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marxdspot
03-30-2008, 1:33 AM
UPDATE (07/06/08)
Sorry for the delay, fellow gun enthusiasts. I've been away from home and finally found the time to post the pics of the FS2000 Buttstock extensions.

PLEASE NOTE: These are pictures of the prototype and not the final product. Improvements are currently being made.

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w316/marxdspot/Items%20of%20Sale/F2KExtension1.jpg
http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w316/marxdspot/Items%20of%20Sale/F2KExtension2.jpg
Lots of work has been done since the prototype was completed to include proper radius placement, cosmetic alignment, and further refinement. The "hood" you see on the prototype on the upper side of the extension no longer exist, the extension will fit flush all the way around the stock with only to small rounded tab on each side where the threaded fasteners are located. The rear buttpad will have a large radius around the end edge and all the stock lines will be in alignment.

The final product should be ready within the next week or couple of days. Cost will be in the range of $75+/- depending on interest. The more people interested in purchasing it, the lower the price goes.

I've got a growing list of interest from my previous post. Just in case I've missed some of them, please resend a PM so that I could confirm you're on the buy list. And, for anyone else that's interested in purchasing the buttstock extension for the FS2000, please PM me as well for interest and/or any questions.

**Please read my previous post below for more details.**


************************************************** ****

NOTE FOR ALL FS2000 OWNERS & POTENTIAL OWNERS:

I've always wanted to own an FN FS2000 and some of the challenges in owning one in this great state of ours are issues regarding the length, thumbhole stock, and detacheable mag. IMO, if I'm gonna dish out $2000+ on a rifle, as much as possible, I wouldn't want to spend another arm and leg to make it legal. Additionally, I wouldn't want to do any asthetic neutering, i.e. drill or cut up any part of the rifle. Also, imagine the cost of shipping now a days to just get it professional gunsmith.

Well, I felt that extending the buttstock/pad would be the simplest way of eliminating the problem of the F2SK being under 30". After that, you can choose to fill in the thumbhole or fix the mag (like brasscoe noted in one of his posts regarding the FS2000, a short 10 round mag is hard to remove.)

I've been working with a machinist in creating a buttpad 1.5" extender for the FN FS2K that will increase the rifle's length by a little over 1". This isn't going to be a backyard made product, rather it will be a legit project designed by computer and machined/created by CNC machines. A beta product will be made in about 4-6 weeks, so I'll post pics once it's up. The specs?...it'll be made by a super tough polymer plastic and bead blasted to match as close of a feel as the original stock. Color is black and an additional sling mount will be integrated into the extension. More importantly, the designers and I are trying to make sure that the fit between FS2K buttstock to extender and extender to buttpad are seemless. In other words, we are trying to make the extender an exact match to the rifle ensuring ease of installation as if you're simply trying to fit the original buttpad onto the buttstock. An additional advantage would go for those who simply would want an extended buttstock due to a short length of pull.

Now the cost...according to the people that I'm working with, if we can get between 50-100+ "interested" in something like this, then we can keep the cost down. I'm honestly trying to keep cost as low as $65 to $75 dollars or even less. So, please PM if you're interested. There's no obligation. I simply need to gauge interest and would like to give them an answer as soon as possible. So, I think two weeks from this post would be ample to hopefully let them know how many to make for the initial batch of extenders.

Please PM me if you have any questions or post any suggestions you may have. Again, I'm just trying to help my fellow buddies here in Calguns and others own this unique rifle legally and cost effectively. I hope to post this on the FN forum soon. I'll make sure to keep everyone updated on its progress. Thanks in advance for any help and support.

aplinker
03-30-2008, 3:43 AM
I would much rather extend the front than the back. A fake can, long brake, etc...

Then filling the thumbhole. Detachable mags are much, much nicer than a thumb in the hole.

saki302
03-30-2008, 4:10 AM
IMO, you would be better off making a 1/2-28 adapter for the front and attaching a brake to it.

Since MANY members own legal 30 round AR mags, a featureless rifle w/ detachable mag makes much more sense than a BB IMO.

-Dave

savageevo
03-30-2008, 9:31 AM
To make this rifle in legal configuration without altering the length, changing the flash hider and filling the thumb hole, you simply turn it into a bolt action rifle. Same rules as the par-1 rifle that big 5 sells. Simply remove the gas regulator. Once the gas legulator is removed it becomes a bolt action rifle. One pull, one shot. One pull, one shot. Since this is a bolt action, the only requirement is OAL of 27" or more. You can have all the tacticool features because this rifle is not a semi-auto, its a bolt action. When you decide to move out Rebublic of Kali, then you may change that back to Semi. I hope this helps.

marxdspot
03-30-2008, 9:47 AM
Question though, since the entire rifle is made in Belgium and if we change out the original muzzle brake, wouldn't it be subject to 922r?

Also, the muzzle brake is pin welded. This option of extending the buttpad is for those who'd rather not drill a hole into the muzzle to remove the pin.

Just offering the buttpad extender as another option for those who are interested.

Thanks again, guys.

Addax
03-30-2008, 11:27 AM
I think that a buttpad extension would be the easiest way to add length to the FS2000 vs. messing around with removing the flash hider and adding on an extended muzzle brake. The process of removing the flash hider is a bit more involved than I would want to mess with.

The solution from lanworld offers a barrel shroud that extends over the current barrel and is clamped on, which is also another alternative to extending the length.

Marxdspot, it would be nice to see some concept pics.

The idea is great, but if the extended butt pad looks ugly that will be a turn off.

toolman9000
03-30-2008, 2:21 PM
Sounds like a good idea, I would like to own a FS2000... and maybe someday I will. But in the mean time I would happily purchase one of these seamless stock extenders not only for the 30" OAL legal benefit but I am 6'3" and would like the added LOP.

Put me in for one, you know "just because".

Thanks,
toolman9000

marxdspot
03-30-2008, 2:24 PM
You got it Addax. I'm in the process of getting some CAD pics of the product. It'll take a couple days. I assure you that we will try our very best to match the texture and feel of the existing stock. If I was everyone else I'd want to see pics, too. I do want to note that the the original F2K was molded. We will be machining the shape and sandblasting the surface to give as close of a look and feel of the original FS2K stock. Sorry I don't have pics of it at this time. Hopefully I could get something out soon. Thanks.

I think that a buttpad extension would be the easiest way to add length to the FS2000 vs. messing around with removing the flash hider and adding on an extended muzzle brake. The process of removing the flash hider is a bit more involved than I would want to mess with.

The solution from lanworld offers a barrel shroud that extends over the current barrel and is clamped on, which is also another alternative to extending the length.

Marxdspot, it would be nice to see some concept pics.

The idea is great, but if the extended butt pad looks ugly that will be a turn off.

virulosity
03-30-2008, 2:43 PM
Detachable mags are much, much nicer than a thumb in the hole.

I agree in more ways than one :D

Prince50
03-30-2008, 2:50 PM
It's done already. Not to step on the thread, but I know he has them available. Buttpad extention is another way to go, and would work. The FS2000 has a rubber shroud on the buttpad, that makes it harder to work with than say the FN PS90.

LAN WORLD has them. It uses a longer flash hider and a BULLET-BUTTON style mag lock on the side mag release lever. the button on the bottom has been disabled.

The flash hider slips over the existing unit, and gives the extra length without changing the ergonomics.

I do not know what he charges for the upgrade, but I think he said it was moderate.

Darin

saki302
03-30-2008, 3:34 PM
Removing the stock FH is not all that difficult- it is held in with a blind pin, NOT welded. A 1/16" mill bit eats up the pin easily.

The barrel also removes from the upper assembly with allen wrenches, making it very easy to work on off the rifle (plastic is just a shell).

To be 922r legal, you will obviously have to blind-pin both the adapter AND the new brake in place. Any decent gunsmith can do this in an afternoon, and a good riflesmith can make you an adapter if he has to.

-Dave

tiger222
03-30-2008, 4:12 PM
Marxs ~

I appauld your efforts and would be interested in how you do it ~ however don't forget that the rear buttpad on the FS2000 has to be flexible to get on and off for maintainance of the trigger pack...

if the extender is to be a direct replacement for the factory buttpad, you would have to allow for that function -

xtalpimp
03-30-2008, 5:06 PM
Ill take one if it preserves the function of the rifle

marxdspot
03-30-2008, 5:26 PM
Thanks for the input, guys. I'll make sure to address the flexion of the buttpad. LOL...that kinda sounds funny!:chris:

trinydex
04-08-2008, 3:27 PM
there's no way to just get a slightly longer barrel?

marxdspot
04-08-2008, 5:16 PM
From my understanding, since the FS2K is an import, I believe it's subject to 922r. So if you change the barrel, then you're going to have to round up 10 U.S. made replacement parts. I don't think there are many U.S. parts made for the FS2K. I'm not a lawyer, but this is what I've learned from reading up on legalities. If I'm wrong, please some body correct me.

On the same note, rather than taking more of the gun apart, why not just put the extension and fill in the stock. Abra-Kadabra, no need for any drilling, etc. Everything's just add-ons. The extension should just slide right on and filling in the thumbhole is a piece of cake. If you need help with filling in the thumbhole, I'd recommend getting it done by Calguns one and only, 69mach1. He does a great job. My purpose of creating an extension is to simplify compliance and to be able to provide an extension for length of pull for bigger persons. Hope this helps.

saki302
04-08-2008, 6:22 PM
NO. 922r says you can't have a threaded barrel- you can change the barrel all you want. Or remove the FH, and put a brake on it, just be sure to weld or blind-pin the replacement in place to not violate 922r. You do not have to replace ANY other parts with US made parts.

The factory FH/brake is too close to a flash hider- it won't fly in CA with detachable mags, filled thumbhole or not, so you have to get rid of it anyways if you want detachables.

-Dave

trinydex
04-08-2008, 7:08 PM
From my understanding, since the FS2K is an import, I believe it's subject to 922r. So if you change the barrel, then you're going to have to round up 10 U.S. made replacement parts. I don't think there are many U.S. parts made for the FS2K. I'm not a lawyer, but this is what I've learned from reading up on legalities. If I'm wrong, please some body correct me.

On the same note, rather than taking more of the gun apart, why not just put the extension and fill in the stock. Abra-Kadabra, no need for any drilling, etc. Everything's just add-ons. The extension should just slide right on and filling in the thumbhole is a piece of cake. If you need help with filling in the thumbhole, I'd recommend getting it done by Calguns one and only, 69mach1. He does a great job. My purpose of creating an extension is to simplify compliance and to be able to provide an extension for length of pull for bigger persons. Hope this helps.

i just thought that fn might make them with longer than oal 29.1" barrels.... figures

CriticalDimensions
06-15-2008, 11:11 AM
Greetings California,
The Stock Extensions will soon be available for the FS2000, we've been working closely with Marxdspot to meet the needed requirements, develop and produce the extensions. Watch for more info from Marxdspot on availability and pictures. In addition to the stock extension, a slide-on, pin-in-place barrel sleeve shroud will be offered for the FS2000. The sleeve shroud covers the factory FS2000 flash suppressor and is very similar to those sleeves used on the Yugo SKS's with fixed muzzle grenade launchers sold in CA. In addition we will soon have new Buttstock Extensions and pin-in-place barrel sleeve shrouds for the PS90.
More info coming.
Thanks
Ken, Critical Dimensions LLC

monkey
06-15-2008, 12:20 PM
NO. 922r says you can't have a threaded barrel- you can change the barrel all you want. Or remove the FH, and put a brake on it, just be sure to weld or blind-pin the replacement in place to not violate 922r. You do not have to replace ANY other parts with US made parts.

The factory FH/brake is too close to a flash hider- it won't fly in CA with detachable mags, filled thumbhole or not, so you have to get rid of it anyways if you want detachables.

-Dave

922r says no such thing.

922r prohibits the modification of an imported rifle or shotgun into an unimportable configuration. 922r does not specify what is and is not an importable configuration since it varies from model to model. There's really nothing about the FS2000 that has been modified to make it importable, except for it being a semi-auto. While 922r technically applies to all imported rifles and shotguns, there's really no applicability to the FS2000 specifically since it was approved for importation in almost exactly the same configuration as the F2000. Since there is no unimportable configuration of the FS200, there's really nothing you can do to it that puts you in violation of 922r.

F2000 rifles also use a pin to secure the flash hider. That's not an importation mod. If you want to change the barrel out, feel free, threaded barrel or not. None of it is a violation.

ETA: The pinning of flash hiders is a European thing and has nothing to do with legality. Europeans love their rifle grenades and this ensures there's adequate strength against the pressure. It's also done on the L85A1/A2, FAL, etc.

69Mach1
06-15-2008, 2:45 PM
Greetings California,
The Stock Extensions will soon be available for the FS2000, we've been working closely with Marxdspot to meet the needed requirements, develop and produce the extensions. Watch for more info from Marxdspot on availability and pictures. In addition to the stock extension, a slide-on, pin-in-place barrel sleeve shroud will be offered for the FS2000. The sleeve shroud covers the factory FS2000 flash suppressor and is very similar to those sleeves used on the Yugo SKS's with fixed muzzle grenade launchers sold in CA. In addition we will soon have new Buttstock Extensions and pin-in-place barrel sleeve shrouds for the PS90.
More info coming.
Thanks
Ken, Critical Dimensions LLC

That's great to hear. Thanks.

69Mach1
06-15-2008, 3:11 PM
922r says no such thing.

922r prohibits the modification of an imported rifle or shotgun into an unimportable configuration. 922r does not specify what is and is not an importable configuration since it varies from model to model. There's really nothing about the FS2000 that has been modified to make it importable, except for it being a semi-auto. While 922r technically applies to all imported rifles and shotguns, there's really no applicability to the FS2000 specifically since it was approved for importation in almost exactly the same configuration as the F2000. Since there is no unimportable configuration of the FS200, there's really nothing you can do to it that puts you in violation of 922r.

F2000 rifles also use a pin to secure the flash hider. That's not an importation mod. If you want to change the barrel out, feel free, threaded barrel or not. None of it is a violation.


922r really only deals with the 10 foreign parts requirement. It's actually 925d that relates to importing long guns readily adaptable to sporting purposes. Sporting purposes is defined, although it has changed thoughout the years. One on the non-sporting features is the use of military high capacity magazines, which the FS2000 uses.

I cannot get an answer from FN USA on the topic of what make's the FS2000 and the PS90 importible. I even asked if there were any US parts in them.

922 (r)
The Imported Parts Law(1990)
178.39 otherwise known as 922(r) 10 Foreign parts law on semiauto Rifles & Shotguns
http://www.atf.treas.gov/regulations/27cfr178.html
Sec. 178.39 Assembly of semiautomatic rifles or shotguns.
(a) No person shall assemble a semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun using more than 10 of the imported parts listed in paragraph (c) of this section if the assembled firearm is prohibited from importation under section 925(d)(3) as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes.

monkey
06-16-2008, 10:28 AM
922r really only deals with the 10 foreign parts requirement. It's actually 925d that relates to importing long guns readily adaptable to sporting purposes. Sporting purposes is defined, although it has changed thoughout the years. One on the non-sporting features is the use of military high capacity magazines, which the FS2000 uses.

I cannot get an answer from FN USA on the topic of what make's the FS2000 and the PS90 importible. I even asked if there were any US parts in them.

922 (r)
The Imported Parts Law(1990)
178.39 otherwise known as 922(r) 10 Foreign parts law on semiauto Rifles & Shotguns
http://www.atf.treas.gov/regulations/27cfr178.html
Sec. 178.39 Assembly of semiautomatic rifles or shotguns.
(a) No person shall assemble a semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun using more than 10 of the imported parts listed in paragraph (c) of this section if the assembled firearm is prohibited from importation under section 925(d)(3) as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes.

No, 922r is the legislation we're dealing with when talking about modifying an imported rifle or shotgun into an unimportable configuration. How it is imported is under 925d, what one can do with it after importation is 922r.

922r states in part:

"It shall be unlawful for any person to assemble from imported parts any semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun which is identical to any rifle or shotgun prohibited from importation under section 925(d)(3) of this chapter as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes except that this subsection shall not apply to--
(1) the assembly of any such rifle or shotgun for sale or distribution by a licensed manufacturer to the United States or any department or agency thereof or to any State or any department, agency, or political subdivision thereof; or
(2) the assembly of any such rifle or shotgun for the purposes of testing or experimentation authorized by the Attorney General. "

The "parts count" is also part of 922r and defines an imported firearm based on the parts count.

925d is not an absolute. You'll never learn how FN imports the FS2000, PS90 and will import the SCAR by reading 925d since it specifically gives subjective authority to the AG (ATF Import Branch) to determine importability. "Sporting purposes" is vague for a reason. FN conducted an exhaustive negotiation with ATF over importing the PS90 and the FS2000 and succeeded. Another company making an identical gun would likely not since FN-USA forms the backbone of US military small arms production and FN-USA being allowed to import and sell the FS2000 and PS90 to the civilian market makes the company more solvent and ensures a sound relationship with the DoD. There's a lot of negotiating power in being able to say your company has more DoD small arms contracts than any other. While I cannot prove it, it goes without saying that the authorization to sell the SCAR to civilians played an integral part in negotiating the SOCOM contract. That's how most mil contracts work, opening the market to civilian and foreign buyer (where applicable) allows the per unit price paid by DoD to drop.

what2be
06-16-2008, 1:36 PM
That's great to hear. Thanks.

Yes, great news indeed. Im one of the ones with a ps90 and a fs2000 as well as a msar mtac. After talking to lan world, I decided not to send my stocks in to be modded (side note- very reasonable price for those interested) due to the work involved modifying the stock parts. I want to be able to readily modify the guns back to stock configuration and this wasnt possible with the current mods they use to make it ca legal. I ended up buying a stock extension for the ps90, and am planning on filling the thumbhole up. Im stuck though on how I can find someone that mfg's a muzzle brake for the ps90 so I can still use the detach mags with it. Mabye after I get the muzzle brake for the fs2000 Ill see if I can get it to work with the ps90 as well. The grooves on the flash suppressor are quite a bit different between the two, so im not holding my breath that it will work on both of them.

As far as the fs2000, i bought the addon fake muzzle brake and am filling the thumbhole up on that as well. That one was fairly easy.

Lastly, Lan World said they were making a kit for the msar mtac 5.56 that was hoping to be very modular (ie, easy to revert back to stock) and hopes to have it out soon.

What exactly are people doing to fill the thumbstocks up? I want something sturdy, but still be able to convert back to stock with a minimal amount of effort. Any ideas?

marxdspot
07-06-2008, 9:00 AM
Pics have been added. Please PM me for interest or any questions. For those who have PM'd or email me previously for interest, please resend PM so that I can confirm you're on my buy list. Thanks all!

macshooter
12-04-2008, 7:42 PM
Any updates? My first FS2k gets released from DROS jail on tuesday and this is exactly what I was looking for.

grammaton76
12-04-2008, 7:51 PM
The factory FH/brake is too close to a flash hider- it won't fly in CA with detachable mags, filled thumbhole or not, so you have to get rid of it anyways if you want detachables.

AMEN... someone "gets it"!

I scanned in a page from my FS2000's owner manual specifically to end all this wishful thinking that folks have about trying to say it's not an FH... the owner's manual calls it an FH, it's a FH, even if it's also a brake.

http://thegunwiki.com/pub/Gunwiki/LegalCaliforniaPS90andFS2000/fs2000p16.jpg

Further complicating things, we don't even have a 922(r) parts count for the FS2000 or PS90, that I've seen, so it's kinda tough to tell how many foreign parts would have to be replaced in order to run it with a threaded muzzle.

Hungarian_Legionnaire
11-18-2010, 2:48 AM
...It's almost been 3 years since this "FS2000 Buttstock extension" was "almost ready", anything happen with this ? Is there a .05" longer Buttstock anywhere for the FS2K to make it exactly 30" ?

Hungarian_Legionnaire
11-19-2010, 4:00 AM
AMEN... someone "gets it"!

I scanned in a page from my FS2000's owner manual specifically to end all this wishful thinking that folks have about trying to say it's not an FH... the owner's manual calls it an FH, it's a FH, even if it's also a brake.

http://thegunwiki.com/pub/Gunwiki/LegalCaliforniaPS90andFS2000/fs2000p16.jpg

Further complicating things, we don't even have a 922(r) parts count for the FS2000 or PS90, that I've seen, so it's kinda tough to tell how many foreign parts would have to be replaced in order to run it with a threaded muzzle.

