PDA

View Full Version : Since Squirrel Hunting Will be Illegal Soon . . .


spencerhut
02-13-2008, 9:24 PM
I'm just wonder who is going to be the first poor misinformed schmuck to get nabbed for popping a varmint with a lead bullet on July 2nd. I just can't imagine what that is going to be like for some poor soul. I wonder if this is going to be one of those laws they end up not enforcing or if it's going to be some major push for DFG to come running every time they hear a bang to make sure you used a solid copper bullet.
How many people are going to want to give up their ammo so the DFG can tear it apart to check it for over 1% lead content? Who's going to be the first guy that has ALL his ammo taken for "testing"? Man that would burn me. :mad:
What a death sprial this state is in.

Thanks Gov.

P.S. - Anyone have a Condor stew recipe? Got to be worse than peacock.

spencerhut
02-13-2008, 9:40 PM
Uh . . lead ammo ban. Uh . . no such thing as a .22LR solid copper bullet. Someone will get popped for it, shooting a varmint with lead bullet.

scootergmc
02-13-2008, 9:41 PM
Uh . . lead ammo ban. Uh . . no such thing as a .22LR solid copper bullet. Someone will get popped for it, shooting a varmint with lead bullet.

Stop the FUD. Read this and its links...

http://www.dfg.ca.gov/wildlife/hunting/condor/

specifically this: http://www.dfg.ca.gov/wildlife/hunting/condor/docs/LeadInformation.pdf

spencerhut
02-13-2008, 9:47 PM
I did.

Depredation permit holders will also be required to use non-lead projectiles within the specified condor range. A friend asks me to shoot ground squirrels on his property to reduce crop damage and minimize injuries to his livestock. Will the new ammunition requirements apply to this activity?
Yes.

That means we can not shoot ground squirrels (or any other varmints) with a good old lead bullet. Unless you live outside the Condor area that is.

scootergmc
02-13-2008, 9:51 PM
I did.



That means we can not shoot ground squirrels (or any other varmints) with a good old lead bullet. Unless you live outside the Condor area that is.

Good. Because the title "Since Squirrel Hunting Will be Illegal Soon" is very misleading. Squirrel hunting is not illegal. In the Condor areas hunting with lead ammo is illegal. Plain and simple.

gazzavc
02-13-2008, 9:57 PM
Can't we just shoot the condors directly and have done with it.........


(dark humor)

spencerhut
02-13-2008, 9:58 PM
Making us spend a half buck plus per shot effectively outlaws it, at least for me. I'm used to spending a half day and a full brick popping the little buggers. Let's see 500x .50 = $250 to shoot fuzzy tailed rats. That used to cost me about $10.00. Cheap fun is now illegal.
And for anyone who does not know the new law, it makes them a criminal for popping a varmint with a good old .22lr lead bullet.

Matt C
02-13-2008, 10:00 PM
Making us spend a half buck plus per shot effectively outlaws it, at least for me. I'm used to spending a half day and a full brick popping the little buggers. Let's see 500x .50 = $250 to shoot fuzzy tailed rats. That used to cost me about $10.00. Cheap fun is now illegal.
And for anyone who does not know the new law, it makes them a criminal for popping a varmint with a good old .22lr lead bullet.

Or just bury the remains... Or go somewhere outside the prohibited area.

scootergmc
02-13-2008, 10:05 PM
Or just bury the remains...

Doesn't matter. It's illegal to use lead ammo to hunt period. The 'bury it' was a suggestion by DFG to prevent condors from eating leftover kill.

Fjold
02-13-2008, 10:12 PM
The link says:

If you hunt in the range of the endangered California condor, you are being asked to get the lead out. Following reports that lead ammunition is contributing to the high lead levels documented in some wild condors, the DFG and other agencies involved in the California Condor Recovery Project are asking hunters in condor range (parts of the counties of Tulare, Kern, Los Angeles, Ventura, Santa Barbara, San Luis Obispo, Monterey, and San Benito) to remove lead from the area by following a few simple steps:

Retrieve all killed animals (including coyotes and small game) from the field, or
Hide carcasses or gut piles by burying them, covering them with brush or rocks, or placing them in an inaccessible area, or
Remove bullets and surrounding impacted flesh when leaving carcasses or gut piles in the field, or
Use lead-free ammunition, in which case none of the above is needed.

So take the carcasses, bury them or clean the bullet shot meat and you don't have to use lead free bullets.


In the link it has another link to the actual AB 821, Which only mentions centerfire rifle and pistol ammunition restrictions for large game and coyotes.

http://www.dfg.ca.gov/wildlife/hunting/condor/docs/ab_821_bill_20071013_chaptered[1].pdf

Where does it say rimfire ammunition and ground squirrels?

scootergmc
02-13-2008, 10:20 PM
The link says:

If you hunt in the range of the endangered California condor, you are being asked to get the lead out. Following reports that lead ammunition is contributing to the high lead levels documented in some wild condors, the DFG and other agencies involved in the California Condor Recovery Project are asking hunters in condor range (parts of the counties of Tulare, Kern, Los Angeles, Ventura, Santa Barbara, San Luis Obispo, Monterey, and San Benito) to remove lead from the area by following a few simple steps:

Retrieve all killed animals (including coyotes and small game) from the field, or
Hide carcasses or gut piles by burying them, covering them with brush or rocks, or placing them in an inaccessible area, or
Remove bullets and surrounding impacted flesh when leaving carcasses or gut piles in the field, or
Use lead-free ammunition, in which case none of the above is needed.

So take the carcasses, bury them or clean the bullet shot meat and you don't have to use lead free bullets.

