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fbuccino
03-13-2014, 9:10 AM
Can anyone tell me the specific law that forbids machine shops from renting time and tooling? I hear a lot of talk that the ATF says this or that, but no specific law.

fbuccino
03-13-2014, 10:46 AM
DRH, the link is dead, what did you search on?

valley82
03-13-2014, 10:51 AM
Your link does not go to an affidavit either it has been taken down or it is gone???

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fbuccino
03-16-2014, 8:29 AM
Ok, so the whole issue is about ownership of the equipment. So if a shop was to "Sell" their CNC to you for a $100 with the understanding it would be donated back to them after completing 1 lower. Would that solve the problem?

kcstott
03-16-2014, 10:04 AM
Ok, so the whole issue is about ownership of the equipment. So if a shop was to "Sell" their CNC to you for a $100 with the understanding it would be donated back to them after completing 1 lower. Would that solve the problem?

As of right now the BATFE has not and probably will not put into writing what their interpretation of what is legal as far as ownership[ of the machines and tooling involved.
Many ideas abound I will not post them here but be advised the situation is very touchy. It would be like going to a speak easy for the first time no one will serve you until someone else can vouch for you.

At this point and time my tools are for my builds. I'll still do barrel work but a ten foot pole is required to handle a receiver and that is only used to push it back out into the street.

BlackCatRacing#13
03-16-2014, 6:03 PM
Can anyone tell me the specific law that forbids machine shops from renting time and tooling? I hear a lot of talk that the ATF says this or that, but no specific law.


Of Course Your a Newbie around this area
but
Why haven't You Thought of Building this at Your Own HOME

F.Y.I.
the A.T.F. says "Renting any Machine Shop is Illegal"
but
its all about Building these in Your Own HOME is what the Concept is all about





P.S.
You will NOT find any Legit Shop in CALIFORNIA that will Attempt to Help You .... >>>(GOOD LUCK)<<<


























:79:

wchutt
03-17-2014, 4:56 PM
Some still are milling. Legit? Seems to have a lot of happy customers.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=739785

-hanko
03-18-2014, 9:44 AM
Ok, so the whole issue is about ownership of the equipment. So if a shop was to "Sell" their CNC to you for a $100 with the understanding it would be donated back to them after completing 1 lower. Would that solve the problem?
Probably not.

Anology...

You sell me a Ferrari and give me a bill of sale for $100.

I take it to DMV and attempt to register it. DMV notes the purchase price is stupidly low. I don't get it registered.

BATFE is not stupid...you won't get a CNC for a hundred bucks...you're still effectively paying a non-licensed firearms manufacturer to complete a weapon for you.

Issues, federal:

Ding...the cnc guy is an unlicensed manufacturer.

Ding...no background check.

Ding...you're violating the law by avoiding an ffl.

Issues, California:

Ding...no ffl for purchase.

Ding...no state registration.

Even if you found a cnc guy dumb enough to try this scenario, as happened in SAC, you can also put yourself at legal risk.

j-shot
03-18-2014, 11:01 AM
Here is an ATF affidavit posted in the other thread. It lists the federal codes that the shops are going to be charged with for completing 80% lowers.
Renting out machines and time to complete firearms as a source of income at the business location would result in similar charges for the same codes.
Note that the very expensive machines involved will be seized, any machine shop contemplating doing this at this point in time needs a physiological examination.

http://www.justice.gov/usao/cae/news...%20Package.pdf

PDF with fixed link

http://www.justice.gov/usao/cae/news/docs/2014/2014_02/02-27-2014Cortez%20SW%20Package.pdf

:cheers2:

bksa
03-18-2014, 11:35 AM
all they need to prove is intent

Ok, so the whole issue is about ownership of the equipment. So if a shop was to "Sell" their CNC to you for a $100 with the understanding it would be donated back to them after completing 1 lower. Would that solve the problem?

kcstott
03-18-2014, 2:50 PM
Well the dirt bags in Sac deserve every bit of what the ATF gives them and subsequently what Bubba gives them as well.
Holly crap these guys were bold face law breakers.

wchutt
03-18-2014, 8:56 PM
Somebody is looking for a cease and dessist letter it looks like... :eek:

So they were!

CSACANNONEER
03-18-2014, 9:01 PM
So they were!

LOL

edgerly779
03-18-2014, 9:02 PM
I bought a mill and a lathe to do my own projects. I maintain my shop equipment using them and build items, repair my own firearms, etc.

leok20
03-18-2014, 9:52 PM
Some still are milling. Legit? Seems to have a lot of happy customers.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=739785


No at the end of that thread they say they are not taking any more customers.


"I said good day!"

Jason95357
03-18-2014, 10:34 PM
No at the end of that thread they say they are not taking any more customers.


"I said good day!"

Being able to do it all in your own home, as often and as many as you want is the best.

http://www.80percentarms.com/

j-shot
03-19-2014, 7:44 AM
Unfortunately those type of people could ruin it for the rest of the people that want to build them for personal use, legally. In the end it will make it a lot more difficult for EVERYONE.

Now SB 808 is just hideous...and I wonder how they would enforce the 2016 deadline to register and serialize ALL firearms manufactured for personal use with no serial numbers. There is surely millions of them and I don't see that happening, so in the end they will most likely need to "grandfather" them in. Eventually "we the people" need to get our 2A rights back which we have been infringed on. ;)

Good for you, I have my own equipment and don't plan to have anyone help me, nor do I plan to help others...other than online.

To me the law is pretty clear, and I don't see anything wrong with doing it yourself as it was intended. Anyone will appreciate it that much more. People can still help others learn how to perform specific tasks, just can't do it for them.

Or more interesting, what would they do if they all had the same serial number...?

On "registration day" agent takes note of your rifle. Type, AR-15. Serial number, 2-FU-CA. Thanks, next.

Type, AR-15. Serial number, 2-FU-CA. Thanks, next.

Type, AR-15. Serial number, 2-FU-CA. hmmmm :laugh:

krwada
03-19-2014, 7:47 AM
Here is an ATF affidavit posted in the other thread. It lists the federal codes that the shops are going to be charged with for completing 80% lowers.
Renting out machines and time to complete firearms as a source of income at the business location would result in similar charges for the same codes.
Note that the very expensive machines involved will be seized, any machine shop contemplating doing this at this point in time needs a physiological examination.

http://www.justice.gov/usao/cae/news...%20Package.pdf

physiological examination??? You mean like a prostate exam?

OK ... I think you meant psychological examination ... like talking to a social worker or shrink right?

ummm... maybe talking to a social worker is not OK. I heard that almost all social workers are left-wing liberals.

fbuccino
03-19-2014, 3:08 PM
Ok, so I love a good argument. From reading the Cortez case, these guys were obviously making guns to sell illegally. Also guys were making and machining their own 80% blanks in the same building.
What I didn't see was were a machine shop can't rent their CNC mill. They are not manufacturing lowers. The renter of the mill is doing the work and if it is strictly for his own use, what's the problem? Everyone keeps referring to this case, but what these guys are doing is totally different than renting a CNC machine.
Is there a specific law that states a machine shop can't rent it's equipment to a person so they can finish a lower?

Ashick
03-19-2014, 3:25 PM
This seems like a bigger problem in CA. Maybe because I frequent these forums much more. Have the BATFE raided similar shops in let's say AZ?

kcstott
03-19-2014, 3:36 PM
Ok, so I love a good argument. From reading the Cortez case, these guys were obviously making guns to sell illegally. Also guys were making and machining their own 80% blanks in the same building.
What I didn't see was were a machine shop can't rent their CNC mill. They are not manufacturing lowers. The renter of the mill is doing the work and if it is strictly for his own use, what's the problem? Everyone keeps referring to this case, but what these guys are doing is totally different than renting a CNC machine.
Is there a specific law that states a machine shop can't rent it's equipment to a person so they can finish a lower?


Actually you read over it. one of the charges is "in the business of manufacturing". that is receiving compensation for the use of the tools. Renting leasing, borrowing or other wise using someone else's tooling is verboten

That is what the fuss is about.

leok20
03-19-2014, 3:38 PM
Yeah the Cortez brothers should be hung. $25000 SBR deals. These guys were illegally undocumented gun making idiots. When they were milling it up for the customer. Slapping the kits all together for them they should be carted off. They were breaking the law before guns even got involved. These guys might be cartel types who knows.


"I said good day!"

Eagle Eyes
03-19-2014, 4:35 PM
Now you know why the BATF&E has been coming down hard on machine shops and others making "80%" stuff.

These are the types of morons that ruin it for the rest of us that do follow the law. I will bet the BATF&E already has cases lined up in LA and SD for the same stupid stuff.

fbuccino
03-19-2014, 8:33 PM
kcstott, thanks. That's what I was wondering about.

On another note, the BATF raided ARES today in San Diego and took customer names DESPITE a court order not to.
It seems strange when only the people have to follow the laws and the government doesn't.