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BlackReef
02-11-2008, 1:50 AM
This may seem like a silly question, but CA has some silly laws.

Situation:

You and your friends are taking firearms to BLM land (or any land where it is OK to shoot) Example: Out in the Desert (Ocotillo area, Borrego, etc).

You arrive at your destination in the desert, and want to go shooting. At what point is it OK to have a loaded firearm (Handgun or Long Rifle?)

I have heard a story about some Sheriff's rolling up on some people I know during a campfire in Ocotillo Wells. One of my friends had a loaded Glock in the back of his truck, and a LEO found it during a search and asked if he had a permit for the handgun. My friend has a CCW and had to show it to the LEO. I know the details of this seem very vague, but I am going off of heresay as I wasn't there, and it happened years ago. Regardless, the above story is just to illustrate my question.

So what I am asking, at what point can you have a loaded firearm in your vehicle? I know transportation it MUST be unloaded and seperated from Ammo, but when you are parked and the engine is off, can you possess a loaded firearm (assuming it is not concealed and there are zero gun restrictions in the area you happen to be). It seems like it would be illegal if you are in the parking lot at Vons, but would seem fine if you are out in the boonies about to go shooting. What makes the determination if it is legal or not to have a loaded firearm? (Assuming it is not concealed in either situation)

Please shed light on this. Thank you

-Joe
(newb with Gun laws)

CitaDeL
02-11-2008, 2:29 AM
This may seem like a silly question, but CA has some silly laws.

Situation:

You and your friends are taking firearms to BLM land (or any land where it is OK to shoot) Example: Out in the Desert (Ocotillo area, Borrego, etc).

You arrive at your destination in the desert, and want to go shooting. At what point is it OK to have a loaded firearm (Handgun or Long Rifle?)

I have heard a story about some Sheriff's rolling up on some people I know during a campfire in Ocotillo Wells. One of my friends had a loaded Glock in the back of his truck, and a LEO found it during a search and asked if he had a permit for the handgun. My friend has a CCW and had to show it to the LEO. I know the details of this seem very vague, but I am going off of heresay as I wasn't there, and it happened years ago. Regardless, the above story is just to illustrate my question.

So what I am asking, at what point can you have a loaded firearm in your vehicle? I know transportation it MUST be unloaded and seperated from Ammo, but when you are parked and the engine is off, can you possess a loaded firearm (assuming it is not concealed and there are zero gun restrictions in the area you happen to be). It seems like it would be illegal if you are in the parking lot at Vons, but would seem fine if you are out in the boonies about to go shooting. What makes the determination if it is legal or not to have a loaded firearm? (Assuming it is not concealed in either situation)

Please shed light on this. Thank you

-Joe
(newb with Gun laws)


Your inquiry has two answers. First answer is 'sometimes' and second answer is 'never'. These answers largely depend on what your specific circumstances are.

With firearms possession, two laws generally come into play- one is PC12025 (concealed firearm) and two PC12031 (loaded firearm).

If you are not licensed to carry concealed you may not conceal a firearm on your person or in your vehicle. First time offense is a misdemeanor. If you are carrying the firearm openly in a belt holster or the weapon is in plain view the weapon is not considered to be concealed and you are not in violation. So, if your buddy didn't have a 'CCW' license he may have run into some legal inconvenience for having a loaded Glock concealed in the truck.

Now, as far as PC12031 is concerned, you can get into trouble depending on where you are. If you are inside city limits or in an area where discharge of firearms is prohibited you cannot possess a loaded firearm unless you fall under some exemption- such as a "CCW' licensee, a person in their home, temporary campsite, or place of business, a law enforcement officer, someone who is in immediate fear for their life or grave bodily injury, or in the process of making a lawful citizen's arrest. If you are in unincorporated territory where discharge of firearms is not regulated, there is no violation of the law. Plinking with buddies on BLM land is generally legal.

The only time you can have a loaded firearm in your vehicle is if you are a "CCW" licensee OR you are in unicorporated territory where discharge is not regulated AND the weapon is in plain sight- either carried openly in a belt holster or in plain view on the seat or on the dash. What narrows the circumstances greatly is that discharge of firearms is prohibited from public roads and highways.


Check out more information here-http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/dwcl/12020.php

1911A-1Fan
02-11-2008, 7:24 AM
CitaDel's analyze is pretty logical, of the vehicle is being used for transportation, but what if the vehicle is part of the campsite, or for that matter is occupied (camper, RV)?

I would hope the home/campsite exception against loaded concealable weapons would apply if the vehicle constitutes part of the campsite. I mean, I would much rather have a camper keep the pistol in the cabin of his/her vehicle than stuffed under his/her pillow in his sleeping bag. It would obviously be more secure in the vehicle, but still reasonably accessible to the camper in the event of trouble brewing.

Of course as I familiarize myself with California gun laws, I increasingly come to the conclusion that "what's logic (or common sense) got to do with it?"

ldivinag
02-11-2008, 9:23 AM
then buy the book HOW TO OWN A GUN IN CALIFORNIA AND STAY OUT OF JAIL.

when i got my first handgun in 2000, i bought that book and read it cover to cover.

one thing stuck to me:

in a camper/motorhome, when you are moving, all laws about apply there about concealed weapons and loaded ones.

once you arrive at your destination (camp site, stopped at night at a rest stop, etc), then all laws apply just like if you were at home.

but one you start moving again, the laws revert back to the previous situation...

http://www.amazon.com/How-Own-Gun-Stay-Jail/dp/0964286440/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1202754197&sr=8-1

1911A-1Fan
02-11-2008, 9:30 AM
then buy the book HOW TO OWN A GUN IN CALIFORNIA AND STAY OUT OF JAIL.

when i got my first handgun in 2000, i bought that book and read it cover to cover.

one thing stuck to me:

in a camper/motorhome, when you are moving, all laws about apply there about concealed weapons and loaded ones.

once you arrive at your destination (camp site, stopped at night at a rest stop, etc), then all laws apply just like if you were at home.

but one you start moving again, the laws revert back to the previous situation...

http://www.amazon.com/How-Own-Gun-Stay-Jail/dp/0964286440/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1202754197&sr=8-1

That's clearer than the book. I have the book and it is definitely a brain freeze.

ViPER395
02-11-2008, 12:57 PM
So when I camp out, I only have a pickup. If I was sitting there around the fire and I had a firearm with an attached loaded magazine in the bed of the truck, would that be considered a loaded weapon in a vehicle?

What if the keys are in the thing and the radio is on?

Seriously. i've enver given this a thought when I camp out.

Rob P.
02-11-2008, 1:26 PM
The problem isn't having a weapon in the vehicle. The problem is having a LOADED weapon in the vehicle.

Your buddy had a LOADED Glock in his car. BIG no-no for those without a CCW. Had the weapon been unloaded, it would have been fine (absent any "concealed" issues if it was not readily visible or in a case). Had it been a long arm, he STILL would have been talking to a judge about it.

If it's IN THE CAR it'd better be unloaded. "Car" means "not an RV which is parked for habitation." "In" means "anywhere inside the body of the vehicle including the bed of pickup trucks."

Seems simple to me.

thegratenate
02-11-2008, 1:28 PM
Block the tires and put something in front of the truck so that it cannot be driven without moving things. When you turn off the radio take the keys out. Also make sure that the firearms cannot be mistaken for concealed.

So you mean that the bed of a pickup cannot become part of a campsite.

It's a good thing that common sense isn't used.

I guess my comments are wrong.

And here I was trying to apply common sense.

BlackReef
02-11-2008, 1:30 PM
Your inquiry has two answers. First answer is 'sometimes' and second answer is 'never'. These answers largely depend on what your specific circumstances are.

With firearms possession, two laws generally come into play- one is PC12025 (concealed firearm) and two PC12031 (loaded firearm).

If you are not licensed to carry concealed you may not conceal a firearm on your person or in your vehicle. First time offense is a misdemeanor. If you are carrying the firearm openly in a belt holster or the weapon is in plain view the weapon is not considered to be concealed and you are not in violation. So, if your buddy didn't have a 'CCW' license he may have run into some legal inconvenience for having a loaded Glock concealed in the truck.

Now, as far as PC12031 is concerned, you can get into trouble depending on where you are. If you are inside city limits or in an area where discharge of firearms is prohibited you cannot possess a loaded firearm unless you fall under some exemption- such as a "CCW' licensee, a person in their home, temporary campsite, or place of business, a law enforcement officer, someone who is in immediate fear for their life or grave bodily injury, or in the process of making a lawful citizen's arrest. If you are in unincorporated territory where discharge of firearms is not regulated, there is no violation of the law. Plinking with buddies on BLM land is generally legal.

The only time you can have a loaded firearm in your vehicle is if you are a "CCW" licensee OR you are in unicorporated territory where discharge is not regulated AND the weapon is in plain sight- either carried openly in a belt holster or in plain view on the seat or on the dash. What narrows the circumstances greatly is that discharge of firearms is prohibited from public roads and highways.


Check out more information here-http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/dwcl/12020.php

Good stuff. Thank you for the clarification. So the way I understand it now...

If you are camping out in the desert (or anywhere for that matter) you can carry loaded (as long as their are no firearm restrictions in the area you are camping). Now if you are camped out in a legal shooting area (BLM land, etc) It is OK to conceal loaded weapon, or am I wrong about this? Can you keep the loaded weapon concealed in your vehicle for example or must it be in plain site still? Again, assuming you are on BLM land or something where shooting is fine.

ViPER395
02-11-2008, 1:33 PM
Seems simple to me.

It isn't that simple. My truck is my RV. You can tell 'cause my rifle's right next to the sleeping bag. Does that count?

So I can't sleep in the bed of my truck with a loaded firearm by my side? Because I have, and I will continue to do so. I would think the 'campsite clause' would exempt this rule. Probably not to some hellbent ranger or cop trying to bust up your party or lovefest, though.

Resident LEOs speak up please. Or someone with some real experience.

ldivinag
02-11-2008, 1:36 PM
as long as you are stopped and the vehicle isnt ready to be driven off, then at that point, that is your domicile.

now, unless the land you're on has more stricter rules, your HOME laws apply.


DISCLAIMER: i aint a lawyer. i just read that book i mentioned above, which is written by a lawyer... so take my advice only as far as you can throw it... ;)

BlackReef
02-11-2008, 1:38 PM
as long as you are stopped and the vehicle isnt ready to be driven off, then at that point, that is your domicile.

now, unless the land you're on has more stricter rules, your HOME laws apply.


DISCLAIMER: i aint a lawyer. i just read that book i mentioned above, which is written by a lawyer... so take my advice only as far as you can throw it... ;)

Sounds good. Makes sense too, but thats scary considering we are referring to CA law. So if I am on BLM land, camping with my girlfriend, and a Sheriff comes up to me and I have my loaded Glock 35 and Remy 870 leaning against my truck, I am perfectly fine? Cant imagine a LEO being cool with that. Of course I would inform the LEOs that they are loaded and what not

ldivinag
02-11-2008, 1:44 PM
one thing LEs hate is being suprised.

so open carry and be upfront. and keep your HAND visible at all times and you'll find that BLM rangers and sheriffs will see that you aint hiding anything and will just drive on by (seen and read first hand reports...)

of course my luck, i get that LE that is 100% opposite...

ViPER395
02-11-2008, 1:45 PM
Sounds good. Makes sense too, but thats scary considering we are referring to CA law. So if I am on BLM land, camping with my girlfriend, and a Sheriff comes up to me and I have my loaded Glock 35 and Remy 870 leaning against my truck, I am perfectly fine? Cant imagine a LEO being cool with that. Of course I would inform the LEOs that they are loaded and what not

Thats my thing. I'm not really worried about the legality, i'm worried about a LEO considering it a loaded weapon and busting me. I think it's a legal campsite, but the judge may agree with the LEO.

sloguy
02-11-2008, 2:02 PM
im an actor. i did some work in a national park ranger training program. i played the part of a poacher. the trainers set up a mock campsite and gave us actors prop weapons.

as an actor my job was to test the officers as much as possible. see how many mistakes i could make them make. rattle em. like put my hands in my pockets and see how long till they notice, ect. anyway, some of those guys react harshly to things like that. this was full physical contact training. they might tackle you for not having your hands visible. or worse. they dont screw around, specially when weapons are present.

anyway, what im saying is that it pays to make the officers comfortable and not do things to worry them. specially out in the real world where its not a training exercise.

CitaDeL
02-11-2008, 2:22 PM
The problem isn't having a weapon in the vehicle. The problem is having a LOADED weapon in the vehicle.

Your buddy had a LOADED Glock in his car. BIG no-no for those without a CCW. Had the weapon been unloaded, it would have been fine (absent any "concealed" issues if it was not readily visible or in a case). Had it been a long arm, he STILL would have been talking to a judge about it.

If it's IN THE CAR it'd better be unloaded. "Car" means "not an RV which is parked for habitation." "In" means "anywhere inside the body of the vehicle including the bed of pickup trucks."

Seems simple to me.

Sorry to complicate things. Let's back up a little- a loaded weapon inside a car or truck is punishable by what? Citation of law, if you please.

I believe there are distinct differences in enforcablity as to location... ie; private property, inside or outside incorporated territory, proximity to a public road or highway and a blanket statement saying that loaded weapon in a vehicle is always a violation isnt wholly accurate. There are other specific exemptions as well ie; fear for your life or grave bodily harm. Granted, erring on the side of caution is laudable, but places our RTKBA in a 'never advisable' scenario.



More for King$nake;

12026.2. (a) Section 12025 does not apply to, or affect, any of the following:
(11) The transportation of a firearm by a person when going directly to, or coming directly from, a lawful camping activity for the purpose of having that firearm available for lawful personal protection while at the lawful campsite. This paragraph shall not be construed to override the statutory authority granted to the Department of Parks and Recreation or any other state or local governmental agencies to promulgate rules and regulations governing the administration of parks and campgrounds.

Looking at the code regarding transportation exemptions, there is no violation for concealment if you are on your way directly to or directly from your camping activity. It doesn't say anything about while you are camping. There isnt any exemption as far as I can see for target practice at anything other than a licensed range. If youre going to BLM land, Id say transport your unloaded weapon in a locked container, or go and find a campsite.

12031. (a)(1) A person is guilty of carrying a loaded firearm when he or she carries a loaded firearm on his or her person or in a vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an incorporated city or in any public place or on any public street in a prohibited area of unincorporated territory.

(l) Nothing in this section shall prevent any person from having a loaded weapon, if it is otherwise lawful, at his or her place of residence, including any temporary residence or campsite.

In short, loaded weapon is okay at your campsite. I would say that unless you're transporting it to your campsite, your weapons should be in plain view.

On the issue of securing weapons at your temporary campsite- locking it away in your car or RV where you cant readily access it, kind of defeats the purpose for bringing it along in the first place. If you take it camping, fishing, or hunting, secure your firearm by openly carrying it on your belt holster as allowed by law- PC12025(f).

Rob P.
02-11-2008, 2:48 PM
Sorry to complicate things. Let's back up a little- a loaded weapon inside a car or truck is punishable by what? Citation of law, if you please.
I just copied this from the HSC booklet. It gives all the relevant statutory info: It is illegal for the driver of any motor vehicle, or the owner of any motor vehicle
irrespective of whether the owner is occupying the vehicle, to knowingly permit
any person to carry a loaded firearm into the vehicle in violation of Penal Code
Section 12031, or Fish and Game Code Section 2006 (PC section 12034). Also,
see “Miscellaneous Prohibited Acts.”


I believe there are distinct differences in enforcablity as to location... ie; private property, inside or outside incorporated territory, proximity to a public road or highway and a blanket statement saying that loaded weapon in a vehicle is always a violation isnt wholly accurate. There are other specific exemptions as well ie; fear for your life or grave bodily harm. Granted, erring on the side of caution is laudable, but places our RTKBA in a 'never advisable' scenario.

You would generally be wrong. Fear of imminent death is the ONLY legal reason to have a loaded firearm in a vehicle. And this only by general provision as an exception to the "loaded firearms in public" statute.



More for King$nake;



Looking at the code regarding transportation exemptions, there is no violation for concealment if you are on your way directly to or directly from your camping activity. It doesn't say anything about while you are camping. There isnt any exemption as far as I can see for target practice at anything other than a licensed range. If youre going to BLM land, Id say transport your unloaded weapon in a locked container, or go and find a campsite.
There is more to firearms ownership than the "transportation statutes." There are specific exemptions to having a loaded firearm in your camp. There are specific prohibitions to having a LOADED concealed firearm while going to/from hunting or fishing expeditions.




In short, loaded weapon is okay at your campsite. I would say that unless you're transporting it to your campsite, your weapons should be in plain view.

On the issue of securing weapons at your temporary campsite- locking it away in your car or RV where you cant readily access it, kind of defeats the purpose for bringing it along in the first place. If you take it camping, fishing, or hunting, secure your firearm by openly carrying it on your belt holster as allowed by law- PC12025(f).
The problem is that the OP said that his buddy didn't HAVE IT on his person but that it was IN THE CAR and LOADED. Different scenario different rules.

You should read the law and brush up on your HSC facts. Everything discussed here is in the booklet.

It isn't that simple. My truck is my RV. You can tell 'cause my rifle's right next to the sleeping bag. Does that count?
Yes. Your truck is your RV because it is being used as one. Different rules apply than if it's just a "car" or if you're sleeping in a tent/bivvy/etc nearby. The OP also said that the Glock was "in the car" and "loaded" while everyone else was outside the car.

So I can't sleep in the bed of my truck with a loaded firearm by my side? Because I have, and I will continue to do so. I would think the 'campsite clause' would exempt this rule. Probably not to some hellbent ranger or cop trying to bust up your party or lovefest, though.


Resident LEOs speak up please. Or someone with some real experience.

I HAVE "real world experience". I carry EVERY DAY and I do not have a CCW. I interact with LEO all the time (yesterday afternoon as a matter of fact) while carrying. I have NEVER been arrested or hassled while doing this.

ViPER395
02-11-2008, 2:56 PM
I have NEVER been arrested or hassled while doing this.

What agency you work for/retired from?

Just kidding, just kidding.. :cool:

Rob P.
02-11-2008, 3:09 PM
LOL. What's really funny is asking LEO for legal advice when LEO is known to be unversed on legal matters except for general Veh Code stuff and personal offenses (Domestic violence, battery, Drunk in public, etc). They just don't have the training or exposure.

I, OTOH, do this everyday, am a lawyer, and have studied the statutes and legal opinions. I may occasionally get it wrong on some of the more esoteric things, but so far have never been wrong when it comes to carrying a loaded weapon. Especially in a car.

TimG
02-11-2008, 3:36 PM
This may seem like a silly question, but CA has some silly laws.

Situation:

You and your friends are taking firearms to BLM land (or any land where it is OK to shoot) Example: Out in the Desert (Ocotillo area, Borrego, etc).

You arrive at your destination in the desert, and want to go shooting. At what point is it OK to have a loaded firearm (Handgun or Long Rifle?)

I have heard a story about some Sheriff's rolling up on some people I know during a campfire in Ocotillo Wells. One of my friends had a loaded Glock in the back of his truck, and a LEO found it during a search and asked if he had a permit for the handgun. My friend has a CCW and had to show it to the LEO. I know the details of this seem very vague, but I am going off of heresay as I wasn't there, and it happened years ago. Regardless, the above story is just to illustrate my question.

So what I am asking, at what point can you have a loaded firearm in your vehicle? I know transportation it MUST be unloaded and seperated from Ammo, but when you are parked and the engine is off, can you possess a loaded firearm (assuming it is not concealed and there are zero gun restrictions in the area you happen to be). It seems like it would be illegal if you are in the parking lot at Vons, but would seem fine if you are out in the boonies about to go shooting. What makes the determination if it is legal or not to have a loaded firearm? (Assuming it is not concealed in either situation)

Please shed light on this. Thank you

-Joe
(newb with Gun laws)


The official California state park web site for Ocotillo Wells SRVA specificly says "No loaded firearms are allowed"

CitaDeL
02-11-2008, 4:01 PM
You should read the law and brush up on your HSC facts. Everything discussed here is in the booklet.


Interesting. Thanks for the insight about PC12034.

You say you carry every day and have no "CCW" license. Do you carry openly or carry an unloaded weapon in a locked case? I'm curious about the practicality of daily "California Carry" sans a license to carry.

Liberty1
02-11-2008, 4:35 PM
The problem is having a LOADED weapon in the vehicle...

...If it's IN THE CAR it'd better be unloaded...

Rob P,

I fail to see how 12034 criminalizes the possession of loaded pistols, revolvers, and AOWs if the occupant is not in violation of PC 12031. And sub section (a) only applies to the driver or owner of the vehicle allowing "...any other person to carry...".


http://law.justia.com/california/codes/pen/12020-12040.html
12034. (a) It is a misdemeanor for a driver of any motor vehicle or
the owner of any motor vehicle, whether or not the owner of the
vehicle is occupying the vehicle, knowingly to permit any other
person to carry into or bring into the vehicle a firearm in violation
of Section 12031 of this code or Section 2006 of the Fish and Game
Code.
(b) Any driver or owner of any vehicle, whether or not the owner
of the vehicle is occupying the vehicle, who knowingly permits any
other person to discharge any firearm from the vehicle is punishable
by imprisonment in the county jail for not more than one year or in
state prison for 16 months or two or three years.
(c) Any person who willfully and maliciously discharges a firearm
from a motor vehicle at another person other than an occupant of a
motor vehicle is guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment in
state prison for three, five, or seven years.
(d) Except as provided in Section 3002 of the Fish and Game Code,
any person who willfully and maliciously discharges a firearm from a
motor vehicle is guilty of a public offense punishable by
imprisonment in the county jail for not more than one year or in the
state prison.

http://law.justia.com/california/codes/fgc.html
2006. It is unlawful to possess a loaded rifle or shotgun in any
vehicle or conveyance or its attachments which is standing on or
along or is being driven on or along any public highway or other way
open to the public.
A rifle or shotgun shall be deemed to be loaded for the purposes
of this section when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell in the
firing chamber but not when the only cartridges or shells are in the
magazine.

The provisions of this section shall not apply to peace officers
or members of the armed forces of this State or the United States,
while on duty or going to or returning from duty.

packnrat
02-11-2008, 9:43 PM
no matter what the law says is ok or not ok, the leo doing the "interview" will decide weather to harase you or just have a good laugh with you.

so it is all pending on weather he got layed last night,:D
or if his gril friend, wife and mortage are three months late.:eek:



then some time latter you get a day in court,
does not matter if you win or loose...you will still loo$e:chris::TFH:

be very carefull while in the prk,

no loaded guns in or around the car/truck.
no full cap mags around at all.
camp must be set up.
no beer seen.
.

pss: let me know the gps numbers so i can come down and pick up the used brass

brass hounds rule

.

CitaDeL
02-12-2008, 8:40 AM
no matter what the law says is ok or not ok, the leo doing the "interview" will decide weather to harase you or just have a good laugh with you.

so it is all pending on weather he got layed last night,:D
or if his gril friend, wife and mortage are three months late.:eek:

then some time latter you get a day in court,
does not matter if you win or loose...you will still loo$e:chris::TFH:

be very carefull while in the prk,

no loaded guns in or around the car/truck.
no full cap mags around at all.
camp must be set up.
no beer seen.
.
pss: let me know the gps numbers so i can come down and pick up the used brass

brass hounds rule

.

I dont even know where to begin.

Despite beliefs otherwise, police are not in the habit of unlawfully detaining or harassing anyone- often, I believe that such police contact is because there are some officers not as well versed on the law as they could be or act on incorrect information. The risk of litgation is high enough these days, that detaining someone without cause, or arresting someone on false charges may put their career on the line. Police do not want to do this, because they have a mortgage to pay and want to get 'laid'- having the income and the uniform help in this regard.

Even if charges are brought against an individual falsely, there is some merit to acting within the law to either establish a new precident or reinforce old ones. This helps restrict other future bad acts by police and could turn back the clock on some anti-gun legislation. This is our duty as law-abiding gun owners.

You may have loaded weapons around a vehicle, but as our discussion earlier revealed, not inside the motor vehicle per PC12034.

High capacity magazines are not illegal to possess, but you cannot manufacture, buy, sell or lend them to anyone. Any other restriction is self-imposed.

Campsite is not legally defined so this is something of a grey area. So whether a campsite is set up, in the process of being set up, or being identified is irrelevant.

Whether or not alcohol is present is debatable. Some parks prohibit alcohol or consumption of alcohol- but I'm not aware of any restriction prohibiting both alcohol and firearms outside of "CCW" licensee restrictions. Bear in mind, Im not defending consumption of alcohol while in possession of a firearm- but I believe you can be in possession of both without violating the law.

BlackReef
02-12-2008, 11:06 AM
High capacity magazines are not illegal to possess, but you cannot manufacture, buy, sell or lend them to anyone. Any other restriction is self-imposed.




Actually I believe the law simply says Manufacture, Import, Sell

CitaDeL
02-12-2008, 11:35 AM
Actually I believe the law simply says Manufacture, Import, Sell

12020. (a) Any person in this state who does any of the following
is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year
or in the state prison:

(2) Commencing January 1, 2000, manufactures or causes to be
manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or
exposes for sale, or who gives, or lends, any large-capacity
magazine.

:detective:

Uberdummy
02-12-2008, 11:55 AM
The official California state park web site for Ocotillo Wells SRVA specificly says "No loaded firearms are allowed"

That may be, but at the actual location (last time I was there anyway) that regulation is not posted anywhere.

Rob P.
02-12-2008, 11:59 AM
Rob P,

I fail to see how 12034 criminalizes the possession of loaded pistols, revolvers, and AOWs if the occupant is not in violation of PC 12031. And sub section (a) only applies to the driver or owner of the vehicle allowing "...any other person to carry...".


http://law.justia.com/california/codes/pen/12020-12040.html


http://law.justia.com/california/codes/fgc.html

I think you answered your own question. A person cannot carry a loaded firearm in a vehicle. In order to either put or get the firearm in this case into/out of the car, one would have to "carry" it in some manner. You could throw it inside the car but you couldn't retrieve it without violating the law. Hence, the mere presence of the loaded Glock in the car is a presumption that someone "carried" it there or will have to "carry" it from there.

The car was in a public place as they were camping in the desert.

