Creative ways to reach apathetic gun owners in this state

[CCWFacts]

For those who haven't read in the Tulare thread, there has been some angry discussion there about apathetic gun owners in this state. I'm the one who got angriest and made the most overboard statements, which I shouldn't have. I'm angry because I'm in a part of California that is making no tangible progress on CCW, but I need to keep in mind that my anger should be channeled only into constructive action and positive statements.

In the past, I've also come up with some outrageous ways of getting gun owners in this state to not be apathetic, and those ideas have, well, caused outrage.

So... I'm starting a new thread to have non-angry, hopefully constructive discussion of how to reach California's millions of gun owners who, year after year, take no action whatsoever for gun rights.

I would consider being a $35 a year NRA member the absolute baseline for being an "active" gun owner. Millions of gun owners in this state don't even do that. They don't vote pro-gun at all (ie, they continue to vote for anti-CCW sheriffs, anti-gun-rights reps, etc). They aren't aware of issues. They never contact their reps.

I see four categories of why gun owners are not involved:


They support the ideas but apathetic and don't care enough to take action
They support owning guns but are repulsed by the NRA
A strange category: gun owners who don't support gun rights. I know quite a few of these in LA.
They are hypocrites like Sylvester Stallone and Diane Feinstein: gun owners who are actively hostile to gun rights


#4, we can ignore because there's nothing that can be done about them, other than to expose them in the most outrageous cases like Rambo's CCW (http://blog.riflegear.com/articles/the-hypocrisy-of-sylvester-stallone.aspx).

What about #1 and #2 though? And is there anything that could be done about #3?

[Patriot]

#2 - If they dislike the NRA erroneously or for various reasons, point out the net advantages to NRA membership. If they adamantly refuse to reconsider, encourage them in other forms of 2A activism (contacting reps, etc.).

#1 - Persuade or guilt them into joining :43:

[justakid]

you created a new thread because you couldn't take what people had to say to you.

Im sticking to my intitial post.

You move to Vermont. :auto:

[CCWFacts]

you created a new thread because you couldn't take what people had to say to you.

I started it because I had, in fact, threw the thread way off by getting too angry about it. It's a good topic and worthy of a productive thread.

Im sticking to my intitial post.

You move to Vermont. :auto:

Hey it might come to that. I like maple syrup also.

[RRangel]

you created a new thread because you couldn't take what people had to say to you.

Im sticking to my intitial post.

You move to Vermont. :auto:

Nothing wrong with the initial post. Maybe be constructive or don't post at all.

[justakid]

Nothing wrong with the initial post. Maybe be constructive or don't post at all.

I am being very constructive. Giving DO NOT CALL OTHER MEMBERS NAMES, REGARDLESS OF HOW CREATIVE YOU THINK IT IS a better option. To move out of state. :)

[DedEye]

I used to fall into #2, but microstamping passing finally woke me up and got me past any concerns over other political issues I had with the organization.

[hoffmang]

If for some ideological reason someone isn't willing to be an NRA member they could only donate to the Calguns Foundation instead of both.

-Gene

[RRangel]

I should have known better. I feel sort of guilty now.

http://www.consolefan.com/guntroll.jpg

[Gator Monroe]

Not only in LA but throughout the State ! Many are Leftist Secular Progressive Gunowners who actuially do Care and vote (But like Irvine California Soccer Moms)

[yellowfin]

5. They don't see it as doing any good, as many would easily be led to believe.
6. They're going to move.
7. They have moved already.
8. They figure they'll never need to purchase additional firearms.
9. They live with hostile spouse or family which keeps them completely mute.
10. They fear retaliation by community, police, or both.

...Hmm...I wonder if anyone has solutions for these problems, or will even try.

[bwiese]

Many are Leftist Secular Progressive Gunowners who actuially do Care and vote (But like Irvine California Soccer Moms)

Would you please dump "secular" from that?

Many gunowners vote, and are conservative and are secular - like myself.

You can indeed be a conservative and be nonreligious.

The whole problem with conservativism in CA, in fact, is that it has the appearance of being nonsecular which causes many folk to run away from it (wholly aside from gun issues).

[Gator Monroe]

And some say they are Conservative and Democrat or Progressive and Libratarian also (Gunowners are a Big tent ?)

[Nemo]

I'm in the "I support gun rights strongly, but am repulsed by the NRA" camp. Gun rights outreach to those of us who are left-leaning, or female, gay, secular, etc. would be a good tactic. As a wise old professor once said, "it's not really coalition if it doesn't hurt." ;)

Supporting the Calguns foundation may be a good option for me, anyhow.
I'd love to see more NRA-ACLU cooperation (heresy, I know, but rights are rights). If the Heller case is decided favorably, I'm hoping and bugging 'em for some ACLU policy change regarding 2A rights.

[yellowfin]

Nobody in the NRA has ever said that it's not for women, different non-firearm ideologies, etc. That's a misperception. Many people like myself simply don't know who to invite. There's a considerable problem I have gathered that there is a lot of spying and sabotage that perhaps keeps things a little closer to the vest than would be good otherwise.

[LowRight]

If you have a comment about a different thread, make it in that thread don't bring it to a new thread.

[Gator Monroe]

I'm in the "I support gun rights strongly, but am repulsed by the NRA" camp. Gun rights outreach to those of us who are left-leaning, or female, gay, secular, etc. would be a good tactic. As a wise old professor once said, "it's not really coalition if it doesn't hurt." ;)

Supporting the Calguns foundation may be a good option for me, anyhow.
I'd love to see more NRA-ACLU cooperation (heresy, I know, but rights are rights). If the Heller case is decided favorably, I'm hoping and bugging 'em for some ACLU policy change regarding 2A rights.

Some say I support the Jewish People But I'm repulsed by Israel ! But I'm in the camp that says anti-Zionism is Anti-Semitism (But thats just me)

[Kestryll]

I am being very constructive. Giving CCWFalse a better option. To move out of state. :)

How about this bit of constructive critisizm.

Knock off the personal comments and attacks or I'll bounce your account.

Too subtle?

[Gator Monroe]

How about this bit of constructive critisizm.

Knock off the personal comments and attacks or I'll bounce your account.

Too subtle?

I'm sooooo glad you did not Quote me Kestral (I almost feel like I'm accecepted now here and am very thankfull to you)

[razorx]

I will probably end up being forced into joining the NRA similar to reasons why being forced to vote for McCain. No viable alternatives.

I really don't want to have to buy a pickup and start listening to country music again. I wear dockers most of the time, rarely jeans and just don't have much of an urge anymore to shoot Bambi. But if I have to do all these things to protect my gun rights, well I guess Bambi is toast. I'm sure I've got some Nugent somewhere in my mp3s...

This is just to illustrate the public perception problem with the NRA. The public is not the one with the problem, it is the charter/direction of the NRA. I believe there is room for an organization to cross ideological lines focused on Gun rights without the crutch of "hunting". NRA has too much baggage associated with it to take a primary role in the fight for gun rights. Plus, similar to the NAACP, there are consistent charges that the organization has "matured" to where it's primary function is to exist when it's goal should be to not exist.

Ultimately, to protect gun rights, shoot bambi. I don't like it, but will vote for McCain as well with just as much enthusiasm.

What I want from CalGuns Foundation is to test out the idea of an organization focused solely on gun rights (forget hunting, NRA domain), prove out the concept, and then morph to a national organization with a much broader appeal base than what NRA can reach.

[bulgron]

What I want from CalGuns Foundation is to test out the idea of an organization focused solely on gun rights (forget hunting, NRA domain), prove out the concept, and then morph to a national organization with a much broader appeal base than what NRA can reach.

Funny, I went to an NRA Council Members meeting recently, and I don't remember them spending an awful lot of time talking about hunting.

Clearly there were hunters in attendance. Just as clearly, the thing that had people upset were all the anti-gun laws coming out of Sacramento these days. Oh, and CCW of course. Seems that people around here are just a wee-bit upset about the CCW situation.

Maybe your county is different?

Or maybe you just haven't bothered to get out and meet the local NRA people?

By the way, I don't hunt but I do drive a pickup truck and sometimes (but not always) I listen to country music. I wear blue jeans and t-shirts most of the time, because I work all alone out of my house, but when I have to be presentable I can still find a pair of dockers in my closet. I own no camo. I don't even own a shotgun. I'm also pro choice and anti government in marriage and our bedrooms. And I'm willing to hang out with a bunch of camo-wearing, country music listening, flannel-clad hunters if that's what it takes to right the bad gun laws in this state.

You should try it. Meeting new people is always a broadening experience. :D

[sfwdiy]

What I want from CalGuns Foundation is to test out the idea of an organization focused solely on gun rights (forget hunting, NRA domain), prove out the concept, and then morph to a national organization with a much broader appeal base than what NRA can reach.

:iagree:

[Satex]

Unfortunately, apathy is human nature. We lose our apathy when things turn really bad. We will probably have to wait just before they start rounding us legal firearm owners into concentration camps for attitudes to change.

[justakid]

How about this bit of constructive critisizm.

Knock off the personal comments and attacks or I'll bounce your account.

Too subtle?

are you a mall ninja?

[razorx]

Funny, I went to an NRA Council Members meeting recently, and I don't remember them spending an awful lot of time talking about hunting.

