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Doc Hawk
01-10-2014, 7:23 PM
Anyone else get this email today? Complete text of email included below. Note the entire design all the way down to the screwdriver tool is a 100% copy of the Raddlock.

I know there has been a long discussion about Arms Unlimited selling counterfeits with fake Raddlock trademarks (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=798879), but this is a new low... I guess the Raddlock isn't patented or trademarked? If it were a licensing agreement, I can't see how they'd allow selling it at a price point that undercuts the original product.

Anyone have the skinny?

Included email:

ArmsUnlimited.com <sales@armsunlimited.com>

Newly Designed Reversible Bullet Button

https://cdn3.volusion.com/knqkd.pxjkx/v/vspfiles/photos/KZ-CARBB-2.jpg?1389011106

Introducing the CARBB AR15/AR10 California Reversible Bullet Button. A significantly improved solution for California AR owners that is PROUDLY MADE IN AMERICA, and at nearly half the price of the competition!

With the reversible bullet button you can keep your rifle fully compliant where required by law but are also able to nearly effortlessly convert it back (when legal) to its intended design with the turn of a key!

Whats New?
Aggressive Slip-Resistant Texture for Positive Engagement
Stainless Steel springs are utilized to prevent internal rusting
Brass Set Screw for a Solid Lock when needed
Engineered to true Mil-Spec, properly threaded and fits flush to receiver
Rigorously tested on a Colt M4 Commando, will never come loose, even under sustained automatic fire!

100% MADE AND ASSEMBLED IN THE USA

Competion's Price: $36
OUR Price: $19.95
INTRO Price: $14.95

Contact Us for dealer inquiries (100+ pc orders)

ArmsUnlimited.com
2541 W. 237th St
Torrance, California 90505
866-229-1355

MUKAK
01-10-2014, 7:29 PM
Competion's Price: $36

infringed711
01-10-2014, 7:29 PM
That's a pretty good price...

Arkangel
01-10-2014, 7:32 PM
Wow...

Sent from my GT-N5110 using Tapatalk

drifts1
01-10-2014, 7:36 PM
I'll take it?

Doc Hawk
01-10-2014, 7:36 PM
That's a pretty good price...

They could give them away free and I would feel shame to my core showing up on a range with one attached to my rifle. I suppose one can say, "That's capitalism," but for me I would feel like I would be directly contributing to the death of firearms innovation in our state.

SURVIVOR619
01-10-2014, 7:39 PM
Why their emphasis about "made in America"? Meaning, are they inferring Raddlocks aren't?

Love my Raddlocks BTW!!

infringed711
01-10-2014, 7:58 PM
Why their emphasis about "made in America"? Meaning, are they inferring Raddlocks aren't?

Love my Raddlocks BTW!!

My understanding was that raddlocks were made in China

Danodog
01-10-2014, 8:02 PM
They could give them away free and I would feel shame to my core showing up on a range with one attached to my rifle. I suppose one can say, "That's capitalism," but for me I would feel like I would be directly contributing to the death of firearms innovation in our state.

I agree> Paid $34 each for four of the real Raddlocks.

SloChicken
01-10-2014, 8:25 PM
Pretty bad, they use the name "Bullet Button" in their ad.
Not sure it is trademarked, but I believe it is.

Well, not my fight. It would seem Raddlock or Bullet Button would be all over them for either Patent or Copyright infringement if there is a case there.

You want to know the cure?

Featureless ...

Or better yet, get the fewls out of office and change the legislation.

Or, we could revolt ...

Just thinkin' out loud ...

CK_32
01-10-2014, 8:31 PM
Yea that's no raddlock. At least from the one pictured.

valley82
01-10-2014, 8:44 PM
Capitalism is not taking someone else's product (raddlock) then making a cheap knockoff of it and announcing it as new after being caught selling them (because they don't fit like the real deal) as the real product. That is called a dbag hack owner with no original ideas or morals. Hopefully raddlock sues the SH!? Out of them. Where do I donate to the raddlock legal fund?

gun toting monkeyboy
01-10-2014, 8:48 PM
They need to be sued.

Elwood_Blues
01-10-2014, 8:57 PM
Included email:

ArmsUnlimited.com <sales@armsunlimited.com>

Newly Designed Reversible Bullet Button


Whats New?

• Engineered to true Mil-Spec, properly threaded and fits flush to receiver



I didn't know military uses bullet buttons :rolleyes:

I own two real Raddlocks, and while they are well made and look cool, I think they're waste of money. Unless, you're gonna break the dumb laws we have, and turn the screw 4 turns while you're at the desert and nobody is around to narc on you, to enjoy restricted freedom, what's the point?

If you leave CA, it takes what, two minutes to take out the bullet button, Raddlock, whatever and replace it with mag release?


As far as copy cat, yes it is fcuked up, and I don't condone it either.

MrPlink
01-10-2014, 9:48 PM
Scummy scummy scummy

Tasty
01-10-2014, 10:20 PM
Has anyone ever called or emailed them asking about the blatant ripoff that they're selling?

LBDamned
01-10-2014, 10:44 PM
Unless, you're gonna break the dumb laws we have, and turn the screw 4 turns while you're at the desert and nobody is around to narc on you, to enjoy restricted freedom, what's the point?

If you leave CA, it takes what, two minutes to take out the bullet button, Raddlock, whatever and replace it with mag release?


realistically, the only time I think it's worthwhile - is in the unlikely event of SHTF (riots, post major earthquake, etc)... slamming together parts kits and turning a small screw - seconds may count?... as quick as it is to swap mag release buttons, it is definitely quicker to convert the Raddlock... I always have a small screwdriver handy - I'd have to dig a bit for a mag release button.

Back to topic... I'm pretty sure the product in OP is made by KZ (Kley-Zion).

riderr
01-10-2014, 11:01 PM
I always have a small screwdriver handy - I'd have to dig a bit for a mag release button. A tip of a knife will do that too.

The idea behind the Radlock in my view, is to be able to switch between BB and normal release fast, without carrying extra accessories with you.

LBDamned
01-10-2014, 11:14 PM
A tip of a knife will do that too.

The idea behind the Radlock in my view, is to be able to switch between BB and normal release fast, without carrying extra accessories with you.

I agree... however, my EDC knife tip wouldn't fit (actually, one might - but the other definitely wouldn't)... but I have small tool bag near my rifles (no, it's not me! - in before the jokes)... also, it would be real easy to put a key or small screwdriver in grip cavity.

riderr
01-10-2014, 11:24 PM
I agree... however, my EDC knife tip wouldn't fit (actually, one might - but the other definitely wouldn't)... but I have small tool bag near my rifles (no, it's not me! - in before the jokes)... also, it would be real easy to put a key or small screwdriver in grip cavity.

split wooden chip, Leatherman tool, small key, thin rock, etc. Everything works.
Of course it's always possible to keep a normal mag release button in your pocket and install it after you cross the border. However, if you misplace the BB, on your way back from AZ to CA, you may have a few chilling moments, turning out your pockets and searching your bag inside out, cursing at CA lawmakers and trying to remember, where the hell you had put it.

Elwood_Blues
01-11-2014, 7:47 AM
realistically, the only time I think it's worthwhile - is in the unlikely event of SHTF (riots, post major earthquake, etc)... slamming together parts kits and turning a small screw - seconds may count?... as quick as it is to swap mag release buttons, it is definitely quicker to convert the Raddlock... I always have a small screwdriver handy - I'd have to dig a bit for a mag release button.

Back to topic... I'm pretty sure the product in OP is made by KZ (Kley-Zion).

True.

Note to self; keep a small screwdriver or Raddlock tool with the rebuild kits :D

xxINKxx
01-11-2014, 10:31 AM
I kinda gave up on raddlocks. Around $40 a pop and I've had several end up being junk.

2 that I had, I never loosened because the guns were never taken out of state, or equipped with a 22 kit. After lots of shooting the screw in the middle was seized tight and I couldn't loosten it to remove it when the day came that I wanted to take it off. The screw you loosten to remove it was machined way too thin, so the tool they provide you didn't fit deep enough to even help twist it off, it just chipped it away when you tried to loosten it as it had not enough material to grab. That was a nightmare to remove on both.

Another 3rd raddlock I had purchased seemed like that screw that you tighten it down was too short and sat too deep inside. After installing it and tightening it down, the screw that gets pressed in to drop the mags sat too deep in the body that a 223 bullet didn't even touch anything to drop it. So it was kinda worthless.

All of them were purchased at riflegear so they weren't knock offs. I ended up just switching to the standard $20 bullet button and keep the standard mag release buttons in the grip if ever needed.

Ya it's sucky that it's basically a 100% knock off. But in reality and the real world if you don't want your product copied then you should've gotten it patented. $14 is pretty good price. I always thought the real ones were a bit overpriced.

I see they also offer a knock off copy of the cat m-4 BCG scrapper tool as well.

Mossy Man
01-11-2014, 10:34 AM
i just have a bunch of these laying around

http://www.riflegear.com/p-1210-finger-tip-mag-release-tool.aspx

and several right hand gloves with a small hole cut out of the middle finger

missiontrails
01-11-2014, 10:41 AM
The way I ensure that i'm getting an original is to buy Vamfire MLD's for my rifles:) Same concept as Radlock, but larger hole for easier mag drops.

tal3nt
01-11-2014, 10:49 AM
Raddlocks are overrated. I own 2 and prefer my prince 50s

bomb_on_bus
01-11-2014, 2:04 PM
Lol at 36 bucks!

This is Murica where you can sell something for an inflated price then get undercut by some douche bag competitor selling the same 2 dollar pile of parts

valley82
01-11-2014, 2:10 PM
Yep and some dbag customers will buy from AU to save a dollar, not realizing that the guy that thought the product up has more money involved in R&D than the thief.

LBDamned
01-11-2014, 2:40 PM
Yep and some dbag customers will buy from AU to save a dollar, not realizing that the guy that thought the product up has more money involved in R&D than the thief.

I've only ever bought authentic Raddlocks... however...

With all due respect - the R&D has been paid for ten fold by now... the parts and manufacturing can't be much... there is a huge profit margin no doubt.

For this reason - imho, the response from Raddlock should be to undercut the counterfeits and acquire 100% market-share (not only on principal, but for economic business sense).

On the other hand - if inflated pricing is covering the cost of patent attorneys or something, then fine... but we don't need to be concerned about rip off companies then...

Can't have it both ways (no matter what product it is).

THT
01-11-2014, 3:13 PM
I've only ever bought authentic Raddlocks... however...

With all due respect - the R&D has been paid for ten fold by now... the parts and manufacturing can't be much... there is a huge profit margin no doubt.

For this reason - imho, the response from Raddlock should be to undercut the counterfeits and acquire 100% market-share (not only on principal, but for economic business sense).

On the other hand - if inflated pricing is covering the cost of patent attorneys or something, then fine... but we don't need to be concerned about rip off companies then...

Can't have it both ways (no matter what product it is).

Intellectual property has unending costs associated with it. While the initial R&D may have been paid off, doesn't the inventor deserve to be rewarded? In a capitalist economy, that means they should get paid.

LBDamned
01-11-2014, 3:15 PM
Intellectual property has unending costs associated with it. While the initial R&D may have been paid off, doesn't the inventor deserve to be rewarded? In a capitalist economy, that means they should get paid.

my suggestion wouldn't stop revenue flow...

valley82
01-11-2014, 3:20 PM
AU is nothing more than a thief, he was already outed here on calguns. The main reason people were able to tell the difference was fit and finish, ie. Quality. There is a reason they are being called cheap knockoffs, maybe because they are of lesser quality and held to a lesser tolerance, therefore cheaper to build, ya think?
Same reason a Noveske is double or more the price of a PSA rifle, or is Noveske making all that extra price tag in mark up?

valley82
01-11-2014, 3:23 PM
my suggestion wouldn't stop revenue flow...

Sell at below the cheap knock off? It would not stop revenue it would stop the profits. Sounds like a solid way to BK a business. Remind me not to invest with you...

NapalmCheese
01-11-2014, 3:28 PM
I don't see why so many people have their panties in a bunch. If you're an investor or backer of the Raddlock then sure, get pissed. Otherwise, who cares? Let the lawyers duke it out. Until an IP case is settled enjoy your ability to buy a functionally equivalent part (of unknown quality) for less money.

I don't care anyway, featureless FTW!

valley82
01-11-2014, 3:56 PM
As a business owner it torques me out when Dbags ripoff other companies. Even worse when the cheapskates among us buy from a known dbag to save a few bucks.

LBDamned
01-11-2014, 4:01 PM
Sell at below the cheap knock off? It would not stop revenue it would stop the profits. Sounds like a solid way to BK a business. Remind me not to invest with you...

short-sighted biased view on my intention... no problem...

The Internet is full of opinions... but one thing is for certain - neither of ours are worth bickering about.

BTW, just so you (are anyone else) doesn't get it twisted... here's a reminder of my initial mention in the thread - focus on first sentence: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=13182221&postcount=28

infringed711
01-11-2014, 4:20 PM
What do you expect when you overcharge without a patent?

Wasn'tMe
01-11-2014, 4:37 PM
Sell at below the cheap knock off? It would not stop revenue it would stop the profits. Sounds like a solid way to BK a business. Remind me not to invest with you...

First of all, I'll just state that AU will never get a dime from me.

However, the Raddlock is apparently manufactured in Taiwan or China, so it should have a lower manufacturing cost than the knockoff (assuming the knockoff really is manufactured in the US).

I have no idea if it's patented, so there may be additional costs to protect the patent. Maybe.

valley82
01-11-2014, 4:53 PM
If a $15.00 difference is a big deal you should buy the knockoffs from the thief. You should also buy air soft components for your rifle too, magpul is probably making a profit too, shame on them, the wealth should be distributed equally. LOL

Wasn'tMe
01-11-2014, 5:12 PM
If a $15.00 difference is a big deal you should buy the knockoffs from the thief. You should also buy air soft components for your rifle too, magpul is probably making a profit too, shame on them, the wealth should be distributed equally. LOL

Funny, I don't see anything in my post saying that I think the Raddlock is too expensive :rolleyes:

My point is that the manufacturing costs of the original should actually be LOWER than that of the knockoff. Thus, LBDamned's suggestion of selling the original at a lower cost than the knockoff won't necessarily cause the company to go bankrupt, depending on any other costs that may or may not be involved.

I understand your anger at AU, and I share it. But you shouldn't be so blinded by this that you misrepresent what other people state, just to have additional targets to lash out against.

valley82
01-11-2014, 5:48 PM
Actually I was referring to post 36...

inbox485
01-11-2014, 6:50 PM
If you think AU's fraud with Raddlock is bad, you should read the court filings from Rainier. AU actually had a second generation counterfeit just to make the fakes harder to spot. Frankly makes me laugh when people say they got genuine product from them. How would they know?

TNP'R
01-11-2014, 6:53 PM
They need to be sued.

No California needs to be sued.

inbox485
01-11-2014, 6:54 PM
What do you expect when you overcharge without a patent?

I disagree that it is overcharged, but that is an opinion. Dealing with a known fraud however isn't opinion, it is a matter of integrity. I have one of the AU counterfeits, and it is a good way to end up in jail. They are pathetically out of spec, and you have to have an o-ring to keep the release from working when it is bottomed out. That o-ring fails and guess what, you are a felon. Maybe they fixed that on this version, but knowing the family involved, I really doubt it would be worth keeping if it were free.

ETA: If a reputable vendor were to sell something similar, I'd shrug it off since Radd didn't patent it, and currently doesn't even hold the trademark on Raddlock. But I'd want to first know if it actually worked right.

LBDamned
01-11-2014, 6:55 PM
If you think AU's fraud with Raddlock is bad, you should read the court filings from Rainier. AU actually had a second generation counterfeit just to make the fakes harder to spot. Frankly makes me laugh when people say they got genuine product from them. How would they know?

is Arms Unlimited the same as KZ (Kley-Zion)?...

I'm pretty sure the convertable mag lock in the OP is made by Kley-Zion (regardless of who's selling it)

infringed711
01-11-2014, 6:57 PM
I disagree that it is overcharged, but that is an opinion. Dealing with a known fraud however isn't opinion, it is a matter of integrity. I have one of the AU counterfeits, and it is a good way to end up in jail. They are pathetically out of spec, and you have to have an o-ring to keep the release from working when it is bottomed out. That o-ring fails and guess what, you are a felon. Maybe they fixed that on this version, but knowing the family involved, I really doubt it would be worth keeping if it were free.

I won't be buying from them because I prefer either featureless or a standard bullet button but $40 for a Chinese made BB is ridiculous

LBDamned
01-11-2014, 6:59 PM
I won't be buying from them because I prefer either featureless or a standard bullet button but $40 for a Chinese made BB is ridiculous

this is the crux of the debate...

Raddlock could undercut the comp (or even come in five bux over) and almost certainly win over the entire consumer base...

But - it's not my company.

AKSOG
01-11-2014, 7:04 PM
No patent? Then no sympathy from me. I would rather buy a US made product for less money though if I had to choose. Why spend a ton of money for something I dont even want on my rifle.

inbox485
01-11-2014, 7:06 PM
is Arms Unlimited the same as KZ (Kley-Zion)?...

I'm pretty sure the convertable mag lock in the OP is made by Kley-Zion (regardless of who's selling it)

Same family along with Botach as well. Same family that sold corroded surplus ammo under a military contract. There's no such thing as too low for them.

infringed711
01-11-2014, 7:06 PM
No patent? Then no sympathy from me. I would rather buy a US made product for less money though if I had to choose. Why spend a ton of money for something I dont even want on my rifle.

^this too, Id personally rather support an American company over a foreign one

inbox485
01-11-2014, 7:11 PM
No patent? Then no sympathy from me. I would rather buy a US made product for less money though if I had to choose. Why spend a ton of money for something I dont even want on my rifle.

I would agree with you if it were almost any other company. I have nothing against Radd (in my experience with him, he is an honorable stand up guy and I'm happy to be a repeat customer), and I have nothing against China, and my feelings on clones could be summed up here:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=13098207&postcount=309
I love raddlocks and will happily pay the premium on them over bullet buttons, but if I were doing my own version there are things I'd do different so I'm not begrudging the vendor for anything like that. The "US Company" here is a bunch of frauds.

UN3178
01-11-2014, 7:16 PM
Included email:

Whats New?
Aggressive Slip-Resistant Texture for Positive Engagement
Stainless Steel springs are utilized to prevent internal rusting
Brass Set Screw for a Solid Lock when needed
Engineered to true Mil-Spec, properly threaded and fits flush to receiver
Rigorously tested on a Colt M4 Commando, will never come loose, even under sustained automatic fire!



What's true Mil-Spec? It's not like the military uses BB's.

AKSOG
01-11-2014, 7:18 PM
I would agree with you if it were almost any other company. I have nothing against Radd (in my experience with him, he is an honorable stand up guy and I'm happy to be a repeat customer), and I have nothing against China, and my feelings on clones could be summed up here:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=13098207&postcount=309
I love raddlocks and will happily pay the premium on them over bullet buttons, but if I were doing my own version there are things I'd do different so I'm not begrudging the vendor for anything like that. The "US Company" here is a bunch of frauds.

I have nothing against him either. If there is patent infringment occuring here then I can agree with the linked post.

infringed711
01-11-2014, 7:18 PM
Mil spec bb still makes me chuckle

inbox485
01-11-2014, 7:31 PM
I have nothing against him either. If there is patent infringment occuring here then I can agree with the linked post.

No patent so no patent infringement. My point was that clones are what they are. They range from cheap knockoffs to actual improvements. In this case the vendor is a fraud so it doesn't really matter.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

LBDamned
01-11-2014, 7:47 PM
Same family along with Botach as well. Same family that sold corroded surplus ammo under a military contract. There's no such thing as too low for them.

so Arms Unlimited is Botach? (or closely linked)... is this stated fact somewhere?...

I'm not trying to debate it - but I'm a fact kinda guy... and this fact (in addition to other recent events) may very well have a significant impact on my opinion of them.

LBDamned
01-11-2014, 7:51 PM
What's true Mil-Spec? It's not like the military uses BB's.

at the risk of seeming to debate/defend (which I am not)... the Military doesn't use most of what are on a half dozen of my rifles (that are called "mil-spec")... by countless manufacturers...

I think the qualifying term is "spec"... doesn't mean "use"...

inbox485
01-11-2014, 7:56 PM
so Arms Unlimited is Botach? (or closely linked)... is this stated fact somewhere?...

I'm not trying to debate it - but I'm a fact kinda guy... and this fact (in addition to other recent events) may very well have a significant impact on my opinion of them.

Close family connections. Uncle/nephew IIRC. I don't have all the links handy but if you google Kley-Zion, Botach and Arms Unlimited, the family ties will come up.

ETA: Here are a few:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/27/world/asia/27ammo.html
http://majikthise.typepad.com/majikthise_/2008/03/botach-tactic-1.html
http://oregonintellectualproperty.com/2013/11/27/oregon-trademark-litigation-update-axts-v-arms-unlimited/

LBDamned
01-11-2014, 7:59 PM
Close family connections. Uncle/nephew IIRC. I don't have all the links handy but if you google Kley-Zion, Botach and Arms Unlimited, the family ties will come up.

I know KZ and Botach are tied... and from this thread realize AU and KZ are tied...

they are shooting themselves in the foot in many more ways than one (far worse than previous drama)...

I won't say more.

inbox485
01-11-2014, 8:13 PM
at the risk of seeming to debate/defend (which I am not)... the Military doesn't use most of what are on a half dozen of my rifles (that are called "mil-spec")... by countless manufacturers...

I think the qualifying term is "spec"... doesn't mean "use"...

Spec refers to specification. There are things in use that have no specification (not common), and things with specifications that are not in use. There is no specification for any sort of bullet button, but if a bullet button type device conformed to mil-spec receivers such that nothing within specification would not be compatible with the bullet button, calling it mil-spec isn't inappropriate IMO. Mil-spec could also refer to conforming to what would be mil-spec in terms of material, tolerances and finishing (which is very common in AR 308 products).

umd
01-11-2014, 8:16 PM
Clearly it's a "mil-spec bullet" button :lol:

LBDamned
01-11-2014, 8:33 PM
Spec refers to specification. There are things in use that have no specification (not common), and things with specifications that are not in use. There is no specification for any sort of bullet button, but if a bullet button type device conformed to mil-spec receivers such that nothing within specification would not be compatible with the bullet button, calling it mil-spec isn't inappropriate IMO. Mil-spec could also refer to conforming to what would be mil-spec in terms of material, tolerances and finishing (which is very common in AR 308 products).

clearly you state the obvious...

mil spec is as simple as the mag release button is standard spec... doesn't have anything to do with the fact that it's able to be locked.

I guarantee there are boatloads of parts on all our rifles that are "mil-spec" that have noting to do with the Military using them (which is what my posts regarded - lets not get out of context here - I know it's a forum trend).

this isn't rocket science... there's no reason to get petty over something so trivial.

totus44
01-11-2014, 8:34 PM
Patent or not, the only thing more dishonorable than counterfeiting another company's product, are the consumers that knowingly buy the copies to save a couple of bucks.

LBDamned
01-11-2014, 8:41 PM
Patent or not, the only thing more dishonorable than counterfeiting another company's product, are the consumers that knowingly buy the copies to save a couple of bucks.

you just outed 97% of Americans...

China has built it's empire copying everything someone else invented... we all own made in China products... it is what it is.

But I digress... the thread isn't as much about copy/patent infringement as it is poor business practice (as much as most of you don't agree)... there is a much bigger picture (on both sides).

MrPlink
01-11-2014, 8:49 PM
China? Are you kidding me? Just look around your own backyard!

Anybody here own an AR that isnt a Colt or Armalite?

inbox485
01-11-2014, 9:01 PM
clearly you state the obvious...

mil spec is as simple as the mag release button is standard spec... doesn't have anything to do with the fact that it's able to be locked.

I guarantee there are boatloads of parts on all our rifles that are "mil-spec" that have noting to do with the Military using them (which is what my posts regarded - lets not get out of context here - I know it's a forum trend).

this isn't rocket science... there's no reason to get petty over something so trivial.

I wasn't picking on you. If I read your last post correctly, I was more agreeing that disagreeing.

LBDamned
01-11-2014, 9:23 PM
I wasn't picking on you. If I read your last post correctly, I was more agreeing that disagreeing.

my apologies for not realizing we were saying the same thing...

AKSOG
01-11-2014, 9:24 PM
Patent or not, the only thing more dishonorable than counterfeiting another company's product, are the consumers that knowingly buy the copies to save a couple of bucks.

So basically you don't believe in a free market

inbox485
01-11-2014, 11:04 PM
Patent or not, the only thing more dishonorable than counterfeiting another company's product, are the consumers that knowingly buy the copies to save a couple of bucks.

I disagree only to the extent that I think you are mixing counterfeits and clones. Patents exist for those that want to use that system. Choosing not to means you choose to rely on superior product delivery rather than design protection. That makes clones 100% fair game, and the clones get benchmarked against the original. This version isn't marked and sold as a Raddlock so it would be a clone not a counterfeit, and since it isn't patent infringing, the product concept is fine IMO. I just wouldn't touch that manufacture or vendor with a 10 foot pole. To me, knowingly doing business with somebody defrauding the industry is where the question of honor enters in.

16 Bus Shelter
01-12-2014, 1:37 AM
I just searched to see if the raddlock is patented, and I found out that it is currently pending. I think once they are granted the patent, AU & co will be annihilated. Btw, Botach is pretty close to me and they are god awful to deal with, I do not recommend them at all...

Ref - http://www.wysk.com/index/california/la-habra/8bgq3qv/raddlock-llc/trademarks

inbox485
01-12-2014, 1:45 AM
I just searched to see if the raddlock is patented, and I found out that it is currently pending. I think once they are granted the patent, AU & co will be annihilated. Btw, Botach is pretty close to me and they are god awful to deal with, I do not recommend them at all...

Ref - http://www.wysk.com/index/california/la-habra/8bgq3qv/raddlock-llc/trademarks

That is the trademark, and it is listed as abandoned as of December. I never found a patent listing for them.

http://trademarks.justia.com/856/65/raddlock-85665260.html

16 Bus Shelter
01-12-2014, 3:17 AM
That is the trademark, and it is listed as abandoned as of December. I never found a patent listing for them.

http://trademarks.justia.com/856/65/raddlock-85665260.html

That looks different, the link I posted shows the filing date in August. The link you posted has different dates. I think that was for the trademark "raddlock" as opposed to the actual part.

missiontrails
01-12-2014, 9:07 AM
Patent or not, the only thing more dishonorable than counterfeiting another company's product, are the consumers that knowingly buy the copies to save a couple of bucks.

Wake up.... CZ clones, 1911's, AR's........ weren't those "other company's" products?

valley82
01-12-2014, 9:23 AM
Wake up.... CZ clones, 1911's, AR's........ weren't those "other company's" products?

I wouldn't care, except AU sold fakes as REAL raddlocks to many people until being outed, then tada comes out with his own...I am awake...AU is scum.

missiontrails
01-12-2014, 9:25 AM
I wouldn't care, except AU sold fakes as REAL raddlocks to many people until being outed, then tada comes out with his own...I am awake...AU is scum.

On that note, you're right about the scum part.

totus44
01-12-2014, 2:01 PM
I said counterfeiting was dishonorable. Clones are a different animal. Clones are not exact copies, and often the manufacturer tries to impart some marginal improvement. Counterfeit are trying to pass off your product as someone else's.

As for free market comment...please. If anyone wants to use cheaper inferior technology and products to save a couple bucks here or there, knock yourself out.

Neo Sharkey
01-14-2014, 10:17 AM
That brings up a good question...how would you protect something like that? Can you patent a tool with a specific purpose like that? (I have and idea for a gadget, but don't want to send it out to be manufactured and then find out that some one making knock-offs in China)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Arnelcheeze
01-14-2014, 12:17 PM
What do you expect when you overcharge without a patent?
there you go right there.

Chewbaca
01-14-2014, 12:40 PM
i just run the 7$ ones i find on Amazon problem solved !!!

valley82
01-14-2014, 12:59 PM
That brings up a good question...how would you protect something like that? Can you patent a tool with a specific purpose like that? (I have and idea for a gadget, but don't want to send it out to be manufactured and then find out that some one making knock-offs in China)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Time and money and a lot of both...which is the reason I have not moved forward with several of the ideas I have come up with over the past 20+ years and proven the design concept and energy/efficiency savings for the AC and Refrigeration industry. And this does not prevent someone in another country such as china from copying it and flooding the market overseas with it even with patents in place. Plus as seen above there are plenty of Americans that will stand behind the company (AU) even after that company has sold counterfeit knockoffs as the real deal because "if they didn't patent it F em" it will save them a few dollars.

inbox485
01-14-2014, 1:09 PM
i just run the 7$ ones i find on Amazon problem solved !!!

Link?

riderr
01-14-2014, 1:24 PM
Link?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/223-5-56-California-Compliant-Legal-Magazine-Button-Lock-Mag-Release-CA-Bullet-/141161052002?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20dddab762

Chewbaca
01-14-2014, 1:36 PM
Link?

AR15 M4 Magazine Lock Button California Legal Compliant
http://amzn.com/B007RS0I1E

inbox485
01-14-2014, 1:53 PM
Ah. Those are standard bullet buttons. Not quite what is being discussed.