The end result is that the court would find someone in violation of 12031 and the appeals court most likely wouldn't reverse that finding based on the logic I outlined above.

I also believe it is a violation of federal law to have a loaded handgun in a vehicle but I'm too busy to look that up right now.

12031. (a) (1) A person is guilty of carrying a loaded firearm when he or she carries a loaded firearm on his or her person or in a vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an incorporated city or in any public place or on any public street in a prohibited area of unincorporated territory.

1911_sfca
02-12-2008, 12:03 PM
:sleeping:

Rob P.
02-12-2008, 12:11 PM
Interesting. Thanks for the insight about PC12034.

You say you carry every day and have no "CCW" license. Do you carry openly or carry an unloaded weapon in a locked case? I'm curious about the practicality of daily "California Carry" sans a license to carry.

Open carry has been discussed here many times with both hot & cold responses. I carry because I have a need to yet I do not have a CCW. This means I must openly carry my weapon. If I am out and about, I do so in a belt holster, unloaded, with a magazine pouch on my belt while in "restricted" areas. Otherwise I carry loaded or my weapon is locked in a case (school zones).

The practicality of it is that your belt weighs a ton, your pants don't fit you unless you're carrying, and you wind up resembling batman in that you have to have everything under the sun on your "utility" belt. The biggest downside is that you also don't have much room for spontaneity and you WILL BE stopped if you're in town while doing this.

I wouldn't recommend doing this to anyone just for the "fun" of it. There's a lot of hassle involved and you MUST KNOW the rules.

gunn
02-12-2008, 12:26 PM
The official California state park web site for Ocotillo Wells SRVA specificly says "No loaded firearms are allowed"

Good point. State Parks != National Parks != National Forests != BLM Land

CitaDeL
02-12-2008, 1:13 PM
Good point. State Parks != National Parks != National Forests != BLM Land

uhm... this is full of fail.

CitaDeL
02-12-2008, 1:23 PM
I think you answered your own question. A person cannot carry a loaded firearm in a vehicle. In order to either put or get the firearm in this case into/out of the car, one would have to "carry" it in some manner. You could throw it inside the car but you couldn't retrieve it without violating the law. Hence, the mere presence of the loaded Glock in the car is a presumption that someone "carried" it there or will have to "carry" it from there.

The car was in a public place as they were camping in the desert.

The end result is that the court would find someone in violation of 12031 and the appeals court most likely wouldn't reverse that finding based on the logic I outlined above.

Quote:
12031. (a) (1) A person is guilty of carrying a loaded firearm when he or she carries a loaded firearm on his or her person or in a vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an incorporated city or in any public place or on any public street in a prohibited area of unincorporated territory.

I also believe it is a violation of federal law to have a loaded handgun in a vehicle but I'm too busy to look that up right now.

This is why I believe there was some wiggle room in the application of PC12034,... the location plays an important part as to whether or not there was a loaded weapon violation. When a person is in a location other than inside city limits or a prohibited area of unincorporated territory- a loaded firearm is not a violation under PC12031.

pepsi2451
02-12-2008, 1:31 PM
I have heard of people returning to their truck after hunting and getting threatened about a loaded rifle leaning up against the truck.

Liberty1
02-12-2008, 2:40 PM
This is why I believe there was some wiggle room in the application of PC12034,... the location plays an important part as to whether or not there was a loaded weapon violation. When a person is in a location other than inside city limits or a prohibited area of unincorporated territory- a loaded firearm is not a violation under PC12031.

Thats correct. Thank you for stating more clearly what I was trying to convey.

The driver or owner of the vehicle would not be in violation of PC 12034(a) when outside of an incorporated city or outside the prohibited area of unincorporated territory.

It is also key to note that 12034(a) doesn't apply to the possessor of the loaded firearm, just the driver or owner of the vehicle. And 12034(a) has the crime element requiring the driver or owner to have "knowledge" of the loaded firearm. Since it is a misdemeanor there is a higher burden of proof in which all the elements of the crime, including proving "knowledge", must be committed in the presence for an officer or arresting person before being cited or arrested for the violation.

Shotgun Man
02-12-2008, 2:42 PM
If you are not licensed to carry concealed you may not conceal a firearm on your person or in your vehicle. First time offense is a misdemeanor.

Good analysis. I looked at the link you posted and couldn't find the part of how the first time's a misdeamenor.

"12020. (a) Any person in this state who does any of the following is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison:

[...]"

Unless I'm missing something, it seems to me that whether you are charged with a felony or misdemeanor will mostly lie in the discretion of the D.A.

Liberty1
02-12-2008, 2:52 PM
...getting threatened about a loaded rifle leaning up against the truck.

That is not a violation of the F&G code:

2006. It is unlawful to possess a loaded rifle or shotgun in any
vehicle or conveyance...


Yes, LE can threaten unlawfully. But that is why I would even suggest to our hunting friends that they carry a recorder to catch that "warning" on tape or to even defend against an unlawful citation or arrest. And then feel free to make a complaint aginst the LEO for such action.

As with anything that can lead to legal issues it is good to have friendly witnesses but evidence on tape is still king!

Officer: Is that rifle loaded?

You: Yes Sir, I'm was hunting and have my license.

Officer: It's touching the outside of the truck I could write you up you know!

You: Sir, that is not a violation. It is not inside the truck.

Officer: I don't give a *(&%^. The law is what I say it is. Give me your ID you just earned a cite and I'm taking your rifle as evidence.

