential buyer or seller for doing an otherwise legal, paper work involved transaction. Busts like this can be considered entrapment so the guy's at Turner's have gun lawyer business cards for the taking for situations like this.

My question is what are the chances of someone responding to one of my forsale threads in the private sale forums that is actually a law man trying to set me up? I'm not a criminal, and I abide by all laws and I respect LEOs but that doesn't mean that I don't worry about being "set up."

If you are doing nothing illegal.... then entrap my ***** (bottom)....

Bottomline, don't do anything illegal.... don't buy high cap magazine KIT if you do not have any high cap mag before the ban.... don't use high cap mag in a mag-locked weapon..... don't temporarily unlock your original P50 set-screw and go detachable magazine for JUST the range session... etc...

Matt C
04-05-2008, 12:06 PM
As I read the stories, it was LEOs trying to convince people to go under the table who had every intention of staying legit.

Which would be entrapment.

If you are a party to an "under the table transaction" then you deserve to be busted. Period.

Yeah guilty of exercising constitutional rights... I don't think anyone "deserves" to be busted for a "crime" that has no victim. It may be the law and I if you break it you won't get much sympathy, but to say they DESERVE jail? For owning or selling a piece of property? Nuts.


I don't like throwing names around, but BWO and his recent encounter with HUA LE is the most obvious. And then there is this article about a man in Ohio that was inconvenienced by an over zealous LEO that appeared to assume that because a citizen has a loaded firearm, they got to be doing something wrong.


If they are just going to bust through your house making up laws and saying every other item they find is stolen or illegal somehow, I don't see why they need a sting. Just a warrant, and apparently those are pretty easy to come by.

Socal858
04-05-2008, 12:15 PM
Yes, we are also looking to bust drivers who are traveling the speed limit. It was a recent training item sent down from the state. WE WILL GET YOU LAW ABIDERS IF IT IS THE LAST THING WE DO!

Toopercent, lay off the jenkem. Thanks.

daggummit i gots ta drive faster :D

Got Stuff?
04-05-2008, 1:01 PM
You know, I completely understand the point to this post. As I was reading the posts in this thread, three examples came to mind and eta helped me remember one of them.

I don't like throwing names around, but BWO and his recent encounter with HUA LE is the most obvious. And then there is this article about a man in Ohio that was inconvenienced by an over zealous LEO that appeared to assume that because a citizen has a loaded firearm, they got to be doing something wrong.

ETA, my personal encounter was with some rookie that wrote me a cite because I didn't have a shoulder harness in my '67 VW. Apparently, this rookie failed to read 27315f.

The bottom line is this, there are no real consequences (other than losing a case) to a LEO arresting someone for a legal activity so long as they can articulate that they did it with good intentions, and that's wrong.

+1!!!

It's amazing that some people still believe that over zealousness and entrapment doesn't exist! :confused: The problem is, that person may not know the specific part of law that they may be coerced into violating.

And, if you have a "low post count", don't post anything negative because a low post count proves you're just spreading FUD.:rolleyes:

Make an effort to know what you are doing and follow the rules :)

Experimentalist
04-05-2008, 1:57 PM
WE WILL GET YOU LAW ABIDERS IF IT IS THE LAST THING WE DO!

:hide:



:fud:

psssniper
04-05-2008, 2:18 PM
I believe that certain gun owners, for whatever reason, become targets of law enforcement and that CIs or others of their ilk are used to try and get something on the targeted gun owner. Case in point Randy Weaver. I myself could tell a tale or two or three, but won't in this public forum. As the other members have said, keep everything legit and above board, and you will have no problems ;)

Matt C
04-05-2008, 7:08 PM
As the other members have said, keep everything legit and above board, and you will have no problems ;)

Being legit is not a get out of jail free card, if they want to take you down, they will. You have a somewhat better chance of getting out of it if you keep your stuff above board.

hawk1
04-05-2008, 7:25 PM
If you are a party to an "under the table transaction" then you deserve to be busted. Period.




Yeah guilty of exercising constitutional rights... I don't think anyone "deserves" to be busted for a "crime" that has no victim. It may be the law and I if you break it you won't get much sympathy, but to say they DESERVE jail? For owning or selling a piece of property? Nuts.



BWO did I mention anything about jail in my quote?

Matt C
04-05-2008, 7:50 PM
BWO did I mention anything about jail in my quote?

How do you define busted?

