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View Full Version : Official citation for "detachable magazine" needed


FelixEstrella
02-19-2008, 6:11 AM
We all think we understand the definition of detachable magazine and hence why the "Prince 50" or "Bullet Lock" makes an AR legal.

However, I'm looking for an OFFICIAL citation (pointer to document) where the DOJ acknowledges that a setup where a tool (bullet is a tool?) is required to drop a magazine is not a "detachable magazine".

Not trying to be an *** ... really!

Thanks!

thefinger
02-19-2008, 6:22 AM
I'm sure someone will chime in with a link to the California Code of Regulations, but here is the quote in the meantime....


“‘[D]etachable magazine’ means any ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily from the firearm with neither disassembly of the firearm action nor use of a tool being required. A bullet or ammunition cartridge is considered a tool.

Ammunition feeding device includes any belted or linked ammunition, but does not include clips, en bloc clips, or stripper clips that load cartridges into the magazine.”


(stolen from AW Memo)

FelixEstrella
02-19-2008, 6:26 AM
thefinger:

What "AW memo"? Can you post a copy or a pointer to the memo?

thefinger
02-19-2008, 6:30 AM
here is the "cop memo" I stole it from. I think the memo itself is a bit outdated, however it has the important quotes from the DOJ and CA law that are important to OLL builders.

http://www.calguns.net/copmemo2.pdf

FelixEstrella
02-19-2008, 6:38 AM
Do you have a copy of the relevant portions of CCR 978.200(a) or a pointer to it?

My problem with the memo pointed to is that

(a) it's drafted by a private citizen and hence has no bearing in a court, and
(b) the CA penal code normally includes definitions of terms used. Detachable magazine isn't defined in any penal code. Unless an official definition exists, the memo appears to be presenting a definition of a term, where none existed before.

thefinger
02-19-2008, 6:50 AM
I would help more right now except that i'm studying for an exam I have in a few hours. What I can tell you is that once rush hour hits you are gonna have lots of good responses with the info you are looking for. What you are looking for exists, and iit has been well documented on calguns.net, but I'm just not able to find it all for you right now. Try using the search button and checking out the links on the calguns.net homepage.:cool:

cj cake
02-19-2008, 6:52 AM
from DOJ BOF website:

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/sb23.pdf

ohsmily
02-19-2008, 6:55 AM
Do you have a copy of the relevant portions of CCR 978.200(a) or a pointer to it?

My problem with the memo pointed to is that

(a) it's drafted by a private citizen and hence has no bearing in a court, and
(b) the CA penal code normally includes definitions of terms used. Detachable magazine isn't defined in any penal code. Unless an official definition exists, the memo appears to be presenting a definition of a term, where none existed before.



Here you go Columbo. You could have used the search function, but we will spoon feed it to you.

CALIFORNIA CODE OF REGULATIONS
TITLE 11. LAW
DIVISION 1. ATTORNEY GENERAL
CHAPTER 12.8. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE REGULATIONS FOR ASSAULT WEAPONS AND
LARGE CAPACITY MAGAZINES
ARTICLE 2. DEFINITIONS OF TERMS USED TO IDENTIFY ASSAULT WEAPONS

The following definitions apply to terms used in the identification of assault weapons pursuant to Penal Code section 12276.1:

(a) “detachable magazine” means any ammunition feeding device that can be
removed readily from the firearm with neither disassembly of the firearm action
nor use of a tool being required. A bullet or ammunition cartridge is
considered a tool. Ammunition feeding device includes any belted or linked
ammunition, but does not include clips, en bloc clips, or stripper clips that load
cartridges into the magazine.

CaptMike
02-19-2008, 8:30 AM
Here you go. Westlaw has the contract with the state to print and place online the official California Code of Regulations. If you want to find it "officially". Here it is:

California Code of Regulations Official Website(note web address)
http://ccr.oal.ca.gov/linkedslice/default.asp?SP=CCR-1000&Action=Welcome

left hand side click on: "List of CCR titles"

Click on: TITLE 11. Law

Then

Click the plus on: DIVISION 5. FIREARMS REGULATIONS

Then

Click the plus on: CHAPTER 39. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE REGULATIONS FOR ASSAULT WEAPONS AND LARGE CAPACITY MAGAZINES

Then

Click the plus on: ARTICLE 2. DEFINITIONS OF TERMS USED TO IDENTIFY ASSAULT WEAPONS

Then

click on: s 5469. Definitions.


That will give you the "official" California State online citation of the California Code of regulations. Print out as many copies as you need. Or if you want an official copy of a preprinted manual, you can go to your local library and they are required to keep a current copy of the CCR. Go to the correct citation and copy at your leisure. I am sure if you contact west they will sell you a printed copy of the CCR, although that might be expensive.

Hope this makes it easy for you.

Stay Safe and enjoy your Off List Firearms

FelixEstrella
02-19-2008, 8:42 AM
Muchos gracias Senores cj cake, ohsmily and LtMike70.

pottymouth310
02-19-2008, 9:13 AM
good to have, helpful during a drinking debate...:)

Jicko
02-19-2008, 9:15 AM
Do you have a copy of the relevant portions of CCR 978.200(a) or a pointer to it?

My problem with the memo pointed to is that

(a) it's drafted by a private citizen and hence has no bearing in a court, and
(b) the CA penal code normally includes definitions of terms used. Detachable magazine isn't defined in any penal code. Unless an official definition exists, the memo appears to be presenting a definition of a term, where none existed before.

Those are your pointers!

CCR 978.20 (a)

CA PC 12276.1

aplinker
02-19-2008, 10:20 AM
Not everyone here just reads others statements that things are legal. There's a very specific legal logic. I find your insinuation, "We all think we understand," insulting.

YOU think you understand, but YOU haven't read the relevant PC and definitions, that's why YOU are asking. Don't imply we haven't and don't.

We all think we understand the definition of detachable magazine and hence why the "Prince 50" or "Bullet Lock" makes an AR legal.

GenLee
02-19-2008, 10:24 AM
Here you go Columbo. You could have used the search function, but we will spoon feed it to you.

CALIFORNIA CODE OF REGULATIONS
TITLE 11. LAW
DIVISION 1. ATTORNEY GENERAL
CHAPTER 12.8. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE REGULATIONS FOR ASSAULT WEAPONS AND
LARGE CAPACITY MAGAZINES
ARTICLE 2. DEFINITIONS OF TERMS USED TO IDENTIFY ASSAULT WEAPONS

The following definitions apply to terms used in the identification of assault weapons pursuant to Penal Code section 12276.1:

(a) “detachable magazine” means any ammunition feeding device that can be
removed readily from the firearm with neither disassembly of the firearm action
nor use of a tool being required. A bullet or ammunition cartridge is
considered a tool. Ammunition feeding device includes any belted or linked
ammunition, but does not include clips, en bloc clips, or stripper clips that load
cartridges into the magazine.

Here you go Columbo? :rofl2: Ohsmily you make me laugh!!

Matt C
02-19-2008, 10:31 AM
Muchos gracias Senores cj cake, ohsmily and LtMike70.

If this is for a legal case PM me, I can give you dep/court transcripts where a DOJ agent admits that a fixed mag is not detachable if it requires a tool.

ohsmily
02-19-2008, 10:56 AM
Here you go Columbo? :rofl2: Ohsmily you make me laugh!!

Glad I can be of service :cool::D

jdberger
02-19-2008, 11:04 AM
It's right here on the front of my shirt (yellow earmuffs, stuffing my face)

http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/610505/fullsize/dsc04816.jpg

You can have your own shirt with the definition. Buy it here (http://www.zazzle.com/5469_a_shirt-235475476270462814).

That way, if you are ever stopped with your OLL, you can just point to your shirt and laugh....:)

Ballistic043
02-19-2008, 11:08 AM
that shirt is brilliant!! i am buying one right NOW!!

bwiese
02-19-2008, 11:24 AM
The Calif Code of Regulations underwent renumbering in late 2006.

The former section "978.20", which dealt with definition of detacahble mags, pistol grips and other AW terminology relevant to 12276.1PC, has been renumbered to Title 11, Sec 5469.

FelixEstrella
02-19-2008, 12:53 PM
Not everyone here just reads others statements that things are legal. There's a very specific legal logic. I find your insinuation, "We all think we understand," insulting.

YOU think you understand, but YOU haven't read the relevant PC and definitions, that's why YOU are asking. Don't imply we haven't and don't.

Please grow up!

762cavalier
02-19-2008, 4:37 PM
Please grow up!

Wow, you're off to a rip-roaring start aren't you.
:rolleyes: