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510dat
04-03-2008, 2:06 PM
http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/23/2302.asp

California: Police Raid Car Enthusiast Gathering, Generate Revenue
Police raid Riverside, California parking lot to issue modified car tickets at local car enthusiast gathering.

Parking lot raidUsing $503,000 in federal and state gas tax revenue to pay for overtime, nine police agencies in Riverside, California sent more than one hundred police officers to surround a gathering of automotive enthusiasts. Owners of imported sport compact cars had gathered at the Canyon Crossing shopping center on Friday night to swap stories, talk about their passion for cars and show off the latest enhancements to their rides. At around 11pm police surprised participants by blocking all exits with fifty police cruisers. Officers then began a warrantless search and interrogation operation of the 150 vehicles that were present.

"If you're not into street racing, why would you need that?" Riverside Police Traffic Sergeant Skip Showalter asked an enthusiast during a similar crackdown last year. "Why would you want more power going to your car?"

Police issued a total of forty-eight tickets for "engine modifications" with police accusing the owners of the parked vehicles of being street racers. Another fifty tickets were issued for paperwork violations, dark window tinting and lack of a front license plate. The most revenue, however, will be generated from the fees imposed on twenty vehicles that were confiscated. Despite labeling the parking lot raid as taking place at a "street racing venue," Riverside Police offered no evidence that any street racing actually took place.

Across the state, gas tax funds are regularly used to fund similar crackdowns that generate big revenue. In 2004, the California Highway Patrol issued a total of 101,553 "modified car" citations worth $10.5 million according to CHP data obtained by TheNewspaper.

Other law enforcement agencies participating in Friday night's raid included the California Highway Patrol, Riverside County Sheriff's Department, and police from Baldwin Park, Fontana, Irwindale, Moreno Valley, Ontario and Mount San Jacinto Community College.



While not directly related to the second amendment or the gun community, I feel that the California gun community should get a hold of groups like these people (the car enthusiasts) in opposition of illegal abuses of power.

At the very least, we could make some friends and educate them about their 4th amendment rights, which I suspect that this group was totally ignorant of.

Gun enthusiasts are a small minority in Ca, as are car enthusiasts, but in combination we're a much larger minority. Both groups are subject to some extremely oppressive legislation, and I think we could help each other out.

deleted by PC police
04-03-2008, 2:09 PM
Good Idea, I think. I sent a link to my buddy at West Coast Fords.

DrunkSkunk
04-03-2008, 2:12 PM
Other law enforcement agencies participating in Friday night's raid included the California Highway Patrol, Riverside County Sheriff's Department, and police from Baldwin Park, Fontana, Irwindale, Moreno Valley, Ontario and Mount San Jacinto Community College.

Looks like everyone wanted a piece of the action.
$$$$$

Jicko
04-03-2008, 2:13 PM
There are guidelines as to what is legal and what is illegal.

Illegal modifications to cars are .... ILLEGAL.

Illegal modifications to firearms are... ILLEGAL.

We, here, keeps thing LEGAL.... we DO NOT *ILLEGALLY* modify firearms.... if someone ILLEGALLY modify a LEGAL CA AR into an ILLEGAL AW, we have no sympathy for that....

So.... I don't know if we should endorse illegal automobile modifications here....

They need a NRA-clone for cars.... and fight the laws and to make their "modifications" legal.... NOT to ignore the law and make illegal modifications and then cry about it.

scottj
04-03-2008, 2:23 PM
It becomes increasingly difficult to maintain a positive attitude toward police enforcement in this state. Gee, why would you want more power? I don't know, why would you want more money and bother to work overtime to get it? I bet all those cops working overtime at this bust are spending their ill gotten gains on coke and kiddie porn. We better get a grant to investigate the connection between police overtime and illicit drugs and child abuse.

deleted by PC police
04-03-2008, 2:26 PM
There are guidelines as to what is legal and what is illegal.

Illegal modifications to cars are .... ILLEGAL.

Illegal modifications to firearms are... ILLEGAL.

We, here, keeps thing LEGAL.... we DO NOT *ILLEGALLY* modify firearms.... if someone ILLEGALLY modify a LEGAL CA AR into an ILLEGAL AW, we have no sympathy for that....

So.... I don't know if we should endorse illegal automobile modifications here....

They need a NRA-clone for cars.... and fight the laws and to make their "modifications" legal.... NOT to ignore the law and make illegal modifications and then cry about it.

I think the point was the government was out of line. They can't just call the event a street racing event and violate attendees rights anymore than they can call a gun show a heavily armed gang meeting and violate ours.

Casual Observer
04-03-2008, 2:28 PM
There are guidelines as to what is legal and what is illegal.

Illegal modifications to cars are .... ILLEGAL.

Illegal modifications to firearms are... ILLEGAL.

We, here, keeps thing LEGAL.... we DO NOT *ILLEGALLY* modify firearms.... if someone ILLEGALLY modify a LEGAL CA AR into an ILLEGAL AW, we have no sympathy for that....

So.... I don't know if we should endorse illegal automobile modifications here....

They need a NRA-clone for cars.... and fight the laws and to make their "modifications" legal.... NOT to ignore the law and make illegal modifications and then cry about it.

I have to agree.....to an extent. Some things are easily seen while the car is sitting. Window tinting. Lowered too far. No front plate. etc.

However, going through the car with a fine tooth comb without a warrant 'fishing' for technical violations sounds like a pretty straight forward violation of the 4th Amendment.

It's also interesting to see who they target- the rice rocket crowd. I doubt they do this to a gathering of muscle car enthusiasts or a group of guys with $100,000+ euro sports cars.

510dat
04-03-2008, 2:29 PM
There are guidelines as to what is legal and what is illegal.

Illegal modifications to cars are .... ILLEGAL.

Illegal modifications to firearms are... ILLEGAL.

We, here, keeps thing LEGAL.... we DO NOT *ILLEGALLY* modify firearms.... if someone ILLEGALLY modify a LEGAL CA AR into an ILLEGAL AW, we have no sympathy for that....

So.... I don't know if we should endorse illegal automobile modifications here....

They need a NRA-clone for cars.... and fight the laws and to make their "modifications" legal.... NOT to ignore the law and make illegal modifications and then cry about it.

Some modifications to cars are illegal. Many modifications are perfectly legal, but ignorant cops will cite you for them anyway. I.e., I've talked to people with bone stock cars who got tickets for loud exhausts.

What we are endorsing is spreading the word that cops don't have the right to search or inspect vehicles on private property without a warrant.

In some cities in Ca, cops can seize & sell cars that participate in street racing. What they did here was seize cars associated with the image of
street racing. It's equivalent to cops going to a gun show, locking the exits, inspecting the guns for modifications, and seizing ones that look like they might have been used in a crime. Because, why would you want an AR/AK if you're not going to commit a crime? Why would you want a pistol if you're not going to conceal it?

We have a lot in common with these kids.

scottj
04-03-2008, 2:30 PM
It used to be the AAA but now that they are really just another car insurance company they don't push back against the state too much anymore.

Can someone explain how this stuff isn't thrown out of court immediately because it's unreasonable search and seizure or how this doesn't infringe on the right to assemble?

DrunkSkunk
04-03-2008, 2:30 PM
"Why would you want more power going to your car?"

yeah i was lmfao at that myself ... guess according to that idiots thinking, BMW should not offer the M series, Mecedes should not offer AMG package, Cadillac should not offer V series right, I mean, why would you want more power going to your car?

G60
04-03-2008, 2:36 PM
""If you're not into street racing, why would you need that?" Riverside Police Traffic Sergeant Skip Showalter asked an enthusiast during a similar crackdown last year. "Why would you want more power going to your car?"




how about the people who go to the 1/4 mile track on the weekends? how about the people who participate in SCCA events on the weekends? how about the people that modify their cars just for the fun of it?

i can't believe anyone in here sides with these officers.

Harrison_Bergeron
04-03-2008, 2:36 PM
Not to be too harsh, but you really should do some research before a post like that, if you had you would know that LEOs are just as informed on what is legal for a car as they are for what is legal for a gun.


There are guidelines as to what is legal and what is illegal.

Illegal modifications to cars are .... ILLEGAL.

Illegal modifications to firearms are... ILLEGAL.

We, here, keeps thing LEGAL.... we DO NOT *ILLEGALLY* modify firearms.... if someone ILLEGALLY modify a LEGAL CA AR into an ILLEGAL AW, we have no sympathy for that....

So.... I don't know if we should endorse illegal automobile modifications here....

They need a NRA-clone for cars.... and fight the laws and to make their "modifications" legal.... NOT to ignore the law and make illegal modifications and then cry about it.

GenLee
04-03-2008, 2:39 PM
:nuts::driving::eek::puke: Thats all I've got to say about this crap.

saki302
04-03-2008, 2:41 PM
They need to find a privately owned large lot for car enthusiast and bike night gatherings. If the cops show up- tell them to pound sand, it's a private lot :D

I see large amounts of revenue can be made from this (charge $10-15 per car/bike/etc., have them sign a waiver).

-Dave

pnkssbtz
04-03-2008, 2:42 PM
Not to be too harsh, but you really should do some research before a post like that, if you had you would know that LEOs are just as informed on what is legal for a car as they are for what is legal for a gun.

+1

When you get pulled over and ticketed for having a loud exhaust on a stock car, when the actual regulation states that the audio signature has to be below 96db, but the cop doesn't have to use instrumentation to verify this and can just use his discretion, then you will understand why this incident is so full of $@!# I am still quite shocked.


This incident WAS NOT about keeping the streets safe. This incident was about as many PD's trying to get their thumb in the pie so they can get some revenue; because that is what traffic cops have become, tax collectors with blanket authority.

(And when I say "become" I don't mean the actual guys in uniform, I mean the way the City and State use the traffic enforcement police purely as a source of revenue and not the intended purpose of keeping our roads safe.)

Harrison_Bergeron
04-03-2008, 2:42 PM
If you're not into street racing, why would you need that?" Riverside Police Traffic Sergeant Skip Showalter asked an enthusiast during a similar crackdown last year. "Why would you want more power going to your car?"


It's even more stupid than many understand, chances are we are talking about little four cylinders. $1000 in parts can get you as little as 10hp, if the import guys were smart they would start playing up the mpg aspect. You may only free up 10hp, but it is by making your car more efficient, which means it consumes less gas, which means you are saving money and helping the environment. I plan to start an old CR-X soon, my goal is to warrant a "Your Prius Sucks" sticker.

510dat
04-03-2008, 2:43 PM
They need to find a privately owned large lot for car enthusiast and bike night gatherings. If the cops show up- tell them to pound sand, it's a private lot :D

I see large amounts of revenue can be made from this (charge $10-15 per car/bike/etc., have them sign a waiver).

-Dave

They did. Cops came anyway.

GuyW
04-03-2008, 2:44 PM
Not to be too harsh, but you really should do some research before a post like that, if you had you would know that LEOs are just as informed on what is legal for a car as they are for what is legal for a gun.

You're serious aren't you! LOL!

...and wrong on both counts...

StraightShooter
04-03-2008, 2:44 PM
This really pisses me off. If the guys werent driving around with their tinted windows up then they committed no crime. If the cops pulled the people over for loud exhaust and wrote them a ticket then fine but they were in a parking lot and not on the road way. You cant issue a ticket just because a car has tinted windows. Talk about a freaking waste of the gas tax too. This article just proves its a was to syphon money from the taxpayers to line their own departments pockets. Any jack*** who asks me why i need all that stuff on my car to make it go fast is gonna get cussed out or humiliated because its not if their business. Dang im pissed!

nobody_special
04-03-2008, 2:45 PM
This is so wrong. I don't see how the detention en mass of a large group of people can be lawful, absent probable cause for each person blocked in.

Can someone explain how this stuff isn't thrown out of court immediately because it's unreasonable search and seizure or how this doesn't infringe on the right to assemble?

I'd consider this sort of action to cause a prior restraint upon the right of assembly.

It's not enough for evidence to be merely thrown out. There must be some real consequence and penalty for such a blatant violation of civil rights. Otherwise it will just happen again, and again... and worse each time. Recourse, (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000242----000-.html) anyone (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode42/usc_sec_42_00001983----000-.html)?

Seriously, it's long past time to remind the authorities that this is America, not China.

:79:

eta34
04-03-2008, 2:45 PM
I'll chime in from the LEO perspective. First, to the idiot with the "pig" comment. At least find something original. Perhaps a nice doughnut reference or something like that.

Second, lets get the facts straight here. Engine inspections may be done by the CHP or other specially trained officers without consent and without warrant. I will look for the penal code or applicable case law. In addition, their training and experience allows them to develop the probable cause that a normal beat cop (such as me) would not have.

Second, I believe this event took place in a public parking lot.

Finally, many of you will gloss over the following statements and say that I am blindly defending LEO based on my above paragraphs. I simply explained what is LEGAL, not my personal feelings. My personal feelings: Who cares about illegal modifications? I certainly don't, as long as they do not affect safety. I have ZERO problems with cracking down on illegal street racing...those guys are dangerous and cause collisions.

Harrison_Bergeron
04-03-2008, 2:47 PM
You're serious aren't you! LOL!

...and wrong on both counts...

Care to enlighten me on what he hell you are talking about? At least three times a week there is a thread that involves a cop telling someone with an EBR why it is illegal, plus there is the BSE deal. Likewise people get fix it tickets for modifications to their vehicles that have no limitations anywhere in the vehicle code.

Hopi
04-03-2008, 2:49 PM
if the import guys were smart they would start playing up the mpg aspect. You may only free up 10hp, but it is by making your car more efficient, which means it consumes less gas, which means you are saving money and helping the environment.

But where then would they get the money for these bogus 'crime fighting' schemes? Look at where the $$ comes from to fund these types of revenue-producing initiatives. Then look at the revenue they generate.....why would they want people to use less gas when the increasing consumption of gas increases the funds to steal more money from citizens?

Edited to add:

LEOs don't want to stop crime, if they were successful, they would be out of a job. Must be a tiring existence knowing that your job security relies on your consistent failure.

FEDUPWBS
04-03-2008, 2:49 PM
WOW, just WOW. As we are more and more successful fighting for our civil rights, the JBT will just move on to new more profitable endeavors. It will just get worse until there are some major changes.

G60
04-03-2008, 2:51 PM
First, to the idiot with the "pig" comment. At least find something original. Perhaps a nice doughnut reference or something like that.



oops, didn't know it was you I was quoting. sorry to have offended. ;)

maybe i should have said we want more power going to our cars to do longer doughnuts, i'm sure he loves those.

nobody_special
04-03-2008, 2:52 PM
eta34, I agree with your last statement: I have no problem with a crackdown on people who are endangering the safety of others.

But that doesn't seem to be the case here.

Second, I believe this event took place in a public parking lot.

Shopping center parking lots are public land? :confused: Even so, I see a high probability for multiple unlawful detentions. You can't simply detain everyone in a parking lot. For example, when people are arrested during protests, my understanding is that individuals are targeted for violations... the police can't simply arrest everyone on the street, right?

Engine inspections may be done by the CHP or other specially trained officers without consent and without warrant. I will look for the penal code or applicable case law.

Again, absent PC I don't see how this is not a violation of the 4th amendment, much like the law that allows a check to ensure a firearm is unloaded.

Kestryll
04-03-2008, 2:54 PM
It sounds like the police were wrong here and it looks like they may lose even more tax dollars by the time it is over.

That said, keep it civil and knock off the name calling.
Next 'pig' comment comes back next week possibly.

Hopi
04-03-2008, 2:56 PM
I'll chime in from the LEO perspective. First, to the idiot with the "pig" comment. At least find something original. Perhaps a nice doughnut reference or something like that.



Funny, you called him an idiot and chastised him for calling someone a name? Wow.:rolleyes:

LEOs don't fall too far from the tree

Harrison_Bergeron
04-03-2008, 2:57 PM
Again, absent PC I don't see how this is not a violation of the 4th amendment, much like the law that allows a check to ensure a firearm is unloaded.