That was DFG's suggestion for their "get the lead out" program prior to the new lead ban going into effect. When it goes into effect, IT WILL BE ILLEGAL TO USE LEAD AMMO FOR HUNTING IN A CONDOR AREA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


After nearly a full year of public testimony, discussion, and environmental analyses, the
Fish and Game Commission in December 2007 adopted regulations (Section 353, Title
14, CCR) that will prohibit the use of projectiles (bullets) containing lead for hunting deer,
bear, wild pig, elk, and pronghorn antelope in areas designated as California condor
range. Additionally, the regulations (Section 475, Title 14, CCR) will also prohibit use of
lead in the same areas when hunting coyote, ground squirrels, and other nongame
wildlife.
When:
The effective date for the new regulations will be July 1, 2008. It will be illegal to hunt
the above species with lead projectiles beginning July 1.

mymonkeyman
02-13-2008, 10:23 PM
I don't understand how they can ban lead rimfire ammo when the statute only says lead centerfire ammo.

Edit: P.s. It's only an infraction and therefore not a "crime" under California law and therefore does not make you a criminal.

Rumpled
02-13-2008, 10:46 PM
The law signed by Arnie was only centerfire.
The Fish and Game Commission, under the authority they have over game - made it even MORE restrictive.

There is NO alternative to lead for .22 and yet they banned lead .22's

Makes sense, uh?

chris
02-13-2008, 10:51 PM
i sure hope that dumb bird dies out so the law will not be able to enforced at all. may all the condors die!!!!!

mymonkeyman
02-14-2008, 2:10 AM
The law signed by Arnie was only centerfire.
The Fish and Game Commission, under the authority they have over game - made it even MORE restrictive.

There is NO alternative to lead for .22 and yet they banned lead .22's

Makes sense, uh?

Well hopefully someone gets the balls to sue and challenge the law as arbitrary and capricious (or whatever the CA APA standard is).

pullnshoot25
02-14-2008, 2:46 AM
We could all become really good bow hunters...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a276/pullnshoot25/the%20hunting%20photos/P7180112.jpg

11Z50
02-14-2008, 3:43 AM
The real impact of this BS law will really hit home (literally, for those of us who live in the CV) on July 2.

For those of us who grew up shooting ground squirrels with .22LR this law will truly be a lifestyle changing event. For those of you that say "hunt somewhere else" I say stand by, this BS is coming your way too.

Myself and thousands of others have been shooting ground squirrels for fun for over 40 years, and there are still plenty to go around. In some areas, like the areas near where I live, hunting squirrels has declined for a number of reasons and the disease-carrying rodents are a true varmint. People have tried poison, traps and other means but nothing works like shooting them.

The idea behind the new law is that when people like me shoot a ground squirrel (which is a non-game animal) and leave it lay, it is consumed by other animals, which is a natural thing. The fear is a Condor, which hasn't been seen in the CV for at least my lifetime, might happen along and eat the remains of said squirrel, and be poisoned by the lead from the bullets which killed it. If you read the DFG info on the new law, the concern is also that other animals might be poisoned as well, which means this BS is headed your way!

This stupid law will also apply to Deer and Pig hunters as well. The idea here is that when one leaves a gut pile in the area of the kill, Mr Condor (or other animal) may happen along and dine on it, thus ingesting the nefarious lead from the hunter's bullet and die.

While there are many arguments against this idiocy, the fact remains that they slipped this one in on us and it WILL effect anybody that hunts in the CV, and mark my words, eventually the whole state.

Like all splendidly useless feel-good legislation in the PRK, the statute is ate up with loopholes. DFG is truly a pain-in-the-azz agency that has lost touch with reality. The common-sense Wardens of yesteryear have been replaced with radical Greenpeace tree huggers that love to screw over the very people that provide them a reason to exist, hunters and fishers.

I researched this law a few weeks back and discovered that while one may not shoot a ground squirrel with a lead 22LR, one may shoot Jackrabbits, cottontails, and tree squirrels. One may also still use lead shot for upland game like Dove and Quail. The law also does not effect plinkers and target shooting, since those activities are not regulated by DFG. If you are afield and plinking though, you had better have a target or something around to shoot at, because DFG Wardens will consider you a hunter if you don't! The law also opens us up to unreasonable searches and seizures since it will be unlawful to simply possess lead ammo while shooting non-game animals.

The real impact here is yet another roadblock is being placed in front of recreational shooters under the guise of an environmental law. A scenario I can see happening post July 2 is a Warden rolling up on a citizen shooting in a lawful public place and conducting a lead bullet check. Even if one is not hunting or shooting non-game animals, one can expect to be accosted, disarmed (in the interest of "officer safety"), searched for the ominous lead bullets, and in general be abused by the LEO involved. If you happen to have an OLL or other provocative weapon, you can count on some serious harassment. Deer hunters afield will be subject to lead ammo checks whenever spotted by DFG.

Lead-free ammo and bullets for reloading are already available. This BS is also creeping into other states, so eventually manufacturers will most likely produce lead-free ammo, to include 22LR, but for now, we are stuck.

Those of us in the CV will have to really watch the situation to see how the DFG Wardens approach this. If they take it as a crusade, we could be in for some serious trouble. We in the CV that value our shooting will need to stay in close touch with each other to see how this unfolds.

Ford8N
02-14-2008, 5:41 AM
Like all splendidly useless feel-good legislation in the PRK, the statute is ate up with loopholes. DFG is truly a pain-in-the-jazz agency that has lost touch with reality. The common-sense Wardens of yesteryear have been replaced with radical Greenpeace tree huggers that love to screw over the very people that provide them a reason to exist, hunters and fishers.





I had a talk with an lifer DFG Warden a few years back. He had been a Warden for about thirty years and was getting ready to retire. He said that the new Wardens that the State was hiring were "city kids" that had never shot a gun or even hunted or fished.:eek: And a lot were what he described as "Bambi protectors" out to save the animals from the "NRA hillbillies". This was about fifteen years ago so it looks like those new Wardens have finally moved up the ranks to positions of power. So it doesn't surprise me that we have a ban on lead to save an animal left over from the last Ice Age when California had Camels, Ground Sloths and Elephants.

AJAX22
02-14-2008, 6:48 AM
Doesn't matter. It's illegal to use lead ammo to hunt period. The 'bury it' was a suggestion by DFG to prevent condors from eating leftover kill.