SemiAutoSam
04-05-2008, 8:00 PM
Maybe he just meant Busted as in taking your hard earned money for a so called crime where there was no injured party.

MY philosophy is No Victim = No Crime.

Ya know some of these ridiculous laws are only in the books to line the coffers of the Fed, State, County or local jurisdiction.

How do you define busted?

Yankee Clipper
04-05-2008, 8:20 PM
Maybe he just meant Busted as in taking your hard earned money for a so called crime where there was no injured party.

MY philosophy is No Victim = No Crime.

Ya know some of these ridiculous laws are only in the books to line the coffers of the Fed, State, County or local jurisdiction.

And we’ve seen politically motivated police chiefs get their departments do stings on otherwise law abiding gun owners AND some of the ‘victims’ are our members. What worries me more than that abuse of power is the wedge it drives between our law abiding members and the LE’s in the street – some of whom are also members here. That is certainly taking respect for the law in the wrong direction but, because it happens so often, has made the public inured to its consequences.

hawk1
04-05-2008, 9:10 PM
How do you define busted?

Lets see, I recently got caught speeding. 90 in a 55 on Hwy 46 going to Carmel Valley. So far it has cost me almost $550 to get it knocked down from a mandatory court fine and a 15 day license suspension, to court fees plus traffic school. I didn't do jail time. As far as I'm concerned it was a victimless crime. Laws are there for a reason. To punish and make the state a lot of money. Nothing else. It's about as busted as I ever been. That good enough?:D

oaklander
04-05-2008, 9:31 PM
I've never heard of this happening. Not only that, but what would the victim of this sting be charged with? Following the law?

I heard from word of mouth about LEs posing as private buyers and/or sellers of firearms and busting the potential buyer or seller for doing an otherwise legal, paper work involved transaction. Busts like this can be considered entrapment so the guy's at Turner's have gun lawyer business cards for the taking for situations like this.

My question is what are the chances of someone responding to one of my forsale threads in the private sale forums that is actually a law man trying to set me up? I'm not a criminal, and I abide by all laws and I respect LEOs but that doesn't mean that I don't worry about being "set up."

leelaw
04-06-2008, 1:04 AM
Laws are there for a reason. To punish and make the state a lot of money.

So when the state needs to pay a couple hundred of thousands of dollars to prosecute, convict, argue appeals and ultimately put a murderer to death, that's a victimless crime with penalties designed to get the state a lot of money?

Are you sure you're not oversimplifying just a teensie bit?

:p

hawk1
04-06-2008, 9:12 AM
So when the state needs to pay a couple hundred of thousands of dollars to prosecute, convict, argue appeals and ultimately put a murderer to death, that's a victimless crime with penalties designed to get the state a lot of money?

Are you sure you're not oversimplifying just a teensie bit?

:p

By definition a murder(er) cannot not be a victimless crime.

And yes, I am simplifying it. Only in the sense that there are crimes that can be committed that do not require jail time and are victimless as BWO wanted defined.

JPglee1
04-06-2008, 9:30 AM
Lets see, I recently got caught speeding. 90 in a 55 on Hwy 46 going to Carmel Valley. So far it has cost me almost $550 to get it knocked down from a mandatory court fine and a 15 day license suspension, to court fees plus traffic school. I didn't do jail time. As far as I'm concerned it was a victimless crime. Laws are there for a reason. To punish and make the state a lot of money. Nothing else. It's about as busted as I ever been. That good enough?:D

Dont get me wrong, Ive had sports cars and I speed a lot, but 90 in a 55 is pushing it, for safety reasons. Im glad it worked out for you and Im glad no one pulled out in front of you!!!

Now it also depends on what yer driving. If you're in a civic its different than a corvette that has decent brakes. BUT still, 35 over the speed limit is pushing it!


J

P.S. I got a 107 in a 70 once in my "youth" so Im not perfect either. Dang porsches get away from you :D

pnkssbtz
04-06-2008, 10:08 AM
In that case, how is it possible for someone to be stung for a legal transfer of a firearm through a dealer?

What if the firearm is not on the approved handgun list, and the LEO's aren't aware of the fact that for a PPT the approved handgun list does not matter?

After all the Orange County LEO's think that Kershaw assisted openers are "switchblades" and many other think an OLL is an "assault" weapon despite the BB/Lock or MM grip.

wilit
04-06-2008, 10:23 AM
Lets see, I recently got caught speeding. 90 in a 55 on Hwy 46 going to Carmel Valley. So far it has cost me almost $550 to get it knocked down from a mandatory court fine and a 15 day license suspension, to court fees plus traffic school. I didn't do jail time. As far as I'm concerned it was a victimless crime. Laws are there for a reason. To punish and make the state a lot of money. Nothing else. It's about as busted as I ever been. That good enough?:D

:confused: You're comparing speeding to an "under the table" firearm transaction? How about comparing apples to apples? Speeding is a driving infraction. Selling a non-C&R firearm in CA without an FFL is a felony. I'm pretty sure they don't issue tickets for those.

hawk1
04-06-2008, 10:24 AM
Dont get me wrong, Ive had sports cars and I speed a lot, but 90 in a 55 is pushing it, for safety reasons. Im glad it worked out for you and Im glad no one pulled out in front of you!!!

Now it also depends on what yer driving. If you're in a civic its different than a corvette that has decent brakes. BUT still, 35 over the speed limit is pushing it!


J

P.S. I got a 107 in a 70 once in my "youth" so Im not perfect either. Dang porsches get away from you :D


This is what I drive an 07 C6, and yes it has a nice set of Z06 brakes too...:p The part of Hwy 46 I was on is between interstate 5 and the 101. I had just gone around a farm truck doing about 45. My bad luck was after I crossed back into my lane an oncoming CHP got me on rader. It is what it is. Not too many crossroads, but there are some.
http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd283/hawk1C6/2007%20C6/C6side.jpg

hawk1
04-06-2008, 10:30 AM
:confused: You're comparing speeding to an "under the table" firearm transaction? How about comparing apples to apples? Speeding is a driving infraction. Selling a non-C&R firearm in CA without an FFL is a felony. I'm pretty sure they don't issue tickets for those.

No, he ultimately asked what I thought what would be described as a victimless crime. I used what happened to me recently as an example of what I would call victimless. Not to compare it with an under the counter transaction.
How about you go back and re-read how it got to that point. :rolleyes:

Mad Max
04-06-2008, 11:15 PM
O.k. I am new to this board and been reading around it some. A good gun in question about selling in California would be the Cobray PM-11. According to what I've been reading here you can do A PPT legally. I tried to sell mine to someone else in California a couple of years ago. All the gun shops I talked to in my area (los Angeles County) said I could not sell it in this state. Turner's in Norwalk said I could try it and all that would happen would be that the gun would get confisgated I would get picked up. I called BATF and they never responded back.
I could understand some LEO's tring to buy this gun and then asking about high cap mags. Just to see if they get a bite. But that would be a lot of trouble just to bust a small fry like me. I think anyone in Califonia who legally owns a gun would not risk losing any or all gun rights over a little thing like high cap mags for sale. Its not worth the risk.

Mitch
04-07-2008, 8:15 AM
You guys sure he's not referring to stories about LEOs propositioning law abiding citizens to do under the table transactions? I've read about Calgunners dealing with that at shows and such.

Google Randy Weaver.

If someone asks you to break the law, it's not that hard to simply refuse.

CSACANNONEER
04-07-2008, 6:09 PM
If someone keeps insisting that you break the law. I say, set up a time and place and bring your friendly nieghborhood DOJ agent with you! Turn the table on the clown and get him busted!

FortCourageArmory
04-07-2008, 7:06 PM
A simple "No" usually works to avoid such situations.

Satex
04-07-2008, 8:19 PM
If someone keeps insisting that you break the law. I say, set up a time and place and bring your friendly nieghborhood DOJ agent with you! Turn the table on the clown and get him busted!

Bad idea. Say no, go report it to the Police and that's it.

packnrat
04-07-2008, 11:09 PM
Yes, we are also looking to bust drivers who are traveling the speed limit. It was a recent training item sent down from the state. WE WILL GET YOU LAW ABIDERS IF IT IS THE LAST THING WE DO!

Toopercent, lay off the jenkem. Thanks.

all a leo has to do is write a deffernt speed on the ticket and the judge aproves it.

before anyone says it can not happen it did to me twice years back.

driving a cj7 jeep, a city cop said i was doing 72mph..the jeep could not even go that fast down a steep hill.
and another time a deffernt city. said i was going faster than the posted (35) but i was being pased up at that time. he went after me as i was a slower easer to catch target. again i was not speeding.

end rant.

returning this thred back to your control..


.