Home defense long gun recommendation needed

[Zeede]

We recently thought we had a home intruder at my townhouse, and while it was fortunate that there wasn't an intruder, it did highlight some problems.

I mostly shoot clays, so I have shotguns with 30" barrels. That didn't work at all on my stairwell, there was just physically no way to "slice the pie". I do have a pistol in .22, but I'm not a good shot with pistols, so I've been trying to find something with a short overall length that I can use for home defense.

The Kel-Tec Sub 2000 is not legal in California, neither is the Beretta CX4 Storm. Both are pistol caliber carbines, which is what I'm looking for, and both are just under 30" overall length, which is important for my stairwell. Too bad this stupid state has outlawed both of these guns.

Right now the only thing I can think of is get a pump shotgun and put a Knoxx stock on it. As long as the whole thing is 27" long when collapsed, it's still legal, but I would like to know what my other options are.

Cameron

[mur]

We recently thought we had a home intruder at my townhouse, and while it was fortunate that there wasn't an intruder, it did highlight some problems.

I mostly shoot clays, so I have shotguns with 30" barrels. That didn't work at all on my stairwell, there was just physically no way to "slice the pie". I do have a pistol in .22, but I'm not a good shot with pistols, so I've been trying to find something with a short overall length that I can use for home defense.

The Kel-Tec Sub 2000 is not legal in California, neither is the Beretta CX4 Storm. Both are pistol caliber carbines, which is what I'm looking for, and both are just under 30" overall length, which is important for my stairwell. Too bad this stupid state has outlawed both of these guns.

Right now the only thing I can think of is get a pump shotgun and put a Knoxx stock on it. As long as the whole thing is 27" long when collapsed, it's still legal, but I would like to know what my other options are.

Cameron

Can you swap out barrels?, If so get an 18" Barrel.
If not you can grab an 870 with 18" pretty cheap these days

[dasmi]

Can't really beat a 12 gauge pump, but if a shotgun isn't your style, how about a lever action rifle in .357 magnum?

[USN CHIEF]

Get a Benelli M4 semi auto Shot gun...

[Patriot]

We recently thought we had a home intruder at my townhouse, and while it was fortunate that there wasn't an intruder, it did highlight some problems.

I mostly shoot clays, so I have shotguns with 30" barrels. That didn't work at all on my stairwell, there was just physically no way to "slice the pie". I do have a pistol in .22, but I'm not a good shot with pistols, so I've been trying to find something with a short overall length that I can use for home defense.

The Kel-Tec Sub 2000 is not legal in California, neither is the Beretta CX4 Storm. Both are pistol caliber carbines, which is what I'm looking for, and both are just under 30" overall length, which is important for my stairwell. Too bad this stupid state has outlawed both of these guns.

Right now the only thing I can think of is get a pump shotgun and put a Knoxx stock on it. As long as the whole thing is 27" long when collapsed, it's still legal, but I would like to know what my other options are.

Cameron

If you want a pistol caliber carbine, consider the Hi-Point 995 in 9mm with a Bullet-Button. It's not ideal, but Lanworld Inc sells them and OAL is ~32 inches. Around 35" options include the M1 Carbine and Marlin 1984 .357/.38, both with 18.5" barrels that could theoretically be shortened (maybe the stock on the 1894 as well).

[Dr Rockso]

If you really want a pistol caliber carbine there's the recently discontinued Ruger PC9 and PC40 that you can still find new (if you look around) or buy used. Or just get an 18" barrel shotgun, which seems to be the more popular approach. Remember to get some buckshot, save the light birdshot loads for the clays.

[troyus]

M1 carbine.

[dfletcher]

Marlin Camp gun in 9 mm (uses S & W 59 magazines) or in 45 ACP. The 9 can be had pretty cheap. If you can find a Ruger 44 semi auto I'd say that would make quite an impression.

City Arms in Pacifica has the Ruger 40.

[Full Clip]

...M1 Carbine ... both with 18.5" barrels that could theoretically be shortened...

Aw, I've modded some mil-surps in my time, but, dude, don't even suggest shortening the barrel of an M1 carbine! :eek:

[Patriot]

Aw, I've modded some mil-surps in my time, but, dude, don't even suggest shortening the barrel of an M1 carbine! :eek:

Heresy, eh? :shock:

[low94noma]

I had a Mossberg 500 I kept for home. Loaded with 8 shells of buckshot in the tube. 18" barrel. I put a pistol grip and side saddle on it. Side saddle held 8 extra on the side. Over 300 shells through it no problem. I would recommend a scope rail. After thats installed, you can put a tri-rail on it and attach a laser and light. Chambering a shell is one thing, when that sob sees that hardware with laser pointed at his chest, he, or she in some cases, will know that there is n game playing.

[Spodeley]

If you go with the M1 Carbine, be aware that softpoints work best to avoid overpenetration, but they're spendy compared to ball ammo. Big-5 just posted a sale locally of M1 Carbines (by Inland) for $999. I'd go the CMP route myself.

[aplinker]

I wouldn't get an M1 Carbine, unless it were CMP.

Your best choices for HD are (accounting for availability and price):

Remington 870/Mossberg 500/590 (the most powerful and versatile and ~$280)
Ruger PC4 (~$400, 40S&W out of a 16" barrel is quite effective)
M1 Carbine ($650+, slightly more effective cartridge than PC4)

The chief's suggestion of a gold-plated hammer, while quite nice, is just very expensive. If you want semi-auto, there are cheaper choices that function just as well.

[1911su16b870]

Remington 870 with 00 law enforcement load buck. ;)

[Patriot]

I wouldn't get an M1 Carbine, unless it were CMP.

Your best choices for HD are (accounting for availability and price):

Remington 870/Mossberg 500/590 (the most powerful and versatile and ~$280)
Ruger PC4 (~$400, 40S&W out of a 16" barrel is quite effective)
M1 Carbine ($650+, slightly more effective cartridge than PC4)

IIRC the Ruger PC4 is similar is size to the M1 Carbine. Also, with CMP eligibility a rack grade carbine is around $450 shipped to one's door; I am uncertain whether you factored transfer costs into the PC4 estimate. Nothing wrong with the PC4 though.:)

[DedEye]

Go for a shotgun with an 18" barrel. I can't think of any reason why you'd want to choose a pistol caliber carbine, and the idea of using a bullet button equipped weapon of any sort for home defense is absurd.

[Patriot]

Go for a shotgun with an 18" barrel. I can't think of any reason why you'd want to choose a pistol caliber carbine, and the idea of using a bullet button equipped weapon of any sort for home defense is absurd.

Tube mags aren't exactly easy to reload under duress either.

OP is concerned with handling in tight locations, and PCC's light weight and relatively short length are assets.

[mymonkeyman]

Shotguns are probably better home defense weapons than pistol caliber carbines because the pellets will not over penetrate as much as even a 9mm.

However, if you do want a pistol caliber carbine, your best bet would be a Ruger PC9 or PC4, as they come completely CA legal (as long as you don't import any 11+ round magazines). You do not want a bullet button on your home defense gun. They are discontinued, but can still be found on auction sites and some online vendors (from police trade ins).

[WokMaster1]

We recently thought we had a home intruder at my townhouse, and while it was fortunate that there wasn't an intruder, it did highlight some problems.

I mostly shoot clays, so I have shotguns with 30" barrels. That didn't work at all on my stairwell, there was just physically no way to "slice the pie". I do have a pistol in .22, but I'm not a good shot with pistols, so I've been trying to find something with a short overall length that I can use for home defense.

The Kel-Tec Sub 2000 is not legal in California, neither is the Beretta CX4 Storm. Both are pistol caliber carbines, which is what I'm looking for, and both are just under 30" overall length, which is important for my stairwell. Too bad this stupid state has outlawed both of these guns.

Right now the only thing I can think of is get a pump shotgun and put a Knoxx stock on it. As long as the whole thing is 27" long when collapsed, it's still legal, but I would like to know what my other options are.

Cameron

all the options have been mention. How about a loving dog(s) to add the extra level of protection & to act as an early warning system? It's a lot more work & responsibilities involved but it sure would motivate an intruder to move to an easier target than risking dog bites.

[elSquid]

If size is an issue, a youth's shotgun might also be an option:

http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/shotguns/model_870/model_870_express_jr.asp

-- Michael

[Omega13device]

Shotguns are probably better home defense weapons than pistol caliber carbines because the pellets will not over penetrate as much as even a 9mm.
Survey says...wrong! Old myth!

You need to spend some time with the Box o' Truth: http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot2.htm

[Kelvrick]

Survey says...wrong! Old myth!

You need to spend some time with the Box o' Truth: http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot2.htm

I'm a fan of #4 buck.

[Zeede]

Wow, I'm overwhelmed with all the quick responses!

As for the shotgun route, I already have an 870 Wingmaster Classic Trap. I could easily buy a 18" barrel and swap them, I guess, but that'd be sort of annoying to swap them everytime I wanted to go to the range with it, but not too bad. I'd just have to remember to swap it back when I put it away for the night.

I'll take a look at the Rugers. I didn't want a rifle cartridge because that's too much for home defense, and I also don't want a bullet-button equipped gun either, for obvious reasons.

Cameron

[mymonkeyman]

Survey says...wrong! Old myth!

You need to spend some time with the Box o' Truth: http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot2.htm

How bout you read the website before you try to argue with me.


Lessons learned:
1. Notice that the #4 and #1 Buck penetrated 6 boards. In previous tests, 9mm, .45 ACP, and M-193 out of an AR all penetrated all 12 boards.

So, it seems that these loads do not "over-penetrate" as much as some have led us to believe.
The Box 'o Truth. (http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm)

The test I cite shows how many walls the round will go through if it does not hit a person. The test you cited shows how much the rounds will hurt bricks after it goes through a couple of walls, a jug of water, and a pine board (which really has nothing to do with the amount of penetration involved in after going some walls and through a person because "ammo must penetrate at least 4 water jugs to reach the 12 inches of penetration into ballistic gelatin" - The Box 'o Truth (http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot38.htm) ).

[BillCA]

Cameron,

I'm also in a townhome residence and I've settled on a 20-gauge 870 pump shotgun loaded with #3 buckshot (20 pellets).

If your townhomes don't have common "living area" walls, this will be much better than a pistol or rifle cartridge for general use. Inside the house I know these 20 pellets don't spread much more than the diameter of a softball. Remember that shotgun pellets will "cut corners" of hallways and get through sheetrock at normal indoor distances.

Additionally, since you mentioned a stairwell, consider the strategic use of one or two night-lights placed on the ground floor. These can be positioned to cast shadows of anyone moving around down below and/or illuminate the bottom of the stairwell. Almost as good is having at least one lamp with an IR sensor that will turn the lamp on if someone is downstairs.

If you think an intruder is inside, you're best bet is to secure the top floor and guard the stairwell and then calling 911. Never try to clear a house by yourself if you think someone is inside (how many, how armed, located where?). It's better to take up a defensive position to protect yourself and family.

[Zeede]

Bill: That's a good point, and for that purpose, my shotguns are fine. Still though, it doesn't sit well with me for some bozo to rob me of my stuff downstairs while I sit helplessly upstairs. Yes, insurance will replace the stuff, but still.

I'd like to get a dog, but it isn't feasible with my living arrangement.

I may just "bite the bullet" and get a pistol in 9mm and spend a bunch of time and money getting really proficient with it. I really didn't want to get into reloading pistol calibers too, but I may have no choice.

Cameron

[tombinghamthegreat]

A shotgun is the way to go as i am sure people have brought up. Did you consider a featureless centerfire semi auto rifle?

[Zeede]

The problem with most centerfire rifles is that they're too long for navigating my stairwell with. I'm not worried about overpenetration mainly because my main concern is stopping the bad guy, and I know something like .223 isn't going to overpenetrate greatly *if* I hit the bad guy.

Ideally something around 29-33" total overall length would be best. I have a .22 bolt action CZ 452 that is 39" long, and it BARELY clears the stairs while slicing the pie. Another 6" of breathing room would be best.

Cameron

[Nodda Duma]

It sounds to me like you are looking for pistol caliber bullet that can be shot in a rifle. You want a rifle that's light weight, easy to maneuver and use. I'd choose the M1 Carbine shooting soft points. It has a surprising amount of knock-down power at short ranges with little over-penetration, false myths about rushing Chinese surviving a hailstorm of carbine bullets aside.

Forget about collectability, or the $1000 pieces of crap at Big 5. Either get a CMP carbine, a good deal on an old beater (ie gunbroker), or a new Auto-Ordnance (which apparently has a good reputation) http://www.auto-ordnance.com/ao_aom110_f.html

Soft point ammo for the Carbine is as expensive or as cheap as any other pistol ammunition.

The M1 Carbine is probably your best bet (best compromise) for a good home defense rifle. OAL is 35.75", but you'll be hunched over it holding it into your shoulder so it'll act like a shorter weapon. BTW, I believe the .223 *will* overpenetrate at the ranges you will experience inside a home. At those ranges it is moving too fast to do what it was designed to do. Shoot a bad guy at close range w/ a .223 and all you'll be left with is a pissed off bad guy with (smaller than) 1/4" holes in him.

-Jason

[Bucc]

If you want a pistol caliber long arm the PC4 is good.
Unless you have 15 round mags hidden in your storage the .40 will serve better than a 9mm.
I also like the .30 Carbine.
Ammo in soft point is pricey though but they are great rifles.
If you did go that way hit the CMP.
If you are a member of the Cali rifle and pistol Assn. or some other approved club and you already do the sporting clays thing you may have been in a match that was CMP approved for their gun buying criteria.
If you are over 60 or a Veteran the shooting qualifications are void.
I think.

[JeffM]

BTW, I believe the .223 *will* overpenetrate at the ranges you will experience inside a home. At those ranges it is moving too fast to do what it was designed to do. Shoot a bad guy at close range w/ a .223 and all you'll be left with is a pissed off bad guy with (smaller than) 1/4" holes in him.

-Jason

You're joking right?

[Omega13device]

How bout you read the website before you try to argue with me.

The Box 'o Truth. (http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm)

The test I cite shows how many walls the round will go through if it does not hit a person. The test you cited shows how much the rounds will hurt bricks after it goes through a couple of walls, a jug of water, and a pine board (which really has nothing to do with the amount of penetration involved in after going some walls and through a person because "ammo must penetrate at least 4 water jugs to reach the 12 inches of penetration into ballistic gelatin" - The Box 'o Truth (http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot38.htm) ).
You didn't give your "preferred scenario" in your comment, you just said it didn't overpenetrate as much as 9mm. In the test I cited, it did. Whatever. Personally I wouldn't be thrilled about using #4 buck with other people in the house knowing that it would go through three walls.

[mymonkeyman]

You didn't give your "preferred scenario" in your comment, you just said it didn't overpenetrate as much as 9mm. In the test I cited, it did. Whatever. Personally I wouldn't be thrilled about using #4 buck with other people in the house knowing that it would go through three walls.


But doesn't 00 Buck penetrate too much in interior walls to be a "safe" load in a home?
Yes, it does penetrate a lot. But any load that is going to be effective will need to penetrate walls to have enough power to penetrate bad guys. If our only concern was to be sure we didn't penetrate walls, we would use BB guns. However, BB guns will not stop bad guys.

Therefore, we must use loads that will STOP bad guys, and this means that they will also penetrate walls. So, be sure you hit the bad guy and do not shoot into walls where loved ones are on the other side.

What gun/round can reliably kill a person and not penetrate 3 walls?

[Experimentalist]

(edit)
Your best choices for HD are (accounting for availability and price):

Remington 870/Mossberg 500/590 (the most powerful and versatile and ~$280)
... (edit)

The chief's suggestion of a gold-plated hammer, while quite nice, is just very expensive. If you want semi-auto, there are cheaper choices that function just as well.

I agree with the above. Except I've heard some complaints that the Remington 1100 mag entrance is a little hard to hit when trying to reload under pressure, if you're considering that as a semi-auto alternative.

It's hard to beat the tactical shotgun from contact out to ~30 yards. I've taken a couple of tactical shotgun classes, and one instructors comments always resonated with me: "Trauma is a good thing. Spread it around". Double ought buckshot does that very well. I believe 9 (?) pellets in .30 caliber with one pull of the trigger.

Get the short barrel to make it handier in confined spaces. In general you don't want to go wandering through the house if you seriously believe there's an intruder. Take a strong position of cover and call 911 instead.

Dedicated weapon lights are an excellent idea, IMHO. You can verify your target if necessary, while keeping both hands directly on the weapon. BTW, if this is at night, understand that flashing a high-intensity light anywhere in the house is likely to be noticed everywhere else in the house. Bad guys will know you're about, and your advantage of surprise will be lost.

[sloguy]

BTW, I believe the .223 *will* overpenetrate at the ranges you will experience inside a home. At those ranges it is moving too fast to do what it was designed to do. Shoot a bad guy at close range w/ a .223 and all you'll be left with is a pissed off bad guy with (smaller than) 1/4" holes in him.

-Jason

what the heck are you talking about? what dolt told you this?

[oaklander]

I like the .30 Carbine with regular capacity mags. Very light and easy to handle, no recoil, not too loud, and about the same firepower as a .357 magnum.

[M. Sage]

If you go with the M1 Carbine, be aware that softpoints don't usually feed reliably.

Fixed it for you. IMO, the M1 Carbine doesn't have enough MV to get much expansion out of a soft point, very little if any in a person-deep target. I honestly don't think they'll help with overpenetration, either. I tried some and they'll go through a telephone pole (was a cut-up one at the range I use to shoot at.)

I had a link some time in the past to a company that loads JHP in .30 Carbine. Pistol-style hollowpoints. I can't find it!

IMO, since the OP is a shotgun-savvy person, I'd suggest a shotgun. Go with what you know best.

+1 on using buckshot and saving the birdshot for birds and clays.

ETA: Oh, and you're not going to find much cover, if any, in the typical residence. Bathtub? Maybe. Plenty of concealment and choke points. As my fellow gamers say "find a good spot to camp" (only with them, "camping" is an insult).

[biscuitninja]

Mosin Nagant! ha ha ha... ok, don't do that... unless you live MILES from the next house.
A shotgun is an excellent choice, a slighly shorter barrel along with some good loads will stop just about anybody. I usually prefer mini bean bags for the first round followed with 00 buck. The mini bags are loaded for high velocity ~450-550 fps.. it WILL hurt.. alot! My only issue is when more than one person comes knocking. The first round(s) will stun the guy... but not stop.

Anyways good luck
-bix

[JimmyD]

Mosin Nagant!

USE THE BAYONET!!:chris:

[Gator Monroe]

Glock 17 , Chinese SKS, Commie Trench gun ( Norinco Clone of American Military shotgun from WW1/WW2...

[Black Majik]

Initially, the PC4 also came to mind. It's a good gun for what you intend to use it for. The gun recoils softly for a .40 cal rifle. It is quite a heavy gun though for what it is.

Also, how about a lever gun in .357? Or .38s if you worry about overpenetration.

[Patriot]

I had a link some time in the past to a company that loads JHP in .30 Carbine. Pistol-style hollowpoints. I can't find it!

I believe Cor-Bon makes DPX .30 Carbine ammo with a 100gr (IIRC) copper hollow point

[M. Sage]

The mini bags are loaded for high velocity ~450-550 fps.. it WILL hurt.. alot!

Hurt? It should be able to break ribs. Now that would hurt... a lot! :43:

[low94noma]

ETA: Oh, and you're not going to find much cover, if any, in the typical residence. Bathtub? Maybe. Plenty of concealment and choke points. As my fellow gamers say "find a good spot to camp" (only with them, "camping" is an insult).
Exactly. Plenty of concealment in a residence, but not too much cover. Make every shot count. You cant miss with double ought buckshot. Well you could, but you probably should not have taken the shot then. Your best bet is a short barreled pump with a light and laser. My Mossberg was pistol gripped and had a side saddle for 6 extra rounds. 8 in the tube was enough but always had 6 extra bad boys just in case. I hope your going to let us know what you end up with:D.

[Zeede]

I own a pump, autoloader and over/under break-action shotgun. What I don't have is a side-by-side, so I started looking for one. Doesn't get any more classic than a side-by-side in hand, standing on your porch and telling the bad guys to get off your property :) . Unfortunately, I'm not sure I'd trust my life, and the lives of my family to the "budget" side-by-sides. The Baikals-now-Remington SPR220's and the Stoeger Couch Guns just don't seem to have a very good reputation. Too bad, there's something undeniably classic and "old Western" about a 20" barreled 12 gauge side-by-side, but good side-by-sides are expensive. I already have shotguns covering trap, skeet and sporting clays, so this one is just going to be for sitting in my home office for emergencies, so I'm not willing to shell out a ton of cash for one. A pistol-caliber carbine is something different, something I don't have. I'd *really* like a bullpup, but those are either too expensive, classified as an assault weapon here in California, or both.

I actually ordered a M1 Garand through the CMP about a month ago (it is my dream gun, but it's obviously way overkill for home defense, more so than anything else I own), so I am aware of the availability of M1 Carbines through them. They just don't really excite me at all, but my list of viable choices is really pathetic and small, so who knows, I might end up going that route.

I will definitely let you folks know what I decide upon. Too bad my business is here, else I'd move to Texas or something. I'm really pissed that I'm not allowed to legally own a gun that would serve my needs best.

Cameron

Edit: If I don't go down the stairs to investigate noises, then obviously the top of my stairwell would be the best place to "hole up" until the cops arrive. And if I stay on the top floor with a gun trained on the stairwell, then length no longer matters. I can use any of my long guns. I just want to have some options in case I do want to go downstairs. It doesn't sit well with me to have no options other than "hide on the top floor and call 911 and hope the cops recover my stuff".

[sloguy]

my list of viable choices is really pathetic and small, so who knows, I might end up going that route.



shot placement is far more important than what you use. a 22lr pistol is a viable option if you can put your shots on target. i say use whatever is 100% reliable and you can hit with. a well placed 22 is better than a cannon that misses.

[Nodda Duma]

what the heck are you talking about? what dolt told you this?

A Marine. Was he wrong?

[aplinker]

A Marine. Was he wrong?

Yes.

[Zeede]

shot placement is far more important than what you use. a 22lr pistol is a viable option if you can put your shots on target. i say use whatever is 100% reliable and you can hit with. a well placed 22 is better than a cannon that misses.
I couldn't agree more, it's just that I think I can place larger caliber shots just as well, if I could find the right platform.

A shotgun, if short enough, would be all I need. I'm already familiar with them, and they have a wide variety of payload options.

Walther makes a bullpup in .22LR, maybe I should take a look at those :D

Cameron

[movie zombie]

Bill: That's a good point, and for that purpose, my shotguns are fine. Still though, it doesn't sit well with me for some bozo to rob me of my stuff downstairs while I sit helplessly upstairs. Yes, insurance will replace the stuff, but still.

Cameron


um, am i wrong or isn't it illegal to shoot someone downstairs who is robbing you if you're safe upstairs with your gun and aren't in immediate danger? it is my understanding that defense of property isn't a defense in court in california. however, if said robber comes up the stairs and doesn't back down when warned, then the shotgun would be adequate.....as now there is a defense of life?


movie zombie

[sloguy]

um, am i wrong or isn't it illegal to shoot someone downstairs who is robbing you if you're safe upstairs with your gun and aren't in immediate danger? it is my understanding that defense of property isn't a defense in court in california. however, if said robber comes up the stairs and doesn't back down when warned, then the shotgun would be adequate.....as now there is a defense of life?


movie zombie

i may be wrong but i dont think theres a duty to retreat in your own home.

[Nodda Duma]

Yes.

Ok. I'll look for some info and see where he led me wrong (or hell, I could have just as easily misheard.)

-Jason

[pottymouth310]

We recently thought we had a home intruder at my townhouse, and while it was fortunate that there wasn't an intruder, it did highlight some problems.

I mostly shoot clays, so I have shotguns with 30" barrels. That didn't work at all on my stairwell, there was just physically no way to "slice the pie". I do have a pistol in .22, but I'm not a good shot with pistols, so I've been trying to find something with a short overall length that I can use for home defense.

The Kel-Tec Sub 2000 is not legal in California, neither is the Beretta CX4 Storm. Both are pistol caliber carbines, which is what I'm looking for, and both are just under 30" overall length, which is important for my stairwell. Too bad this stupid state has outlawed both of these guns.

Right now the only thing I can think of is get a pump shotgun and put a Knoxx stock on it. As long as the whole thing is 27" long when collapsed, it's still legal, but I would like to know what my other options are.

Cameron

Personally, no long gun is a good home defense gun.
Dude, you live in a town home, the walls are made of paper and wood frames. you'll kill the neighbor if you shoot something that flies 2700fps.
In California, best bet is a bat. Once you pull that trigger (even in self defense) there is no turning back. your subjugating yourself to a lot of legal ramification both criminal & civil. Did you know that the DA can charge you (even if your the victim) that you did not properly stored your gun. If you have exotic round in the gun that they can say it was intentional? Even the family members of the assailant can sue you back.
AND... if you have kids? forget it! never have a loaded gun. You'll have child services up your bung-hole soo quick.

overall, I say think about it.
that's my 2cents...:D:D:D

[sloguy]

Personally, no long gun is a good home defense gun.
Dude, you live in a town home, the walls are made of paper and wood frames. you'll kill the neighbor if you shoot something that flies 2700fps.
In California, best bet is a bat. Once you pull that trigger (even in self defense) there is no turning back. your subjugating yourself to a lot of legal ramification both criminal & civil. Did you know that the DA can charge you (even if your the victim) that you did not properly stored your gun. If you have exotic round in the gun that they can say it was intentional? Even the family members of the assailant can sue you back.
AND... if you have kids? forget it! never have a loaded gun. You'll have child services up your bung-hole soo quick.

overall, I say think about it.
that's my 2cents...:D:D:D


could always clear the house with a spear.......

donno how that will look in court.

[Zeede]

Personally, no long gun is a good home defense gun.
Dude, you live in a town home, the walls are made of paper and wood frames. you'll kill the neighbor if you shoot something that flies 2700fps.
In California, best bet is a bat. Once you pull that trigger (even in self defense) there is no turning back. your subjugating yourself to a lot of legal ramification both criminal & civil. Did you know that the DA can charge you (even if your the victim) that you did not properly stored your gun. If you have exotic round in the gun that they can say it was intentional? Even the family members of the assailant can sue you back.
AND... if you have kids? forget it! never have a loaded gun. You'll have child services up your bung-hole soo quick.

overall, I say think about it.
that's my 2cents...:D:D:D

First of all, my shotguns don't fire anything near approaching 2,700 fps. My reloads are #7.5 @ 1,200 fps. Don't forget that with shotshells I can reload rock salt if I really want to. Again, the fact that I have neighbors is a moot point. If I need to shoot someone who is threatening me or my family, I need to shoot a projectile that can penetrate drywall. Unless I'm being attacked by drywall golems, anything that can stop an attacker can go through a wall or two. As someone else pointed out, even if I lived in a regular house it wouldn't matter unless myself or my neighbor had brick walls. And no windows.

Secondly, I have safe, so thanks for the totally pointless comment about kids and guns. Every reloaded shell I have and every firearm is in that safe. Which is behind a deadbolted door when I'm not home. If I go the pistol route I'll get one of those small safes that can fit into a drawer, so I can put it by the nightstand.

If I have to pull the trigger on a bad guy it's because he's a serious threat to myself and/or my family. In which case I don't care about the DA, because at that exact moment in time I care more about not letting any harm come to my family or myself. I want a home defense option that lets me investigate downstairs, not so I can shoot an unarmed intruder who is trying to steal my PlayStation 3, it's so I can apprehend said intruder until the police arrive and send his sorry *** to jail. Don't forget that this is MY house, and I have the advantage of knowing the layout, and I prefer to have an encounter on my terms, whenever possible. Hiding in a closet on the phone to 911 might be the best situation from a legal standpoint, but I have to think about what's best for my family.

If people got the impression I'm looking for an excuse to shoot someone, I'm not. I just plan for the worst, and hope for the best. Worst case scenario is I'm barricaded in the master bedroom with a psycho with a gun breaking in and taking aim at myself, my wife or my daughter. Screw the neighbors, overpenetration and my local DA, I need to drop that S.O.B. right now, and that means 00 buck or a slug. Best case scenario the cops show up and nab the guy before he even makes it upstairs.

Cameron

[M. Sage]

Good for you! You've got it together. IMO, since you've already got a pump shotgun, I'd say the quickest, cheapest and easiest way to get a HD gun is to get an 18" barrel for that. On the plus side, you already know how it works. :D I'm sure you already know it, but whatever you choose; practice practice practice.

There is a lot of odd stuff coming out in this thread, so this isn't aimed at the OP. .223 at close range is effective. It's even more effective if you don't load military FMJ. Expanding or fragmenting bullets are wicked stuff, though I've personally seen FMJ hit 1/4" of weather-beaten plywood at 30 yards and leave a perfectly sideways hole in the paper 6" behind it.

Long guns are/can be excellent HD weapons. They're easier to aim (inside 10 yards, you shouldn't need sights to hit a person-sized target), the only limitation/liability is if you have very tight corners.

Baseball bats are lousy HD weapons. Try swinging one in a doorway, or in a narrow-ish hallway. They're also rendered ineffective by a fast step forward, even if you have the room and time to get a real good wind-up.

Shooting an intruder downstairs might not be the best thing, but I haven't seen any law that would bite you in the butt. You will be sued, of course, but jail shouldn't be an issue. CA law has no duty to retreat inside the home and you have a presumed fear for your life when someone has illegally entered your residence and you're in it. Going down looking to shoot someone is bad. Going down to check on that noise, bringing a gun and winding up shooting someone, not so much.

[movie zombie]

If people got the impression I'm looking for an excuse to shoot someone, I'm not. I just plan for the worst, and hope for the best. Worst case scenario is I'm barricaded in the master bedroom with a psycho with a gun breaking in and taking aim at myself, my wife or my daughter. Screw the neighbors, overpenetration and my local DA, I need to drop that S.O.B. right now, and that means 00 buck or a slug. Best case scenario the cops show up and nab the guy before he even makes it upstairs.

Cameron

will admit i got that impression from the earlier post......

good priorities: people over things.

movie zombie

[pottymouth310]

First of all, my shotguns don't fire anything near approaching 2,700 fps. My reloads are #7.5 @ 1,200 fps. Don't forget that with shotshells I can reload rock salt if I really want to. Again, the fact that I have neighbors is a moot point. If I need to shoot someone who is threatening me or my family, I need to shoot a projectile that can penetrate drywall. Unless I'm being attacked by drywall golems, anything that can stop an attacker can go through a wall or two. As someone else pointed out, even if I lived in a regular house it wouldn't matter unless myself or my neighbor had brick walls. And no windows.

Secondly, I have safe, so thanks for the totally pointless comment about kids and guns. Every reloaded shell I have and every firearm is in that safe. Which is behind a deadbolted door when I'm not home. If I go the pistol route I'll get one of those small safes that can fit into a drawer, so I can put it by the nightstand.

If I have to pull the trigger on a bad guy it's because he's a serious threat to myself and/or my family. In which case I don't care about the DA, because at that exact moment in time I care more about not letting any harm come to my family or myself. I want a home defense option that lets me investigate downstairs, not so I can shoot an unarmed intruder who is trying to steal my PlayStation 3, it's so I can apprehend said intruder until the police arrive and send his sorry *** to jail. Don't forget that this is MY house, and I have the advantage of knowing the layout, and I prefer to have an encounter on my terms, whenever possible. Hiding in a closet on the phone to 911 might be the best situation from a legal standpoint, but I have to think about what's best for my family.

If people got the impression I'm looking for an excuse to shoot someone, I'm not. I just plan for the worst, and hope for the best. Worst case scenario is I'm barricaded in the master bedroom with a psycho with a gun breaking in and taking aim at myself, my wife or my daughter. Screw the neighbors, overpenetration and my local DA, I need to drop that S.O.B. right now, and that means 00 buck or a slug. Best case scenario the cops show up and nab the guy before he even makes it upstairs.

Cameron
A+
I like were your head is at Cameron. your one of the few that thought out what a "home defense" gun is all about. Alot of people watching to much TV think it's macho to be in a shoot out. Based on the 1st post it seemed alittle misleading.

Goodluck to ya....;)

[Zeede]

God willing, all this discussion will never be put into action. But, it might, so, I'd like to be ready if it ever does.

Lever action rifles have been suggested a few times, and some have an overall length of 37.5", which is doable, and is the same length as my 870 would be if I got a 18" barrel for it. I thought about getting a lever action rifle cut down to a shorter barrel (I believe the minimum is 16"?), but then I noticed the 10-shot tubular barrel would have to be shortened too.

Cameron

[kicker72]

870 security model has my vote, cheap and effective. :cool:

[movie zombie]

God willing, all this discussion will never be put into action. But, it might, so, I'd like to be ready if it ever does.

Lever action rifles have been suggested a few times, and some have an overall length of 37.5", which is doable, and is the same length as my 870 would be if I got a 18" barrel for it. I thought about getting a lever action rifle cut down to a shorter barrel (I believe the minimum is 16"?), but then I noticed the 10-shot tubular barrel would have to be shortened too.

Cameron

re lever action: i think legal is 16.25 inches........as that is what the shorter barrel .38/.357's are currently manufactured as. big 5 puts a marlin 1894 lever action on sale for as low as $370 sometimes but it is the one with the 18 inch barrel. the 16.25 barrel rifle is no longer made in the .38/357 calibre but i'm hoping one day to find a used one.

movie zombie

[M. Sage]

16" is minimum barrel length on a rifle, 18" is minimum barrel on a shotgun. Most are made to 16.25" and 18.25" for legal safety reasons. 1/4" isn't a lot of barrel, but it's a cheap way to make sure you avoid felony charges.

Barrel length is measured from the muzzle (remove muzzle device if it's not permanently attached) to the bolt face with the bolt closed.

[Patriot]

FYI - CDNN has Ruger PC4s in their catalog for $370 (good price?) :)

[SR-60]

FYI - CDNN has Ruger PC4s in their catalog for $370 (good price?) :)
I guess that it was a good price. I just called CDNN and they're all gone. :(

[Zeede]

I've decided on this:

http://www.mossberg.com/images/Mossberg_Guns/930/New/50420.jpg

Mossberg 500 Tactical

Cameron

[BillCA]

Now pick up some Federal PowerShok low-recoil 2 3/4" #00 Buckshot (9 pellets, .36 cal at 1140 fps) for home defense use.
Federal Premium 3" #00 buckshot has 15 pellets at 1100 fps but the recoil will be higher.

You'll want to pattern your buckshot load at 5 yards (hallway), 10 yards (large room) and 25 yards (door to street) distances so you know the spread at each distance.

[Fate]

Did you know that the DA can charge you (even if your the victim) that you did not properly stored your gun. If you have exotic round in the gun that they can say it was intentional?
AND... if you have kids? forget it! never have a loaded gun. You'll have child services up your bung-hole soo quick.Wow...so much misinformation in just one post. Congrats.

[Bishop]

Please don't forget to consider attaching a light to your HD shotgun. No, not to be tacticool, or a mall ninja, because you as the law abiding citizen have to properly identify your target. The bad guy can shoot at shadows without fear of hitting a loved one, you need a light.