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View Full Version : Where does the barrel start? Noob question.


FlyingPen
02-16-2008, 3:22 PM
Bought my first Upper, an LMT 14.5" I took the measuring tape out but I can't figure out if this is in fact 16" or not with the flash hider since I don't know where the barrel ends or starts.
Is this shorter than 16" or what?

(Big Photos)

http://www.jae-designs.com/LMT/IMG_1163.JPG

http://www.jae-designs.com/LMT/IMG_1164.JPG

sloguy
02-16-2008, 3:26 PM
you put the bolt and carrier in and measure down inside the barrel to boltface with a dowel or cleaning rod.

jamesob
02-16-2008, 3:34 PM
it is measured bolt face to the end of the barrel. now if you a 14.5 its a sbr unless your muzzle break/fh is welded on and ends up 16". to be legal a 14.5 has to have the break or fh welded on, it cant be threaded on.

FlyingPen
02-16-2008, 3:38 PM
Pretty sure this is welded.

blacklisted
02-16-2008, 3:40 PM
Pretty sure this is welded.

Maybe it's just me, but I wouldn't rely on "pretty sure" when NFA violations are at stake.

RainierArms
02-16-2008, 3:45 PM
That's a 14.5" Upper and even if it's permed attached, it would be too short. You'd need to perm attach a FH 1.5" or longer.

aplinker
02-16-2008, 3:50 PM
I think you're going to come up short with that FH. Measure as said above.

You might want to get it fixed ASAP considering you're in possession of a SBR which makes it both a NFA and CA no-no. Even owning it not installed puts you in possible constructive possession.

The special extended birdcage FHs and the SEI Vortex would both be long enough.

Lon Moer
02-16-2008, 3:54 PM
Yes, you are too short. You need to change your muzzle device to a longer unit;
-Phantom
-Phoenix
-Vortex
-Medievel,
ect. and have it permanently attached, either with a pin and weld or silver soldered.

FlyingPen
02-16-2008, 3:57 PM
Yeah, I think I'm going to have to take it back to them, I got it from J&J Armory.

How much would it cost to for the labor on installing a Noveske KX3?

Dump1567
02-16-2008, 4:41 PM
Buy a longer FH for it and send it to Randall at http://www.ar15barrels.com/ to have it permanetly attached.

A Noveske KX3 isn't really the right FH for that length barrel, but you can do whatever you want.

(The Noveske KX3 Flash Suppressor is intended for use on Short Barreled Rifles.)

But whatever you decide, Randall can take care of you.

FlyingPen
02-16-2008, 4:59 PM
Anyone know where Randall is located? I might be able to just drop it off at his place since I commute to OC often.

If they don't have a LMT 16" or 14.5" with proper length flash hider in stock, I think I might just bring it to Randall and get the flash hider as well as a low profile gas block changed out.

aplinker
02-16-2008, 6:13 PM
Anyone know where Randall is located? I might be able to just drop it off at his place since I commute to OC often.

If they don't have a LMT 16" or 14.5" with proper length flash hider in stock, I think I might just bring it to Randall and get the flash hider as well as a low profile gas block changed out.

Randall is just east of Culver City off the 405. He's in his shop most evenings.

It will take him about 1/2 hour and he likely has the FH you want in stock.

What was said above about the KX3 is right. It's diminishing returns for a barrel of that length.

If you want a FH go with the Vortex. It's pretty much the top FH out there.

You might want to check with J&J before you do so, though. Personally, I would read them the riot act if they sold me it and assured me it's over 16" when it's not. You should measure it, too. Close the bolt, drop in a dowel, mark it and measure how long it is.

FlyingPen
02-16-2008, 7:01 PM
Ok here we go. It would be REALLY GREAT if I didn't even have to go tomorrow to exchange this since I would miss an autocross I've already paid for and am excited about.

I took the suggestion of using a cleaning rod with the bolt in and to mark off the end.

It looks like I need .1" more... so heart wrenching.

Pics:

http://www.jae-designs.com/LMT/

aplinker
02-16-2008, 7:06 PM
I would've guessed .2" but that sounds about right.

I don't know why they would sell that config with a permanently installed flash hider. It's not over 16" so what's the point of making it permanent?

FlyingPen
02-16-2008, 7:11 PM
It's hard to believe .15 inches is a felony. damn.

NeoWeird
02-16-2008, 7:23 PM
Is that a pube at 1" in the second photo? :ack2:

Personally, I don't see the reason why you should have to pay for LMT's mistake. If you bought it as a 14.5" barrel pinned to 16" and it's not 16" then they should fix the problem for you. If you just bought a 14.5" barrel then the flash suppressor won't be pinned and you can take it off (hell it's an A2, so just use a pipe wrench and it will come off). Then have the flash suppressor of your choice added and pinned to meet length.

That or build a pistol....:rolleyes:

NeoWeird
02-16-2008, 7:24 PM
i'm suprized that this thread wasn't deleted by the mods.club fed isn't a nice place to be.they won't even let you have legal length barrels in their abodes

There's nothing illegal going on here. Anyone can own a barrel under 16" - they can be used for pistol builds. Yes, he is going to start falling into contructive intent if he just leaves it around but he is resolving that issue as we speak so it's a non-issue.

FlyingPen
02-16-2008, 7:26 PM
Is that a pube at 1" in the second photo? :ack2:



hahahaha nice catch! :43:

Sorry to dissapoint but I just have short hair in general, but who knows, could be!

Looks like I'll have to bring it in tomorrow.

FlyingPen
02-16-2008, 7:37 PM
I'm starting to think maybe my tape measure is wrong. the end of it doesn't seem very precise and we're talking about a .15" difference here... going to go scavenge for another ruler... if only Staples was open 24 hours.

edit:
Rite aid was open.

I used a more precise ruler instead of a tape measure and it's literally 15.99"

Is there any way to find out if the flash hider is not permanently attached without damaging the upper?

I have no idea what I'm looking at but maybe you guys can tell from the photos.

jamesob
02-16-2008, 9:12 PM
I'm starting to think maybe my tape measure is wrong. the end of it doesn't seem very precise and we're talking about a .15" difference here... going to go scavenge for another ruler... if only Staples was open 24 hours.

edit:
Rite aid was open.

I used a more precise ruler instead of a tape measure and it's literally 15.99"

Is there any way to find out if the flash hider is not permanently attached without damaging the upper?

I have no idea what I'm looking at but maybe you guys can tell from the photos.
you should be able to see if its brazed or welded sometimes you can tell by the peel washers they use sometimes. if you dont have an ar tool you might want to invest in one along with a receiver block. the you could chuck it up and try twisting it off.

metalhead357
02-16-2008, 10:07 PM
IBTL............

FlyingPen
02-16-2008, 10:34 PM
Why? We can't ask questions on legality of builds?

I actually don't even have a lower in my house yet.

aplinker
02-16-2008, 10:43 PM
If you don't own a lower you're not at the same risk as someone who does.

Look carefully around the bottom of the barrel near the muzzle. You should be able to see some evidence of where the FH was welded. Taking a picture will up the contrast, too -- making things hard to see pop out.

Are you certain you ordered it perm attached? It makes no sense for someone to permanently attach that FH. If it's under 16" there's no reason it should be perm as it's still an SBR.

Just call your supplier on Tuesday and see what's up, since you don't own a lower. It's not the same issue for you as it would be for one of us.

Why? We can't ask questions on legality of builds?

I actually don't even have a lower in my house yet.

FlyingPen
02-16-2008, 11:17 PM
Are the 16" LMT uppers carbine or midlength?

8200rpm
02-17-2008, 1:07 AM
Are the 16" LMT uppers carbine or midlength?

Carbine gas system.

Also, here is how John Noveske permanently attached a FH...

http://stickman.rainierarms.com/galleries/WeaponEvolution.com/IMG_3579%20WEVO%20Stick.jpg

According to Stickman at WEVO: "The weld is left exposed so there is no question that it is a BATF legal 16 overall length."

Noveske offers both a SBR 14.5" barrel with thread on FH AND a 14.5" barrel with a permanently pinned/welded FH to a total of 16" to comply with NFA.

Here's Randall's work...

http://www.ar15barrels.com/gfx/perm-vortex.jpg

http://www.ar15barrels.com/gfx/perm-attach.jpg

Some people prefer a cleaner look. AFAIK, there is no legal requirement for having a exposed weld. But, unless the person doing the weld went to great lengths to hide the work, you should be able to see some form of it.

ar15barrels
02-17-2008, 1:58 AM
I don't see the reason why you should have to pay for LMT's mistake. If you bought it as a 14.5" barrel pinned to 16" and it's not 16" then they should fix the problem for you. If you just bought a 14.5" barrel then the flash suppressor won't be pinned and you can take it off (hell it's an A2, so just use a pipe wrench and it will come off). Then have the flash suppressor of your choice added and pinned to meet length

LMT does not sell 14.5" barrels with permanent muzzle devices.
They leave NFA compliance up to the purchaser.

I stock lots of different flash suppressors or brakes that will get a 14.5" barrel over 16" once permanent attached.

ar15barrels
02-17-2008, 2:02 AM
Here's Randall's work...

http://www.ar15barrels.com/gfx/perm-vortex.jpg

http://www.ar15barrels.com/gfx/perm-attach.jpg

Some people prefer a cleaner look. AFAIK, there is no legal requirement for having a exposed weld. But, unless the person doing the weld went to great lengths to hide the work, you should be able to see some form of it.

I need to update those pictures.
I now dress the welds on a surface grinder which completely blends the weld after it's blued.

http://ar15barrels.com/tech/permanent-attach-steps.jpg

FlyingPen
02-17-2008, 2:25 AM
Thanks guys, I'll just be bringing it to Randall to get it fixed up.

-hanko
02-17-2008, 6:16 AM
i'm suprized that this thread wasn't deleted by the mods.club fed isn't a nice place to be.they won't even let you have legal length barrels in their abodes
:confused:
I haven't seen OP mention yet that he has a lower receiver. If he did, the armchair lawyers would have made this thread 50 pages by now.

Randall will set him up right.

The exposed bead is not necessary and does look butt-ugly.

-hanko

FlyingPen
02-17-2008, 7:36 AM
:confused:
I haven't seen OP mention yet that he has a lower receiver. If he did, the armchair lawyers would have made this thread 50 pages by now.

Randall will set him up right.

The exposed bead is not necessary and does look butt-ugly.

-hanko

In fact, I do not own one for another 12 days.

Max-the-Silent
02-17-2008, 10:42 AM
sloguy is correct.

ATF uses 16 inch and 18 inch rods to determine legal minimum barrel length.

With the action closed, the rod is inserted into the barrel from the muzzle end - more rod than barrel, you have a problem.

ar15barrels
02-17-2008, 10:55 AM
To answer the topic's title question, I present this drawing:

http://ar15barrels.com/tech/ar15bolt-extension.gif

Measure from the rear face of the barrel extension to the front of the muzzle or permanent muzzle device and subtract 3/8" from your over all length measurement.
That will show your length for legal purposes.

Note that 9mm barrels (Colt pattern) have a different breechface location which is actually 1/8" outside of the barrel so you ADD 1/8" to a 9mm barrel's OAL to get the legal length.
Olympic pattern 9mm/45 barrels follow the same dimensions as regular 223 barrels.

NeoWeird
02-17-2008, 11:17 AM
LMT does not sell 14.5" barrels with permanent muzzle devices.
They leave NFA compliance up to the purchaser.

I stock lots of different flash suppressors or brakes that will get a 14.5" barrel over 16" once permanent attached.

That was my point. If LMT permanently attached the device to 16" then they need to fix it. LMT didn't do that though, at least that's the way it seems now, so the suppressor shouldn't be pinned and he should have no worry just torquing it off.

ar15barrels
02-17-2008, 11:12 PM
If LMT permanently attached the device to 16" then they need to fix it. LMT didn't do that though

LMT has never permanent attached muzzle devices.
They simply don't do that, ever.
They would probably refer you to me for that service.