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Deadred7o7
03-17-2008, 1:15 AM
What is the difference between the M4 and the standard rifle?
this is what I'm looking

http://www.del-ton.com/AR_15_Rifle_Kits_16_s/57.htm


Is it just the M4 has the better feed ramps?

Deadred7o7
03-17-2008, 1:31 AM
So its just shorter, is it because of the stock or will my Stag lower not work for this config. ?

Deadred7o7
03-17-2008, 1:46 AM
Thanks for the info

J_Rock
03-17-2008, 2:30 AM
Basically any 14.5",14.7" or 16" gov't profile barrel with a m203 notch in it with a collapsible stock

aplinker
03-17-2008, 2:48 AM
Not exactly. The M4 is a specific build, by Colt.

There are pseudo-M4's aka M4gerys.

Look at the pics in the .223 photo gallery to get an idea of what can be built.

Army
03-17-2008, 10:29 AM
True M4 will have an illegal to own by most civilians length barrel. You can mount a true M4 barrel, as long as you also permanently install an extra long compensator to make the assembly 16+ inches long (measured from the in-battery bolt face forward)

Deadred7o7
03-17-2008, 10:45 AM
But if you look at the link they are selling both with 16' barrels why is the M4 more $ ??/

aplinker
03-17-2008, 10:51 AM
Why are you shopping at Del Ton?

Hopi
03-17-2008, 10:55 AM
Here is a CA-compliant "M4", aka "M4gery"

-14.5" barrel with permanent compensator to bring it over 16".
-M4 handguards
-M4 stock (post-ban, permanently fixed)

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y123/hopi420/P1010003-1.jpg

Deadred7o7
03-17-2008, 12:06 PM
Why are you shopping at Del Ton?
Its in my budget, Im looking at Model 1 sales also. If anyone can suggest other sites with rifle kits, I would like to stay under $600 for every thing but the lower. I like the idea of getting it all in one shot but I'm up for new ideas.

any input will help this newbee

drifts1
03-17-2008, 12:32 PM
AR15sales.com has a Stag kit for $633 I believe, its a little more than the $600 you wanted to stay under but well worth the upgrade in quality. Since he cant ship you the 30rd. mag that comes with the kit maybe Pete will discount the price some.

CombatMP
03-17-2008, 1:10 PM
Here is a CA-compliant "M4", aka "M4gery"

-14.5" barrel with permanent compensator to bring it over 16".
-M4 handguards
-M4 stock (post-ban, permanently fixed)

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y123/hopi420/P1010003-1.jpg

That's very nice, Thanks for sharing:cheers2:

edittman1
03-17-2008, 8:17 PM
AR15sales.com has a Stag kit for $633 I believe, its a little more than the $600 you wanted to stay under but well worth the upgrade in quality. Since he cant ship you the 30rd. mag that comes with the kit maybe Pete will discount the price some.

I purchased this same kit and am *extremely* pleased with the kit. Best deal in town for a first AR build!

shark92651
03-17-2008, 9:30 PM
What is the difference between the M4 and the standard rifle?
this is what I'm looking

http://www.del-ton.com/AR_15_Rifle_Kits_16_s/57.htm


Is it just the M4 has the better feed ramps?

Those Del-Ton kits seem a bit confusing to me. The two you are talking about look to have identical 16" barrels and uppers, yet the "M4" is pictured with no rear sight, yet is $10 more than the identical configured kit shown pictured with a detachable carry handle. Looking at the default configuration of the two kits I don't see any obvious differences. Add in the extra for chrome lined barrel and a rear sight and it's not looking all that good anymore.

My price on a Stag 2H upper (chrome lined and MI rear sight), LPK, and Tactical stock is around $632 + tax. If you buy from me you will have it in a couple days instead of a couple weeks :D

docsmileyface
03-17-2008, 9:37 PM
http://jtdistributing.net/store/kits_car.html has some OK deals on kits, not sure on the quality though, let you know on Wednesday when my girlfriend's upper comes in. It was like $324 shipped (less bolt group, with rail block instead of FSB) which is a pretty decent price, I think only Vulcan/AKPartskits can beat that for an upper.

blisster
03-17-2008, 9:37 PM
I believe the M4 kit comes with a collapsable stock and the "rifle" kit comes with a standard buttstock.

vega
03-22-2008, 6:32 PM
Why are you shopping at Del Ton?
What's wrong with Del-ton?

aplinker
03-22-2008, 6:59 PM
What's wrong with Del-ton?

Well, what's right about them, except price? They're bottom rung, random parts of dubious quality. They tend not to run right. If you like to gamble and don't mind potentially cruddy parts, feel free to buy.

The following is a good reflection of the general consensus (and my own feelings, short the actual act - what Bill does with his arse is his own business) with respect to M1S and DTI


And I'd jam a family of diamond-encrusted gerbils up my arse before I'd buy anything, including raw sewage, from Model 1 Sales.

vega
03-22-2008, 7:44 PM
Well, what's right about them, except price? They're bottom rung, random parts of dubious quality. They tend not to run right. If you like to gamble and don't mind potentially cruddy parts, feel free to buy.
Could you be more specific. I've seen you posted on some threads but mostly just saying that they are junk. Did your del-ton had FTE or FTF. Are most parts not dropped in? I'd rather not gamble that's why we asked questions here.


The following is a good reflection of the general consensus (and my own feelings, short the actual act - what Bill does with his arse is his own business) with respect to M1S and DTI
So M1s and DTI are same company?


And I'd jam a family of diamond-encrusted gerbils up my arse before I'd buy anything, including raw sewage, from Model 1 Sales.
I don't see Bill mentioning DTI here.

bwiese
03-22-2008, 8:32 PM
I don't see Bill mentioning DTI here.

DelTon seems to be staffed by nice folks that try to take care of their customers, but quite a few folks have told me their parts vary over time. And they don't sell chrome-lined barrels.

There's really not that much price savings over LMT, Bushy, CMMG, BravoCoUSA, etc.

vega
03-22-2008, 8:41 PM
Deadred - Sorry for the thread hi-jack.

Bill - DTI's website offers chrome lined barrel for extra $45. Or is that just moly? (right term?)

DelTon seems to be staffed by nice folks that try to take care of their customers, but quite a few folks have told me their parts vary over time. And they don't sell chrome-lined barrels.

There's really not that much price savings over LMT, Bushy, CMMG, BravoCoUSA, etc.

Charliegone
03-22-2008, 8:50 PM
DelTon seems to be staffed by nice folks that try to take care of their customers, but quite a few folks have told me their parts vary over time. And they don't sell chrome-lined barrels.

There's really not that much price savings over LMT, Bushy, CMMG, BravoCoUSA, etc.

Really? Mines chrome lined, but I bought it about 2 years ago. Did things really change that much?

Diablo
03-22-2008, 8:51 PM
Man, didn't you guys read shark's response? That's a great deal and you will be supporting Calguns vendors....;)

blisster
03-22-2008, 9:21 PM
DelTon seems to be staffed by nice folks that try to take care of their customers, but quite a few folks have told me their parts vary over time. And they don't sell chrome-lined barrels.

There's really not that much price savings over LMT, Bushy, CMMG, BravoCoUSA, etc.

I got a chrome lined barrel with my Del-Ton kit for an extra $40.00.

The LPK that came with it is fine, no different than a DMPS or any other LPK I"ve looked at.

The M4 stcok looks like any other generic M4 stock I've seen at shops or gun shows, seems to operate similarly, the spring is of decent quality, as is the buffer.

The upper itself seems solid, a full 16" threaded barrel with a standard flash-hider threaded on the end, BCG seems pretty simial to most others I've looked at. Charging handle, front sight, gas block, tube,. etc all seem to be very simial to stuff I've seen on the CWS tables at recent shows.

Time will tell. I may end up upgrading or replacing parts but who knows, it got me a functioning AR when that's all I was looking for. As I decide whether or not to trick it out, I may or may not upgrade specific parts.

YMMV.
(as may mine)

NeoWeird
03-22-2008, 9:38 PM
Ok, I will try to give some quick input.

Del-ton, as I understand it, makes little to none of their parts. They are more like a specialty retailer that specializes in low price instead of quality. So Del-ton is like a Wal-mart, in that they don't really have an in house brand. Instead they stock the cheapest items from each category they can get to satisfy a large customer base. From what I have heard, and seen, in regards to customer service, Del-ton is great people and they do right by their customers.

Now that said, Del-ton doesn't exactly have set details about their firearm parts because there are no permanent details. From what I have heard, they buy out surplus stocks from other companies, liquidations, etc to drop price and still maintain their profit margin. You may not get US made parts with Del-ton. You may end up with Hesse/Vulcan/Blackthorne/etc parts but with a slight price increase. That's how Del-ton keeps their prices so low (at least as I understand it).

For you average joe, it will probably work just fine. Now if you are ever going to use your rifle to hunt, beat it around, target shoot, etc then you might want to look somewhere else. As pointed out Stag kits, which are much better, can be had for about 10% more.

As for the Carbine and M4 price differences, I believe the main differences is barrel profil and the M4 has M4 feed ramps on the upper, which is where the main price difference comes in. Outside of that, they are essentially identical. Also, I believe the carry handle is pictured but is actually a selectable option and is not included in the base price.

I've had the truth revealed to me time and time again and I still don't learn sometimes (but I'm trying). Spend the time and invest in the proper gear and you won't regret it. You don't need to go spend $2k on a Noveske rifle, but do you really want a sub-quality $1k rifle because you didn't want to spend $1,060 instead?

NeoWeird
03-22-2008, 9:40 PM
I hear a lot of people give the "it looks the same" response a lot. It's not about looks, but function, reliability, and durability. Many times, these companies don't test their post heat treated parts. That may not mean much, but when you have micro-fractured hardened steel....well it's not a fun day at the range when it decides it's had enough.

Most of the reasons why professionals choose their parts is because of the things you CAN'T see.

aplinker
03-23-2008, 1:42 AM
Sorry, I left for the evening, but NeoW pretty much said everything I would have.

Go with one of the reputable companies who does full builds.

My choice, top to bottom, (Making sure to make the proper selection of parts and handling {e.g., chrome lining in barrel and BCG, extended M4 ramps, etc) are: Colt, LMT, CMMG, RRA. IMHO you can do better than those places using a builder and parts from the top companies, for less money.

I will make not of one thing. The more I look at the costs, the more convinced I am that CMMG is becoming less of a value choice with more "high end" parts. If you're considering a more top-end (not middle of the road) build, gather your parts and use an AR assembler (RECCE556, Randall @ AR15Barrels, M24Armorer, etc).

RECCE556
03-23-2008, 2:58 AM
UCLAplinker and NeoW pretty much said it all. I avoid M1S/Hess/Blackthorn/Vulcan/Delton/etc...even CMMG and Stag. I've had some quality issues with Stag so I consider them midrange on a good day. CMMG has had more problems so I rate them under Stag but not by much...basically, I won't buy uppers from CMMG or Stag for my personal use. :) Here's a dirty little industry secret. A lot of the low-end "commercial" parts are reject or out of spec parts from mil contracts, commercial only parts (meaning they aren't built to MIL specs) and lately, there has been a influx of cheap Chinese made parts being sold. How do you think they get the prices so low? ;)

Because I believe that most threads w/o pictures is useless, here's my contribution...

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa284/recce556/M41_0308-800.jpg

That is a real deal Colt 14.5" M4 1/7 Chrome Lined barrel mounted to a real deal Colt M4 upper...inside the upper is a Colt M16 BCG, Colt Charging Handle (with a PRI Big Latch). I've dolled it a bit with a GG&G FSB/Flip Up BUIS, a KAC 200-600M rear sight, a Daniel Defense 7.0 Lite rail, Trijicon ACOG TA33R-8, Vltor E-MOD, Magpul MIAD Full Kit, Tango Down VFG, KNS Anti-Rotation Pins, KAC panels, Ergo Ladder panels, etc., etc...mag is 30-round C-Products SS mag with a Magpul Ranger (this mag was built up from a pre-ban 30-round USGI mag)..and yes, it's a RAW (Registered "Assault" Weapon...aka a "Rifle" in free states) Oh, and the light (which you can't see cuz it's on the other side) is a Surefire Scout light on a LaRue QD mount.

I run a Phantom 5C1 (closed bottom) on most of my 14.5" because they suppress flash very well (and they're inexpensive to boot)...lately, I've been going with the PWS FSC556 as gives good flash suppression and works well as a brake (and it's classified by the BATFE as a muzzle brake for you MMG guys). However, if flash suppression is your main goal, then the AAC Blackout, Vortex and Phantom should be your choice (in that order...both in effectiveness and price)

As a back-up, I have a exact duplicate build to this one but that one is Duracoated FDE (with all matching FDE parts).

blisster
03-23-2008, 9:39 AM
what's the price tag on that build Reese?

ar15barrels
03-23-2008, 11:08 AM
what's the price tag on that build Reese?

If you have to ask...
But seriously, you can't buy that rifle at ANY price in CA today unless you are exempt of the AW law.

blisster
03-23-2008, 11:42 AM
If you have to ask...
But seriously, you can't buy that rifle at ANY price in CA today unless you are exempt of the AW law.

I'm aware that its illegal in california, jsut curious as to what the price tag would be. So I have to ask? Doesn't mean I can't afford it, nor that I necessarily want to buy it, I'm just curious.

NeoWeird
03-23-2008, 2:12 PM
UCLAplinker and NeoW pretty much said it all. I avoid M1S/Hess/Blackthorn/Vulcan/Delton/etc...even CMMG and Stag. I've had some quality issues with Stag so I consider them midrange on a good day. CMMG has had more problems so I rate them under Stag but not by much...basically, I won't buy uppers from CMMG or Stag for my personal use. :) Here's a dirty little industry secret. A lot of the low-end "commercial" parts are reject or out of spec parts from mil contracts, commercial only parts (meaning they aren't built to MIL specs) and lately, there has been a influx of cheap Chinese made parts being sold. How do you think they get the prices so low? ;)

You also have to remember that many companies, and Stag included last I heard, are still filling military contracts. Stag will be more inclined to send off in spec items to their contract and send borderline items to the commercial sector. While that's no excuse for out of spec parts, but wartime production should never be an indication to their actual production items.

Also, I KNOW that Blackthorne uses used/surplus parts for most of their rifle builds and I know they have been known to buy up military surplus M16/M4 style rifles...yet never offer these 'used' parts for sale. Model 1 Sales has also been known to buy these surplus kits and never offer them for sale. I've heard speculation that these companies refinish the uppers, reprofile or chop down the barrels, etc and sell them off as cheap parts kits/builds.

That may be alright with foreign produced items, but it sucks for the american made parts.

I'm aware that its illegal in california, jsut curious as to what the price tag would be. So I have to ask? Doesn't mean I can't afford it, nor that I necessarily want to buy it, I'm just curious.

The price is probably borderline of $2.5k

RECCE556
03-23-2008, 2:39 PM
what's the price tag on that build Reese?
First off, it's RECCE, not REESE. I know I'm cute but I'm no peanut butter cup... :)

"RECCE" is Brit slang for Reconnaissance..http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconnaissance

As for M4 build, here are the spec (these are general to retail pricing, YMMV). For the lower build, I just substituted a general OLL price because as you all well know, a RAW (Registered "Assault" Weapon) is not available for sale. If you were to substitute the generic OLL for a real deal Colt lower, even in free states it'd be up there ($300+). For a OLL Colt lower that can be brought into CA, you're looking at significantly more (~$800ish?) and honestly, it's not worth it. Just get a decent quality lower.

Upper
Colt M4 barrel (14.5", 1/7, 5.56 NATO) - $375
Colt M4 Upper - $225
Colt BCG - $225
Colt CH + PRI Mil. Latch - $55
LaRue 7.0 Lite - $279
KAC Panels - $60
Phantom 5C1 - $28
GG&G FSB/FU-BUIS - $170
KAC 200-600M Rear FU-BUIS - $180
Tango Down VFG - $66
ACOG TA33R-8 - $990
LaRue LT-105 (ACOG QD mount)-$95
Surefire Scout - $375
LaRue LT-172 (Scout QD mount) - $79
--------------------------------------
Upper Cost - $3202


Lower
OLL - $150
LPK (RRA) - $75
KNS Pins - $30
AAC Buffer - $80
Magpul MIAD Full Kit Grip - $45
Vltor E-MOD Kit - $190
ISMI Buffer Spring - $20
Troy OEM M4 Sling Mount End-Plate (not installed yet) - $45
--------------------------------------
Lower Cost - $635


Grand Total - $3837 and that doesn't include tax, shipping and/or labor


Randall (ar15barrels.com) performed the most excellent pin and weld job for the flash suppressor, I did the assembly. This upper has been through about five 3-day carbine courses (1000+ rounds per course) so far and it hasn't had a hiccup yet. I just make sure it's well lubed (like my ex, AR-15s love lube, don't let anyone tell you otherwise.)

RECCE556
03-23-2008, 2:48 PM
While that's no excuse for out of spec parts, but wartime production should never be an indication to their actual production items.
What you're saying about STAG is absolutely true and about the industry in general. However, every Colt part I've ever used has always been GTG, in-spec parts (not to say they're perfect, but I've had the fewest problems with Colt AR products).

I'm just saying that know what you're getting. If you're getting current STAG/CMT items, understand that you're not necessarily getting mil-spec quality parts (or quality parts period). It's a toss up and one thing I don't like on my builds are "variable" products. This is why I only use and recommend certain brands...and I'll be the first to jump ship when any brand goes south.

BlackReef
03-23-2008, 3:23 PM
This may have been touched on, but in my opinion, a TRUE M4 is the Military based Colt version, with select fire capability (full auto). (Safe/Semi/Auto)

As well as a real M16. The only "real" M16's in my opinion are the Military based Colt Versions with the 20" barrel and A2 Stock, with select fire capability. Except as oppose to Full Auto in the M4 version, the M16 has 3-Rd Burst. (Safe/Semi/Burst)

Anything else is just M4gery

BlackReef
03-23-2008, 3:33 PM
The "real" M4 has Safe/Semi/Burst.


Correct. I should have been more specific. The M4A1 is Full Auto. (S-1-F) The standard Colt M4 Carbine, along with the M16A2 through A4 have been burst. (S-1-3)

aplinker
03-23-2008, 3:36 PM
The "real" M4 has Safe/Semi/Burst.

And the REAL M16's are made by FN, but we're all just playing along nice.

RECCE556
03-23-2008, 3:48 PM
This may have been touched on, but in my opinion, a TRUE M4 is the Military based Colt version, with select fire capability (full auto).
This is true but the only difference on my build vs. a real M4 is the fact that I don't have a select fire lower. The barrel, upper, BCG are the exact same units as on a real M4.

M4geries, to me, are the loads of commercial "M4 looking" parts out on the market and 16" "M4 cut" barrels (Colt or otherwise)

BlackReef
03-23-2008, 3:52 PM
This is true but the only difference on my build vs. a real M4 is the fact that I don't have a select fire lower. The barrel, upper, BCG are the exact same units as on a real M4.



You have a Colt M4 Upper Receiver with an M16/M4 BCG?

RECCE556
03-23-2008, 4:26 PM
You have a Colt M4 Upper Receiver with an M16/M4 BCG?
Yes. That barrel is a real Colt M4 barrel (1/7, 14.5", 5.56MM NATO chamber)...the top number on that label is the NSN number. You don't get that on a commercial part. ;)
http://i31.tinypic.com/qohlk9.jpg

Of course to make it non-NFA, I have a perm. attached Phantom 5C1 to get the barrel just past 16". The BCG is a Colt M4 BCG (Colt "gold" extractor spring, black buffer, CRANE O-Ring...all specific to the M4's)...and yes, M16/M4 BCG's are Federal and State legal in semi-auto AR (for those of you who don't know). The upper is a Colt M4 (M4 ramps, M4 stamp, Alcoa Forging, Raised "C"...I also have a Colt Defense Canada marked one too...it has the stylized "D" for Diemaco which Colt now owns.) The upper also has the sear relief and the takedown pins are MILSPEC .250".

aplinker
03-23-2008, 4:35 PM
FN makes or made M16A2's, M16A3's (and some M16A4's IIRC).

The real M16's were made by Colt. Followed by the M16A1. Some A1's were made by a few other companies. Colt developed the M16A2m but the gov screwed up and gave a contract and the technical data package to FN to build A2's. Long history.

Colt currently has a contract for M16A4's

:) I was just pointing out that most people forget about the sad little fact FN makes M16s...

Of course there's that whole episode in history when Mattel was making the M16 ;) ;)

docsmileyface
03-23-2008, 5:04 PM
The only time I saw Colt M16s in the Army was a couple of A2's in basic training six years ago, everything since then (especially M16A4s) has been made by FN.

CombatMP
03-23-2008, 5:07 PM
:) I was just pointing out that most people forget about the sad little fact FN makes M16s...

Of course there's that whole episode in history when Mattel was making the M16 ;) ;)

Funny:D, I remember when I was in the U.S. Army 85-89, I was issued a M16A1 made by General Electric. And now GE's current company motto is "brings good things to life." :rolleyes:

RECCE556
03-23-2008, 5:28 PM
Speaking of GE...this is one GE product I'd like to own...

http://tri.army.mil/LC/CS/csa/xm214.jpg

I just don't think I could afford to feed it!:(

ar15barrels
03-23-2008, 5:51 PM
Grand Total - $3837 and that doesn't include tax, shipping and/or labor

Good parts add up quick don't they. ;)

blisster
03-23-2008, 5:52 PM
First off, it's RECCE, not REESE. I know I'm cute but I'm no peanut butter cup... :)

"RECCE" is Brit slang for Reconnaissance..http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconnaissance


My apologies RECCE!, I shoulda taken a second/closer look before posting!

That is a beautiful rifle indded!

Thanks for the info.

ar15barrels
03-23-2008, 5:56 PM
Speaking of GE...this is one GE product I'd like to own...

http://tri.army.mil/LC/CS/csa/xm214.jpg

I just don't think I could afford to feed it!:(

Kent Lomont has one for sale at Knob Creek.
The price keeps going up each year.
It's probably north of 300k by now. :eek:

RECCE556
03-23-2008, 6:43 PM
It's probably north of 300k by now. :eek:
OUCH. Does that come with a tub of KY? Imagine if Supreme Court made it so that the May '86 NFA ban went away...I'd be first in line for a Dillon Aero LIGHTWEIGHT M134 (Titanium)...and a LOT of ammo...how much are kidneys going for on the black market??

http://www.dillonaero.com/uimages/m134d_gun_systems/m134dt_titanium.jpg


Good parts add up quick don't they. ;)
Hell yeah they do!

aplinker
03-23-2008, 7:18 PM
Not enough for one of those. Let alone to shoot it.

OUCH. Does that come with a tub of KY? Imagine if Supreme Court made it so that the May '86 NFA ban went away...I'd be first in line for a Dillon Aero LIGHTWEIGHT M134 (Titanium)...and a LOT of ammo...how much are kidneys going for on the black market??

http://www.dillonaero.com/uimages/m134d_gun_systems/m134dt_titanium.jpg



Hell yeah they do!

RECCE556
03-23-2008, 10:00 PM
Not enough for one of those. Let alone to shoot it.
Damn, so I have sell BOTH of mine and maybe one of your's? Thanks for crushing my dreams....:mad:



What Dillon needs to do is come up with a way to attach an upgraded 1050 to the spent brass chute.
THAT would be FRICKEN' AWESOME! Now if I can just find some more kidneys...

aplinker
03-24-2008, 1:08 AM
A machinegun that reloads itself from spent brass would be the best.

But then... powder and bullets STILL add up.

I'm guessing witnessing one of those shooting or shooting them a couple times would be enough. Without "reactive targets" it would just be a whole bunch of lead. The separation distance between firearm and shooter would make it feel awful "video game" like...

I'd sell 1/2 a kidney to borrow it for a week.

Damn, so I have sell BOTH of mine and maybe one of your's? Thanks for crushing my dreams....:mad:



THAT would be FRICKEN' AWESOME! Now if I can just find some more kidneys...

ar15barrels
03-24-2008, 8:00 AM
I'm guessing witnessing one of those shooting or shooting them a couple times would be enough.

Knob Creek.
Just go.

Ryan HBC
03-24-2008, 9:40 AM
OUCH. Does that come with a tub of KY? Imagine if Supreme Court made it so that the May '86 NFA ban went away...I'd be first in line for a Dillon Aero LIGHTWEIGHT M134 (Titanium)...and a LOT of ammo...how much are kidneys going for on the black market??

http://www.dillonaero.com/uimages/m134d_gun_systems/m134dt_titanium.jpg



Hell yeah they do!


I'm just going to wait for GSG to make the .22lr conversion.

-hanko
03-24-2008, 9:55 AM
I'd sell 1/2 a kidney to borrow it for a week.
The money from the kidney wouldn't feed it for 2 days.

-hanko