Whenever that question comes up I am always told that it is the license plate that gets you, it is supposed to certify that your vehicle conforms to rules of the road that are maintained by the state, basically it is a privilege to use the state maintained roadways, and thus we have no rights on them. Again, not my opinion, just the rationale that has been used to defend these actions in the past.

Danield
04-03-2008, 2:57 PM
wow, a lot of cop bashing. illegal is illegal no matter how you look at it. if they did indeed have illegal modifications to their cars, then good for the cops to cite them for it. if they didnt then they shouldnt have anything to worry about. besides the majority of those cars are just annoying, loud lawn mower engines.

Kestryll
04-03-2008, 2:58 PM
LEOs don't fall too far from the tree


Neither do ignorant posters who fling insults like 'pig' or 'JBT'.

eta34
04-03-2008, 2:58 PM
I guess I should just accept the constant JBT and pig references. I should accept the constant broad generalizations about my profession. I apologize for my name calling. It was done in anger and was wrong.

However, during my entire time here, I have tried to help foster a good relationship between LEO and the "public." I have posted case law that affects us all. I have tried to explain relevant law. However, I am done here.

pnkssbtz
04-03-2008, 2:59 PM
I'll chime in from the LEO perspective. First, to the idiot with the "pig" comment. At least find something original. Perhaps a nice doughnut reference or something like that.

Second, lets get the facts straight here. Engine inspections may be done by the CHP or other specially trained officers without consent and without warrant. I will look for the penal code or applicable case law. In addition, their training and experience allows them to develop the probable cause that a normal beat cop (such as me) would not have.

Second, I believe this event took place in a public parking lot.

Finally, many of you will gloss over the following statements and say that I am blindly defending LEO based on my above paragraphs. I simply explained what is LEGAL, not my personal feelings. My personal feelings: Who cares about illegal modifications? I certainly don't, as long as they do not affect safety. I have ZERO problems with cracking down on illegal street racing...those guys are dangerous and cause collisions.

Stopping a single vehicle is quite a bit different from detaining (re:arrest where suspect is released) everyone present and then doing an inspection.

And it was done at a grocery store parking lot, not on the street. So, private property.

StraightShooter
04-03-2008, 3:01 PM
Another thing was just thinking of was that they have to have some kind of undercover thing going on here because otherwise they would not have known where all these people were going to congregate in time to get all of those police agencies coordinated to get there at the same time. This sounds like serious entrapment. Probably the guy that orchestrated the event is an undercover cop. So not only are they wasting time and taxpayer money to carry out these shenanigans but they are obviously putting more effort into it than it appears on the surface. They could be doing far better things with their time. I wish we could just get rid of the police sometimes. Its pathetic too that they needed to get so many agencies involved when the local agency could have handled it well enough.

GuyW
04-03-2008, 3:03 PM
...LEOs don't want to stop crime, if they were successful, they would be out of a job....

I wouldn't go that far, but its a truism that Crime DOES Pay...

Crime pays:
...cops...
...bail bondsmen...
...lawyers...
...judges...
...government agencies...
...even politicians (maybe in more than one way...)...

StraightShooter
04-03-2008, 3:03 PM
However, I am done here.


Good, now put you effort to something usefull and try and educate your LEO buddies instead of defending their heinous actions.

Hopi
04-03-2008, 3:05 PM
Neither do ignorant posters who fling insults like 'pig' or 'JBT'.

Agreed. But furthering the behavior by participating in it is not the way to make that point.

nobody_special
04-03-2008, 3:05 PM
basically it is a privilege to use the state maintained roadways, and thus we have no rights on them. Again, not my opinion, just the rationale that has been used to defend these actions in the past.

I'm glad it's not your opinion. ;) One does not give up 4th amendment rights when obtaining a license, or by being on public land.

Kestryll
04-03-2008, 3:06 PM
Good, now put you effort to something usefull and try and educate your LEO buddies instead of defending their heinous actions.

Wanna go with him?

Kestryll
04-03-2008, 3:08 PM
Agreed. But furthering the behavior by participating in it is not the way to make that point.

Neither is the blind acceptance both tacit and vocal agreement with the 'pig' and 'JBT' comment that is too often seen here.

Hopi
04-03-2008, 3:09 PM
I wouldn't go that far, but its a truism that crime pays...

Crime pays:
...cops...
...bail bondsmen...
...lawyers...
...judges...
...even politicians (maybe in more than one way...)...

When people profit from illegal behavior, what motivation do they have to permanently eliminate that behavior?

If you were, paid by the hour to build one house, and you were told that there isn't a cap on your billable hours, but that when you finished, you would be out of a job.....would you ever finish that house?

StraightShooter
04-03-2008, 3:15 PM
Wanna go with him?

If you are referring to going and helping him educate his LEO buddies then absloutely I would love to help him because I know that on my own they dont listen to a dang thing I have to say. Maybe if they hear it from one of their friends then they will listen. For me trying to tell an LEO about things relating to the law and about how they are wrong about something is like standing in front of a giant fan and throwing confetti. No matter how right you are it just gets blown back in your face.

Danield
04-03-2008, 3:23 PM
whats JBT?
i did a google search and it came up Jewelers Board of Trade

99sparks
04-03-2008, 3:24 PM
Not to be too harsh, but you really should do some research before a post like that, if you had you would know that LEOs are just as informed on what is legal for a car as they are for what is legal for a gun.
Oh yes the police are real gun experts! A few of them, normally the good ones. However, one that ask a friend of mine where is the safety on this. It was a replica Black Powder revolver! What safety. Then he asks him how to unload it. I believe he told him he normally just shoots it. At that point the officer just handed it back. (I will admit this did not take place in CA)(No I donít have a BP and yes I do know how to unload one without shooting)

DedEye
04-03-2008, 3:31 PM
whats JBT?
i did a google search and it came up Jewelers Board of Trade

Jack Booted Thugs, derogatory name for Law Enforcement Officers (LEOs).

I agree with everyone here that says "illegal is illegal." It holds true for the cops too; an illegal detention of a group of people with no probable cause IS illegal, good point :p.

elSquid
04-03-2008, 3:38 PM
I guess I should just accept the constant JBT and pig references. I should accept the constant broad generalizations about my profession. I apologize for my name calling. It was done in anger and was wrong.

However, during my entire time here, I have tried to help foster a good relationship between LEO and the "public." I have posted case law that affects us all. I have tried to explain relevant law. However, I am done here.

Take a day, cool off, and please come back.

-- Michael

emc002
04-03-2008, 3:47 PM
So there's two camps here:
Non-LEO is always right
LEO is always right

"Nobody but a fool is always right." - David Hare

This thread had deteriorated the fastest of any I've seen (excepting the Turkish Prison of course), with multiple ban-threats, and yet people persist?
Lock this thread and let's get back to playing nice.

Mitch
04-03-2008, 3:48 PM
While not directly related to the second amendment or the gun community, I feel that the California gun community should get a hold of groups like these people (the car enthusiasts) in opposition of illegal abuses of power.


It's absolutely related to gun control! Doesn't this sound familiar to all of us?

"If you're not into street racing, why would you need that?" Riverside Police Traffic Sergeant Skip Showalter asked an enthusiast during a similar crackdown last year. "Why would you want more power going to your car?"

BTW, my first car was a '71 510. I'd like to get another one of these days and supercharge it.

Hopi
04-03-2008, 3:58 PM
So there's two camps here:
Non-LEO is always right
LEO is always right

"Nobody but a fool is always right." - David Hare

This thread had deteriorated the fastest of any I've seen (excepting the Turkish Prison of course), with multiple ban-threats, and yet people persist?
Lock this thread and let's get back to playing nice.

One question for you, perhaps a loaded one....

Do you feel that the $$ and resources spent to run this 'safety' scheme, could've been better spent to address relevant issues?
-Our prisons are full
-Our state is bankrupt
-Our elected representatives and supporting agencies are politically motivated and downright corrupt
.....and we just spent half a million dollars to ticket people for putting fart cans on their cars?

Is there a right and wrong here? On a grand scale, yes.

Mitch
04-03-2008, 3:59 PM
Another thing was just thinking of was that they have to have some kind of undercover thing going on here because otherwise they would not have known where all these people were going to congregate in time to get all of those police agencies coordinated to get there at the same time.

Not really. This event was probably a "cruise," basically a weekly gathering of motorheads (where no one cruises, they just all park their cars with the hood open and stand around and talk about cars). Cruises are common among musclecar and vintage guys, and I guess the import kids are getting into it too. Often they are advertised in the local newspapers.

As a bit of a motorhead myself, I would be interested in learning what, precisely, constitutes an illegal engine modification. I was under the impression that anything was fine as long as the car passed emissions. It is impossible to determine whether a car is too loud if it is not running.

Hopi
04-03-2008, 4:02 PM
Not really. This event was probably a "cruise," basically a weekly gathering of motorheads (where no one cruises, they just all park their cars with the hood open and stand around and talk about cars). Cruises are common among musclecar and vintage guys, and I guess the import kids are getting into it too. Often they are advertised in the local newspapers.

As a bit of a motorhead myself, I would be interested in learning what, precisely, constitutes an illegal engine modification. I was under the impression that anything was fine as long as the car passed emissions. It is impossible to determine whether a car is too loud if it is not running.

Each 'performance' non-oem part need to pass and then display CARB authorizations. The cars will almost always pass smog with similar (non-CARB approved) parts, but that isn't the point of the regs.
These are revenue generating laws, period.

StraightShooter
04-03-2008, 4:04 PM
Not really. This event was probably a "cruise," basically a weekly gathering of motorheads (where no one cruises, they just all park their cars with the hood open and stand around and talk about cars). Cruises are common among musclecar and vintage guys, and I guess the import kids are getting into it too. Often they are advertised in the local newspapers.

As a bit of a motorhead myself, I would be interested in learning what, precisely, constitutes an illegal engine modification. I was under the impression that anything was fine as long as the car passed emissions. It is impossible to determine whether a car is too loud if it is not running.

You might be right about that but I still have a problem with LEO's sitting down and reading the classifieds and saying "Hmm..... which group of people should we go after today..... gun owners, car owners, store owners........"

yellowfin
04-03-2008, 4:05 PM
There are guidelines as to what is legal and what is illegal.

Illegal modifications to cars are .... ILLEGAL.

Illegal modifications to firearms are... ILLEGAL.

Ridiculous laws are...RIDICULOUS.
Things that are none of the state's business are...NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS. (Regardless of what reasoning their hallucinations tell them.) Do not indulge their idiotic fantasy that anything that moves is their free realm to regulate and dominate down to the last milimeter. It is not.

acolytes
04-03-2008, 4:06 PM
yeah i was lmfao at that myself ... guess according to that idiots thinking, BMW should not offer the M series, Mecedes should not offer AMG package, Cadillac should not offer V series right, I mean, why would you want more power going to your car?

I know why I want more power to my car.... So I don't have to cut a hole in the floorboard and do the flinstones when I'm going up a hill.:confused:

Hopi
04-03-2008, 4:10 PM
You wanna see anti-LEO? Check out what the rich car enthusiasts have to say- http://mbworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=237852

It's safe to say that LEOs are probably not members of that forum, and thus LEO questioning isn't as taboo as it is here.

emc002
04-03-2008, 4:12 PM
One question for you, perhaps a loaded one....
Is there a right and wrong here? On a grand scale, yes.

That's ok, I like loaded questions, but I can spot a Straw Man argument a mile away.
Straw Man Argument: To describe a position that superficially resembles an opponent's actual view but is easier to refute, then attribute that position to the opponent (for example, deliberately overstating the opponent's position

But, I'll play along:
Do you feel that the $$ and resources spent to run this 'safety' scheme, could've been better spent to address relevant issues? - YES.
However, you're making the assumption that the revenue generated from this action will not exceed the cost (i.e. they might make money out of this deal). That won't be known until all the legalities of the seizures and fines have settled out.
This is not to say that I approve of this as a money generating source, it's just like ticket quotas which I oppose.

Prisons - State issue not local, therefore this argument is irrelevant.

State Bankrupt - See above.

Corruption - Cite your facts and sources relating to corruption of 1) this particular LEO agency and 2) the politicians directly related to this particular agency then I can answer better.

Grand Scale Right/Wrong - To clarify, not putting words in your mouth, but your statement is confusing in the given context: Are you saying that it is wrong to punish illegal behavior?

emc002
04-03-2008, 4:24 PM
From the Riverside PD Press release, here's some information that, strangely enough, did not make it into the original post...

http://www.riversideca.gov/rpd/press/mar29b08.pdf

"Twenty vehicles were impounded and towed – one found with a stolen engine and transmission, 14 for altered engine or transmission identification information, and four for drivers without a license.
There were... arrests at the scene, one for drunk in public, one for resisting an officer..."

ETA: The amount of the raid was NOT $503,000, rather the raid was funded by a grant which totalled $503,000. Not the same thing, but another nice example of a Straw Man argument.
http://www.pe.com/localnews/riverside/stories/PE_News_Local_R_streetrace01.4234d9b.html

Hopi
04-03-2008, 4:28 PM
That's ok, I like loaded questions, but I can spot a
But, I'll play along:
Do you feel that the $$ and resources spent to run this 'safety' scheme, could've been better spent to address relevant issues? - YES.
However, you're making the assumption that the revenue generated from this action will not exceed the cost (i.e. they might make money out of this deal). That won't be known until all the legalities of the seizures and fines have settled out.
This is not to say that I approve of this as a money generating source, it's just like ticket quotas which I oppose.
We are in agreement here. Laws should not be written and people should not be made criminals to fund the state pension and health care plans.
In 2004, the California Highway Patrol issued a total of 101,553 "modified car" citations worth $10.5 million according to CHP data obtained by TheNewspaper.



Prisons - State issue not local, therefore this argument is irrelevant.
Other law enforcement agencies participating in Friday night's raid included the California Highway Patrol, Riverside County Sheriff's Department, and police from Baldwin Park, Fontana, Irwindale, Moreno Valley, Ontario and Mount San Jacinto Community College.
Seems regional to me, as well as the CHP being involved making it a state-agency collaboration.

State Bankrupt - See above. It would be better, imho, to spend that money where it is needed. Again, fart cans are not the problem we should be facing as tax payers. And yes, STATE tax monies went to fund this.

Corruption - Cite your facts and sources relating to corruption of 1) this particular LEO agency and 2) the politicians directly related to this particular agency then I can answer better. As an example, please note the politically influenced and legally corrupt regime of Bill Lockyer and Allison Meriless. Also, please note the ongoing Perata FBI corruption probe. Those are your chief law enforcement figures in CA, and the leader of our law-making legislation.

Grand Scale Right/Wrong - To clarify, not putting words in your mouth, but your statement is confusing in the given context: Are you saying that it is wrong to punish illegal behavior? It is wrong to criminalize behavior in an obvious attempt to generate revenue. It is wrong to appropriate monies and man-power to an issue that is obviously not a critical condition emergency. It is right to question why we are wasting money on this. It is right to question our reluctance to question the artificial creation of more criminal classes.



.....

LAK Supply
04-03-2008, 4:36 PM
"If you're not into street racing, why would you need that?" Riverside Police Traffic Sergeant Skip Showalter asked an enthusiast during a similar crackdown last year. "Why would you want more power going to your car?"

How about "it's none of your ******* business what I want on my car or why."

Why are you a cop? Are you compensating for the trash can issues in your youth? No? Then why would you want a job like that?

I hate cops like that.

scootergmc
04-03-2008, 4:39 PM
I'm sorry, but the article was written with so much bias it might as well have been written by a few Calguns members. Go to the website... you'll see many articles with the *same* (ahem...) slant.

Might as well have thrown out a net on a trawler.

Oh yeah- IBTL.

Max-the-Silent
04-03-2008, 4:45 PM
Coming to a city near you...

Nothing a cash-strapped municipality likes more than a new income stream.

A sister program is run in San Mateo and Santa Clara counties against motorcyclists that ride on Hwy's 35 & 9 on weekends.

"Maximum Enforcement" by county SD's and the CHP each summer bring in serious money through fines and penalty enhancement. Partially funded by a fed. grant to pay for up-front OT and other costs through the County Road Enforcement (CORE) program.

emc002
04-03-2008, 4:46 PM
Laws should not be written and people should not be made criminals to fund the state pension and health care plans.
- OK, so we agree on that.