He may not necicarily have been talking about burying squirls.... ;)

Solidmch
02-14-2008, 7:02 AM
i sure hope that dumb bird dies out so the law will not be able to enforced at all. may all the condors die!!!!!

+1,000,000
stupid buzzard!

EastBayRidge
02-14-2008, 7:38 AM
"...the disease-carrying rodents are a true varmint."

The law banning lead bullets may wind up colliding with the law of unintended consequences...

otteray
02-14-2008, 8:16 AM
Fort Hunter Ligget and The Tejon Ranch have banned all lead, including lead shot. Camp Roberts, too, I think.
Other states are now talking about eagle deaths from lead poisoning.
The alternative, copper, is noted as being suspect, as well!
Research is being conducted on this and we all may soon be using paper spit wads.
Lead at target ranges is a focus of the anti agenda; here in Santa Cruz, we lost our only public range even after valid arguments had been presented.
Our club in Scotts Valley spent a lot of money proving a lead hazard did not exist on site; but we had to give up our shotgun area as a bone thrown in for appeasement.

emc002
02-14-2008, 8:26 AM
I can't wait for another Boubonic (SP?) Plague outbreak from those freaking ground rats when their numbers blossom!
Then what? Can't poison them, shoot them. Maybe PETA can go out and put little condoms on them!

On another note, if you're shooting ground squirrels for varmit control on a farm/ranch, do you need a hunting license? I have quite a few ranchers that ask me to eradicate the little red rat bastards on their property (not in Condor range, yay!) My buddy hasn't had a huting license in nearly 20 years and wants to come with me next time but his Hunter's Safety Class won't be until a few weeks after ny next trip.

Hunter
02-14-2008, 8:45 AM
....IT WILL BE ILLEGAL TO USE LEAD AMMO FOR HUNTING IN A CONDOR AREA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well not quite true.

It will be illegal to hunt deer, pig, bear, elk and antelope using ammo with more than 1% lead.

It will be illegal to hunt coyote, ground squirrels and other NONGAME species with ammo that has over 1% lead.

It is NOT illegal to hunt rabbits, hares, tree squirrels and other GAME species that are legal to hunt with a rimfire round.

The Commission has not addressed the issue of hunting small game mammals because
that section of the regulations was not “opened” for potential change. Therefore, hunters
can legally hunt jackrabbit, cottontail, and tree squirrel using lead projectiles, but not
ground squirrels in the same area. Part of the reasoning for this is that unlike nongame
animals that are hunted and usually left in the field, game species must be retrieved and
not wasted.
The Department and Commission are of the understanding that non-lead projectiles for
rimfire are not readily available or manufactured at this time and that the only non-lead
rimfire is in .22 caliber magnum, and not for the very popular .22 short, long, or long rifle.

otteray
02-14-2008, 8:48 AM
My buddy hasn't had a huting license in nearly 20 years and wants to come with me next time but his Hunter's Safety Class won't be until a few weeks after ny next trip.

He can simply sign an affidavit at the sporting goods store that he possesed a hunting license in the past, or else present an old license.

wildcard
02-14-2008, 9:34 AM
Or just bury the remains...

That is/ was when they were instructing you on how to protect the condors voluntarily prior to the enactment of the the Assembly Bill. Once the Assembly Bill takes effect, there will be a ban on the use lead ammunition.

yellowfin
02-14-2008, 9:35 AM
Hmm...Barnes X bullets in a .22 hornet? Nowhere near as cheap, but the next best thing.

Glock22Fan
02-14-2008, 9:59 AM
Whenever I've shot a ground squirrel with a .22, the bullet has passed right through and buried itself in the backstop. So, how does switching bullets help the condor?

Pred@tor
02-14-2008, 10:17 AM
Or just bury the remains... Or go somewhere outside the prohibited area.

You ever shot squirrels Matt? They eat each other sometimes you don't even find all their bodies.

Pred@tor
02-14-2008, 10:22 AM
Its gonna be 500 fine for a violation and I know some people that just are not complying. Personally I'd rather pay for the expensive bullets than get a fine like that. Still though the law is bogus and is there to discourage hunting in the state of California. Hell just go to a free state and have fun! This law has pissed off a lot of hunters including me.

Ironchef
02-14-2008, 10:32 AM
http://www.calpoly.edu/~bio/ubl/Condor.html

An interesting article. The Condor repopulation effort is from 22 individuals. Inbreeding is unavoidable in such a small population. Bad genetic traits will be amplified also. The Condor was already doomed. All this effort is doing is prolonging the inevitable and wasting tax payer dollars.

I just watched the news last night and they said the condor is flourishing with over 300 of them being monitored by scientists. They showed a map of the 300 and they largely stayed along the coast, and then along the seirra nevada range (whatever's east of CV) and all mostly in southern california.

The show suggested that they have been saved from extinction, and as they continue to breed and flourish, they may even be removed from the endangered species.

I have no reason to doubt they are doing well with them. I know it's not popular on this message board to give a crap about the environment or animals, but I give a crap and maybe it's something to negotiate on without all the doomsday conspiracy theories ("soon the DFG will be seizing your ammo and testing it"). But that's just me, I don't pop squirrels all day for fun so I don't know how sacred that kind of thing is for some of you.

Bobula
02-14-2008, 10:52 AM
Where exactly is the condor range. Why are they (DFG) under the impression every lead bullet a miss a deer with in pioneer kills a condor in Socal.

otteray
02-14-2008, 12:33 PM
[QUOTE=Bobula;1001287]Where exactly is the condor range. QUOTE]

Everywhere, eventually.

"The California condor historically ranged throughout the western United States from Canada to Mexico, with some populations as far east as Florida and New York. Current range includes Californiaís southern coastal ranges from Big Sur to Ventura County, east through the Transverse Range and the southern Sierra Nevada, with other populations in northern Baja California and Arizona." http://www.defenders.org/wildlife_and_habitat/wildlife/california_condor.php

Matt C
02-14-2008, 1:29 PM
That is/ was when they were instructing you on how to protect the condors voluntarily prior to the enactment of the the Assembly Bill. Once the Assembly Bill takes effect, there will be a ban on the use lead ammunition.

My mistake, that site is very misleading...

otteray
02-14-2008, 7:01 PM
Like I said earlier, it ain't quite like ya think.
All lead for hunting anything is being banned, slowly, but certainly.
Private hunting lands and the Government training areas are closing the door.
http://www.calguard.ca.gov/CpRbts/Pages/HuntFish.aspx (CR Regulations & Penalties)


SUMMARY of CHANGE


Camp Roberts Regulation 210-1
Hunting and Fishing Program

2-4. Firearms and Ammunition.

b. Beginning 1 July 2007, all hunters are required to use non-lead bullet ammunition.
c. Beginning 1 July 2008, all hunters are required to use non-lead shot ammunition for upland game hunting







------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.liggett.army.mil/sites/fishhunt/pdf/Newsletter2007-1.pdf

Phase-Out of Lead Ammunition
for Hunting at Ft. Hunter Liggett

We strive to reduce wildlife exposure to spent lead ammunition
from hunting at FHL. For now, we ask that you use nonlead
ammunition for hunting at FHL. Beginning July 1, 2007,
FHL will require that hunters use non-lead bullet ammunition
(bullets, single balls, slugs and pellets). This will affect
mammal hunting on FHL, which includes pig, deer, elk, coyote,
bobcat, jackrabbit, cottontail, and tree squirrel. July 1, 2008,
FHL will extend this requirement to non-lead shot. This will
affect bird and mammal hunting for dove, quail, band-tailed pigeon,
turkey, jackrabbit, cottontail, and tree squirrel.
Our actions build upon the use of non-toxic shot for waterfowl,
state rules for non-toxic shot for upland game in South Dakota
and Missouri, and recent regulation proposals in California.
We hope to be your information center on this matter. Mail or
email your questions or comments so we can shape our awareness
program.
The military has also field-tested non-lead ammunition,
though training does not result in lead-tainted carrion.
Email Address: HuntNFish@liggett-emh1.army.mil
Mailing Address: Commander, Fort Hunter Liggett,
ATTN: IMSW-CST-PWE, PO Box 7091,
Fort Hunter Liggett, CA 93928-7091

11Z50
02-14-2008, 7:32 PM
The real endangered species is the law-abiding, patriotic, tax-paying gun owner that simply enjoys shooting. We are being taxed, harassed, screwed with, and generally run out of this state unless we change our ways and become what a privileged few believe we ought to be.

DFG has become yet another arm of the JBT thuggery that is increasing daily.

Oh, and if you didn't know, the military is glad to get hunters off their bases, since citizens using the land that they have paid for with taxes but the military claims as "theirs" has always pissed them off. This lead ammo ban will be the perfect excuse. The bases at FHL and CR have had innumerable tons of lead, phosphorous, chemicals, hazmat and God knows what else shot, dumped, bombed and blasted into them. Now it seems a few hunters with lead bullets and shot are bigger threat than the millions of rounds that I personally help place into the eco-systems there. Pure crap.

Salty
02-14-2008, 8:08 PM
Lead at target ranges is a focus of the anti agenda; here in Santa Cruz, we lost our only public range even after valid arguments had been presented.


Yep, I keep trying to tell people this. It went straight from "no more lead ammo" to "we don't trust the public to use non-lead ammo, so we'll just shut the range down" over night.

I'm worried that lead will be banned for target shooting once / if the cal dairy property legaly becomes BLM land.

otteray
02-14-2008, 8:30 PM
I'm worried that lead will be banned for target shooting once / if the cal dairy property legaly becomes BLM land.
Talking about the Coast Dairies Land above Santa Cruz?
I believe that it has been declared a no public hunting area as part of the transfer deal to BLM.
The best dove hunting I've ever experienced was there.
Tons of quail, wild boar and deer, too. Bummer.

Salty
02-15-2008, 9:52 AM
Talking about the Coast Dairies Land above Santa Cruz?
I believe that it has been declared a no public hunting area as part of the transfer deal to BLM.
The best dove hunting I've ever experienced was there.
Tons of quail, wild boar and deer, too. Bummer.

Yeah that's what I've heard. I haven't been able to find much info on it though. I know at one point the hippies didn't want it to become BLM land at all because of the freedom and lack of rules that that entails.

Any info one that? Has it actually been transfered to the BLM?

simonov
02-15-2008, 1:51 PM
I know what I am about to say doesn't really apply to Calgunners, but allow me an opportunity to wallow in a more general gloat:

Why should firearms enthusiasts and gun rights activists give a toss about this law affecting only hunters, while hunters have stood by for decades as "scary-looking" firearms were demonized and criminalized, claiming, "Oh well, banning those nasty ARs and AKs has no effect on our noble blood sports!"

The law as described here sounds dangerous to me, but not because I give a **** about California's rimfire hunters. It would be nice if more hunters could pull their heads out of the sand and try to understand where I am going with this.

Bizcuits
02-15-2008, 2:45 PM
Shoot the squirrels with your .22, if LEO or FishNGame come out, plead Spirit of the Law. Explain you were forced to do it, because of an infestation of dieased squirrels. Explain how your efforts to use poison and traps failed.

