Assuming AB2062 passes.. gunsmith issue

[Monkeystein]

I wanted to talk about what I see as something a bit odd regarding gunsmiths in AB2062. (I'm assuming it will pass, if not this year then in the near future.)

First off, I am a CA lawyer.

I've read the bill a couple of times. Tell me what you think of this............

First, it says that

(3) The department shall issue [vendor] licenses pursuant to this section to the following applicants:
(A) Persons licensed pursuant to Section 12071.
(B) A person who is on the centralized list maintained by the
department pursuant to Section 12083.
(C) A target facility which holds a business or regulatory
license.
(D) Commercial hunting clubs, game bird clubs, or pheasant clubs
licensed by the Department of Fish and Game.
(E) Gunsmiths.
(F) Wholesalers.
[etc]


Fine, so a gunsmith can get an ammo vendor license.

Later it says

(d) (1) Paragraphs (3), (7) and (8) of subdivision (c) shall not
apply to or affect sales or transfer of handgun ammunition by
licensed handgun ammunition vendors to any of the following:
[...]
(B) A licensed handgun ammunition vendor properly identified as
such.
[...]
(D) A target facility which holds a business or regulatory license
properly identified as such.
(E) Commercial hunting clubs, game bird clubs, or pheasant clubs
licensed by the Department of Fish and Game, properly identified as
such.
(F) Gunsmiths, properly identified as such.
(G) Wholesalers properly identified as such.
[...]

Ok so gunsmiths, "properly identified as such" are exempt from parts 3, 7 and 8. Fine. Here's what they're exempted from exactly....

Part 3 mandates that by July 2009 everyone has to show ID and thumbprint to buy ammo.
Part 7 mandates that by 2011 everyone needs an ammo purchase permit to buy ammo.
Part 8 mandates that by 2011 all out-of-staters without ammo purchase permits must have a background check done to buy ammo.

Now, my question is this: Does the gunsmith have to have a vendor's license to be exempted from those parts?

The bill says that gunsmith can apply and be issued a vendor's license. Then it says that gunsmiths are exempted from the crappy parts of the law. I'm not seeing the part that says "gunsmiths with a vendors licence are exempt." Does the phrase "properly identified as such" constitute that?

And if only gunsmiths with the vendor license are exempt, why doesn't the bill just say "only those with a vendor license are exempted from Parts 3, 7 and 8"? Why would they bother listing every type of entity?

And furthermore, the law says already in Part (d)(1)(B) that "A licensed handgun ammunition vendor properly identified as such," is exempt, followed by "Gunsmiths, properly identified as such," who are also exempt. Inclusio unius, exclusio alterius. If a gunsmith has to have a vendor license to be exempt, why would they be excluded from the "licensed handgun ammunition vendor" exemption?

This seems to indicate that the gunsmith simply has to be a gunsmith to be exempted from the crappy parts of the law, and that the gunsmith does not need to have a vendor license to do so.

What do you think? And if it's the case that all one need be is a gunsmith, how does one "properly identify" oneself as a gunsmith? Is there a CA gunsmith license?

thx

[Pulsar]

There really is no official gunsmith lisence, federally or statewide, or even privately for that matter. There is not even a certification system for gunsmiths. The only thing I could think of that could be used legally are some of diplomas you get for graduating from the gunsmithing schools.

[jamesob]

i thought if the gun had to go in for repairs and stay, the gunsmith had to have a ffl. i might be wrong but i thought i heard that once.

[NeoWeird]

The problem is that gunsmiths are required to take posession of firearms, both in personal and via carrier. Gunsmiths have to have a Federal Firearms License (FFL) to do business. There may be a small handful of people who work on guns without an FFL, but they can not take the guns and usually don't have shops but work out of their garage/home minimal hours and are usually referal only.

So t's not really saying anything extra, just listing other 'vendor' possabiities of people with an FFL who can apply, not just people in sales.

[Monkeystein]

are you sure?

[mymonkeyman]

I'm sure that the law, if enacted will be interpreted to require the gunsmiths to have FFLs, probably via implementing regulations rather than just interpretive guidelines. I'm pretty sure a regulation is needed to explain the "properly identified as such."

Secondly, it only exempts gunsmiths from (3), (7), and (8) when it is a sale or transfer of handgun ammunition by licensed handgun ammunition vendors to the gunsmith. So it will still prevent "gunsmiths" from receiving ammunition online, which is probably the most harmful part of the bill.

Edit: The DOJ already has "gunsmith" on the COE so it is likely to interpret (d) as essentially an exception for those organizations that have a COE.

[Monkeystein]

what's with all the monkeys on calguns

[C.G.]

what's with all the monkeys on calguns

Yeah, now there is a possibility I could have two monkeys on my back on Calguns.:D

are you sure?

Yes, Randall of AR15barrels does not have an FFL.

[Addax]

I believe a Gunsmith who is going to take possesion and work on a gun or registered receiver is required to have a 01 ffl.

If a Gunsmith only works on barrels or say AR uppers and does not require the customers lower receiver then I do not think a ffl is required.



The problem is that gunsmiths are required to take posession of firearms, both in personal and via carrier. Gunsmiths have to have a Federal Firearms License (FFL) to do business. There may be a small handful of people who work on guns without an FFL, but they can not take the guns and usually don't have shops but work out of their garage/home minimal hours and are usually referal only.

So t's not really saying anything extra, just listing other 'vendor' possabiities of people with an FFL who can apply, not just people in sales.

[hoffmang]

Don't most smiths just get an 07 FFL?

-Gene

[KenpoProfessor]

I wanted to talk about what I see as something a bit odd regarding gunsmiths in AB2062. (I'm assuming it will pass, if not this year then in the near future.)

First off, I am a CA lawyer.

I've read the bill a couple of times. Tell me what you think of this............

First, it says that

(3) The department shall issue [vendor] licenses pursuant to this section to the following applicants:
(A) Persons licensed pursuant to Section 12071.
(B) A person who is on the centralized list maintained by the
department pursuant to Section 12083.
(C) A target facility which holds a business or regulatory
license.
(D) Commercial hunting clubs, game bird clubs, or pheasant clubs
licensed by the Department of Fish and Game.
(E) Gunsmiths.
(F) Wholesalers.
[etc]


Fine, so a gunsmith can get an ammo vendor license.

Later it says

(d) (1) Paragraphs (3), (7) and (8) of subdivision (c) shall not
apply to or affect sales or transfer of handgun ammunition by
licensed handgun ammunition vendors to any of the following:
[...]
(B) A licensed handgun ammunition vendor properly identified as
such.
[...]
(D) A target facility which holds a business or regulatory license
properly identified as such.
(E) Commercial hunting clubs, game bird clubs, or pheasant clubs
licensed by the Department of Fish and Game, properly identified as
such.
(F) Gunsmiths, properly identified as such.
(G) Wholesalers properly identified as such.
[...]

Ok so gunsmiths, "properly identified as such" are exempt from parts 3, 7 and 8. Fine. Here's what they're exempted from exactly....

Part 3 mandates that by July 2009 everyone has to show ID and thumbprint to buy ammo.
Part 7 mandates that by 2011 everyone needs an ammo purchase permit to buy ammo.
Part 8 mandates that by 2011 all out-of-staters without ammo purchase permits must have a background check done to buy ammo.

Now, my question is this: Does the gunsmith have to have a vendor's license to be exempted from those parts?

The bill says that gunsmith can apply and be issued a vendor's license. Then it says that gunsmiths are exempted from the crappy parts of the law. I'm not seeing the part that says "gunsmiths with a vendors licence are exempt." Does the phrase "properly identified as such" constitute that?

And if only gunsmiths with the vendor license are exempt, why doesn't the bill just say "only those with a vendor license are exempted from Parts 3, 7 and 8"? Why would they bother listing every type of entity?

And furthermore, the law says already in Part (d)(1)(B) that "A licensed handgun ammunition vendor properly identified as such," is exempt, followed by "Gunsmiths, properly identified as such," who are also exempt. Inclusio unius, exclusio alterius. If a gunsmith has to have a vendor license to be exempt, why would they be excluded from the "licensed handgun ammunition vendor" exemption?

This seems to indicate that the gunsmith simply has to be a gunsmith to be exempted from the crappy parts of the law, and that the gunsmith does not need to have a vendor license to do so.

What do you think? And if it's the case that all one need be is a gunsmith, how does one "properly identify" oneself as a gunsmith? Is there a CA gunsmith license?

thx

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#i

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde