Open Carry inquiry in Sacramento City

[rue]

So after reading all the open carry stories on here in the last week or so I decided to call my local PD (Sacramento PD) and inquire about open carry in my city before I do it.
The lady that answered at the south sac substation on Freeport asks what I need and I ask to speak with a Duty Captain or someone that's an officer and can answer my question. She asks about what and I tell her I want to open carry in the city and she almost immediately tells me "THAT'S ILLEGAL IN CA.!" I say no I do not believe that's the case and we go back and forth. I say please could I speak to an officer about this. I wait and some officer answers the phone and then says, "wrong line" and I wait some more and the lady comes back on. She tells me now it's no technically illegal but I could be arrested for a 415? I say huh? She then mentions I need to look up PC 12031 and gives me the DA's number and tells me to call them. They of course don't answer the phone to citizens with questions I assume since they don't pick up.
It was priceless to hear some cop behind her read off the 12031 and tell her it's not a good idea for me to open carry. :rolleyes:

Now my question is, "Can you open carry in Sacramento City?" 12031 sounds like a no to me.

[Ironchef]

Disturbing the peace? So openly carrying can be a 415? Impossible. if someone calls in a "man with a gun" and the PD comes to check out this possible 12031, and then you argue or fight or cause any such disturbance, it's still not a 415..it's more like resisting an officer. I can see how they'd want to fabricate a charge and the 415 sounds like the most likely they could get you on considering you caused a panic to someone by wearing a weapon..legal or not.

that would be comical if it happened. stupid lady runnin' her yap.

You ought to write them a certified letter telling the chief to inform his watch commanders of your intent to legally open carry (citing applicable PC and case law), then hit the mall or wherever you'd like to "test" your OC. Obviously map out schools and 1000 foot perimeters so you don't get busted for something illegal. I think this is similar to the approach TBJ suggests. Have this in writing so that they have no excuse..and word it in a way that doesn't put you on their "nutjob" list.

[Liberty1]

She tells me now it's not technically illegal...

Absent an honest discussion of the laws on her part (she was probably a dispatcher) that is the classic LEO way of saying it is not prohibited (aka it's legal).

This also points out the fallacy of asking legal questions of or permission from the police.

If OCing in Sac. pay particular attention to PC 171 c,d,and e.

Now my question is, "Can you open carry in Sacramento City?" 12031 sounds like a no to me.

Read all of this and look up the codes for full comprehension of those laws http://www.paul.net/guns/CaliforniaOpenCarry.pdf There are "State Parks" areas in Sac. and you will want to stay out of those areas.

[rue]

Absent an honest discussion of the laws on her part (she was probably a dispatcher) that is the classic LEO way of saying it is not prohibited (aka it's legal).

This also points out the fallacy of asking legal questions of or permission from the police.

If OCing in Sac. pay particular attention to PC 171 c,d,and e.

Can you just tell me PC 171 c,d and e?
I've been looking up codes for hours over here:D

I see where 10231 is for LOADED weapons right? This doesn't apply for unloaded correct?

[Glock22Fan]

I think this is similar to the approach TBJ suggests.

Well, TBJ works on Concealed Carry and not Open Carry, so we don't have specific suggestions there. However, obviously, whenever you ask something like this it is best to put it in writing, and get a written answer.

Personally, I would also suggest, until Heller and descendants says otherwise, don't mention your 2nd Amendment rights - you don't yet have any in California.

Something like "I understand that there is no specific law that prohibits me from openly carrying an unloaded gun in a peaceable manner and, as I will not be engaged in felonious or gang activity, also having loaded magazine in my possession. Please would you advise me. If this is not the case, please quote relevant Penal Code section(s)."

Maybe a lawyer could phrase this better.

[CitaDeL]

She almost immediately tells me "THAT'S ILLEGAL IN CA.!" She tells me now it's no technically illegal but I could be arrested for a 415? I say huh? She then mentions I need to look up PC 12031 and gives me the DA's number and tells me to call them.

Now my question is, "Can you open carry in Sacramento City?" 12031 sounds like a no to me.

Technically illegal? I think that's kind of like technically pregnant. Did she happen to disclose where she studied law?

And I must say, sending you to the DA was classic. What it tells me is 1) she really didnt know what she was talking about and 2) she didnt want to get in trouble for desiminating information that could be construed as legal advice... She sent you there because the DA wont talk to you AND it got you out of her hair in a way that made it appear like she did everything she could for you.


The answer, albeit from someone who is not a lawyer and not giving advice, is yes- you can lawfully open carry in many places in California- assuming you know what the rest of the rules are.

[rue]

I'm sorry technically it's legal she said followed by, "but you could get arrested for 415 if someone calls us because you're carrying a gun" That makes no sense to me....I didn't know you could be arrested for disturbing the peace while doing nothing illegal.
Should I call them back and ask again? lol
I have a lot of free time on my hands..

[CitaDeL]

I'm sorry technically it's legal she said followed by, "but you could get arrested for 415 if someone calls us because you're carrying a gun" That makes no sense to me....I didn't know you could be arrested for disturbing the peace while doing nothing illegal.
Should I call them back and ask again? lol
I have a lot of free time on my hands..

415. Any of the following persons shall be punished by imprisonment
in the county jail for a period of not more than 90 days, a fine of
not more than four hundred dollars ($400), or both such imprisonment
and fine:
(1) Any person who unlawfully fights in a public place or
challenges another person in a public place to fight.
(2) Any person who maliciously and willfully disturbs another
person by loud and unreasonable noise.
(3) Any person who uses offensive words in a public place which
are inherently likely to provoke an immediate violent reaction.

Brilliant. I think she meant;

417. (a) (1) Every person who, except in self-defense, in the
presence of any other person, draws or exhibits any deadly weapon
whatsoever, other than a firearm, in a rude, angry, or threatening
manner, or who in any manner, unlawfully uses a deadly weapon other
than a firearm in any fight or quarrel is guilty of a misdemeanor,
punishable by imprisonment in a county jail for not less than 30
days.

Same difference. Neither really apply absent any of the elements of a crime.

[Ironchef]

I'm sorry technically it's legal she said followed by, "but you could get arrested for 415 if someone calls us because you're carrying a gun" That makes no sense to me....I didn't know you could be arrested for disturbing the peace while doing nothing illegal.
Should I call them back and ask again? lol
I have a lot of free time on my hands..

Technically, the caller is the one disturbing the peace as described in 415. The one creating the disturbance is any such caller since you are not doing anything illegal. If that were possible, then everytime a nervous white guy called in a car full of black gangstas just driving innocently down the road there'd be 415's all around. I listen to my scanner quite frequently (Antioch is hopin', day and night) and the majority of calls (other than plates and id checks) are for 415's (domestic violence, parties, fighting in public, throwing rocks at cars, threatening store check out clerks or customers at the dollar tree...etc)...if there's ever any dispatch about a gun...it's a code three covered response that results in a very cautious, probably low ready drawn approach. But the 415's are usually noise, verbal or physical fighting...never for an innocent person browsing the aisles at blockbuster.

Brilliant. I think she meant;



Same difference. Neither really apply absent any of the elements of a crime.

True, the brandishing pc. Didn't even think of that, and it makes sense. She may have thought you were going ot be carrying the gun in your hand or something! lol

[Anthonysmanifesto]

this is the same city that advertises a $1K reward just for the arrest ( it doesn't mention conviction) of someone illagally carrying or possession of an illegal gun.

this determination to originate the call seems to be left up to absolutely anyone with a phone and a need for $1000

heck.. I'm might call you in!!!( edit: thats a joke y'all)

http://www.atf.gov/press/2007press/field/020507sf_sacramentoreward_poster.pdf

[Decoligny]

Can you just tell me PC 171 c,d and e?
I've been looking up codes for hours over here:D

I see where 10231 is for LOADED weapons right? This doesn't apply for unloaded correct?

Nutshell version not verbatim from the code but close:
PC 171c - No LOADED firearms in State Capitol, legislative offices, Governor's office, or office of any other constitutional officer, or any Senate or Assembly committee hearing rooms, or on State Capitol grounds, bound by 10th, L, 15th, and N Streets.
PC 171d - Can't carry/possess a LOADED firearm in the Governor's, Legislator's, or anuy other constitutional officer's residences.
PC 171e - LOADED firearm for 171c and 171d is defined as: bothe the firearm and the ammunition for that firearm are in the possession of the same person.

So if you plan of open carrying on the capitol grounds, take a friend and have them carry your magazines. Or bring a friend who carries a diferent caliber firearm and carry each others magazines. You will be "technically" in compliance with the law.

[rue]

Nutshell version not verbatim from the code but close:
PC 171c - No LOADED firearms in State Capitol, legislative offices, Governor's office, or office of any other constitutional officer, or any Senate or Assembly committee hearing rooms, or on State Capitol grounds, bound by 10th, L, 15th, and N Streets.
PC 171d - Can't carry/possess a LOADED firearm in the Governor's, Legislator's, or anuy other constitutional officer's residences.
PC 171e - LOADED firearm for 171c and 171d is defined as: bothe the firearm and the ammunition for that firearm are in the possession of the same person.

So if you plan of open carrying on the capitol grounds, take a friend and have them carry your magazines. Or bring a friend who carries a diferent caliber firearm and carry each others magazines. You will be "technically" in compliance with the law.


So if I carry legally at blockbuster I can keep a loaded mag in my pocket and open carry a auto pistol without a mag? Or a wheel gun without bullets in it but with a speed loader in my pocket full of HP's?

[Liberty1]

So if I carry legally at blockbuster I can keep a loaded mag in my pocket and open carry a auto pistol without a mag? Or a wheel gun without bullets in it but with a speed loader in my pocket full of HP's?

Keep the mag exposed in a mag pouch. Speedloader in the pocket however is clearly no crime. Just to be cautious there is some bad language in a case entitled People vs Hale dealing with concealed mags. It's not binding case law but just to avoid 12025 complications keep them exposed too.

Also any private property owner, manager, business, or peace officer acting on behalf of the former can ask you to leave. Failure to do so is trespassing PC 602.

And if you couldn't find the 171 section keep looking :) http://law.justia.com/california/codes/pen.html

I'm glad to see strong interest in OCing but I hope everyone is becoming familiar enough with the PC and case laws to be able to cite codes from memory. Read those fliers! Carry an audio recorder! Know the laws and Follow the laws! Be safe and CARRY ON!

[Decoligny]

Keep the mag exposed in a mag pouch. Speedloader in the pocket however is clearly no crime. Just to be cautious there is some bad language in a case entitled People vs Hale dealing with concealed mags. It's not binding case law but just to avoid 12025 complications keep them exposed too.

Also any private property owner, manager, business, or peace officer acting on behalf of the former can ask you to leave. Failure to do so is trespassing PC 602.

And if you couldn't find the 171 section keep looking :) http://law.justia.com/california/codes/pen.html

I'm glad to see strong interest in OCing but I hope everyone is becoming familiar enough with the PC and case laws to be able to cite codes from memory. Read those fliers! Carry an audio recorder! Know the laws and Follow the laws! Be safe and CARRY ON!

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/calaw.html is another very good tool. It allows you to do word searches through all of the Californai Codes, not just the Penal Codes.

[CSDGuy]

I also checked the Sacramento CITY codes... the city's codes only prohibit CCW... not open carry. Sacramento does not prohibit CCW either, in their codes, EXCEPT for parks (all dangerous weapons). If you have a valid California CCW, you're exempt because of preemption.

[Army]

You SHOULD have asked if it was legal to open carry an UNLOADED handgun. From your story, you did not specify this.

She is correct in that you cannot legally open carry a loaded firearm.

[Billy Jack]

For you folks that want to test the 'open carry' laws in California let me explain the education you shall receive for doing so.

You may learn the following:

A) How LEOS do a Felony take down

B) Most LEOS have not spent hours on the Internet exchanging misinformation about the legality of open carry and may not understand what you are trying to accomplish.

C) They are trained to treat every firearm as loaded until they have proof to the contrary

D) Seeing a person in civilian clothing carrying provides them with PC to interact with you

E) In some jurisdictions this 'interaction' may start out with "On the ground M***** F***** or Freeze A** H*** or Move a muscle and I make your birth control retroactive' Often it will only go down hill after you hear those words.

F) LEOS have wide discretion under the law as to 415PC and 12031PC

G) Prosecutors may decide later to not file charges against you

H) If you are unable to post bail immediately you may find that other incarcerated persons of the same gender are very lonely and you may remind them of a loved one.

These are but a few of the things that open carry may expose you too. But being this is still America you have an unalienable right to exercise your 'right'.

Having uttered the phrases in "E" and having been prepared to terminated a suspect's life support systems, you have to ask yourself: 'Do you feel lucky citizen? Well do you?'

Reality and posting are not the same thing ladies and gentlemen.

Billy Jack


www.californiaconcealedcarry.com


"When policemen break the law, then there isn't any law...just a fight for survival!"

[CombatMP]

For you folks that want to test the 'open carry' laws in California let me explain the education you shall receive for doing so.

You may learn the following:

A) How LEOS do a Felony take down

B) Most LEOS have not spent hours on the Internet exchanging misinformation about the legality of open carry and may not understand what you are trying to accomplish.

C) They are trained to treat every firearm as loaded until they have proof to the contrary

D) Seeing a person in civilian clothing carrying provides them with PC to interact with you

E) In some jurisdictions this 'interaction' may start out with "On the ground M***** F***** or Freeze A** H*** or Move a muscle and I make your birth control retroactive' Often it will only go down hill after you hear those words.

F) LEOS have wide discretion under the law as to 415PC and 12031PC

G) Prosecutors may decide later to not file charges against you

H) If you are unable to post bail immediately you may find that other incarcerated persons of the same gender are very lonely and you may remind them of a loved one.

These are but a few of the things that open carry may expose you too. But being this is still America you have an unalienable right to exercise your 'right'.

Having uttered the phrases in "E" and having been prepared to terminated a suspect's life support systems, you have to ask yourself: 'Do you feel lucky citizen? Well do you?'

Reality and posting are not the same thing ladies and gentlemen.

Billy Jack


www.californiaconcealedcarry.com


"When policemen break the law, then there isn't any law...just a fight for survival!"



A. is not that bad
B. That's why I'm going to educate them
C. As a law abiding citizen, I also treat all firearms to be loaded.
D. interaction with an LEO is a good thing
E. That's why I carry a tape recorder with me
F. What's new
G. because it's Legal :rolleyes:
H. there's nothing wrong with that, people inside get's lonely:D

In all seriousness, I feel very lucky, in my life I always take changes. That's my reality.

Good Luck, Carry On

[CitaDeL]

Reality and posting are not the same thing ladies and gentlemen.
Billy Jack


Yeah- that's no $h!t right there, Billy Jack.

Billy Jack has come to jumped to conclusions without considering 'reality' of recent events.

This has already gone beyond the mere discussion of the topic and each of the interactions with police that I am aware of, has resulted only in breif detainment and the carriers were free to go. So long as open carry is conducted lawfully and with the proper attitude, I believe this is how it will go down in most cases.

I think Billy Jack sees this action as a threat to licensed concealed carry or the advancement of TBJ's objectives.

[Bizcuits]

So after reading all the open carry stories on here in the last week or so I decided to call my local PD (Sacramento PD) and inquire about open carry in my city before I do it.
The lady that answered at the south sac substation on Freeport asks what I need and I ask to speak with a Duty Captain or someone that's an officer and can answer my question. She asks about what and I tell her I want to open carry in the city and she almost immediately tells me "THAT'S ILLEGAL IN CA.!" I say no I do not believe that's the case and we go back and forth. I say please could I speak to an officer about this. I wait and some officer answers the phone and then says, "wrong line" and I wait some more and the lady comes back on. She tells me now it's no technically illegal but I could be arrested for a 415? I say huh? She then mentions I need to look up PC 12031 and gives me the DA's number and tells me to call them. They of course don't answer the phone to citizens with questions I assume since they don't pick up.
It was priceless to hear some cop behind her read off the 12031 and tell her it's not a good idea for me to open carry. :rolleyes:

Now my question is, "Can you open carry in Sacramento City?" 12031 sounds like a no to me.


Call back at another time.

[Paladin]

FWIW, I'm waiting to see how Heller turns out before considering/advocating pushing things w/unloaded OC.

If things go our way w/Heller, unloaded (or even loaded) OC might be necessary to push Sacto to take us to "Shall Issue." If, somehow, Heller turns out bad, we'll have to continue w/the NRA's low-profile approach for the foreseeable future and pushing things w/unloaded OC might harm our side.

JMO

[Army]

Billy Jack, I can only conclude you are mistaking open LOADED carry, (which is illegal for Joe Blow) with open UNloaded carry (which is fully legal), as is carrying the ammunition for said UNloaded gun upon your person but not attached in any way to the gun.

Your scenario is the extreme, pulled from Hollywood. As many have already testified, interaction with local PD's have been somewhat tense, but certainly not guns-drawn-and-screaming-scripted-one-liners deadly. A calm person, wearing a gun openly, is not enough of a threat to anyone to trigger your reaction.

Once again, in case you missed it: Open carry of an UNLOADED firearm is fully legal in the state of California. Carry of ammunition that fits said carried firearm is also legal to posess, on your person at the same time, as long as the ammunition is NOT attached to the firearm in any manner.

[s2000news]

Billy Jack, I can only conclude you are mistaking open LOADED carry, (which is illegal for Joe Blow) with open UNloaded carry (which is fully legal), as is carrying the ammunition for said UNloaded gun upon your person but not attached in any way to the gun.

Your scenario is the extreme, pulled from Hollywood. As many have already testified, interaction with local PD's have been somewhat tense, but certainly not guns-drawn-and-screaming-scripted-one-liners deadly. A calm person, wearing a gun openly, is not enough of a threat to anyone to trigger your reaction.

Once again, in case you missed it: Open carry of an UNLOADED firearm is fully legal in the state of California. Carry of ammunition that fits said carried firearm is also legal to posess, on your person at the same time, as long as the ammunition is NOT attached to the firearm in any manner.

No, this isn't Hollywood. Its real and everywhere in Cali.

A person has and will be arrested while open unloaded carry of a firearm. Remember, the firearm is just giving reason to (PC) detain the person to ensure the weapon is unloaded. Anything after that is another ball game.

Does the officer have other means of arresting you? Sure, disturbing the peace is a very broad PC. Did your open carry cause a disurbance in the store/street/mens room? If it did, you could be cited or arrested. The open carry isn't always going to be the reason you were arrested or charged with a crime.

And yes, a firearm is presumed loaded until found otherwise. Will I be drawing down on you? Yup, I could. Will it be that way every time, no.

[Decoligny]

No, this isn't Hollywood. Its real and everywhere in Cali.

A person has and will be arrested while open unloaded carry of a firearm. Remember, the firearm is just giving reason to (PC) detain the person to ensure the weapon is unloaded. Anything after that is another ball game.

Does the officer have other means of arresting you? Sure, disturbing the peace is a very broad PC. Did your open carry cause a disurbance in the store/street/mens room? If it did, you could be cited or arrested. The open carry isn't always going to be the reason you were arrested or charged with a crime.

And yes, a firearm is presumed loaded until found otherwise. Will I be drawing down on you? Yup, I could. Will it be that way every time, no.

Another person who doesn't understand reality. Open Carry IS BEING DONE SUCCESSFULLY.

More FUD from someone who has watched to many re-run episodes of Starsky & Hutch but who hasn't even put forth the effort to read what the Penal Code actually says.

CALIFORNIA PENAL CODE SECTION 415. Any of the following persons shall be punished by imprisonment in the county jail for a period of not more than 90 days, a fine of not more than four hundred dollars ($400), or both such imprisonment and fine:

(1) Any person who unlawfully fights in a public place or challenges another person in a public place to fight.

(2) Any person who maliciously and willfully disturbs another person by loud and unreasonable noise.

(3) Any person who uses offensive words in a public place which are inherently likely to provoke an immediate violent reaction.

Disturbing the Peace is a VERY NARROW and well defined offence. If you are fighting, being way too loud, or using offensive language that will incite violence, you are disturbing the peace. Just because some hoplophobic Bradyite gets "disturbed" by a law abiding citizen Open Carrying doesn't make it disturbing the peace.

[CitaDeL]

No, this isn't Hollywood. Its real and everywhere in Cali.

There have been 5 documented incidents of police contact with open carriers in the last six months. None of those involved were drawn down upon. None were arrested or charged with any crime. All were released after a 12031 loaded check and a field interview.

So you will have to forgive those that do not subscribe to the point of view that all open carry will result in guns drawn and arrests made. We are not denying the possibility, however historical evidence has shown responding police have been pretty reasonable in their interaction.

[Billy Jack]

s2000news,

Thanks for the affirmation on my previous post. Those who really want to know about TBJ's objectives can visit
www.californiaconcealedcarry.com and read about the Federal cases we have already filed and those that are pending. You can even read up a little about Billy Jack. I 'have been there and done that'. Something apparently some of the posters will only aspire to.

Want to speculate on the law, get arrested, get a 'jacket' with local LEO, kill any chance of a CCW under a new Chief or Sheriff, 'Go ahead, make my day!'

Billy Jack

"When policemen break the law, then there isn't any law...just a fight for survival!"

[s2000news]

There have been 5 documented incidents of police contact with open carriers in the last six months. None of those involved were drawn down upon. None were arrested or charged with any crime. All were released after a 12031 loaded check and a field interview.

So you will have to forgive those that do not subscribe to the point of view that all open carry will result in guns drawn and arrests made. We are not denying the possibility, however historical evidence has shown responding police have been pretty reasonable in their interaction.

Absolutely. I'm with you. I just love people that quote PC behind a keyboard, yet have no real life experience with the issue. :)

Also - 5? Seems low. Just in my area I can remember about 1 every 2 months or so... I would have expected the 6 month count to be near 20 or 30.

[s2000news]

s2000news,

Thanks for the affirmation on my previous post. Those who really want to know about TBJ's objectives can visit
www.californiaconcealedcarry.com (http://www.californiaconcealedcarry.com) and read about the Federal cases we have already filed and those that are pending. You can even read up a little about Billy Jack. I 'have been there and done that'. Something apparently some of the posters will only aspire to.

Want to speculate on the law, get arrested, get a 'jacket' with local LEO, kill any chance of a CCW under a new Chief or Sheriff, 'Go ahead, make my day!'

Billy Jack

"When policemen break the law, then there isn't any law...just a fight for survival!"

Yeah, shame so many argue with you, instead of learning why someone has a different opinion.

Open carry just never made any sense. You get more bad than good from it anyways. Why be a target? Unless you walk around with a vest on and have some kind of tactical training.... you're just going to get shot from some kid with a loaded illegal concealed gun anyways. When he goes to rob the store you are at, he will see your open carry, put two in your back and move on. He won't ask if it is unloaded or if you are not a LEO.

CCWs would just make things so much better for law abiding people!

[s2000news]

Another person who doesn't understand reality. Open Carry IS BEING DONE SUCCESSFULLY.

More FUD from someone who has watched to many re-run episodes of Starsky & Hutch but who hasn't even put forth the effort to read what the Penal Code actually says.

CALIFORNIA PENAL CODE SECTION 415. Any of the following persons shall be punished by imprisonment in the county jail for a period of not more than 90 days, a fine of not more than four hundred dollars ($400), or both such imprisonment and fine:

(1) Any person who unlawfully fights in a public place or challenges another person in a public place to fight.

(2) Any person who maliciously and willfully disturbs another person by loud and unreasonable noise.

(3) Any person who uses offensive words in a public place which are inherently likely to provoke an immediate violent reaction.

Disturbing the Peace is a VERY NARROW and well defined offence. If you are fighting, being way too loud, or using offensive language that will incite violence, you are disturbing the peace. Just because some hoplophobic Bradyite gets "disturbed" by a law abiding citizen Open Carrying doesn't make it disturbing the peace.

What happens when a guy has a gun? Does everyone file out of the store or parking lot in a civil order, quietly and without running? No, they run, make noise and scream 'HE HAS A GUN'. (sound part) Right or wrong? I don't know.

But you caused it, you can be charged. Did you wear your gun that day with the intention of going in the public view? Yes. Willful.

415.2 PC never made sense with the malicious part. How do you be malicious with sound exactly? Anyways - Broad. Reality at its best.

Reality? I know it well. I have been on the other side of Open Carry before. I never arrested anyone for it. But you don't seem to understand other peoples views on it, only want to cry how its legal and its done. I never said it wasn't legal. I never said it wasn't done before. I never said I didn't support it. Re-read my post.

[WhiteDingo]

What happens when a guy has a gun? Does everyone file out of the store or parking lot in a civil order, quietly and without running? No, they run, make noise and scream 'HE HAS A GUN'. (sound part) Right or wrong? I don't know.


s2000news, I get what you're trying to say, and I understand it, I think. My only issue is the above quoted section. I can understand such a situation occuring when an individual is either brandishing said firearm or displaying it in a threatening manner. It seems to me that the majority of the population in my area (I won't begin to speculate on yours/others locations), upon seeing a holstered firearm, will assume that either a: you are some form of LEO, or b: you have a "liscense" to do so. I have been with other individuals who were carrying, openly and unloaded, and have never had such a reaction while I was present, nor have I had any relayed. I guess it really depends on the local populace though. Inquisitive looks were a norm, and occasional questions, but never such an immediate panicked reaction.

[supersonic]

Yeah- that's no $h!t right there, Billy Jack.

Billy Jack has come to jumped to conclusions without considering 'reality' of recent events.

This has already gone beyond the mere discussion of the topic and each of the interactions with police that I am aware of, has resulted only in breif detainment and the carriers were free to go. So long as open carry is conducted lawfully and with the proper attitude, I believe this is how it will go down in most cases.

I think Billy Jack sees this action as a threat to licensed concealed carry or the advancement of TBJ's objectives.

I agree. I've been OC'ing in Sac for almost a year now, & have had LEO's SEE my holstered pistol with zero incident. As one (probably of many) who was denied TBJ's ("wasted") time in even REVIEWING my GCS (because of where I live), I find it very strange as to why "HE" is even giving this thread ANY attention, not to mention posting in it.:confused: IMO, TBJ's mere presence in this thread is just bad form. Straight up.;)

[supersonic]

Another person who doesn't understand reality. Open Carry IS BEING DONE SUCCESSFULLY.

More FUD from someone who has watched to many re-run episodes of Starsky & Hutch but who hasn't even put forth the effort to read what the Penal Code actually says.

CALIFORNIA PENAL CODE SECTION 415. Any of the following persons shall be punished by imprisonment in the county jail for a period of not more than 90 days, a fine of not more than four hundred dollars ($400), or both such imprisonment and fine:

(1) Any person who unlawfully fights in a public place or challenges another person in a public place to fight.

(2) Any person who maliciously and willfully disturbs another person by loud and unreasonable noise.

(3) Any person who uses offensive words in a public place which are inherently likely to provoke an immediate violent reaction.

Disturbing the Peace is a VERY NARROW and well defined offence. If you are fighting, being way too loud, or using offensive language that will incite violence, you are disturbing the peace. Just because some hoplophobic Bradyite gets "disturbed" by a law abiding citizen Open Carrying doesn't make it disturbing the peace.

+100%, so VERY right!!!:D

[Decoligny]

What happens when a guy has a gun? Does everyone file out of the store or parking lot in a civil order, quietly and without running? No, they run, make noise and scream 'HE HAS A GUN'. (sound part) Right or wrong? I don't know.

But you caused it, you can be charged. Did you wear your gun that day with the intention of going in the public view? Yes. Willful.

415.2 PC never made sense with the malicious part. How do you be malicious with sound exactly? Anyways - Broad. Reality at its best.

Reality? I know it well. I have been on the other side of Open Carry before. I never arrested anyone for it. But you don't seem to understand other peoples views on it, only want to cry how its legal and its done. I never said it wasn't legal. I never said it wasn't done before. I never said I didn't support it. Re-read my post.

Funny how you claim to never having said you don't support it - "Open carry just never made any sense. You get more bad than good from it anyways."
That sound like it has your full backing - NOT.

People don't run screaming. It just doesn't happen that way. I have open carried into my local Pizza place while it was absolutely full of kids and adults from the local soccer league. Nobody paniced, nobody ran screaming. I have open carried into my local convenience store. The other customers didn't run screaming "OH MY GOD HE'S GOT A GUN". They see a peaceful person getting some milk and bread who happens to be carrying a gun. Now I suppose if I kicked the front door open and came in with the gun in my hand and started pointing it around the store, the reaction might be something like you describe.

