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rgs1975
03-17-2008, 9:42 AM
So what's available out there in the semi-auto .223 category that's legal for California and is not an AR variant, AK variant, SKS variant, Kel-Tec SU16 or Mini-14?

What Just Happened?
03-17-2008, 9:49 AM
To be honest, I can't think of anything else. Those are pretty much the options that are brought up when the semi .223 cali-legal question is brought up.

Browning BAR's aren't offered in .223 / 5.56. Nor are Remington 750's or Winchester SXR's. And Remington 7615's are pump.

Full Clip
03-17-2008, 9:52 AM
Well, you can always wait for a Blackstar...

moulton
03-17-2008, 9:58 AM
Vector arms V53/93
Robinson Arms XCR
Sig556
Saiga .223
Galil
FAL ( I remember one company was making a .223 one, the particular company escapes me though)

I am sure there are others but I cannot think of them

Full Clip
03-17-2008, 10:06 AM
Or go with a VQ... https://www.volquartsen.com/product/432

xr7boost
03-17-2008, 10:11 AM
So what's available out there in the semi-auto .223 category that's legal for California and is not an AR variant, AK variant, SKS variant, Kel-Tec SU16 or Mini-14?

Are you just curious, or are you really opposed to all of those?

rgs1975
03-17-2008, 10:13 AM
Are you just curious, or are you really opposed to all of those?

The AR, AK & SKS variants are nuetered in some way.
I've heard bad things about the Kel Tec.
Used to own a Mini-14 and was less than impressed.

Looking for other options.

Bowser
03-17-2008, 10:23 AM
Sig 556 or STG-556.

xr7boost
03-17-2008, 10:31 AM
The AR, AK & SKS variants are nuetered in some way.
I've heard bad things about the Kel Tec.
Used to own a Mini-14 and was less than impressed.

Looking for other options.

New mini-14 is a completely different gun.

I think with the recent developments in AR-legal technology, they don't feel limited at all. What they are capable of is well worth a funny looking grip/stock or a recessed mag release button.

jammer2k
03-17-2008, 10:31 AM
I've heard bad things about the Kel Tec.



What sort of bad things? There are many 'haters' of it who have never seen or handled one. I have one and find it a decent firearm, better than my Mini-14 for sure.

Iknownot
03-17-2008, 10:31 AM
I've heard bad things about the Kel Tec.
.

The SU is a nice little rifle. K-T has some quality control issues, but most issues people have with their SU can be fixed easily.

I'm not trying to convince you to get an SU, but if you go by what people seem to post around here, you'd think the rifle would just break by looking at it.

You should find someone with one that would let you try it out before you cross it off the list.

It's a fun, light, reasonably priced (especially used) 223 rifle.

rgs1975
03-17-2008, 10:32 AM
New mini-14 is a completely different gun.
How so?

3GunFunShooter
03-17-2008, 10:43 AM
Ruger replaced all the tooling to make the Mini-14.
Better machinery, tighter tolerances, it does shoot better than the old ones. They also have the target model.

aplinker
03-17-2008, 11:49 AM
Just cause your wife puts on lipstick and a new dress doesn't make her sexy again. The "new" Mini-XXs still suck.

I would say a U-15 or MMG AR isn't neutered, at all.

I would add SAIGA to the list, as it's not neutered.

Just because something is modified to be compliant doesn't make it neutered. For all functional purposes a MMG/U-15 AR is an AR.

MonsterMan
03-17-2008, 12:34 PM
MMG/U-15 users compete in 3-Gun matches and do just as good as regular AR shooters. I hear all the time from people that they love the MMG rifles because they are so functional. Not 'neutered' at all.

You just have to get over the "look" of the rifle looking a little different. Once you can do that, you will love it.

elSquid
03-17-2008, 12:47 PM
Just cause your wife puts on lipstick and a new dress doesn't make her sexy again. The "new" Mini-XXs still suck.


You've shot one? Are there any comprehensive reviews out now?

-- Michael

Hopi
03-17-2008, 12:57 PM
You've shot one? Are there any comprehensive reviews out now?

-- Michael

I think that he is saying that the Rugers have a 2nd function. When the wife is no longer attractive, the mini will still suck.....

mymonkeyman
03-17-2008, 1:03 PM
I don't think the Saiga .223 is neutered, so that would be my recommendation, although you would probably complain that it is not as accurate as an AR.

I think what you fail to realize is that not nearly as many people wouldn't be building AR's with BB fixed magazine guns or MMG/U-15 equipped if there were better alternatives with equivalent accuracy. (Other than the VQ and it's $2000+ price tag).

ViPER395
03-17-2008, 2:59 PM
Ruger replaced all the tooling to make the Mini-14.
Better machinery, tighter tolerances, it does shoot better than the old ones. They also have the target model.

Ruger Mini-14's don't come with a pencil barrel anymore like mine did.

Still love it though. Great shooter, and never fails.

http://perfectunion.com/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=76

mymonkeyman
03-17-2008, 3:06 PM
Ruger Mini-14's don't come with a pencil barrel anymore like mine did.

Still love it though. Great shooter, and never fails.

http://perfectunion.com/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=76

The other problem with the Mini-14 is finding decent 10 round mags at affordable prices.

Paradiddle
03-17-2008, 3:37 PM
The other problem with the Mini-14 is finding decent 10 round mags at affordable prices.

If you spend some time on a board that is more open minded toward Mini's you'll find that's not necessarily true. Spend time on perfectunion - there are some great 10 rounds that are in the same price range as good AR 10 round mags (American mag is the one most people recommend).

I love Calguns but Calguns hates on the Mini something fierce.

Jeff

sb_pete
03-17-2008, 3:47 PM
Vector arms V53/93
Robinson Arms XCR
Sig556
Saiga .223
Galil
FAL ( I remember one company was making a .223 one, the particular company escapes me though)

I am sure there are others but I cannot think of them

Add:
FNH FS-2000
Volquartson Evolution
HK SL-8
Masada

There are also the FN SCAR and that new Israeli thingy but I don't think either are obtainable at the moment but I could be wrong.
Hope that helps
-Pete

ViPER395
03-17-2008, 3:48 PM
The other problem with the Mini-14 is finding decent 10 round mags at affordable prices.

Wrong. I have 5 ten rounders by American Mag and they all work flawless from the factory. SS and blued.

It never ceases to amaze me how much misinformation about the Mini platform there is. For all of the people up on ARs here no one seems to be taking a second look at the Mini and its new tooling, beefier bbls, Target and NRA models, and all the upgrades you can do to them.

Why am I even bothering. :confused:

elSquid
03-17-2008, 4:27 PM
Wrong. I have 5 ten rounders by American Mag and they all work flawless from the factory. SS and blued.

It never ceases to amaze me how much misinformation about the Mini platform there is. For all of the people up on ARs here no one seems to be taking a second look at the Mini and its new tooling, beefier bbls, Target and NRA models, and all the upgrades you can do to them.


I'm certainly interested in the new Minis, pending some real reviews.

I'm considering picking up a blued .223.

-- Michael

aplinker
03-17-2008, 6:08 PM
My friend back home insisted he would go to jail if he built CA-legal AR (he's paranoid for some genuine reasons, though).

So, now, he has a mini. Brand new. NRA edition. I gave him a box of BH 68gr match. At 50yds it was shooting a 0.7-1" 5 shot groups, rested. I wasn't impressed.

elSquid
03-17-2008, 7:00 PM
So, now, he has a mini. Brand new. NRA edition. I gave him a box of BH 68gr match. At 50yds it was shooting a 0.7-1" 5 shot groups, rested. I wasn't impressed.

So, extrapolating, that's 1.4 to 2 at 100. I assume your friend is a decent shot?

What would you expect to see out of that round from an average 1 in 9 barreled CAR/M4gery?

-- Michael

aplinker
03-17-2008, 7:05 PM
So, extrapolating, that's 1.4 to 2 at 100. I assume your friend is a decent shot?

What would you expect to see out of that round from an average 1 in 9 barreled CAR/M4gery?

-- Michael

He can one-hole 100yds with a smithed .223 Rem700 (~0.4MOA)

An average AR is <MOA out of the box from a reputable builder with match ammo.

Hopi
03-17-2008, 7:08 PM
So, extrapolating, that's 1.4 to 2 at 100. I assume your friend is a decent shot?

What would you expect to see out of that round from an average 1 in 9 barreled CAR/M4gery?

-- Michael

You're not looking for a target gun with these options. With iron sights, 1-2" @ 100 yards should be adequate for your needs. Unless you are a very very good shooter, most guns will outshoot the shooter.

elSquid
03-17-2008, 7:30 PM
You're not looking for a target gun with these options. With iron sights, 1-2" @ 100 yards should be adequate for your needs. Unless you are a very very good shooter, most guns will outshoot the shooter.

Who said anything about my needs? :)

I was curious as to UCLA's expectations. I've also never shot the BH match ammo, so I've no experience there. If I had to guess I'd expect it to do well in any sort of target configured AR.

However, the NRA Mini is a 16 inch, 1 in 9 carbine so the logical config to compare it to would be a 16 inch, 1 in 9 AR carbine - and not some wundersmith built gun, but something like an off the shelf Stag.

{Shrug}

-- Michael

aplinker
03-17-2008, 7:33 PM
You're not looking for a target gun with these options. With iron sights, 1-2" @ 100 yards should be adequate for your needs. Unless you are a very very good shooter, most guns will outshoot the shooter.

I agree, but it's still a platform deficiency.

JeffM
03-17-2008, 7:38 PM
Daewoo DR200 if you can find one :D

vinny_land
03-17-2008, 10:32 PM
Well, you can always wait for a Blackstar...

Isnt the builder still in the sandbox?

ViPER395
03-17-2008, 10:39 PM
Isnt the builder still in the sandbox?

I've been looking forward to at least seeing a Blackstar available for almost two years now.

Full Clip
03-17-2008, 10:45 PM
I've been looking forward to at least seeing a Blackstar available for almost two years now.

Patience is a virtue, grasshopper. :)

chsk9
03-18-2008, 9:35 AM
Patience is a virtue, grasshopper. :)

This is pushing patience to a new level... but I still want one! more likely two or three. I think this will be hands down the best Cal legal .223 if it ever gets to market. Common guys!