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T Guns
03-16-2008, 9:20 PM
I'm not a gun expert or anything (pretty much a beginner) but I do know a decent amount about firearms compared to the average Joe. last time I was at the outdoor range with some friends, my one friend and I had a pretty lengthy discussion/debate over the subject of long-range target shooting with rifles. anyways we came up with a ridiculous "what if" scenario and neither one of us can convince the other who is right/wrong. this is all just for fun, but I figured instead of talking out of thin air with my limited knowledge, some rifle experts on this forum could give me some insight into who is "more" right (or wrong)...anyways, it goes something like this:

so we were on a private range, guessing it was 150~200 yards. my friend has a cheap but reliable Mosin-Nagant (not sure exactly which model, one of the standard/long rifles though). we were setting up targets at probably about 150 yards. he is clearly a better shot than me-- no optics, just the iron sights, at one point he hit something like 4/5 shots into maybe a basketball-sized target. anyways he was making consistent hits while I'm not even close most of the time. I think he has 15/20 vision or something! crap.

anyways, this situation got us into an entire debate about long-range shooting. he seems to think if he had a rifle that was capable of firing far enough along with a decent optic/sight, he could easily hit a target at 1000 yards. now again I'm no expert, but from what little I know I tried to argue that at 1000+ yards a lot more factors come into play than just your general marksmanship ability. we kept debating back and forth but since neither one of us are that knowledgeable about this kind of stuff, it just became a pointless discussion! for some reason we set the following "standards" as a definition of what we're talking about in this debate:

- modern rifle w/optics (unspecified)
- 1000 yards
- 10 shots
- watermelon as the target

the guidelines are pretty arbitrary I guess, but seeing as my friend says he's going to be building a rifle pretty soon we actually may get to see who is right. until then, any insight into this debate is appreciated! I'm convinced that even given 10 shots it will be blind luck if he hits it one time. after all, neither one of us has any experience shooting over 100-200 yards OR shooting with optics. but right now it's just a load of trash talk! help me out here...

oh also, if anyone has any suggestions on a decent rifle platform for long-range marksmanship -- that doesn't cost a fortune -- then I'd really appreciate that info as well! thanks!

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/8651/71683416cl3.jpg

s2000news
03-16-2008, 9:28 PM
Oh, it could be done. An AR can hit that shot no prob.

Satex
03-16-2008, 9:29 PM
A bullet is an aerodynamic projectile. While in flight, mass, aerodynamic shape, velocity, gyroscopic stabilization, and wind all come into play. While many firearms can fire a projectile to about 1000 yards, the ability of the shooter to place the shot is doubtful.
Just like with anything, a firearms/ammo combination is designed to be effective at a specific range. As you exceed that envelope the behavior of the bullet becomes difficult to model and predict. There is no doubt in my mind a Mosin round would travel 1000 yards, I would doubt you would be able to hit a watermelon consistently.

Ugly Dwarf
03-16-2008, 9:46 PM
With Optics: Yes

Without Optics: Yes

http://arizona.rifleshooting.com/palma.html

"15 shots at 1000 yards (2 sighters, 20 minutes) "

"All rifles are equipped with Iron sights, no magnification or scopes. Most rifles are custom built, 12 to 14 lbs, single shot, bolt actions. "

That said, it's not easy.

psssniper
03-16-2008, 9:49 PM
50 BMG


thats all you need to know ;)

AJAX22
03-16-2008, 9:53 PM
I saw a guy hit a 3 foot circular steel gong with a 1943 Colt 1911 using wolf ammo.

He walked the bullets into the target, adjusting slightly for impact.

Hit it on the sixth round.

Won two dollars from my buddy and I who bet him he couldn't do it in 7 shots or less.

I believe it was 380 yards away.

J_Rock
03-16-2008, 9:53 PM
Know your bullet drop and your windage and its very possible.

Stormfeather
03-16-2008, 10:06 PM
Standard Marine Corps Riflemans Qualification is 500 meters, iron (open) sights. Each and every Marine, regardless of mos (job specialty) has to do this. So 1000 yds isnt that much of a stretch. Ive personally done 700 meters consistently with an M16a2 with open sights. Ive heard of 1000 yrd shots with open sights, and seen a few over in Iraq that were pretty darn close on open sights. But without actually "lasing" it, I couldnt say 100% that its been done. Im sure others here can tell of their experiences with the 1000 yrd shot. Its a long distance, but definitely do-able in my opinion.

Abenaki
03-16-2008, 10:11 PM
A watermelon at 1000 yards, with the right rifle and scope set up would be a piece of cake for some folks. I am not one of those folks.

I've never shot past 200 yards.

Varmint hunters have what is called "the 1000 yard club". These boys are nailing prairie dogs at that range!

take care
Abenaki

bohoki
03-16-2008, 10:31 PM
i'm not good with crosswinds but if i have a tailwind i'm average

depends on skill and ammo consistancy

Josh
03-16-2008, 11:23 PM
if he dosent know how to read the wind or adjust for drop, then no.

But then there is a chance he could walk it to the target, 10 shots is alot.

adamsreeftank
03-17-2008, 1:35 AM
A basketball size target is maybe 12 inches at 150 yards is 8 MOA.

A watermelon is maybe 24 inches at 1000 yards is 2.4 MOA.

Shooting at long range is much more complicated than shooting at 150 to 200yards. Obviously you have to deal with bullet drop, but windage and ensuring your bullet is still supersonic at 1000 yards is where the rubber meets the road.

Sal
03-17-2008, 1:40 AM
Its definately possible to hit at 1000 yards, for experienced shooters it should be doable in the first or second shot.

I know myself I can hit the steel targets 9/10 times at 400 yards at angeles with my PSL and open sights.

Army
03-17-2008, 2:01 AM
Camp Perry 1000yd service rifle is regularly under 10" groups. David Tubb has won the 1000yd for the last 400 years or so.......well, it seems that way.

1000yds is the "yardstick" by which .50BMG rifles are judged (as compared to Joe Shlep and his huntin' gun at 100yds).

For a varminter, a watermelon doesn't even rate as a challenge.

aplinker
03-17-2008, 2:54 AM
Yes, it's absolutely doable, and then some.

That's essentially the width of targets used in tactical shooting courses.

1000yds on that size is very doable with a good .308. It isn't that far for something like a 338 Lapua or 416 Barrett or 408 Cheytac...

It's very, very possible.

However, a prairie dog at 1000yds is more like the hole-in-one for golfers - no matter how good you are, it's going to take a LOT of luck (a 3" prairie dog head at 1000yds translates to 0.3MOA)

TKM
03-17-2008, 3:12 AM
IIRC the present world record for 50bmg at 1000 is five rounds in 2.6 inches for heavy gun. 2.603 for light gun. A Heineken bottle is 2.49 inches. The 50 is not the most accurate round out there either....

That being said, check out youtube for 1000 yard shooting.

There's a video of some guys plinking at a telephone pole with tracers in a variety of weapons. It'll give you some idea of the trajectory of the bullets at that range.

saki302
03-17-2008, 3:48 AM
With a good long range rifle and optics off the bench, 1000 yards is easy. With my Anzio .50BMG at 1000 yards, even with some wind, no problem.

If it's VERY gusty, forget it- unless you have a .50 or .408.

With open sights, it's possible if your eyesight is VERY good.

Now, if he can hit it at 1000 yards with open sights OFFHAND, then he's certainly earned your money, and maybe a free meal and keg :D

-Dave

packnrat
03-17-2008, 6:08 AM
A watermelon at 1000 yards, with the right rifle and scope set up would be a piece of cake for some folks. I am not one of those folks.

I've never shot past 200 yards.

Varmint hunters have what is called "the 1000 yard club". These boys are nailing prairie dogs at that range!

take care
Abenaki

the right gun, bullet, optical, and nerve one can keep the shot within a small apple.


.

viras
03-17-2008, 9:00 AM
oh also, if anyone has any suggestions on a decent rifle platform for long-range marksmanship -- that doesn't cost a fortune -- then I'd really appreciate that info as well! thanks!

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/8651/71683416cl3.jpg

A Savage 10FP (retails anywhere between about $650-$800) should do the trick, if you want a bolt-action.

Savage 10FP (http://www.savagearms.com/10fp.htm)

If you want a semi-auto, go with an AR-Platform, with a 24" Bull Barrel or something similar - but with an AR, you'll be spending more. For a decent quality long-range AR Build, count on at least $1500+ without optics.

T Guns
03-17-2008, 11:26 AM
oh yeah, some good info here. thanks to everyone for the replies!

let me just clarify that I am in no way debating whether or not a marksman can hit a 1000-yard shot. a few years back I read Carlos Hathcock's (auto?)biography and remember he hit several targets over 1 mile...that Canadian scout/sniper guy who hit something like a 1.6-miler in Afghanistan a few years back...military/law enforcement probably trains at 1000 yards regularly...etc. not to mention all the private citizens who do it just for fun! however, I support the thought that this kind of feat is absolutely a skill that you have to work at -- not something that just anyone could walk up and do simply because they have the right equipment (I think that is where the main point of this silly debate lies).

so my friend has limited experience with rifles and is of intermediate skill level. I think it's clear he has a knack for good accuracy and was surprisingly consistent at maybe 150 yards (iron sights on his Mosin). but past 150~200 yards he has absolutely zero target-shooting experience! I am basically saying the only way he'd hit the target would be blind luck, but most likely not at all. he's saying given 10 shots he could nail it with no problems whatsoever.

here's some, uh, updated "theoretical" guidelines that we'll have to follow if we ever actually get to test this out:

- target: watermelon at 1000 yards
- 10 shot limit, need to clearly hit the target 1 time
- let's also say "ideal" weather conditions just to be fair. a calm, clear day.
- for now assume the rifle platform is either a decent long-barrel AR or something like a bolt-action .308 just to keep it within reason. neither one of us is going to have access to a .50 anytime soon! (we were talking about more "common" rifle platforms when we first started this debate) either of the options viras listed sound perfect
- some sort of optic would be used. again, I'm about as much an expert on rifle optics/accessories as I am on rifles themselves (i.e. not even close) but some sort of decent sight I suppose. at least something that lets you get a sight picture at 1000 yards.

I guess if anyone has any further suggestions on rifle platforms, also optics, that would be interesting to know. otherwise any more opinions about who, if either one of us, may be right?! at this point I guess we'll just have to wait a little while until we can actually try it out...

P.S. if you guys think I'm on the wrong side of this debate I suppose I could just argue about the size restrictions of the watermelon until I win???

Mize
03-17-2008, 11:41 AM
I use a Rem. 700pss in .308 with a tacso SS scope and can make a hit about 50% of the time at 1000yrds. I have very little experience at that distance, but I know it can be done. Difficult for a newb, but easy for some of the guys I have seen at the Sac match.

viras
03-17-2008, 12:05 PM
I support the thought that this kind of feat is absolutely a skill that you have to work at -- not something that just anyone could walk up and do simply because they have the right equipment (I think that is where the main point of this silly debate lies).

so my friend has limited experience with rifles and is of intermediate skill level. I think it's clear he has a knack for good accuracy and was surprisingly consistent at maybe 150 yards (iron sights on his Mosin). but past 150~200 yards he has absolutely zero target-shooting experience! I am basically saying the only way he'd hit the target would be blind luck, but most likely not at all. he's saying given 10 shots he could nail it with no problems whatsoever.

here's some, uh, updated "theoretical" guidelines that we'll have to follow if we ever actually get to test this out:

- target: watermelon at 1000 yards
- 10 shot limit, need to clearly hit the target 1 time
- let's also say "ideal" weather conditions just to be fair. a calm, clear day.
- for now assume the rifle platform is either a decent long-barrel AR or something like a bolt-action .308 just to keep it within reason. neither one of us is going to have access to a .50 anytime soon! (we were talking about more "common" rifle platforms when we first started this debate) either of the options viras listed sound perfect
- some sort of optic would be used. again, I'm about as much an expert on rifle optics/accessories as I am on rifles themselves (i.e. not even close) but some sort of decent sight I suppose. at least something that lets you get a sight picture at 1000 yards.

I guess if anyone has any further suggestions on rifle platforms, also optics, that would be interesting to know. otherwise any more opinions about who, if either one of us, may be right?! at this point I guess we'll just have to wait a little while until we can actually try it out...

P.S. if you guys think I'm on the wrong side of this debate I suppose I could just argue about the size restrictions of the watermelon until I win???

Let me preface this by saying that I consider myself a terrible shot, as do most of my friends, and I'm also a n00b when it comes to rifles - I only got into this whole thing last year. :cool:

With that said, I can consistently hit a man sized target at 100, 125, and 150 yards, only using the iron sights on my AR.

With my Saiga .308, it's more hit than miss, but last time IIRC, I hit the target 6 out of 8 times at 100 yards (again, with just iron sights).

Keep in mind, these aren't tight groupings like the pros, these are a n00b's hopeless attempt to hit anything at those distances, so an arm counts as much as a head shot. :D:D

If I were to shoot in your hypothetical situation above with the current skills I possess, with a good scope/rifle combo, I think I could do it in 10 shots. Then again, at 1000 yards, any mistakes you may make at 100 yards would grow exponentially....i.e, if you're usually off by a couple of inches at 100 yards, you could be off by many feet at 1000 yards! .

I don't know, man...it's hard to say. There's too many variables to give you a "right" answer.

Question: Do you give the shooter the oppurtunity to zero the scope/rifle prior to their 10 attempts, or do they have to zero during the 10 attempts?

If the rifle/scope is pre-zeroed, then I think it could be done by a n00b/novice in 10 shots or less - or at least, I think I could do it...

cactus
03-17-2008, 12:14 PM
I know I use a custom remington 700 in 6mm I clocked the bullet at 4200 feet per second about 6 feet from the barrel. 600 yards I can do no problem 1000+ im pushing my limit for optic quality and personally it would be a hard shot for me ( especially since I havent shot it in over a year ). But I have a friend who is a avid long range shooter I can testify ground squirrel at 1000+ is doable. Im not saying he gets red mist every time but the guy is like a surgeon when it comes shooting his rifle. Im always amazed watching him shoot.

rksimple
03-17-2008, 12:34 PM
Given your updated criteria, its completely doable. You'd need a rifle capable of 1 moa or so, a scope with sufficient internal elevation adjustment to reach 1k (in the given caliber), and a basic dope chart. If you have 10 rounds, put a sighter in the dirt first, then hold off for the following shots (quickly, before conditions change). Not too complicated.

Timberwolf
03-17-2008, 12:43 PM
With the updated scenario yes it could be done if the person driving the rig knows what they're doing - shooting past 500 yards requires more than just a good rig it involves understanding the conditions, the location of the sun, the wind etc. The iron maiden I use at my matches is about that size . . . ask anyone how hard/easy it is to hit at 865 yards.

TKM
03-17-2008, 12:48 PM
Hold the shoot in Luling TX.

rksimple
03-17-2008, 12:58 PM
With the updated scenario yes it could be done if the person driving the rig knows what they're doing - shooting past 500 yards requires more than just a good rig it involves understanding the conditions, the location of the sun, the wind etc. The iron maiden I use at my matches is about that size . . . ask anyone how hard/easy it is to hit at 865 yards.

That dang maiden is only complicated by the inability to spot your misses. I think I'm going to put one in the dirt this time!

ViPER395
03-17-2008, 2:14 PM
http://youtube.com/watch?v=dTF6hzm6Gxw

Timberwolf
03-17-2008, 2:22 PM
That dang maiden is only complicated by the inability to spot your misses. I think I'm going to put one in the dirt this time!

Well I've suuggested before that if you don't know your dope on that stage to shoot a spoiler. :D

CHIGGA73
03-17-2008, 3:13 PM
TKM

i'd go shoot that without my Contacts, with irons sights. I about fell out of my chair!

adamsreeftank
03-17-2008, 3:35 PM
The biggest variable in your bet may be who is spotting and calling the shots. Unless you have a huge white backdrop, you may have trouble walking your shots to the target in 10 rounds. He may be able to spot for himself through the scope, but more likely you will need to tell him where his bullets are hitting using a spotting scope. If you give him good direction he should be able to do it. If you can't see the impacts, then he won't have a chance.

bruss01
03-17-2008, 3:53 PM
I think the OP was intending that the shooter achieve the feat without the assistance of a 3rd party... i.e., after you pop off your 10 shots we get in the car, zoom downrange and see if the watemellon was "clearly hit" at least once. It seems like it would be contrary to what he is trying to prove, not "is this within the range of human capability" but rather "can a dude without any help or any special training or tons of practice, just good basic marksmanship skills, with normal equipment commonly available at any corner gun store, achieve this?" - it seems THAT is the core of his discussion with his sureshot friend. Adding a 3rd person at the 200 yard mark from the target with binoculars and a radio telling the shooter "too low, make the next one 2" higher" seems like it defeats the purpose of the bet. I think the bet focuses on his friend, with his friend's current skill set and experience, making this shot with just common equipment that you could buy at Big 5 or Walmart. Sounds like the consensus is a definite maybe. I'm assuming a bench rest for this shot, even though it hasn't been specifically mentioned (has it?).

sb_pete
03-17-2008, 4:22 PM
Oh, it could be done. An AR can hit that shot no prob.
a match grade AR10 with ammo that stays supersonic out to 1000yds, yes. An AR15 would be by no means no prob. A great shooter, shooting heavy bullets from a long match grade 1in7-8" barrel could do it though. 1000 yds is just flat-out out-of-range for .223 most of the time. Possible but not no prob.

That said:
A watermelon is oblong so lets say about 12"x24" or roughly 1x2MOA at 1000yds. That is easy stuff for guys with gear and know how, but to your buddy who shoots a mosin 91/30 out back at 100-200 yds, it will be a rather new experience.
The thing to understand is that a rifle system's (rifle, projectile, scope and shooter) accuracy is generally measured in "Minutes of Arc(or Angle)" (MOA) at a given range. 1 MOA works out to a hair over 1" at 100 yds, 2" at 200yds, etc. projectile consistency also matters at longer ranges which is where "match grade" ammo and hand loads come into play. These ensure that the adjustments you made for the last bullet will apply to the next one as well.

What this all means is that with a 1MOA rifle system, in theory, if you put the rifle into a rack to hold it perfectly steady, pulled the trigger with a mechanical device to do so perfectly, then fired it into a 1000 yd tunnel with uniform atmospheric pressure and zero wind, the bullet would impact somewhere in a ~10.5" circle around the intended point of aim.

Keep in mind that many "1 MOA" rifles only stay 1 MOA out to a few hundred yards. A rifle that shoots 1 MOA at 1000 yds is a great rifle indeed. Given 10 shots and ideal conditions though, the whole affair becomes much easier. If you have a decent scope to walk them in and a steady platform from which to shoot, your friend could probably do it. First shot hit in real world conditions is a whole 'nother story though.


oh also, if anyone has any suggestions on a decent rifle platform for long-range marksmanship -- that doesn't cost a fortune -- then I'd really appreciate that info as well! thanks!
Savage 10fp and Remington 700s are great entry rifles into this kind of shooting. Pay the extra couple hundred bucks for one with a McMillin or HS-Precision stock or you will later wish you had (I do anyways). You will be wanting .308 to start out with. Check out Millet TRS-1 and TRS-2 scopes as well as the SWFA super sniper scopes. You'll be wanting a scope that uses Mil-dots in any case. Don't skimp on the rings and bases (1-piece solid billet Picatinny rail and quality rings - look at tactical/target stuff as hunter oriented stuff doesn't need to be as precise and generally therefore is not) and get them mounted properly by a good gunsmith or have someone teach you how to do it right yourself (requires tools you probably don't own). Also, if you're going to buy a bi-pod, buy at least a Harris or Versa-pod. You don't really need anything more, but anything less will just piss you off and fall apart under recoil.

You can do the whole thing very satisfactorily for about $1000 (rifle, scope, mounts), but if you spend $1200-1300 at the beginning, you'll avoid buying a new stock for $300-500 later down the line.

Hope that all helps,
-Pete

aplinker
03-17-2008, 4:43 PM
I'm gonna have to go with a "luck only" on a .223.

Even if the shooter is awesome, the drop is just too much on that size of a target with a standard AR.

The bullet, even in perfect conditions, is probably dropping about 1"/meter. That kind of light bullet, in any wind, at that distance, at that low of a velocity... Just makes way too many factors to make it straight doable. Again, it's the hole-in-one analogy.

Now, with .308, that's a doable shot by anyone with a decent set-up. If you can spot misses and hold off...

Sniper3142
03-17-2008, 5:42 PM
With the right rifle, bullet, additional equipment, training, practice, and shooter, a 1000 yard shot isn't just doable; it's a piece of cake.

And you don't need something as massive as a 50BMG either. A good .308Win will get there (24" + barrel bolt gun pushing either a 175gr SMK or 155gr Scenar). A 300WM loaded with anything from a 190gr SMK to the 210gr loads will get there with plenty of energy to spare.

If you know your rifle and load (drift, drop, etc.) and take into account the enviornmental factors (wind, pressure, humidity, etc) then shooting to 1000 yards is lots of fun!

blisster
03-17-2008, 5:50 PM
At what distance does the coriolis effect come into play?

CSACANNONEER
03-17-2008, 6:40 PM
50 BMG


thats all you need to know ;)

Funny, I believe that NBRA and FCSA records will show that smaller groups are routinely shot with BR guns much smaller than 50BMG. Now, can it be done with a 50? Yes, some shooters can do it. My 13 year old stepson was able to shoot a 10.75", 5 shot group, at 1000 yards, during his first FCSA match this last summer. But, he takes it very seriously and has a good instructor.:43: Can the average hobby shooter do it? Probably not. I don't care what kind of equipment they are using. If they can't read the conditions and adapt for them, then the only way it will happen is if they have 10 fliers in a row all happen to fall in the same area.

CSACANNONEER
03-17-2008, 6:46 PM
At what distance does the coriolis effect come into play?

Further than a round will stay supersonic. There are many other more important variables to consider. Like how to tell if each primer has the "exact" (I know there is no such thing) same amount of primer compound or how to measure the suface area of each powder charge. These two thing are hard if not impossible to measure yet, they will effect your POI more than the coriolis effect ever will.

rksimple
03-17-2008, 7:03 PM
At what distance does the coriolis effect come into play?

In rifle rounds, don't worry about it. As was said, there are plenty of other variables to worry about.

Unless you're firing artillery, I wouldn't worry.

Fjold
03-17-2008, 8:01 PM
JMHO.
One in 100 shooters could hit a watermelon at 1000 yards with one of the ten shots. Probably less than one in 100 shooters have ever shot their rifles to 1,000 yards and probably 1 out of ten of those have actually worked up the ballistics for their load and shot it to test.

Tom Sarver shot this 5 shot group in Ohio last year with a 30 caliber wildcat that he built.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v214/Fjold/sarvertargetrecord.gif

saki302
03-17-2008, 8:21 PM
The advantage of .50BMG and ,408 is they are less affected by wind compared to lighter calibers (ESPECIALLY the .408).

When the gusty wind picked up at the last desert shoot I was at, none fo the 50s were hitting the mile target, but the .408 did it after a few tries.

.308's with regular bullets are supposed to go subsonic before 1000 yards, but they guys with .308s were hitting the 1000 yard target just fine with 68gr. loads. Most .223 will go subsonic and miss before 1000 yards.

-Dave

aplinker
03-17-2008, 9:24 PM
The advantage of .50BMG and ,408 is they are less affected by wind compared to lighter calibers (ESPECIALLY the .408).

When the gusty wind picked up at the last desert shoot I was at, none fo the 50s were hitting the mile target, but the .408 did it after a few tries.

.308's with regular bullets are supposed to go subsonic before 1000 yards, but they guys with .308s were hitting the 1000 yard target just fine with 68gr. loads. Most .223 will go subsonic and miss before 100 yards.

-Dave

Not sure if you wrote that number wrong there. I'm pretty sure all 223 is supersonic past 100yds. :D

The reason long distance is easier with something like 408 and 416 is speed. That helps not just with wind effects, but also with the bullet drop. It gets there faster so it has less arc from gravity. This means if you're off in your ranging, doping, velocity, etc. etc... you'll be closer to the target than something that's "lobbed" in there. So many things are messing with the trajectory at 1000yds because of how long it takes to get there.

The coriolis effect has a mass term, so within the confines of normal ranges, it's not an issue - like wind effects at 100yds on 308.

ar15barrels
03-17-2008, 10:57 PM
The iron maiden I use at my matches is about that size . . . ask anyone how hard/easy it is to hit at 865 yards.

I hit it on my first try.
I don't know if I ever will do that again though.

ar15barrels
03-17-2008, 10:59 PM
Well I've suuggested before that if you don't know your dope on that stage to shoot a spoiler. :D

Gamer.

ocabj
03-17-2008, 11:23 PM
http://www.geocities.com/azrifle/michel3.jpg

Michelle Gallagher's 200-16x. 1000 yards slow fire prone with metallic sights. Record still holds according to the NRA National Records database.

For those unfamiliar with the official NRA targets, the 1000 yard LR target has a 10" X-ring.

RobertJ
03-17-2008, 11:55 PM
I know I am coming into the topic late but oh well...lol.

As far as hitting an object at 1000 yds alot of factors do come into play. Windspeed, curvature of the earth, moisture in the air, altitude, air temperature, bullet weight and so on. I qualified as an Army Sniper and I hade to go through all sorts of crap and schooling and we were taught all sorts of this stuff.

It is very possible to hit a target at 1000 yds with iron sights if your vision is good enough and with a scope it is just more simplified.

A very, very good platform to start a build for a Long Range target rifle is the Remington Model 700 bolt action. That is what we use in the Army if we arent using the Barrett M82-A1. Just my two cents.

T Guns
03-18-2008, 3:13 AM
oh bruss01 you pretty much nailed the point of the debate right here:
I think the OP was intending that the shooter achieve the feat without the assistance of a 3rd party... i.e., after you pop off your 10 shots we get in the car, zoom downrange and see if the watemellon was "clearly hit" at least once. It seems like it would be contrary to what he is trying to prove, not "is this within the range of human capability" but rather "can a dude without any help or any special training or tons of practice, just good basic marksmanship skills, with normal equipment commonly available at any corner gun store, achieve this?" - it seems THAT is the core of his discussion with his sureshot friend. Adding a 3rd person at the 200 yard mark from the target with binoculars and a radio telling the shooter "too low, make the next one 2" higher" seems like it defeats the purpose of the bet. I think the bet focuses on his friend, with his friend's current skill set and experience, making this shot with just common equipment that you could buy at Big 5 or Walmart. Sounds like the consensus is a definite maybe. I'm assuming a bench rest for this shot, even though it hasn't been specifically mentioned (has it?).

so, a definite maybe must be the resounding answer indeed!

haha, realistically, yeah I get that there's not a definite right or wrong here. too many variables. I just think my buddy is being completely naive to the fact that hitting a 1000-yard shot is a lot harder than he thinks. plus I don't think he can do it with zero experience shooting at that range. even with some familiarity with the rifle (i.e. zeroing/testing it at shorter ranges) and benchresting. no spotter though, it has to be his own adjustments/etc.

sb_pete, thanks for the rifle recommendations. $1000-1200 sounds like right around what it would be at.

I guess at this point there's not much else I can do, until we actually get to test this out (whenever that may be). really, thanks guys for all the info, even though there's no definite answer I think I got everything I was wondering about answered and then some.

oh, also I now know a watermelon in Luling, TX that definitely does not qualify in our bet! that's hilarious, thanks for the heads-up on that one TKM!

saki302
03-18-2008, 2:08 PM
Not sure if you wrote that number wrong there. I'm pretty sure all 223 is supersonic past 100yds. :D


Corrected- thanks :D

Late night brain fart- or finger slip!

-Dave

Ahhnother8
03-18-2008, 8:46 PM
Kinda late, but here goes...

.223 - no problem
.308 - no problem
most anything - no problem

It's all about having good equipment and ballistics. And with the stipulated calm conditions, then it's not a big deal at all. Even with iron sights, if the watermelon was in the middle of something that could be seen to center the shot (ie. suspended in the middle of a 1000 yard target), then no problem. With optics, just sit it against a good backstop. A first round hit would almost be expected, in calm conditions. And even with windy conditions, I would fully expect to hit it at least a couple of times in 10 shots.

Lane
2007 U.S. Palma Team - shooter
2008 California State Fullbore Champion
2008 California State Palma Champion
2007 200-14x :) at 1000 yards with .308, iron sights, sling, prone position, Sloughhouse
2007 199-13x :( at 1000 yards with .308, iron sights, sling, prone position, Sloughhouse, the next day