More Motivation to Increase CCW Issuance w/Ultimate Goal of "Shall Issue"

[Paladin]

Unfortunately, Meredith made a several fatal errors, such as (1) being a female and hiking alone, (2) joining a male stranger she met on the trail, (3) not having a CCW (both GA and FL are "Shall Issue"), (4) believing the BG when he said he just wanted her money, and (5) allowing him to put her in his vehicle and take her away.

Georgia Bureau of Investigation agent Clay Bridges said she did "everything she was supposed to do to stay alive", yet he does not mention those 5 obvious mistakes I pointed out. He goes on to say, "and we didn't get there in time." That is just the latest example of what my sig line says: "When you have only seconds to live, the police are only minutes away." Some LEOs like to feel like they're some invisible "thin, blue line" that surrounds and protects society from the BGs. In fact, they're just a bunch of trained individuals w/badges, guns, and radios who may or may not be around when and where you are attacked. The truth is, for the vast majority of every day, protecting your life is your own responsibility.

Note how the AP article does NOT state whether the "north Georgia mountains" "near the Appalachian Trail in Union County" where Emerson was attacked was a state/national park/forest or whether the "forest" where the FL woman was killed by Hilton was a state/national park/forest. If either was, I guess AP might be afraid to provide support for the Bush Admin's plan to allow CCWs in national parks by showing that public parks/forests aren't somehow immune to the evils that occur in the rest of society. (College chancellors and professors have a similar utopian fantasies re their "Ivory Towers.")

Also note that the article does not mention why Hilton says they spent "several good days together." If he also raped her (and/or the FL woman), it is not mentioned. Even though that question is critical to whether the accused qualifies for the death penalty, I've noticed that news sources commonly no longer mention that crime when the victim is also murdered.

Use this article and others like it to show to your wives, sisters, and daughters that evil is real and that prudence is wise.

This, and similar cases, are perfect examples of why pushing for increased issuance of CCWs is a MUCH HIGHER priority to me than repealing the CA AWB. The unique features of an AW (vs a LAR or bolt gun) are EXTREMELY RARELY needed to save your life in modern America, whereas cases where a CCW could have easily turned the tables happen regularly.

*****

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23769881/

http://msnbcmedia4.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photo_StoryLevel/080323/080323-emrson-hmed-3p.widec.jpg


http://msnbcmedia3.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photo_StoryLevel/080323/080323-hilton-bcol-3p.standard.jpg


Killer says female hiker fought him to the end
Drifter’s confession shows 24-year-old victim ‘nearly got the best of him’

updated 2:56 p.m. PT, Sun., March. 23, 2008

ATLANTA - Meredith Emerson used her wits and martial arts training when she was attacked in the north Georgia mountains by a drifter who eventually killed and decapitated her, the convicted killer told investigators.

Gary Michael Hilton described his four days with Emerson, and how she fought him from the moment he tried to overpower her as she hiked with her dog, Ella, according to the interviews that The Atlanta Journal-Constitution obtained from the Georgia Bureau of Investigation.

"She was doing everything she could to stay alive," GBI Director Vernon Keenan told the newspaper. "It's not something you can train for. Instinct kicks in ... She nearly got the best of him. She's very much a hero."

Hilton pleaded guilty to charges he killed Emerson and was sentenced to life in prison with the possibility of parole after 30 years. He had agreed to lead investigators to her body if prosecutors didn't seek the death penalty. He also has been indicted in Florida in the slaying of another woman whose decapitated body was found in a forest on Dec. 15.

He told investigators he targeted the 24-year-old University of Georgia graduate because she was a woman.

For a time, they had hiked together on New Year's Day near the Appalachian Trail in Union County, but the 61-year-old Hilton couldn't keep up.

When Emerson turned and headed back down the trail, Hilton was waiting with a military-style knife. He demanded her ATM card and Emerson immediately went on the defensive, grabbing the blade and a baton Hilton used to counter her struggle.

"She wouldn't stop," Hilton told investigators. "She wouldn't stop fighting. And yelling at the same time. So I needed to both control her and silence her."

Police: ‘We didn’t get there in time’

Hilton said he did that by punching her, blackening both her eyes and possibly breaking her nose. He said the blows also broke his hand.

When he thought he had worn her down, Emerson fought him again, he said.

Hilton said he calmed her down by telling her that he just wanted her credit card and PIN number, then avoided established trails as he led Emerson back down from the mountains and placed Emerson and her dog in his van.

Emerson bought herself three days by giving Hilton the wrong PIN for her ATM card, telling him each time that the numbers were correct.

"That's the one thing that broke my heart in this case," said GBI agent Clay Bridges, who interviewed Hilton. "She was doing everything she was supposed to do to stay alive, and we didn't get there in time."

On the day Hilton killed Emerson, he told her "she was going home." He secured her to a tree, walked back to his van to collect himself and make coffee, and when he returned, he said, Emerson told him: "I was afraid you weren't coming back."

He said he walked behind her and hit her several times with the handle from a car jack.

Hilton said he couldn't bring himself to kill Emerson's dog. When Bridges asked if Hilton had the same equivocations about Emerson, Hilton described the experience as "surreal."

"It was hard," Hilton told the investigator. "You gotta remember we had spent several good days together."

[bulgron]

I know it's low-tech of me to say so, but the prevailing wisdom on many wilderness & survival forums you'll find around the web is that a good strong hiking staff is the best defense against most threats you'll encounter in the wilderness. It gives you reach, can be lethal if you know what you're doing with it, and has the advantage of always being in your hands. Plus, in wilderness locations where you aren't allowed to carry a weapon, it's highly innocuous and unlikely to get LEO's attention.

Even if it isn't enough to overcome a given threat, it can buy you time to pull that concealed handgun hiding under your shirt tail.

There are many things we don't know about this story, but my guess is if she'd had a strong hiking staff and a bit of training with it (she was already into martial arts, so why not?) she probably would have put the beat down on the guy. Certainly a 5' hiking staff beats a knife, all skill levels being equal.

All in all, a sad story about a woman who trusted too much and then wasn't quite strong enough to overcome the subsequent harm from that one little mistake.

[CCWFacts]

This, and similar cases, are perfect examples of why pushing for increased issuance of CCWs is a MUCH HIGHER priority to me than repealing the CA AWB. The unique features of an AW (vs a LAR or bolt gun) are EXTREMELY RARELY needed to save your life in modern America, whereas cases where a CCW could have easily turned the tables, happen regularly.

I feel exactly the same way about priorities. Compared to CCW, all the other stuff is way way down on my priority list, because CCW reform is the one thing that will start saving lives immediately when it comes into effect. AWB repeals and other things like that don't have any immediate real-world impact on saving lives.

And as a side note, it is my observation that, in the 40 other states that have had it, CCW reform seems to act as a "vaccine" against any other gun control. No state that has gone shall-issue has gone on to pass any significant gun control laws.

[M. Sage]

I really don't understand how people go into the wilderness without SOME kind of weapon. At the least a knife, c'mon...

Very sad story.

[DedEye]

Sad. I wonder though if retreat in this case may have been more effective. According to the article Hilton was having trouble keeping up. If that were the case, couldn't she have outrun him?

[M. Sage]

She was out-hiking him. In a short sprint, the victor can change. I might be able to out-sprint people that can out-hike me, or I might be able to out-hike people that can leave me in the dust if I lunge at them.

Stamina has more to do with making good time hiking. Keeping your pace up, just keeping going. Retreat may or may not have worked. I'm sure after waiting for a while, he was well-rested, and after hiking all that distance, she wasn't. Retreat might have been impractical...

[CowboyShooter]

what the heck was her dog doing during all of this? sitting there wagging his tail??? :confused:

[Rob P.]

The title of this thread is misleading. YOU DO NOT NEED A CCW to carry a firearm while hiking (with exceptions that prevent even CCW) so saying that if she had a CCW she'd have been OK is misleading. Ditto for saying/implying that CCW would have saved her since even OC could possibly have been sufficient. She needed a weapon, not a concealed weapon.

ANYONE who goes into the wild without a weapon of some sort needs educating. The wilderness is filled with unmarked graves of defenseless people. This story is just one more in a long list that spans eons.

[Liberty1]

Was any part of the trail National or State Park "gun free zone". Georga also has many restrictions to carrying.

And no offence to my brothers in blue but I like to say we are great armed uniformed historians when it come to documenting crime.

Support private self defense gun carry!

[bulgron]

Meredith Emerson was hiking on Blood Mountain, Georgia. Blood Mountain is a part of the Appalachian trail, and is a designated Federal Wilderness Area. She was also hiking near Vogel State Park. It took a lot of digging, but I finally discovered that Vogel State Park prohibits all weapons (http://gastateparks.org/net/content/page.aspx?s=14493.0.1.5). Given what I know about the Appalachian Trail and attitudes about weapons there, I'm guessing that firearms are also prohibited in the Blood Mountain Wilderness Area. (Whether you can carry a firearm in a designated wilderness area seems to be decided by Forest Service regulations, which I can't seem to find online.)

As for the dog, many dogs will not attack and defend their owner against an aggressor. Dogs are great early warning systems, but unless they're an aggressive breed with some training, you can't expect them to actually back you up.

[Rob P.]

Meredith Emerson was hiking on Blood Mountain, Georgia. Blood Mountain is a part of the Appalachian trail, and is a designated Federal Wilderness Area. She was also hiking near Vogel State Park. It took a lot of digging, but I finally discovered that Vogel State Park prohibits all weapons (http://gastateparks.org/net/content/page.aspx?s=14493.0.1.5). Given what I know about the Appalachian Trail and attitudes about weapons there, I'm guessing that firearms are also prohibited in the Blood Mountain Wilderness Area. (Whether you can carry a firearm in a designated wilderness area seems to be decided by Forest Service regulations, which I can't seem to find online.)

As for the dog, many dogs will not attack and defend their owner against an aggressor. Dogs are great early warning systems, but unless they're an aggressive breed with some training, you can't expect them to actually back you up.

So, again my comment on the title being misleading is supported. Since all weapons were prohibited, a CCW would have been of no use.

Rather than CCW we need to get legislators to understand the premise of Heller. That people are allowed to be armed for self defense and that gun control laws which ban firearms are unconstitutional. CCW does not come under this banner and is irrelevant to the understand of self defense.

[bulgron]

Hmmm.... I'm digging a little more here. As far as I can tell, a CCW in Georgia makes it legal for you to carry in a state park. In Georgia, any National Forest Land not is use as a Wildlife Management Area is OK to carry open or concealed.

However, in Georgia a local city can prevent CCW in city parks if they are so-inclined.

I got my information from here (http://www.georgiapacking.org/gflnol.php).

It looks like had Ms. Emerson been self-defense minded enough to get a CCW and then carry, she would have been OK to do that in the place where she was hiking. I think therefore the originally point of this thread is still quite on-target.

We need shall-issue CCW in this state. It's far more critical than the ability to own scary rifles. However, my take on things in this state is that it's easier (via the courts) to get scary rifles made available again, than it is to get shall-issue CCW.

[acolytes]

what the heck was her dog doing during all of this? sitting there wagging his tail??? :confused:

Thats what i was thinking. Maybe it wasnt a big dog, or it just ran around barking? The dog in the pic doesnt look too mean.

[yellowfin]

There are ways to apply in issuing counties, such as renting an apartment or a room there. If you can do so, you should.

[1911A-1Fan]

It pays to keep your distance, physically, from strangers, and the best survival skill is still opening up some distance and running.

[CoinStar]

Ironically, Hilton faced charges in the past of carrying without a permit (among other things).

Rather than politicize this poor girl's death and make soapbox pleadings for more liberalized concealed carry because of it, had Hilton been in jail for any one of the numerous crimes in his past, it's likely Emerson would've never met up with him. That alone would've saved her life.

With all due respect to those participating, I find it ghoulish to use this story in this sort of context. I know it wasn't intended that way, but it is how it comes off. JMO.

[bulgron]

There are ways to apply in issuing counties, such as renting an apartment or a room there. If you can do so, you should.

Does anyone know of a county in California that will definitely issue to part-time residents who are just renting? PM me if you don't feel comfortable discussing it openly. My research so far shows that counties like to issue only to actual residents (i.e. people who's primary residence is in that county).

[nic]

What also amazes me is that the guy is getting any possiblity of parole. My feelings on how a guy like this should be treated would not be family-friendly, but suffice it to say no one who commits crimes like he has should be ever allowed out into society again.
On a related note, I'm very confused about the laws re: carrying firearms while hiking. My g/f and I are often in the trails up around my area (LA/Pasadena) and I've always carried a knife, but what's the deal with carrying firearms?
-Nic

[bulgron]

On a related note, I'm very confused about the laws re: carrying firearms while hiking. My g/f and I are often in the trails up around my area (LA/Pasadena) and I've always carried a knife, but what's the deal with carrying firearms?
-Nic

State & county parks, national parks, national monuments, you can assume that you can't carry there. If you have a CCW I think you can carry in state & county parks, but check the penal code to be sure.

National forests are subject to Forest Service regulations. Usually the answer is 'yes' (open carry is OK), but check with the local Forest Service administration office for complete details. There may be restrictions due to hunting seasons or co-management with state agencies.

BLM land is the same as national forests. Open carry is generally ok, but again check with the local administrative offices for complete details and any local restrictions that might apply.

[Paladin]

The title of this thread is misleading. YOU DO NOT NEED A CCW to carry a firearm while hiking (with exceptions that prevent even CCW) so saying that if she had a CCW she'd have been OK is misleading. Ditto for saying/implying that CCW would have saved her since even OC could possibly have been sufficient. She needed a weapon, not a concealed weapon.Rob, I pointed out 5 errors she made and only one of them stated not having a CCW. I even indirectly pointed out, depending upon where she was hiking, that until Bush gets his admin to change national park regs, that she might not have been able to legally CCW.

If you are advocating OC (either loaded or unloaded), fine, consider that the 6th error she made that could have saved her life. But the way you phrased your post ("The title of this thread is misleading") sounds to me more trollish than constructive. The "motivation" that I spoke of was not that a CCW could have saved her in her particular circumstances, but rather to remind people of the evil characters that live in our midst (a multiple decapitator) and that you NEVER know when you will suddenly need deadly force to save your or someone else's life.

So don't get hung up on the details of this case. I'm not trying to use it as legal precedent for anything. I'm just using it to remind all that we need "Shall Issue" and the more places we can legally carry (on campus, at work, in malls, etc.) the better.

Frankly, I prefer VT carry since, if I have a right to use deadly force anywhere to protect my/others' lives, then by necessary implication I have a right to have deadly force with me 24/7/365. I should not have to rely upon improvised weaponry or bare hands when the time comes and I should not require a license to legally carry. The inherent right of self-defense should trump that. JMO.

[Paladin]

Rather than politicize this poor girl's death and make soapbox pleadings for more liberalized concealed carry because of it, had Hilton been in jail for any one of the numerous crimes in his past, it's likely Emerson would've never met up with him. That alone would've saved her life.

With all due respect to those participating, I find it ghoulish to use this story in this sort of context. I know it wasn't intended that way, but it is how it comes off. JMO.You must have "found it ghoulish" the way Polly Klaas' murder was "politicized" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polly_Klaas which pushed CA to pass our 3-Strikes You're Out law).

You must have "found it ghoulish" the way Megan Kanka's kidnapping, rape, and murder was "politicized" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megan's_Law).

You must have "found it ghoulish" the way Adam Walsh's kidnapping and murder was "politicized" by his father, John Walsh, who also started the TV show America's Most Wanted, which has been instrumental in the capture of almost 1,000 fugitives (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Walsh and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Walsh_Child_Protection_and_Safety_Act and http://www.amw.com/about_amw/john_walsh.cfm).

You must have "found it ghoulish" the way Jessica Lunsford's rape and murder was "politicized" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessica's_Law).

You must have "found it ghoulish" the way Dr Suzanna Hupp "politicized" the murder of her parents at Luby's (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTainp2cY_w and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Hennard) which brought "Shall Issue" to Texas.

Yep, it would have been better if nobody made "soapbox pleadings" after those deaths. :rolleyes:

[M. Sage]

what the heck was her dog doing during all of this? sitting there wagging his tail??? :confused:

Dogs aren't always good for protection. I wouldn't count on either of the dogs in this house helping out if I'm fighting for my life. Not every dog is wired for it.

On a side note, National Wilderness has slightly different rules from National Forest. I've never run into rules or laws against concealed or open carry in a Wilderness.

[CoinStar]

Yep, it would have been better if nobody made "soapbox pleadings" after those deaths. :rolleyes:

Apples and oranges, my friend.

You're asserting that Meredith Emerson's murder somehow illustrates the need for more liberalized CCW laws but the connection is vague. In fact, the connection is entirely something that you formulated.

If it came to light that Emerson had been denied a CCW somewhere in her life, then it would at least be conceivable that she would've been armed --other laws not withstanding, like carrying in a prohibited place-- when she was attacked and thus, such a connection between the two subjects would exist.
(think: Suzanna Hupp)

I've read enough about this case to know that it didn't happen that way so yeah, you're essentially soapboxing on the victim to advance your own political agenda.

[Paladin]

Apples and oranges, my friend.

You're asserting that Meredith Emerson's murder somehow illustrates the need for more liberalized CCW laws but the connection is vague. In fact, the connection is entirely something that you formulated.Meredith had trained in the martial arts. She fought as best she could empty-handed. She kept fighting even after Hilton broke his hand giving her 2 black eyes and a broken nose. She was a fighter. If she were carrying a CCW, I'm confident she would have used it and may have survived and may have saved GA court and prison costs.

For the vast majority of Californians, we don't have a choice -- we will not get issued. We, esp the women in the PRK, are forced to face any "Hiltons" out there unarmed -- not many workplaces in the PRK would tolerate unloaded OC -- regardless of whether we bump into them on a hiking trail or an empty parking garage after working late. Shall Issue will help all of us who want to have a fighting chance in a deadly, reactionary defensive action.

Others here can see that connection. If you still cannot, I can't change that.

If it came to light that Emerson had been denied a CCW somewhere in her life, then it would at least be conceivable that she would've been armed --other laws not withstanding, like carrying in a prohibited place-- when she was attacked and thus, such a connection between the two subjects would exist.
(think: Suzanna Hupp)

I've read enough about this case to know that it didn't happen that way so yeah, you're essentially soapboxing on the victim to advance your own political agenda.As I wrote in post #20 above: The "motivation" that I spoke of was not that a CCW could have saved her in her particular circumstances, but rather to remind people of the evil characters that live in our midst (a multiple decapitator) and that you NEVER know when you will suddenly need deadly force to save your or someone else's life.

Remembering that there are people like Hilton out there who specifically target women should motivate us either because we are women or because we love the women in our lives enough to want them to be able to protect themselves w/a CCW.

If you don't share that motivation and "political agenda," that says a LOT about you.

[Scarecrow Repair]

If she were carrying a CCW, I'm confident she would have used it and may have survived and may have saved GA court and prison costs.

Like he said, unless she had applied and been turned down, or had wanted to apply but didn't because she thought it was hopeless, CCW has nothing to do with her death.

If she had been elsewhere ...

If she had gone hiking some other time ...

If she had been with a group ...

If she had broken the law by carrying anyway ...

If if if ... none of it has anything to do with CCW.

[bulgron]

Like he said, unless she had applied and been turned down, or had wanted to apply but didn't because she thought it was hopeless, CCW has nothing to do with her death.

If she had been elsewhere ...

If she had gone hiking some other time ...

If she had been with a group ...

If she had broken the law by carrying anyway ...

If if if ... none of it has anything to do with CCW.

I don't know if this is true.

Even in the places where CCWs are readily available, issuance rates are only 1% - 3% of the population. The problem is that people just don't think issues of self-defense are important enough to give up a few hours in a classroom, some more time on the range, and then go talk to the issuing authority and get that permit.

People think, "It can't happen to me." So they relax, let their guard down, and then sometimes bad things happen.

So what happened to Meredith Emerson should stand as a cautionary tale, one that should serve as an example of what CAN happen to people, and so explain exactly why it is that some few of us insist on going out into the world with whatever weapons we are legally and conveniently able to carry.

If that tale keeps one person somewhere in this country from suffering a similar fate to Meredith Emerson, then her death will not have been completely in vain.

[CoinStar]

Others here can see that connection. If you still cannot, I can't change that.

Others may be able to create the same connection as you have, yes, but it doesn't disprove what I said. It doesn't even address the point which was that the connection is entirely based on your own speculation and not by actual facts.

I stand by what I said.

As I wrote in post #20 above: The "motivation" that I spoke of was not that a CCW could have saved her in her particular circumstances, but rather to remind people of the evil characters that live in our midst (a multiple decapitator) and that you NEVER know when you will suddenly need deadly force to save your or someone else's life.

Remembering that there are people like Hilton out there who specifically target women should motivate us either because we are women or because we love the women in our lives enough to want them to be able to protect themselves w/a CCW.

If you don't share that motivation and "political agenda," that says a LOT about you.

This is nothing but deflection wrapped in straw arguments and appeals to emotion. All are irrelevant to my point.

I don't debate logical fallacies. Sorry.

[CoinStar]

Like he said, unless she had applied and been turned down, or had wanted to apply but didn't because she thought it was hopeless, CCW has nothing to do with her death.

Right.

There's not even a connection to firearms in this story. That part has been entirely fabricated to make a political statement (one which I agree with but which is irrelevant).

[Wulf]

http://thelawdogfiles.blogspot.com/2008/03/she-was-doing-everything-she-was.html#links