Prisons / Bankrupt - I stand corrected, see my edited post. The grant came from the California Office of Transportation and Safety and although it did not cost $503,000 as stated by the OP, the money could have been better used IMO.

Corruption - Cite your facts and sources relating to corruption of 1) this particular LEO agency and 2) the politicians directly related to this particular agency then I can answer better.

As an example, please note the politically influenced and legally corrupt regime of Bill Lockyer and Allison Meriless. Political influence, although distasteful, is not necessarily corruption. As far as I could tell, AG Lockyer, Meriless (or Iggy for that matter) were not involved, so how does that address my question?
Also, please note the ongoing Perata FBI corruption probe. Ummm, STRAW MAN. Answer the original question, not overgeneralizations, irrelevant to my argument that strengthen yours.


It is wrong to criminalize behavior in an obvious attempt to generate revenue. I agree that it is wrong to criminalize behavior SOLELY to generate revenue, but not to generate revenue from criminal behavior.
It is wrong to appropriate monies and man-power to an issue that is obviously not a critical condition emergency. Agreed, but you're assuming they'd be doing something better with their time, specifically related to "critical condition emergencies" which is fallacious.
It is right to question why we are wasting money on this. - Your definition of waste and mine are different.
It is right to question our reluctance to question the artificial creation of more criminal classes. - Please define "the artificial creation of more criminal classes".

emc002
04-03-2008, 4:56 PM
This justifies detaining and warrantless searching of the 130 other vehicles and their passengers? Because they were parked in the same parking lot as one guy with a stolen engine?

Man, what is it with CalGunners and their Straw Man Arguments?!?
I never said it was justified, I just noted it was interested what was left out of the OP.

snobordr
04-03-2008, 5:12 PM
I fail to see a problem with any of this. I obey all laws regarding my firearm, why should you be allowed to flaunt the law with regards to your vehicle?

Decoligny
04-03-2008, 5:53 PM
wow, a lot of cop bashing. illegal is illegal no matter how you look at it. if they did indeed have illegal modifications to their cars, then good for the cops to cite them for it. if they didnt then they shouldnt have anything to worry about. besides the majority of those cars are just annoying, loud lawn mower engines.

RANT MODE ON
"Sir, THIS IS THE POLICE, we're going to search your house. If you have anything illegal inside then thank us as we haul you off to jail. If not, then you didn't have anything to worry about." RANT MODE OFF

This is the same rational that caused the founding fathers to pen the bill of rights. It is a blatant violation to be detained and searched without probable cause. And I'm sorry but just being there isn't probable cause.

Bill_in_SD
04-03-2008, 5:54 PM
I posted the article to a car-enthusiast website and the responses were 'cool that caught a guy who stole an engine! ' 'I wish they would do that were I live and weed out the criminals' 'sounds like what they did was legal'

Too many sheeple in that community.....

Mitch
04-03-2008, 5:54 PM
Each 'performance' non-oem part need to pass and then display CARB authorizations. The cars will almost always pass smog with similar (non-CARB approved) parts, but that isn't the point of the regs.
These are revenue generating laws, period.

I still don't understand that. I have two 60s Chevys that are chock-full of non-CARB go-fast parts, and as far as I am aware I am not violating any laws.

eta34
04-03-2008, 6:05 PM
I'd love to see this one.

You mean this? "the moveable nature of an automobile is an exigent circumstance which justifies a warrantless search if there is probable cause to believe that the auto contains contraband or the instrumentality of a crime."
~(Carroll v. United States, Chambers v. Maroney, United States v. Gulma)

I wonder why they chose a group of younger & lower resale car enthusiasts to raid... instead of some older, higher resale car enthusiasts like these guys - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTHyF1F17K4 (whom I can guarantee have more CARB, registration, and modification "crimes" on their hands).

You wanna see anti-LEO? Check out what the rich car enthusiasts (the ones that aren't being busted) have to say- http://mbworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=237852


This will be my final post in this thread. I was done, but after research, I realized I made a mistake. My claim that CHP can do vehicle inspections without warrant was in error. I confused it with their ability to go to an autobody shop or mechanics shop and inspect the vehicles, looking for vin switches, etc. Again, I apologize for that.

The "public-ness" of a parking lot is debatable, and one that I will research. For example, when serving an arrest warrant, a parking lot open to the public is "public." If one is found drunk in such a parking lot, one may be arrested for public intoxication. I think this is an interesting issue.

Second, and as I predicted earlier, someone called me out for defending my fellow LEO. As I predicted, that individual neglected to read the statement where I said that I was not defending them. In fact, I openly stated that I didn't care about engine mods, ect.

ONCE AGAIN, I will state it more clearly. I don't care if you mod your car, as long as it is safe to drive. Put a huge exhaust on it, put a wing on the back, spend 10k on your car for that extra 1.5 horses. I don't care. Just don't drive like an idiot on the road. I AM NOT DEFENDING THIS OPERATION...GET IT?

Finally, I am not in either of the camps described above. Those who believe that all cops are bad are complete morons. Those who blindly defend all cops are equally moronic. Very simply, cops are people. Some good, some bad. The bad we do gets much more press than the plumber who gets arrested for drugs, or the doctor who gets a DUI.

SC_00_05
04-03-2008, 6:14 PM
I'll chime in from the LEO perspective. First, to the idiot with the "pig" comment. At least find something original. Perhaps a nice doughnut reference or something like that.

Second, lets get the facts straight here. Engine inspections may be done by the CHP or other specially trained officers without consent and without warrant. I will look for the penal code or applicable case law. In addition, their training and experience allows them to develop the probable cause that a normal beat cop (such as me) would not have.



I take it those cops are "the only ones professional enough" to not need consent since they're such experts? Isn't Iggy a "firearms expert"?

SC_00_05
04-03-2008, 6:16 PM
wow, a lot of cop bashing. illegal is illegal no matter how you look at it. if they did indeed have illegal modifications to their cars, then good for the cops to cite them for it. if they didnt then they shouldnt have anything to worry about. besides the majority of those cars are just annoying, loud lawn mower engines.

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/21297sheep.jpg

snobordr
04-03-2008, 6:16 PM
If you were in the surrounded parking lot, in your legal non-American car eating some Fatburger, with your legal firearms legally stored in your trunk, and were subjected to a large scale detainment, a warrantless search, and called a streetracer/babykiller by the media you'd see the problem.

But that hasn't happened to you yet, thankfully.

But, I also would not be facing any charges either. I have news for you, I have been subjected to illegal search and I have been called a number of things by police and other people. What do you think pro-gunners are called by the antis? Do you see me crying about it? No.

If you have illegal modifications to your vehicle and hang out in public parking lots in large numbers, and your city has a problem with illegal street racing, its kind of like owning an OLL in early 06. You play the game, you take your chances.

Abuses of power by those with authority is nothing new to gun owners, its nothing new to street racers, its nothing new to people of all types.

ETA: And go ahead, try to claim that not one innocent person has ever been killed by the irresponsible behavior of someone behind the wheel of a modified vehicle on public roadways. Not saying the name calling is appropriate, but clearly there is a risk to the public by some of these people and their behavior.

pnkssbtz
04-03-2008, 6:39 PM
This will be my final post in this thread. I was done, but after research, I realized I made a mistake. My claim that CHP can do vehicle inspections without warrant was in error. I confused it with their ability to go to an autobody shop or mechanics shop and inspect the vehicles, looking for vin switches, etc. Again, I apologize for that.
No problem eta34. Believe it or not, your input and participation here is highly valued.

The "public-ness" of a parking lot is debatable, and one that I will research. For example, when serving an arrest warrant, a parking lot open to the public is "public." If one is found drunk in such a parking lot, one may be arrested for public intoxication. I think this is an interesting issue.I think you are correct, however I also think this issue would depend on the nature of the traffic violations. Certainly stolen motors doesn't matter where the location was, but what would matter is the probable cause to inspect when they found out the motors where stolen. Now it's pretty common for the average person to waive their 4th amendment rights, but what was the grounds for probable cause? If the vehicles weren't in operation, how could the LEO's demand the licenses to verify that individuals didn't have them?

Second, and as I predicted earlier, someone called me out for defending my fellow LEO. As I predicted, that individual neglected to read the statement where I said that I was not defending them. In fact, I openly stated that I didn't care about engine mods, ect.Whether the intent was there or not, the fact that what you stated, however impartial you stated it, defended the actions of the LEO's. Ergo, regardless of your intent your statement was in defense of the LEO's. However erroneous the statements came to be.

ONCE AGAIN, I will state it more clearly. I don't care if you mod your car, as long as it is safe to drive. Put a huge exhaust on it, put a wing on the back, spend 10k on your car for that extra 1.5 horses. I don't care. Just don't drive like an idiot on the road. I AM NOT DEFENDING THIS OPERATION...GET IT?I think from reading your posts here, that its pretty safe to say that you are not one of the LEO's that would be the subject of ire.

Finally, I am not in either of the camps described above. Those who believe that all cops are bad are complete morons. Those who blindly defend all cops are equally moronic. Very simply, cops are people. Some good, some bad. The bad we do gets much more press than the plumber who gets arrested for drugs, or the doctor who gets a DUI.
+1. I agree 100%

762cavalier
04-03-2008, 6:43 PM
eta34- Thanks for your post. While I have met many police officers who deserved the title JBT I have met equally as many who were stand up guys doing a thankless job. I take cops on a person by person basis and some of the outright LEO bashers even piss me off.Your posts are always insightful and usually pretty non-partisan. Thanks for participating

ON topic- this to me just seems like a big trap where a lot of law-abiding citizens had their rights trampled so they could catch a few criminals (the ones with stolen engines and such) and generate a LOT of revenue for the state.
Yes I said the state- As all those guys that had MAYBE illegal modifications (remember the part could be legal but if they forgot to put the CARB sticker under the hood they will be cited) have to get their car inspected at a STATE RUN referee smog center to have their violation cleared. While I can't stand street racers going after people who modify their cars with fines and confiscation is just bad government

outersquare
04-03-2008, 6:44 PM
they should get together and file a lawsuit against the cities/state.

WokMaster1
04-03-2008, 6:51 PM
How about "it's none of your ******* business what I want on my car or why."

Why are you a cop? Are you compensating for the trash can issues in your youth? No? Then why would you want a job like that?

I hate cops like that.

do they have rice rockets in Wyoming?:p


Seriously, when I first read the Op, I was thinking "Did Iggy move again?"

ljg17
04-03-2008, 6:54 PM
Not really. This event was probably a "cruise," basically a weekly gathering of motorheads (where no one cruises, they just all park their cars with the hood open and stand around and talk about cars). .

Because they are getting harassed constantly by law enforcement when they are actually driving so previously being parked on private property offered a little more protection, now that illusion has been shattered.

In my town (Fresno) the PD has just started charging the towing companies $50.00 to tow an impound. The coincidentally they raised the ammount that the towing companies could charge a victim by your guessed it $50.00. So let's imaging that you are a tow truck operator and the PD calls you to an illegally parked car or impound, they then charge you 50.00 to tow that car away. What possible reason is there for the PD charging the tow truck driver??

Shotgun Man
04-03-2008, 6:59 PM
Because they are getting harassed constantly by law enforcement when they are actually driving so previously being parked on private property offered a little more protection, now that illusion has been shattered.

In my town (Fresno) the PD has just started charging the towing companies $50.00 to tow an impound. The coincidentally they raised the ammount that the towing companies could charge a victim by your guessed it $50.00. So let's imaging that you are a tow truck operator and the PD calls you to an illegally parked car or impound, they then charge you 50.00 to tow that car away. What possible reason is there for the PD charging the tow truck driver??

Yeah, that's crazy. How'd find out they're doing that? It's almost corrupt.

M. Sage
04-03-2008, 7:12 PM
I'll chime in from the LEO perspective. First, to the idiot with the "pig" comment. At least find something original. Perhaps a nice doughnut reference or something like that.

Second, lets get the facts straight here. Engine inspections may be done by the CHP or other specially trained officers without consent and without warrant. I will look for the penal code or applicable case law. In addition, their training and experience allows them to develop the probable cause that a normal beat cop (such as me) would not have.

Second, I believe this event took place in a public parking lot.

Finally, many of you will gloss over the following statements and say that I am blindly defending LEO based on my above paragraphs. I simply explained what is LEGAL, not my personal feelings. My personal feelings: Who cares about illegal modifications? I certainly don't, as long as they do not affect safety. I have ZERO problems with cracking down on illegal street racing...those guys are dangerous and cause collisions.

I have as much an issue with the law allowing an officer to order me to pop the hood on my car as I do the one allowing an officer to order me to open my gun case for a "safety check."

I'd be surprised if those "specially-trained" officers can spot "illegal modifications." Most smog techs I've seen can't do it, some smog techs mis-identify legal mods, how is a cop going to do better? Oh, the really obvious stuff, for sure, but that really obvious stuff (intake tubes, etc.) doesn't actually effect emissions or add a whole lot of power (most of those "intake" kits actually lose power). Cams, higher compression ratio and re-tuned computers do. Good luck to Officer Friendly on spotting that stuff.

CARB's EO system is no better than the handgun roster. The entire purpose of the EO system is to extort money...

I agree with you. Street racers suck. Jail 'em, but don't go after a freaking car show, or some normal guy who's into his car.

BTW, the way to avoiding loud exhaust tickets? Don't put a big tailpipe on your car. 2 1/4" mild tubing on my car, but it used to set off car alarms... at idle. Those big chrome ends that everybody seems to love are what get attention, not the actual noise.

ETA: Just saw the post that CHP can't order me to pop my hood. That's a good thing, cause they couldn't anyway. :p

Kestryll
04-03-2008, 7:17 PM
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/21297sheep.jpg

I was NOT joking about the little shots, insults and rude comments.

See you next week.

Kestryll
04-03-2008, 7:31 PM
... and thus LEO questioning isn't as taboo as it is here.

Are you equating the requirement to be civil, both in general and specifically towards fellow board members to a topic being 'taboo'?

What is 'taboo' is the insults, from the outright ones to the clever little jibes and subtle comments.

[General rant not associated with Hopi's post]

Also the mass generalizations are very irritating and foolish.

If those same kinds of generalizations were made about gun owners most here would be shrieking like banshees about the injustice and how dare you summarily lump us all in to one negative stereotype.

If half of the same rude comments and insults made to LEOs as a group were made verbatim about another group, say Blacks or Asians, those same people making the comments here would be crying "RACISM!!" and demanding that someone be banned.

But stereotypes, generalizations and condemning all for the actions of few are all okay, as long as it is someone else, right?

StraightShooter
04-03-2008, 7:52 PM
I'd like to publicly apologize to eta34 for a few of my posts that were out of line. I hope you continue to post on Calguns.

Pm sent as well.

eta34
04-03-2008, 8:32 PM
I have as much an issue with the law allowing an officer to order me to pop the hood on my car as I do the one allowing an officer to order me to open my gun case for a "safety check."

I'd be surprised if those "specially-trained" officers can spot "illegal modifications." Most smog techs I've seen can't do it, some smog techs mis-identify legal mods, how is a cop going to do better? Oh, the really obvious stuff, for sure, but that really obvious stuff (intake tubes, etc.) doesn't actually effect emissions or add a whole lot of power (most of those "intake" kits actually lose power). Cams, higher compression ratio and re-tuned computers do. Good luck to Officer Friendly on spotting that stuff.

CARB's EO system is no better than the handgun roster. The entire purpose of the EO system is to extort money...

I agree with you. Street racers suck. Jail 'em, but don't go after a freaking car show, or some normal guy who's into his car.

BTW, the way to avoiding loud exhaust tickets? Don't put a big tailpipe on your car. 2 1/4" mild tubing on my car, but it used to set off car alarms... at idle. Those big chrome ends that everybody seems to love are what get attention, not the actual noise.