You get that on tape and you can take it to the bank.

Shotgun Man
02-12-2008, 2:54 PM
That is not a violation of the F&G code:




Yes, LE can threaten unlawfully. But that is why I would even suggest to our hunting friends that they carry a recorder to catch that "warning" on tape or to even defend against an unlawful citation or arrest. And then feel free to make a complaint aginst the LEO for such action.

As with anything that can lead to legal issues it is good to have friendly witnesses but evidence on tape is still king!



You get that on tape and you can take it to the bank.

Are there any laws against surreptitious recording like that?

Liberty1
02-12-2008, 3:05 PM
Not in CA. The general rule is if you are in a public place you have no expectation of privacy. And if you are ever in an interrogation room or speaking to an officer and they turn off the tape and say, "So...off the record..." bet that you are still being taped! So feel free to tape them during any encounter at work, on the street, or at home. And I suspect that officers have no expectation of privacy when acting in their official capacity but haven't seen any case law on that.

Carry a recorder. The freedom you save may be you own!

Most recording laws at the fed. or state level deal with phones or privileged conversations in a private place in doors. But be sure to check the state you're in with your goggle fu.

Liberty1
02-12-2008, 3:08 PM
I also believe it is a violation of federal law to have a loaded handgun in a vehicle but I'm too busy to look that up right now.

Never heard of that one. Please cite when you have the time.

4D5auto
02-12-2008, 4:04 PM
PC and F&G codes have different definitions. BLM is changing attitudes, (which I would be weary of) and you don't need a CCW for open or concealed carry while in the National Forest.

CitaDeL
02-12-2008, 4:09 PM
Good analysis. I looked at the link you posted and couldn't find the part of how the first time's a misdeamenor.

"12020. (a) Any person in this state who does any of the following is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison:

[...]"

Unless I'm missing something, it seems to me that whether you are charged with a felony or misdemeanor will mostly lie in the discretion of the D.A.

That's because the violation is in PC12025-

12025.(b) Carrying a concealed firearm in violation of this section is punishable, as follows:

(1-6 detail modifiers that make a concealed firearm a felony- including, previous conviction of a felony, active member of a street gang, possession of a stolen firearm, prior property crime, prior drug crime, .. yada yada yada.)

7) In all cases other than those specified in paragraphs (1) to (6) inclusive, by imprisonment in a county jail not to exceed one year, by a fine not to exceed one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both that imprisonment and fine.

I may be wrong in the 'first-time' offense issue, but I'm reasonably certain I read it somewhere. Nevertheless, as long as you're not commiting other crimes or part of a criminal street gang, etc. its probably going to be a misdemeanor that will net someone without a criminal record with probation. Not a lawyer, just a laymen's interpretation.

Shotgun Man
02-12-2008, 4:27 PM
That's because the violation is in PC12025-



I may be wrong in the 'first-time' offense issue, but I'm reasonably certain I read it somewhere. Nevertheless, as long as you're not commiting other crimes or part of a criminal street gang, etc. its probably going to be a misdemeanor that will net someone without a criminal record with probation. Not a lawyer, just a laymen's interpretation.


Yeah, I'm wrong. I was reading the wrong statute! Another boardmember also told me this.

So I've proven that I'm not the best reader of statutes.

But on another point, it seems to me that provided the concealable firearm is lawfully yours (i.e., you didn't steal it), even repeated violations of 12025 will be a misdemeanor as long it is unloaded or even if it's loaded providedd you are the registered owner.

Liberty1
02-12-2008, 4:42 PM
12025 (a)(4) Where the person is not in lawful possession of the firearm,
as defined in this section, or the person is within a class of
persons prohibited from possessing or acquiring a firearm pursuant to
Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the
Welfare and Institutions Code, as a felony.

A misdemeanor conviction of 12025 may result in falling under the above section. Read 12021 and 12021.1. They're fun! You may be right but I don't think so.

Richie Rich
02-12-2008, 7:01 PM
It isn't that simple. My truck is my RV. You can tell 'cause my rifle's right next to the sleeping bag. Does that count?

So I can't sleep in the bed of my truck with a loaded firearm by my side? Because I have, and I will continue to do so. I would think the 'campsite clause' would exempt this rule. Probably not to some hellbent ranger or cop trying to bust up your party or lovefest, though.

Resident LEOs speak up please. Or someone with some real experience.


Count me in this group. After being threatened by a group of drunken skinheads one night while camping out in the middle of nowhere and the presence of my shotgun being the only thing that prevented me from being beaten, robbed or worse I will never camp out in the middle of nowhere without a loaded firearm by my side.

I have also heard stories about people being hassled and or a few arrests for placing firearms on the tailgate of a truck while taking a break from shooting, while in an open, legal shooting area. (secondhand info, take it as you will).

Rob P.
02-12-2008, 8:20 PM
This is why I believe there was some wiggle room in the application of PC12034,... the location plays an important part as to whether or not there was a loaded weapon violation. When a person is in a location other than inside city limits or a prohibited area of unincorporated territory- a loaded firearm is not a violation under PC12031.

You're focusing on the wrong part of the code section. The section says "or" right after the part about having a loaded firearm in the vehicle in a public place. So it's:

1) Loaded firearm;
2) on your person; or
3) in a vehicle;
4) while in a public place

OR

5) on any public street in an incorporated city

OR

6) in any public place; or
7) on any public street;
8) in unincorporated areas; or
9) prohibited areas

There is no "wiggle room" when it comes to loaded firearms.

Liberty1
02-12-2008, 9:06 PM
Rob P.

In "People vs Knight-CA 2004" the prosecutor and trial court held the same interpretation as you do. The appellate court disagreed. It gets good starting on page 6:

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data2/californiastatecases/c045858.pdf

Liberty1
02-12-2008, 9:31 PM
...and you don't need a CCW for...concealed carry while in the National Forest.

PC 12025 applies state wide even on Nat. Forest land. OC is the legal way to go if you don't want to lock it up.

Rob P.
02-12-2008, 9:45 PM
I am not infallible and I agree that Knight says that there are 2 different possibilities - in vehicle while in incorporated place and/or in vehicle while in prohibited area of unincorporated place.

I would still err on the side of caution and NEVER have a loaded weapon inside a vehicle. This applies to ME as I do not camp in my car/truck/rv. YMMV.

Liberty1
02-12-2008, 9:53 PM
I am not infallible and I agree that Knight says that there are 2 different possibilities - in vehicle while in incorporated place and/or in vehicle while in prohibited area of unincorporated place.

I would still err on the side of caution and NEVER have a loaded weapon inside a vehicle. This applies to ME as I do not camp in my car/truck/rv. YMMV.

Knight is still the ruling case on 12031. Thats how it was taught in a legal up-date I got at work back then. But caution has its virtues. One has to be very familiar with the discharge laws which trigger 12031's "prohibited area" when in unincorporated territory.

And it was 18 months from Knights arrest until the appellate court decision remanding it back to trial court for suppression of evidence. We don't really know when he was released.:eek:

pullnshoot25
02-12-2008, 10:03 PM
Why did the OP's friend submit to a search in the first place?

Liberty1
02-12-2008, 10:25 PM
Also for loaded issues, if one hasn't read it yet, all gun owners should read "People vs Clark 1996" dealing with the definition of a 12031 loaded firearm. http://login.findlaw.com/scripts/callaw?dest=ca/caapp4th/45/1147.html

and as always: http://www.paul.net/guns/CaliforniaOpenCarry.pdf

FreedomIsNotFree
02-12-2008, 10:26 PM
I dont believe Knight is quite the slam dunk some make it out to be. The court did not find that a public road in an UNincorporated area couldn't be a prohibited area. They simply stated that the prosecution made no attempt to argue such...the prosecution thought it was a slam dunk and didn't realize they had a burden to prove the defendant was carrying illegally. The court held that in order to meet that burden the prosecution must show that the defendant had a loaded firearm:

(1) while in any public place in an incorporated city;
(2) while on any public street in an incorporated city;
(3) while in any public place in a prohibited area of
unincorporated territory; or (4) while on any public street in a
prohibited area of unincorporated territory.

The court held that the prosecution did not meet this burden during the suppression hearing. I believe this case has more to do with a sloppy prosecution that anything else.

Liberty1
02-12-2008, 10:47 PM
The court held that the prosecution did not meet this burden during the suppression hearing. I believe this case has more to do with a sloppy prosecution that anything else.

The court held that in order to meet that burden the prosecution must show that the defendant had a loaded firearm (in a prohibited area)

Agreed. It was poorly prosecuted. Just F&G 2006 for the loaded shotgun in the vehicle would have given them PC to arrest.

4D5auto
02-12-2008, 10:55 PM
PC 12025 applies state wide even on Nat. Forest land. OC is the legal way to go if you don't want to lock it up.


It's been since the mid 80's when I used to read from the PC and look up the F&G code in the PC. Guess they could site you from both if they wanted to, then let the Attorneys and court hash it out. When I did a lot of hunting, it was with the F&G Code in mind while in the Nat. Forest, the F&G guys and Forest Service personal went on the F&G Codes. Like I say, it's been a long while and things do change, a loaded weapon in the PC had a different definition than a loaded weapon in the F&G Code, at least it did in the 80's.Example, back then, it stated in the F&G Code, you may carry a loaded weapon, while going to or coming from a hunting or fishing trip. I know, that sounds crazy, but that's how it read. I'm sure things have changed since then..

Liberty1
02-12-2008, 11:25 PM
It's been since the mid 80's when I used to read from the PC and look up the F&G code in the PC. Guess they could site you from both if they wanted to, then let the Attorneys and court hash it out. When I did a lot of hunting, it was with the F&G Code in mind while in the Nat. Forest, the F&G guys and Forest Service personal went on the F&G Codes. Like I say, it's been a long while and things do change, a loaded weapon in the PC had a different definition than a loaded weapon in the F&G Code, at least it did in the 80's.Example, back then, it stated in the F&G Code, you may carry a loaded weapon, while going to or coming from a hunting or fishing trip. I know, that sounds crazy, but that's how it read. I'm sure things have changed since then..

Ok you jogged my memory. There is an exemption to 12025 for hunting and fishing (12031, and other codes like CCR 4313 (State Park Regulation) will still apply depending on where you are).

http://law.justia.com/california/codes/pen/12020-12040.html

12027. Section 12025 does not apply to, or affect, any of the
following:

(g) Licensed hunters or fishermen carrying pistols, revolvers, or
other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person while
engaged in hunting or fishing, or transporting those firearms
unloaded when going to or returning from the hunting or fishing
expedition.

GuyW
02-13-2008, 2:54 PM
...you don't need a CCW for ... concealed carry while in the National Forest.

...