Kaptain
04-14-2008, 4:32 PM
Id love to see some actual evidence that a california condor eats lead bullets out of dead carcases. i know there stupid birds, but come on, eating lead bullets?......i think its a total ration of bull. furthermore, the califor nia condor has a defined boundry range as per DFG. well, the california condors natural range is THE ENTIRE STATE of california, so how long is it going to be before they ban lead ammo all together?...we have seen the CC on several occasions right here above redding,right along with the bald eagles that nest not 1 mile from my house. if they want to do something thats going to have an impact,why doesnt the state of california make the counties clean up the MASSIVE amounts of MERCURY thats in butte and several other conties in california. butte county has so much mercury, i know of one creek, not 200 yards from a school that is so full of mercury everywere you can go down and collect it all over. i went down and gathered over 10lbs in 15 minutes. im a gold prospector, and have been for over 30 years. i own one of the largest gold prospecting forums on the internet, so im very familiar with mercury and its uses in mining. these creeks are flowing right smack into the forebay and afterbay in the oroville area, as well as lake oroville itself. theres so much merc ury that the kids at this school gather it and play with it daily. what are they doing about it?...NOTHING....they ( scientists) say that one single ounce of raw mercury is enough to contaminate a lake the size of lake oroville....they have places you cant even eat the fish because of mercury poisoning......because of the mercury, oroville and butte county is a known and documented CANCER CLUSTER. i lived there for 17 years, and have known no less than 20 people who died of cancer. i contacted the state about it, and what did they do?....told me to mind my own business and shut the f*ck up.....why?...because if it ever got out in the media and was stirred up, they would esentually have to evacuate and condem the whole city. its in the drinking water ( in high and measurable levels right out of the tap, right along with cyanide and arsenic)...now, which is worst, making some stupid sh*t like the lead ammo crap up to satisfy a bunch of tree hugging greenie ****oles, or actually spending the money and doing something about cleaning stuff like this mercury up?......how many PEOPLE die each year from mercury poisoning vs how many "california buzzards" croak? i think the only lead that the CC injests is what they catch from people busting there asses.....


sorry to go off on such a tangent, but just reading about this sort of chit really pizzes me off bigtime.

ldivinag
04-14-2008, 7:30 PM
that's why i'll be using my cheytac 408 to hunt these buggers...

ammo is machined from copper stock.

no lead...




jk. ;)

pullnshoot25
04-14-2008, 10:20 PM
In 1982 there were only 22 left. So the 300 now are from 22 individuals. That's a small genepool. The condor will suffer from the good and the bad genetic traits, and they will be amplified as the genepool is to small to dilute genetic disorders.

Elephant seals are stronger than they were 100+ years ago and the genetic variation from seal to seal is next to zero.

Nature sometimes works out.

Tyler
04-14-2008, 10:51 PM
This law is ridicules, just don't follow it. It is that simple. They have only the power we give them. My squirrels are all going to be eating lead, and they can't catch us all :chris:

Riodog
04-14-2008, 11:08 PM
Kaptain, and a couple of others have made many great points.

I have yet to see any proof what-so-ever that even 1 stinkin condor has died from lead poisoning.

The DFG and the politicians are blowing smoke up our *sses.
1. Have you ever retrieved a squirrel with a bullet in it? I haven't.
2. Has the DFG ever found a dead condor with a bullet lodged in it's butt as that's the only way it would die from a bullet.
3. Anyone here ever swallowed a bullet??? I have, holding one in my yap and turning around suddenly I wound up swallowing it. What happened? I dumped it in the toilet a couple hours later. So would the damned vulture. Beside, they don't taste all that great either less you put horseradish on um.
4. Most of the time I field dress a critter the bullet doesn't wind up in the 'gut-pile' but either in the carcass or in my pocket. The greater majority of coyotes I've shot have been shot clean through. The bullet winds up somewhere out in the soil somewhere.
5. Where do the bullets that you shoot at the range wind up? Out in the soil somewhere. They'll outlaw all shooting before you know it cuz of the possibility that some ol' bird, squirrel or whatever might be cruising around the area for a tasty bite of lead when the range is closed .
6. Last but not least. The lead from a bullet is not the same substance as the lead in gasoline, paint, etc. The DFG is using a total lie to destroy and criminalize all hunting, gun ownership, etc., in California. They are in cahoots with every other "brady-type" organization.

I'm to the point that if I see a stinkin condor in my backyard- it dies... I'd like to see a BOUNTY on both condors and politicians. Bag um and tag um.

I guess I'm not very "politically correct". Why, I even use MERCURY to get the lead out of my gun barrels when they need it. Oh heck, guess I'm just a criminal and don't know it.
Rio

Kaptain
04-15-2008, 9:50 AM
well bro, if you need a buttload of mercury, just go up highway 70 out of oroville headed up the canyon. when you see the sign that says pentz road, pull over to the left,walk down the hill to the creek and collect away. remeber too that that mercury has so much gold in it, you should strain it first before using it...LOL

Kaptain
04-15-2008, 9:53 AM
i tell you what, we should all get a petition together and take DFG to court and make them proove there case. sometime back, the DFG and the karuk indian tribe tried to lay a bunch of bullsh*t on the court about how mining was killing all of these fish,etc. they lost in court, and on top of that dfg was ordered to complete an ENVIROMENTAL IMPACT STUDY which they STILL havent done......

it seems that since the greenies cant do anything about the guns, they started attacking the ammo....if you dont reload, maybe its about time you started

there going to keep this sh*t up until someone goes out and kills a few deer and sprinkles the remains with a couple hundred pounds of #9 lead shot...lol....

CSACANNONEER
04-15-2008, 10:16 AM
I know what I am about to say doesn't really apply to Calgunners, but allow me an opportunity to wallow in a more general gloat:

Why should firearms enthusiasts and gun rights activists give a toss about this law affecting only hunters, while hunters have stood by for decades as "scary-looking" firearms were demonized and criminalized, claiming, "Oh well, banning those nasty ARs and AKs has no effect on our noble blood sports!"

The law as described here sounds dangerous to me, but not because I give a **** about California's rimfire hunters. It would be nice if more hunters could pull their heads out of the sand and try to understand where I am going with this.

20-25 years ago, I would have agreed with you but, I don't think that has been the case for years. Of course, there have been a few exceptions such as Zumbo but, see where that kind of thinking got him.

chris
04-15-2008, 2:03 PM
http://www.calpoly.edu/~bio/ubl/Condor.html

An interesting article. The Condor repopulation effort is from 22 individuals. Inbreeding is unavoidable in such a small population. Bad genetic traits will be amplified also. The Condor was already doomed. All this effort is doing is prolonging the inevitable and wasting tax payer dollars.

good may they all die soon. also i hope i find a dead one and piss all over it. stupid bird. the condors time has gone the way of the do do bird. only nature nazis want to keep it alive. die condor die!!! i won't miss this bird one bit!

Peashooter
04-15-2008, 3:01 PM
i tell you what, we should all get a petition together and take DFG to court and make them proove there case. sometime back, the DFG and the karuk indian tribe tried to lay a bunch of bullsh*t on the court about how mining was killing all of these fish,etc. they lost in court, and on top of that dfg was ordered to complete an ENVIROMENTAL IMPACT STUDY which they STILL havent done......

it seems that since the greenies cant do anything about the guns, they started attacking the ammo....if you dont reload, maybe its about time you started

there going to keep this sh*t up until someone goes out and kills a few deer and sprinkles the remains with a couple hundred pounds of #9 lead shot...lol....




Daniel Patterson uses the same legal tactics directed at the BLM.

The Center for Biological Diversity creates lawsuits against the BLM and its lack of doing its job in providing studies of impact areas like the Imperial Sand Dunes to try and get public lands shut down. IMHO its just all about the money they make when they win cases no matter what the cause? It started with the spotted owl crap, Just a legal racket they have Made into a lucrative living.

When the CBD win they get reimbursed for legal fees that adds up to millions.
Cal Hunters and shooters can utilize the same tactics that the Enviros use.
Sue them and make them do the environmental impact studies.

Decoligny
04-15-2008, 3:15 PM
Where exactly is the condor range. Why are they (DFG) under the impression every lead bullet a miss a deer with in pioneer kills a condor in Socal.

http://mercury.ornl.gov/metadata/nbii/html/ceic/gis.ca.gov_catalog_ceic_export_online_StateOfCACri ticalFaunaHabitat(21224).html

Noah
05-15-2008, 10:56 AM
3. Anyone here ever swallowed a bullet???.... ....Beside, they don't taste all that great either less you put horseradish on um.
Rio
:rofl2:

John117
05-15-2008, 12:45 PM
i tell you what, we should all get a petition together and take DFG to court and make them proove there case. sometime back, the DFG and the karuk indian tribe tried to lay a bunch of bullsh*t on the court about how mining was killing all of these fish,etc. they lost in court, and on top of that dfg was ordered to complete an ENVIROMENTAL IMPACT STUDY which they STILL havent done......



Would getting a petition started be too difficult? I'm on board.

I'm really interested in the Cancer Cluster you were dicussing. That frightens me that the state would rather BS a law restricting lead ammo into legislation than clean up all that mercury.

Since I don't know much about that area, I tried doing some research but came up empty handed. I'd like to find out more so I can spread the word.

(edit: grammar)

bernieb90
05-15-2008, 2:39 PM
Here is an interesting quote from the DFG website.

"Are pellet rifles included in the non-lead ammunition ban?
Pellet rifles are not considered a firearm. Consequently, neither pellet rifles nor their
projectiles would be included in the ban."

So now we get to the root of the issue. Not one of these people care about Condors ingesting lead at all. If they did then the rules would be the same for pellet gun and firearms (pellets have a much greater chance of not exiting an animal). The fact is that they are after firearm hunters plain and simple. Less people hunting with firearms means less people buying firearms to hunt with.

tetris
05-15-2008, 3:02 PM
I did.
Depredation permit holders will also be required to use non-lead projectiles within the specified condor range. A friend asks me to shoot ground squirrels on his property to reduce crop damage and minimize injuries to his livestock. Will the new ammunition requirements apply to this activity?
Yes.

Holly Molly, you mean this applies to private property too? I didn't realize that. I assumed it applied only to public land, like BLM, etc.

Well, if you are shooting on private property, the mere fact your shooting doesn't give them probable cause to check your ammo, I would think. I mean, they would have no indication that it is lead ammo. I think that this bill will be unenforceable.

tetris
05-15-2008, 3:03 PM
Here is an interesting quote from the DFG website.

"Are pellet rifles included in the non-lead ammunition ban?
Pellet rifles are not considered a firearm. Consequently, neither pellet rifles nor their
projectiles would be included in the ban."

So now we get to the root of the issue. Not one of these people care about Condors ingesting lead at all. If they did then the rules would be the same for pellet gun and firearms (pellets have a much greater chance of not exiting an animal). The fact is that they are after firearm hunters plain and simple. Less people hunting with firearms means less people buying firearms to hunt with.

Thats certainly possible. Its also certainly possible that it was just a dumb oversight by the people who sponsored the bill.

GuyW
05-15-2008, 3:34 PM
Holly Molly, you mean this applies to private property too? I didn't realize that. I assumed it applied only to public land, like BLM, etc....

All hunting laws affect the entire territory of CA.

...Well, if you are shooting on private property, the mere fact your shooting doesn't give them probable cause to check your ammo, I would think. I mean, they would have no indication that it is lead ammo. I think that this bill will be unenforceable.

Game wardens can enter private property to determine whether hunting laws are or have been violated...that means they can investigate whether its target practice occuring, or hunting (with or without a license).....

NRAhighpowershooter
05-15-2008, 4:33 PM
I just watched the news last night and they said the condor is flourishing with over 300 of them being monitored by scientists. They showed a map of the 300 and they largely stayed along the coast, and then along the seirra nevada range (whatever's east of CV) and all mostly in southern california.

The show suggested that they have been saved from extinction, and as they continue to breed and flourish, they may even be removed from the endangered species.

I have no reason to doubt they are doing well with them. I know it's not popular on this message board to give a crap about the environment or animals, but I give a crap and maybe it's something to negotiate on without all the doomsday conspiracy theories ("soon the DFG will be seizing your ammo and testing it"). But that's just me, I don't pop squirrels all day for fun so I don't know how sacred that kind of thing is for some of you.

Why are they trying to save these friggin buzzards anyway??? According to the experts.. over 98% of ALL the animals that have been on this earth since time began are EXTINCT!!!

chris
05-15-2008, 6:20 PM
screw this stupid buzzard this bird's time is up. we now have a ban on ammo that can be used in almost half of the states' hunting area. can anyone see the camels' nose in the tent on this one. having said that we can use differnent ammo but for most the only company that has a wide selection of ammo is Barnes the others are in R&D and they only have certain calibers. this is BS plain and simple based on junk science and it was fact in this stupid state.

i hope this stupid bird dies and dies off soon.

Fjold
05-15-2008, 7:14 PM
I just watched the news last night and they said the condor is flourishing with over 300 of them being monitored by scientists. They showed a map of the 300 and they largely stayed along the coast, and then along the seirra nevada range (whatever's east of CV) and all mostly in southern california.

The show suggested that they have been saved from extinction, and as they continue to breed and flourish, they may even be removed from the endangered species.

I have no reason to doubt they are doing well with them. I know it's not popular on this message board to give a crap about the environment or animals, but I give a crap and maybe it's something to negotiate on without all the doomsday conspiracy theories ("soon the DFG will be seizing your ammo and testing it"). But that's just me, I don't pop squirrels all day for fun so I don't know how sacred that kind of thing is for some of you.

300 individuals is not "flourishing" especially with such a narrow gene pool. What they don't mention is that none of these 300 individuals is capable of raising chicks in the wild. All the young from the 22 individuals that makes up the current population of 300 birds have been hand raised in captivity.

tankerman
05-15-2008, 10:16 PM
The show suggested that they have been saved from extinction, and as they continue to breed and flourish, they may even be removed from the endangered species.

I have no reason to doubt they are doing well with them. I know it's not popular on this message board to give a crap about the environment or animals, but I give a crap and maybe it's something to negotiate on without all the doomsday conspiracy theories ("soon the DFG will be seizing your ammo and testing it"). But that's just me, I don't pop squirrels all day for fun so I don't know how sacred that kind of thing is for some of you.
If you saw it on the news it must be real. Yah, they are doing real great, now all we have to do is clean up every piece of trash in the entire state and then the skies will be filled with the beautiful condor
http://www.lpfw.org/news/microtrash%20removed%20from%20chick.JPG
Stomach contents of a California condor. Photo courtesy USFWS.

VOLUNTEERS NEEDED TO REMOVE
TRASH FROM CONDOR HABITAT
Condor Biologists Fear Young Condors Could Ingest Glass, Bottle Caps, Wires, Screws, and Other Small Trash From Whitaker Peak Near Sespe Wilderness
On Saturday, September 22, Fores****ch volunteers returned to Whitaker Peak, an area adjacent to the Sespe Wilderness near the Ventura/LA county line. The site is frequented by an adult California condor. Unfortunately, the area is also littered with small bits of trash, which the curious condor picks up and brings to her nearby nest, endangering its young.
In July, Fores****ch volunteers began their work at this site. However, there was so much broken glass, shotgun shells, and other bits of trash scattered about this site that we needed to come back and finish the job. Our dedicated volunteers have now removed more than 200 pounds of microtrash from this site!
Earlier this year, condor biologists at the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service became concerned about large amounts of trash on Whitaker Peak. Several condors have died or required surgery after ingesting these small trash fragments.
Microtrash is a term used to describe small bits of debris like bottle caps, rags, screws, bolts, wires, glass, and other materials found in condor habitat. Condors, curious by nature, are attracted to microtrash, and often ingest it or bring it back to their nests, where condor chicks swallow the small pieces. Microtrash is not digestible and is fatal unless it's surgically removed.

Microtrash is one of the leading threats to the recovery of the California condor. It's been the cause of nest failure for three of 11 chicks hatched in southern California previous to this year. Another chick was recently removed from its nest to have the trash surgically removed.
The problem is particularly troublesome for one condor pair nesting at the nearby Hopper Mountain National Wildlife Refuge. This pair had two previous nestings in which their chick was full of trash. The female wears an electronic transmitter, and condor biologists know that she frequents the Whitaker Peak area. They suspect that this site is where she picks up much of this trash.
http://www.lazoo.org/conservation/images/condor102306-3.jpg


Maybe we can set up MASH units for Condors so we can make sure they keep dpoing so well:rolleyes:

E Pluribus Unum
05-15-2008, 11:00 PM
Game wardens can enter private property to determine whether hunting laws are or have been violated...that means they can investigate whether its target practice occuring, or hunting (with or without a license).....

There must still be probable cause. They cannot simply enter private property. There must be gun shots, visable people with guns, or something of the sort. They have no "get out of the 4th amendment free card".

And then if all there is is gun shots and when the shooter is found there is no further probable cause such as entrails, blood, feathers, et cetera or a self-admission of hunting, he cannot search for game. They must be able to articulate PC to search just like any other LEO.

mymonkeyman
05-15-2008, 11:12 PM
There must still be probable cause. They cannot simply enter private property. There must be gun shots, visable people with guns, or something of the sort. They have no "get out of the 4th amendment free card".

And then if all there is is gun shots and when the shooter is found there is no further probable cause such as entrails, blood, feathers, et cetera or a self-admission of hunting, he cannot search for game. They must be able to articulate PC to search just like any other LEO.

Open field doctrine. According to SCOTUS, you have no reasonable expectation of privacy in open fields, even if they are private property you own, so no warrant or probable cause required to search there. Now that doesn't mean they can search your person, your house, your curtilage, your belongings, or your car without probable cause, although they probably think they can because the statute seems to say they can do whatever they want.

E Pluribus Unum
05-15-2008, 11:26 PM
Open field doctrine. According to SCOTUS, you have no reasonable expectation of privacy in open fields, even if they are private property you own, so no warrant or probable cause required to search there. Now that doesn't mean they can search your person, your house, your curtilage, your belongings, or your car without probable cause, although they probably think they can because the statute seems to say they can do whatever they want.