ETA: Just saw the post that CHP can't order me to pop my hood. That's a good thing, cause they couldn't anyway. :p

I can tell you this. We have special training classes addressing the illegal mods. I haven't been to one, so I can't speak for the training. I will try to get with one of my guys and see what they look for. I wouldn't have the slightest idea. After all, I can barely change the blinker fluid on my car :)

USN CHIEF
04-03-2008, 8:41 PM
I can tell you this. We have special training classes addressing the illegal mods. I haven't been to one, so I can't speak for the training. I will try to get with one of my guys and see what they look for. I wouldn't have the slightest idea. After all, I can barely change the blinker fluid on my car :)

Earlier you said you was not going to post no more in this thread:confused: J/K:D




Read the whole thing ETA, and I have to give to you for coming back and correcting the info that you initially put out.. Good job my friend:)

eta34
04-03-2008, 8:43 PM
Ok, this will be my last post........:)

virulosity
04-03-2008, 8:47 PM
Is it just me, or if this is the top issue for police to deal with then they need a cut in pay. What a waste of time.

mike100
04-03-2008, 8:59 PM
My departure from the racing scene happened right about the time the Fast and the Furious movie made the culture mainstream. I could go on and on and I got cut a lot of breaks back in the day.

The 'nazi' and racial accusations are NOT acceptable and will not be tolerated.

All the racing properties have been developed- There isn't a lot going in Socal anymore.

The other point would be the sheer number of cars on the road today. it's a little different than in 1989 when you could actually find a deserted road.

California has really come down on many activities I have had an interest in: Guns, Cars, Off Roading and outdoor stuff. I'm pretty sure they are working on a way to make boating in the Pacific illegal. Then I don't know what I'll do.

dreyna14
04-03-2008, 8:59 PM
This incident is a bunch of crap. The biggest problem with it is that they can give you a ticket for ANYTHING on your car. Then you have to pay admin fees even if the part meets regulations! I go to car meets almost every week. We aren't apart of the F@g and the Curious bunch (just a bunch of Subaru guys) and we hate street racers but we all have tons of mods. We also participate in SCCA events, rallys, track days, and other stuff that doesn't endanger the public. Sure I hate street racers, but if you want to bust street racers, do when they're actually racing. Then turn their cars into a 3'x3' cube.

Why do I have an extra 80 hp on my car over stock? For the events mentioned above, but it's also MY car, MY property, and the modifications don't endanger anyone, the drivers might, but my $2000 coilovers don't hurt anyone. Sure I love the extra pull getting on the freeway but I cruise at the same speed as everybody else. You don't have to be a street racer to want car mods. That cops just insulted everyone who works on cars. People who have a big block in their Chevelle, a bigger turbo in their Diesel truck, people who compete in their daily drivers, and everyone who DOESN'T drive a s***ty Toyota Camry. I get revved a lot by ricers but I ignore them or tell them to meet me on a track to see who can beat who. These cops are idiots plain and simple. They love to harass people out having a good time with their cars. You can't call people "street racers" unless you actually caught them racing on public roadways. Maybe the cops were just pissed because they have to ride in those crappy Crown Vics or their wives make them drive minivans or suv's that can't accelerate, turn, or stop any better than a shopping cart.

pnkssbtz
04-03-2008, 9:02 PM
I can tell you this. We have special training classes addressing the illegal mods. I haven't been to one, so I can't speak for the training. I will try to get with one of my guys and see what they look for. I wouldn't have the slightest idea. After all, I can barely change the blinker fluid on my car :)
I'd be REALLY interested to know the level of details these classes get into.

However, I must point to the effectiveness of the special "training" and "memos" in regards to firearm legality, and other private rights (re: receipt checking at non-membership stores). And while the latter certainly has no bearing on the accuracy of the former, it does display a sort of predisposition or trend...

762cavalier
04-03-2008, 9:56 PM
Msage really nailed it down. Smog techs get a whole lot of training in the field of engine mods and we sometimes don't know what we're looking at. That requires time and experience that a LEO just can't give up when someone who does nothing but smog for YEARS has trouble figuring out. I have even had to sort out a (wrongful) smog failure for a customer because the first guy didn't know what he was even looking at.

As an aside. The BAR Q&A guy that inspects our shop is actually pretty friendly and easy to deal with because all our documentation is always spot-on and legal. He also does some of the training for the LEO's and even he is amazed they have Officers trying to do this stuff. One of the officers he trained even cited someone for illegal headers on a 2000 toyota corolla (yep you guessed it Mike) the headers weren't headers they were the factory tubular INTAKE manifold :rolleyes::D

nobody_special
04-03-2008, 10:48 PM
And go ahead, try to claim that not one innocent person has ever been killed by the irresponsible behavior of someone behind the wheel of a modified vehicle on public roadways. Not saying the name calling is appropriate, but clearly there is a risk to the public by some of these people and their behavior.

That's the same "logic" :rolleyes: the gun-banners use.

razorx
04-03-2008, 11:44 PM
My departure from the racing scene happened right about the time the Fast and the Furious movie made the culture mainstream. I could go on and on and I got cut a lot of breaks back in the day.

The 'nazi' and racial accusations are NOT acceptable and will not be tolerated.



I think it is more about police captains/chiefs have similar behavior as politicians in that they glom on to the latest news of interest and milk it for their career. There is also the attraction of doing non-dangerous work as well and group bonding with the social scene in participating in a "bust" like this.

Having kept up with the import tuner scene (used to have S2000), I feel ticked that they would waste time on administrative action items (which this is) instead of focusing on the meat and potatoes of their job. Meat and potatoes is boring, don't get the newsflashes as much, but that is what really makes a difference in the community. Not this window dressing where people are assumed to be a "criminal" because they have a "black" car.

Oh well, if someone wants to race, they should take it to the track and compare timeslips. Of course, when this happens reality meets the bs so it is not too popular.

retired
04-04-2008, 1:04 AM
bet all those cops working overtime at this bust are spending their ill gotten gains on coke and kiddie porn.

This remark is asinine and insulting at the same time. Your inflammatory remark adds nothing to this thread and destroys any credibility you might have had.

As far as a parking lot being public or private: Yes, the lot is private in the sense it is owned by a corporation or person. Notwithstanding this, it is open to the public since it the public is permitted to come onto the grounds; ostensibly to shop, eat, meet with their friends.

Parking lots, if posted by signs at every entry/exit point, are subject to all of the same vehicle code laws that one is subject to on the street. Despite this, certain vehicle code laws can be enforced in lots not having those signs.

An example would be a lot having disabled parking spaces with properly posted signs and wheelchair emblems painted on the ground (both required).

Good luck trying to have a ticket for a disabled parking violation being thrown out on a "private property" argument. Same thing with the "no parking, fire lane" red curb violations. I would be surprised it has ever occurred. I have no knowledge if anyone has ever tried that argument, but I know they never did on mine and I wrote as many disabled tickets as I could, even when I worked a criminal, not traffic car. I intensely dislike it when someone parks in a disabled spot and doesn't have the license or placard.

I agree with eta insofar as people modifying their engines; I really didn't care. As a matter of fact, I was sometimes jealous of what people had done to their vehicles, since my money just went to keep mine running. :(

Now, if they were racing, that was a different story. To many innocent people have been injured or killed by street racers (and I'm not talking about those who come to watch the races as I really don't care about them unless they are children who were brought there by their parents and really didn't have a choice).

I also agree with eta's statement about some leos being bad; as I've mentioned before. The rampant anti-leo attacks gets old tho.

battleship
04-04-2008, 2:19 AM
I think most of as are pissed off, legal or illegal, really lets just ban christmas while we are at it. This is all about getting paid, nothing else, mean while why this was happening people were getting robbed and raped accross the city but no task force for those such crimes. I think the police and city hall should be ashamed of them selves for cooking up this one.

When i see guys and girls in these cars i think to my self well there not on a street corner selling drugs or pimping, there enjoying something that is a hobbie a life style that doesnot intrude on overs, whats wrong with getting together and comparing or bragging about whos got the latest and the best.

No harm there, im just sickened by reading this when there is so much violence going on around that is not getting dealt with.

As for the question why do you need this much power, truth is we dont, its just nice to no you have it, or we might as well make all cars top out at 65mph, im sure the cops would hate that as well, most the men and women are creative and take real pride in there cars which shows responsiblity and respect, they should not have to endure this waffen SS style operation to destroy there private interests, be it tricked out cars or bikes, im begining to loose respect for the police in many ways, because they do not seem to channel there prioritys in the best way that will serve the public.

socalguns
04-04-2008, 3:54 AM
You wanna see anti-LEO? Check out what the rich car enthusiasts (the ones that aren't being busted) have to say- http://mbworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=237852

Someone should invite that guy to a raid , i mean gathering :D

saki302
04-04-2008, 4:57 AM
Parking lots, if posted by signs at every entry/exit point, are subject to all of the same vehicle code laws that one is subject to on the street. Despite this, certain vehicle code laws can be enforced in lots not having those signs.



If the parking lot has restricted access (i.e. not open to the public or gated), vehicle codes do not apply.
I've seen many an autocross event held at a shut- off parking area :)

-Dave

Mitch
04-04-2008, 7:29 AM
Pre-1975 cars are exempt from all CARB and SMOG laws. :) You do the math on why, and grandfathered isn't the answer. -Hint- (http://www.arb.ca.gov/html/brochure/history.htm)

Uh, yeah, I actively worked on getting the law passed (in 1997 or so) that exempts older cars from emissions inspections. As far as I am aware, they are still not exempt from general emissions requirements (offramp tailpipe checks, for example). Nonetheless, it's pretty shocking that CARB compliance can be checked for at any time besides during actual emissions inspections. Though with the new information on the bust posted here, that might not have been the case here at all.

To sum, performance parts are not illegal because they make the car go faster.

If you had them parked in that parking lot, I guarantee an officer could still get you for exhaust noise,

How can he do that if the motor isn't running?

and hey... does that hard-to-read Chevy Blue powdercoated VIN on your crate engines match the chassis? No? Impounded for inspection, altered engine or transmission identification information.

At almost any cruise, at least half the cars have swapped motors. The original engines in both of my cars are long gone, as are the transmissions. And if the engine is roughly similar in model to the original, there's no way a casual inspector can tell it was a swap without a reference chart (even with a book all he can tell is whether that particular engine model was ever installed in that particular model year; VINs aren't matched to engines and haven't been since the 50s). With Chevy V8s, if the top of the block has ever been machined for any reason, the engine code went with it.

Hoop
04-04-2008, 8:08 AM
i can't believe anyone in here sides with these officers.

I agree.

My Z28 got a fix-it ticket from one of those morons for loud exhaust; it was stock.

1919_4_ME
04-04-2008, 8:33 AM
Back in the day when I use to streetrace (in ontario) they use to have snitches in-bedded with all the street racers.They would then find out where all the good drag spots were out and then would setup a bust.I would always get a ticket for being lowered,tinted windows etc.Back then they would try to confiscate your car for having Nitrous or drag slicks.
Glad I'm done with that scene it was good back in the early 90's....:chris:

motorhead
04-04-2008, 8:58 AM
i find this disturbing. some of us live in both worlds, guns and cars/trucks/bikes(hence my handle). i'm not part of the sport compact crowd but i have a hage amount of admiration for someone who can coax 400+ hp from a 4 cyl. honda. (i do think the exhaust sounds gay). suppose local le dropped by a build party to make sure we were building within the law? i do wonder how many of the victims here gave consent to search? le will usually try to intimidate by inferring that denial of consent=something to hide. myself, i NEVER aloow a cop to search for anything. some are very surprised when they get no to the question. they are quite used to sheeple telling them it's perfectly fine to search their vehicles, persons etc.. some get real pissy about it, especially the younger, less experienced cops.
to those defending their brother thugs here (with disclaimers that they are against such abuses), i ask, what would you do if ordered by your dept. to such an assignment tonight? i think we know the answer.

eta34
04-04-2008, 9:14 AM
i find this disturbing. some of us live in both worlds, guns and cars/trucks/bikes(hence my handle). i'm not part of the sport compact crowd but i have a hage amount of admiration for someone who can coax 400+ hp from a 4 cyl. honda. (i do think the exhaust sounds gay). suppose local le dropped by a build party to make sure we were building within the law? i do wonder how many of the victims here gave consent to search? le will usually try to intimidate by inferring that denial of consent=something to hide. myself, i NEVER aloow a cop to search for anything. some are very surprised when they get no to the question. they are quite used to sheeple telling them it's perfectly fine to search their vehicles, persons etc.. some get real pissy about it, especially the younger, less experienced cops.
to those defending their brother thugs here (with disclaimers that they are against such abuses), i ask, what would you do if ordered by your dept. to such an assignment tonight? i think we know the answer.


Since you obviously know the answer, please enlighten the rest of us. Don't pretend to speak for me, or know what I will/will not do. I will not knowingly violate the law or conduct an illegal search. But clearly, YOU know what I will do, right?

Kestryll
04-04-2008, 9:31 AM
to those defending their brother thugs here

Obviously you did not read enough of this post, see ya in a while!

Kestryll
04-04-2008, 9:36 AM
I bet all those cops working overtime at this bust are spending their ill gotten gains on coke and kiddie porn. We better get a grant to investigate the connection between police overtime and illicit drugs and child abuse.

One warning.
You got this in before I posted my general warning, that is the only reason you are not getting banned for a period of time.

I do not want to see comments like that again.

AJAX22
04-04-2008, 9:41 AM
I feel that they should criminalize actions instead of posession of inanimate objects.

Everyone knows where the races actually take place. But because of the nature of the activity its a simple matter for the racers to scatter and run away from the police.

IIRC they are not even allowed to pursue the guys who meet up on stunt anymore because of some willy-e-coyote esque incidents of crown Victoria brakes overheating while trying to keep up with modded cars in the canyons. (this is second hand info, could be wrong)

There is better things they could have been doing than rousting guys for tinkering on their cars.

It used to be an acceptable American past time... we were a nation of tinkerers... now we can't even work on our own cars without permission.

I don't fault the officers, but I do find fault with whoever it was that decided this was a good idea.

** edit **

Had these guys got popped for engaging in dangerous behavior which endangered the lives of the public I wouldn't have any sympathy for them. but hanging out is not a criminal act, and tinkering on your car Should NOT be criminal.

just my 2 cents.

Kestryll
04-04-2008, 9:48 AM
SO, one more time for those who seemed to have missed it.

Knock off the name calling, insults and vulgar generalizations.

We have as a group of members, LEOs who are on OUR side, just as we have hispanics, gays, blacks and asians.
Why in the hell do you want to alienate them and drive them away?
What good does that do for our cause?
Do you want to validate the common media myth that gun owners are a bunch of over reactive rednecks?
Great job! Way to shot the knees out from under your fellow gun owners.
Help like that we can do without.


Much like the insults and generalizations about other groups are not tolerated neither will these be.

Blacks are NOT all 'lazy'.
Hispanics are NOT all gangbangers.
Jews are NOT all greedy misers.
Whites are NOT all clansmen.
And LEOs are NOT all evil oppressors looking to victimize people for fun.

zenthemighty
04-04-2008, 10:07 AM
There are guidelines as to what is legal and what is illegal.

Illegal modifications to cars are .... ILLEGAL.

Illegal modifications to firearms are... ILLEGAL.

We, here, keeps thing LEGAL.... we DO NOT *ILLEGALLY* modify firearms.... if someone ILLEGALLY modify a LEGAL CA AR into an ILLEGAL AW, we have no sympathy for that....

So.... I don't know if we should endorse illegal automobile modifications here....

They need a NRA-clone for cars.... and fight the laws and to make their "modifications" legal.... NOT to ignore the law and make illegal modifications and then cry about it.

You sooooooooo don't get it. Bad laws are bad laws. Assault weapons were LEGAL until they were made illegal. Throwing a Turbo on my car was LEGAL until the made it ILLEGAL.

Why the hell should I not be allowed to throw a turbo on any of my vehicles should I so desire? I'm not a racer, a tuner, or anything of the sort. But I'll happily side with those people if it will help unravel of the web of social control that's been spun in our wonderful state government.

Kestryll
04-04-2008, 10:18 AM
You sooooooooo don't get it. Bad laws are bad laws. Assault weapons were LEGAL until they were made illegal. Throwing a Turbo on my car was LEGAL until the made it ILLEGAL.

