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guntrust
04-28-2014, 10:43 AM
Right Sector candidate for president wants mass arming of Ukrainians:
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/yarosh-urges-ukrainian-authorities-to-immediately-start-mass-armament-of-ukrainians-345274.html

BabyBen
04-28-2014, 10:54 AM
Smart man.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

riderr
04-28-2014, 11:33 AM
Something tells me he wants to apply this legislation to his proponents only.

guntrust
04-28-2014, 12:44 PM
Something tells me he wants to apply this legislation to his proponents only.

If you are referring to Russian propaganda that the right in Ukraine is racist, fascist, etc., these claims have been debunked thoroughly, as has the false notion (propagated by Buchanan and others) that Ukraine is still a divided country. Much has changed in the last 20 years. Jews in Ukraine are solidly behind the present government.

The Right Sector's Yarosh has urged the adoption of a Swiss-style militia system for some time now.

I follow events there closely on my twitter page @guntrust

riderr
04-28-2014, 1:02 PM
If you are referring to Russian propaganda that the right in Ukraine is racist, fascist, etc., these claims have been debunked thoroughly, as has the false notion (propagated by Buchanan and others) that Ukraine is still a divided country. Much has changed in the last 20 years. Jews in Ukraine are solidly behind the present government.

The Right Sector's Yarosh has urged the adoption of a Swiss-style militia system for some time now.

I follow events there closely on my twitter page @guntrust
Please note, I didn't put labels on any side of the conflict, but you did. I only mentioned (considering the historical reputation of the guy) that he wants his boys to get armed, while never stood for the opponents' right to arm. As a President of the country, he has to make sure his agenda addresses both sides of the conflict, not just his skinhead pawns.
Speaking of who the Ukrainian Jews support. It's a wide open question. I wouldn't bet my money on it.
You are right, many things have changed during the last 23 years. The first one is that the part of Eastern Ukraine is now leaning towards Russia more. Somehow, the miners don't want to be the part of the country under Yarosh's administration.

riderr
04-28-2014, 1:22 PM
Just to add to the point. Here is one of numerous videos from youtube (no Russian propaganda, huh?)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSIOVK1omcA

Since you follow the news closely you don't need the translation, right? So, you want these guys to get armed and do what they are screaming out?

For those who are less proficient in Ukrainian, their two slogans are
- Hang Russians (obviously a hate crime)
- Whoever Doesn't Jump Is a Russian (it's a copy from the popular Cuban slogan Whoever Doesn't Jump Is a Yankee)

So, it's pretty much like a situation, when a top KKK leader would vow for the right to get full-auto weapons, grenade launchers, etc. Would he mean all the colors or "white brothers" only? Think about it.

guntrust
04-28-2014, 1:31 PM
Please note, I didn't put labels on any side of the conflict, but you did. I only mentioned (considering the historical reputation of the guy) that he wants his boys to get armed, while never stood for the opponents' right to arm. As a President of the country, he has to make sure his agenda addresses both sides of the conflict, not just his skinhead pawns.
Speaking of who the Ukrainian Jews support. It's a wide open question. I wouldn't bet my money on it.
You are right, many things have changed during the last 23 years. The first one is that the part of Eastern Ukraine is now leaning towards Russia more. Somehow, the miners don't want to be the part of the country under Yarosh's administration.

Much of what you say here is false. By definition, his current and past support of a Swiss-style system of widespread gun ownership means he has supported his opponents' RKBA. Every poll shows massive support for Ukraine and dwindling support for joining Russia, even among the 17% or so of Ukrainians who are ethnic Russian, mostly in the East (my wife's family included). Yes, there are differences and a desire for more autonomy. But the people in Europe's largest country solidly support a united Ukraine and over the last several decades, and especially since Putin's invasion, are less and less enamored of the idea of living under Russia's thumb.

Europe's largest country wants to be free, and our Russian friends tend to be oblivious of the changes there--or nationalism blinds them. Ukrainians have no problem recognizing Russia for what it is, and what it is rapidly becoming in the power vacuum as trembling Europeans cut deals.

Moemoe1
04-28-2014, 1:32 PM
Man! It's gonna get crazy in Ukraine soon! Hopefully the US doesn't interfere!

tankarian
04-28-2014, 1:33 PM
Arming and readying the entire 16-50 year old population for a guerrilla war against the Russian invaders is the only way Ukraine can prevent the dismemberment of their country.
I hope they learned their lesson: never, ever trust Western countries to be the guarantors of your territorial integrity. If Ukrainians would have kept their nukes Putin would have never attempted any act of aggression against Ukraine.

guntrust
04-28-2014, 1:37 PM
Just to add to the point. Here is one of numerous videos from youtube (no Russian propaganda, huh?)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSIOVK1omcA

Since you follow the news closely you don't need the translation, right? So, you want these guys to get armed and do what they are screaming out?

For those who are less proficient in Ukrainian, their two slogans are
- Hang Russians (obviously a hate crime)
- Whoever Doesn't Jump Is a Russian (it's a copy from the popular Cuban slogan Whoever Doesn't Jump Is a Yankee)

So, it's pretty much like a situation, when a top KKK leader would vow for the right to get full-auto weapons, grenade launchers, etc. Would he mean all the colors or "white brothers" only? Think about it.

maybe that's the one with the same NTV actor playing a protester in five other videos? I tweeted a story on that awhile back if you want to look.

I'm not going to waste time responding to you citing cases of racist Dems advocating gun control.

Nor will I mention Yee.

riderr
04-28-2014, 1:48 PM
maybe that's the one with the same NTV actor playing a protester in five other videos? I tweeted a story on that awhile back if you want to look.Are you talking about the mob? Or about the big fat guy?


I'm not going to waste time responding to you citing cases of racist Dems advocating gun control. Nor will I mention Yee.You can simply admit you have no grounds for the argument.

riderr
04-28-2014, 1:56 PM
Much of what you say here is false.
It's very easy to say that, but much harder to prove.

By definition, his current and past support of a Swiss-style system of widespread gun ownership means he has supported his opponents' RKBA. Every poll shows massive support for Ukraine and dwindling support for joining Russia, even among the 17% or so of Ukrainians who are ethnic Russian, mostly in the East (my wife's family included).
You mean the polls ran in the Western Ukraine? Hm... Ask the folks in the East what they want.

Yes, there are differences and a desire for more autonomy. But the people in Europe's largest country solidly support a united Ukraine
Of course you conveniently ignore the referendum in Crimea and the currect political situation in the eastern Ukraine


Europe's largest country wants to be free and our Russian friends tend to be oblivious of the changes there--or nationalism blinds them. Ukrainians have no problem recognizing Russia for what it is, and what it is rapidly becoming in the power vacuum as trembling Europeans cut deals.It's kind of amusing when you speak for all the Ukrainians. However, a good part of the county would disagree with your vision of freedom. Somehow, many of them what to be really independent from both EU and Russia. So, pulling them to one side or another doesn't do any good.
Association with EU comes at a cost. Do you know that the current Ukrainian government refused to sign the memorandum with EU? You would expect them to do it like on the next day they got to the office, but yet they haven't done it. Do you know why?

riderr
04-28-2014, 2:00 PM
Arming and readying the entire 16-50 year old population for a guerrilla war against the Russian invaders is the only way Ukraine You would expect the military to do it, wouldn't you? However, the Ukrainian military refused to get engaged. Then, they created the National Guard. Those guys also refused to get into war with their brothers. So, why would you think the rest of the population would? Or would they turn the arms against the current government?

sl0re10
04-28-2014, 2:27 PM
If you are referring to Russian propaganda that the right in Ukraine is racist, fascist, etc., these claims have been debunked thoroughly, as has the false notion (propagated by Buchanan and others) that Ukraine is still a divided country. Much has changed in the last 20 years. Jews in Ukraine are solidly behind the present government.

The Right Sector's Yarosh has urged the adoption of a Swiss-style militia system for some time now.

I follow events there closely on my twitter page @guntrust

heh; its just like home (re: here in the US)... where we get called that kind of stuff (fascist et all) by people who are actually like that...

I hope they arm everyone. A rifle behind every blade of grass... in the way of invaders.

a1c
04-28-2014, 3:44 PM
Yeah, I'm sure mass-arming untrained civilians to fight against Russian special and regular forces would surely tip the conflict in favor of Ukrainians /sarcasm.

There are solutions. And then there are stupid suggestions.

Ukraine is not America. Nowhere is like America. We don't like other countries to lecture us about what to do, or what we should do. So let's not assume that what would work here would work there.

riderr
04-28-2014, 5:28 PM
Yeah, I'm sure mass-arming untrained civilians to fight against Russian special and regular forces would surely tip the conflict in favor of Ukrainians /sarcasm.
They are non totally unschooled. Remember they had two year mandatory draft. The issue is they really don't want to fight with brothers on the left or on the right.
Ukraine is not America. Nowhere is like America. We don't like other countries to lecture us about what to do, or what we should do. So let's not assume that what would work here would work there.
This is 100% true. It's different mentality and different life style

riderr
04-28-2014, 5:30 PM
I hope they arm everyone. A rifle behind every blade of grass... in the way of invaders. Then it will turn into a new Wild West very soon.

tankarian
04-28-2014, 6:29 PM
Yeah, I'm sure mass-arming untrained civilians to fight against Russian special and regular forces would surely tip the conflict in favor of Ukrainians /sarcasm.

There are solutions. And then there are stupid suggestions.

Ukraine is not America. Nowhere is like America. We don't like other countries to lecture us about what to do, or what we should do. So let's not assume that what would work here would work there.

You speak (again) out of your blatant ignorance.
Ukraine (as well as all former com-block countries) was a part of the Soviet Union and had mandatory military service for all males 18 and older. Transition to a voluntary professional army happened relatively recently, sometime after the year 2000 if I remember correctly. As such, most Ukrainian males older than 30 have extensive military training and as a percentage reported to the total of their population there are more military trained Ukrainians in Ukraine than military trained Americans in the US.

And finally, nobody here is lecturing other countries what to do. People are just espousing their opinions based on what history has to teach us. And one of the history lessons you seem to unfortunately have never learned, is that in the history of the modern world, only two countries have never been invaded: Switzerland and the US.

Can anyone here tell this guy what is the the one thing US have in common with Switzerland?

sl0re10
04-28-2014, 6:37 PM
Then it will turn into a new Wild West very soon.

the west didn't settle down by taking guns away (still easy to buy a gun in Arizona for example). It settled down when the population went up and a large number of armed people said enough to the troublemakers (and shot, hung, and/or ran them out of town). This meme has more in common with Russian regulars and nationalists invading and the, well armed, general population pushing them back.... if you ask me.

riderr
04-28-2014, 6:49 PM
Ukraine (as well as all former com-block countries) was a part of the Soviet Union and had mandatory military service for all males 18 and older. Transition to a voluntary professional army happened relatively recently, sometime after the year 2000 if I remember correctly. As such, most Ukrainian males older than 30 have extensive military training and as a percentage reported to the total of their population there are more military trained Ukrainians in Ukraine than military trained Americans in the US.
You can stop right here. The issue is the mandatory military service wasn't your ideal training. Like those who served in the electronic communications or railroad service (yeah they had it too) almost never touched the gun. May be they shot like a couple of mags over two years, but never before and never after. Even guys sent to motorized infantry didn't have any extensive training. So, they touched AK, but not at the professional level. Also, if you don't go shoot for ten -twenty years, your reflexes are gone.
The bottom line is they aren't fully unschooled, but they are not the commando squad either. Very few of them, who served in marines or other special task units are more or less capable of fighting. But again, twenty years of civil life don't make your reflexes sharper. Not to mention 40lb+ :)

is that in the history of the modern world, only two countries have never been invaded: Switzerland and the US.

Can anyone here tell this guy what is the the one thing US have in common with Switzerland?;) It's a little simplistic point of view. The reason the Switzerland never got invaded was the combination their political stance, the geographical location and (if you wish) their influence in the world banking. They have never joined any military treaty, never participated in any war, so naturally they had no enemies. Geographically it's a s**thole in the mountains, away from all the major roads. Also, they keep the world's bank. You don't want to upset the guy holding your money for you :)
Small arms, they have, played very little role in it. It's more for their own protection and unlikely event of invasion, when their militia becomes military, you could actually laugh at.

riderr
04-28-2014, 7:09 PM
the west didn't settle down by taking guns away (still easy to buy a gun in Arizona for example). It settled down when the population went up and a large number of armed people said enough to the troublemakers (and shot, hung, and/or ran them out of town).
In order to get there, the Wild West went through some rough years, until people's mentality changed. Same will happen with any other nation in chaos, that is simply given the firearms without the proper mental and professional education. Don't forget that you can walk away from any criminal charges there if you have enough money to bribe the officials. And yes, the officials will gladly break the law if you pay them well. If I remember correctly a homicide case can be thrown out for about $20K

This meme has more in common with Russian regulars and nationalists invading and the, well armed, general population pushing them back.... if you ask me.If the general population had weapons, Ukraine would have fallen apart a decade ago. They have two major parts of the county, commonly called Western Ukraine and Eastern Ukraine, which never were able to settle on anything.

bubbapug1
04-28-2014, 7:27 PM
The personal attacks within this thread should result in the banning of those responsible for them.

That said: the Ukrainians who have some idea of life under the Russian bear probably remember stalins brutal suppression and the massive famine resulting in the death of seven million Ukrainians. Is it any wonder the Russians are hated by some Ukrainians?

Russian rule is not like that of American military occupation aka Japan, Korea, California...Texas, etc.

Russia is a country in decline, with fertility rates almost the lowest in the world. It's not a "modern" civilization. It's an oligarchy like we are going to be and may already be, but stripped if the veneer of democracy promulgated by our rulers. The soviet citizen knows his lot.

The Ukrainians who remember mother Russia's bear hug don't want to fall into bits embrace once again.

We helped create the coup a few months back, and also brokered the castration of Ukrainian defense by promising defensive protection to the Ukraine in trade for her nuclear weapons. Obama has not kept that pledge.

And putin is not worried about a man who is afraid of his own shadow.

http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/archives/ukra.html

tankarian
04-28-2014, 7:39 PM
You can stop right here. The issue is the mandatory military service wasn't your ideal training. Like those who served in the electronic communications or railroad service (yeah they had it too) almost never touched the gun. May be they shot like a couple of mags over two years, but never before and never after. Even guys sent to motorized infantry didn't have any extensive training. So, they touched AK, but not at the professional level. Also, if you don't go shoot for ten -twenty years, your reflexes are gone.
The bottom line is they aren't fully unschooled, but they are not the commando squad either. Very few of them, who served in marines or other special task units are more or less capable of fighting. But again, twenty years of civil life don't make your reflexes sharper. Not to mention 40lb+ :)

Some military training is a lot better than no military training.
And yes, while older guys like me who served 2 years in the com-block Navy didn't get to shoot their AK-47 much, the basic things you learn never go fade. I can guarantee you that if the SHTF, I don't have any doubt my chances of survival are better than 90% of randomly picked L.A. youngsters.
I may be 30-40 lb. overweight but I still can take an AK apart and put it back blindfolded faster than most Americans who own one would be able to do it with their eyes open. I know how to put on a gas mask on correctly and shoot a rifle while wearing the mask. I know how to use a map and a compass or navigate by stars. I know morse code and flag and hand signals, and how to load aim and fire a four-barreled AA machine gun.
I know how to throw a defensive pineapple grenade and take cover, I know how to dig a foxhole with a folding combat shovel. I know how to patch up a hole in the ship hull under the water line. These are just a couple of things I can remember from the top of my head.
I didn't liked the military, 2 years of forced service was the darkest period of my life. But all the training is still with me I will never forget it. I am pretty sure most com-block veterans like me remember how to do many of the things they were trained during their service. And it doesn't matter in what branch or what capacity they served since everybody had to complete the mandatory basic training period.



;) It's a little simplistic point of view. The reason the Switzerland never got invaded was the combination their political stance, the geographical location and (if you wish) their influence in the world banking. They have never joined any military treaty, never participated in any war, so naturally they had no enemies. Geographically it's a s**thole in the mountains, away from all the major roads. Also, they keep the world's bank. You don't want to upset the guy holding your money for you :)
Small arms, they have, played very little role in it. It's more for their own protection and unlikely event of invasion, when their militia becomes military, you could actually laugh at.

Read Dave Kole's article on the issue: http://www.davekopel.com/2A/Mags/TargetSwitzerland.htm

penguinofsleep
04-28-2014, 7:41 PM
May not help them win in and of itself, but if it came down to it, it's better than nothing.

But wait, how can they be forward and advanced and civilized w/o all the guns b/c "no we can't possibly sink be child killers like the pig americans"... :whistling:
or was that only western englands???/?? i dunno where any of dem der countries are on map. murica hurr hurr.

riderr
04-28-2014, 7:46 PM
That said: the Ukrainians who have some idea of life under the Russian bear probably remember stalins brutal suppression and the massive famine resulting in the death of seven million Ukrainians.
Just don't forget, that Russians lost a lot more people in the USSR era. Somehow it gets forgotten. Also, their leader back then wasn't Russian at all.

Is it any wonder the Russians are hated by some Ukrainians?
No. Historically, Ukrainians equally hated Russian and Jews. It was this way for centuries.


Russia is a country in decline, with fertility rates almost the lowest in the world. It's not a "modern" civilization.
You'd be surprised, but according to a very trustworthy source
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2127rank.html

their fertility rate is over than the Canadian one and also one of the best in Europe. Yet, less than the U.S., but we perfectly know what groups contribute to the higher rate in the U.S, don't we? There are no those ... ethnic groups.... in Russia. So, if you compare apples to apples, your numbers and trends will flip


It's an oligarchy like we are going to be and may already be, but stripped if the veneer of democracy promulgated by our rulers. The soviet citizen knows his lot. I do believe it's still better than Saudi's one. However they are out dearest friends, somehow.

The Ukrainians who remember mother Russia's bear hug don't want to fall into bits embrace once again. Once again, don't mix up Russia and USSR. Those were different countries. Russia suffered the biggest lost back then.

We helped create the coup a few months back, and also brokered the castration of Ukrainian defense by promising defensive protection to the Ukraine in trade for her nuclear weapons. Obama has not kept that pledge.
Would you prefer the U.S. soldiers die in there for what??? In the first place, we had no business in the Ukrainian politics and never should've mess up in there.

tankarian
04-28-2014, 7:49 PM
The personal attacks within this thread should result in the banning of those responsible for them.

That said: the Ukrainians who have some idea of life under the Russian bear probably remember stalins brutal suppression and the massive famine resulting in the death of seven million Ukrainians. Is it any wonder the Russians are hated by some Ukrainians?

Russian rule is not like that of American military occupation aka Japan, Korea, California...Texas, etc.

Russia is a country in decline, with fertility rates almost the lowest in the world. It's not a "modern" civilization. It's an oligarchy like we are going to be and may already be, but stripped if the veneer of democracy promulgated by our rulers. The soviet citizen knows his lot.

The Ukrainians who remember mother Russia's bear hug don't want to fall into bits embrace once again.

We helped create the coup a few months back, and also brokered the castration of Ukrainian defense by promising defensive protection to the Ukraine in trade for her nuclear weapons. Obama has not kept that pledge.

And putin is not worried about a man who is afraid of his own shadow.

http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/archives/ukra.html

Holodmor (http://genocideofukraine.com/)
Every American heard about Hitler's death camps and the "final solution"
In my estimation less than 1 in 100 Americans heard about Stalin's Ukrainian genocide by starvation which was equally cruel and evil.

riderr
04-28-2014, 8:01 PM
Holodmor (http://genocideofukraine.com/)
Every American heard about Hitler's death camps and the "final solution"
In my estimation less than 1 in 100 Americans heard about Stalin's Ukrainian genocide by starvation which was equally cruel and evil.

Just don't forget, the total loss was about 7M people. Out of those, Ukrainians lost 3-3.5M. I wouldn't say it was targeted against them specifically.

Also, Stalin along with the vast majority of his administration were not Russians

riderr
04-28-2014, 8:11 PM
Some military training is a lot better than no military training.
No practice in 20 years will completely fade out your reflexes.


And yes, while older guys like me who served 2 years in the com-block Navy didn't get to shoot their AK-47 much the basic things you learn never go fade.
If you didn't shoot AK on the regular basis, however practiced fieldstripping it over and over again, it's not exactly the thing that will save your life ;)

I can guarantee you that if the SHTF, I don't have any doubt my chances of survival are better than 90% of randomly picked L.A. youngsters.
In a handgun fight, I wouldn't make my bet on you :)

I may be 30-40 lb. overweight but I still can take an AK apart and put it back blindfolded faster than most Americans who own one would be able to do it with their eyes open.
Nice, but how exactly will it help you in a gun fight?

I know how to put on a gas mask on correctly and shoot a rifle while wearing the mask. I know how to use a map and a compass or navigate by stars. I know morse code and flag and hand signals, and how to load aim and fire a four-barreled AA machine gun.
I know how to throw a defensive pineapple grenade and take cover, I know how to dig a foxhole with a folding combat shovel. I know how to patch up a hole in the ship hull under the water line. These are just a couple of things I can remember from the top of my head.
Check a good survivalist's forum. It will bruise your ego, but will bring you closer to the reality.

I didn't liked the military, 2 years of forced service was the darkest period of my life. But all the training is still with me I will never forget it. I am pretty sure most com-block veterans like me remember how to do many of the things they were trained during their service. And it doesn't matter in what branch or what capacity they served since everybody had to complete the mandatory basic training period.Again, your Navy service experience, while valuable itself, can be a bit useless in a guerilla war.





Read Dave Kole's article on the issue: http://www.davekopel.com/2A/Mags/TargetSwitzerland.htmOh, please. I took European History class at university :)

bubbapug1
04-28-2014, 8:47 PM
Just don't forget, that Russians lost a lot more people in the USSR era. Somehow it gets forgotten. Also, their leader back then wasn't Russian at all.

Would you prefer the U.S. soldiers die in there for what??? In the first place, we had no business in the Ukrainian politics and never should've mess up in there.

Stalin killed over 30,000,000 people through his poor governing and purges. Mao killed even more. While democracy is messy, it gives perhaps the best chance to replace despots before they totally ruin the neighborhood....gw bush aside.

No US troops unless its a war we will fight with no restraint, as in genocide on a general basis, total unconditional victory, and imperialist colonialist aims....as in total subjugation of the remaining locals and destruction of all previous cultural underpinnings...like Japan in WW2 or Sherman and the south in the civil war.

It works. It works well. Nothing else works.

Russia will continue its downward spiral because Putin's genius is not in economics, its in Apparatchik and suppression of political and economic dissent.

I would venture a guess the recently deposed Ukraine president backed out of the EU deal when Putin unveiled for him the scenario we are seeing now, and he decided to keep his country intact rather than face off while his economy was weak...a politics of reality so to say.

Let us hope there are rivers of blood on the Russian side in the upcoming and certain war....This may just slow down Putin who has become intoxicated with his ultimate powers and may have just lost his mind like his predecessors in European conquest...Hitler and Stalin. The former eastern bloc nations see this for what it is....imperialist russia once again in her grab and hold mode.

VegasND
04-28-2014, 9:06 PM
It would be great to see a European country allow its citizens to own and bear firearms.

riderr
04-28-2014, 9:44 PM
Stalin killed over 30,000,000 people through his poor governing and purges. Mao killed even more. While democracy is messy, it gives perhaps the best chance to replace despots before they totally ruin the neighborhood....gw bush aside.
Both Stalin and Mao died due to natural reasons. No democracy were involved or held liable for that.



It works. It works well. Nothing else works.
Nice mantra. Keep convincing yourself.

Russia will continue its downward spiral because Putin's genius is not in economics, its in Apparatchik and suppression of political and economic dissent.
So far I don't see any trend over there, considering the facts. However, I could care less about them. What I do care of is the U.S. economy. And yes, it goes deeper and deeper down. It concerns me. The fertility rate in Russia does not.


I would venture a guess the recently deposed Ukraine president backed out of the EU deal when Putin unveiled for him the scenario we are seeing now, and he decided to keep his country intact rather than face off while his economy was weak...a politics of reality so to say.;) It's an interesting, but uneducated speculation. The fact is, they backed off the EU deal when they realized they would have to run the reforms, which would hurt the economy badly. This is when their former president backed off. Then the riots started. Now, the new government went to EU again and... you may consider it's funny... they also refused to sign the economic part of the treaty. You would ask why, wouldn't you? They explained... It would put the country economy down to sh*t. No matter what government is in Ukraine, the EU deal is still nowhere. Guess why... It's not that f*cking good as it's advertised in the media. Does it ring a bell?


Let us hope there are rivers of blood on the Russian side in the upcoming and certain war....
What blood?


This may just slow down Putin who has become intoxicated with his ultimate powers and may have just lost his mind like his predecessors in European conquest...Hitler and Stalin. The former eastern bloc nations see this for what it is....imperialist russia once again in her grab and hold mode.

It's no different than any other war, the U.S. was a part of. This time it's Russia setting the order. Why is so much whining over it?

riderr
04-28-2014, 9:51 PM
It would be great to see a European country allow its citizens to own and bear firearms.

Without the Constitutional guarantee, it will always be manipulated by different governments. It's gotta be carved in stone in order to become the full blown right. Well, even in this case our government find ways to limit the Constitutional right.

bubbapug1
04-28-2014, 10:39 PM
It's no different than any other war, the U.S. was a part of. This time it's Russia setting the order. Why is so much whining over it?

The last time we had a madman on the loose in Europe it started World War Two . If Putin attacks a NATO country there will be another world war. Putin is a madman intoxicated by his power in a country run by thugs.

I am not saying it's worse than a country run by wimps as is the case in the USA at present, but as the winds of war rise we could elect another Bush type macho man who could plunge both Russia and the USA into a hot war or another costly Cold War.

As for the Ukraine, Putin will annex half the country. I hope someone fights back. He will have another Chechnya on his hands, only the terrorists will be supplied by the west. That will become very costly to combat.

tankarian
04-28-2014, 10:51 PM
No practice in 20 years will completely fade out your reflexes.

If you didn't shoot AK on the regular basis, however practiced fieldstripping it over and over again, it's not exactly the thing that will save your life ;)
In a handgun fight, I wouldn't make my bet on you :)
Nice, but how exactly will it help you in a gun fight?
Check a good survivalist's forum. It will bruise your ego, but will bring you closer to the reality.
Again, your Navy service experience, while valuable itself, can be a bit useless in a guerilla war.


Oh, please. I took European History class at university :)

I have to admit defeat. The military experience you accumulated while watching Saving Private Ryan is vastly superior to mine. I only wish my superiors would have made us watch Hollywood war movies instead of drilling the military training into us till we dropped.

As for the European history class you took in college, I must say I am impressed. It surely was a lot of information to absorb in a semester, from the antiquity to present day - so many different nations, people and events. Most American college kids need a couple of semesters to thoroughly go through only 200 years of American history. I am just amazed by you being able to learn the 2,500+ year history of tens of different European civilizations and nations in only one semester. You Sir, are a true genius.

P.S. It's spelled "guerrilla" not "guerilla" like gorilla. Since you are such an expert in all things military I am pretty sure it wasn't your mistake -must be an error caused by a glitch in your computer spell check software.

riderr
04-28-2014, 10:54 PM
If Putin attacks a NATO country there will be another world war. What is Martians come down and attack a NATO country? Will it start Star Wars? Get real. No NATO country is under attack or under a threat of attack.

Putin is a madman intoxicated by his power in a country run by thugs. I don't agree or disagree. However, I'd like to see where your opinion comes from?

I am not saying it's worse than a country run by wimps as is the case in the USA at present, but as the winds of war rise we could elect another Bush type macho man who could plunge both Russia and the USA into a hot war or another costly Cold War. It's just a foreign policy. US pissed off a good half of the Globe. So what?

As for the Ukraine, Putin will annex half the country.
You have factual information from Putin personally or you want to substitute "will" with "might"?

I hope someone fights back.
The fact nobody yet has fought back could make your think they don't really oppose Putin's foreign policy. Have you assumed that?

He will have another Chechnya on his hands, only the terrorists will be supplied by the west. That will become very costly to combat. :facepalm: Al Qaeda fought again Russians in Chechnya. Are you saying the "West" will deploy Al Qaeda terrorists in Ukraine? :facepalm: You should really read about that conflict.

riderr
04-28-2014, 11:00 PM
I have to admit defeat. The military experience you accumulated while watching Saving Private Ryan is vastly superior to mine. I only wish my superiors would have made us watch Hollywood war movies instead of drilling the military training into us till we dropped.
You have no idea of my background, military service, rank, affiliations and origins. You behave like an upset kid.


As for the European history class you took in college, I must say I am impressed. It surely was a lot of information to absorb in a semester, from the antiquity to present day - so many different nations, people and events. Most American college kids need a couple of semesters to thoroughly go through only 200 years of American history. I am just amazed by you being able to learn the 2,500+ year history of tens of different European civilizations and nations in only one semester. You Sir, are a true genius.
You have no idea who I am, where I graduated from, and what my educational credentials. Again, it's kinda childish

P.S. It's spelled "guerrilla" not "guerilla" like gorilla. Since you are such an expert in all things military I am pretty sure it wasn't your mistake -must be an error caused by a glitch in your computer spell check software.
I apologize for missing out one letter. It was completely inappropriate. :facepalm:

tankarian
04-28-2014, 11:18 PM
You have no idea of my background, military service, rank, affiliations and origins. You behave like an upset kid.

You have no idea who I am, where I graduated from, and what my educational credentials. Again, it's kinda childish

I apologize for missing out one letter. It was completely inappropriate. :facepalm:

Seriously, I'm done. I admitted defeat and acknowledged your vast superiority.
What else do you want from me?

Baeleron
04-29-2014, 6:53 AM
And finally, nobody here is lecturing other countries what to do. People are just espousing their opinions based on what history has to teach us. And one of the history lessons you seem to unfortunately have never learned, is that in the history of the modern world, only two countries have never been invaded: Switzerland and the US.


If you think the US has never been invaded, then you might want to learn about the War of 1812, where at one point the Canadians and British even burned Washington. The Star Spangled Banner was composed during a British invasion of Baltimore in the same war.

But oh! You said the modern world. Maybe that means the 20th century? Did you know that Japan actually invaded Alaska during WWII? And when in the 20th century did Canada get invaded? Or Mexico? Or almost every other country in the Americas that isn't called Panama or Grenada? I could go on and on. I'm not really interested in your Ukraine dispute, but learn some history before making wild statements.

sl0re10
04-29-2014, 8:20 AM
In order to get there, the Wild West went through some rough years, until people's mentality changed. Same will happen with any other nation in chaos, that is simply given the firearms without the proper mental and professional education. Don't forget that you can walk away from any criminal charges there if you have enough money to bribe the officials. And yes, the officials will gladly break the law if you pay them well. If I remember correctly a homicide case can be thrown out for about $20K
If the general population had weapons, Ukraine would have fallen apart a decade ago. They have two major parts of the county, commonly called Western Ukraine and Eastern Ukraine, which never were able to settle on anything.

We have something similar to this in the US. Where our enemies offer advice. I tend to ignore it and assume they're trying to talk us out of a good idea.

sl0re10
04-29-2014, 8:36 AM
If you think the US has never been invaded, then you might want to learn about the War of 1812, where at one point the Canadians and British even burned Washington. The Star Spangled Banner was composed during a British invasion of Baltimore in the same war.

But oh! You said the modern world. Maybe that means the 20th century? Did you know that Japan actually invaded Alaska during WWII? And when in the 20th century did Canada get invaded? Or Mexico? Or almost every other country in the Americas that isn't called Panama or Grenada? I could go on and on. I'm not really interested in your Ukraine dispute, but learn some history before making wild statements.

If he meant the modern era; only Alaska really plays in. It was possible because they hit unpopulated islands. Also; even 'populated' in Alaska is hardly so by standards in other parts of the country.

If Japan invaded the west coast; it would have been a disaster for them. Tens of thousands of civilians would have been with the military on the firing lines (wherever they might have been... as tens of thousands of civilians could come out of the woodwork anywhere on the coast). If they somehow got a foothold; there would have been constant attacks on their supply lines. It just wouldn't have worked for them.

Baeleron
04-29-2014, 8:44 AM
If he meant the modern era; only Alaska really plays in. It was possible because they hit unpopulated islands. Also; even 'populated' in Alaska is hardly so by standards in other parts of the country.

If Japan invaded the west coast; it would have been a disaster for them. Tens of thousands of civilians would have been with the military on the firing lines (wherever they might have been... as tens of thousands of civilians could come out of the woodwork anywhere on the coast). If they somehow got a foothold; there would have been constant attacks on their supply lines. It just wouldn't have worked for them.

Agreed, it was technically an invasion, but yeah. However, the part about only the US and Switzerland not having been invanded is just silly. Most countries in the world have not been invaded in the modern era, however you want to define that. :)

dbub
04-29-2014, 9:08 AM
Give them the weapons and the freedom, they'll know what to do. We (the US) should be buying grey market AKs and SKS and shipping them to Ukraine with truckloads of 7.62x39. Untraceable. They can use them. Being in the defense or waiting in ambush is much easier than offense. They only need 1 out of 10 people to be proficient to teach the other 9 how to load, point and pull the trigger, and then clean it afterwards. In US army basic training, basic rifle marksmanship is only 2 weeks long, and most recruits can shoot targets out to 100 meters on day one. Ukraine has 10 million men between 25-54. Russia has 40,000 on the border. It's a numbers game. It's much cheaper and easier to arm them now and threaten to turn Ukraine into the Soviet Afghanistan, rather than reopening our German bases and sending our kids to stand on the Polish border with Ukraine.

QQQ
04-29-2014, 9:08 AM
Then it will turn into a new Wild West very soon.

What an obnoxious and unfounded statement, identical to what the gun-grabbers say about gun rights in the United States.

Jimi Jah
04-29-2014, 9:31 AM
It would be great to see a European country allow its citizens to own and bear firearms.

That's never going to happen, except for Switzerland. Funny how that small country is never invaded?

We have an agreement with Ukraine to support their government. Obama had a chance to send over small arms, but dithered, as usual. "Lead from behind".

If average Ukrainians had small arms, the Russians would think twice about invading. Like most of Europe, they are disarmed and ripe for picking. The USA is allowing a Russian takeover to occur as Obama has said it's a local 'issue'.

a1c
04-29-2014, 9:31 AM
You speak (again) out of your blatant ignorance.
Ukraine (as well as all former com-block countries) was a part of the Soviet Union and had mandatory military service for all males 18 and older. Transition to a voluntary professional army happened relatively recently, sometime after the year 2000 if I remember correctly. As such, most Ukrainian males older than 30 have extensive military training and as a percentage reported to the total of their population there are more military trained Ukrainians in Ukraine than military trained Americans in the US.

And finally, nobody here is lecturing other countries what to do. People are just espousing their opinions based on what history has to teach us. And one of the history lessons you seem to unfortunately have never learned, is that in the history of the modern world, only two countries have never been invaded: Switzerland and the US.

Can anyone here tell this guy what is the the one thing US have in common with Switzerland?

I love how you like to speak of my ignorance, even though you do not have the slightest idea of what my education and experience is, the places I've lived in or travelled to, what I've studied, and so on. But I'll indulge your reply anyway. It's cute to see how much you care.

I've been to Ukraine, and I know many men who have received that training. And I stand by what I said. They are not combat-ready troops. In a matter of years they've forgotten most of the training. They're not reserve troops that get back on the horse every few weeks or months. There are militia, for sure. Many of them with ties to the antisemitic far right. Another set of problems right there.

Sure, those guys who were in the service are better trained than the average random guy, but they are still completely outgunned, outtrained and outnumbered by Russian troops.

And please, leave Switzerland alone. Completely different country as well, and the kind of gun and ammo control they have over there makes California look like a free state.

A civil war is not something anyone wants to begin with - Russia would win that war hands down. And Putin has shown in other countries he doesn't mind if the conflict escalates and last years. He's in for the nationalist benefits.

riderr
04-29-2014, 11:10 AM
What an obnoxious and unfounded statement, identical to what the gun-grabbers say about gun rights in the United States.

Like I said, they have totally different mentality. Arguments are never settled down in the way, you got used to. Police is never called, until the fight is over, etc. It's literally a different world. You should study the subject matter before making statements.

yellowfin
04-29-2014, 11:16 AM
You would expect the military to do it, wouldn't you? However, the Ukrainian military refused to get engaged. Then, they created the National Guard. Those guys also refused to get into war with their brothers. So, why would you think the rest of the population would? Or would they turn the arms against the current government?
An armed populace puts militaries and governments on better behavior than an unarmed one. So if anything it would add stabilization and delay, lessen, or possibly even entirely preclude any violence at all by whatever side or entity would be otherwise tempted to try it. Kinda like how there aren't any fist fights at 3 gun matches.

riderr
04-29-2014, 11:31 AM
An armed populace puts militaries and governments on better behavior than an unarmed one. So if anything it would add stabilization and delay, lessen, or possibly even entirely preclude any violence at all by whatever side or entity would be otherwise tempted to try it. Kinda like how there aren't any fist fights at 3 gun matches.
You see, they have a bit different challenge there. The western and eastern parts of the country can't get along at all. Police is useless and washed their hands, military don't want to die for the government. Handing over firearms now will result in another confrontation, like LA riots. Every word they scream out at each other will turn into bullet. Again, it's just the mentality over there, lack of tolerance and little cultural differences.

teg33
04-29-2014, 12:06 PM
Isn't Ukraine part of Soviet Union? If that's the case let Russia have Ukraine. For better or worst, Russia need to maintain its influence throughout region to counter balance European Union influence.

Jed Meyers
04-29-2014, 2:31 PM
Isn't Ukraine part of Soviet Union? If that's the case let Russia have Ukraine. For better or worst, Russia need to maintain its influence throughout region to counter balance European Union influence.

No. Ukraine is not a part of Soviet Union since there is no Soviet Union in existence today. Other parts of your statement are equally stupid as well.

teg33
04-29-2014, 2:46 PM
No. Ukraine is not a part of Soviet Union since there is no Soviet Union in existence today. Other parts of your statement are equally stupid as well.

Sorry, let me fix it, Wasn't Ukraine part of Soviet Union, before Soviet Union dissolved by mistake? Or you may say "satellite country" of CCCP ? IMO Russia must to have significant influence in that particular region. I strongly believe on "power balance". Power monopoly will only lead to abuse. It won't do any good to the region to let European Union dominate "Eastern Europe".

Baeleron
04-29-2014, 2:55 PM
I guess it depends how much you value letting populations have self-determination. There are quite a few Hawaiians who would like to be independent again. I also hear the same about Texas. What do you think the US would do if those states tried to secede? And if they tried and their rebellions were quashed, how would you feel about European intervention?

QQQ
04-29-2014, 3:19 PM
Like I said, they have totally different mentality. Arguments are never settled down in the way, you got used to. Police is never called, until the fight is over, etc. It's literally a different world. You should study the subject matter before making statements.

No, it was still a ridiculous statement since (as you said) the Ukraine is different than the US. So then "Wild West" comparison doesn't hold water.

Jed Meyers
04-29-2014, 3:34 PM
I guess it depends how much you value letting populations have self-determination. There are quite a few Hawaiians who would like to be independent again. I also hear the same about Texas. What do you think the US would do if those states tried to secede? And if they tried and their rebellions were quashed, how would you feel about European intervention?

This is not a nation of people without their own country fighting for self-determination. Russians have already determined and even formed a country called Russian Federation, and they are free to move there if they like. They just don't get to take the land they happen to live on for 30 years, because it's not their land to take.

Jed Meyers
04-29-2014, 3:35 PM
Sorry, let me fix it, Wasn't Ukraine part of Soviet Union, before Soviet Union dissolved by mistake? Or you may say "satellite country" of CCCP ? IMO Russia must to have significant influence in that particular region. I strongly believe on "power balance". Power monopoly will only lead to abuse. It won't do any good to the region to let European Union dominate "Eastern Europe".

What's this "power balance" that you believe on?

riderr
04-29-2014, 3:43 PM
No, it was still a ridiculous statement since (as you said) the Ukraine is different than the US. So then "Wild West" comparison doesn't hold water.

U.S. nowdays is not exactly the wild west either. So, my point still can be valid. At least for those, who are capable of thinking. :43:
Cheers

riderr
04-29-2014, 3:47 PM
This is not a nation of people without their own country fighting for self-determination. Russians have already determined and even formed a country called Russian Federation, and they are free to move there if they like. They just don't get to take the land they happen to live on for 30 years, because it's not their land to take.

The issue is that you make your judgment based on lack (or absence) of studies. Ethnic Russians in Ukraine mostly were born there, so it's their land too. They are raised on Russian culture, but yet they are Ukrainian citizens. Why in the hell do they have to move out? It's like a choice for the white Americans to either move to Europe or become Cherokees.
It you dig a bit deeper, you'll find out that Ukraine in the way we know it today was put together by communists. Before, it had been torn apart by other countries. Only under the USSR, they got all the territories, commonly referred now as Ukraine. A big part of it was historically a Russian land, so that's why you have so many ethnic Russians living there for generations. Later, USSR re-shuffled and re-labeled it

Jed Meyers
04-29-2014, 3:50 PM
The issue is that you make your judgment based on lack (or absence) of studies. Ethnic Russians in Ukraine mostly were born there, so it's their land too. Why in the hell do they have to move out? It's like a choice for the white Americans to either move to Europe or become Cherokees.

It's their land too, not just their land. It belongs to all people of Ukraine. If they want to live in a Russian country as one nation they will have to move out. Russian Federation is not even a one-nation country but nevertheless. Otherwise they have to live by the rules that the majority of the country decides on.

It you dig a bit deeper, you'll find out that Ukraine in the way we know it today was put together by communists. Before, it had been torn apart by other countries. Only under the USSR, they got all the territories, commonly referred now as Ukraine. A big part of it was historically a Russian land, so that's why you have so many ethnic Russians living there for generations. Later, USSR re-shuffled and re-labeled it
So. What of it? Over 60 per cent of current Crimean population moved there after it became a part of the Ukrainian SSR. There are more Russians there than the Ukrainians, but have they lived there for "generations" - no. They just moved there and thought that somehow they now have the right to decide what county the land they live on should belong to.

riderr
04-29-2014, 4:05 PM
It's their land too, not just their land. It belongs to all people of Ukraine. If they want to live in a Russian country as one nation they will have to move out. Russian Federation is not even a one-nation country but nevertheless. Otherwise they have to live by the rules that the majority of the country decides on.They want to live on their land. They want their land (neighborhood, community, city, etc) belong to the country they have strong ties with. It's very common in European history, when some regions switch from one country to another. It's been considered normal and happened a way too often. There is no way, the western Ukrainians can consider Crimea a their land. Such as statement would be totally ridiculous. Glad you haven't made it :)


So. What of it? Over 60 per cent of current Crimean population moved there after it became a part of the Ukrainian SSR. There are more Russians there than the Ukrainians, but have they lived there for "generations" - no. They just moved there and thought that somehow they now have the right to decide what county the land they live on should belong to.
Since Crimea became a Russian land back in 18th century (coincidently, it was about the time, U.S. became independent), many Russians moved there. So, it's indeed generations of Russians lived there. If you compare how many Americans can trace their root to Mayflower to the number of Crimean generations lived in the peninsula, you'd be very surprised

Jed Meyers
04-29-2014, 4:12 PM
They want to live on their land. They want their land (neighborhood, community, city, etc) belong to the country they have strong ties with. It's very common in European history, when some regions switch from one country to another. It's been considered normal.
It's not their land to decide what country it should belong to. Can Spanish speaking South Californians decide that it should be returned to Mexico since they have strong ties with it? Considering that California was a part of Mexico before this proposal should sound reasonable to a person such as yourself.

And even if you allow this process to happen, what time limit do you propose to set for people to be able to vote on the status of the land they live on. Do they have to live there 1 year, 10 years, 100 years? Or 5 minutes of residence should be enough to claim a piece of land into the Crown ownership?

riderr
04-29-2014, 4:43 PM
It's not their land to decide what country it should belong to.
Really? Who may make the call then?

Can Spanish speaking South Californians decide that it should be returned to Mexico since they have strong ties with it? Considering that California was a part of Mexico before this proposal should sound reasonable to a person such as yourself.
The Great State of California made their choice back in 19th century.

And even if you allow this process to happen
I do.

what time limit do you propose to set for people to be able to vote on the status of the land they live on. Do they have to live there 1 year, 10 years, 100 years? Or 5 minutes of residence should be enough to claim a piece of land into the Crown ownership?Why do I need a timeframe in the situation, where the vast majority of the population has set its mind? They did it, they fixed the mistake made by ex-USSR leader, now you just take it as granted and respect the citizens' opinion.


You and I see it differently. I believe the land belongs to the people who historically live there. It's their decision which country they want to join or if they want to be independent. You come from the point, than the land is the property of the country and should be administered as such.

Jed Meyers
04-29-2014, 4:57 PM
Really? Who may make the call then?
The People of Ukraine.

The Great State of California made their choice back in 19th century. Crimeans and all other population of Ukraine made their choice back in 1991 when it was created within the borders of Ukrainian SSR.


I do.
Why do I need a timeframe in the situation, where the vast majority of the population has set its mind? They did it, they fixed the mistake made by ex-USSR leader, now you just take it as granted and respect the citizens' opinion. How do you know what the vast majority of the population set it's mind to? You think that "referendum" under the supervision of a pro-Russian armed forces reflects the view of the majority of the population?

Hypothetically, if I find 3 million people and move them to Crimea, and we then will decide that Crimea should now become Turkish, you will find it reasonable as well, correct? Under the premise that majority of the "current" population will support this move.

Baeleron
04-29-2014, 5:31 PM
Whoever has the might makes the rules. That's the way it always has been and always will be. And that's as true in America's sphere of influence as it is in Russia's. We can talk and gesture all day long about referendums and self-determination, and it just doesn't ultimately matter a bit. Russia will do exactly what they think will benefit them, as does America.

And that's a pretty good reason to stay armed.

riderr
04-29-2014, 7:38 PM
The People of Ukraine.There is western Ukraine and eastern Ukraine. Two parts of the country have pretty much nothing in common and can't get along.


Crimeans and all other population of Ukraine made their choice back in 1991 when it was created within the borders of Ukrainian SSR.
Oh, please. I bet you know the truth, but for some reason you choose to spread lies :) In referendum in 1991, Crimeans voted for independence. Somehow, that was thrown away.


How do you know what the vast majority of the population set it's mind to? You think that "referendum" under the supervision of a pro-Russian armed forces reflects the view of the majority of the population?
You really have to study the history. Ukraine bent the laws in the way such a referendum was held illegal. Crimeans were always pro-Russian, so the referendum outcome wasn't a surprised. Russians simply neutralized the Ukrainian police and military, so the citizens could have the referendum. No Ukrainian official questioned the Crimean referendum results. Everybody (but you, obviously) knew it.

Hypothetically, if I find 3 million people and move them to Crimea, and we then will decide that Crimea should now become Turkish, you will find it reasonable as well, correct? Under the premise that majority of the "current" population will support this move.Ukraine (50M population) failed to do that in Crimea for over 20 years. If you feel you are smarter, run for their President office. It's not too late.

bubbapug1
04-29-2014, 7:50 PM
Whoever has the might makes the rules. That's the way it always has been and always will be. And that's as true in America's sphere of influence as it is in Russia's. We can talk and gesture all day long about referendums and self-determination, and it just doesn't ultimately matter a bit. Russia will do exactly what they think will benefit them, as does America.

And that's a pretty good reason to stay armed.

Might makes right. Always has, always will. And the winners get to print and write the history books. The losers ... Get killed.

Simple. Can't change the nature of men. We should learn that before we become a nation of Twinkies children. Bullying isn't inherently wrong, it's just inherently human.

America stayed armed to the teeth After Korea to protect our economic interests. I guess now , in debt to our eyeballs, there is no reason to protect a treasury that's not only empty, but bankrupt.

Let Walmart and Koch industries look after all of our interests and environment and one day we too may wish to join putins new Russia!! God bless Chernobyl!! Give me my Russian autocracy!! Give me my vodka, declining population, hope, and declining life span and fertility rates. Give me my booze induced birth defects.

Like riderr (I have out him on ignore as a troll) has said , we are all ignorant. Ant the Russians technically won't invade - they'll just walk in backwards and claim they're leaving !! An old Russian trick comrades.

Colt-45
04-29-2014, 8:08 PM
I find this very interesting because about a month ago the Ukrainian government was asking the "self defense militias" to turn in their guns and join the national guard if they wanted to carry guns.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/21/world/europe/ukraine-sets-deadline-for-militias-to-surrender-illegal-guns.html?_r=0

So what's it gonna? allow private ownership or not?

I'll tell you one thing for sure, the Russians aren't in favor of the Ukrainians owning weapons. It's naive to think an armed populace is not a deterrent for the Russians, while they still could potentially squash them it sure as hell wont be as easy. While the level of training of an infantry soldier is vastly superior to that of an average person, weapons make a difference and it doesn't take an infantrymen to adequately shoot a rifle. Adding guns into the mix with the muzzles turned in your directly doesn't make things easier.

Hryhoriy Nemyria, a Parliament member and a former deputy prime minister who supports the government’s position on collecting firearms, said in an interview that far from discouraging a Russian intervention, the widespread distribution of illegal firearms could just as easily be used to justify one.

Found this quote in the article, what a ridiculous reason to negate private ownership of firearms.

Jed Meyers
04-29-2014, 8:22 PM
No Ukrainian official questioned the Crimean referendum results.

What do you mean "no Ukrainian official questioned"? No Ukrainian official ever acknowledged the results as being legitimate. Even UN General Assembly acknowledged the same. U.N. General Assembly resolution calls Crimean referendum invalid (http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/27/world/europe/ukraine-crisis/)

Jed Meyers
04-29-2014, 8:28 PM
So what's it gonna? allow private ownership or not?

Ukraine as a State never wanted and does not actually want now to arm it's People. And most people do not understand the whole idea of gun ownership and "being free". Maidan showed that a lot of people will never consider the idea that government can be the outlaw. For those people government=law and law=government. They still have the idea that country leader is better then all of it's people, that he/she knows what's the best for the country, cause they certainly don't. In Russia it's even more extreme, just look at Putin.

Colt-45
04-29-2014, 8:36 PM
Ukraine as a State never wanted and does not actually want now to arm it's People. And most people do not understand the whole idea of gun ownership and "being free". Maidan showed that a lot of people will never consider the idea that government can be the outlaw. For those people government=law and law=government. They still have the idea that country leader is better then all of it's people, that he/she knows what's the best for the country, cause they certainly don't. In Russia it's even more extreme, just look at Putin.

What you're saying, I see it in SW Mexico. Armed "self defense" groups removed the cartel and some of individuals consider turning in their guns, they think that the issue is permanently solved and they don't take a second to think that the issue will come back when they turn in their guns. They think it's "the governments job to protect them" lol. That contract is impossible to fulfill. Government fail after government fail and they still demand the government protect them even though they have the means to do it themselves.

Jed Meyers
04-29-2014, 8:45 PM
What you're saying, I see it in SW Mexico. Armed "self defense" groups removed the cartel and some of individuals consider turning in their guns, they think that the issue is permanently solved and they don't take a second to think that the issue will come back when they turn in their guns. They think it's "the governments job to protect them" lol. That contract is impossible to fulfill. Government fail after government fail and they still demand the government protect them even though they have the means to do it themselves.

In post Soviet states government's job is not only to protect, but to do everything else as well. They expect government to teach you, to give you a job, tell you what movies to watch, etc.

bubbapug1
04-29-2014, 9:22 PM
Guys riderr is a troll. Don't feed the troll. Either that or he's doing heavy doses of vodka.

Why is this even in 2a??

riderr
04-29-2014, 9:27 PM
Guys riderr is a troll. Don't feed the troll. Either that it he's doing heavy doses of vodka.
Anyone who disagrees with you is a troll? Fancy...

Why is this even in 2a??yeah, should be moved or closed. Get's a bit boring.

riderr
04-29-2014, 9:29 PM
In post Soviet states government's job is not only to protect, but to do everything else as well. They expect government to teach you, to give you a job, tell you what movies to watch, etc.

It's more like European thing, where they had mighty royal kings of all kind. Different attitude due to the different cultural and historical background.

riderr
04-29-2014, 9:35 PM
What do you mean "no Ukrainian official questioned"? No Ukrainian official ever acknowledged the results as being legitimate. Even UN General Assembly acknowledged the same. U.N. General Assembly resolution calls Crimean referendum invalid (http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/27/world/europe/ukraine-crisis/)

They argued that the way the referendum was conducted wasn't legitimate. However, they have never claimed the casted ballots were made up or altered in any kind. Any time of day or night, the Crimean will vote for Russia over and over again. Anyone who studied the history of the conflict there will confirm it.

Speaking of UN. C'mon. It has become our puppet in the last decade. You remember any resolution passed, that U.S. was objecting to? ;)

riderr
04-29-2014, 9:42 PM
I find this very interesting because about a month ago the Ukrainian government was asking the "self defense militias" to turn in their guns and join the national guard if they wanted to carry guns.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/21/world/europe/ukraine-sets-deadline-for-militias-to-surrender-illegal-guns.html?_r=0

So what's it gonna? allow private ownership or not?

No, it's not. It was a type of para-military service. They encountered quite an unusual issue. Police and military literally turned their backs on the new government that had dismissed SWAT. So, they had to recruit civilians to the National Guard.

I'll tell you one thing for sure, the Russians aren't in favor of the Ukrainians owning weapons. It's not that. The new government don't want to distribute the guns to the entire country. They actually tried to take back the small arms from their former extremist allies, but epically (and predictably) failed.

Jimi Jah
04-30-2014, 9:51 AM
The Ukrainian people are the problem there. They just don't have that will like Americans. I don't believe they would fight for their freedom even if they were armed, it's not their nature. They have been oppresed and controlled for so many generations that their will is damaged.

Yes, I have been to Ukraine and that is my impression of the people there.

sl0re10
05-01-2014, 7:38 PM
Found this quote in the article, what a ridiculous reason to negate private ownership of firearms.

Too funny.

A: allow people to be armed: Less potential power over people but might save the country.
B: don't allow people to be armed: More potential control over people but might lose the whole enchilada.

Pols... B!