Not True, my 2010 FN FS2000 Tactical Owner's Manual, & The FNHUSA "2010 Commercial Product Catalog", clearly says "Ported MUZZLE BREAK". Check it out for your self, page 46 "Carbines", call FNH (703) 288-1292, Order a catalog or ask them your self, It's a pined-in-place "PORTED MUZZLE BREAK" with a threaded barrel. :)

grammaton76
11-19-2010, 3:13 PM
Not True, my 2010 FN FS2000 Tactical Owner's Manual, & The FNHUSA "2010 Commercial Product Catalog", clearly says "Ported MUZZLE BREAK". Check it out for your self, page 46 "Carbines", call FNH (703) 288-1292, Order a catalog or ask them your self, It's a pined-in-place "PORTED MUZZLE BREAK" with a threaded barrel. :)

The FS2000 owner's manual differs from your OPINION, and that's all that matters. Read.

http://thegunwiki.com/pub/Gunwiki/LegalCaliforniaPS90andFS2000/fs2000p16.jpg

It doesn't matter if they now call it a brake somewhere (particularly if it's just a CATALOG!). It's been called an FH in at least one official place from FN, and THAT is all they need. PERIOD.

Hungarian_Legionnaire
11-28-2010, 6:39 PM
The FS2000 owner's manual differs from your OPINION, and that's all that matters. Read.

http://thegunwiki.com/pub/Gunwiki/LegalCaliforniaPS90andFS2000/fs2000p16.jpg

It doesn't matter if they now call it a brake somewhere (particularly if it's just a CATALOG!). It's been called an FH in at least one official place from FN, and THAT is all they need. PERIOD.

DO you have selective reading ? How old is your Operator's Manual ? Like I said before:
"My 2010 FN FS2000 Tactical Operator's Manual, & The FNHUSA "2010 Commercial Product Catalog", CLEARLY says "Ported MUZZLE BREAK". Check it out for your self, page 46 "Carbines", Call for YOUR SELF, I provided FNH USA's Phone Number (703) 288-1292, Order a catalog & ask them your self while your at it,
It's a Pined-In-Place "PORTED MUZZLE BREAK" With a Threaded Barrel"

Merc1138
11-28-2010, 7:23 PM
DO you have selective reading ? How old is your Operator's Manual ? Like I said before:
"My 2010 FN FS2000 Tactical Operator's Manual, & The FNHUSA "2010 Commercial Product Catalog", CLEARLY says "Ported MUZZLE BREAK". Check it out for your self, page 46 "Carbines", Call for YOUR SELF, I provided FNH USA's Phone Number (703) 288-1292, Order a catalog & ask them your self while your at it,
It's a Pined-In-Place "PORTED MUZZLE BREAK" With a Threaded Barrel"

Apparently you're the one with a selective reading problem. It doesn't matter that FNs catalog now calls it a brake(not break, why is this so difficult for people... it's worse than clip/magazine), it was originally designated as a flash hider. So unless they physically changed it, that's what it's going to get called in court.

Roccobro
11-28-2010, 7:54 PM
Who's to say they haven't changed it along with the change in the literature?

Anyone want to post up a pic of a 2010 Tactical model, and that of the earlier FH design?

Simmer down people. I'm the only one here that supposed to be a jerk! ;)

Justin

Hungarian_Legionnaire
11-28-2010, 8:33 PM
Apparently you're the one with a selective reading problem. It doesn't matter that FNs catalog now calls it a brake(not break, why is this so difficult for people... it's worse than clip/magazine), it was originally designated as a flash hider. So unless they physically changed it, that's what it's going to get called in court.

I don't understand why you have to say Catalog first, and not even mention the Operator's Manual, Do you have some inclination to just be right ? It's not like I'm talking about "Hearsay", they are proven facts From The Operator's Manual, The Catalog & FNH USA them self...They may have changed it. I doubt they would just out of the blue re name a part to a well established bullpup rifle, without actually changing the physical part. Instead of arguing with me, call FNH USA tomorrow & argue with them about the change of a part on their weapon.

Hungarian_Legionnaire
11-28-2010, 8:37 PM
Has this threads product ever been made ? I bought an FN FS2000 in Arizona & bought the Raddlock before I moved here, but it's like 0.5'' too short, anyone know where to get an aftermarket Buttstock extension ?

Merc1138
11-28-2010, 11:40 PM
I don't understand why you have to say Catalog first, and not even mention the Operator's Manual, Do you have some inclination to just be right ? It's not like I'm talking about "Hearsay", they are proven facts From The Operator's Manual, The Catalog & FNH USA them self...They may have changed it. I doubt they would just out of the blue re name a part to a well established bullpup rifle, without actually changing the physical part. Instead of arguing with me, call FNH USA tomorrow & argue with them about the change of a part on their weapon.

If you're so adamant to prove a point, why don't you just give us some pictures showing the difference if you think there is one? I'm going by what FN has called the part in the past in their own documentation. I don't care what YOU think about it, what matters is what it ends up getting called in the courtroom if you end up in trouble over it, which is why anyone is even concerned in the first place.

grammaton76
11-29-2010, 4:30 PM
DO you have selective reading ? How old is your Operator's Manual ? Like I said before:
"My 2010 FN FS2000 Tactical Operator's Manual, & The FNHUSA "2010 Commercial Product Catalog", CLEARLY says "Ported MUZZLE BREAK". Check it out for your self, page 46 "Carbines", Call for YOUR SELF, I provided FNH USA's Phone Number (703) 288-1292, Order a catalog & ask them your self while your at it,
It's a Pined-In-Place "PORTED MUZZLE BREAK" With a Threaded Barrel"

Unless your FS2000 is vastly different from the FS2000 I own (and the FS2000s I've been selling at the CWS table for the last several years have not appeared to have a different muzzle device), there has not been a change in the design, only in the nomenclature. A muzzle device can be both a brake and FH, as mine is.

However, you're so absolutely determined to call it a brake that you won't consider the probability that FN (which alternated in my own manual between referring to it as a brake and a flash hider!) has simply chosen to call it something else, even though it's the same device. If it was called a flash hider once, it's contaminated. Period.

Provided it's the same device, it is a flash hider in CA no matter what your NEW manual says, because the OLD manual calls it a flash hider! CA uses, among other things, retail packaging and manuals to classify devices as FH's or other muzzle devices. There is absolutely nothing preventing them from, if the design has not changed (and it probably hasn't!), calling yours a flash hider.

Why don't you post a picture of YOUR muzzle device, and I'll post a picture of mine? If they're different, then life is good. But I doubt they will be.

Roccobro
11-29-2010, 6:22 PM
Has this threads product ever been made ? I bought an FN FS2000 in Arizona & bought the Raddlock before I moved here, but it's like 0.5'' too short, anyone know where to get an aftermarket Buttstock extension ?

You might be better off finding a nice attractive (and slightly longer) muzzle break to replace your MB/FH to bring you into compliance two ways.

Justin

Hungarian_Legionnaire
11-30-2010, 7:48 PM
Unless your FS2000 is vastly different from the FS2000 I own (and the FS2000s I've been selling at the CWS table for the last several years have not appeared to have a different muzzle device), there has not been a change in the design, only in the nomenclature. A muzzle device can be both a brake and FH, as mine is.

However, you're so absolutely determined to call it a brake that you won't consider the probability that FN (which alternated in my own manual between referring to it as a brake and a flash hider!) has simply chosen to call it something else, even though it's the same device. If it was called a flash hider once, it's contaminated. Period.

Provided it's the same device, it is a flash hider in CA no matter what your NEW manual says, because the OLD manual calls it a flash hider! CA uses, among other things, retail packaging and manuals to classify devices as FH's or other muzzle devices. There is absolutely nothing preventing them from, if the design has not changed (and it probably hasn't!), calling yours a flash hider.

Why don't you post a picture of YOUR muzzle device, and I'll post a picture of mine? If they're different, then life is good. But I doubt they will be.
IF they did just re name it in both the 2010 Operator's Manual, as well as the FNH USA Consumer Products Catalog, Couldn't CA just change to the updated version ? I mean why would they change the name in the Operator's Manual & Catalog, with out changing the actual idem they renamed ? I'll take a few pics of mine, I have it in CA, with the Raddlock & 30/10 round magazines... And I've never had a problem, I just want to get the Buttstock extensions this thread is about, anyone know if it has ever come out ? Or where I can get one to make my FS2000 like .05" longer.

Hungarian_Legionnaire
11-30-2010, 7:51 PM
You might be better off finding a nice attractive (and slightly longer) muzzle break to replace your MB/FH to bring you into compliance two ways.

Justin

The Muzzle Brake is pinned in place and FN said It would void the warranty if you take out the pin and replace the factory Muzzle Brake with anything else.

Roccobro
11-30-2010, 9:00 PM
Dude, it's a muzzle Brake. If your going to bold the word, I might as well spell it right for the both of us.

And if you have the stock Brake and no butt stock extension, your already in violation of CA law.

Justin

grammaton76
12-01-2010, 11:45 AM
IF they did just re name it in both the 2010 Operator's Manual, as well as the FNH USA Consumer Products Catalog, Couldn't CA just change to the updated version ?

Because that's not the way that prosecutors work. You're in California, and the prosecutor will pick the most favorable description of the device possible for HIS case. Defeating YOUR manual will be as simple as them writing a letter to FNH, to which they will reply saying whether or not it's the same device. If it's unchanged, at that point they're going to say "It's a flash hider" and it will absolutely, slam-dunk, stick. Your only hope at that point is that the judge takes pity on you for an honest mistake and offers an AB2728 reduction, where you still lose your rifle and pay tons of attorney fees.

The most sane thing you can do if you want to be featureless, is install the kydex wrap (presumably you've already done this) and get a gunsmith to remove the pinned FH and install a longer muzzle brake. That'll take care of your overall length.

II mean why would they change the name in the Operator's Manual & Catalog, with out changing the actual idem they renamed ? I'll take a few pics of mine, I have it in CA, with the Raddlock & 30/10 round magazines... And I've never had a problem, I just want to get the Buttstock extensions this thread is about, anyone know if it has ever come out ? Or where I can get one to make my FS2000 like .05" longer.

Waitaminit, are you saying you have the rifle assembled and you DON'T have it extended to 30"? If that's the case, you're already in felony assault weapon territory.

Hungarian_Legionnaire
12-02-2010, 7:05 AM
Dude, it's a muzzle Brake. If your going to bold the word, I might as well spell it right for the both of us.

And if you have the stock Brake and no butt stock extension, your already in violation of CA law.

Justin

True, I WOULD be in violation of CA law if the upper and lower receivers were connected making it a useable firearm, It's that same method as going The OC Gun Show that was on the 28th & 29th, where venders bring in non-compliant firearms and just remove the upper from the lower, or like buying an AK47/ 74 parts kit with no 922R compliant parts... Except I've gone one step further, it has installed the CA Legal RaddLock, and noting but 20/10 round magazines, in it's configuration it's 110% CA legal and if I wanted to make it that 0.5" longer I could put multiple layers of electrical tape on the buttstock, followed by a layer of skateboard grip-tape and it would be exactly 30". I follow the law of where ever I live.:)

Hungarian_Legionnaire
12-02-2010, 7:16 AM
Which is WHY I came to this post in the 1st place, this post is about what ? anyone ? ... It's about a FS2000 Buttstock extensions from 7/6/08, It's 12/2/10 almost 2011 and I thought there MAY have been a break threw in getting a 0.5" piece of thicker rubber, polymer or plastic to fit the FS2000, I've asked multiple times and all you do is try and argue with me, ALL I want to know is if there is a thicker FS2000 Buttstock extensions ? From FN, from this thread, aftermarket, someone's home project they do on the side, I don't know? But that's what I'm looking for if anyone can give me a straight no BS answer to that I'd appreciate it. :)

Hungarian_Legionnaire
12-02-2010, 7:57 AM
Because that's not the way that prosecutors work. You're in California, and the prosecutor will pick the most favorable description of the device possible for HIS case. Defeating YOUR manual will be as simple as them writing a letter to FNH, to which they will reply saying whether or not it's the same device. If it's unchanged, at that point they're going to say "It's a flash hider" and it will absolutely, slam-dunk, stick. Your only hope at that point is that the judge takes pity on you for an honest mistake and offers an AB2728 reduction, where you still lose your rifle and pay tons of attorney fees.

The most sane thing you can do if you want to be featureless, is install the kydex wrap (presumably you've already done this) and get a gunsmith to remove the pinned FH and install a longer muzzle brake. That'll take care of your overall length.



Waitaminit, are you saying you have the rifle assembled and you DON'T have it extended to 30"? If that's the case, you're already in felony assault weapon territory.

Thanks for you help, what muzzle brake would you recommend ? I have my FS2000's upper removed from the lower currently, and I could just order a new Muzzle Brake, and take the upper to a gunsmith and have him remove the pin and replace it with which ever muzzle brake I decide on... And driving around like that is fine because it's not a complete weapon. Like I said, It has the CA Legal RAddLock, 20/10 round mags & I even went as far as to remove the firing pin. Here is a pic of the Pined-In-Place "PORTED MUZZLE BREAK" With a Threaded Barrel"

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d131/civiceg6/FN_FS2000_Black_E1.jpg
My 2010 FS2000's Pined-In-Place "PORTED MUZZLE BREAK" With a Threaded Barrel

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d131/civiceg6/FS2000-Instruction-3.jpg
Raddlock

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d131/civiceg6/FS2000_Raddlock_Side.jpg
Raddlock_Side

Merc1138
12-02-2010, 11:22 AM
They can call it a muzzle brake(are you intentionally spelling it wrong or what?) all they want, but the muzzle device in that picture looks like a flash hider(from that angle anyway, it could have a narrow exit point but you'd need a better picture to see that).

Hungarian_Legionnaire
12-03-2010, 6:35 AM
They can call it a muzzle brake(are you intentionally spelling it wrong or what?) all they want, but the muzzle device in that picture looks like a flash hider(from that angle anyway, it could have a narrow exit point but you'd need a better picture to see that).
That HD picture isn't good enough ? & yes, I was intentionally spelling muzzle brake; Muzzle Break, because it was bothering that other guy who keeps trying to critique everything about anything I post. & what ever seems to bother him, makes me grin :D

But as you can see from the picture the end of my 17.44" barrel with pinned in place ported muzzle brake, has been extended & pinned form the NATO Military version of the F2000 with a 15.75" barrel. The overall length of mine is 29.35" I guess I need to get a punch hammer out that pin and that off the factory ported muzzle brake, & replace it with something a little longer, (but I don't know If the new muzzle brake needs to be drilled & re-pinned ?) Since no one knows the ETA or even if there is any FS2000 Buttstock extension at all, no one can give me a straight answer ? Whats the deal ?

Merc1138
12-03-2010, 9:26 AM
That HD picture isn't good enough ? & yes, I was intentionally spelling muzzle brake; Muzzle Break, because it was bothering that other guy who keeps trying to critique everything about anything I post. & what ever seems to bother him, makes me grin :D

But as you can see from the picture the end of my 17.44" barrel with pinned in place ported muzzle brake, has been extended & pinned form the NATO Military version of the F2000 with a 15.75" barrel. The overall length of mine is 29.35" I guess I need to get a punch hammer out that pin and that off the factory ported muzzle brake, & replace it with something a little longer, (but I don't know If the new muzzle brake needs to be drilled & re-pinned ?) Since no one knows the ETA or even if there is any FS2000 Buttstock extension at all, no one can give me a straight answer ? Whats the deal ?

Intentionally spelling something like a retard isn't funny.

And it doesn't matter what the item is called, in that picture it appears to be a flash hider. Are you aware of the difference between a brake and a flash hider? A flash hider is completely open at the exit point, a brake has an enclosed end. From that picture it looks as if it's wide open, but it may indeed have a smaller diameter exit point just sitting further back. You can keep calling it a muzzle brake all you want, but when the DOJ looks at it and sees a flash hider, you're screwed.

grammaton76
12-03-2010, 3:00 PM
I guess I need to get a punch hammer out that pin and that off the factory ported muzzle brake, & replace it with something a little longer, (but I don't know If the new muzzle brake needs to be drilled & re-pinned ?) Since no one knows the ETA or even if there is any FS2000 Buttstock extension at all, no one can give me a straight answer ? Whats the deal ?

Look for a pin hole on the other side - you probably won't find one for the pin to go out of.

Typically the FN muzzle devices are blind pinned - that is to say, there's no other side of the hole, and the only way to get the pin out is drilling.

The reason you would re-pin the other device is because a threaded barrel will generally render the FS2000 unsuitable for importation under 922(r). Of course, if they're making some parts in the US, they may have had to pin their foreign muzzle device on in order to reduce the parts count by one. Attachments are 1 part, then barrel is another - but a permanently mounted attachment is counted as part of the barrel. This is also why Century Arms will sometimes spot-weld muzzle devices onto their rifles' barrels.

You may find this to be interesting reading:
http://gunwiki.net/Gunwiki/LegalFederal922rFeatures

Hungarian_Legionnaire
12-03-2010, 8:38 PM
Intentionally spelling something like a retard isn't funny.

And it doesn't matter what the item is called, in that picture it appears to be a flash hider. Are you aware of the difference between a brake and a flash hider? A flash hider is completely open at the exit point, a brake has an enclosed end. From that picture it looks as if it's wide open, but it may indeed have a smaller diameter exit point just sitting further back. You can keep calling it a muzzle brake all you want, but when the DOJ looks at it and sees a flash hider, you're screwed.

No, I don't know what a muzzle brake or a flash hider is, I havent learn anything about firearms and or accessories since having my first gun at age 8. Then serving France for the 5 years I spent in the French Foreign Legion, serving with NATO in my two deployments to Afganistan fighting along side US troops whale in the Coalition... Haven't learned anything, maybe you can teach me ?

If you look at the picture you'll notice that the muzzle brake is ported on the TOP with four ports & the BOTTOM dosen't have ANY ports, & it's obviously angled from being longer at the un-ported bottom and shorted at the ported top, forcing gasses out the muzzle brake and up threw the four ports at the TOP of the break, hence: Countering both recoil of the gun and unwanted rising of the barrel during fire, where NO gasses can escape threw the BOTTOM of the brake. Which If you knew anything about muzzle devices, a FLASH HIDER is ported the full circumference of the device, reducing the Flash signature, the "device" on the end of my FS2000 does NOT suppress ANY flash, when it's dusk you can see fireballs and sparks coming out of the end of the barrel, I simply have a ported compensatory.

In general the opening on a flash hider is much larger than the diameter of the bullet. In general a muzzle brake the opening is just big enough for the bullet to fit through

I called FNH USA & they informed me that the FS2000's Muzzle Brake is recognizes it as a muzzle brake by BATFE, I also got them to mail me a letter from them stating the device on the end of my barrel is actually a muzzle brake. Buy I'm SURE some of you know more than the parts manufacture, or BATFE, It really can't get anymore clear than that, I don't mind changing it out for a longer muzzle brake to make it 30." I just don't know if I have to pin the new MB in place, does anyone know ?

Reductio
12-03-2010, 8:47 PM
If you look at the picture you'll notice that the muzzle brake is ported on the TOP with four ports & the BOTTOM dosen't have ANY ports, & it's obviously angled from being longer at the un-ported bottom and shorted at the ported top, forcing gasses out the muzzle brake and up threw the four ports at the TOP of the break, hence: Countering both recoil of the gun and unwanted rising of the barrel during fire, where NO gasses can escape threw the BOTTOM of the brake. Which If you knew anything about muzzle devices, a FLASH HIDER is ported the full circumference of the device, reducing the Flash signature, the "device" on the end of my FS2000 does NOT suppress ANY flash, when it's dusk you can see fireballs and sparks coming out of the end of the barrel, I simply have a ported compensatory. ?

Ever played with an A2 style AR-15 flash hider?

Hungarian_Legionnaire
12-03-2010, 8:50 PM
Look for a pin hole on the other side - you probably won't find one for the pin to go out of.

Typically the FN muzzle devices are blind pinned - that is to say, there's no other side of the hole, and the only way to get the pin out is drilling.

The reason you would re-pin the other device is because a threaded barrel will generally render the FS2000 unsuitable for importation under 922(r). Of course, if they're making some parts in the US, they may have had to pin their foreign muzzle device on in order to reduce the parts count by one. Attachments are 1 part, then barrel is another - but a permanently mounted attachment is counted as part of the barrel. This is also why Century Arms will sometimes spot-weld muzzle devices onto their rifles' barrels.

You may find this to be interesting reading:
http://gunwiki.net/Gunwiki/LegalFederal922rFeatures

You correct that the pinned-in-place ported muzzle brake is only pinned-in on the right side, it's a short pin, as to not go protruding in to the barrel which would cause a catastrophic failure if it were shot with a full length pin, If I were to buy a new longer US made muzzle brake, would I need to tap the new brake and re pin it ? or is just installing it fine ? only thing I would be worried about is the brake coming loose with out being pinned in place, and causing it to cant to the right or left and have a fired round hit or nick it, more than likely ruining the brake and possibly bending or stripping the threads on the barrel. Has anyone replaced the standard muzzle brake on their FS2000 ? and was there any problems ?

AlexDD
12-03-2010, 9:01 PM
This may help regarding problems removing your muzzle device. I am pretty sure he is also a member here.

http://fnforum.net/illustrated-guide-to-removing-fs2000-flash-hider-dimensions-t13384.html

AlexDD
12-03-2010, 9:12 PM
Ps I am also wondering if you cut the top portion of the factory brake/hider off would it still. Be considered a flash hider since it would no longer have the slots or supposed flash reducing capabilities.

That would still leaved pinned with no threads per say. You could have the thumbhole filled by Mach1 then figure out a way to attach some type of length to the back of the stock or portion thereof.

IIR There are a couple of threads here dealing with weapon length questions by extending with other means.

AlexDD
12-03-2010, 9:18 PM
One more thing. These guys do barrel and threading work for the FS2000 including 20 inch barrels. This would also take care of the length problem. Still not sure about 922r but you may want to drop them a line in case they got some type of ruling form ATF since they are already doing the work.

Let me know how it goes.

https://www.hi-desertdog.com/index.php?_a=viewProd&productId=109

Hungarian_Legionnaire
12-03-2010, 9:45 PM
Ever played with an A2 style AR-15 flash hider?
I think my Robinson Armament XCR comes with an A-2 style muzzle brake. Here are a few pics, is it the same ?
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d131/civiceg6/XCRRightSIdeMBPorts.jpg Five Slotted Muzzle Brake
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d131/civiceg6/XCRLeftSideMB.jpg Ported On The Top But NOT THE BOTTOM
BY THE WAY, THIS IS THE EXACT SAME STYLE AS MY FS2000 MUZZLE BRAKE

Merc1138
12-03-2010, 9:46 PM
If you look at the picture you'll notice that the muzzle brake is ported on the TOP with four ports & the BOTTOM dosen't have ANY ports, & it's obviously angled from being longer at the un-ported bottom and shorted at the ported top, forcing gasses out the muzzle brake and up threw the four ports at the TOP of the break, hence: Countering both recoil of the gun and unwanted rising of the barrel during fire, where NO gasses can escape threw the BOTTOM of the brake. Which If you knew anything about muzzle devices, a FLASH HIDER is ported the full circumference of the device, reducing the Flash signature, the "device" on the end of my FS2000 does NOT suppress ANY flash, when it's dusk you can see fireballs and sparks coming out of the end of the barrel, I simply have a ported compensatory.

So you apparently don't know the difference between a flash hider and a muzzle brake. An AR-15 flash hider is not ported at the bottom, it has absolutely NOTHING to do with the location of the porting on the sides of the device.

The difference between a brake and a flash hider has everything to do with the exit diameter of the device AFTER the porting. If you can stick anything in the end of that muzzle device on the fs2000 that is larger than the diameter of the round, and see it through the porting in the side, it is a flash hider. You can keep calling it a brake or a "ported compensatory"(a ported compensatory what?) or a backscratcher, it doesn't change what the DOJ will call it in court based on the design difference between a brake and a flash hider.

Flash hiders that are designed to be indexed when mounted so there is no porting at the 6 o'clock position, is to minimize kicking crap up from the ground and obscuring the shooter's view when firing from the prone position. That has nothing to do with it being a brake.

Merc1138
12-03-2010, 9:46 PM
I think my Robinson Armament XCR comes with an A-2 style muzzle brake. Here are a few pics, is it the same ?
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d131/civiceg6/XCRRightSIdeMBPorts.jpg Five Slotted Muzzle Brake
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d131/civiceg6/XCRLeftSideMB.jpg Ported On The Top But NOT THE BOTTOM

That's a flash hider, not a brake. Are you just trolling now?

ETA: Read my explanation above that I posted at the same time you posted your pics of your A2 flash hider. If you seriously believe what you have is a brake, you're probably just waiting to get charged with felonies.

http://www.robarm.com/XCR_Specifications.htm

Hell, it even calls it a flash hider on it's specification page, because it IS an m16a2 flash hider, not a brake.

Hungarian_Legionnaire
12-03-2010, 9:53 PM
2010 FNH FS2000's parts list:
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d131/civiceg6/FS2000PortedMuzzleBrake.jpg
Note: The "Ported Muzzle Brake":)

Reductio
12-03-2010, 9:57 PM
I think my Robinson Armament XCR comes with an A-2 style muzzle brake. Here are a few pics, is it the same ?
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d131/civiceg6/XCRRightSIdeMBPorts.jpg Five Slotted Muzzle Brake
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d131/civiceg6/XCRLeftSideMB.jpg Ported On The Top But NOT THE BOTTOM
BY THE WAY, THIS IS THE EXACT SAME STYLE AS MY FS2000 MUZZLE BRAKE

:dots: Even down to the wide-open front without a baffle... seriously man?

q-4hlP5oz_o

Merc1138
12-03-2010, 10:00 PM
2010 FNH FS2000's parts list:
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d131/civiceg6/FS2000PortedMuzzleBrake.jpg
Note: The "Ported Muzzle Brake":)

Like I said, they can call it a backscratcher if they want, if there is no baffle after the porting in it, that is a flash hider. The baffle is what defines the difference, not what the company marketing department decides to call it.

Here are pictures of 2 products by YHM. Notice the difference in the opening of the end.
This is a brake
http://blackrifleworks.com/images/YHM-28-5M1.jpg
This is the flash hider version of that same product
http://media.midwayusa.com/ProductImages/Large/965594.jpg

Do you finally understand?

Hungarian_Legionnaire
12-04-2010, 2:11 AM
Like I said, they can call it a backscratcher if they want, if there is no baffle after the porting in it, that is a flash hider. The baffle is what defines the difference, not what the company marketing department decides to call it.

Here are pictures of 2 products by YHM. Notice the difference in the opening of the end.
This is a brake
http://blackrifleworks.com/images/YHM-28-5M1.jpg
This is the flash hider version of that same product
http://media.midwayusa.com/ProductImages/Large/965594.jpg

Do you finally understand?
So it can have as many ports around the circumference of the muzzle "device" as long as the opening at the end is only wide enough for what ever caliber it's chambered in to pass threw, (It's a muzzle brake), but if there is excess room for the round to have excess play in the exit of the port then (it's a Flash Hider) I understand, but I don't understand why FNH USA would call their muzzle device a "muzzle brake", when it's a "flash hider" ? :confused:

Reductio
12-04-2010, 2:14 AM
So it can have as many ports around the circumference of the muzzle "device" as long as the opening at the end is only wide enough for what ever caliber it's chambered in to pass threw, (It's a muzzle brake), but if there is excess room for the round to have excess play in the exit of the port then (it's a Flash Hider) I understand, but I don't understand why FNH USA would call their muzzle device a "muzzle brake", when it's a "flash hider" ? :confused:

Brake: a device which reduces recoil.

Flash hider: a device which reduces flash.

Some devices, such as the one in question, can do both. The second it reduces any flash, it's defined by california as a flash hider. FNH is trying to stress the recoil aspect, which I personally care about much more than the muzzle flash of weapon with this chambering.

Hungarian_Legionnaire
12-04-2010, 2:19 AM
:dots: Even down to the wide-open front without a baffle... seriously man?

q-4hlP5oz_o

I didn't know that it was spastically down to the baffle, I just need to get a muzzle brake, where the baffle is only large enough for the 5.56 round to pass threw, because there is a little play on the FS2000's muzzle "whatever", anyone have any suggestions of a effective clean looking muzzle brake, that is long enough to make my FS2000 30" ? I know the 5.56/ .223 round doesn't kick, but I like effective muzzle brakes to do their job if there on the end of my barrel.

Hungarian_Legionnaire
12-04-2010, 2:23 AM
Brake: a device which reduces recoil.

Flash hider: a device which reduces flash.

Some devices, such as the one in question, can do both. The second it reduces any flash, it's defined by california as a flash hider. FNH is trying to stress the recoil aspect, which I personally care about much more than the muzzle flash of weapon with this chambering.

I could care less about a "flash supressor", I don't care about the flash signature my rifle gives off, but I do care about braking the muzzle rise during rapid fire to get back on target more effectively. I've never wanted a "flash supressor" or saw the need for one in civilian use, I completely agree.

Hungarian_Legionnaire
12-04-2010, 2:27 AM
What are some popular muzzle brakes people have swapped the FNH factory muzzle "whatever" out for breaking the rise and recoil of the FN FS2000, as well to make it 30" ?

Hungarian_Legionnaire
12-04-2010, 2:40 AM
That's a flash hider, not a brake. Are you just trolling now?

ETA: Read my explanation above that I posted at the same time you posted your pics of your A2 flash hider. If you seriously believe what you have is a brake, you're probably just waiting to get charged with felonies.

http://www.robarm.com/XCR_Specifications.htm

Hell, it even calls it a flash hider on it's specification page, because it IS an m16a2 flash hider, not a brake.

I bought the RA XCR-L CA State Modle, which is LEGAL in CA, It's Suppose to have: Fixed Stocks, Muzzle Brakes (permanently attached), Low Capacity Magazines and Bullet Button... But for some reason my EVIL muzzle device, that when put on makes the gun kill more people, and do more bad things than with it premaritally attached. Apparently wasn't premaritally attached, but it had everything else squared away. & if they will sell a firearm in this state, with a flash hider, why would it matter if it were premaritally attached, or removable, if it's an evil naughty feature why have it on the gun coming to CA @ all ? :confused:

freonr22
12-04-2010, 2:50 AM
a little off topic, anyone ever weld a washer in their flash hider to make it a muzzle brake

Merc1138
12-04-2010, 2:51 AM
So it can have as many ports around the circumference of the muzzle "device" as long as the opening at the end is only wide enough for what ever caliber it's chambered in to pass threw, (It's a muzzle brake), but if there is excess room for the round to have excess play in the exit of the port then (it's a Flash Hider) I understand, but I don't understand why FNH USA would call their muzzle device a "muzzle brake", when it's a "flash hider" ? :confused:

YES! You finally understand.

FNH calls it that because of marketing. If it offers even the slightest bit of recoil reducing capability, they can call it a brake, there's no law saying they can't. However what is important, is how a flash hider is defined.

Now that you've grasped the difference, the reasoning for it comes down to airflow. The idea of a muzzle brake is to re-direct gas in some other direction to dampen the recoil. This is accomplished with porting. However that final baffle is what directs more gas through the porting in whatever direction they've made it to go. This is why some muzzle brakes cause a concussive effect to the sides of the shooter, because the blast is getting re-directed.

I'm no expert on the physics of why a flash hider works, but the basic idea as I understand it, is to have the ability to pull in air faster behind the round as it leaves the muzzle, to cool any powder that's still burning(and is no longer propelling the round at this point). I'm sure some expert in gas/fluid dynamics or whatever can explain it better, but regardless if it can also be a brake, being a flash hider at the same time is the problem in this state.

Yes, California is THAT ridiculous. The people that wrote the laws here assumed that anything that can suppress the muzzle flash must be capable of murdering babies from 100 miles away in the cover of absolute darkness giving the shooter ninja-like stealth ability.

What I would suggest you do, is measure the length of the muzzle device on your FS2000, and then post it here. That way if anyone knows of one that's longer, it should meet your needs, rather than people who don't have an FS2000 being left to guess. Not a lot of people own FS2000's, and usually the only muzzle devices I've seen that are specifically made to be long, are like the 5" flash suppressors(so people can use shorter barrels and still have a 16" barrel to meet the federal requirement), or fake "cans"(sound suppressors) which are nothing more than a big barrel extension.

Merc1138
12-04-2010, 2:56 AM
I bought the RA XCR-L CA State Modle, which is LEGAL in CA, It's Suppose to have: Fixed Stocks, Muzzle Brakes (permanently attached), Low Capacity Magazines and Bullet Button... But for some reason my EVIL muzzle device, that when put on makes the gun kill more people, and do more bad things than with it premaritally attached. Apparently wasn't premaritally attached, but it had everything else squared away. & if they will sell a firearm in this state, with a flash hider, why would it matter if it were premaritally attached, or removable, if it's an evil naughty feature why have it on the gun coming to CA @ all ? :confused:

Your XCR can have a flash hider because it has the BB installed. It's the BB that lets you use "evil features". So if you had any of the "evil features"(collapsible stock, pistol grip, vertical foregrip, or flash hider) on a rifle with a detachable mag(meaning no bullet button or mag lock), you'd be in possession of an assault weapon and if unregistered is a felony.

As far as being removable or not, that's because of the federal 16" barrel length restriction(or 30" CA overall length restriction). If the muzzle device is removable(not welded or pinned in place), it does not count in the measurement.

Say you had a 16" barrel on an AR. You can have a removable muzzle device, no big deal. However if your barrel was only 14.5", then you'd need a pinned/welded muzzle device at least 1.5" long to meet that requirement(unless your state doesn't care and you get the $200 NFA tax stamp to go with it, which does you no good in California). And yes, the laws are indeed stupid and ridiculous, however we're stuck following them.

Roccobro
12-04-2010, 10:21 AM
Go get 'em Merc. Only took seven posts from you for this person to admit they were wrong and see what we were *trying* to explain. One a Moderator even. :rolleyes:

I guess this necro thread can live with all the OT posts as it was dead to begin with!

Justin

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