Why the hell should I not be allowed to throw a turbo on any of my vehicles should I so desire? I'm not a racer, a tuner, or anything of the sort. But I'll happily side with those people if it will help unravel of the web of social control that's been spun in our wonderful state government.


And you're not getting it either.

We KNOW that most of the gun laws are bad laws.
Should we ignore them because of it?

We follow them because they ARE the law, for now.

Instead of saying "They're bad laws, let's ignore them" we work to overturn, reverse or just flat remove bad laws.

You want to throw a turbo on your car? Great! Get the law against it revoked!

I want a pistol grip on my detachable build, should I just put it on and call it a bad law?
No, I'm working to get rid of that dumb law not breaking it because It's bad.


Who is at fault for the OLL arrests, misinformation and lack of education about them?
Cops?
DAs?

Whose job is it to make sure these people KNOW what is legal and what is not?
Whose responsibility is it to train and educate these people?
Who do WE condemn for willfully not doing that job here?

DOJ BOF.

So why are the officers enforcing this silly car law any more at fault for the dumb laws put in place by the politicians WE elect?

Fools waste time and energy assigning blame incorrectly and railing against those who can not change the laws they have to enforce.
The wise man doesn't look for who to blame, he looks up the line and works to make the changes further up where it can make a difference.

532Fastback
04-04-2008, 10:32 AM
Maybe it's time to rethink gas taxes if they have a surplus to spend on overtime....

time to get rid of gas taxes.

cnyankee
04-04-2008, 10:40 AM
this post was a long read. though i dont agree with what they did they are just workers following orders. and this seemed like a big enough operation that it came down from several levels of bosses. almost everyone that works for a boss have to do things they dont agree with at times.

ldivinag
04-04-2008, 11:07 AM
i'll chime on here since i happen to own of those "targeted" vehicles...


first and foremost, i believe the LE goes after these crowds is due to all of the public views of illegal STREET racings and sideshows, etc.

now, another problem i see is that who owns these cars.

most males in the 18-24 y/o bracket who i guess never learned the BILL OF RIGHTS while in school.

dont get me wrong. there are good busts and bad busts. in this case, i cant wait to get in a similar situation with my vehicle.

why? just because my vehicle came like that FROM the factory. so the huge wing and the gigantic hoodscoop MIGHT be a dead giveaway as a "street racer" look.

but then again, when was the last time "looking like" something was a crime?

if that's the case, then i have a GREAT civil rights lawsuit.

in fremont, where i live, there is an (in)famous cop who's sole duty is patrolling certain areas and looking out for cars with "illegal" modifications. in fact, he's like the area's expert on these things.

thing that piss me off:

"If you're not into street racing, why would you need that?" Riverside Police Traffic Sergeant Skip Showalter asked an enthusiast during a similar crackdown last year. "Why would you want more power going to your car?"

first thing i'll do? subpoena each and every officer's personal vehicle in that bust and see if all they own are yugos...


Officers then began a warrantless search and interrogation operation of the 150 vehicles that were present.

see my quote above about the majority drivers are 18-24 y/o and never knowing what the 4th and 5th amendments are all about...

sad, but too often, is the case that most are busted...

for the record? my ricer car is 99.999% stock. ;) i just like the boy racer look.

Mitch
04-04-2008, 11:17 AM
but then again, when was the last time "looking like" something was a crime?

Since you ask, SB23.

zatoh
04-04-2008, 11:17 AM
All the participants had to do was to leave their cars and either fade away in to a local store to shop/eat when the cops where on scene or close up shop and clam up. When asked is this your car? Just say "I'm just checking out the cars" or the equivalent of "there is no contraband in this car" or as my friend used to say "bone stock officer":D. Don't be disrespectful. If your car is closed/locked up and all they see is the minor illegal stuff on the outside (no intercooler, NOS bottle or low exhaust visible) then take the hit and pay the man. Consider yourself lucky.

I've seen this same stuff happen (way) back in the day at Stadium way at Dodger stadium. It was quite a rush (and funny to see the mad scramble) to be out of that place when the po-lice were on scene.

RobG
04-04-2008, 11:38 AM
Police issued a total of forty-eight tickets for "engine modifications" with police accusing the owners of the parked vehicles of being street racers. Another fifty tickets were issued for paperwork violations, dark window tinting and lack of a front license plate. The most revenue, however, will be generated from the fees imposed on twenty vehicles that were confiscated.

Oh, the horror of it all. The only thing that irks me is when they leave their trash all over the place. Wonder if they will hit all the 50's style diners next when they have their "hot rod" nights? Sounds like nothing but a way to generate income for ailing PD's.

zenthemighty
04-04-2008, 11:42 AM
And you're not getting it either.

We KNOW that most of the gun laws are bad laws.
Should we ignore them because of it?

We follow them because they ARE the law, for now.

Instead of saying "They're bad laws, let's ignore them" we work to overturn, reverse or just flat remove bad laws.

You want to throw a turbo on your car? Great! Get the law against it revoked!

I want a pistol grip on my detachable build, should I just put it on and call it a bad law?
No, I'm working to get rid of that dumb law not breaking it because It's bad.


Who is at fault for the OLL arrests, misinformation and lack of education about them?
Cops?
DAs?

Whose job is it to make sure these people KNOW what is legal and what is not?
Whose responsibility is it to train and educate these people?
Who do WE condemn for willfully not doing that job here?

DOJ BOF.

So why are the officers enforcing this silly car law any more at fault for the dumb laws put in place by the politicians WE elect?

Fools waste time and energy assigning blame incorrectly and railing against those who can not change the laws they have to enforce.
The wise man doesn't look for who to blame, he looks up the line and works to make the changes further up where it can make a difference.

Kestryll,

I never advocated breaking the law. All I said is that their issues aren't all that different from ours.

With that said, the price of Social Disobedience against the laws they hate is a lot cheaper than ours...

buff_01
04-04-2008, 11:42 AM
And people still wonder why a lot of the public hates cops?

532Fastback
04-04-2008, 11:53 AM
OK so i posted this in my california car forum and so far several people have said that this happened because these ricers were doing burnouts in the parking lot and messing around and it was an ongoing problem.

GuyW
04-04-2008, 12:10 PM
I think we all recognized he quoted from a tiny newspaper that said right in its logo it was for car enthusiasts, and therefore would be biased even more than usual...

So bias = mistating the facts?

I'd bet the enthusiast paper had the facts more correct than the lame street media or official governmental news release.

There's d@#$ few media outlets that don't have a "worldview" that effects their coverage...

StraightShooter
04-04-2008, 12:32 PM
Someone should invite that guy to a raid , i mean gathering :D

Actually someone needs to get this guy to become a calguns member. He could do wonders for the calguns foundation.

pnkssbtz
04-04-2008, 1:14 PM
Since you ask, SB23.

Bahahhahahaahhaah... Sorry, ldivinag I agree 100% with your post, but you have to admit that Mitch's response was funny! (In a sad sad way :()

Two Shots
04-04-2008, 1:59 PM
[QUOTE=zenthemighty;1113429]Kestryll,

I never advocated breaking the law. All I said is that their issues aren't all that different from ours.

"Almost every vehicle that was there, even if they weren't street racing, they were ... an audience," Frasher said, adding that the lot was full of skid marks left behind by racers.

So remember the next time at the range and someone is shooting a EBR and it is not Cal approved you are just as guilty. Your the audience.
Illegal is illegal and street racing has a bad rap, But by the same token detaining people because they think your car is not legal and having them checked before you can leave. Well so much for freedom of expression. Wheres the ACLU on this?

nobody_special
04-04-2008, 2:20 PM
Instead of saying "They're bad laws, let's ignore them" we work to overturn, reverse or just flat remove bad laws.

And, the possibilities of Heller aside, how has that been working for you?

I want a pistol grip on my detachable build, should I just put it on and call it a bad law?
No, I'm working to get rid of that dumb law not breaking it because It's bad.


I completely agree, up to a point. But civil disobedience has its place as well. If we weren't all anxiously awaiting the Heller decision, I'd probably suggest that the situation in California is nearing the point where civil disobedience is merited, as I otherwise see little cause for hope.

Who is at fault for the OLL arrests, misinformation and lack of education about them? Cops? DAs?

Whose job is it to make sure these people KNOW what is legal and what is not?
Whose responsibility is it to train and educate these people?
Who do WE condemn for willfully not doing that job here?

DOJ BOF.

Certainly the DoJ is at fault; however, I do not agree that this absolves police and DAs of their responsibility to know the law. That's especially true for fundamental rights, such as the unlawful search and seizures reported in the OP.

The wise man doesn't look for who to blame, he looks up the line and works to make the changes further up where it can make a difference.

True, but there is also wisdom in recognizing if you can actually make a difference, or if you're simply defending a lost cause. I haven't seen much to indicate improvement in the CA firearms regulations.

P.S. While I am new here, and not yet a CA resident (moving later this year), I lived in CA from 1993 to 2005, so I'm not completely ignorant or uninvolved.

Shotgun Man
04-04-2008, 2:24 PM
I completely agree, up to a point. But civil disobedience has its place as well. If we weren't all anxiously awaiting the Heller decision, I'd probably suggest that the situation in California is nearing the point where civil disobedience is merited, as I otherwise see little cause for hope.


Are you kidding? Civil Disobediance in California with respect to gun laws?

You will be a convicted felon and barred from owning firearms for the rest of your life, not to mention being incarcerated.

nobody_special
04-04-2008, 2:36 PM
Are you kidding? Civil Disobediance in California with respect to gun laws?

You will be a convicted felon and barred from owning firearms for the rest of your life, not to mention being incarcerated.

*sigh* I figured I'd get this response.

First, I am not advocating civil disobedience here. I think there is some hope for the future due to Heller.

Second, civil disobedience does not necessarily entail the commission of felonies. In fact, if I were to suggest civil disobedience (which I'm not), I'd definitely not suggest any acts with such serious potential consequences.

I do recall seeing a thread from last August discussing the idea of a (legal) open-carry protest. Something like that would certainly be preferred to open civil disobedience.

Hopi
04-04-2008, 2:47 PM
*sigh* I figured I'd get this response.

First, I am not advocating civil disobedience here. I think there is some hope for the future due to Heller.

Second, civil disobedience does not necessarily entail the commission of felonies. In fact, if I were to suggest civil disobedience (which I'm not), I'd definitely not suggest any acts with such serious potential consequences.

I do recall seeing a thread from last August discussing the idea of a (legal) open-carry protest. Something like that would certainly be preferred to open civil disobedience.

Beating them at their own game, on their terms, has been a very rewarding experience. Perhaps the CA version of civil disobedience involves dissecting and conquering BS lawmaking/enforcement?

Further, we are moving towards an environment that will allow us to play on our terms. Imagine that. :D

Hopi
04-04-2008, 2:55 PM
Why don't you go catch some criminals, instead of stealing money from working, law abiding citizens in the name of revenue.



You're missing the point. Some of these people, after an arguably illegal/unjust detention/search, were found to be out of compliance with State law. It is the laws that allow these tactics and outcomes.

If a lawmaker/lobbyist wants to outlaw yogurt because of a competing interest and/or to generate revenue , and he/she can convince ($$) enough people to abide, then all of a sudden you've got a new criminal class of people who like to enjoy eating yogurt. Cops will then be tasked to arrest and jail these folks. Are the cops responsible for making these laws? No.

The laws need to reflect common sense.

snobordr
04-04-2008, 3:08 PM
That's the same "logic" :rolleyes: the gun-banners use.

But I, unlike the banners, realize that there is a difference between someone using a firearm in a safe and legal manner and someone using a firearm recklessly or with the intent to harm/kill another person. If you, with your firearm, pose a risk to the greater public at large, then damn right action should be taken. If you use a firearm in a legal manner, such as at the range, hunting, or other legal activities, then there really is no problem. Kind of like if you use your modified vehicle at sanctioned events there is no problem.

Get stupid with it on public roadways, then yes, face the potential consequences. Get stupid and make illegal modifications to your vehicle, prepare to face the consequences if caught.

If I modify my motorcycle exhaust for performance or safety improvements, it is illegal and I know full well that if I am caught, there will be consequences.

And please, let's not even try to make the arguement that these people were parked. How the hell you think they got the vehicle there, pixie dust?

I seriously doubt that suspension mods are the type of thing that drew a citation in this instance. Modified intake/exhaust? Sure, but then, this is clearly a violation of state law.

artherd
04-04-2008, 3:09 PM
This is why I get SFPD, GGB PD and CHP involved in our events.

http://photos-g.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v181/219/13/1071020034/n1071020034_30048942_6970.jpg
SFPD, GGB PD and CHP Police were good enough to shut down all 3 northbound approaches for this run.

I thank them for their consideration and enthusiasm.

However I can promise a similar reaction to warrant-less hostile activity as the guy from mbworld; squared. I don't want to air too much laundry, but there are 2 local parking enforcement officers who went overboard. They are now looking for mall security jobs.

artherd
04-04-2008, 3:18 PM
Another pic, I shot this from the air to commemorate the event. Note CHP helping. Word is there was quite a ruckus to get 'selected' to be part of this day at CHP, similar to the CHP 'guards' at the OLL hearings. Many in LE share our passions, it is important to remember that, and even more important to align against the bad apples.

http://photos-h.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v181/219/13/1071020034/n1071020034_30048911_5774.jpg

ivanimal
04-04-2008, 3:20 PM
That is an ugly car artherd you should give it to me.:D

Hopi
04-04-2008, 3:20 PM
Get stupid with it on public roadways, then yes, face the potential consequences. Get stupid and make illegal modifications to your vehicle, prepare to face the consequences if caught.


Wow.
That is why most rational people will champion the virtue of personal responsibility. You have pointed to two distinctly different scenarios.
1.
Get stupid with it on public roadways, then yes, face the potential consequences.
That would be reasonable, because you were actually endangering other citizens.

2.
Get stupid and make illegal modifications to your vehicle, prepare to face the consequences if caught.
That is not reasonable. The modifications do not kill people. As noted above by you, the act of using them irresponsibly might endanger and ultimately kill folks. The irresponsible action should be punished.

Yours is the exact same argument gun-grabbers use.

jumbopanda
04-04-2008, 3:25 PM
What a load of crap. I'm so tired of hearing about cops with nothing better to do, going around and busting people for the most innocuous crimes while there are far worse things going on. Why go crack down on gang members and other violent criminals when you can do stupid crap like bust people for having weed, a car that goes too fast, or a gun that looks scary?

There are plenty of laws out there, but most probably aren't even worth devoting taxpayer-funded resources to enforce simply because they're just plain worthless. Exactly what good did this raid do? Well about as much good as raiding BWO's house did if you ask me.

nothing4u
04-04-2008, 3:28 PM
Why don't the police go arrest the lawmakers/lobbyist for passing bull**** laws for wasting their time? Maybe we should have a new government agency to do this and waste more tax payer money for bureaucracy :D. The fact is these laws are revenue generating laws, the police are not going to bite the hand that feeds them. I sure don't see any law enforcement associations voicing their opposition against these kinds of regulations. Their lack of voicing against The Man constitutes their sanctioning The Man.

Harrison_Bergeron
04-04-2008, 3:29 PM
Modified intake/exhaust? Sure, but then, this is clearly a violation of state law.

That's the problem, right there, many LEOs think just like you, problem is, if you pay twice as much for parts that the manufacturer payed the CARB to sign off on then you are 100% legit. California doesn't have a no modification is legal law, I believe some states do, but we are not one of them.

pnkssbtz
04-04-2008, 3:35 PM
That's the problem, right there, many LEOs think just like you, problem is, if you pay twice as much for parts that the manufacturer payed the CARB to sign off on then you are 100% legit. California doesn't have a no modification is legal law, I believe some states do, but we are not one of them.

Exactly. This is a TAX and nothing more. This is not about safety, this about paying $$ to CARB.


If it is involved with intake or emissions, it's got to be CARB approved.

Brakes / Suspension you can do whatever (I believe brakes have to be meat DOT criteria however).

510dat
04-04-2008, 3:38 PM
Further news:

http://www.pe.com/localnews/riverside/stories/PE_News_Local_R_streetrace01.4234d9b.html

[/quote]Police raid hits street racing

10:57 AM PDT on Tuesday, April 1, 2008

By JESSICA LOGAN
The Press-Enterprise

Riverside police may have put a dent in local street racing Friday when about 100 officers raided a parking lot on Valley Springs Parkway, where suspected racers are known to congregate.

Police from Riverside and other agencies shut off the exits to the lot to inspect more than 150 vehicles. Officers wrote a similar number of citations, including 48 for illegal modifications common to street racing, according to a police news release.

Twenty vehicles were towed from the scene as part of a crackdown funded by a $503,000 grant from the California Office of Traffic Safety, according to a police news release.

Police spokesman Steven Frasher said officers had been monitoring illegal activity in the lot for weeks. The large number of people who received tickets for illegal modifications common to street racing confirmed officers' suspicions that the lot was a hotbed of street racing activity, he said.

"Almost every vehicle that was there, even if they weren't street racing, they were ... an audience," Frasher said, adding that the lot was full of skid marks left behind by racers.

Neighboring business managers at Hooters Restaurant and John's Incredible Pizza are glad the problem was addressed. At times, they said, cars speed through their parking lots, threatening the safety of others and scaring away customers.

"They seek a big parking lot and ours is huge," said Jim Finigan, director of operations at John's Incredible Pizza.

He was seconded by Chris Guillet, manager of the Riverside Hooters Restaurant, who said problem drivers speed through his lot, barely avoiding collisions. While he was grateful for the police intervention, "I think it just moves the problem to another area," Guillet said.

Police organized a similar raid in 2006 at the Target store on Tyler Street. They believe street racing has killed at least two people in Riverside in recent years, including Reyna De Leon, 38, in 2006, and 14-year-old Carlos Cisneros in 2007.

"By its nature, (the street racing problem) can get up and go someplace else," Frasher said. He added, however, the problem may at least be solved at the Valley Springs Parkway location. "We were able to send a strong message that ... we are cracking down on this activity and we won't tolerate it," Frasher said.

He added that police will continue the fight against street racing, but he declined to give details.

On Friday, cars ranging from broken-down Hondas to shiny, new Ford Mustangs and BMWs lined up for the police inspection. Some car owners were ticketed for replacing a small exhaust pipe with a larger one that makes the car run louder.

John Ferrier got a "fix-it ticket," he said, because his car's exhaust system was too noisy. And yet the 21-year-old Moreno Valley resident said he was happy the police were cracking down on Honda drivers. He blames them for reckless maneuvers such as "burning out" and "doing doughnuts."

"That's what attracted the police attention," Ferrier said. "I'm glad they're here to stop people before they do something stupid."

Michael Calderon, 22, of San Bernardino, stood in the parking lot as his 1995 Honda Civic hatchback, which he bought for $600, was loaded onto a tow truck.

Police impounded his car because officers believed some of its parts were stolen.

Calderon said he bought the parts from a reputable business.

"It's devastating," said Calderon, who spent $20,000 on car improvements. "That's my soul right there. This is the worst night of my life."

And it wasn't over yet. He still needed someone to pick him up -- but first he had to find a friend whose car passed inspection. [/quote]

Harrison_Bergeron
04-04-2008, 3:40 PM
It happened before my time, does anyone know how the visual inspection and CARB was pitched to the masses? It is so blatantly corrupt, how is a non-approved header going to hurt anyone in any way? How is a non-approved header going to somehow fool the sniffer test?(I agree fully with the sniffer test) The only purpose of this setup is to line the pockets of the CARB, how did the people fall for it?

Harrison_Bergeron
04-04-2008, 3:44 PM
And the winner is...

The large number of people who received tickets for illegal modifications common to street racing confirmed officers' suspicions that the lot was a hotbed of street racing activity, he said.

Hopi
04-04-2008, 3:56 PM
And the winner is...

And the prize is a kick in the mouth.

Are car shows 'hotbeds for illegal racing'. Do dealer-installed performance enhancements on Mustangs fall under this same scrutiny?

.50DE
04-04-2008, 4:17 PM
There are guidelines as to what is legal and what is illegal.

Illegal modifications to cars are .... ILLEGAL.

Illegal modifications to firearms are... ILLEGAL.

We, here, keeps thing LEGAL.... we DO NOT *ILLEGALLY* modify firearms.... if someone ILLEGALLY modify a LEGAL CA AR into an ILLEGAL AW, we have no sympathy for that....

So.... I don't know if we should endorse illegal automobile modifications here....

They need a NRA-clone for cars.... and fight the laws and to make their "modifications" legal.... NOT to ignore the law and make illegal modifications and then cry about it.

actaully, most leos, are clueless as to whats legal and whats not for moding a car. YOu can have a intake with a CARB exception sticker on it and they will still write you up. dont laugh, seen it happen.

pnkssbtz
04-04-2008, 4:22 PM
actaully, most leos, are clueless as to whats legal and whats not for moding a car. YOu can have a intake with a CARB exception sticker on it and they will still write you up. dont laugh, seen it happen.

I almost got a ticket for a stock exhaust next to a car dealership of the same car I was driving. (Only reason I got out of the ticket because I POINTED to a car on the nearby lot and said SAME EXHAUST, ITS STOCK.)



This bears repeating:
Are car shows 'hotbeds for illegal racing'. Do dealer-installed performance enhancements on Mustangs fall under this same scrutiny?Double Standard.

GSequoia
04-04-2008, 4:34 PM
That is an ugly car artherd you should give it to me.:D


I think if you held off on watching the Internet gun sales forums and such you could afford one in about a weeks time ;)

.50DE
04-04-2008, 4:44 PM
And dont think it is just rice they go after, muscle cars are not emune. Its not about makeing the streets safe, you do that through education and give ppl a place to injoy a hobby safely. Its about makeing money and trying to justify programs for CARB

Hoop
04-04-2008, 5:05 PM
He was seconded by Chris Guillet, manager of the Riverside Hooters Restaurant, who said problem drivers speed through his lot, barely avoiding collisions.


Damn kids!

M. Sage
04-04-2008, 5:56 PM
I can tell you this. We have special training classes addressing the illegal mods. I haven't been to one, so I can't speak for the training. I will try to get with one of my guys and see what they look for. I wouldn't have the slightest idea. After all, I can barely change the blinker fluid on my car :)

So.. you're not quite to the point where you can grease muffler bearings? :D

I'm sure their training is the best they can get. But take it from a car guy who's seen a few mods done. And maybe done a few. :43: If someone wants to get "illegal" mods done and is sneaky about it, it's going to take someone like me to figure it out. Like I said, I've seen things that get past smog techs, not because the techs don't care or aren't paying attention (they'll get in huge trouble if they let something like this slip and are caught, they care), but because whoever did the mods knew how to do effective mods without being flashy about it.

What cops will be looking for are loud exhausts that are modified (read: really big exhaust tips). Ride heights too low (easy to measure the headlight height). Non-CARB approved underhood stuff (pop the hood, look for pretty colors between the air cleaner and engine, or between the engine and the exhaust, if it's colored and doesn't have an EO sticker, it's illegal). And I'd bet that sums up the extent of it.. Anything more is going to require quite a bit of specific knowledge and/or expensive tools, and a lot of time to use them properly.

I know that some police are hard-core car guys and can tell just by listening to a car run, but most aren't, and that kind of thing is something training can't teach.

I'm not trying to run you or anybody else down, I just want to point out that cars (and especially modified ones) are a lot more complex than a few hours of training can cover.

Bucc
04-04-2008, 6:15 PM
I was for 12 years an ASE Master.
I worked for Jeep, GMC, Pontiac, Buick as well as Mazda.
I have built lots of really nice cars and I'd say 99% came away with not only significant increases in HP but also better steering as well as stopping power.
They also frequently piped cleaner that they did coming in and got better mileage.

Street racers are frequently a real hazard to everyone around them.
I find these little rice rockets zipping around with the crappy sounding rattle trap exhausts really annoying most of the time.
About as annoying as some guy with a '69 Nova with the rear end all cranked up on 8 inch shackles like a stinkbug to accommodate a set of 275 65 15s on wheel with the wrong offset.(That is high treason right there)
However I want someone, anyone to show me a legitimate reason other than it is illegal for citing someone for having a souped up car.

Street racing......cite and tow....simple.
Repeat offender......lose license for life.....simple
Exhaust too loud........ fixit ticket.
Donuts in a Hooters parking lot.......leave it alone unless there is a specific complaint from the guy who either owns or leases the lot.
Period.
You don't detain people in groups and forcefully inspect their cars because someone else is tearing up a parking lot.
Most cops are ill qualified to do so accurately anyway.

Kestryll,
Concerning your statement about changing laws if you don't like them.
I understand what you are saying but please take into consideration we are winning in court because in large part the laws we open repudiate are in direct undeniable(to a reasonable person who speaks and reads English reasonably well ) violation of the second.
There is no clear protection for car owners like that.


I would encourage anyone who defends this action by saying certain things are illegal to first look up the terms mala in se and mala prohibita.
Just because something is illegal does not at all make it wrong.
many times in these cases the law itself is more a violation then the act it concerns.
These are legal terms every calgunner should be aware of especially when writing a Legislator.

After what I saw of the "official story" the RSD put on their website concerning Bright Spot Pawn I would take what their counterparts over in RPD said in this car thing with a grain concerning the release there on stolen engines and modified transmission info or whatever.
A funny thing neglected in this public releases is the concept of innocent until proven guilty.

Anyone who thinks it's cool to have law enforcement doing things like this because street racers are annoying and some of them do very dangerous things needs to remember at one time in this country it was perfectly acceptable to round up Americans of Japanese heritage because there may be a spy among them.

Harrison_Bergeron
04-04-2008, 6:47 PM
However I want someone, anyone to show me a legitimate reason other than it is illegal for citing someone for having a souped up car.


Engine stuff is done in the name of emissions, which I agree with, if you can't pass your class model year sniffer standards you need to undo what you did. Suspension and braking is in the name of safety, and I believe is regulated by DOT, but is not enforced. Lighting, kinda hard to say, with all the cheap HID kits that guys are putting into their stock housings I think that some regulation is justified in the name of safety for other motorists. Tint, trucks are allowed to go dark, I don't really understand how it is safer for officers to deal with heavily tinted trucks than it is cars, but driver and windshield tint, obviously impairs visibility at night. I don't agree with mandatory airbags, which is a big one in the import scene. The rules on harnesses need more clarification as cages are not illegal, and stock belt with a cage is a no no safety wise.

Hopi
04-04-2008, 7:16 PM
Just to clarify.
You first wrote:
It happened before my time, does anyone know how the visual inspection and CARB was pitched to the masses? It is so blatantly corrupt, how is a non-approved header going to hurt anyone in any way? How is a non-approved header going to somehow fool the sniffer test?(I agree fully with the sniffer test) The only purpose of this setup is to line the pockets of the CARB, how did the people fall for it?

Then a few posts later:
Engine stuff is done in the name of emissions, which I agree with, if you can't pass your class model year sniffer standards you need to undo what you did. Suspension and braking is in the name of safety, and I believe is regulated by DOT, but is not enforced. Lighting, kinda hard to say, with all the cheap HID kits that guys are putting into their stock housings I think that some regulation is justified in the name of safety for other motorists. Tint, trucks are allowed to go dark, I don't really understand how it is safer for officers to deal with heavily tinted trucks than it is cars, but driver and windshield tint, obviously impairs visibility at night. I don't agree with mandatory airbags, which is a big one in the import scene. The rules on harnesses need more clarification as cages are not illegal, and stock belt with a cage is a no no safety wise.

Kestryll
04-04-2008, 7:38 PM
I fail to see how this wholesale warrantless search of 150 cars could possibly be justified under the 4th amendment. Preventing this sort of BS is what the 4th amend. was written for. These officers make me sick.
What should make you sick is the laws in place and the intent behind them by the legislators who put them in place, not the officers.
As for the actions, you have already mentioned the fix.
If it's not justified then a case needs to be filed and run to the hilt to put proper ruling in place to prevent these things from happening. It sounds as if the grounds are there it just needs to be taken to the right battlefield and that is not the officers or even Sheriffs/Police Chiefs. It is the Courts whose job it is to make these rulings and judge them by the Constitution. That is the only way to ensure that event like this do not happen again.

And as for you people who say you have no sympathy for people who illegally modify their cars, guns, etc... what the hell are you all doing on this forum anyway? So it's illegal for me to screw a "flash hider" on my OLL, I guess that means I deserve to be prosecuted if I dare put a flash hider on my rifle, huh? Have you forgotten that one of the WHOLE POINTS of this forum is the defeat of BS legislation?
No, the point is defeating those BS laws while staying WITHIN the existing laws until they can be abolished or rewritten correctly.
How long would this forum stand if we were to advocate direct violation of the law? How lasting a change can we make or how loud a voice can we have if we can be summarily dismissed due to advocacy of breaking the law?
No you do NOT deserve to be prosecuted for a flash hider but you will be because that is the current law. The way to approach that is not by just saying 'the hell with it I'm putting one on!' Instead we need to remove that law, one step at a time just as it was put in place.
You brought in one of the first OLLs, did you just order it and consequences be damned or did you research it and find out that it IS legal by the strict definition of the law?
That crucial difference is what this forum is about.

What the cops *should* be doing is busting people who are actually street racing, instead of just busting kids who drive import cars. Banning modified cars because they are suited to street racing is no different that banning "assault weapons" because they are suited for combat. It's called prior restraint, and it's total BS.

Having a mag that holds more ammunition, having a motor that puts out more horsepower... it's all the same idea.

All of you that support this sort of behavior by the CHP, you disgust me.


P.S. regarding this quote:



If you really believe this, than you have NO IDEA how the CARB works. You could modify your car to get BETTER emissions and it would still be illegal.
It's never been about emissions, funds are the key.

Hoop
04-04-2008, 7:42 PM
If it is involved with intake or emissions, it's got to be CARB approved.


Yeap. Also I think they have to pay to get it carb approved but I could be wrong.

Sounds familiar to me...

Harrison_Bergeron
04-04-2008, 7:50 PM
How'd you guys miss this part? CARB=bad, sniffer test=good. CARB=greed, sniffer test=environmental responsibility. Other states have sniffer tests without visual inspections, we should too, especially considering that SoCal is the center of the automotive aftermarket.

Engine stuff is done in the name of emissions, which I agree with, if you can't pass your class model year sniffer standards you need to undo what you did.

Also, I don't equate the plight of import tuners to the plight of those that want evil features and detachable mags, I think it is more along the lines of people who are harassed for OLLs, BBs, and hi-caps on featureless rifles. Both groups have unjust laws, but for the time being I think time is better spent stopping harassment for things that are perfectly within the law.

Harrison_Bergeron
04-04-2008, 7:52 PM
Yeap. Also I think they have to pay to get it carb approved but I could be wrong.

Sounds familiar to me...

yup, they gotta pay for testing, and it aint cheap. I believe it is very similar to the handgun list, but not to up to date on that yet.

.50DE
04-04-2008, 8:22 PM
as far as modification goes, this state is bas acwards. I agree things need to be changed. If something is safe *motor wise* and passes a sniffer test, nuff said. visual inspecton of clean burning cars o trucks is a waste of time. The sad fact of the matter is, change wont be had anytime soon, atleast for the good. Car buffs much like gun owners suffer from the (this cant happen to us) sickness.

M. Sage
04-04-2008, 9:19 PM
yup, they gotta pay for testing, and it aint cheap. I believe it is very similar to the handgun list, but not to up to date on that yet.

It's horrendously expensive, especially when you consider the smaller markets that exist inside the automotive aftermarket. Some cars, there aren't a ton of them out there, but some people like to put aftermarket hop-ups on them. These little niche markets are hit hardest, even though the parts are often better quality and more likely to actually work as advertised, without huge drawbacks to driveability and emissions.

Hell, the sniffer is pretty obsolete. OBD II has pretty well eliminated the need for it. The number of OBD II cars that fail the test when the check engine light is off and all monitors are set is so low that it's ridiculous to even require a sniffer test for them. A "plug and scan" test would make a lot more sense, and is used in many states. It would take only a few minutes, the equipment wouldn't cost $60,000, and it would be a whole lot cheaper. Instead, we get the scan test, and a loaded-state emissions test.

What's really idiotic are the number of cars that cross those rollers and get a smog certificate that are unfit for the road because of safety concerns. Forget smog testing, safety equipment testing would make more sense. I quit counting cars I see on the road that have tires worn down to (or through) the cords. Cars that have obvious brake and/or suspension problems. Cars that have one or more tires that won't stay in contact with the freeway because the shock or strut on that corner is so blown out that the tire just bounces constantly.

Somehow, we're not worried one iota about these totally unsafe cars (don't get me started on the state of California's drivers, because they suck), but if your car has a hint of smoke out the tailpipe, there's an 800 number for people to call.

W
T
F

Two Shots
04-04-2008, 11:00 PM
Now our great state is trying to screw the classic car owners in the Valley by wanting the cars smogged. Mosted of these cars are driven 250 miles or less in a year. So now some dumbazz thinks lets make more money and make then install original parts. (Its only money) I'll be contacting Car clubs about this BS and seeing what help the aftermarket parts companies can give to stop this Bill SB1549, authored by state Sen. Dean Florez, D-Shafter
People need to say enough and straighten out the crap we're in instead of adding to it. I'm getting tired of this bend over atitude with no vazoline and them wanting you to say yes Sir and rejoin the herd of sheep. What it has to do with guns is that they can push any new gun,car, fire place law they want thru without the public having a vote.

http://www.recordnet.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080404/A_NEWS/804040314

ivanimal
04-04-2008, 11:07 PM
I think if you held off on watching the Internet gun sales forums and such you could afford one in about a weeks time ;)

Who said I couldnt afford one.:D I prefer things that go faster like bullets.:D

Razgrizo
04-04-2008, 11:40 PM
ONCE AGAIN, I will state it more clearly. I don't care if you mod your car, as long as it is safe to drive. Put a huge exhaust on it, put a wing on the back, spend 10k on your car for that extra 1.5 horses. I don't care. Just don't drive like an idiot on the road. I AM NOT DEFENDING THIS OPERATION...GET IT?

Finally, I am not in either of the camps described above. Those who believe that all cops are bad are complete morons. Those who blindly defend all cops are equally moronic. Very simply, cops are people. Some good, some bad. The bad we do gets much more press than the plumber who gets arrested for drugs, or the doctor who gets a DUI.

I have to agree with eta34 here. Driving a modified vehicle is no different than driving a stock-bone vehicle at 100mph on the freeway. What's more important is safety. As long the driver with the modified vehicle is using his car in a safe manner and not endangering the public, that should be fine. People like to play dress up with their cars. Same thing with gun owners. I have friends who pays 5-10k just to modify their car. It's a style, fashion thing, whatever you want to call it. They don't street race. None of them. Why? They know the consequences that they can endanger sombody or themselves. Dressing up car is a hobby thing.

As for the cops. Not every Officer is bad. Like eta34 said, there are good cops and bad cops. Where ever you go, you'll meet those kind of people. It doesn't have to be a cop. It can be anyone.

nothing4u
04-05-2008, 12:26 AM
And as for you people who say you have no sympathy for people who illegally modify their cars, guns, etc... what the hell are you all doing on this forum anyway? So it's illegal for me to screw a "flash hider" on my OLL, I guess that means I deserve to be prosecuted if I dare put a flash hider on my rifle, huh?

If you have a OLL with bullet button or similar device you can have a flash hinder on it and be perfectly legal. The only time you can't have a flash hinder is if you go with the MM build with detachable magazine.

nobody_special
04-05-2008, 12:33 AM
As for the cops. Not every Officer is bad. Like eta34 said, there are good cops and bad cops. Where ever you go, you'll meet those kind of people. It doesn't have to be a cop. It can be anyone.

Certainly I'll agree with you and eta34 on this. That said, how many officers took part in this unethical extravaganza of civil rights violations? Clearly it wasn't just one or two.

Hearing about such organized abuse of authority makes me want to hoist the Jolly Roger and rebel, perhaps writing a few lines about a "long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object..." :chris: (Heh, I'm too terrified of authority to make a good rebel... but I can dream. ;))

It's the same here as with firearms: ridiculous regulations, systematically enacted and enforced in order to suppress freedom. (And I'm not saying there's a right to endanger others via street racing, or to cause excessive pollution... just like there is no right to commit assault with a firearm.)

Gee, I get all worked up, and I'm not even into cars...

Solidsnake87
04-05-2008, 1:29 AM
Wow. I know I'd ask for a warrant.

Bucc
04-05-2008, 11:27 AM
Wow. I know I'd ask for a warrant.

LOL, yeah well me too.
But I really can't recommend it after having done it a couple times.
It's not as much fun as it sounds.
Believe me.

510dat
04-05-2008, 12:24 PM
I found these posted on a car enthusiast site, relating to a similar bust in Texas. These are NOT from this case, and different laws may apply as it's a different state, but it certainly may be helpful.


I'll post them separately in hopes they'll be easier to read.

510dat
04-05-2008, 12:26 PM
http://www.click2houston.com/news/1634868/detail.html

Arrestee Files $100M Lawsuit

POSTED: 9:16 a.m. CDT August 27, 2002
UPDATED: 9:22 a.m. CDT August 27, 2002

HOUSTON -- Twelve more police supervisors have been suspended in connection with the department's handling of a trespassing raid that has prompted accusations of coercion against the captain who led the roundup and a $100 million lawsuit against the city.

Nine sergeants, two lieutenants and a captain were suspended with pay on Monday.

A Houston Police Department captain who ordered the arrests of 278 people at a Kmart parking lot in west Houston was suspended Saturday pending an internal affairs inquiry into the controversial bust.

Capt. Mark Aguirre, a 28-year veteran of the department and the force's highest-ranking Hispanic officer, was relieved of his duties after meeting with internal affairs officers, Aguirre's lawyer, Terry Yates, said earlier.

Police cited an investigation by HPD's internal affairs division in declining to comment on the latest suspensions.

But they confirmed that criminal allegations led to Saturday's suspension of Aguirre. Spokesmen for the department said Aguirre, a 23-year HPD veteran, was suspended because of allegations that he tried to influence other officers' statements to investigators about the incident.

Many of those arrested said they were customers swept up in the raids and that police ignored evidence that they had done nothing wrong.

One of those arrested, Justin Esparza, filed a $100 million lawsuit in U.S. District Court on Monday alleging that Aguirre and the city of Houston falsely arrested him for "attempted trespass."

Aguirre ordered the arrests Aug. 17 of hundreds of people gathered peacefully at a 24-hour Kmart Super Center parking lot on Westheimer or eating at the Sonic Drive-in next door.

Police said that the crowds impeded the access to and from businesses and that as a result of the operation 278 people were arrested with the majority being charged with criminal trespass.

Officers had received reports of individuals gathering in the business parking lots spinning their tires and preparing to "drag race" on nearby streets, authorities said.

510dat
04-05-2008, 12:27 PM
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5546315.html

Feb. 15, 2008, 7:11PM

By CINDY GEORGE
Copyright 2008 Houston Chronicle

A federal judge has declined another city request to end the 10 lawsuits filed by people arrested in a 2002 Kmart street racing raid.

It's the second time U.S. District Judge Nancy Atlas has ruled that the lawsuits can go forward.

In a decision this week, Atlas wrote that the more than 100 plaintiffs could sue about whether the Houston Police Department had a "custom of mass detention without individualized reasonable suspicion."

A mediation is scheduled in the coming weeks. Without settlements, a joint trial is set for April 14. Other plaintiffs already settled with the city.

In 2005, the judge ruled that the police plan that led to the mass arrests was unconstitutional. In a scathing opinion, she called HPD tactics to detain and arrest people who were not observed violating the law "an unjustified, almost totalitarian, regime of suspicionless stops."

Civil rights lawsuits were filed after almost 300 people were arrested in August 2002 during a surprise raid on the Kmart parking lot in the 8400 block of Westheimer. The HPD operation was an attempt to combat street racing.

All of the cases name former HPD Chief Clarence C.O. Bradford, who is running as a Democrat for Harris County District Attorney, and allege he knew about the plan. The lawsuits also accused police of brandishing pistols and shotguns and verbal use during the incident.

Most of those arrested were charged with trespassing or curfew violations, but none was accused of street racing. The charges were dropped after public outcry. Three years later, Atlas said the city's efforts to shut down street racing that summer were unconstitutional.

In court filings, the city tried to avoid trial by arguing that issue was not the mass detentions, but the department's plan to pursue racing spectators through the use of trespassing laws.

Senior Assistant City Attorney Robert Cambrice could not be reached for comment.

The plaintiffs claimed that HPD maintained a pattern of mass detentions dating back to 1989. But in the most recent ruling, Atlas said those cases were not sufficiently similar to the incident in 2002.

She is allowing the plaintiffs to continue their cases on the disputed facts of the custom during the summer of 2002.

The judge also wrote that there is a genuine dispute about then-Chief Bradford's knowledge about that summer's plan.

Bradford lost his appeal of Atlas' decision to keep him as a defendant in the lawsuits.

Civil rights lawyer Randall Kallinen, who is on the legal team representing detainees, said he expects this lawsuit to affect Bradford's campaign and potential tenure as the county's prosecutor.

"If Chief Bradford is going to be the DA and if he's going to be liable for all of these civil rights violations, it doesn't bode well for the citizens of Harris County," Kallinen said.

Several other lawyers representing plaintiffs did not return calls or declined to comment.

510dat
04-05-2008, 12:29 PM
I suspect that the major difference is that the Texas case was actual arrest or detention of almost three hundred people, while in the California case they just issued citations and confiscated some cars (to be crushed).

I found the initial article here:
http://www.my350z.com/forum/showthread.php?t=348922

and there's a lot of good discussion on the legality of the operation later in the thread.

nobody_special
04-05-2008, 1:32 PM
510dat, it seems to me that preventing people from leaving (blocking all exits while systematically examining or searching all vehicles) would constitute detention.

M. Sage
04-05-2008, 6:10 PM
Nah, you're not detained... you just can't leave. :rolleyes: :p ;)

510dat
04-05-2008, 6:36 PM
510dat, it seems to me that preventing people from leaving (blocking all exits while systematically examining or searching all vehicles) would constitute detention.

I agree, so I should have phrased that better.

One of those articles included a photo of maybe a dozen people in restraints, which I don't think happened in the Ca incident.

Here:
http://images.ibsys.com/2002/0820/1622563_200X150.jpg


I strongly disagree with what happened, but the fact that they didn't restrain/handcuff everybody may be the technicality that made the event (mostly) legal.

nobody_special
04-05-2008, 7:26 PM
I strongly disagree with what happened, but the fact that they didn't restrain/handcuff everybody may be the technicality that made the event (mostly) legal.

I could be wrong, but I believe actual physical restraint is unimportant in cases of unlawful detention. A person may be detained (lawfully or not) with or without being put into handcuffs. For example, officers may use handcuffs when detaining a person during a traffic stop, even if no arrest is made, and that is legal.

It's not the use of restraints that is unlawful, it's the detention... unlawful seizure of the person.

tyrist
04-05-2008, 8:10 PM
There is a different expectation of privacy for your home than for your car. Which is why a narcotics dog getting a hit on your car is pc for search while it would be no good for a home.

Remember all those vehicles are licensed to drive on california roadways and by being licensed they have to be held to a certain standard. If you want to have whatever in your vehicle then register it off road and nothing applies to you. Cars can be "safety" inspected pretty much as anytime.

Harrison_Bergeron
04-05-2008, 8:33 PM
Remember all those vehicles are licensed to drive on california roadways and by being licensed they have to be held to a certain standard. If you want to have whatever in your vehicle then register it off road and nothing applies to you. Cars can be "safety" inspected pretty much as anytime.

See this is what I was talking about :popcorn:

nobody_special
04-05-2008, 10:03 PM
Cars can be "safety" inspected pretty much as anytime.

No, they cannot.

The purchase or licensing of a car does not remove one's 4th amendment rights.

Monkeybits
04-05-2008, 10:09 PM
What I find oddly comforting about this discussion is that with my admittedly narrow focus on 2nd Amendment issues, it's good to know that there are other hobbyists that are targeted by the police. I'm not saying that the actual targeting is good, but the fact we're not alone means that more people are aware and sympathize with the situations many firearms enthusiasts find themselves in.

I think many LEOs understand our perspective, and having civilian friends who are responsible gun owners, know that our complaints are legitimate. It is unfortunate to hear about those officers who don't treat civilians with the respect any citizen owes another citizen in our fine country. It's also sad to hear about civilians who treat LEOs poorly. Law abiding citizens, whether we carry a badge or not, should be working together and respecting each other to make our society safer for everyone. Incidents like these are the result of someone forgetting that important principle.

tyrist
04-05-2008, 10:19 PM
No, they cannot.

The purchase or licensing of a car does not remove one's 4th amendment rights.


umm....weight stations. I don't think you understand what a safety inspection is. It's not a search of the passanger compartment.

razorx
04-05-2008, 10:22 PM
From the Texas incident, there are enough similarities for this to be reviewed by attorneys for a lawsuit. While not nearly as extreme as the Texas case, there are common principles at play.

dustoff31
04-05-2008, 10:28 PM
umm....weight stations. I don't think you understand what a safety inspection is. It's not a search of the passanger compartment.

Thank you. I've had my truck inspected as many as three times in one day in various states. Of course, if everything is as it should be, they only last a few minutes.

eaglemike
04-05-2008, 11:08 PM
Perhaps the situation calls for the ACLU....:rolleyes:

The whole seizure thing being done without actual process is pretty scary. If any of the vehicles are in compliance, how is the owner going to be compensated?? Or is this another situation where there is no accountability of the agencies involved?

Simply being a spectator to street racing is against the law here in San Diego.

all the best,

Mike

Harrison_Bergeron
04-05-2008, 11:08 PM
Don't you just roll onto a scale for a weight inpection?

dustoff31
04-05-2008, 11:24 PM
Don't you just roll onto a scale for a weight inpection?

Generally yes. But trucks and/or drivers are routinely pulled into the barn for a complete vehicle safety and records inspection.

The selection may be completely at random; because you haven't been inspected for awhile, or because your company has a crappy safety record.

nobody_special
04-06-2008, 1:16 AM
Do truck inspections fall under commerce regulations? Because police need cause to pull over a car for a moving violation, so clearly there's a difference...

Waingro
04-06-2008, 8:35 AM
http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/23/2302.asp





While not directly related to the second amendment or the gun community, I feel that the California gun community should get a hold of groups like these people (the car enthusiasts) in opposition of illegal abuses of power.

At the very least, we could make some friends and educate them about their 4th amendment rights, which I suspect that this group was totally ignorant of.

Gun enthusiasts are a small minority in Ca, as are car enthusiasts, but in combination we're a much larger minority. Both groups are subject to some extremely oppressive legislation, and I think we could help each other out.

So let me get this straight... they use our tax dollars to go tax other people on petty things such as tinted windows, and no front license plate?

So these guys are paying tax to be taxed more?

Disgusting.

GO OUT AND CATCH MURDERS AND RAPISTS! LEAVE PARKED CARS ALONE!

dustoff31
04-06-2008, 9:53 AM
Do truck inspections fall under commerce regulations? Because police need cause to pull over a car for a moving violation, so clearly there's a difference...

They are covered under both state and federal law. In some states an annual vehicle inspection is required. I mean you have to take your vehicle (car or truck) to the Highway Patrol/DMV/State Police and they inspect it.

Some of us here remember when California did this. The CHP set up checkpoints on the road, just like they do with DWI checkpoints nowadays.

There really is no legal difference between cars and trucks as it relates to safety inspections. Any time one operates a vehicle on public highways, the state has a right to inspect it to insure it is legal and safe. Just like when you get a driver's license, you consent to blood alcohol testing as a condition of licensing.

M. Sage
04-06-2008, 10:56 AM
They are covered under both state and federal law. In some states an annual vehicle inspection is required. I mean you have to take your vehicle (car or truck) to the Highway Patrol/DMV/State Police and they inspect it.

Some of us here remember when California did this. The CHP set up checkpoints on the road, just like they do with DWI checkpoints nowadays.

There really is no legal difference between cars and trucks as it relates to safety inspections. Any time one operates a vehicle on public highways, the state has a right to inspect it to insure it is legal and safe. Just like when you get a driver's license, you consent to blood alcohol testing as a condition of licensing.

That's odd, because the police do need some kind of probable cause to pull you over. If they haven't observed any problems with your driving or with the vehicle, a regular driver (not a commercial driver) can't legally be pulled over.

There has to be a reason beyond "papers, please. And I'd like to check the condition of your brakes, too."

ETA: Also, a government can not have rights. Sorry, hearing "the government (or a government agency) has the right to...." is a pet peeve of mine. Governments and their agencies have zero rights.

dustoff31
04-06-2008, 11:36 AM
That's odd, because the police do need some kind of probable cause to pull you over. If they haven't observed any problems with your driving or with the vehicle, a regular driver (not a commercial driver) can't legally be pulled over.

There has to be a reason beyond "papers, please. And I'd like to check the condition of your brakes, too."

ETA: Also, a government can not have rights. Sorry, hearing "the government (or a government agency) has the right to...." is a pet peeve of mine. Governments and their agencies have zero rights.

Well the CVC is itself 400 and some pages of probable cause. For example, does the tread of your tires protrude beyond the wheel well or mud flaps? Do your fog lights have CHP approval numbers? I agree with you as to the government having no rights, but I am at the same time a realist. I deal in they way things are, not what I wish they were. That's not to say we shouldn't work to change them.

But in view of the following, it appears to me that at least in California it is in fact perfectly "legal" for a papers please and brake check.

California Vehicle Code
Inspection of Vehicles
2805. (a) For the purpose of locating stolen vehicles, (1) any member of the California Highway Patrol, or (2) a member of a city police department, a member of a county sheriff's office, or a district attorney investigator, whose primary responsibility is to conduct vehicle theft investigations, may inspect any vehicle of a type required to be registered under this code, or any identifiable vehicle component thereof, on a highway or in any public garage, repair shop, terminal, parking lot, new or used car lot, automobile dismantler's lot, vehicle shredding facility, vehicle leasing or rental lot, vehicle equipment rental yard, vehicle salvage pool, or other similar establishment, or any agricultural or construction work location where work is being actively performed, and may inspect the title or registration of vehicles, in order to establish the rightful ownership or possession of the vehicle or identifiable vehicle component.
As used in this subdivision, "identifiable vehicle component" means any component which can be distinguished from other similar components by a serial number or other unique distinguishing number, sign, or symbol.
(b) A member of the California Highway Patrol, a member of a city police department or county sheriff's office, or a district attorney investigator whose primary responsibility is to conduct vehicle theft investigations, may also inspect, for the purposes specified in subdivision (a), implements of husbandry, special construction equipment, forklifts, and special mobile equipment in the places described in subdivision (a) or when that vehicle is incidentally operated or transported upon a highway.
(c) Whenever possible, inspections conducted pursuant to subdivision (a) or (b) shall be conducted at a time and in a manner so as to minimize any interference with, or delay of, business operations.
Amended Sec. 21, Ch. 688, Stats. 2000. Effective January 1, 2001.



As you will note here, it says reasonable cause, not probable cause. And certainly what is reasonable to you or me is not a factor.

Vehicle and Equipment Inspection
2806. Any regularly employed and salaried police officer or deputy sheriff, or any reserve police officer or reserve deputy sheriff listed in Section 830.6 of the Penal Code, having reasonable cause to believe that any vehicle or combination of vehicles is not equipped as required by this code or is in any unsafe condition as to endanger any person, may require the driver to stop and submit the vehicle or combination of vehicles to an inspection and those tests as may be appropriate to determine the safety to persons and compliance with the code.

Shotgun Man
04-06-2008, 12:02 PM
As you will note here, it says reasonable cause, not probable cause. And certainly what is reasonable to you or me is not a factor.

Probable cause, reasonable cause, reasonable suspicion-- it all seems to be the same thing.

KenpoProfessor
04-06-2008, 12:23 PM
Well the CVC is itself 400 and some pages of probable cause. For example, does the tread of your tires protrude beyond the wheel well or mud flaps? Do your fog lights have CHP approval numbers? I agree with you as to the government having no rights, but I am at the same time a realist. I deal in they way things are, not what I wish they were. That's not to say we shouldn't work to change them.

But in view of the following, it appears to me that at least in California it is in fact perfectly "legal" for a papers please and brake check.

California Vehicle Code
Inspection of Vehicles
2805. (a) For the purpose of locating stolen vehicles, (1) any member of the California Highway Patrol, or (2) a member of a city police department, a member of a county sheriff's office, or a district attorney investigator, whose primary responsibility is to conduct vehicle theft investigations, may inspect any vehicle of a type required to be registered under this code, or any identifiable vehicle component thereof, on a highway or in any public garage, repair shop, terminal, parking lot, new or used car lot, automobile dismantler's lot, vehicle shredding facility, vehicle leasing or rental lot, vehicle equipment rental yard, vehicle salvage pool, or other similar establishment, or any agricultural or construction work location where work is being actively performed, and may inspect the title or registration of vehicles, in order to establish the rightful ownership or possession of the vehicle or identifiable vehicle component.
As used in this subdivision, "identifiable vehicle component" means any component which can be distinguished from other similar components by a serial number or other unique distinguishing number, sign, or symbol.
(b) A member of the California Highway Patrol, a member of a city police department or county sheriff's office, or a district attorney investigator whose primary responsibility is to conduct vehicle theft investigations, may also inspect, for the purposes specified in subdivision (a), implements of husbandry, special construction equipment, forklifts, and special mobile equipment in the places described in subdivision (a) or when that vehicle is incidentally operated or transported upon a highway.
(c) Whenever possible, inspections conducted pursuant to subdivision (a) or (b) shall be conducted at a time and in a manner so as to minimize any interference with, or delay of, business operations.
Amended Sec. 21, Ch. 688, Stats. 2000. Effective January 1, 2001.



As you will note here, it says reasonable cause, not probable cause. And certainly what is reasonable to you or me is not a factor.

Vehicle and Equipment Inspection
2806. Any regularly employed and salaried police officer or deputy sheriff, or any reserve police officer or reserve deputy sheriff listed in Section 830.6 of the Penal Code, having reasonable cause to believe that any vehicle or combination of vehicles is not equipped as required by this code or is in any unsafe condition as to endanger any person, may require the driver to stop and submit the vehicle or combination of vehicles to an inspection and those tests as may be appropriate to determine the safety to persons and compliance with the code.

So what would be something that fit into the AOV heading, you know, kinda like the AOW for the NFA stuff?

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

dustoff31
04-06-2008, 3:54 PM
So what would be something that fit into the AOV heading, you know, kinda like the AOW for the NFA stuff?

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

Why that would be subsection b. Implements of husbandry, special construction equipment, forklifts, etc.

cullen
04-06-2008, 9:20 PM
there is an orginization that fights for rights of car enthusiasts , its called SEMA. its mostly for manufacturers of aftermarket parts though.

it used to be that you get pulled over for having too loud of an exhaust, but that got thrown out cause leos dont have decibel readers to know how loud is too loud. they still made money for years on citations that people just paid.
now they have " aiding and abetting a street race" where you get busted for being anywhere near street racing might be occuring.
they(leos) pull people over and search your car for "illegal" mods done to your car cause your car is sporty looking. i thought probable cause was for drugs, now it is for searching for a non approved air filter on your car?

it has gotten rediculous and people just pay the fine cause its cheaper than a $1000 lawyer.

i own a performance auto shop and i could write a novel about these issues.

im just glad we(gun owners) at least have the NRA and calguns so i can have a little fun in CA.

Coat of Arms
04-07-2008, 7:46 AM
ETA: And go ahead, try to claim that not one innocent person has ever been killed by the irresponsible behavior of someone behind the wheel of a modified vehicle on public roadways. Not saying the name calling is appropriate, but clearly there is a risk to the public by some of these people and their behavior.

So your saying if I drive a car without any mods I will never be in a car crash????

Just because you have something done to your car means you're going to go out and street racing or drive recklessly??

Just because a few rotten apples have lost control of their cars ,ran red lights or stop signs and crashed into another car and killed themselfs and the other person while having something modified to their car means it gives the right for cops to pull this crap is ok... I think not.

I just don't get your logic.

More people die each year just by regular drivers in regular cars so I guess we should ban all cars! Cars are bad!

GuyW
04-07-2008, 10:15 AM
...And please, let's not even try to make the arguement that these people were parked. How the hell you think they got the vehicle there, pixie dust?...

If they were hard core street racers, some would have used trailers to bring their car...

GuyW
04-07-2008, 10:23 AM
....certain things are illegal to first look up the terms mala in se and mala prohibita.
Just because something is illegal does not at all make it wrong....

The problem is - when the liberals don't like something, it is automatically "mala in se" in their minds. They create their own standards of morality....

eta34
04-07-2008, 12:37 PM
So your saying if I drive a car without any mods I will never be in a car crash????

Just because you have something done to your car means you're going to go out and street racing or drive recklessly??

Just because a few rotten apples have lost control of their cars ,ran red lights or stop signs and crashed into another car and killed themselfs and the other person while having something modified to their car means it gives the right for cops to pull this crap is ok... I think not.

I just don't get your logic.

More people die each year just by regular drivers in regular cars so I guess we should ban all cars! Cars are bad!

Heck, Mama Cass died from a felonious ham sandwich. Where is the outcry to ban excessive ham on sandwiches? Oh, the humanity!

pnkssbtz
04-07-2008, 1:37 PM
Heck, Mama Cass died from a felonious ham sandwich. Where is the outcry to ban excessive ham on sandwiches? Oh, the humanity!

Right next to the women who signed the Penn & Teller pettion to end women's "suffrage", or the idiots who were attempting to ban the universal SOLVENT DHMO (dhmo.org)...

I know you said it in jest, but I'd bet $20 bucks there is an organization or entity trying to ban excessive Ham on sandwiches. (Recent outcry for trans fatty acids?)

OKAY
04-07-2008, 2:16 PM
The 'nazi' and racial accusations are NOT acceptable and will not be tolerated.



I am a little disapointed that everyone ignored this comment. I grew up in an area that was mostly white people and was involved in the street racing scene for a short time. The police did not treat us any different because we where white. We gathered in large numbers and got harassed, searched, and ticketed the same as anyone else. As strict as the mod has bean on the thread I am a little disapointed that this racist remark made it through with out even a comment. :confused:

rorschach
04-07-2008, 2:23 PM
it used to be that you get pulled over for having too loud of an exhaust, but that got thrown out cause leos dont have decibel readers to know how loud is too loud.

Some do. I know Anaheim and some of the beach cities issue them to their motorcops to go after loud Harleys.

Hopi
04-07-2008, 2:43 PM
I am a little disapointed that everyone ignored this comment. I grew up in an area that was mostly white people and was involved in the street racing scene for a short time. The police did not treat us any different because we where white. We gathered in large numbers and got harassed, searched, and ticketed the same as anyone else. As strict as the mod has bean on the thread I am a little disapointed that this racist remark made it through with out even a comment. :confused:

The 'nazi' and racial accusations are NOT acceptable and will not be tolerated.

I think it's safe to say that the man, as referenced above, does not like large numbers of any common citizens gathering. Countless historical examples demonstrate 'white' and 'non-white' groups being harassed for peaceful assembly. Further, and important to you point, there are far more violent and disturbing examples of encounters with 'non-white' groups and the man vs. similar encounters with 'white' citizens.

The term "ricer", thrown around a bit during this thread, is also derogatory and ethnically-based. Why did you gloss over that detail?

Gun laws, and drug laws, just to name a few, are distinctly rooted in racist, xenophobic, and bigoted fears. Why is it so far fetched to question that the same forces are at work here?

OKAY
04-07-2008, 3:10 PM
I did not see the term "ricer" used or I would have happily included it in my post. After a quick search you are correct, someone did use the term "ricer". I am not racist. I have more close friends that are asian and pacific islander than white friends. I am glad you pointed that out. Mabye something should be said about all the racist posts in the thread. I also think that this should not be used as an excuse for why this happend. I bet there where plenty of "Whites" whos rights where violated during this incident as well.

Shotgun Man
04-08-2008, 5:44 PM
The term "ricer", thrown around a bit during this thread, is also derogatory and ethnically-based. Why did you gloss over that detail?


I think the term "ricer" has become so-commonplace as not to suggest any inferences of racial antipathy. Ferinstance, "Rice rocket," a term applied to asian import motorcycles is akin to calling a Harley a "hog." The use of "hog" to describe Harleys is not racist.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rice_rocket

"The term is sometimes used derogatorily, implying that American and/or European vehicles are superior to Japanese made vehicles, but, as with many slang terms, may also be used neutrally or even as a term of affection, depending on the speaker and context."

Kestryll
04-08-2008, 7:20 PM
I've heard the term 'rice rocket since the 80's when I worked at a Suzuki/Kawasaki Dealership and have heard the term 'Ricer' or 'Rice Burner' for many years in regards to Japanese imports.

If you really want to be racially offended by it I'm sure you could.
But frankly at that level you're looking for reasons to be offended and anything will do it for you.

As for mike100's statement, that is what the 'Report Post' button in the upper right hand side of every post is for. It looks like this: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/images/buttons/report.gif
Like most of the members, I and the Staff miss things periodically. That means when something like this slips past us, instead of assuming it is tacit approval it's up to the members to report it so we can deal with it.

His quote is not appropriate and has been dealt with.

Dr. Peter Venkman
04-08-2008, 7:42 PM
There are guidelines as to what is legal and what is illegal.

Treason against the king .... ILLEGAL.

Not paying taxes... ILLEGAL.

We, here, keeps thing LEGAL.... we DO NOT *ILLEGALLY* throw away tea.... if someone ILLEGALLY speaks of treason against the king, we have no sympathy for that....

So.... I don't know if we should endorse illegal activitess here....

They need a there own representatives in parliament..... and fight the laws and to make their "modifications" legal.... NOT to ignore the law and make illegal modifications and then cry about it.

FIXED.

:rolleyes:

snobordr
04-08-2008, 7:52 PM
Go ahead, try to claim that not one innocent person has ever been killed by the irresponsible behavior of someone behind the trigger of a semiautomatic firearm in a public school.

Some people just don't get it...

Bet you its easier to get behind the wheel of a car legally after being convicted of a DUI then it is to get a firearm legally after getting busted for possession of an illegal AW, let alone shooting someone.

Yeah, not the same thing is it? I do get it, better than others it would seem. Its a hell of a lot safer to crack down on illegal gatherings than it is to stop a large number of performance vehicles after busting up an illegal street race or side show. As one poster already brilliantly stated, "I would just run!". Good thinking there gudelhead, hopefully you don't lose control of your car and slide through someone else while making your escape. If anyone here really believes that this was done in the name of revenue (48 whole tickets going to make that little operation profitable huh?) I suggest having your head examined.

snobordr
04-08-2008, 8:04 PM
If they were hard core street racers, some would have used trailers to bring their car...

Fine, then they can trailer the car to the track to do their racing, the car is also most likely properly registered as a track vehicle too which would also remove a lot of the restrictions that come along with the licensing of the vehicle for use on public roadways.

Just because I don't agree with current firearms law doesn't make it ok for me to build a rifle in an illegal configuration.

ETA: FWIW, if these people got together and as a group, made the effort to find a safe and legal way for them to pursue their interests (ie, car club forms and rents a local track on occasion) and the illegal activity stopped or at least died down, there would probably be a lot less focus on them in particular. Sound familiar anyone?

nobody_special
04-08-2008, 10:45 PM
illegal gatherings

Illegal what?

I seem to recall something about a right of the people peaceably to assemble...