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hoffmang
02-12-2008, 8:44 PM
The question of "do I have to put a serial number" on my home built AK or other firearm has been coming up a lot recently.

Here is the law as I understand it with support below:

1. It is not required that you put the build location or a serial number on a firearm that you build at home.

2. You can not build a firearm at home with the intent to immediately sell it.

3. Prudence may dictate that you do want to place a serial number on the firearm as LEOs may not understand and think that you have obliterated a serial number which is illegal under both Federal and California law. I recommend your initials and a number - something like Redwood City, CA - GH-0001.

4. If years later you decide you want to sell your homebuilt rifle to someone else, you can, but it will require that it have a serial number and place of manufacture per Federal law.

5. Please be careful about the California definition of "zip gun" in PC 12020 (http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/dwcl/12020.htm). Building a firearm that is the same design as a firearm that has been or is being sold commercially is safe but there are large and dangerous grey areas for designs that are not already in commerce. Building an AK, FAL, or AR is not a problem under the zip gun definition however.

6. DOJ BoF has opined that private individuals can manufacture non rostered handguns. However, I'm not 100% confident of their legal reasoning so do be careful in that arena.

7. Always be mindful that constructive possession does apply to machine gun parts. Never have a receiver that can accept FA FCGs and generally don't have FA FCG parts around period. Searching the forum will give you more information that at least one Calgunner has gotten into Federal hot water over FA fire control parts.

For clarification on the serial number issue please refer to this ATF letter:
http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/BATFE-AMD-65-Manufacture-Marking-2004-11-09.pdf

Hopefully this clears much of this area up.

-Gene

pbrand
02-12-2008, 8:46 PM
Great write up, thanks for the information!

hoffmang
02-12-2008, 9:17 PM
To clarify my point 7 above a bit, everyone should read through this thread: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=84417

-Gene

RossRinSD
02-12-2008, 9:17 PM
that answers some questions for me...

The AK parts kits don't come with a FA fire group do they??

I was working on that 922r checklist
http://thegunwiki.com/Gunwiki/BuildAkVerifyCompliance

I was going to use my current FCG to save a few bucks since I need a US made magazine and furniture. I just assumed they were SA...

hoffmang
02-12-2008, 9:19 PM
Ross,

We posted at the same time so you may want to review my post above yours.

-Gene

ptoguy2002
02-12-2008, 9:26 PM
Thanks Gene.
Wow, you are right, a "zip gun" has a very broad definition
It pretty much covers just about everything.

redneckshootist
02-12-2008, 9:29 PM
that answers some questions for me...

The AK parts kits don't come with a FA fire group do they??

I was working on that 922r checklist
http://thegunwiki.com/Gunwiki/BuildAkVerifyCompliance

I was going to use my current FCG to save a few bucks since I need a US made magazine and furniture. I just assumed they were SA...

ross I purchaced three kits all from gunbroker, didnt buy them from any big vendors. all three kits came with the full auto parts. as soon as I saw them I cut them up with a torch. I think it depends on who you buy it from some do some dont.

adamsreeftank
02-12-2008, 9:31 PM
If you recommend a serial number and a location, what about a manufacutrer name. IE GH-Arms. Would that be neccessary or helpful?

hoffmang
02-12-2008, 9:41 PM
Looking more closely at 27 CFR 478.92 (http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/05dec20031700/edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2003/aprqtr/pdf/27cfr478.92.pdf) you need to place your name, caliber, serial number and manufacturing location on any firearm you wish to be able to sell. A model designation appears optional.

-Gene

oaklander
02-12-2008, 9:47 PM
Thanks for the post, Gene!

:D

Good info - especially for the flat-benders out there!

m24armorer
02-12-2008, 9:48 PM
478.92 is for 07 FFL's.

I do recommend for home builds:
Caliber: Whatever it is.
Make: HB and your last name.
Model: Your choice.
And some serial number. Do not use your DL or SSN.

hoffmang
02-12-2008, 10:07 PM
The ATF letter I posted above refers to 478.92 for the marking requirements necessary for later transfer of a homebuilt firearm.

-Gene

m24armorer
02-12-2008, 10:17 PM
ß 478.92 How must licensed manufacturers
and licensed importers identify
firearms, armor piercing ammunition,
and large capacity ammunition
feeding devices?


Funny, this has not been updated from 2004.

m24armorer
02-12-2008, 10:20 PM
Gene,not butting heads with you....

m24armorer
02-12-2008, 10:28 PM
Gee, butter my buns and call me a biscuit! My un messed with ATF regs book confirms what you speak. And then it gets smoke and mirrors.

my bad......

hoffmang
02-12-2008, 10:29 PM
Funny, this has not been updated from 2004.

FYI - the letter I posted above was only my quick and cursory research on ATF guidance. Let me dig a little more and see if there is anything newer.

Either way, the section quoted is certainly safe guidance for home built markings should someone want to be able to sell a home built firearm months or years after building it.

-Gene

rue
02-12-2008, 11:10 PM
For serial number suggests I liked what another member posted recently,
"FU-CADOJ"
That's awesome

hoffmang
02-12-2008, 11:21 PM
Please also remember that there are a few build issues beyond the ones I've outlined above but I didn't mention them as I'm pretty sure that people going down this path understand them. I'm particularly thinking of the US parts/922(r) issues, 12276.1 features issues, and AW/semiautomatic overall length issues.

-Gene

FEDUPWBS
02-13-2008, 3:42 AM
STICKY THIS NOW!!

Cali-V
02-13-2008, 6:04 AM
Gene
Thanks for the research...

+ on the sticky post thing

JeffM
02-13-2008, 6:16 AM
Thanks for the write up here Gene, definitely should be a sticky.

Prc329
02-15-2008, 6:36 AM
Should the part be engraved before or after finishing? Say taking an 80% lower. Should I have it engraved before i finish it or after it is 100%?

socalguns
02-16-2008, 1:15 AM
makes no difference, although you should engrave it before finishing :D (paint job)

hoffmang
02-16-2008, 9:58 AM
The only place you will want to make sure that the unbent flat is marked before building is if/when you're building a pistol.

-Gene

thedrickel
02-16-2008, 10:32 AM
Also, you will want to mark your flat as a pistol before acquiring any <16" barrels.

Don't believe any vendors that say "The FA parts are not included in these kits, they were removed by the importer" or "They come with some funky trigger group, we don't know what it is, but it's not the FA parts" :rolleyes:

If you believe that, I have some Chinese food w/o MSG to sell you, and maybe a bridge or two.

Prc329
02-16-2008, 7:35 PM
The only place you will want to make sure that the unbent flat is marked before building is if/when you're building a pistol.

-Gene

O.K. so since my 80% will be a pistol I should engrave it first.

oaklander
02-16-2008, 7:58 PM
See also:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=83394

Utha Schleigle
02-18-2008, 9:07 PM
Just for my info - what are the drawbacks my CA Driver License # and a following #. Any police officer could run my CA DRL# with out warrant or permission like a SS#. Say stamp CA DRL # N******* -01 for the firearm - then date of mfg 02-2007 and the original Commie # - 1982 AS 23*** and of coarse US MADE.

If the officer finds it in the car of some hood - the officer could run my # instantly and give the gun theif a rashon of DOO DOO. IF I am going to the range my # is in the gun witch the LEO could run at his car to revify.

I was also thinking of burning the # into the metal say .50mm to 1mm deep with the heat treating process in a spot that if the metal was ground away it would ruin the part and gun.

MrBurritoMan
09-23-2008, 11:47 PM
so, just to ask a silly question. does this also work for other firearms that one would/could build at home.

say a 80% 1911a1?

i wrote the DoJ and am still waiting for something back however i am always looking for more information.

fpasuncion
12-01-2008, 9:05 PM
and when building an AK pistol on a blank...922 compliance does not need to be followed

hoffmang
12-01-2008, 9:39 PM
and when building an AK pistol on a blank...922 compliance does not need to be followed

That may be true, but could you walk us through your Federal legal reasoning on that?

-Gene

oaklander
12-01-2008, 9:43 PM
If he's referring to 922(r) - here's the statute:

(r) It shall be unlawful for any person to assemble from imported parts any semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun which is identical to any rifle or shotgun prohibited from importation under section 925 (d)(3) of this chapter as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes except that this subsection shall not apply to—
(1) the assembly of any such rifle or shotgun for sale or distribution by a licensed manufacturer to the United States or any department or agency thereof or to any State or any department, agency, or political subdivision thereof; or
(2) the assembly of any such rifle or shotgun for the purposes of testing or experimentation authorized by the Attorney General.

Not sure if he's referring to other parts of 922.

That may be true, but could you walk us through your Federal legal reasoning on that?

-Gene

JeffM
12-01-2008, 9:47 PM
That may be true, but could you walk us through your Federal legal reasoning on that?

-Gene

LOL

That (r) [or lack there of] can make a big difference!

fpasuncion
12-02-2008, 11:16 AM
thanks, oaklander...that's what i was referring to. 922 refers only to rifle and shotgun and does not specifically mentions pistols

AaronHorrocks
12-10-2008, 10:08 AM
Would an AK pistol even have 10 countable parts?

ke6guj
12-10-2008, 11:03 AM
Yes it would. An AK pistol only has one less counted part, the shoulder stock.

AaronHorrocks
12-10-2008, 12:01 PM
That'd be one front-end heavy pistol!

Post 88
06-30-2009, 11:46 AM
Hi Gene,

Can I copy the serial # of the part kit to put it on my home build AK receiver not for sale?

hoffmang
06-30-2009, 1:02 PM
Can I copy the serial # of the part kit to put it on my home build AK receiver not for sale?

As long as you identify yourself as the manufacturer and the actual manufactured location, yes.

-Gene

Post 88
06-30-2009, 1:14 PM
Gene,

Thanks for quick response!

technique
07-16-2009, 3:45 AM
I have a question...

whats this all about?


-the machinegun scar pin hole and the slotted right receiver rail must be removed-

ke6guj
07-16-2009, 11:33 AM
IIRC, the right side bolt guide rail on a full-auto AK is slotted for the sear to pass through it.

technique
07-16-2009, 11:57 AM
IIRC, the right side bolt guide rail on a full-auto AK is slotted for the sear to pass through it.

Is that illegal to use? A lot of people have Virgin kits that might come with those. I have not seen it brought up. I have only seen Oaklanders post on FCG parts.

ke6guj
07-16-2009, 12:08 PM
Is that illegal to use? A lot of people have Virgin kits that might come with those. I have not seen it brought up. I have only seen Oaklanders post on FCG parts.

Based on that letter, I wouldn't use a slotted rail. I didn't realize that the virgin kits came with them. It may not have been mentioned by guys like Oaklander since the majority of people use demilled kits, in which the slot rail isn't included, and maybe they didn't even know that virgin kits included it.

I'd suggest doing some searches on some of the AK-centric forums to see what they say about using slotted rails in semi-auto builds.

technique
07-16-2009, 12:35 PM
I am going to be researching this more. That letter was the first time I had seen anything about the rails being brought up.

and now for those as curious as I....a visual.
http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll42/technique408/zrailsak002.jpg

The lighter colored parts are AK builder...the darker, factory Yugo.

technique
10-13-2009, 6:52 PM
Looking more closely at 27 CFR 478.92 (http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/05dec20031700/edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2003/aprqtr/pdf/27cfr478.92.pdf) you need to place your name, caliber, serial number and manufacturing location on any firearm you wish to be able to sell. A model designation appears optional.

-Gene

Link is no longer active....

Cali-V
10-13-2009, 6:59 PM
Just Goo "27 CFR 478.92"

ke6guj
10-13-2009, 7:22 PM
http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2008/aprqtr/27cfr478.92.htm
note that even though it only refers to "licensed manufacturer or licensed importer of firearms", ATF has the opinion that it applies even for homebuilt firearms by non-licensees.

technique
10-13-2009, 7:42 PM
http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2008/aprqtr/27cfr478.92.htm
note that even though it only refers to "licensed manufacturer or licensed importer of firearms", ATF has the opinion that it applies even for homebuilt firearms by non-licensees.

Gotcha...I am having a hard time convincing a few folks...I actually even included ^that^ in my post, but some people are still convinced that one can not sell a home built firearm....Even with supporting letters from the ATF on the subject...

I think they just don't understand the "mfg with *intent* to sell", as where you are required by law to have a mfg license/FFL 07.

They seem to be convinced that at NO point are you allowed to sell a homebuilt firearm...I have provided all the resources I can on the subject to support my claim the YES in fact you can legally sell a homebuilt firearm, and in doing so you need to follow the same rules as an FFL 07 at that point (engraving and such)...so long as you did not build it with the specific intent of selling there after....

Some people act like this is a new concept or something.

TURBOELKY
11-30-2009, 10:11 PM
This is a GREAT thread. Only thing I CANT find, is any legal language mentioning building a receiver from a "flat" and especially building an "ak style" pistol. Hope that makes sense? Just trying CMA with printed laws to keep in my case.

heist1
12-24-2009, 10:32 AM
I'm intrested in bulding a rifle from a flat..I've heard of build partys does any one know of any? Or where to get a good flat?

heist1
12-24-2009, 10:35 AM
I'm looking to build a rifle from a flat..I've heard of build partys from a kid at a local sacramento show.. does any one know of these get togethers? Any one know where to get a good flat or pre- bent? I'm in sacramento...thank you for any info...

fireman323
12-27-2009, 12:45 PM
How many "firearms" can you home build. I.E. 1 ar, 1 1911, 1 ak Etc...

CSACANNONEER
12-27-2009, 12:53 PM
I'm intrested in bulding a rifle from a flat..I've heard of build partys does any one know of any? Or where to get a good flat?

I'm a little far from you but, I am planning on hosting another BP in a couple of months.

How many "firearms" can you home build. I.E. 1 ar, 1 1911, 1 ak Etc...

How many would you like to build? There is no limit on the number of firearms you can build for personal use.

Born2Lose
12-31-2009, 3:31 PM
I need a link or number of the actual code that says its ok for me as a non felonious citizen to build my own mac-11, AK, FAL, etc. and that i don't need to put any markings on it (i don't sell guns..only buy them). Maybe even an ATF letter or two. I'd like to print it out and keep it in the case with my new MAC i'm building. I'll probably also include copies of receipts for the various parts kits i bought to build it. Don't want Barney Fife thinking i filed off the markings or something stupid.

Thanks.

P.S. The letter in the first post is good but i'd like more back up on the issue.

ke6guj
12-31-2009, 3:37 PM
There is no Penal code that says it is ok for you to build your own firearms. The PC doesn't work that way, everything is legal unless specifically prohibited.

Same thing with required markings, there is no PC that states that a homebuilder must mark a firearm. The law does require licensed manufacturers to mark the firearms that they make, but it does not require the same of non-licensees.

Born2Lose
12-31-2009, 3:54 PM
Ok thanks. So then the best thing would be to print some ATF letters that show its not illegal for my own peace of mind.
I see a lot of mentions of rifles and shotguns but not much being said on Pistols..why is that?
Also found the Firearms FAQ at the new ATF website.
Enjoy!
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/firearms-technology.html#commercial-parts-assembly

Also found this..its specifically deals with building firearms in CA.
http://savvysurvivor.com.cnchost.com/law_research_on_home_built_firea.htm

iRIGHTi
01-05-2010, 12:42 PM
so if i wanted to sell in a ppt a homebuilt ak pistol, i would need to mark them,

name,
serial #
city/state of mfg
caliber

that's it right?

lekcin
06-03-2010, 6:31 PM
I am new to Calguns.net. Found you while searching for info on building HK91/MP5 from flats. I wolud like to know a source for parts kits for both if available. I have a source for flats but if I cannot locate the parts kits they are useless. Also does anyone know the current skinny on when a flat becomes a firearm and the folded flat machinegun vs. semi-auto issue?
Thanks

santamonica9
06-21-2010, 9:28 AM
great sticky - Thank you HoffmanG

choprzrul
06-22-2010, 9:35 PM
If I put a serial number, place of manufacture, and a model #; would this not imply manufacture with intent to sell? I am thinking that leaving the receiver blank would indicate intent for personal use only. That or something like "Manufactured under Gun Control Act (GCA) of 1968, 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44 for personal use only" etched on receiver. Should/would this pass LEO scrutiny in an eCheck situation?

ke6guj
06-22-2010, 11:29 PM
If I put a serial number, place of manufacture, and a model #; would this not imply manufacture with intent to sell? I am thinking that leaving the receiver blank would indicate intent for personal use only.or, it could imply that you would wish to have some sort of identification on the firearm in case it was stolen.

That or something like "Manufactured under Gun Control Act (GCA) of 1968, 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44 for personal use only" etched on receiver. Should/would this pass LEO scrutiny in an eCheck situationyour choice.

AngryPossum
10-15-2010, 10:11 AM
The question of "do I have to put a serial number" on my home built AK or other firearm has been coming up a lot recently.

Here is the law as I understand it with support below:

1. It is not required that you put the build location or a serial number on a firearm that you build at home.

2. You can not build a firearm at home with the intent to immediately sell it.

3. Prudence may dictate that you do want to place a serial number on the firearm as LEOs may not understand and think that you have obliterated a serial number which is illegal under both Federal and California law. I recommend your initials and a number - something like Redwood City, CA - GH-0001.

4. If years later you decide you want to sell your homebuilt rifle to someone else, you can, but it will require that it have a serial number and place of manufacture per Federal law.

5. Please be careful about the California definition of "zip gun" in PC 12020 (http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/dwcl/12020.htm). Building a firearm that is the same design as a firearm that has been or is being sold commercially is safe but there are large and dangerous grey areas for designs that are not already in commerce. Building an AK, FAL, or AR is not a problem under the zip gun definition however.

6. DOJ BoF has opined that private individuals can manufacture non rostered handguns. However, I'm not 100% confident of their legal reasoning so do be careful in that arena.

7. Always be mindful that constructive possession does apply to machine gun parts. Never have a receiver that can accept FA FCGs and generally don't have FA FCG parts around period. Searching the forum will give you more information that at least one Calgunner has gotten into Federal hot water over FA fire control parts.

For clarification on the serial number issue please refer to this ATF letter:
http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/BATFE-AMD-65-Manufacture-Marking-2004-11-09.pdf

Hopefully this clears much of this area up.

-Gene

Does anyone have copies of letters like this with responses from CA DOJ? I'm trying to convince my father why home built AK's don't need a serial number. After this letter he believes me that may be true federally, but He still doesn't believe it is possible in California. Any help on specific letters/documents or CA Law?

bplvr
12-19-2010, 6:03 PM
Does the name stamped on the build HAVE to be a person ,or could it be a corporation {LLC}?

JagerTroop
12-19-2010, 8:12 PM
Does the name stamped on the build HAVE to be a person ,or could it be a corporation {LLC}?

There is no requirement to mark your homebuilt firearms, however, if you ever want to sell it, it must be marked.

With that said, the "Manufacturer" or "Make" of the gun can be whatever you want to name it. It doesn't have to be your name, your business (unless you are a licensed manufacturer).

You can label it:

Bad MoFo Arms, Pretty Pink Pony mfg, Rainbow Ordnance Co., whatever you want ;)

Rust
02-04-2011, 8:53 AM
What is the appropriate depth for the numbers etc. to be engraved to? Only thing I've seen is .003" deep or 1/16" high, but the post was several years old and mentioned ATF changing those dimension at their whim. Also any specific CA requirements in that regard or just the ATF?

G1500
04-07-2011, 9:08 PM
What is the appropriate depth for the numbers etc. to be engraved to? Only thing I've seen is .003" deep or 1/16" high, but the post was several years old and mentioned ATF changing those dimension at their whim. Also any specific CA requirements in that regard or just the ATF?

Bump for any information about this.

Roccobro
04-09-2011, 10:58 PM
[Code of Federal Regulations]
[Title 27, Volume 2]
[Revised as of April 1, 2003]
From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access
[CITE: 27CFR479.102]
[Page 188-189]
TITLE 27--ALCOHOL, TOBACCO PRODUCTS AND FIREARMS
CHAPTER II--BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS, AND EXPLOSIVES,
DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
PART 479--MACHINE GUNS, DESTRUCTIVE DEVICES, AND CERTAIN OTHER FIREARMS--Table of Contents
Subpart G--Registration and Identification of Firearms
Sec. 479.102 How must firearms be identified?
(a) You, as a manufacturer, importer, or maker of a firearm, must
legibly identify the firearm as follows:
(1) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise
conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped
(impressed) or placed on the frame or receiver thereof an individual
serial number. The serial number must be placed in a manner not
susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed, and must
not duplicate any serial number placed by you on any other firearm. For
firearms manufactured, imported, or made on and after January 30, 2002,
the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of the serial number
must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size no smaller
than 1/16 inch; and
(2) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise
conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped
(impressed), or placed on the frame, receiver, or barrel thereof certain
additional information. This information must be placed in a manner not
susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered or removed. For
firearms manufactured, imported, or made on and after January 30, 2002,
the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of this information
must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch. The additional information
includes:
(i) The model, if such designation has been made;
(ii) The caliber or gauge;
(iii) Your name (or recognized abbreviation) and also, when
applicable, the name of the foreign manufacturer or maker;
(iv) In the case of a domestically made firearm, the city and State
(or recognized abbreviation thereof) where you as the manufacturer
maintain your place of business, or where you, as the maker, made the
firearm; and
[[Page 189]]
(v) In the case of an imported firearm, the name of the country in
which it was manufactured and the city and State (or recognized
abbreviation thereof) where you as the importer maintain your place of
business. For additional requirements relating to imported firearms, see
Customs regulations at 19 CFR part 134.
(b) The depth of all markings required by this section will be
measured from the flat surface of the metal and not the peaks or ridges.
The height of serial numbers required by paragraph (a)(1) of this
section will be measured as the distance between the latitudinal ends of
the character impression bottoms (bases).
(c) The Director may authorize other means of identification upon
receipt of a letter application from you, submitted in duplicate,
showing that such other identification is reasonable and will not hinder
the effective administration of this part.
(d) In the case of a destructive device, the Director may authorize
other means of identifying that weapon upon receipt of a letter
application from you, submitted in duplicate, showing that engraving,
casting, or stamping (impressing) such a weapon would be dangerous or
impracticable.
(e) A firearm frame or receiver that is not a component part of a
complete weapon at the time it is sold, shipped, or otherwise disposed
of by you must be identified as required by this section.
(f)(1) Any part defined as a machine gun, muffler, or silencer for
the purposes of this part that is not a component part of a complete
firearm at the time it is sold, shipped, or otherwise disposed of by you
must be identified as required by this section.
(2) The Director may authorize other means of identification of
parts defined as machine guns other than frames or receivers and parts
defined as mufflers or silencers upon receipt of a letter application
from you, submitted in duplicate, showing that such other identification
is reasonable and will not hinder the effective administration of this
part.


as a note, the ATF NFA Handbook is available HERE, the issue is addressed in chapter 6 and 7...marking requirements are the same for both licensees and nonlicensees who manufacture a NFA firearm.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/nfa/nfa_handbook/

the ATF currently has this in thier regulations book under Chaper 7 "Manufacturing of NFA Firearms"

Section 7.4 The identification of firearms.

7.4.1 Serial numbers.
Each manufacturer of a firearm must legibly identify it by engraving, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing on the firearm’s frame or receiver an individual serial number not duplicating any serial number placed by the manufacturer on any other firearm.120

The requirement that the marking be “conspicuously” placed on the firearm means that the marking must be
wholly unobstructed from plain view.

For firearms manufactured on or after January 30, 2002, the serial number must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size no smaller than 1/16 inch.

7.4.1.1 What is an acceptable serial number?

Alpha characters (letters), for example a name,
are not acceptable as a serial number. A proper serial number may contain such characters or
letters, but it must have at least one numeric character (number).

ATF takes the view that marking “legibly” means using exclusively Roman letters (A, B, C, and so forth) and Arabic numerals (1, 2, 3, and so forth).121

Deviations from this requirement have been found to
seriously impair ATF’s ability to trace firearms involved in crime.

7.4.2 Additional information.

Certain additional information must also be conspicuously placed on the frame, receiver, or barrel of the firearm by engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), that is, they must be placed in such a manner that they are wholly unobstructed from plain view.

For firearms manufactured on or after January 30, 2002, this information must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch.
The additional information includes:
(1) The model, if such designation has been made;
(2) The caliber or gauge;
(3) The manufacturer’s name (or recognized abbreviation); and
(4) The city and State (or recognized abbreviation) where the manufacturer maintains its place
of business.122

7.4.3 Measuring the depth of markings. The depth of all markings is measured from the flat surface
of the metal and not the peaks or ridges. The height of serial numbers is measured as the distance
between the latitudinal ends of the character impression bottoms (bases).

Rust
04-13-2011, 5:51 AM
Thanks Roccobro that's what I was after.

Alex$
04-20-2011, 12:09 PM
This may seem rather a basic question, but since the margin for error is pretty steep I thought it should not go unasked.

Choosing to mark a home made AKM pattern rifle, is the following acceptable/defensible?

ROM AK
7.62X39
ZYX001
Hometown, CA

(where ZYX = initials)

More specifically asked: Do I have to add "model", "caliber", "serial no." etc.?

Common sense would dictate that it can be inferred by the markings, but is required to be spelled out?

MyMalteseFalcon
05-05-2011, 3:11 AM
I just recently did my first AK build with the help of a great guy here on the forum.

When asked what I wanted stamped on the receiver, I said I don't want anything stamped on it...only stamping on the receiver are the markings for safe, fire and FA.

The piece is NOT FA...just to clear that point up.

Now I realize I was wrong and should of had something on there.

At this point what should I do re some sort of #'s or initials on it?

Where also should these ID marks be placed so as to be noticed?

OR is it really necessary to mark some sort of ID markings on there at all?

I really want to be in compliance with the law.

I'm collecting parts for a future build and want to do it right the next time around.

Any advice and or suggestions are more then welcome...

Thanks!

ke6guj
05-05-2011, 10:02 AM
Now I realize I was wrong and should of had something on there.

At this point what should I do re some sort of #'s or initials on it? only if you want to. There is no requirement that you mark a non-NFA homemade firearm. Some people voluntarily mark, others don't.

Where also should these ID marks be placed so as to be noticed?ATF says that any required marks must be placed in a conspicuous location, so no putting it under the pistol grip, etc.


OR is it really necessary to mark some sort of ID markings on there at all?

I really want to be in compliance with the law.
it isn't necessary to mark. you are in compliance with an unmarked homebuilt firearm.

Now, I personally mark everything with a serial number, but don't bother with the Name, City, State markings.

MyMalteseFalcon
05-05-2011, 10:25 AM
Thank for the info, I kinda figured as much. But I wasn't sure how to go about the next one. Perhaps the next build will have my date of birth on there, or some such thing.

I don't ever plan on selling any of my guns, did that once due to divorce and sorely regret letting go of some excellent collector pieces. Live and learn is the motto in life...

Thanks for the info...

:mnl:

CSACANNONEER
05-05-2011, 11:04 AM
I really want to be in compliance with the law.

I'm collecting parts for a future build and want to do it right the next time around.

Any advice and or suggestions are more then welcome...

Thanks!

I've never marked any of my homebuilt guns with anything more than F'ups from me. It is 100% legal to not have any markings at all. However, if you want to mark it, I suggest marking it to ATF standards. There are both size and depth requirements as well as what info is required to be there if you end up transfering it to someone else.

MyMalteseFalcon
05-05-2011, 1:30 PM
My next question may seem over kill on my knowledge on the 922r compliance parts list. The following list is what I have on my build. There's no pistol grip at the moment, as I have it in a rifle configuration, but I do have one for it. Also, even though I know I don't need to have one on there, is a Solar Tech BB.

Receiver
Barrel
Gas piston
Trigger
Hammer
Sear
Disconnector
Butt stock
Fore grip
Magazine, floor plate, and follower.


In total it's 12 parts that I've got. Is it six (6) parts to make it all 922r?

Would big brother really take a count on how many there are?

Or are they making us whistle Dixie?

Domingo
05-05-2011, 2:06 PM
Im building an ak pistol and I wanted to know if their was
someone can engrave the bay area or how have some of you have done it

CSACANNONEER
05-05-2011, 2:25 PM
My next question may seem over kill on my knowledge on the 922r compliance parts list. The following list is what I have on my build. There's no pistol grip at the moment, as I have it in a rifle configuration, but I do have one for it. Also, even though I know I don't need to have one on there, is a Solar Tech BB.

Receiver
Barrel
Gas piston
Trigger
Hammer
Sear
Disconnector
Butt stock
Fore grip
Magazine, floor plate, and follower.


In total it's 12 parts that I've got. Is it six (6) parts to make it all 922r?

Would big brother really take a count on how many there are?

Or are they making us whistle Dixie?

You can thank Clinton for the 922(r) thing. 922(r) was intended to keep people (companies) from importing parts for long guns which were no longer importable and just building them again. We should really feel lucky that the law allows for as many as 10 imported parts per long gun. It doesn't matter how many US made parts are on your gun just as long as it only has 10 or less imported parts. By removing the PG and muzzle attachment and putting nothing in their places, you need two less US made parts. Get it?

Putting a ST BB or any other mag lock on a featureless rifle is really just plain STUPID. Having a mag lock on the gun means that you are stuck using 10 round or less mags. Having a featureless build lets you use any mag you want and you can drop them without a tool. Yea, the law doesn't make any sense but, antis aren't the brightest people in the first place.

AKbuilder
06-14-2011, 6:55 PM
^^SO you don't have to put a mag lock on in Cali? Cause i was told otherwise.

ke6guj
06-14-2011, 6:59 PM
key word in the above post is "featureless". No, you don't need a maglock on a featureless semi-auto centerfire rifle.

Cali-V
06-14-2011, 8:13 PM
Im building an ak pistol and I wanted to know if their was
someone can engrave the bay area or how have some of you have done it

Here you go...

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=5210158&postcount=1
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=4488583&postcount=1
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=946290&postcount=2
https://calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=6090183&postcount=772

Next time I see you I'll show you some other stuff...

Ford8N
06-18-2011, 4:24 AM
You can thank Clinton for the 922(r) thing. 922(r) was intended to keep people (companies) from importing parts for long guns which were no longer importable and just building them again. We should really feel lucky that the law allows for as many as 10 imported parts per long gun. It doesn't matter how many US made parts are on your gun just as long as it only has 10 or less imported parts. By removing the PG and muzzle attachment and putting nothing in their places, you need two less US made parts. Get it?



This law is low hanging fruit and could easily be picked off. It could be modified to make an exception for the home builder or totally killed by attaching to some must pass legislation. I just wish the NRA would get on the ball.

semperfidelis354
07-27-2011, 1:44 PM
I had sent an email to the ATF on this matter just to have clarification on the laws. as well if I chose not to put markings on a fire arm that wont every be sold was it a problem. here is the result of my inquiry:

This correspondence is in response to your recent inquiry emailed to the
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) concerning
marking of firearms manufactured for personal use.

As you may know, a significant part of the Federal firearms law
provisions concerns the requirements pertaining to the manufacture,
importation, distribution, possession, and sale of firearms. Under
Federal law, an unlicensed individual may make a "firearm." The term
"firearm" includes the following:
... (A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed
to or may be readily converted to expel a projectile by the action of an
explosive: (B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon; (C) any firearm
muffler or silencer; or (D) any destructive device. Such term does not
include an antique firearm.

We suggest that you at least identify the firearm with a serial number
as a safeguard in the event that the firearm is lost or stolen. Also,
the firearm should be identified as required in 27 CFR 478.92 if it is
lawfully transferred to another person in the future. Additional
information concerning unlicensed persons is available at:
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicensed-persons.html. Please note
that depending on the extent of your manufacturing activities you might
need to apply for a Federal firearms license (FFL). Information on how
to become an FFL is available at:
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/how-to/become-an-ffl.html.

Also, ATF does not have jurisdiction over State laws. You should also
contact your local law enforcement agency and/or State Attorney General
to inquire about local or State requirements that may apply to firearms
manufactured for personal use. A listing of the State Attorney
general's offices is available online at www.naag.org.

We trust this correspondence has been responsive to your inquiry.
Should you have any further questions, please feel free to contact your
local ATF Industry Operations Office. A list of ATF Office telephone
numbers can be found at http://www.atf.gov/field.

Regards,

Firearms Industry Programs Branch, ATF
- Show quoted text -

hopefully this helps as well. or maybe the point has been beaten to death. whatever...

Arisaka
07-27-2011, 3:41 PM
I can make a silencer?! Damn that's awesome. So, in a free state, you just apply for the stamp, build it, and you're good to go?.....

CSACANNONEER
07-27-2011, 3:45 PM
I can make a silencer?! Damn that's awesome. So, in a free state, you just apply for the stamp, build it, and you're good to go?.....

Yep. But for a couple hundred dollars for a proffessionally designed and built one, it's normally better to purchase one.

Arisaka
07-29-2011, 10:05 AM
What a cool project that would be though. If it works, you have a supressor for $200+materials and you are a bona fide badass!

VaderSpade
11-14-2011, 7:47 AM
I have seen minimum and maximum lengths for homebuilt pistols (both overall and barrel lengths) talked about in several threads, but I can’t find them now.

Does anyone have this information handy?

ke6guj
11-14-2011, 1:15 PM
I have seen minimum and maximum lengths for homebuilt pistols (both overall and barrel lengths) talked about in several threads, but I canít find them now.

Does anyone have this information handy?

initial minimum length,
12133(b) The provisions of this chapter shall not apply to a single-shot pistol with a barrel length of not less than six inches and that has an overall length of at least 10 1/2 inches when the handle, frame or receiver, and barrel are assembled.

maximum length, otherwise it might not be considered a pistol anymore,
12001. (a)(1) As used in this title, the terms "pistol," "revolver," and "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person" shall apply to and include any device designed to be used as a weapon, from which is expelled a projectile by the force of any explosion, or other form of combustion, and that has a barrel less than 16 inches in length. These terms also include any device that has a barrel 16 inches or more in length which is designed to be interchanged with a barrel less than 16 inches in length.

swift
12-01-2011, 6:14 PM
I didn't get useful answers in my other post, so I'll try here.

I don't plan to sell a home-built pistol, but I expect a child to inherit it sometime. Presumably the heir would need to register it, so it would need a serial number. Would my initials be a sufficient identifier for the manufacturer or would I need to engrave my last name?

Alex$
12-01-2011, 6:24 PM
Just my opinion as builder, and i asked earlier in this thread...

I think initials are enough

MyMalteseFalcon
12-02-2011, 12:08 AM
Thats what I was told a while back, when I was doing my first build.

As long as you have something to identify it as yours. Some guys put initials, DL # (that one I am dead against) and other markings. Myself, I would just put the last four of my Social Security #. And that's what I plan on doing with my next build.

What a better way to say it's mine with something that personal...

:mnl:

ATS76
01-03-2012, 9:06 AM
Happy New Year!

Can someone not prohibited from owning firearms build a single shot handgun from an 80% receiver? If yes, should he register the gun with CA from FD4542A and pay $19?

Thanks.

ke6guj
01-03-2012, 9:10 AM
Happy New Year!

Can someone not prohibited from owning firearms build a single shot handgun from an 80% receiver? If yes, should he register the gun with CA from FD4542A and pay $19?

Thanks.

answered in the other thread where you posted the same question.

wizdumb
03-06-2012, 1:00 AM
Related to this topic, how would I go about stamping my own serial number into an AK flat before bending/welding/torching/coating? I know Harbor Freight carries letter punches, but I'm not sure if they're rated for this type of steel. I'd rather punch the number for that "professional look" rather than hand-engraving with a dremel.

SoCalMechanic
03-22-2012, 7:30 AM
I bought the punches I used from michaels. 1/16 for location and first part of serial number as well as city and state, and 1/4" for all actual numbers. I got a numbers matching parts kit, so I used the four digit serial number it had with my initials. Now everything should match and be pretty easy to id. It looks alright, and I can send you a picture if you want.

bplvr
03-22-2012, 9:44 AM
I got some 1/8" punches from Utopia Tools {San Clemente}
They do a lot of the gun shows and have a LOT of tables.
The punches were inexpensive and are holding up really well.
They are the ones in a red plastic box.

RippSpeed
05-24-2012, 8:45 AM
can you guys point or show me the laws on manufacturing a pistol frame (like 1911) for my own use ???

or is home made firearms only good for long guns ???

thing is I can use a cnc mil to fabricate my own 1911 and 2011 frames and since we cannot buy them new here ( unless ppt) I was trying to see if its possible and legal. To machine a frame myself...

Roccobro
05-24-2012, 9:07 PM
can you guys point or show me the laws on manufacturing a pistol frame (like 1911) for my own use ???

or is home made firearms only good for long guns ???

thing is I can use a cnc mil to fabricate my own 1911 and 2011 frames and since we cannot buy them new here ( unless ppt) I was trying to see if its possible and legal. To machine a frame myself...

Just like a rifle, totally legal. People are buy and machining 1911 80% paperweights into firearms for the reasons you mention.

Laws don't tell you what you CAN do, they tell you what you CANNOT do. Unless expressly prohibited by law, it is still our god given right to do what we want to. (for now)

Justin

1JimMarch
07-14-2012, 12:02 AM
Gene, how do these rules affect a home-MODIFIED gun?

I'm right now building the pieces needed to make major changes to my Ruger New Vaquero. Right now it's a 357Magnum, marked as such with the factory SN.

When the conversion is done it will be permanently changed to a 9mmPara, with a replacement cylinder and a true .355 barrel. (Plus magazine feeding and gas ejection of empties.)

My understanding is that any permanent caliber change of this nature would require a professional gunsmith to have a handgun manufacturer's licence and re-mark the gun in question at least as to caliber, and a lot of these guys like Gary Reeder also put a new serial number on. At that point the gun is legally no longer a "Ruger", it's a "Gary Reeder" somethingorother.

I also recall that a bunch of gunsmiths doing caliber conversions were busted by ATF some years back, in a sort of sweep.

So...am I going to end up in a position where I need to at a minimum scratch out "357" and put in "9mm Para"?

glane5910
09-13-2012, 8:23 AM
The way I'm reading it, federal law says that ALL firearms shall have a serial number if manufactured after 1968. If the weapon is a manufactured at home type, the ATF will issue a serial number for it but you have to apply for it. I am an FFL holder and questioned an ATF field agent about this.

glane5910
09-13-2012, 8:27 AM
Gene, how do these rules affect a home-MODIFIED gun?

I'm right now building the pieces needed to make major changes to my Ruger New Vaquero. Right now it's a 357Magnum, marked as such with the factory SN.

When the conversion is done it will be permanently changed to a 9mmPara, with a replacement cylinder and a true .355 barrel. (Plus magazine feeding and gas ejection of empties.)

My understanding is that any permanent caliber change of this nature would require a professional gunsmith to have a handgun manufacturer's licence and re-mark the gun in question at least as to caliber, and a lot of these guys like Gary Reeder also put a new serial number on. At that point the gun is legally no longer a "Ruger", it's a "Gary Reeder" somethingorother.

I also recall that a bunch of gunsmiths doing caliber conversions were busted by ATF some years back, in a sort of sweep.

So...am I going to end up in a position where I need to at a minimum scratch out "357" and put in "9mm Para"?

The current ATF policy would say its a new manufacture but I don't know if you'd have to change the serial number. In fact it is illegal to do anything with the serial number that's on it. Call DOJ and ask.

glane5910
09-13-2012, 8:29 AM
There is no legal requirement that I'm aware of to put the caliber on the barrel. That's more of a liability issue. Lothar Walther doesn't stamp the caliber on their finished barrels.

VaderSpade
09-13-2012, 8:32 AM
Please post the law and where you are getting your information.

I believe you are reading about what is required for "manufactures" with FFL's???

The way I'm reading it, federal law says that ALL firearms shall have a serial number if manufactured after 1968. If the weapon is a manufactured at home type, the ATF will issue a serial number for it but you have to apply for it. I am an FFL holder and questioned an ATF field agent about this.

ke6guj
09-13-2012, 8:34 AM
The way I'm reading it, federal law says that ALL firearms shall have a serial number if manufactured after 1968. ALL firearms made by a license manufacturer.

The CGA requirement for markings does not apply to non-licensees.



If the weapon is a manufactured at home type, the ATF will issue a serial number for it but you have to apply for it.what form do you use to request this ATF issued serial number?

I am an FFL holder and questioned an ATF field agent about this.do you have this in writing? Even field agents will misquote the law, expecially when asked verbally. When a written request is made, they seem to be more accurate in what the law actually says.

glane5910
09-13-2012, 8:35 AM
Please post the law and where you are getting your information.

I believe you are reading about what is required for "manufactures" with FFL's???

I'll dig out the Fed regs and post. You are manufacturing a firearm regardless where you build it. You aren't required to pay excise tax unless you build 51 weapons per year.

glane5910
09-13-2012, 8:40 AM
ALL firearms made by a license manufacturer.

The CGA requirement for markings does not apply to non-licensees.


what form do you use to request this ATF issued serial number?

do you have this in writing? Even field agents will misquote the law, expecially when asked verbally. When a written request is made, they seem to be more accurate in what the law actually says.

I doubt you'll get any field agent to put anything "in writing". Application
ATF F 1 (5320.1)

ke6guj
09-13-2012, 8:51 AM
I doubt you'll get any field agent to put anything "in writing". Application
ATF F 1 (5320.1)

I am familiar with the Form 1 app. That is to request permission to make a title II firearm like an AOW, SBS, SBR, or MG. And you have to pay $200 when you submit that form.. It is not for title I firearms. We do not have to pay to make title I firearms.

glane5910
09-13-2012, 8:55 AM
The Form 1 was just the 1st one I found. Haven't looked at it in depth, couldn't open it to read it. I just moved back to Bakersfield from Susanville. All of my regs are still packed. I got my info from the Codified regulations that ATF gave me. I'll dig it all out and post. There are so many what I believe are grey areas. One section will say "X" and then 2 pages over it contradicts what "X" just said.

ke6guj
09-13-2012, 8:57 AM
I'll dig out the Fed regs and post. You are manufacturing a firearm regardless where you build it. You aren't required to pay excise tax unless you build 51 weapons per year.did you even read the OP. in there is a link from Sterling Nixon, at the time the Chief of the Tech Branch. In there, he puts it in writing that you don't have to mark a homebuilt firearm for personal use. http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/BATFE-AMD-65-Manufacture-Marking-2004-11-09.pdf

glane5910
09-13-2012, 9:01 AM
did you even read the OP. in there is a link from Sterling Nixon, at the time the Chief of the Tech Branch. In there, he puts it in writing that you don't have to mark a homebuilt firearm for personal use. http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/BATFE-AMD-65-Manufacture-Marking-2004-11-09.pdf

Thanks for the link. That was 2004 and a much different administration. Who knows if its still the "understood" policy. I'd want a clarification from current ATF. They had a whole different view of what constituted manufacture of a firearm back then also.

CSACANNONEER
09-13-2012, 9:02 AM
Gene, how do these rules affect a home-MODIFIED gun?

I'm right now building the pieces needed to make major changes to my Ruger New Vaquero. Right now it's a 357Magnum, marked as such with the factory SN.

When the conversion is done it will be permanently changed to a 9mmPara, with a replacement cylinder and a true .355 barrel. (Plus magazine feeding and gas ejection of empties.)

My understanding is that any permanent caliber change of this nature would require a professional gunsmith to have a handgun manufacturer's licence and re-mark the gun in question at least as to caliber, and a lot of these guys like Gary Reeder also put a new serial number on. At that point the gun is legally no longer a "Ruger", it's a "Gary Reeder" somethingorother.

I also recall that a bunch of gunsmiths doing caliber conversions were busted by ATF some years back, in a sort of sweep.

So...am I going to end up in a position where I need to at a minimum scratch out "357" and put in "9mm Para"?
If you are going to transfer it, it might need to be remarked. But, for personal use, it is not legally required.

The way I'm reading it, federal law says that ALL firearms shall have a serial number if manufactured after 1968. If the weapon is a manufactured at home type, the ATF will issue a serial number for it but you have to apply for it. I am an FFL holder and questioned an ATF field agent about this.


You are reading it wrong. Homebuilt firearms are not being built to sell or otherwise transfer. So, they do not require ANd or manufacturer's markings unless they are transferred.

glane5910
09-13-2012, 10:11 AM
Thanks for the link. That was 2004 and a much different administration. Who knows if its still the "understood" policy. I'd want a clarification from current ATF. They had a whole different view of what constituted manufacture of a firearm back then also.

I looked and looked but for the life of me can't find what I had remembered reading. It was over a year ago so I guess it could've been something under NFA regs and not the GCA of 1968.

VaderSpade
09-13-2012, 10:17 AM
:facepalm:

glane5910
09-13-2012, 10:20 AM
:facepalm:

I don't have a problem correcting what say that could be incorrect!!

ke6guj
09-13-2012, 10:29 AM
I would think once the bbl hits 16" its considered a rifle isn't it?

its not a rifle until it has a shoulder stock on it (definition of a rifle requires that it be designed to be fired from the shoulder).

glane5910
09-14-2012, 9:53 AM
its not a rifle until it has a shoulder stock on it (definition of a rifle requires that it be designed to be fired from the shoulder).

Correct but basically so is a shotgun . That didn't stop them here from banning Taurus Judges as "short barreled shotguns"

jingerale
09-14-2012, 10:14 AM
Just like a rifle, totally legal. People are buy and machining 1911 80% paperweights into firearms for the reasons you mention.

Laws don't tell you what you CAN do, they tell you what you CANNOT do. Unless expressly prohibited by law, it is still our god given right to do what we want to. (for now)

Justin

so with the Ares 1911 frames coming to the market soon, maybe it's the right time to ask this question. Most people will probably use a 5" barrel for their 1911, but don't you need a 6" + barrel for a single shot pistol? I mean that's why when you go to a shop and they provide SSE service, you first "walk out" with a long barrel and sled, right? Will this also be the case for "building" your own 1911 for the first time vs. converting an existing gun.

glane5910
09-14-2012, 10:21 AM
so with the Ares 1911 frames coming to the market soon, maybe it's the right time to ask this question. Most people will probably use a 5" barrel for their 1911, but don't you need a 6" + barrel for a single shot pistol? I mean that's why when you go to a shop and they provide SSE service, you first "walk out" with a long barrel and sled, right? Will this also be the case for "building" your own 1911 for the first time vs. converting an existing gun.

How do you get past the Calif lab test requirement unless you build as a single shot?

jingerale
09-14-2012, 10:24 AM
How do you get past the Calif lab test requirement unless you build as a single shot?

well, that's exactly what I said, you have to do it as a single shot. Just wondering if people are even aware of a barrel length requirement when it comes to single shots, unless I'm wrong about it. Most of the time, when we discuss single shot here, it's about AR pistols, and generally, the barrels on AR pistols are what 7" to 10.5" inches? So this question doesn't come up very often.

glane5910
09-14-2012, 11:09 AM
I'm wondering out loud here but why would someone want to build a single shot 1911?(besides the because I can answer). Why not work with a smith/ffl and get a frame, do the single shot conversion then DROS it out a a single shot. After that, you can do as you please.

VaderSpade
09-14-2012, 12:34 PM
I also believe a single shot pistol must also be 10 1/2 inches over all.

Quote " why would someone want to build a single shot 1911?"

Because there is no law saying you can't convert it after you build it as a single shot.

ke6guj
09-14-2012, 12:42 PM
Correct but basically so is a shotgun . That didn't stop them here from banning Taurus Judges as "short barreled shotguns"
that is because CA law says that something can be a "short barreled shotgun" without it first being a shotgun. It is codifed in law.


How do you get past the Calif lab test requirement unless you build as a single shot?you don't. that is why you initially build in in a dimensionally-compliant single-shot configurarion.

well, that's exactly what I said, you have to do it as a single shot. Just wondering if people are even aware of a barrel length requirement when it comes to single shots, unless I'm wrong about it. Most of the time, when we discuss single shot here, it's about AR pistols, and generally, the barrels on AR pistols are what 7" to 10.5" inches? So this question doesn't come up very often.those that are actually building SSE pistols know about the barrel and OAL requirements.

I'm wondering out loud here but why would someone want to build a single shot 1911?(besides the because I can answer). Why not work with a smith/ffl and get a frame, do the single shot conversion then DROS it out a a single shot. After that, you can do as you please.why would I want to build a single-shot 1911. maybe so that it is built the way I want and that I can be proud that I built my own gun. nothing says that it has to stay as a single-shot. Once I comply with the law and use the exemption afforded to SSE handguns, nothing says that I can't latter modify it into a semi-auto config. Just as if I had bought it from an FFL as an SSE and them converted it afterwards.

glane5910
09-14-2012, 1:06 PM
that is because CA law says that something can be a "short barreled shotgun" without it first being a shotgun. It is codifed in law.


you don't. that is why you initially build in in a dimensionally-compliant single-shot configurarion.

those that are actually building SSE pistols know about the barrel and OAL requirements.

why would I want to build a single-shot 1911. maybe so that it is built the way I want and that I can be proud that I built my own gun. nothing says that it has to stay as a single-shot. Once I comply with the law and use the exemption afforded to SSE handguns, nothing says that I can't latter modify it into a semi-auto config. Just as if I had bought it from an FFL as an SSE and them converted it afterwards.

Thanks for the info..

Inquirer
09-17-2012, 9:35 PM
Out of curiosity, what's the "cooling off period" before you're legally able to sell a homemade, personal use firearm? I'm planning on building an AK, and I'm not planning on selling it, but if the time comes that I have to, I don't want to get slapped with some manufacturing charge because I didn't wait 5 years, 1 year, whatever. Thanks in advance!

Inq

nssurge
11-11-2012, 4:57 PM
Does anyone have a working link for the pdf he posted?

Thanks

ke6guj
11-11-2012, 5:02 PM
Does anyone have a working link for the pdf he posted?

Thanks
give it a couple days. Gene had a webserver issue and is rebuilding the site.

VaderSpade
11-25-2012, 11:10 AM
So after recommending you put a serial number on home built guns so you don't get in trouble, that's what just got a guy I knows AR's taken away!

This guys brother had a late season tag that he filled the last Saturday of the season. They quartered the buck up and let the meat age for a week before cutting it up. When they cut the buck up the guy I know takes a little meat home with him. Well he gets pulled over by a game warden (tail light) and the warden finds the meat. This guy tells the warden the whole story because it's the truth and the warden's not buying it. He accuses the guy of back dating the tag on a fresh kill. The warden takes the meat and the head to do DNA test. The guy I know knows it's the same deer so nothing to worry about there.

The next day the warden shows up at the guys house and ask if he can look around.

They tell him flat out NO you can't look around. The warden calls for back up tells everyone not to touch anything and calls the DA for a Warrant.
The back up gets there but no warrant. They tell the guys that they have a daylight only warrant on the way but the guy with the warrant gets lost or something and daylight is fading fast, so they search without it being served.

They ask the guys to open the safe and show them the gun that shot the buck. They tell them no. "I would hate to ruin your safe but we will get into it one way or another" they say. So they open the safe with about 30 guns in it, and the cops run ALL the numbers.

In the end they left all the guns except for 3 AR's. The guy I know built them from 80% lowers and used the same serial numbers on two BUT they are different models, with different model numbers, one is a .308. The cops said they were taking them because the serial numbers looked suspicious.

Anyway I came to this thread to get a link for the guys lawyer, and thought I would share.

So much for saying NO to a search.

Ford8N
11-25-2012, 9:21 PM
So after recommending you put a serial number on home built guns so you don't get in trouble, that's what just got a guy I knows AR's taken away!

This guys brother had a late season tag that he filled the last Saturday of the season. They quartered the buck up and let the meat age for a week before cutting it up. When they cut the buck up the guy I know takes a little meat home with him. Well he gets pulled over by a game warden (tail light) and the warden finds the meat. This guy tells the warden the whole story because it's the truth and the warden's not buying it. He accuses the guy of back dating the tag on a fresh kill. The warden takes the meat and the head to do DNA test. The guy I know knows it's the same deer so nothing to worry about there.

The next day the warden shows up at the guys house and ask if he can look around.

They tell him flat out NO you can't look around. The warden calls for back up tells everyone not to touch anything and calls the DA for a Warrant.
The back up gets there but no warrant. They tell the guys that they have a daylight only warrant on the way but the guy with the warrant gets lost or something and daylight is fading fast, so they search without it being served.

They ask the guys to open the safe and show them the gun that shot the buck. They tell them no. "I would hate to ruin your safe but we will get into it one way or another" they say. So they open the safe with about 30 guns in it, and the cops run ALL the numbers.

In the end they left all the guns except for 3 AR's. The guy I know built them from 80% lowers and used the same serial numbers on two BUT they are different models, with different model numbers, one is a .308. The cops said they were taking them because the serial numbers looked suspicious.

Anyway I came to this thread to get a link for the guys lawyer, and thought I would share.

So much for saying NO to a search.

At that point I would tell the cops to go pound, HaHa. In fact, I wouldn't even answer the door if I see cops or wardens.

C.C.
11-27-2012, 11:57 AM
They said no to a search. Then...they opened the safe only after threat of violence...to the safe. I bet the threat of violence gets the guns back...unless someone lies in court.

Varg Vikernes
12-19-2012, 9:10 PM
So what is the best way to put the numbers on your AK Receiver? Electro-pencil??

Flintlock Tom
12-20-2012, 6:53 AM
If the UOC movement taught us anything it is to always have an audio recorder running when interacting with LEOs.
This will probably come down to "his word against mine."

mxadam579
12-26-2012, 3:19 PM
Im kinda lost im building a ak pistol from a parts kit and i have no intention of selling.

*do i have to put a seriel # and were it was made
*should i put a serial # and were it was made

wpage
01-06-2013, 2:25 PM
This is a complex area and lends itself to expensive litigation if certain situations occur...

ivorydoc
01-29-2013, 7:18 PM
Considering a future 80% AR build, I'm inclined to include a date of completion.
If future prohibition occurs, the firearm will be marked as being completed during a legal period.

Appreciate any thoughts, feedback, comments.

(new member, 1st post - please be gentle)

bplvr
01-29-2013, 7:32 PM
you could have added that any date in the future .Take a picture of it with today's newspaper.{or the date and time stamp on your computer, lower right corner}

ivorydoc
01-29-2013, 8:23 PM
Thanks bplvr, good points. Even photos with old newspapers, etc. can be produced at later dates.

I can't think of any practical way to provide airtight documentation of a production date so I'm nixing the idea.

bigguns85
01-31-2013, 11:33 PM
I read the website on what is a zip gun, but im still confused what is a zip gun legaly? also im thinking about making that taruss 1911 80 percent. What things do i need to consider? can I make it full semi auto right away or do i need to make it a single shot then register it and then convert it?

8eric6
02-06-2013, 7:02 PM
Thanks bplvr, good points. Even photos with old newspapers, etc. can be produced at later dates.

I can't think of any practical way to provide airtight documentation of a production date so I'm nixing the idea.

You could take a picture of the rifle with the newspaper yadda yadda put it in an envolpe and mail it to yourself would be sealed with postage date. Might work for you

ivorydoc
02-06-2013, 8:12 PM
You could take a picture of the rifle with the newspaper yadda yadda put it in an envolpe and mail it to yourself would be sealed with postage date. Might work for you

Thank you, it might indeed.
Just a photo of the receiver including the ser. # and any other markings present, in a sealed, postmarked envelope I think would be sufficient.

I can't see how the inclusion of the newspaper yadda yadda could help to establish a date of completion. The receiver could have been completed before, on, or after the date of the newspaper (after- using an older newspaper).

8eric6
02-06-2013, 9:00 PM
Thank you, it might indeed.
Just a photo of the receiver including the ser. # and any other markings present, in a sealed, postmarked envelope I think would be sufficient.

I can't see how the inclusion of the newspaper yadda yadda could help to establish a date of completion. The receiver could have been completed before, on, or after the date of the newspaper (after- using an older newspaper).

True. guess the buck would stop at the postage date. hopefully at least. sucks we even have to worry about it

ke6guj
02-06-2013, 9:19 PM
why do people think that a postmarked envelope means anything? what stops me from mailing an empty unsealed envelope to get a postmark cancellation on it and then saving the envelope to seal at a later date?

ivorydoc
02-06-2013, 9:26 PM
Absolutely nothing. Some good minds here.
Turn the photo into a postcard then mail?

8eric6
02-07-2013, 6:37 AM
Just shooting out ideas man screw it take a picture go to your banks notary

8eric6
02-07-2013, 7:00 AM
Called post office they said if you sent it back empty the stamp would most Likely say "unsealed no contents" also said you could also send it to yourself certified to get written and computerized record in PO files

NorCalDustin
02-18-2013, 10:10 AM
If I have a homebuilt AK that i did a couple years ago and has had the serial number, place of manufacture, etc all engraved on it to spec...

Can I transfer that firearm to a parent (who is not prohibited from owning and who lives in California) without an FFL? I know the transfer can be done with an FFL, but in this case its an intrafamily transfer of a Rifle which does not normally need an FFL.

wpage
02-19-2013, 1:44 AM
They will soon pass a law changing anything creative we devise...

Ford8N
02-19-2013, 4:50 AM
They will soon pass a law changing anything creative we devise...
That would be good. Ever hear the story of the Brier Patch... :43: I've already got evil thoughts...

wpage
02-21-2013, 2:31 PM
Sticky stuff...

Yes long live the Repuplic and true freedom

manuelcardenas77
05-18-2013, 2:29 PM
Sticky thanks!

Tonymin
06-12-2013, 2:50 PM
Ok, so I want to engrave on my flat?

TONMIN-2013/1387XXX

HOMEBUILT MAADI-AKIT
WALNUT CREEK CA
922R COMPLIANT Cal. 7.62x39

The serial number is my maadi kit number in english
Any comments?

vprieto23
09-02-2013, 12:17 PM
Ok, so I want to engrave on my flat?

TONMIN-2013/1387XXX

HOMEBUILT MAADI-AKIT
WALNUT CREEK CA
922R COMPLIANT Cal. 7.62x39

The serial number is my maadi kit number in english
Any comments?

That will work

Darryl Licht
09-07-2013, 11:04 AM
First off, I have been considering building an AR from an 80% lower for about a year now. I am new to all this "Build a Bear" stuff, so please no flaming!

Since this is the thread for home builds, If I build an AR or AK must I add a bullet button to it to be legal in Cali?

Any other suggestions besides engraving a SN and manufacturing location, etc?

boromokot
09-13-2013, 6:13 PM
First off, I have been considering building an AR from an 80% lower for about a year now. I am new to all this "Build a Bear" stuff, so please no flaming!

Since this is the thread for home builds, If I build an AR or AK must I add a bullet button to it to be legal in Cali?

Any other suggestions besides engraving a SN and manufacturing location, etc?

yes, current law states that you'll either have to add a bullet button or build in a featureless configuration(no pistol grip, flash hider, vertical foregrip or collapsible/folding stock) to keep the firearm California legal. Print out and double check the flowchart to be sure your rifle is compliant.

rust&rain
10-03-2013, 2:56 PM
If you are curious as to what is/isn't legal here in Cali google 922R...It will tell you everything you need to know.

SacAKBuilder
10-04-2013, 1:02 PM
If you are curious as to what is/isn't legal here in Cali google 922R...It will tell you everything you need to know.

Seriously...and why does every thread seem to gravitate back to the "Law"?

Its pretty cut and dry. Theres enough FUD kicking around which leads to ridiculous things like welding suppressors and locking folding stocks in place.

I dare someone to find ONE instance of an AK builder(or even just a regular knuckle-dragging owner) getting busted for either of those.

And while you're googling, find proof that not heat treating a home bent flat leads to egged axis pin holes.

Go.

Alex$
10-04-2013, 4:55 PM
Seriously...and why does every thread seem to gravitate back to the "Law"?

Its pretty cut and dry. Theres enough FUD kicking around which leads to ridiculous things like welding suppressors and locking folding stocks in place.

I dare someone to find ONE instance of an AK builder(or even just a regular knuckle-dragging owner) getting busted for either of those.

And while you're googling, find proof that not spot welding a home bent flat leads to egged axis pin holes.

Go.

Owning a rifle in an illegal configuration is just asking for trouble.

(this is starting to sound like a theme with you, "Forget the law, do what you want.", perhaps this had something to do with getting banned on another forum?)

BOATS N HOES
10-09-2013, 12:55 PM
Read this thread through
Read a few other threads through
Did a lot of googling

Just want to make sure before I send this thing off to be engraved -

Make- can be anything I want
Model- not needed
Serial- can be anything I want as long as I don't duplicate one for another home build
Location - NEEDS TO BE ACCURATE (right??)
Caliber- MULTI is ok

Going to add a QR that reads my real name and last four of social with made in USA 2013... Seem ok?


Am i understanding everything correctly here?

Thanks in advance

BOATS N HOES
10-09-2013, 1:00 PM
PS - never plan to sell

VaderSpade
10-09-2013, 1:15 PM
I'm not sure if anyone knows just what (at a minimum) you will need if registration comes about, but you would be safe with, Name (yours and a reconcilable abbreviation), city & state, Model, Caliber, and serial number.

Read this thread through
Read a few other threads through
Did a lot of googling

Just want to make sure before I send this thing off to be engraved -

Make- can be anything I want
Model- not needed
Serial- can be anything I want as long as I don't duplicate one for another home build
Location - NEEDS TO BE ACCURATE (right??)
Caliber- MULTI is ok

Going to add a QR that reads my real name and last four of social with made in USA 2013... Seem ok?


Am i understanding everything correctly here?

Thanks in advance

BOATS N HOES
10-11-2013, 9:06 AM
But as of now does all this seem ok?

VaderSpade
10-11-2013, 9:27 AM
As of now it's fine but why not add a model?

BOATS N HOES
10-13-2013, 3:01 PM
Eh I dunno
If it's not needed why put some nonsense just to fill space?

Too bad the location has be accurate and can't be a fictional location.

bplvr
10-13-2013, 6:11 PM
When u set your gun down at the range I'll pick it up and walk off with it.

Try to prove it is yours.

It's now MINE !

thedonger
10-14-2013, 8:17 AM
When u set your gun down at the range I'll pick it up and walk off with it.

Try to prove it is yours.

It's now MINE !

Same way you prove any long gun is yours.

SacAKBuilder
10-18-2013, 2:40 PM
Owning a rifle in an illegal configuration is just asking for trouble.

(this is starting to sound like a theme with you, "Forget the law, do what you want.", perhaps this had something to do with getting banned on another forum?)

Perhaps anyone who's too afraid to arm themselves because of ridiculous laws should be banned from real life.

CSACANNONEER
10-18-2013, 3:01 PM
First off, I have been considering building an AR from an 80% lower for about a year now. I am new to all this "Build a Bear" stuff, so please no flaming!

Since this is the thread for home builds, If I build an AR or AK must I add a bullet button to it to be legal in Cali?

Any other suggestions besides engraving a SN and manufacturing location, etc?

Of course it doesn't need a bullet button or any type of mag lock IF you build it into a featureless semi auto centerfire rifle or shotgun or, if you build it into a non semi auto anything or, if you build it into a semi auto rimfire rifle. But, if it's a semi auto handgun or a semi auto centerfire long gun with evil features, it will require a magazine lock.

Seriously...and why does every thread seem to gravitate back to the "Law"?

Its pretty cut and dry. Theres enough FUD kicking around which leads to ridiculous things like welding suppressors and locking folding stocks in place.

I dare someone to find ONE instance of an AK builder(or even just a regular knuckle-dragging owner) getting busted for either of those.

And while you're googling, find proof that not heat treating a home bent flat leads to egged axis pin holes.

Go.

Well you got banned quick and obviously for good reason. The law is the law and we law abiding gun owners don't like morons who make us look bad. BTW, there are plenty of people who have been been busted for CA AW violations. Get a clue. Oh yea, not heat treating axis holes can cause the holes to egg over time. But, what do I know? I've had somewhere between 500 and 750 homebuilt AKs manufactured at my home so, I'm sure you have more experience than I do.

When u set your gun down at the range I'll pick it up and walk off with it.

Try to prove it is yours.

It's now MINE !

While I may not mark my homebuilds with SNs or other common identifying markings, I do put discrete manufacturer marking on them. So, I can easily go into a court room and instruct the judge on exactly where to look for what on them. It would be obvious that no one but the one who put the marks there would even realize that they existed. So, wanna try claiming one of my "unmarked" firearms at a range? :p

CSACANNONEER
10-18-2013, 3:05 PM
If you are curious as to what is/isn't legal here in Cali google 922R...It will tell you everything you need to know.

LOL, 922(r) has nothing to do with California law won't tell you anything about Ca law and homebuilds. In fact, 922(r) doesn't even apply to homebuilt handguns. So, does that mean anything goes in CA? Get a clue!!!!!!!!

Darryl Licht
10-18-2013, 9:13 PM
Gene:

Thanks for all this very good and pertinent information!

In your opinion are there any advantages/disadvantages to engraving a specific caliber vs. "multi cal" on an AR 80% lower?

Darryl Licht
10-19-2013, 12:57 PM
Looking more closely at 27 CFR 478.92 (http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/05dec20031700/edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2003/aprqtr/pdf/27cfr478.92.pdf) you need to place your name, caliber, serial number and manufacturing location on any firearm you wish to be able to sell. A model designation appears optional.

-Gene

Sorry for the double post, but above you say "your name"...

Can a made up manufacturer name, e.g.; "Darryl Licht Arms" be substituted for "your name", or do you suggest actually engraving your name into a lower?

dchang0
11-08-2013, 9:40 PM
I'm wondering the same thing as Darryl Licht. Here are my questions and my current beliefs (which could be wrong) on each:

1) Can it be a fake manufacturer, i.e. a made-up company name? The way I read the law, it cannot be fake; the name must be really your company or your name or a recognizable abbreviation thereof. NeoWeird said in some other thread:

"I believe this issue has come up before (not on this forum) and the answer is it's NOT allowed. If I remember right, it has to do with the fact that putting false information on the side of a weapon is construed as an attempt to hide the origins of the weapon and is on par, though under different code and for different reasons, with grinding the serial number off the firearm.

I could be wrong as I'm recalling this from a vague memory."

I agree with him. Falsifying info on a firearm is probably a crime.

2) If you happen to own a company (corporation or LLC, not DBA, to be specific), can you use your company as the manufacturer? I would think yes, BUT there are reasons why you should not do so.

a) I believe that it will be harder to argue that you weren't manufacturing with intent to sell and that the completed 80% is for personal use if you use your company to manufacture the lower. And if your company does not have an FFL, then you could be in federal trouble.

b) A friend posed this worst-case scenario: Say your lower gets stolen and is used in a murder. Knowing the "deep pockets" sue-happy ambulance-chaser lawyers are out there, the victim's family might bring civil suit against the manufacturer, which traces back to you (through Sec. of State business records). Yes, if you used your personal initials, there is a remote possibility that the lower could be traced back to you (perhaps if you reported it stolen), and then they might bring civil suit against you, as a person, but this is less likely if the lawyer hears a person's name and thinks "no money there, let's not sue" versus hearing a company name and thinking "deep pockets = jackpot!"

Ironically, using your company may give you the protections of the corporate veil; if they sue your company, you could protect your personal assets like your house, etc.

3) On another worst-case scenario--let's say you use your company name and YOU commit the murder. Then the victim's family can press criminal charges against you AND civilly sue you for wrongful death AND also civilly sue your company for manufacturing the murder weapon. Triple whammy. Might be better to keep your company out of it, especially if it has funds that might be necessary for you to distribute to yourself in order to pay for your defense/lack of income while incarcerated.

Thoughts?

I'm leaning towards just my personal initials at this time.

wpage
07-03-2015, 3:43 PM
No matter what is done wording will come that will make all this moot at some point in the future...

ascensjs
12-26-2015, 6:39 PM
how does SB 808 affect me if i already stamped my initials, city and state, caliber and the serial number from the parts kit on the receiver?

phonso302
12-27-2015, 8:20 AM
Sb808 doesn't affect you because it was vetoed by the governor...