Clearly there were hunters in attendance. Just as clearly, the thing that had people upset were all the anti-gun laws coming out of Sacramento these days. Oh, and CCW of course. Seems that people around here are just a wee-bit upset about the CCW situation.

Maybe your county is different?

Or maybe you just haven't bothered to get out and meet the local NRA people?

By the way, I don't hunt but I do drive a pickup truck and sometimes (but not always) I listen to country music. I wear blue jeans and t-shirts most of the time, because I work all alone out of my house, but when I have to be presentable I can still find a pair of dockers in my closet. I own no camo. I don't even own a shotgun. I'm also pro choice and anti government in marriage and our bedrooms. And I'm willing to hang out with a bunch of camo-wearing, country music listening, flannel-clad hunters if that's what it takes to right the bad gun laws in this state.

You should try it. Meeting new people is always a broadening experience. :D


My point was to illustrate public perception. Reality is that there are a very diverse set of members in the NRA. However, the marketing and promotion over these past many years as been hunting based rather than gun rights based. The backlash is now the public perception has been set and it will not change. Maybe NRA could splinter off a dedicated gun rights organization but would still inherit the bias of the past.

Mention NRA around the large majority of "liberal", major metropolitan areas, academic circles and eyes just start to roll. NRA might increase enrollment but it will be the "backsliders and Easter Sunday goers" rather than reaching across the aisle for the group of America that has a legitimate concern about self-protection but does not want to be associated with the NRA or any organization with a similar public perception. NRA is good for what it is, but with the current geo-political climate, it is stretched further than what it can handle.

I match my redneck genes with anyone in the NRA (might be surprised about that gene matching in Arkansas actually... or not, I think i'll stop there), but still have to be aware of where the rest of America is and what will it take to reach them to original posters question. Unless we reach across the aisle with a new message and focus, apathy will continue to happen.

Oh, I will not listen to country music EVER for ANY reason. Must have principles. Bluegrass or folk sure, country never.

[Kestryll]

are you a mall ninja?


Um... Yeah... something like that.

:rolleyes:

[CCWFacts]

I'm in the "I support gun rights strongly, but am repulsed by the NRA" camp. Gun rights outreach to those of us who are left-leaning, or female, gay, secular, etc. would be a good tactic.

I'm also in the "I support gun rights strongly but am repulsed by the NRA". Not so repulsed that I'm not a dedicated member though.

I just now was having lunch, here in the most liberal zipcode in Southern California, with a friend of mine from San Francisco. She's a gun owner, non-white, non-religious, non-straight, and she also is not an NRA member because she feels it is Republican aligned and her values won't fit in there.

I hope that the CalGuns foundation can effectively reach out to gun owners like her. That's the only way we're going to get on track to turning things around in this state. We're losing not because there aren't gun owners here, but because the NRA is unable to connect with them.

[leelaw]

are you a mall ninja?

You're not getting the hint.

Knock it off, or move to another site, kid.

[Kestryll]

Don't mess with the Admin, Princess. It doesn't end in a pretty way.

[Soldier415]

Don't mess with the Admin Princess, it's doesn't end in a pretty way.

:jump:


I do believe we just had our first forcible sex change here on the forum. A kid just became a Princess!


:rofl2: :rofl2: :rofl2:

[Gator Monroe]

I'm also in the "I support gun rights strongly but am repulsed by the NRA". Not so repulsed that I'm not a dedicated member though.

I just now was having lunch, here in the most liberal zipcode in Southern California, with a friend of mine from San Francisco. She's a gun owner, non-white, non-religious, non-straight, and she also is not an NRA member because she feels it is Republican aligned and her values won't fit in there.

I hope that the CalGuns foundation can effectively reach out to gun owners like her. That's the only way we're going to get on track to turning things around in this state. We're losing not because there aren't gun owners here, but because the NRA is unable to connect with them.

Reach out to someone who WILL vote in Anti-Firearm candidates every Election ? or Reach out to guy's like me, Non-NRA members who are Southern Baptists for Judaism who relate more to George Wallace Democrats than George W Bush Republicans ?

[Gator Monroe]

Don't mess with the Admin Princess, it's doesn't end in a pretty way.

Admin Princess ? (Future kING OF THE hE sHES)

[Kestryll]

Admin Princess ? (Future kING OF THE hE sHES)

Whoops, comma in the wrong place.

[justakid]

:jump:


I do believe we just had our first forcible sex change here on the forum. A kid just became a Princess!


:rofl2: :rofl2: :rofl2:


well I am a girl. So that would make me a princess.

i take that as a compliment.

now back to CCWFacts. He is way out in left field and seems like everyone jumps on the bandwaggon no matter what he says.

Therefore, It doesn't matter what ANYONE says, everyone just goes with what CCWFalse says.

[GuyW]

Get 'em involved?

Mail a fake but realistic-looking "turn in your guns" letter to every residential address...

....use my address as the drop-off point, so that I can pick up freebies...

[Kestryll]

Since you do not seem to learn I'll set it out for you.
Rude comments personal attacks, sarcastic comments about other members and uncivil behavior is no acceptable here.

You have been warned about it and you persist in not only continuing but being rather pushy about it.

Shall we go for a third strike?

[Bizcuits]

Don't be an emotional wind bag.

Meet them on their level. Find points which will support both sides. (In example; I see your point of view, but check how this effects your view)

Ask them to explain their point of view, then express yours and point out what you don't agree with on theirs.

Don't argue, but debate the topics.


I've converted many liberal and anti-gun persons towards a pro-2nd amendment stance. If your civil about it and don't get heated, it may take a few hours, days, weeks or months, but you will begin to wear on them.

I had a co-worker who felt only cops should have ccw's and aw's... Now he wants full auto's for any nonviolent criminal who wants one and can afford one.



What I think would be cool is if a gun owner group support some special cause like Kids with Cancer, Special Ed or something like that. It'd show the community gun owners do care.

[Gator Monroe]

If the Guy thinks Sade's gay cousin is fun to hang out with and have a latte thats OK but as for her being a Glock 22 owner who spends lotsa range time insted of lotsa Rainbow time I'm thinkin her type is far & few between so promoting those types of Californians as a next wave of 2 A friendy folks is far fetched and too unrealistic and seemingly promoting hidden agendas ?

[bulgron]

If the Guy thinks Sade's gay cousin is fun to hang out with and have a latte thats OK but as for her being a Glock 22 owner who spends lotsa range time insted of lotsa Rainbow time I'm thinkin her type is far & few between so promoting those types of Californians as a next wave of 2 A friendy folks is far fetched and too unrealistic and seemingly promoting hidden agendas ?

Ever heard of the Pink Pistols?

They are out there.

And sometimes I think there's more of them than there are "Christian white male" gun owners in this part of the state.

[Kestryll]

Posts mentioning justakids name have been removed.

As an aside Princess has not been banned but may have some trouble re-logging in. It seems they changed their email address to one that does not exist and so can not receive the verification email.

They have effectively banned themselves in the short term.

If you are reading this and can abide by the rules as listed and explained I can restore your screen name and title and also repair your email address and status.
Use the 'Contact Us' button at the bottom of every page to email me.

[Soldier415]

Posts mentioning justakids name have been removed.

As an aside Princess has not been banned but may have some trouble re-logging in. It seems they changed their email address to one that does not exist and so can not receive the verification email.

They have effectively banned themselves in the short term.

If you are reading this can abide by the rules as listed and explained I can restore your screen name and title and also repair your email address and status.
Use the 'Contact Us' button at the bottom of every page to email me.


Getting Crafty in your later years eh :D

[Gator Monroe]

Ever heard of the Pink Pistols?

They are out there.

And sometimes I think there's more of them than there are "Christian white male" gun owners in this part of the state.

Wishfull thinkin there Scooter ! Shasta County (89% white 72% republican) where do you live ?

[Kestryll]

Getting Crafty in your later years eh :D

Not me, they really did it to themselves.
I even forwarded myself the auto-email the server sends out when there is a delivery failure and saved the real email address as a Draft in case they do want to restore it.

I will be remembering how this little 'null-space loop' is created however... :43:

[Nemo]

If the Guy thinks Sade's gay cousin is fun to hang out with and have a latte thats OK but as for her being a Glock 22 owner who spends lotsa range time insted of lotsa Rainbow time I'm thinkin her type is far & few between so promoting those types of Californians as a next wave of 2 A friendy folks is far fetched and too unrealistic and seemingly promoting hidden agendas ?

You'd be surprised. I love both my rainbow time AND my range time :p, and I'm not alone.

In fact, I've been taking my entire women's/trans self-defense group (about 9 folks at the moment) to the range monthly. It's been changing the minds of many of them, who were previously fearful of/against guns and private gun ownership. Most of the folks in the group are seriously left-leaning, and fall across the spectrum in many other ways.
Most hear the term "NRA" and cringe, but support the 2A. I think there are many who fall into that gap.

[CCWFacts]

GO NEMO! That is excellent. We really really need to reach those groups. They drive a lot of the thinking in urban California, and that's where we need to start winning hearts and minds.

And the NRA is not effectively able to do it. We need to either change the NRA, or use the CalGuns foundation, or something else, to win in this.

Yes, there are many gays who are into guns and who are conservative.

[bulgron]

Wishfull thinkin there Scooter ! Shasta County (89% white 72% republican) where do you live ?

"Scooter"??

Anyway, the Location field on my posts should tell you what you need to know about my, um, location. :D

[Soldier415]

"Scooter"??

Anyway, the Location field on my posts should tell you what you need to know about my, um, location. :D

I don't know...it is a bit difficult to discern :confused:

Now that I have found it, i believe the 87% majority in your county is Pinoy :D

[Bombast]

You have to define your goals. Are you trying to get easier CCW issuance in particular counties? Or are you trying to change the generalized, popular California view of gun ownership? They are two very, VERY different things.

The first is a political fight. You have to get your guy elected as Sheriff. As tough as that is, it's comparatively straightforward. Look at each anti-gun Sheriff, decide when they are vulnerable, find a viable opponent and raise a few million dollars. It's how we got OC. Repeat as needed. San Diego is probably our best chance right now.

The second is harder. Go after the young people, age 15-25. One on one, introduce them to shooting. Make it enjoyable. If every serious California gun owner - I'd guess there's a hundred thousand or so but it's just a wild guess - teaches 5 or 10 people how to shoot, in a generation or so we'd have political relevance. There's plenty of potential converts out there. The media has already done 80% of the job for us - to the generic 25 year old male or female, Guns Are Sexy and Powerful. We just have to give them the chance to bond with the firearm of their choice.

If there is going to be an effective CalGuns foundation - I'd suggest that you not start off by P*ssing off the core of your potential members. Don't call current CCW holders or gun owners apathetic, don't threaten them, don't insult them. If everyone in CA were JUST LIKE THEM - it would mean you've won. Honestly, you sound like a Marxist in the 60's, ranting about how we have to get the working classes to Wake Up!! and see how oppressed they are.

[DedEye]

Wishfull thinkin there Scooter ! Shasta County (89% white 72% republican) where do you live ?

Shasta County: 179,951. 89% white.
Santa Clara County: 1,731,281. 63.0% white.

Shasta County's percentages seem pretty irrelevant.

[bwiese]

I just now was having lunch, here in the most liberal zipcode in Southern California, with a friend of mine from San Francisco. She's a gun owner, non-white, non-religious, non-straight, and she also is not an NRA member because she feels it is Republican aligned and her values won't fit in there.

Perhaps there's that tinge to it as a nat'l org but statewide, the CA NRA leadership actually has to talk to/work with more Democrats than Republicans ;)

CA NRA leadership is agnostic as to party. There are some very far left folks that CA NRA has stood behind because these folks stood behind gunrights.



I hope that the CalGuns foundation can effectively reach out to gun owners like her.

Without speaking officially for CGF, CGF is not designed to replace or even supplant Calif NRA or become 'yet another gun org' (CRPA GOC CAFR SCI PP etc). That's been half our problem, actually.

While various aspects of CGF are undergoing definition & focus, CGF's purpose veers more to the legal-educational-defense-regulatory side. CGF, as a 501(c)(3), cannot be a political advocacy organization.

[Gator Monroe]

Shasta County: 179,951. 89% white.
Santa Clara County: 1,731,281. 63.0% white.

Shasta County's percentages seem pretty irrelevant.

Does that indicate that there are 2 times more % Demorats in Santa Clara county than republicans in Santa Clara county ? Or More White Democrats ?

[Python2]

Now that I have found it, i believe the 87% majority in your county is Pinoy :D

Santa Clara County? Highly doubt it. If you say Daly City, Hercules, Vallejo or Union City.... maybe:)

[bulgron]

Does that indicate that there are 2 times more % Demorats in Santa Clara county than republicans in Santa Clara county ? Or More White Democrats ?

I don't know if you can actually learn all that much about Santa Clara County's politics by the percentage of whites here. For one thing, a huge chunk of this county are immigrants here on green cards (high tech) who can't even vote anyway. Plenty of those people are from Europe and Russia and so count as 'white'. A lot more of them also come from India and the Pac Rim and so count as "not white."

I've been here since 1989, with a brief hiatus in Santa Cruz county, and what I've learned is that race is not a very good predictor of politics here.

That said, this county tends to run very heavily to Democrats. That doesn't necessarily mean anti-gun, by the way. It just means people vote for the Democrat package, which as it turns out is anti-gun as a second or third tier priority. Lots of people don't even think about guns here. And some who do can easily be swung over to our side of the fence with the right arguments. That doesn't mean I've been able to get anyone to the range (heck, I can hardly get me to the range a lot of the time :D ), but it does mean that when anti gun legislation pops up on Sacramento I at least gets nods of sympathy from people who understand my priorities.

[bwiese]

I don't know if you can actually learn all that much about Santa Clara County's politics by the percentage of whites here. ...

That said, this county tends to run very heavily to Democrats. That doesn't necessarily mean anti-gun, by the way. It just means people vote for the Democrat package, which as it turns out is anti-gun as a second or third tier priority.

Correct. This is mostly because the CA Republican party has self-destructed into irrelevancy.... whether or not it's true, the metro area mental perception of California R's has strayed from one of minimal-gov't fiscal prudency over to something like "let's beat a queer so we can teach Creationism in the schools". That's a real brilliant way of keeping and retaining statewide office - so much so, suburban middle-class educated homeowners are willing to PAY money to not vote Republican.

[Gator Monroe]

Correct. This is mostly because the CA Republican party has self-destructed into irrelevancy.... whether or not it's true, the metro area mental perception of California R's has strayed from one of minimal-gov't fiscal prudency over to something like "let's beat a queer so we can teach Creationism in the schools". That's a real brilliant way of keeping and retaining statewide office - so much so, suburban middle-class educated homeowners are willing to PAY money to not vote Republican.

And Jewish Suburban Middle -Class Educateted liberal homeowners Pay money to a party that has a deep seated hatred of the Tiny Jewish State (Israel) and demand Divestment, Call Israel "the New South Africa" and think that the Dove movement should prevail and get the Israeli government to Give up East Jerusalem ...

[razorx]

I'm also in the "I support gun rights strongly but am repulsed by the NRA". Not so repulsed that I'm not a dedicated member though.

I just now was having lunch, here in the most liberal zipcode in Southern California, with a friend of mine from San Francisco. She's a gun owner, non-white, non-religious, non-straight, and she also is not an NRA member because she feels it is Republican aligned and her values won't fit in there.

I hope that the CalGuns foundation can effectively reach out to gun owners like her. That's the only way we're going to get on track to turning things around in this state. We're losing not because there aren't gun owners here, but because the NRA is unable to connect with them.

Precisely. It is reaching that type of person which hinges overall success of gun rights without alienating the base.

[bwiese]

And Jewish Suburban Middle -Class Educateted liberal homeowners Pay money to a party that has a deep seated hatred of the Tiny Jewish State (Israel) and demand Divestment, Call Israel "the New South Africa" and think that the Dove movement should prevail and get the Israeli government to Give up East Jerusalem ...


I don't even know how to respond to this, esp as this is a CA-related firearms topic and the matters you have brought up (as usual) are irrelevant.

[razorx]

...Without speaking officially for CGF, CGF is not designed to replace or even supplant Calif NRA or become 'yet another gun org' (CRPA GOC CAFR SCI PP etc). That's been half our problem, actually.

While various aspects of CGF are undergoing definition & focus, CGF's purpose veers more to the legal-educational-defense-regulatory side. CGF, as a 501(c)(3), cannot be a political advocacy organization.

That is where it needs to sit since education is really the key here. Education charter can encompass 90% of what it takes to make the necessary changes. This can even include material such as www.glassbooth.com approaches.

I don't believe in "endorsements" or "contributions" for this type of foundation so the model you have selected seems to make perfect sense. Need to stay out of the fray to keep from the natural tendencies of political polarization which would kill developing a broad support base.

Honestly, the days of throwing money at politicians to get them or keep them in power is lessening as media switches over to the net. The big three, now five, now 7, now N do not control the "peasants" any longer. Need to go after the people directly which starts with the youth. Meaning cruel reality is to disassociate from NRA as much as possible or the message will be drowned with the inherited baggage from that relationship.

[justakid]

Posts mentioning justakids name have been removed.

As an aside Princess has not been banned but may have some trouble re-logging in. It seems they changed their email address to one that does not exist and so can not receive the verification email.

They have effectively banned themselves in the short term.

If you are reading this and can abide by the rules as listed and explained I can restore your screen name and title and also repair your email address and status.
Use the 'Contact Us' button at the bottom of every page to email me.


I have no trouble logging in. no need to contact you.

[Soldier415]

I have no trouble logging in. no need to contact you.

Your sig explains your posts

[Kestryll]

I have no trouble logging in. no need to contact you.

I reset all your info, log in, email, account status and name this evening at 5:00pm.
I would hope you had no problems after that.

[Gator Monroe]

I don't even know how to respond to this, esp as this is a CA-related firearms topic and the matters you have brought up (as usual) are irrelevant.

The way Right leaning posters are becoming Irrelevant around the Liberal infested Firearms forums ?:confused::sleeping:

[CoinStar]

The way Right leaning posters are becoming Irrelevant around the Liberal infested Firearms forums ?:confused::sleeping:

You obviously never witnessed the genesis of CalGuns itself. There wasn't always a lot of cozy warmth expressed for those with a progressive take on non-gun issues.

What's ironic is that on a thread topic dedicated to formulating ideas to get more gun nuts involved in progun activism, you're griping (or seem to be) about the fact that the set of folks taking an active part in firearms discussions is becoming more politically diverse.

That's priceless.

[CoinStar]

I see four categories of why gun owners are not involved:


They support the ideas but apathetic and don't care enough to take action
They support owning guns but are repulsed by the NRA
A strange category: gun owners who don't support gun rights. I know quite a few of these in LA.
They are hypocrites like Sylvester Stallone and Diane Feinstein: gun owners who are actively hostile to gun rights




I think you forgot the class of those who are just ignorant of the situation.

As surprised as I am to learn that the most unexpected people I know are in fact gun owners, I'm even more so surprised when I realize how out of touch they are with the laws and political activity surrounding the issue.

[hoffmang]

The strongest pro-gun converts I've caused are the ones who just can't believe that the State is as silly as it is. Phrases along the lines of "you have to do what to buy a gun?"

-Gene

[CavTrooper]

Correct. This is mostly because the CA Republican party has self-destructed into irrelevancy.... whether or not it's true, the metro area mental perception of California R's has strayed from one of minimal-gov't fiscal prudency over to something like "let's beat a queer so we can teach Creationism in the schools". That's a real brilliant way of keeping and retaining statewide office - so much so, suburban middle-class educated homeowners are willing to PAY money to not vote Republican.

This line of thought may be a big reason why one side cannot come to terms with the other. The Liberal image of Republicans is this way and the Republican image of Liberals being "lets smoke dope, molest children, burn the Flag and go worship Stalin!"
When Democrats can finally come to terms with how horribly theyve destroyed this once great state, they might actually be driven to a more "right" thinking mindset and actually vote themselves out of this cesspool theyve created. Instead Liberals/Democrats are so rabidly anti-Republican they work themselves into a frenzy to shout and vote down anything even remotely associated with the R- party theyve earned themselves this whole freaking mess they call a State.

to add:

Also, the perception of a strong anti-sportsmen sentiment among a large portion of CA gun owners does nothing to bring people together. The "mall-ninjas" among us create a poor image in the eyes of some, the "down with the governmnt!" poser crowd drive serious shooters away, and the " I am way more 2A than you" attitude (a thing Ive noticed here in CA and not anywhere else), makes some folks just plain sick.

Suck up the attitudes, show some humility along with backbone and I belive more folks would be inclined to come together for the cause.

Some of it may be apathy, but some of it (IMO) may be embarrasment of being associated with groups (or people) one normally wouldnt. Kinda like Illnever admit to beeing friends with a Navy guy... just wouldnt look right!:eek:

[.22guy]

It truly never ceases to amaze me the way gun owners will divide themselves and bicker like small children. Truly freaking amazing.

Join the freaking NRA, and get involved. Make some phone calls, send some letters, get your friends to join. Is the NRA perfect? Of course not. But it's biggest team in the league.

We face a tireless enemy and possibly an endless fight. Divided we will fall, gentlemen.

Some of what I just typed was probably cliche, but we need to get united and fight!

[bwiese]

22guy, you've got it.

[razorx]

I agree that joining the NRA is probably the best thing to do or, least worst so to speak at this stage. However... NRA is incapable of reaching across and creating broad participation in this area of gun rights. As in epic fail. As in impossible. All the letter writing is pointless. All of the dinner based lobbying is pointless. All of the old style traditional approaches for "change" are pointless. Get out and "vote" is also, in the long run, pointless. Mindshare is everything. Using a block vote can provide temporary battle wins but if that is the sole focus, then the long-term campaign is over.

What is required more than anything, is education, education, and more education without polarization and to stop feeding the negative stereotypes around gun ownership that have been allowed to develop. Even defending in court critical gun rights cases should be done not for "fairness" but from the criteria of which case will deliver the most effective educational message. This is a 20 year program at the minimum which should have specific goals and milestones along the way driven by an execution plan with it's cornerstone as education starting with the youth. We could win every court case on the basis of the constitution, and at the end of the day, it will still be pointless. The American public has to be brought around and probably the only way is to raise a new generation outside of the traditional base.

Having said "pointless" to emphasize a strategic point, that's not quite true. It is a necessary tactical defensive strategy because that is all we have. My own point of view is the recognition that NRA is primarily a holding/losing action, it will not advance the principles of individual right to self-protection with properly effective means since it will not be able to mobilize a broad support base that will prevent "properly effective" from being regulated to a government approved level of minimum protection. The real issue is government intrusion into a family's right to determine what effective self-protection consists of, firearms are, in a way, just a vehicle for that dialogue to take place.

There has been mention of other organizations that are gun rights oriented vs. hunting. California is the key proving ground for gun rights and influencing long-term mindshare for the rest of the nation, but these organizations are rarely ever mentioned on Calguns which is concerning. Which is why I firmly believe the charter behind CGF should be education as it's over-riding principle that guides every activity. If it does not serve to educate, not worth doing.

Think Big with baby steps and realistic expectations.

Shoot Bambi.

[hoffmang]

CGF has only a couple reasons to exist:

1. Education.

2. Legal Defense.

3. Select Legal Offense.

Everything else is outside of the scope of CGF.

-Gene

[AfricanHunter]

to add:

Also, the perception of a strong anti-sportsmen sentiment among a large portion of CA gun owners does nothing to bring people together. The "mall-ninjas" among us create a poor image in the eyes of some, the "down with the governmnt!" poser crowd drive serious shooters away, and the " I am way more 2A than you" attitude (a thing Ive noticed here in CA and not anywhere else), makes some folks just plain sick.

Suck up the attitudes, show some humility along with backbone and I belive more folks would be inclined to come together for the cause.



I agree

[Davidwhitewolf]

I look forward to the day when it makes both political and financial sense to set up big freeway billboards at the OR and NV borders with pics of CA-compliant ARs and the words "LEGAL IN CA" and "CALGUNS: Defending Your Firearms Rights Since 20XX. Contribute Now!"

[Davidwhitewolf]

And David Codrea's issues with this board aside, I think his takeoff on the "Burma Shave" series of billboards would be perfect to see every time you entered California on a major freeway:

Dianne Feinstein

Has her gun

She just won't

Let you have one

CALGUNS: Defending Your Firearms Rights, etc., etc.

[GuyW]

I don't even know how to respond to this, esp as this is a CA-related firearms topic and the matters you have brought up (as usual) are irrelevant.

Yeah, like your post about the "perception of California R's has strayed from one of minimal-gov't fiscal prudency over to something like "let's beat a queer so we can teach Creationism in the schools" IS relevant?

[bwiese]

Yeah, like your post about the "perception of California R's has strayed from one of minimal-gov't fiscal prudency over to something like "let's beat a queer so we can teach Creationism in the schools" IS relevant?

Yes, because it relates directly to issues of Republican inelectibility to statewide office and relation of Rs to gun politics in CA, whereas the other poster's unreadable posts about Jews & Israel had zero bearing.

[artherd]

There has been mention of other organizations that are gun rights oriented vs. hunting. California is the key proving ground for gun rights and influencing long-term mindshare for the rest of the nation, but these organizations are rarely ever mentioned on Calguns which is concerning. Which is why I firmly believe the charter behind CGF should be education as it's over-riding principle that guides every activity. If it does not serve to educate, not worth doing.


I think you are going to like how our charter reads...

[Gator Monroe]

Yeah, like your post about the "perception of California R's has strayed from one of minimal-gov't fiscal prudency over to something like "let's beat a queer so we can teach Creationism in the schools" IS relevant?

Ditto !

[Gator Monroe]

This line of thought may be a big reason why one side cannot come to terms with the other. The Liberal image of Republicans is this way and the Republican image of Liberals being "lets smoke dope, molest children, burn the Flag and go worship Stalin!"
When Democrats can finally come to terms with how horribly theyve destroyed this once great state, they might actually be driven to a more "right" thinking mindset and actually vote themselves out of this cesspool theyve created. Instead Liberals/Democrats are so rabidly anti-Republican they work themselves into a frenzy to shout and vote down anything even remotely associated with the R- party theyve earned themselves this whole freaking mess they call a State.

to add:

Also, the perception of a strong anti-sportsmen sentiment among a large portion of CA gun owners does nothing to bring people together. The "mall-ninjas" among us create a poor image in the eyes of some, the "down with the governmnt!" poser crowd drive serious shooters away, and the " I am way more 2A than you" attitude (a thing Ive noticed here in CA and not anywhere else), makes some folks just plain sick.

Suck up the attitudes, show some humility along with backbone and I belive more folks would be inclined to come together for the cause.

Some of it may be apathy, but some of it (IMO) may be embarrasment of being associated with groups (or people) one normally wouldnt. Kinda like Illnever admit to beeing friends with a Navy guy... just wouldnt look right!:eek:
+1 I think:rolleyes:

[Gator Monroe]

My state Reps & Congressman are GOP (Shasta County) so Republicans are Electable in PRK !:sleeping: