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Stag-hunter
02-19-2008, 6:26 AM
A few things I'm looking for in this rifle:
1/4" MOA accuracy
between 8 & 9-1/2 lbs
Caliber; 308 Win.
McMillan or H&S style stocks. ( I hate the triangle Italian style look)
The price doesn't have to include scope or bi-pod.

If you know a gun smith that could make this rifle custom for the same money then please give me the info.

I was looking at the Kimber 8400 advanced tactical but I have no experience with Kimber.
The sako TRG22 is not an option. The TRG is ugly as hell (IMHO)

Thanks in advance for the help,

Rich

rksimple
02-19-2008, 6:52 AM
A few things I'm looking for in this rifle:
1/4" MOA accuracy
between 8 & 9-1/2 lbs
Caliber; 308 Win.
McMillan or H&S style stocks. ( I hate the triangle Italian style look)
The price doesn't have to include scope or bi-pod.

If you know a gun smith that could make this rifle custom for the same money then please give me the info.

I was looking at the Kimber 8400 advanced tactical but I have no experience with Kimber.
The sako TRG22 is not an option. The TRG is ugly as hell (IMHO)

Thanks in advance for the help,

Rich

Randy at R+D Precision in Glendora could do it in your price range. It'll take a few months though.

Your weight requirement is a little crazy, especially with glass. You'd have to cut the barrel way down (and lose a bunch of velocity), flute it, and get a lighter countour. You'd also probably have to go with a lighter filled McMillan to make weight. Add any decent base, rings and tac scope, and bipod, and you'll never make that weight.

Are you more concerned with looks than performance? You mentioned you "hate the triangle italian style look" and "the trg is ugly as hell."

What do you want the rifle to do? To what distance do you plan to shoot? Any competitions? What kind? Hunting? Is it to fulfill your Silent Scope fantasies? How much experience do you have in long range or precision shooting? Are YOU capable of 1/4 MOA? Is this your first precision rifle? We need more info on what you want the rifle to do in order to give good advice.

ohsmily
02-19-2008, 7:06 AM
The sako TRG22 is not an option. The TRG is ugly as hell (IMHO)

Rich

Haha. No accounting for taste I suppose.

Prc329
02-19-2008, 7:19 AM
Listen to rk. He knows what he is talking about. Randy can definitely meet your price range and accuracy needs. You may want to give up the fantasy on the weight. I mean no disrespect by that comment but it will be very difficult to meet your weight requirements. A good scope to take advantage of an R&D rifle will be a good 2 pounds or more.

I love rk's comment about are you capable of 1/4 MOA. Just cause the gun can doesn't mean you can. My gun is cable of about 1/3 but I can do 1/2 fairly consistantly.

Rocko
02-19-2008, 7:35 AM
Rich, where are you located at?

Nefarious
02-19-2008, 7:37 AM
from the R+D Websites main page :(

Precision Gunsmithing
Thanks for all of your inquiry.

Due to the large work load I won’t be taking any other work, complete builds, or true jobs until further notice. I had originally anticipated taking new work after January 2008 but that didn't occur due to on going medical issues and special projects.

I have several complete builds to finish and I have a special signature rifle in the works that I will offer for sale later this year featuring a custom camo pattern stock from McMillan, custom action, and some cool stuff from Seekins Precision.

I will continue to accept bolt knob modification work during this time.

Thanks,
Randy
R&D Precision

Prc329
02-19-2008, 7:46 AM
GAP can also do you up a nice rifle but may run a little more then Randy would have.

http://www.gaprecision.net/

Another option is to do what I did and but a rifle/stock you like and start gathering the parts. It may take a month or 2 to get your barrel and once everything is together you can have it built. You won't really save money that way but you will have something to shoot until Randy is available. I started with a remmy SPS Varmint in 308 and an AICS 700 stock. I added a Timmney trigger and badger bolt knob. I then bought a Rock Creek AMU contoured barrel, recoil lug and Badger FTE break. It was patiently waiting to get put together. It is in the shop now getting done.

wildcard
02-19-2008, 9:06 AM
GA Precison only guarantees .5 MOA accuracy and I believe R+D is the same. They MAY be capable of .25 MOA but they won't guarantee it. The only builder I know of that will guarantee .25 MOA is Tactical Operations. It may be just out of your price range though.

RK is right.. 8-9.5 lbs rifle would be hard to achieve even minus optics. You'd need a 20" light countoured and fluted barrel w/ a McMillain sniper filled stock. Even then, you may need to stick to a 2 piece base and lighter rings to shave off some weight. The barrel alone will probably be 5 lbs.

Prc329
02-19-2008, 9:13 AM
The 700 LTR 7.5 pounds so adding a decent set of rings and scope will put you at probably around 10.5 pounds. The LTR TWS which is a complete package including bipod and scope is about 10.5 pounds.

Timberwolf
02-19-2008, 9:54 AM
I'm with RK in that we need more info. A finished LR rifle in your wt limit is going to be hard to do even with a light stock like McM's EDGE - further a .25 MOA rifle is going to be hard to find in your price range and wt limit - and like RK asked can you hold .25 MOA.

There are several builders that can build a rifle in your price range, R & D certainly being one of them. Randy has built or rebuilt all my LR rifles and I'll swear by his work, but he won't give you the .25MOA guarantee you want though from my expereince his rifles are quite capable.

Tell us a little more about what you're looking for, what its for, and your experience and we'll see if we can direct you in the right direction.

Stag-hunter
02-19-2008, 10:02 AM
RK: This will be my 4th precision rifle (currently in the safe; Lazzeroni global hunter in 308, Jim Borden 270 wsm, H&S precision SPL 270 wsm) however none of which I currently own are "Tactical" types of rifles.
I have plenty of hunting rifles, this one is just for targets.

My Lazzeroni and Borden both shoot 1/4" MOA. (they were guaranteed 1/2"MOA) The H&S shoots 1/2 all day long. I get to the range often and reload my own ammunition, you might say that shooting is a hobby. I've never had the opportunity to shoot in tournaments and I don't belong to any clubs.
Yes I can shoot 1/4" MOA, but not consistently.

The weight requirement of the rifle was not including rings, bases, scope or bipod. My objective was keeping the completed project below 13lbs.

Shooting is usually at 100 yards, I have property in NV that I set targets up to 500 yards a few times a year.
I've have a new Leupy Mark 4: 3.5x10x40 ready to mount.

The rifle is strictly for hobby use, that's why the price is only $2500. For another $2k I could buy a Tango-51.

Thanks for all the replies.

Rich

aplinker
02-19-2008, 10:09 AM
If you're shooting at ranges of 100-500yds and all you want are tiny groups I'd say go with something like a 6mm benchrest.

If you're range shooting, why the weight requirement? Weight makes it easier to control = tighter groups.

Timberwolf
02-19-2008, 10:11 AM
Ok here's an idea for a basic build - Rem 700 action (blue printed), Badger lug, Rock 5R barrel, .30, 22" finished, heavy flutes, McM HTG to A5 (whichever style floats your boat) - no sniper fill. Get the parts and reserve a space with Randy. There are options such a Baadge DBM system but that will add wt.

That should run you around your 2500 mark built.

Stag-hunter
02-19-2008, 10:19 AM
Has anyone seen the FNH PSR rifles?

The weight limit I figured is because whenever I shoot at my property in NV I usually have to carry the rifle a very long ways.

Rich

rksimple
02-19-2008, 10:32 AM
The spr rifles are pretty good, especially if you don't plan to upgrade anything on it. Mags can be a pain with those. They don't make 10 rounders and the standard mags can be hard to get.

For the distance you intend to shoot, a copy of an LTR with a stiller action and a 5.5 contour, fluted rock, bartlein, krieger, etc. barrel would work well. Get a light fill HTG stock and you're good to go. You don't need the velocity that a 22in+ barrel provides if you're only going to shoot to 600 yards or so.

.25 MOA guns exist mainly on the interwebs. When it comes down to it, even though the gun can shoot a .25 MOA group occasionally, it won't do it for 20 rounds. Or 10 consecutive groups of 5. If these rifles were as popular as everyone believes, the benchrest crowd might be angry to think they spent thousands on rifles and hours on ammo that may only do the same. Look at what the normal 100 yard BR scores are for aggs. If you can do it with a hunting rifle, I'm sure they'd like to see it. Especially over the course of a season. Thats not meant as a slam or anything, just a dose of reality.

Hoop
02-19-2008, 10:39 AM
If I were to spend that much on a 308 for target use I'd build an OLL.

By your own admission you have a ton of bolt-actions, build something different for a change ;)

Stag-hunter
02-19-2008, 10:59 AM
First, thank you for all the replies to my post.

RK; No offense taken, you really seem to know your guns.

Hoop; I just bought a Stag AR15. I'm still waiting my 10 days to pick it up :mad:
I bought the Stag (16" barrel) for plinking close range. This will be my very first black rifle. My Aimpoint with GG&G cantilever base came in the mail on Friday.
I can't wait to get it mounted.


Rich

Stag-hunter
02-19-2008, 11:01 AM
The FN newest rifle is called the PSR. They still sell the SPR.

I haven't been able to find any info other than the FNH website.


Rich

Prc329
02-19-2008, 11:18 AM
http://www.fnhusa.com/le/products/firearms/family.asp?fid=FNF006&gid=FNG005

That is the SPR line up. Stay away from the PBR.

Stag-hunter
02-19-2008, 11:18 AM
Rich, where are you located at?

Martinez

Stag-hunter
02-19-2008, 11:19 AM
http://www.fnhusa.com/le/products/firearms/family.asp?fid=FNF006&gid=FNG005

That is the SPR line up. Stay away from the PBR.

I was asking about these... http://www.fnhusa.com/le/products/firearms/family.asp?fid=FNF048&gid=FNG021

I just was wonder what the difference between the PSR and SPR were.

The PBR's are junk.

rksimple
02-19-2008, 11:21 AM
The FN newest rifle is called the PSR. They still sell the SPR.

I haven't been able to find any info other than the FNH website.


Rich

Good info. I haven't really kept up on them. The SPR gets good reviews, but the PBR has mixed. The PSR looks like a nice rifle, but I'm sure its plagued with the same mag issues as the others. If you have 2500 to spend on a precision rifle, its best to make it right the first time. For me, "right" means DBM, reliable 10 round mags, lots of aftermarket parts available, and easy to find a smith to work on it. I think the SPR's warranty is void if the barrel is removed by a smith. There was a big stink about it over on snipershide a year or so ago. I can't remember the specifics.

Prc329
02-19-2008, 11:26 AM
I was asking about these... http://www.fnhusa.com/le/products/firearms/family.asp?fid=FNF048&gid=FNG021

I just was wonder what the difference between the PSR and SPR were.

The PBR's are junk.

My bad, I thought you said you couldn't locate info on the SPR :D

hawk81
02-19-2008, 12:04 PM
CZ 750.

mike452
02-19-2008, 12:45 PM
Looks like the only big difference is the PSR is bedded.

PDF of the two:
SPR (http://www.fnhusa1.com/PDF/FNH08SPR.pdf)
PSR (http://www.fnhusa1.com/PDF/FNH08PSR.pdf)

FallingDown
02-19-2008, 1:09 PM
Oh, I thought the post said $8,500 so I was checking to see if anyone listed the Surgical.

Cypriss32
02-19-2008, 6:20 PM
GA Precison only guarantees .5 MOA accuracy and I believe R+D is the same. They MAY be capable of .25 MOA but they won't guarantee it. The only builder I know of that will guarantee .25 MOA is Tactical Operations. It may be just out of your price range though.

Im tired of this ****....... Been covered way too much on snipershide.com

blindluck
02-19-2008, 6:48 PM
FN's offerings only guarantee 1MOA. Their barrels are chrome lined if you care. The only tactical rifle manufacturer guaranteeing 1/4 MOA that I'm aware of is Tactical Operations located in Beverly Hills. Almost all of the other rifle builders offer as good as 1/2MOA.
http://www.tacticaloperations.com/

here's a review of their rifles:
http://www.snipercentral.com/bravo51.htm
http://www.snipercentral.com/bravo51.htm

They cost a lot more than your price limit of $2500, however.

The least expensive way is to get yourself a Remington 700P and get the upgrade package for $1500+ which may meet your price limit and 1/4MOA:
http://www.snipercentral.com/tacops700p.htm

wildcard
02-19-2008, 6:53 PM
Im tired of this ****....... Been covered way too much on snipershide.com

Ahh.. the self-proclaimed master long range shooter himself speaks. Please educate us and tell us the opinions of others (snipershide) that you hold to be hard truth.

Sniper3142
02-19-2008, 8:44 PM
The fact is a 1/2 or 1/4 MOA guarantee means very little when you get into that class of equipment.

Just because a rifle is CAPABLE of a certain level of accuracy, with a certain load, under certain conditions, doesn't mean a shooter will be.

We see lots of these safe queen / 100 yard shooters saying they want a 1/2 or 1/4 MOA rifle when they just aren't capable of that kind of accuracy themselves.

Having the right equipment will not make anyone a good shot.

MT1
02-19-2008, 8:48 PM
http://www.norcalprecision.com/

I have shot a couple of his rifles - great quality and very accurate.

tombinghamthegreat
02-19-2008, 8:52 PM
Mosin Nagant M91/30 w/tatical upgrade that is if you were going super cheap.

Timberwolf
02-19-2008, 9:03 PM
Im tired of this ****....... Been covered way too much on snipershide.com

junior with all your long range prowess please enlighten us with your take on this issue so we can we the lowley can be blessed by your immense experience enhanced knowledge. :rolleyes:

Timberwolf
02-19-2008, 9:03 PM
Mosin Nagant M91/30 w/tatical upgrade that is if you were going super cheap.

Oh Lord

FallingDown
02-19-2008, 9:19 PM
The fact is a 1/2 or 1/4 MOA guarantee means very little when you get into that class of equipment.

Just because a rifle is CAPABLE of a certain level of accuracy, with a certain load, under certain conditions, doesn't mean a shooter will be.

We see lots of these safe queen / 100 yard shooters saying they want a 1/2 or 1/4 MOA rifle when they just aren't capable of that kind of accuracy themselves.

Having the right equipment will not make anyone a good shot.


I believe that 100% but that being said, I was instructed by some SOTIC grads on the Army's latest platform, when I was at Yakima in 2001 and I was hitting the wheels on a BMP at 800m, which was well beyond my skill level prior to that training iteration. Honestly, I doubt if I could repeat that now, if I was given a WARNO and given the same equipment to go after Ts today.

Awesome experience, made me regret not going 11B back when I enlisted for the GI Bill way back when.

ohsmily
02-19-2008, 9:23 PM
Oh, I thought the post said $8,500 so I was checking to see if anyone listed the Surgical.

No, no one mentioned "Surgical" because there is no such thing. Surgeon actions do exist though and are quite good.

wildcard
02-19-2008, 9:23 PM
The fact is a 1/2 or 1/4 MOA guarantee means very little when you get into that class of equipment.

Just because a rifle is CAPABLE of a certain level of accuracy, with a certain load, under certain conditions, doesn't mean a shooter will be.

We see lots of these safe queen / 100 yard shooters saying they want a 1/2 or 1/4 MOA rifle when they just aren't capable of that kind of accuracy themselves.

Having the right equipment will not make anyone a good shot.

See post #11 of this thread. It may be better practice to ask a person what their skill level is rather than assume they can't shoot. If they want .25 MOA... point them in the right direction.

As for how much the difference between .25 MOA and .5 MOA matters, that really depends on your discipline. If you're a Benchrester or even F-Class, it could make all the difference.

m24armorer
02-19-2008, 9:41 PM
Well, my sticks will do .25 MOA........

From a Frankford Arsenal 450 pound machine rest clamped to a concrete bench.

If you are that solid, .25 won't be a problem.

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb271/m24armorer/Image001-2.jpg

blindluck
02-19-2008, 11:29 PM
Sure, the more accurate gun won't make the shooter more skillful, BUT he will likely get more accurate groups with the more accurate weapon.

Maybe the owner will be happy getting 3/4 MOA groups with a 1/4 MOA gun. It's doubtful he'd be able to shoot as well with a less accurate gun.

It's exactly the same concept that a faster car won't make the driver more skillful but it will likely produce faster lap times.

There is an odd jealousy towards people who haven't earned their so-called stripes to own extremely accurate rifles... or fast cars.

Some people just like to own cool stuff regardless if they will ever master it. They either make more money than most or are willing to sacrifice more of what they have for it. Get over it.:rolleyes:

Stag-hunter
02-20-2008, 5:00 AM
Im tired of this ****....... Been covered way too much on snipershide.com

Sorry but I don't hang out at snipershide. If I knew the answer and didn't need some direction, I would have never posted the thread.


Anyway....... I decided to buy an H&S HTR. H&S had three 308 in stock. Since I already had a pending DROS I was able to piggy back both the Stag and H&S together.

I will let you know how it shoots. Again, thank you for all the replies.


Rich

Cypriss32
02-20-2008, 6:13 AM
Rock 1-10tw 24" Badger brake
Ai 1.5
Some kind of rings and bases
Badger slope mount dopler thingy
Nikon Tact 4-16x

Lets all follow suit.

aplinker
02-20-2008, 12:33 PM
Rock 1-10tw 24" Badger brake
Ai 1.5
Some kind of rings and bases
Badger slope mount dopler thingy
Nikon Tact 4-16x

Lets all follow suit.

:rofl2:

Timberwolf
02-20-2008, 12:57 PM
Rock 1-10tw 24" Badger brake
Ai 1.5
Some kind of rings and bases
Badger slope mount dopler thingy
Nikon Tact 4-16x

Lets all follow suit.

You don't need a rifle like mine to shoot well junior, you just need learn to actually shoot the ones you have instead of talking about it.

redcliff
02-20-2008, 1:07 PM
With Federal 168gr match ammo, Leupold Mark IV scope and rings and bipod my stock Remington 700 .308 Police Sniper Special shoots 3 shot groups prone at 100 yards that I can cover with a dime. More than enough accuracy for anything I do with it. I think the scope cost me more than the rifle if I recall correctly :)

Bummer is that it takes away my motivation to upgrade to any of the cool guns in this thread :)

aplinker
02-20-2008, 2:45 PM
There's no reason you need to.

Learn to shoot different range targets quickly and accurately with that rifle and you're well on your way.

I would say the only change I would make is loading your own ammo. I'm sick of buying match ammo and have been loading .308 a little while now. MUCH cheaper and I like the round better.

With Federal 168gr match ammo, Leupold Mark IV scope and rings and bipod my stock Remington 700 .308 Police Sniper Special shoots 3 shot groups prone at 100 yards that I can cover with a dime. More than enough accuracy for anything I do with it. I think the scope cost me more than the rifle if I recall correctly :)

Bummer is that it takes away my motivation to upgrade to any of the cool guns in this thread :)

Cypriss32
02-20-2008, 3:55 PM
I wanted to be just like you........ Can I work at APS too?

m24armorer
02-20-2008, 5:39 PM
I like the dopler thingy....
And Im no fan of the AICS stocks, not that they are bad they just are uncomfortable to me.

And a Rock 1-10? I seem to like the 1-11.27.

But thats just me.

wildcard
02-20-2008, 5:56 PM
I like the dopler thingy....
And Im no fan of the AICS stocks, not that they are bad they just are uncomfortable to me.

And a Rock 1-10? I seem to like the 1-11.27.

But thats just me.

That is a VERY specific twist.. down to the hundreths? I couldn't imagine it performing too much different than the more popular 1-11.25 twist.

I thought the AICS looked rather "non-traditional" but I ended up really liking it after getting some trigger time in. In fact, I ordered one today!

Knoll, Grass E.
08-12-2010, 8:26 PM
Your at-range accuracy (500m +) will probably not depend on the accuracy of your rifle at all, barrel and action, that is.

What you really need to look for is something that fits your hand and shoulder well, has a trigger you can adjust down to a hair's breath and, has enough recoil compensation. You can disregard the recoil though for a .308 if you are experienced with more powerful cartridges.

I think some good options for you would be:
CZ 750 sniper or any other cz sniper ($2400)
TC warlord (expensive)
Savage 10 or 110 BA ($2200)

These rifles are all great for fixed positions when prone, though the Savage 10 would be the most effective while mobile and standing/crouching.

Hope that helps.

Knoll, Grass E.
08-12-2010, 8:32 PM
Oh, and if I may ask, why the weight restriction?

RobG
08-12-2010, 8:32 PM
Your at-range accuracy (500m +) will probably not depend on the accuracy of your rifle at all, barrel and action, that is.

What you really need to look for is something that fits your hand and shoulder well, has a trigger you can adjust down to a hair's breath and, has enough recoil compensation. You can disregard the recoil though for a .308 if you are experienced with more powerful cartridges.

I think some good options for you would be:
CZ 750 sniper or any other cz sniper ($2400)
TC warlord (expensive)
Savage 10 or 110 BA ($2200)

These rifles are all great for fixed positions when prone, though the Savage 10 would be the most effective while mobile and standing/crouching.

Hope that helps.
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u155/RobG5538/necropost.jpg
You may not have realized but this post is 2 1/2 years old??

Knoll, Grass E.
08-12-2010, 8:49 PM
So was my reply.... My internet is soooooooooooooooooooooooo ssssssssllllllllllooooooo.......

Dhena81
08-13-2010, 12:35 PM
Your at-range accuracy (500m +) will probably not depend on the accuracy of your rifle at all, barrel and action, that is.

What you really need to look for is something that fits your hand and shoulder well, has a trigger you can adjust down to a hair's breath and, has enough recoil compensation. You can disregard the recoil though for a .308 if you are experienced with more powerful cartridges.

I think some good options for you would be:
CZ 750 sniper or any other cz sniper ($2400)
TC warlord (expensive)
Savage 10 or 110 BA ($2200)

These rifles are all great for fixed positions when prone, though the Savage 10 would be the most effective while mobile and standing/crouching.

Hope that helps.

I wonder if the OP had got the rifle he wanted since this thread is from 2/19/08