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View Full Version : Full-Auto vs Semi-Auto Carrier


Eric_Oh
03-17-2008, 9:19 AM
Whats the difference between the two? Why would i be incline to purchase a Full-Auto if i will never be able to make this rifle a full auto?

I was looking through the options on CMMG's website and came across this. Hoping someone here could enlighten me. I tried a search, but no luck. Thanks in advance.

-a newb

RedDawn
03-17-2008, 9:31 AM
I'm thinking you're speaking of the AR15 type platform.
Here's some differences of the components...http://www.ar15.com/content/legal/AR15-M16Parts/

Some people find that the M16 bolt carriers are heavier because they do not have the rear milled off partially or completely. The extra weight, vs an AR15 bolt carrier, gives it more inertia for buffering.

This is all mute anyways though, no vendor is going to sell the M16 bolt carrier and ship into the PRK.:rolleyes:

Blacktail 8541
03-17-2008, 9:38 AM
The extra weight of the carrier helps to slow the extraction prosses minutely. Same as the addition of the heavy buffer.

Their are a lot of vendors that sale these carriers to California cutomers, they are not a controled item.

RedDawn
03-17-2008, 9:46 AM
The extra weight of the carrier helps to slow the extraction prosses minutely. Same as the addition of the heavy buffer.

Their are a lot of vendors that sale these carriers to California cutomers, they are not a controled item.

Very true, only the lower trigger groups are regulated, but the vendors I have spoken to just don't like CA for some reason...:D Of course theirs something to be said about just not getting into that sort of mess altogether.

Nanook
03-17-2008, 6:12 PM
Just had the same questions a week ago, and am halfway through the estimated two week ship date of my CMMG upper (first build!). CMMG has no problems shipping the full auto (M16) carrier to CA, built or not.

The other question I had, that others may have is CMMG specifically states that their semi-auto (AR15) carriers have shrouded firing pins, but do not state that about the full autos. The reason being that apparently all full auto carriers have shrouded firing pins.

Blacktail 8541
03-17-2008, 6:25 PM
Check out MSTN. They will shipp the Full auto carrier.

bohoki
03-17-2008, 6:32 PM
the atf says one should not use a m16 configured bolt carrier

http://www.ar15.com/content/legal/ar15-m16parts/boltCarrier.gif

colt chops off the whole lower bottom of the rear of the bolt, bushmaster shaves the hammer ramp area and leaves about an inch of the rear section(i assume to allow use of a lightning link)


http://www.olyarms.com/images/stories/carrier_identification/bolt_carriers_1.jpg
olympic only grinds about a half inch from the front or the rear lower sear area almost allowing it to appear to be a m16 lower but it will not contact the sear tripper thingie (official technical term ;) in an m16

many say it is fine to use one but not me if i wanted a smooth side bolt carrer for my retro upper so i would make sure and grind enough of the back rear of the bolt to not be within m16 spec

DrjonesUSA
03-17-2008, 6:50 PM
I'm not certain of the law, but definitely be very careful when installing ANY full-auto parts in a firearm.

I'd do more research on more forums before proceeding if I were you guys.

I believe that there may possibly be an issue with installing a full-auto bolt carrier even if there are no other full-auto parts in the gun and the gun is completely incapable of firing automatically.

Again, I'm not certain, check for yourself, but I think that's what I recall reading somewhere once.

With firearms, its always best to double-double check the law because we know how the ATF loves to railroad people.

bwiese
03-17-2008, 7:06 PM
Geez, heeeeere we go again.... this has been gone over several times here.

M16 bolt carriers are entirely legal to possess and install in an semiauto AR rifle.

Some vendors mistakenly lump them in with other 'evil' NFA-related parts leading to the confusion.

Many knowledgable AR vendors have been selling ARs with M16 bolt carriers, for years, for non-NFA civvy guns. This includes Colt as well as premiere vendors like CMMG, MSTN, Denny's/Global Tactical, etc.

[However, do NOT have any other M16 fire control parts installed or in your possession even at a separate location.]While you should not regard "Brand X sells item Y" as indicator of legality, this has been going on so long the top 10 premium AR mfgrs would all be in jail otherwise.
I do recall there is some ATF paper somewhere indicating bolt carriers alone don't make an AR illegal, just can't remember where.

Some folks find the heavier carrier allows for better cycling and longer lockup time.

Eric_Oh
03-17-2008, 7:28 PM
Thanks for all the input guys. I appreciate all the info. I assumed as much that the bolt carrier would be built to handle the abuse of auto fire and such perhaps be more robust. I would imagine the difference may be negligible when firing solely in semi auto. Perhaps i should email some of the mfg's and see what they have to say.

Anybody else want to chime and in put in their .02?

shark92651
03-17-2008, 7:57 PM
Based on how the ATF has bent over David Olofson, I would avoid it even though it is legal. You don't need it anyway and your semi-auto rifle will function just fine with the semi-auto version.

bwiese
03-17-2008, 8:05 PM
Based on how the ATF has bent over David Olofson, I would avoid it even though it is legal.

Irrelevant & nonissue.

You should make sure your gun doesn't double anyway - and that can happen regardless of carrier: crap parts, misassembled, etc.

If the latter happens and triggered a legal issue, the presence/absence of an M16 carrier is moot.

ptoguy2002
03-17-2008, 8:12 PM
He would have gotten bent over anyway.
As was stated confirmed by the prosecutor, it doesn't matter if its your grand daddy's old double barrel shotgun, if it fires twice, its a machine gun.

SemiAutoSam
03-17-2008, 8:39 PM
Bill
This is what the BATF has to say about M16 parts.

Its on page 3 of this PDF.

http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/2005/p53004/gen_info.pdf

In order to avoid violations of the
NFA, M16 hammers, triggers, disconnectors,
selectors and bolt carriers must
not be used in assembly of AR-15 type
semiautomatic rifles.


Geez, heeeeere we go again.... this has been gone over several times here.

M16 bolt carriers are entirely legal to possess and install in an semiauto AR rifle.

Some vendors mistakenly lump them in with other 'evil' NFA-related parts leading to the confusion.

Many knowledgable AR vendors have been selling ARs with M16 bolt carriers, for years, for non-NFA civvy guns. This includes Colt as well as premiere vendors like CMMG, MSTN, Denny's/Global Tactical, etc.

[However, do NOT have any other M16 fire control parts installed or in your possession even at a separate location.]While you should not regard "Brand X sells item Y" as indicator of legality, this has been going on so long the top 10 premium AR mfgrs would all be in jail otherwise.
I do recall there is some ATF paper somewhere indicating bolt carriers alone don't make an AR illegal, just can't remember where.

Some folks find the heavier carrier allows for better cycling and longer lockup time.

NeoWeird
03-17-2008, 8:46 PM
There are several problems with that PDF. Go over to arf and read about them tearing it apart. There's problems with the HKs, parts kits, NFA items, etc. It's like relying on the DOJ's Assault Weapon identification guide as a end all say all of what is legal. It's just not right on many issues.

There is actually a public notice/statement that was made by the ATF a couple years back that said an M16 carrier alone does not make the gun a machine gun. I've seen the letter but don't have it saved. I'm sure it could be found with a little searching.

bohoki
03-17-2008, 8:49 PM
Geez, heeeeere we go again.... this has been gone over several times here.

M16 bolt carriers are entirely legal to possess and install in an semiauto AR rifle.

Some vendors mistakenly lump them in with other 'evil' NFA-related parts leading to the confusion.

Many knowledgable AR vendors have been selling ARs with M16 bolt carriers, for years, for non-NFA civvy guns. This includes Colt as well as premiere vendors like CMMG, MSTN, Denny's/Global Tactical, etc.

[However, do NOT have any other M16 fire control parts installed or in your possession even at a separate location.]While you should not regard "Brand X sells item Y" as indicator of legality, this has been going on so long the top 10 premium AR mfgrs would all be in jail otherwise.
I do recall there is some ATF paper somewhere indicating bolt carriers alone don't make an AR illegal, just can't remember where.

Some folks find the heavier carrier allows for better cycling and longer lockup time.

if its ok to use a m16 carrier then why do the manufacturers go through the effort to make a different carrier that is inferior

why does colt,dpms,eagle armalite,olympic arms,bushmaster want to waste money and provide less than perfect products

SemiAutoSam
03-17-2008, 8:53 PM
While that may be true, The BATF are from my experience a lot less forgiving than the California DOJ/BOF Clowns. And keeping this in mine I would just steer clear of any M16 parts in my AR15's.

We are responsible for our own actions and if you can afford the legal entanglements and time time off work etc IE if the benefits out weigh the risks IYO then go for it.



There are several problems with that PDF. Go over to arf and read about them tearing it apart. There's problems with the HKs, parts kits, NFA items, etc. It's like relying on the DOJ's Assault Weapon identification guide as a end all say all of what is legal. It's just not right on many issues.

There is actually a public notice/statement that was made by the ATF a couple years back that said an M16 carrier alone does not make the gun a machine gun. I've seen the letter but don't have it saved. I'm sure it could be found with a little searching.

Riodog
03-17-2008, 9:17 PM
Bohoki, just a note, the bolt in my Colt ar 9mm is the same animal as a FA 9mm bolt. I suppose it has sumptin to do with the 9mm being straight blowback type action.
Rio

bohoki
03-17-2008, 10:45 PM
Bohoki, just a note, the bolt in my Colt ar 9mm is the same animal as a FA 9mm bolt. I suppose it has sumptin to do with the 9mm being straight blowback type action.
Rio

doesnt really answer the question why they make a different than m16 one

SemiAutoSam
03-17-2008, 10:47 PM
Intimidation from BATF ? somewhat like intimidation from California DOJ on OOS manufacturers, OLL Dealers.

doesnt really answer the question why they make a different than m16 one

Pryde
03-17-2008, 10:52 PM
Sam, stop trying to mis-inform people about the legality of auto M16 carriers, you know just as well as everyone else that they are perfectly legal.

This is a non-issue, almost all major AR manufacturers ship their factory rifles with M16 carriers nowadays.

Olofson is a moot point, that dude f*'d up in more ways than one. The guy had filed away material from the lower and he had a 3 position selector.

bwiese
03-17-2008, 11:02 PM
Some mfgrs do things for whatever reasons they do - just like dealers not wanting to handle OLLs, etc.

Most folks don't need one, true.

And folks shooting anemic commercial ammo may have more cycling/extraction issues with a heavier carrier: a lighter carrier can mask problem like bad gas port size (or blockage), leaky gas key, tight or rough chamber, etc. I think that's the reason many co's use a lighter carrier: it can mask other issues esp with crap ammo.

Y'all know how cautious I am. But I have no fear admitting here in public on a watched forum that I have an AR with an M16 carrier. (I possess no NFA fire control parts.) My rifle can't/won't double.

bwiese
03-17-2008, 11:03 PM
This is a non-issue, almost all major AR manufacturers ship their factory rifles with M16 carriers nowadays.

Olofson is a moot point, that dude f*'d up in more ways than one. The guy had filed away material from the lower and he had a 3 position selector.

Thanks, Pryde, you got it bro.

SemiAutoSam
03-17-2008, 11:08 PM
My comments in RED. Post evidence of your proof that they are legal to use in AR15's that states something opposite of the BATF quote.

No I do not know that they are legal to use in AR15 Rifles. In fact I would tend to claim just the opposite from evidence of the BATF website quote.
Sam, stop trying to mis-inform people about the legality of auto M16 carriers, you know just as well as everyone else that they are perfectly legal.

I have not seen this and until I do see this given the evidence from the BATF website that states clearly "In order to avoid violations of the
NFA, M16 hammers, triggers, disconnectors,
selectors and bolt carriers must
not be used in assembly of AR-15 type
semiautomatic rifles." I will rely on such information.

This is a non-issue, almost all major AR manufacturers ship their factory rifles with M16 carriers nowadays.


Where did you get this idea ?
Olofson is a moot point, that dude f*'d up in more ways than one. The guy had filed away material from the lower and he had a 3 position selector.

AJAX22
03-17-2008, 11:08 PM
All of my AR15 rifles have M16 Bolt Carriers,

At last count I had something like 8 or 9 of them kicking around in various guns/uppers.

Its legal.

Why do I have them? Because Its legal and I feel like it!



However, I do NOT use any M16 FCG parts in any of my guns as that would be a NFA violation

ar15barrels
03-17-2008, 11:16 PM
This is all mute anyways though, no vendor is going to sell the M16 bolt carrier and ship into the PRK.:rolleyes:

I sell M16 carriers and I am IN California. ;)

ar15barrels
03-17-2008, 11:19 PM
The extra weight of the carrier helps to slow the extraction prosses minutely. Same as the addition of the heavy buffer.

Actually, NOT the same at all.
The difference in weight between a semi-auto carrier and an M16 carrier is 0.3oz

The difference in weight between a standard carbine buffer and an H buffer is 0.7oz.

ar15barrels
03-17-2008, 11:21 PM
The other question I had, that others may have is CMMG specifically states that their semi-auto (AR15) carriers have shrouded firing pins, but do not state that about the full autos. The reason being that apparently all full auto carriers have shrouded firing pins.

The shrouded "enhanced semi auto" carrier has become the standard with most companies.

http://ar15barrels.com/tech/ar15carriers.jpg

ar15barrels
03-17-2008, 11:24 PM
I'm not certain of the law, but definitely be very careful when installing ANY full-auto parts in a firearm.

You only need be concerned with parts that would make it fire more than one shot for each time you pull the trigger.
Without an autosear, trigger, disconnector and hammer, an M16 carrier is NOT going to make it fire more than one shot for each pull of the trigger.

NeoWeird
03-17-2008, 11:55 PM
And the logic of "well why would they make a different carrier if the FA carrier was legal? It must be illegal!" is way WAY out there. I suppose all us folks with small pin lowers are breaking the law too, since they wouldn't have made those large pin lowers for no reason at all if the small pin lowers were legal.

Manufacturers have done a LOT of things in the past to segregate between civilian and military firearms. That line is getting refined more and more each day as the definition of what is legal and isn't legal is getting more and more defined. ATF has declared that FA carriers alone in a rifle are not illegal; so why would manufacturers continue to go through an extra manufacturing process (or more) for a civilian rifle when they don't need to? Some still do, for the same reason Ruger wouldn't see "high caps" to the public even before and after the ban. Some companies like to kiss the politician's butt.

aplinker
03-18-2008, 12:01 AM
My rifle can't/won't double.

Oh I'm pretty sure I could make it double without the addition of any NFA parts. But it has nothing to do with the M16 carrier, either.

NeoWeird
03-18-2008, 12:40 AM
Oh I'm pretty sure I could make it double without the addition of any NFA parts. But it has nothing to do with the M16 carrier, either.

Many semi-auto rifles can do that by taking parts OUT. Getting a firearm to do multiple shots for one pull is easy; it's controling it safetly that is the problem. Heck, a grain of sand in the right place can turn just about any semi-auto gun into a full auto.

Just don't tell that to the DOJ, or else outdoor ranges will be banned! :eek:

Pryde
03-18-2008, 12:49 AM
My comments in RED. Post evidence of your proof that they are legal to use in AR15's that states something opposite of the BATF quote.

Sam,
I didn't want to bring this up, but if you really believe that M16 carriers are illegal, why is it that 5 months ago you responded to my ad selling an M16 carrier asking if you could buy/trade for it?

Are you admitting that you were trying to buy something that you believe is illegal? Or is this hypocrisy?

SemiAutoSam
03-18-2008, 12:53 AM
I happen to own a M16 Registered on a Form 4 in Nevada.

Wanting a spare for one of my title 2 guns.

Did not want to purchase it for any of my AR15 Rifles within California.

Thanks for your concern however.


Sam,
I didn't want to bring this up, but if you really believe that M16 carriers are illegal, why is it that 5 months ago you responded to my ad selling an M16 carrier asking if you could buy/trade for it?

Are you admitting that you were trying to buy something that you believe is illegal? Or is this hypocrisy?

shark92651
03-18-2008, 12:53 AM
Sam,
I didn't want to bring this up, but if you really believe that M16 carriers are illegal, why is it that 5 months ago you responded to my ad selling an M16 carrier asking if you could buy/trade for it?

Are you admitting that you were trying to buy something that you believe is illegal? Or is this hypocrisy?

Pryde, you are calling SAM out - on post 666 no less! How absolutely evil of you :reddevil:

aplinker
03-18-2008, 1:30 AM
Many semi-auto rifles can do that by taking parts OUT. Getting a firearm to do multiple shots for one pull is easy; it's controling it safetly that is the problem. Heck, a grain of sand in the right place can turn just about any semi-auto gun into a full auto.

Just don't tell that to the DOJ, or else outdoor ranges will be banned! :eek:

Yeah, that's what I was referring to... it's a common problem.

It's asinine that somehow a malfunction is considered a FA weapon.

This innate distrust of people irks me. Ever notice it's people who don't trust that are the least trustworthy?

Pryde
03-18-2008, 1:32 AM
Pryde, you are calling SAM out - on post 666 no less! How absolutely evil of you :reddevil:

I think Sam is living in opposite land:

He goes around telling people that OAL is measured in CA with a stock extended, not folded.

Yet, he somehow believes that if you have a M16 carrier, the ATF will bust down your door............... :rolleyes:

Eric_Oh
03-18-2008, 1:55 AM
wow... i didnt think my question would spark such a heated debate.

All i was trying to find out is what advantages there are to each so i can decide which one to order with my cmmg upper.

I'm not yet decided either way but....
i haven't heard anything for the pro's to having a semi auto carrier.
Any?

ar15barrels
03-18-2008, 9:02 AM
He goes around telling people that OAL is measured with a stock extended, not folded.

Per the feds, it is measured extended.
Per the state, it is measured collapsed/folded.

SemiAutoSam
03-18-2008, 9:10 AM
While it may not always apply here I try to use Logic and since the term "OAL" stands for "Over All Length" measuring extended would logically be more "Over All" But maybe thats just one of my defects.

I also posted a link and QUOTE from the BATF website that stated

http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pu...4/gen_info.pdf

In order to avoid violations of the
NFA, M16 hammers, triggers, disconnectors,
selectors and bolt carriers must
not be used in assembly of AR-15 type
semiautomatic rifles.

And some of you insist that the M16 Bolt Carrier is legal but give no proof of this.

Lets address this issue rather than veering off to what I consider the definition of OAL is.

Per the feds, it is measured extended.
Per the state, it is measured collapsed/folded.

DrjonesUSA
03-18-2008, 1:18 PM
You only need be concerned with parts that would make it fire more than one shot for each time you pull the trigger.
Without an autosear, trigger, disconnector and hammer, an M16 carrier is NOT going to make it fire more than one shot for each pull of the trigger.


I understand the mechanics of that completely, however as Bweise agrees, even possessing all of those parts in CA (and any other state if you do not have papers for that autosear) is a one-way ticket to a not-so-fun place.

Pryde
03-18-2008, 2:16 PM
I also posted a link and QUOTE from the BATF website that stated
And some of you insist that the M16 Bolt Carrier is legal but give no proof of this.


Here is your proof Sam.
Maybe you should post pictures of your supposed Title 2 M16, since it seems like your stock reply to anything is to post pictures bragging about your guns.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v698/sickeness/ShowLetter.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v698/sickeness/ShowLetter2.jpg

Straight from the horses mouth from the ATF to COLT DEFENSE.
This discussion is over.

SemiAutoSam
03-18-2008, 2:47 PM
That's interesting, Somewhat blurry.

So first they say one thing and then they say another or so it seems.

Looks a lot like DOJ propaganda
Is it your contention that this letter will keep you out of the grey bar hotel if some unknowing LEO pops you

BTW I'm not at all Embarrassed by posting what I found on the BATF website in reference to the topic of this thread.

If it keeps one idiot out of trouble its worth the effort.

If you feel the need to have a M16 Carrier in your AR then go for it as you have a jpg of the magic letter that tends to contradict whats on the BATF website and what the letter quotes itself.

Reminds me of a line delivered by Dan Aykroyd in the John Belushi film 1941.

But its interesting legal ease nonetheless. LOL

However it would be nice to see you stop taking this tone when your addressing me.





Here is your proof Sam, now are you going to kindly stfu or are you going to open your mouth again and embarrass yourself further?

Maybe you should post pictures of your supposed Title 2 M16, since it seems like your stock reply to anything is to post pictures bragging about your guns.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v698/sickeness/ShowLetter.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v698/sickeness/ShowLetter2.jpg

Straight from the horses mouth from the ATF to COLT DEFENSE.
This discussion is over.

bohoki
03-18-2008, 3:48 PM
seems to me that if the part doesnt make it fire as a machine gun it is legal

so you could use a m16 trigger and hammer and selector and disconector too since they will not cause it to fire automatically without the autosear that the bolt back bumps


maybe we could get letters for each and every other part too

they say not to do it, but if it doesn't make it a machine gun its fine?

as to me before i use a m16 bolt i would chop a little bit off the sear area like olympic arms does

http://www.olyarms.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=29&Itemid=42

-hanko
03-18-2008, 3:48 PM
:beatdeadhorse5:...along the lines of last summer's discussion of whether a non-sear cut FAL will get you jail time;)

It's already been established that atf has recanted the letter in the 2 posts above this one. It's also been established that a ton of mouse gun makers ship m16 bc's with their rifles/uppers/kits.

The original question involved the bc...not the auto-sear or anyting else.

No one, to my knowledge, has been charged with/tried/sentenced for having an m16 bc in a non-nfa gun. If I'm wrong, I'm very good at being corrected; please provide a cite.

We are aware you have (or at least have posted pictures of) some very beautiful FAL's.

-hanko

mltrading
03-20-2008, 7:34 PM
Yes, the F/A BCs are totaly legal to use.

Currently, our upper halves are all with F/A BCs.

bohoki
03-20-2008, 8:34 PM
hmm any body have a place with a good price for a smooth side m16 carrier group

randy
03-21-2008, 2:01 AM
I love these drop pull and measure threads.