Neither Katz v. U.S., nor Hester v. US prohibits me from commanding a law enforcement officer from vacating my private property. This is of course assuming no crime has been committed.

The officers would have probable cause to enter the property but as I said, once the shooter was found if there were no feathers, entrails or an incriminating statement that would establish PC that hunting was occuring they would be forced to leave the property without searching the individuals envolved.

GuyW
05-15-2008, 11:34 PM
...The officers would have probable cause to enter the property but as I said, once the shooter was found if there were no feathers, entrails or an incriminating statement that would establish PC that hunting was occuring they would be forced to leave the property without searching the individuals envolved.

Establishing PC that hunting is/has occurred depends on the facts.

Poaching requires a corpus or other evidence - mere hunting does not...(hunting is the pursuit, not necessarily the shooting, of game)

For example, a Warden can reasonably conclude a person is hunting turkeys if he is camo'd out, has a face mask on, carrying turkey calls, has a gun (loaded), hiding in the brush, etc. Similarly, if no target-shooting targets are acertainable, and the party is carrying a loaded rifle around in his hands, it might be reasonable to conclude that said party was hunting pigs, deer, whatever, and not target shooting.

mymonkeyman
05-15-2008, 11:35 PM
Neither Katz v. U.S., nor Hester v. US prohibits me from commanding a law enforcement officer from vacating my private property. This is of course assuming no crime has been committed.

The officers would have probable cause to enter the property but as I said, once the shooter was found if there were no feathers, entrails or an incriminating statement that would establish PC that hunting was occuring they would be forced to leave the property without searching the individuals envolved.

Oliver v. United States is the most recent SCOTUS case that confirmed the open field doctrine, the one that was found in Hester. I don't see how Katz is relevant, we aren't talking about bugging a public telephone booth.

Either way, the point of Oliver is that cops CAN go on your private property if its an open field and search it. You can tell them to leave till your blue in the face, and it may be a state crime or tort for them to not leave, but that doesn't' mean it's a 4th amendment violation. Heck, that's what the guy did in Oliver, he set up No Trespassing signs all over the place, gates, fences, and shouted at the officers to leave, but that didn't violate the 4th amendment.

The absence of a reasonable expectation of privacy there means that it doesn't matter if a crime was committed, no suspicion is needed. The open field doctrine does not give officers PC to enter but them require them to leave if they cannot confirm their PC, it lets them be in and search open fields with out any cause whatsoever. They could set up lawn chairs in your field and sip Kool-aid all day without violating the 4th amendment, no need for probable cause, reasonable suspicion or anything else.

Now, as I already mentioned, searching your person is different.

E Pluribus Unum
05-15-2008, 11:46 PM
Oliver v. United States is the most recent SCOTUS case that confirmed the open field doctrine, the one that was found in Hester. I don't see how Katz is relevant; we aren't talking about bugging a public telephone booth.

Either way, the point of Oliver is that cops CAN go on your private property if itís an open field and search it. You can tell them to leave till your blue in the face, and it may be a state crime or tort for them to not leave, but that doesn't' mean it's a 4th amendment violation. Heck, that's what the guy did in Oliver, he set up No Trespassing signs all over the place, gates, fences, and shouted at the officers to leave, but that didn't violate the 4th amendment.

The absence of a reasonable expectation of privacy there means that it doesn't matter if a crime was committed, no suspicion is needed. The open field doctrine does not give officers PC to enter but then require them to leave if they cannot confirm their PC, it lets them be in and search open fields with out any cause whatsoever. They could set up lawn chairs in your field and sip Kool-aid all day without violating the 4th amendment, no need for probable cause, reasonable suspicion or anything else.

Now, as I already mentioned, searching your person is different.

That is as foolish as saying that someone breaking into your car and searching it for money is not a 4th amendment violation. Of course it isn't, that does not make it legal. There are state statutes that make it illegal despite the fact that the 4th amendment is not being violated.

State law prohibits trespassing on private land. Nothing says that a LEO is exempt from trespassing absent PC of a crime. You are arguing semantics here.

Establishing PC that hunting is/has occurred depends on the facts.

Poaching requires a corpus or other evidence - mere hunting does not...(hunting is the pursuit, not necessarily the shooting, of game)

For example, a Warden can reasonably conclude a person is hunting turkeys if he is camo'd out, has a face mask on, carrying turkey calls, has a gun (loaded), hiding in the brush, etc. Similarly, if no target-shooting targets are ascertainable, and the party is carrying a loaded rifle around in his hands, it might be reasonable to conclude that said party was hunting pigs, deer, whatever, and not target shooting.

This might work on public lands but I do not see it working on private property. Unless of course the person incriminates himself. This is solved by simply stating he was waiting to catch poachers trespassing on the land. I can dress in full camo with a loaded rifle on my property if I so choose. That is not hunting.

corrosively_armed
11-16-2008, 9:22 PM
Why do people hate squirrels so much. I think they're cute.

yellowfin
11-16-2008, 10:15 PM
They're annoying but tasty, easy to find, and are a perfect way to teach kids to hunt. The latter is a huge reason we all should be a lot more attentive to fighting a bit harder to get this condor nonsense thrown out. Why do people hate squirrels so much. I think they're cute.

E Pluribus Unum
11-17-2008, 1:24 AM
Why do people hate squirrels so much. I think they're cute.

Holy Necro-Post Batman....

ptoguy2002
11-17-2008, 11:35 AM
Why do people hate squirrels so much. I think they're cute.

You must live in the city and not get out much.

A puffy tale makes a rat cute I guess.

corrosively_armed
11-17-2008, 8:58 PM
You must live in the city and not get out much.

A puffy tale makes a rat cute I guess.

I actually have always lived out in the country but unfortunately we don't have squirrels right around here. They did have them in the large park in town until the idiot county decided to poison every last one of them. I enjoyed watching them while eating lunch on a work day.