I have even gone into my local sport's bar (the one that is frequented by all the local Sheriff's Deputies) for a burger with my gun on my hip. If anyone at the bar had a problem, they know where I live, and they could have asked the Deputies to invesitgate. But strange, no reaction.

I will be going up to Sacramento in about two weeks for an Open Carry Dinner. We will be in a group, there will be audio recording at the very least. We hope for an uneventful evening, but if we are contacted by the police, we will be peaceful, polite, patient, and professional. We will almost certainly not end up on the ground with drawn weapons pointing at our heads, but if we do, we will have witnesses and we will have recorded evidence and we will have lawsuits for the uninformed Police Officers who violate our rights.

[FreshTapCoke]

I must fully agree with Decoligny as it corresponds to my experiences open carrying in Metropolitan Los Angeles. I have open carried at chain fast food restaurants, mom-and-pop restaurants, electronics stores, markets, my friend's place of business countless times, and even a crowded Starbucks packed shoulder-to-shoulder with people and only once has anyone engaged me in conversation about the practice of open carrying. (positive)

As already established, disturbing the peace is a set of select violations. Also, after looking up caselaw for brandishing in California, I have only found cases where brandishing was an Additional Lesser Offense -ALO, not a charge by itself because of the necessity to prove intent.

[CitaDeL]

What happens when a guy has a gun? Does everyone file out of the store or parking lot in a civil order, quietly and without running? No, they run, make noise and scream 'HE HAS A GUN'. (sound part) Right or wrong? I don't know.

But you caused it, you can be charged. Did you wear your gun that day with the intention of going in the public view? Yes. Willful.

415.2 PC never made sense with the malicious part. How do you be malicious with sound exactly? Anyways - Broad. Reality at its best.

Reality? I know it well. I have been on the other side of Open Carry before. I never arrested anyone for it. But you don't seem to understand other peoples views on it, only want to cry how its legal and its done. I never said it wasn't legal. I never said it wasn't done before. I never said I didn't support it. Re-read my post.

415. Any of the following persons shall be punished by imprisonment
in the county jail for a period of not more than 90 days, a fine of
not more than four hundred dollars ($400), or both such imprisonment
and fine:
(1) Any person who unlawfully fights in a public place or
challenges another person in a public place to fight.
(2) Any person who maliciously and willfully disturbs another
person by loud and unreasonable noise.
(3) Any person who uses offensive words in a public place which
are inherently likely to provoke an immediate violent reaction.


You can tell me all day that I willfully carried a firearm to disturb another-- and you can have people dialing 911 telling you that the firearm disturbs them-- you can have reporting parties on site screaming and jumping up and down telling you how afraid they are of my holstered firearm. But none of those things are elements of a crime. I think its pretty amusing how you try to warp this PC section to apply to an open carrier because of the 'noise' that others make in your pocket hypothetical.

Seems our discussion is not about legality, but about what people percieve.

While people may percieve a lawfully armed person as a threat, I, as a open carrier am not responsible for others 1) irrational fears, 2) unreasonable reactions, and 3) reporting my lawful behavior to authorities.

It may p!ss off the responding officers that they are on a call that is tantamount to a registration check on a motorist minding their own business, but with exposure will come acceptance and at some point, policies regarding handling reports of a 'man with a gun' will change... as will public opinion about lawfully armed persons.

What we are up against though, is 40 plus years of California gun restriction and media indocrination that tells us only police and bad guys are armed. It is this perception that I am hoping to overturn, and hopefully it wont take 40 more years to get there.

[supersonic]

What happens when a guy has a gun? Does everyone file out of the store or parking lot in a civil order, quietly and without running? No, they run, make noise and scream 'HE HAS A GUN'. (sound part) Right or wrong? I don't know.
INCORRECT. You are/were a LEO and you actually cannot differentiate between OC and actual BRANDISHING??????(You said "has a gun, " just to remind you.) People "run, make noise,and scream........" when some jerk-off is waving the piece around (unholstered), which IS BRANDISHING (which is illegal to do either way, even for CCW holders). - So, don't tell me to "stay on topic" when what I am saying DIRECTLY RELATES to your GENERALIZATION & MISLEADING use of words.;)
But you caused it, you can be charged. Did you wear your gun that day with the intention of going in the public view? Yes. Willful.
Did what? Intend to go about daily business while legally OC'ing? YES. Intend to scare people into thinking they were going to be victims of a shooting simply because of a person going about their business while happening to have a sidearm securely tucked into a holster? NOPE.

[retired]

"On the ground M***** F***** or Freeze A** H*** or Move a muscle and I make your birth control retroactive'

Ahhh........memories.:D

Why be a target? Unless you walk around with a vest on and have some kind of tactical training.... you're just going to get shot from some kid with a loaded illegal concealed gun anyways. When he goes to rob the store you are at, he will see your open carry, put two in your back and move on. He won't ask if it is unloaded or if you are not a LEO.

Now, this part from s2000news I agree with. This is my personal opinion tho. This doesn't mean I disagree with anyone who OC or who intends to, as that is a personal decision for them. I, for one, will not in an urban or surburban area. I don't want to be the victim of some guy who intends to 211 a business I'm in, but decides to shoot the guy who is OC first. I'll stay with ccw, which I also realize most don't have and cannot obtain in this state at this time. I sincerely hope it changes soon for all of you relatively soon.

[s2000news]

Funny how you claim to never having said you don't support it - [B]"Open carry just never made any sense. You get more bad than good from it anyways."
That sound like it has your full backing - NOT.

I dont think it makes sense. Thats right. I support the right to do it still. As I said, open carry makes no sense. A unloaded firearm is as good as a paperweight. CCW is the way to go on many levels.



People don't run screaming. It just doesn't happen that way. I have open carried into my local Pizza place while it was absolutely full of kids and adults from the local soccer league. Nobody paniced, nobody ran screaming. I have open carried into my local convenience store. The other customers didn't run screaming "OH MY GOD HE'S GOT A GUN". They see a peaceful person getting some milk and bread who happens to be carrying a gun. Now I suppose if I kicked the front door open and came in with the gun in my hand and started pointing it around the store, the reaction might be something like you describe.Seen it happen. Seen people run. Rolled up and witnessed it myself. So you would be wrong to assume it never happens.



I have even gone into my local sport's bar (the one that is frequented by all the local Sheriff's Deputies) for a burger with my gun on my hip. If anyone at the bar had a problem, they know where I live, and they could have asked the Deputies to invesitgate. But strange, no reaction.

I will be going up to Sacramento in about two weeks for an Open Carry Dinner. We will be in a group, there will be audio recording at the very least. We hope for an uneventful evening, but if we are contacted by the police, we will be peaceful, polite, patient, and professional. We will almost certainly not end up on the ground with drawn weapons pointing at our heads, but if we do, we will have witnesses and we will have recorded evidence and we will have lawsuits for the uninformed Police Officers who violate our rights.
Why do you need to record audio if you have such a peaceful reaction all the time? BECAUSE ITS NOT GUARANTEED! As I said, it not always that way.

[s2000news]

You can tell me all day that I willfully carried a firearm to disturb another-- and you can have people dialing 911 telling you that the firearm disturbs them-- you can have reporting parties on site screaming and jumping up and down telling you how afraid they are of my holstered firearm. But none of those things are elements of a crime. I think its pretty amusing how you try to warp this PC section to apply to an open carrier because of the 'noise' that others make in your pocket hypothetical.

Seems our discussion is not about legality, but about what people percieve.

While people may percieve a lawfully armed person as a threat, I, as a open carrier am not responsible for others 1) irrational fears, 2) unreasonable reactions, and 3) reporting my lawful behavior to authorities.

Huh? Lost me here. Your actions that cause a reaction from others is your responsibility. You don't have to do something illegal to be liable.

It may p!ss off the responding officers that they are on a call that is tantamount to a registration check on a motorist minding their own business, but with exposure will come acceptance and at some point, policies regarding handling reports of a 'man with a gun' will change... as will public opinion about lawfully armed persons. Thats their job, they should do it if and when needed. No need to worry.

[qquote]What we are up against though, is 40 plus years of California gun restriction and media indocrination that tells us only police and bad guys are armed. It is this perception that I am hoping to overturn, and hopefully it wont take 40 more years to get there.[/quote]

Amen. +1000000000

I hope that does change too. I would love to see the CCW laws or 'may issue' crap change. If more law abiding people had a weapon, and can be concealed and step up when someone is in need... the bad guys would think twice about many crimes upon people.

[s2000news]

INCORRECT. You are/were a LEO and you actually cannot differentiate between OC and actual BRANDISHING?????? People "run, make noise,and scream........" when some jerk-off is waving the piece around (unholstered), which IS BRANDISHING (which is illegal to do either way, even for CCW holders).


Brandishing a weapon is a different PC. Stay on topic. I was speaking of a holstered weapon, unloaded.


Did what? Intend to go about daily business while legally OC'ing? YES. Intend to scare people into thinking they were going to be victims of a shooting simply because of a person going about their business while happening to have a sidearm securely tucked into a holster? NOPE.
You just don't get it. You will find there is more to the penal code than googling it.

[s2000news]

s2000news, I get what you're trying to say, and I understand it, I think. My only issue is the above quoted section. I can understand such a situation occuring when an individual is either brandishing said firearm or displaying it in a threatening manner. It seems to me that the majority of the population in my area (I won't begin to speculate on yours/others locations), upon seeing a holstered firearm, will assume that either a: you are some form of LEO, or b: you have a "liscense" to do so. I have been with other individuals who were carrying, openly and unloaded, and have never had such a reaction while I was present, nor have I had any relayed. I guess it really depends on the local populace though. Inquisitive looks were a norm, and occasional questions, but never such an immediate panicked reaction.

Yeah, my reaction would be that way if a person brandished a weapon, not open carried.

In my area, a gang member is found to use a holster more now, as they know they will not draw as much attention. But after time, as they are doing it more often, they are getting the attention they didn't want. Along with the legal open carry guys. :(

The open carry people brought attention to the legal carrying of a weapon to the wrong people. I mean, the banger didn't read the Penal code or anything. :D

[CitaDeL]

I dont think it makes sense. Thats right. I support the right to do it still. As I said, open carry makes no sense. A unloaded firearm is as good as a paperweight. CCW is the way to go on many levels.

Why do you need to record audio if you have such a peaceful reaction all the time? BECAUSE ITS NOT GUARANTEED! As I said, it not always that way.

I like the comparisom of firearms and paperweights. I also like when people liken someone lawfully carrying an exposed, unloaded firearm with "Barney Fife".

In both cases, the suggestion that either are ineffective or ridiculous in practice are negated by the fact that both a paperweight and Barney Fife are still lethal force. Would it be more or less rational to carry a paperweight in my pocket for self-protection when I can carry a functional firearm? Granted, a concealed paperweight would not draw as much attention as a firearm, but imagine for a moment that for the purposes of practicality, I carried my hefty two pound stone or glass paperweight in a pouch so I could easily access it should I need it- it would certainly raise questions. The main difference is that I can load my pistol if I need it in about 5 seconds- the paperweight only remains effective within arms reach.

Likewise consider the lowly deputy from Mayberry- an empty pistol in his holster and a bullet in his pocket. Any criminal worth his salt could club the bumbling deputy over the head and take his empty firearm- and really that could be said of any armed man with a badge carrying a host of emplements on their belt, even a loaded firearm.

But if we look at those on the job, what we see is that police who are openly armed are seldom targeted (if ever) because they have a sidearm on their hip... They are actually targeted because the police are employed to intervene in criminal enterprise. Ask yourself- Why are most people on their best behavior when law enforcement are around? Why does traffic part like the red sea when a black and white patrol car cruises through freeway traffic, even though the light bar and siren are not activated?

People know that police have the capacity to change the course of their lives with the authority of the law, radios, handcuffs, and firearms ALA lethal force. I suggest that even Deputy Fife is only a few breif steps from administering lethal force in defense of himself or others and is no more a target of criminals than any of the public servants entrusted with administering jutice from behind mirrored shades and the badge on their chest. What difference is there then, between someone who was hired exclusively to serve the publics interest from someone who is armed to serve their own interest? I say that there is none. Both are 'authorized' and have the duty to protect themselves- and people recognizing this are on their best behavior regardless of whether or not an armed man also carries a badge.

As for recording- you know as well is I do that is done to protect ourselves from the possibility of false accusations...even if they come from police or well-intentioned citizens.

[Decoligny]

Why do you need to record audio if you have such a peaceful reaction all the time? BECAUSE ITS NOT GUARANTEED! As I said, it not always that way.

In your original post you said "It's not Hollywood, It's everywhere in Cali." This insinuated that anyone Open Carrying anywhere in California was automatically going to be thrown to the ground at gunpoint and have charges filed for some made up offense.

Now you are saying "It's not guaranteed" that it won't happen. Well, there are no guarantees that it won't happen. However, just because there is a small chance of some uneducated LEO overstepping his authority, this chance will not stop us from moving forward with Open Carrying. Yes, it is a type of political statement. Yes, there are certain risks. But if it is ever to become commonplace like in Arizona, or Virginia, or Nevada, somebody has got to take the lead and change the perception of the few who think guns are evil and kill people just by existing.

[s2000news]

In your original post you said "It's not Hollywood, It's everywhere in Cali." This insinuated that anyone Open Carrying anywhere in California was automatically going to be thrown to the ground at gunpoint and have charges filed for some made up offense.

Now you are saying "It's not guaranteed" that it won't happen. Well, there are no guarantees that it won't happen. However, just because there is a small chance of some uneducated LEO overstepping his authority, this chance will not stop us from moving forward with Open Carrying. Yes, it is a type of political statement. Yes, there are certain risks. But if it is ever to become commonplace like in Arizona, or Virginia, or Nevada, somebody has got to take the lead and change the perception of the few who think guns are evil and kill people just by existing.

Oops, hit quote on the wrong person....

As far as your post I agree things need to be changed. But I just find other ways to bring the issue to the people more helpful.

[s2000news]

I like the comparisom of firearms and paperweights. I also like when people liken someone lawfully carrying an exposed, unloaded firearm with "Barney Fife".

In both cases, the suggestion that either are ineffective or ridiculous in practice are negated by the fact that both a paperweight and Barney Fife are still lethal force. Would it be more or less rational to carry a paperweight in my pocket for self-protection when I can carry a functional firearm? Granted, a concealed paperweight would not draw as much attention as a firearm, but imagine for a moment that for the purposes of practicality, I carried my hefty two pound stone or glass paperweight in a pouch so I could easily access it should I need it- it would certainly raise questions. The main difference is that I can load my pistol if I need it in about 5 seconds- the paperweight only remains effective within arms reach.

Likewise consider the lowly deputy from Mayberry- an empty pistol in his holster and a bullet in his pocket. Any criminal worth his salt could club the bumbling deputy over the head and take his empty firearm- and really that could be said of any armed man with a badge carrying a host of emplements on their belt, even a loaded firearm.

But if we look at those on the job, what we see is that police who are openly armed are seldom targeted (if ever) because they have a sidearm on their hip... They are actually targeted because the police are employed to intervene in criminal enterprise. Ask yourself- Why are most people on their best behavior when law enforcement are around? Why does traffic part like the red sea when a black and white patrol car cruises through freeway traffic, even though the light bar and siren are not activated?

People know that police have the capacity to change the course of their lives with the authority of the law, radios, handcuffs, and firearms ALA lethal force. I suggest that even Deputy Fife is only a few breif steps from administering lethal force in defense of himself or others and is no more a target of criminals than any of the public servants entrusted with administering jutice from behind mirrored shades and the badge on their chest. What difference is there then, between someone who was hired exclusively to serve the publics interest from someone who is armed to serve their own interest? I say that there is none. Both are 'authorized' and have the duty to protect themselves- and people recognizing this are on their best behavior regardless of whether or not an armed man also carries a badge.

As for recording- you know as well is I do that is done to protect ourselves from the possibility of false accusations...even if they come from police or well-intentioned citizens.

Even more I don't agree with, but I will end this convo here, as you just bring more into it each time. Too bad you won't settle what was already started.

[CitaDeL]

Even more I don't agree with, but I will end this convo here, as you just bring more into it each time. Too bad you won't settle what was already started.

There is nothing to settle. Thanks for the civil discussion just the same.

My apologies to the OP and management for taking the topic so far afield.

[s2000news]

There is nothing to settle. Thanks for the civil discussion just the same.

My apologies to the OP and management for taking the topic so far afield.

Do you have skype? If you are willing, we can attempt to come to a mutual understanding on this topic.

If you are willing.

[supersonic]

Hey, s2000news - listen to this: Look at how many people saw what you have been posting and realized your complete absurdity and called you on it. Look how many posts you put on here trying to make pointless rebuttals to everyone that is/was hip to yourB.S. You simply find a way (whatever works in YOUR mind) to come back and criticize everyone's perfectly rational approaches to your nonsensical statements. You simply make ZERO SENSE. That's all there is too it. Period. :rolleyes:

BTW: anyone involved in the Sacramento OC dinner, PLEASE PM ME!!! I'm out of this thread because "s2000news" has been making such a ridiculous a**hat of himself, that I'm afraid I'll say something that I'll later regret!!!!!!:)

[Army]

... CCW is the way to go on many levels.

Until the law changes, CCW does NOT "go" at my level.

Coming up on 20 years in the Army, two combat tours in Iraq, I daresay I have fired my weapons in anger 20 fold over your alleged law enforcement career. My weapons training is, I guarantee, far beyond your comprehension. Yet I am unworthy of a CCW only because I do not have a good enough reason.

Your scenarios and personal "recollections" have, so far, not equalled the reality of open carry. Please, show us the Police report, or news item, of a store being cleared out in panic over a law abiding citizen calmly wearing open, and buying a gallon of milk. Things like that have a tendency of making the front page in California, and would be the opening story on the nightly news.

Therefore, I shall openly carry as allowed by law.

[11Z50]

The real issue here is the lack of CCW permits available to citizens. OC is their only option, and clearly is legal. If a more reasonable CCW statute were enacted, there would be no need for OC.

Putting CCW issuance under the control of the local sheriff (or in some cases chiefs of police) often results in a "no issue" policy. While some counties are pretty much "shall issue" most are very restrictive. This is undoubtedly unfair and should be remedied. While I agree in local control over most issues, in the area of CCW it has resulted in an abuse of authority and a preemption of citizen's right to self-defense. Naturally, most CLEO's with CCW issue authority don't want to hand out permits for many reasons, but the basic attitude is the cops will protect the citizens, so therefore they don't need a CCW.

While the cops would prefer that nobody was armed but them, the law clearly allows for citizens to OC, and has for years. If the cops don't like OC, maybe they should issue more CCW's. Unfortunately, LEO's generally are in a special class and don't need to worry about getting a CCW.

As for a solution to this issue, I don't know if a state-level issue authority is the answer, and some juridictions will never issue CCW's, even if ordered to do so by the Governor. Then again, issuance by the state, as in the case of Utah, may be the only fair and equitable answer.

OC is a movement that could lead to a review of CCW issuance in this state. Hopefully, there will come a day when OC will be rendered obsolete by a more liberal CCW issue policy statewide. Until then, OC is a normal citizen's only option if he/she feels the need to go armed.

[CombatMP]

FYI, I've been open carrying here in Solano County. I never had any negative experience. I also pass out the open-carry trifold pamplet to LEO and to anyone who is curious about it. Good Luck to you and CARRY ON.

BTW,
With due respect,
I read your post and most of them are BS.
I hope you'll soon get some needed enlightenment.

Regards,
Lito

[GuyW]

...open carry makes no sense....CCW is the way to go on many levels....

Invalid comparison. Most people that OC or are considering OC, don't have a legal CCW alternative.

So, the tradeoff's are,

1. are you safer with a quickly-loadable gun (or not) vs

2. are you making yourself the first target?

*Possibly*, but not *probably* - its just hypothetical IMHO

Ideas about *probability* of risk appreciated...

[GuyW]

Why do you need to record audio if you have such a peaceful reaction all the time? BECAUSE ITS NOT GUARANTEED! As I said, it not always that way.

You know recording is proposed because of the *possibility* of police misconduct.

I have been favorably impressed, however, by *most* of the anecdotes posted here about police interactions...

[GuyW]

Huh? Lost me here. Your actions that cause a reaction from others is your responsibility. You don't have to do something illegal to be liable.

So Obama's grandMAMA should have called the police and had black men arrested because they made her feel threatened?

Exactly what sort of police state is PRK??

[socom308]

To the original poster;

The lady that answered the phone at the south station was a police clerk, a civilian who has minimal, if any formal training in application/enforcement of the law. Expect them to have the same reaction as any other civilian government employee when confronted with such questions. They are no authority on the matter at hand.

Regarding her statement about 415pc;

Disturbing the peace is clearly defined in the penal code, simple open carry of an unloaded weapon does not meet any test under 415pc. Furthermore it is a misdemeanor, which requires a citizens arrest if not committed in the presence of a police officer (an officers peace cannot be disturbed in CA). When someone is charged with a misdemeanor such as 415pc, they are issued a citation with a court date for that offense and subsequently sent on their way (unless there is some likely hood that the offense will continue, person likely won't show to court, etc).

That being said, the average officer has NO training specifically dealing with the subject of open carrying of an unloaded firearm. It is simply not a normal thing to encounter in our culture in CA, therefore when it is in fact encountered do not expect citizens or police to be comfortable and not alarmed by it. Good or bad as that may be, that is how it is so operate accordingly. Cultural behavior can only change through exposure and education over time, so expect a long journey ahead. Remember, CA wasn't always a festering 5hithole full of illegal immigrants and raging liberals.

I would suggest that if you do open carry that you carry the afore mentioned pamphlet regarding the applicable laws, to help when encountering law enforcement personnel. Legal counsel on standby is not a bad thing either, as you may be likely to run across some law enforcement supervisor who will find something to charge you with, just because "we can't just let him go without charging him".

In closing, I would like to add that I am all for people doing whatever it is they want to do in accordance with the law and their rights, just be safe when doing so.

[Shotgun Man]

Not the answer the OP is looking for, but I had a similar experience concerning a knife.

I wanted to buy a knife whose blade would fold out upon pressing a lever. I brought an ad for the knife to the local constabulary because I was concerned that I might run afoul of the California prohibition on having a switchblade.

The desk sergeant referred me to the DA. I call the DA, and finally got to someone who purported to be a lawyer and she refers me to back to the sheriff!

[ohsmily]

Why do you need to record audio if you have such a peaceful reaction all the time? BECAUSE ITS NOT GUARANTEED! As I said, it not always that way.

Geez. Your logic is depressing.

Carrying a recorder is important because some police officers, like some people, LIE and until perceptions are changed in this state, open carrying entails a likelihood of being contacted by LE. The problem when police officers lie (as opposed to just your average non-cop) is that people's freedom can be at stake.

I plan to open carry soon, and in Davis of all places. I will DEFINITELY be carrying a recorder to document, if I am arrested, the fact that the officers were FULLY aware of the pertinent penal code sections and that they ignored them and arrested me anyway. I will also document my calm and even-tempered demeanor so they can't say I was agitated or yelling/causing a disturbance.

[BadFish]

I dont think it makes sense. Thats right. I support the right to do it still. As I said, open carry makes no sense. A unloaded firearm is as good as a paperweight. CCW is the way to go on many levels.



Seen it happen. Seen people run. Rolled up and witnessed it myself. So you would be wrong to assume it never happens.

Where did you see this happen? I want names palces (addresses and dates. Who was arrested. and the name of the department. Because Sir I believe you are full of it.

Why do you need to record audio if you have such a peaceful reaction all the time? BECAUSE ITS NOT GUARANTEED! As I said, it not always that way.


I'm sorry but it really sounds like a bunch of BS coming out of your mouth. So just back it up with some facts. I'll even apologies publicly if you are right.

[Hopi]

I plan to open carry soon, and in Davis of all places. .

If that Ben and Jerry's is still there, that would be a great place!

[Shotgun Man]

Geez. Your logic is depressing.

Carrying a recorder is important because some police officers, like some people, LIE and until perceptions are changed in this state, open carrying entails a likelihood of being contacted by LE. The problem when police officers lie (as opposed to just your average non-cop) is that people's freedom can be at stake.

I plan to open carry soon, and in Davis of all places. I will DEFINITELY be carrying a recorder to document, if I am arrested, the fact that the officers were FULLY aware of the pertinent penal code sections and that they ignored them and arrested me anyway. I will also document my calm and even-tempered demeanor so they can't say I was agitated or yelling/causing a disturbance.


The part about carrying a recorder that worries me is that it would be used against me.

The cops might find it and bash it against my skull. :)

[retired]

While some cops and probably most Sheriffs and Chiefs would prefer that nobody was armed but them,


I fixed it for you 11Z50.:D

[s2000news]

Hey, s2000news - listen to this: Look at how many people saw what you have been posting and realized your complete absurdity and called you on it. Look how many posts you put on here trying to make pointless rebuttals to everyone that is/was hip to yourB.S. You simply find a way (whatever works in YOUR mind) to come back and criticize everyone's perfectly rational approaches to your nonsensical statements. You simply make ZERO SENSE. That's all there is too it. Period. :rolleyes:

BTW: anyone involved in the Sacramento OC dinner, PLEASE PM ME!!! I'm out of this thread because "s2000news" has been making such a ridiculous a**hat of himself, that I'm afraid I'll say something that I'll later regret!!!!!!:)

I will attempt to reply back to all these... starting on this one.

Since you PMd me that colorful message, I replied there.

[s2000news]

Until the law changes, CCW does NOT "go" at my level.

Coming up on 20 years in the Army, two combat tours in Iraq, I daresay I have fired my weapons in anger 20 fold over your alleged law enforcement career. My weapons training is, I guarantee, far beyond your comprehension. Yet I am unworthy of a CCW only because I do not have a good enough reason.

Your scenarios and personal "recollections" have, so far, not equalled the reality of open carry. Please, show us the Police report, or news item, of a store being cleared out in panic over a law abiding citizen calmly wearing open, and buying a gallon of milk. Things like that have a tendency of making the front page in California, and would be the opening story on the nightly news.

Therefore, I shall openly carry as allowed by law.

I never said I didn't support Open Carry. Keep doing it if you want, more power to you.

I would rather carry concealed than open carry. Now, the CCW policy is CA sucks, never supported the way it has been run. And it should be changed.

If you don't have a CCW, OC is the only option if you want a gun on personal time.

If I am allowed to post a Police report, I'll post one for you, or via PM.

Last, I'm sure you shot in anger more than I, as I have not shoot in anger in my career.

[s2000news]

FYI, I've been open carrying here in Solano County. I never had any negative experience. I also pass out the open-carry trifold pamplet to LEO and to anyone who is curious about it. Good Luck to you and CARRY ON.

BTW,
With due respect,
I read your post and most of them are BS.
I hope you'll soon get some needed enlightenment.

Regards,
Lito

Yes, I agree it is fully legal. I just would not OC as my open options.

[s2000news]

Invalid comparison. Most people that OC or are considering OC, don't have a legal CCW alternative.

So, the tradeoff's are,

1. are you safer with a quickly-loadable gun (or not) vs

2. are you making yourself the first target?

*Possibly*, but not *probably* - its just hypothetical IMHO

Ideas about *probability* of risk appreciated...

Yes, a few posts up I stated.... (after your post) that if OC is the only option, I see why its done. But with a CCW, it is not the way to go with my available options.

I think we both agree that the risk of being a target is higher (even slightly) with an exposed weapon, loaded or not. Some don't care if they shoot a cop or a civilian with an OC. They may walk away when they see it, or think they can deal/take you. No matter, I think based on what you said, a CCW is the better option, if available to you.

CCW CA laws (may issue) should change, in my opinion.

[s2000news]

You know recording is proposed because of the *possibility* of police misconduct.

I have been favorably impressed, however, by *most* of the anecdotes posted here about police interactions...

Yes, I fully understand. I should have added the <sarcastic> mark for the not guaranteed part, as that is what I intended.

The point was to imply that a bad experience with a LEO can happen even though OC is legal.

[s2000news]

So Obama's grandMAMA should have called the police and had black men arrested because they made her feel threatened?

Exactly what sort of police state is PRK??

Not in the criminal courts. (for my example)

Off the top of my head: A guy walks in OCing and startles some old lady, she faints and hits her head. No criminal activity. But with the way so many are lawsuit crazy, she could file against you. Complete crap, you will end up winning, but you may end up with $$$ out of your pocket. People file for stupid reasons now a days. Again, not likely, possible.

Thats what I meant to imply.

[Billy Jack]

'Can't we all just get along?' Seems to be a lot of misdirected anger on this site. Sort of 'lets beat up the messenger because we do not like what he is saying'.

Having personally OC'd as a PI under 12031PC I can assure you it is not a good idea. I stopped doing so as soon as a Federal Judge educated a Chief and a Sheriff on the 14th Amendment, shazam, Guillory v Gates. If you live in a county populated primarily by woodland animals and a handful of citizens it may wash to OC. If tried in say San Francisco, San Mateo, Los Angeles or San Diego counties your experience might be somewhat different.

Petitions to Sheriffs and Chiefs as are being attempted in San Diego county and Long Beach are a waste of time. Nothing like a good old Federal lawsuit to get the blood moving and educate your Sheriff or Chief.

We are currently educating Chief Macagni in Santa Maria and are about to begin educating a Chief in Los Angeles County. I am also about to suit up for a central California Police Chief. Read our site and you can follow our exploits. By the way we have Intel that several departments around Santa Maria have revamped their CCW policies since Santa Maria's Chief was sued. Probably just a coincidence.

s2000news, I know two things. In spite of how articulate and patient you are, you will never convince some people on theses sites and number two, a lot of them are not on the member rolls at MENSA.

Go in peace Kemo Sabe.


Billy Jack

www.californiaconcealedcarry.com

[Decoligny]

s2000news, I know two things. In spite of how articulate and patient you are, you will never convince some people on theses sites and number two, a lot of them are not on the member rolls at MENSA.
Go in peace Kemo Sabe.

Billy Jack

www.californiaconcealedcarry.com

But some are, or were. I was a member of MENSA, quit because it was just a club for ego strokers. IQ 170, Bachelor's Degree totally by exam, with no college classes taken. From a "real" accredited college no less, not the some fly-by-night internet diploma mill.

[Army]

'Can't we all just get along?' Seems to be a lot of misdirected anger on this site. Sort of 'lets beat up the messenger because we do not like what he is saying'. Not anger, just bewilderment that you two are stonewalling about loaded open carry and CCW, and we are telling you about UNloaded open carry which is, as I am sure you must have read any one of our comments, is fully LEGAL in this state. We fully understand what you are saying, but it's not what we are talking about!

Having personally OC'd as a PI under 12031PC I can assure you it is not a good idea. Did you carry a LOADED firearm openly as a PI, or an UNloaded firearm as a "regular" citizen can?

I stopped doing so as soon as a Federal Judge educated a Chief and a Sheriff on the 14th Amendment, shazam, Guillory v Gates. So you are saying the 14thA trumps the 2ndA?

If you live in a county populated primarily by woodland animals and a handful of citizens it may wash to OC. If tried in say San Francisco, San Mateo, Los Angeles or San Diego counties your experience might be somewhat different. Well duh. But then again, in sparsely populated unincorporated areas it is legal to carry LOADED and open. In SF,SM, LA, or SD it is legal to carry UNloaded legally, regardless of a municipal doctrine that cannot supercede state law.

Petitions to Sheriffs and Chiefs as are being attempted in San Diego county and Long Beach are a waste of time. No Constitutional action is a waste of time. Nothing like a good old Federal lawsuit to get the blood moving and educate your Sheriff or Chief. Hey, at least we can agree on that.

We are currently educating Chief Macagni in Santa Maria and are about to begin educating a Chief in Los Angeles County. I am also about to suit up for a central California Police Chief. Read our site and you can follow our exploits. By the way we have Intel that several departments around Santa Maria have revamped their CCW policies since Santa Maria's Chief was sued. Probably just a coincidence. Once again, this discussion has nothing to do with loaded open carry, or CCW. Regardless of the outcome in Santa Maria, UNloaded open carry will remain legal.............even in Santa Maria.

s2000news, I know two things. In spite of how articulate and patient you are, you will never convince some people on theses sites Being patient and articulate while wrong, is wasting your time. and number two, a lot of them are not on the member rolls at MENSA. Ah, the 'ol "buncha damn ignorant rednecks" statement. Your argument holds no water, so that means I'm an idiot? Well thank you Stephen Hawkins for your insight.

Go in peace Kemo Sabe. I'll go legally armed, thanks just the same...


Billy Jack

www.californiaconcealedcarry.com (http://www.californiaconcealedcarry.com)

...

[hitnrun]

LOL! The Calguns experts have surfaced...and it's obvious.:rolleyes:

I find it ironic that a bunch of people giving legal advice without the qualifications to do so also have a banner for a high priced law firm on the top of every thread! :smilielol5: There must be something to that....


I'll continue watching this one with profound disbelief and astounding disappointment.:rolleyes:

[Decoligny]

LOL! The Calguns experts have surfaced...and it's obvious.:rolleyes:

I find it ironic that a bunch of people giving legal advice without the qualifications to do so also have a banner for a high priced law firm on the top of every thread! :smilielol5: There must be something to that....


I'll continue watching this one with profound disbelief and astounding disappointment.:rolleyes:

WOW, the only banners I happen to see are for.....get this now.....FIREARMS DEALERS.

This is a 2nd Amendment discussion board, in a forum about Law and Politics. If we aren't supposed to discuss our legal "opinions" (not advice) then WTF are we supposed to discuss? And look at the top of the page "NOT LEGAL COUNSEL", just people who have taken the time to understand our RIGHTS under the current California Penal Code, not our "priviliges" granted by the fiat of some Police Chief or County Sheriff.

I find it amazing that you have disbelief at people excercising a RIGHT, and I am sorry that you are so disappointed that we won't roll over and give up our RIGHTS to make others more comfortable.

[hitnrun]

I find it amazing that you have disbelief at people excercising a RIGHT, and I am sorry that you are so disappointed that we won't roll over and give up our RIGHTS to make others more comfortable.


Dude...what...the...frig... You must have me mistaken for someone who actually gives a $H!T.

Lay off the anti ANTI kool aid. Not everybody wants YOUR guns or YOUR rights...so, you can relax.

The only rolling over I have thought about throughout this thread is the kind that I do in bed when I need to fart. You seem to think that I care about taking your rights from you or that I expect you to give them up for other peoples comfort. The fact is...I just don't care enough bud. I don't care if others are comfortable, I don't care if you're comfortable. It makes no difference. If you need to picture yourself on top of a white horse wearing an unloaded gun so that others can see you...go ahead. Do whatever makes you feel worthy.


BTW, your flagrant attempts to butcher my post are sadly indicative of MANY of the problems within OUR community. ADD has run rampant and the focus of the important things is nearly lost.:rolleyes:

[CombatMP]

Dude...what...the...frig... You must have me mistaken for someone who actually gives a $H!T.

Lay off the anti ANTI kool aid. Not everybody wants YOUR guns or YOUR rights...so, you can relax.

The only rolling over I have thought about throughout this thread is the kind that I do in bed when I need to fart. You seem to think that I care about taking your rights from you or that I expect you to give them up for other peoples comfort. The fact is...I just don't care enough bud. I don't care if others are comfortable, I don't care if you're comfortable. It makes no difference. If you need to picture yourself on top of a white horse wearing an unloaded gun so that others can see you...go ahead. Do whatever makes you feel worthy.




BTW, your flagrant attempts to butcher my post are sadly indicative of MANY of the problems within OUR community. ADD has run rampant and the focus of the important things is nearly lost.:rolleyes:


It's sounds like you're not a caring guy, I wonder why you even waste your precious time posting on this thread. I don't get it, make no sense..:rolleyes: Good Luck to you and CARRYON :)

[Decoligny]

Dude...what...the...frig... You must have me mistaken for someone who actually gives a $H!T.

Lay off the anti ANTI kool aid. Not everybody wants YOUR guns or YOUR rights...so, you can relax.

The only rolling over I have thought about throughout this thread is the kind that I do in bed when I need to fart. You seem to think that I care about taking your rights from you or that I expect you to give them up for other peoples comfort. The fact is...I just don't care enough bud. I don't care if others are comfortable, I don't care if you're comfortable. It makes no difference. If you need to picture yourself on top of a white horse wearing an unloaded gun so that others can see you...go ahead. Do whatever makes you feel worthy.

BTW, your flagrant attempts to butcher my post are sadly indicative of MANY of the problems within OUR community. ADD has run rampant and the focus of the important things is nearly lost.:rolleyes:

OK, so you don't care. That just makes you someone who posts to a thread who doesn't have any other reason to do so than to get a reaction. I think your letting a little bit of your inner troll peek through.

Not everyone want to take my rights away, but many do. Some of us actually do care about those rights being taken away. Some of us are willing to do more than just sit at home behind a computer keyboard and actually DO SOMETHING, even if it has risks.

Most people in California CANNOT get a concealed carry permit. The only options left to them are:
1. Go completely unarmed. Rely on the Police to collect evidence at the scene of the crime, or to identify the body and notify next of kin. Unacceptable Option
2. Carry Concealed Illegally. Run the risk of losing the right to even own a gun. Unacceptable Option
3. Open Carry, loaded in the places allowed, unloaded where required by law. Take the risk that some LEO might abuse their authority and harrass or arrest me. Have the knowledge that in a SHTF situation, I can have my weapon in battery in about 2 seconds, and defend myself. Expose average everyday people to honest law abiding citizens who carry guns, thus reducing the overall irrational fear of guns usually held by those unfamiliar with firearms.

No white horse involved here, at least no more so than anyone else involved in any other politically controversial area. More of a steadfast resolve to not only not let any more of my rights be degraded, but to also do everything in my power to get back the ones already taken.

[cadurand]

LOL! The Calguns experts have surfaced...and it's obvious.:rolleyes:

I find it ironic that a bunch of people giving legal advice without the qualifications to do so also have a banner for a high priced law firm on the top of every thread! :smilielol5: There must be something to that....


I'll continue watching this one with profound disbelief and astounding disappointment.:rolleyes:Instead of offering advice, from a cop, on how to stay out of trouble while open carrying he poors gas on a flame. Not very constructive.

[CSDGuy]

Billy Jack is a PI. He has a Guard Card/Gun Permit. He can do loaded OC while he is working per PC 12031. With a CCW, he can CCW while working. I think that what Billy Jack is saying about the 14th Amendment, is not that it's better than the 2nd, but that it's a tool that has broader and easier application than the 2nd alone has.

[Glock22Fan]

Billy Jack is a PI. He has a Guard Card/Gun Permit. He can do loaded OC while he is working per PC 12031. With a CCW, he can CCW while working. I think that what Billy Jack is saying about the 14th Amendment, is not that it's better than the 2nd, but that it's a tool that has broader and easier application than the 2nd alone has.


Yes, Billy Jack can legally open carry loaded when working. HOWEVER, it is his experiences when doing that (and when he was a deputy taking "Man with gun" calls) that made him realize that Open Carry, however legal, is not advisable in California.

As he says, "Been there, done that."

With the 14th, CWDGuy is correct. The 2nd has limited scope in California (this may change with the Heller ruling) but the 14th demands equal treatment - no favoritism for the sheriff's friends.

[CCWFacts]

With the 14th, CWDGuy is correct. The 2nd has limited scope in California (this may change with the Heller ruling) but the 14th demands equal treatment - no favoritism for the sheriff's friends.

It would be more accurate to say, the 2nd has no scope or validity in California at this point. Has any law in California ever been overturned by the 2A? I don't think so. The 9th Circuit ruled that the 2A had no applicability to gun laws.

Unless or until we get 1. a favorable ruling in Heller and 2. a favorable ruling in a subsequent incorporation case, the 2A might as well not even exist in this state.

I know that is not what people here want to hear but it is reality.

We're also one of the few unfortunate states that doesn't have a state-level RKBA in our const.

[tombinghamthegreat]

Before i attempt an open carry should i inform the cops? I hate the idea of telling a bunch of useless cops what i am going to do but would it reduce a risk of a cop using excessive force? We calgunners should make a youtube event of this, maybe i might. One person films and another open carries in a not so OC friendly area for one if the cops use too much force i can use the film against the cops and two give people a visual example of a legal open carry.

[tombinghamthegreat]

It would be more accurate to say, the 2nd has no scope or validity in California at this point. Has any law in California ever been overturned by the 2A? I don't think so.

What about Prop H? Was that overturned in the CA courts?

[CSDGuy]

What about Prop H? Was that overturned in the CA courts?
Yes, Prop H was overturned by the CA Courts. It was not invalidated on 2A grounds. It was invalidated because of preemption. SF was wading into an area that the state has indicated that it intends to occupy the whole of the field of regulation. In other words, SF was doing something that it was not allowed to do.

[Kestryll]

There have been a lot of strong opinions and strong words in this thread, some to a point that a few of the posters will not be continuing the discussion for a few days.

Just a reminder, insults, snide comments to or about other members, rude posts and/or just plain uncivil behavior is not tolerated.

Please stay focused on the facts and remain civil, thank you.

[Paladin]

FWIW, I'm waiting to see how Heller turns out before considering/advocating pushing things w/unloaded OC.

If things go our way w/Heller, unloaded (or even loaded) OC might be necessary to push Sacto to take us to "Shall Issue." If, somehow, Heller turns out bad, we'll have to continue w/the NRA's low-profile approach for the foreseeable future and pushing things w/unloaded OC might harm our side.

JMOI just want to add that one possible negative result of OC'ing now, either loaded or unloaded, is that stores might start putting up No Guns signs before we get CCW reform. Once that happens, it will be hard to undo.

I am confident we will get CCW reform, either by Heller and subsequent cases and/or by TBJ lawsuits "nuking" the major Discriminatory Issuance counties/cities on the one side and increasing issuance on the Reasonable Issuance counties on the other side causing the middle to go to Reasonable Issuance too. Then, with 5 - 10 yrs of slow, steady pressure, we should be able to get legislative "reform" to go our way in Sacto. It won't be fast, it won't be glamorous, but we will win.

For now I think it is wisest to hold off on advocating OC'ing until seeing and analyzing the Heller opinion in June (less than 3 months away).

[Hopi]

There have been a lot of strong opinions and strong words in this thread, some to a point that a few of the posters will not be continuing the discussion for a few days.

Just a reminder, insults, snide comments to or about other members, rude posts and/or just plain uncivil behavior is not tolerated.

Please stay focused on the facts and remain civil, thank you.

Banfest!

[Decoligny]

I just want to add that one possible negative result of OC'ing now, either loaded or unloaded, is that stores might start putting up No Guns signs before we get CCW reform. Once that happens, it will be hard to undo.

I am confident we will get CCW reform, either by Heller and subsequent cases and/or by TBJ lawsuits "nuking" the major Discriminatory Issuance counties/cities on the one side and increasing issuance on the Reasonable Issuance counties on the other side causing the middle to go to Reasonable Issuance too. Then, with 5 - 10 yrs of slow, steady pressure, we should be able to get legislative "reform" to go our way in Sacto. It won't be fast, it won't be glamorous, but we will win.

For now I think it is wisest to hold off on advocating OC'ing until seeing and analyzing the Heller opinion in June (less than 3 months away).

The effect that open carry has on any store that ends up posting "NO GUNS" will only be felt by those who open carry. These signs carry no weight of law in California. If a person were to ignore the sign and carry concealed, unless he exposed his weapon, nobody would know it was there. Then the worst that would happen is you would be asked to leave the store.

The immediate effect of holding off on open carrying for the majority of those who do open carry is simply laying down the ability to legally exercise our 2A rkBa. Open carry is at this time the only method of legal carry available to me. For me to go unarmed when I could legally be armed, is not an acceptable alternative.

CCW will never have the ability to acclimate the general public to the concept that law abiding citizens can carry a firearm without a shootout erupting on every street corner, the way that open carry can. The more often you see something, the more comfortable you become with it. The more that open carry is demonstrated as a "normal" activity, the more people will accept guns as a part of normal life.

[CCWFacts]

Open carry is at this time the only method of legal carry available to me.

That's how it is for about 80% of California. Our small-but-growing open carry activity is a sign of how frustrated people are in the no-issue areas.

Option 1: Pepper spray, a dog, Krav Maga, etc. Legal, least hassle, least safety
Option 2: Illegal CCW. Illegal, no hassle if you don't get caught, lots and lots of problems if you do, maximum safety
Option 3: Legal (but with lots of restrictions, hassle, and potential hassle) open carry. Hassle is likely, medium safety

Of those three, Option 3 gives the highest level of safety without breaking the law. With practice, an unloaded gun can be loaded and get into action in less than 2 sec, which is a lot faster than typical police response times.

I myself am not doing Option 3, or Option 2 at this point though.

[CombatMP]

That's how it is for about 80% of California. Our small-but-growing open carry activity is a sign of how frustrated people are in the no-issue areas.

Option 1: Pepper spray, a dog, Krav Maga, etc. Legal, least hassle, least safety
Option 2: Illegal CCW. Illegal, no hassle if you don't get caught, lots and lots of problems if you do, maximum safety
Option 3: Legal (but with lots of restrictions, hassle, and potential hassle) open carry. Hassle is likely, medium safety

Of those three, Option 3 gives the highest level of safety without breaking the law. With practice, an unloaded gun can be loaded and get into action in less than 2 sec, which is a lot faster than typical police response times.

I myself am not doing Option 3, or Option 2 at this point though.

you're right, O'cing is not for everyone.
It really depends on the individuals current situation and the amount of time the person have, to deal with hassle, and potential hassle, it's sad but its true.
Each individual have their own priorities. For me safety is my number one priority. My insurance company's are HK or S&W;). My choice right now is Option 3
CARRYON
regards to all,

:D

[Liberty1]

What about Prop H? Was that overturned in the CA courts?


We, NRA, etc..., won the last round. SF is appealing to the CASC. It was found to violate the preemption of State laws (not sure if the CA constitution entered in the decision - I seem to think it did?). But this decision was not related to 2A which doesn't exist in the 9th circuit as an individual right (not yet anyway - I'm holding my breath till June! :D)

[Stormfeather]

Banfest!

wow.. . Kestryl opened up with both barrels. . . from the hip. . . from under a trenchcoat. . . firing that BanGun! :eek:

Look out! hes got the Ban-5 Submachine gun on full auto!! :2guns:BanBanBanBanBanBan. . . . .!!!!:65::36::25::59:

[Piper]

I'm will not nor do I intend to in the near future carry an unloaded firearm. However, I do carry my pepper spray, taser and folding knife openly. So far, I've received no reaction from these devices. With more and more taser parties being attended by women and with the focus being placed more and more on personal defense by groups that stand to make millions on personal defense, I can see the hoplophobes slowly being placed at ease. I'm sort of at a point where I see both sides of the coin but I think that LE reaction to private persons having firearms is the most telling about where the politicians (their handlers) stand on our 2A rights.

I had an interesting conversation with a person on another forum and came to the conclusion that LE is a reflection of the people that hire them. If the politicians are generally pro gun, the police are less likely to take an extreme approach with guns.

[MudCamper]

I had an interesting conversation with a person on another forum and came to the conclusion that LE is a reflection of the people that hire them. If the politicians are generally pro gun, the police are less likely to take an extreme approach with guns.

That is a very interesting observation.

[Decoligny]

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum12/9588.html

Seems like the average Sacramento resident is not running in fear at the meer sight of legal open carry.