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ruchik
12-03-2013, 1:28 PM
If you fire a weapon in self-defense after a home invasion, are the police allowed to search your home with or without your consent for evidence?

riddler408
12-03-2013, 1:30 PM
Yes of course. An investigation will ensue to determine whether or not the shoot was actually justifiable homicide. If you kill the person of course. Regardless. Yes they will search your house for evidence I am sure. I just took a ccw course, all that good stuff was covered.

ruchik
12-03-2013, 1:40 PM
Gotcha. IIRC, the gun used in the shooting will be taken for evidence, and that's a whole different headache to sort out getting it back.

Short of anything illegal, are officers also allowed to take any other, legal weapons as evidence too?

billofrights
12-03-2013, 1:52 PM
If you didn't use them in fending off the assault, there's no reason for them to take any other weapons. Anything not used in self-defense ought to be locked in the safe before the cops show up anyway.

CCWFacts
12-03-2013, 4:25 PM
The author's main premise is that the 911 call is incriminating evidence and should be treated as such, going so far as to suggest that the home defender should have his attorney make the call. A great many contributors to the book disagree with the author along those lines. I disagree as well, but the premise is valid, in that 911 calls are literally statements made to police without benefit of having your attorney present.

Yup. I would not have my attorney make the call. That is fraught with problems, one of them being delaying medical care to anyone who has been shot, and the other being that it looks very guilty. Instead, keep the 911 call extremely simple and factual: "Someone has broken into my home. I feared for my life and shot him. I might still be in danger. Please send an ambulance and police immediately." Something that simple! When the police arrive, repeat it: "I feared for my life and acted in self-defense. This is a serious matter and I would like to speak with my attorney before I make any more statements."

SVT-40
12-03-2013, 5:04 PM
If you fire a weapon in self-defense after a home invasion, are the police allowed to search your home with or without your consent for evidence?

Think about it... You called the police and told them a "home invasion" occurred at your home...and you shot at least one of the suspects..

Common sense should tell you that the first thing they will do when they arrive is search your home for additional suspects.....

If during that search they find anything illegal it will be admissible in court.....

After that first search for suspects..., and if you refuse to let them search further they will get a search warrant.

Your home is a crime scene....

Shanghai guy
12-03-2013, 5:20 PM
Can they search your safe after such an incident?

Anything not used in self-defense ought to be locked in the safe before the cops show up anyway.

Dutch3
12-03-2013, 5:21 PM
Think about it... You called the police and told them a "home invasion" occurred at your home...and you shot at least one of the suspects..

Common sense should tell you that the first thing they will do when they arrive is search your home for additional suspects.....

If during that search they find anything illegal it will be admissible in court.....

After that first search for suspects..., and if you refuse to let them search further they will get a search warrant.

Your home is a crime scene....

That does make sense. It happened near here a week ago. Attempted home invasion robbery. One or more of the subjects entered the home with weapons and the homeowner shot one of them, who later died.

The last I read, investigators were stating the shooting appeared to be justified, but would be fully investigated to determine whether any charges would be filed against the homeowner.

meaty-btz
12-03-2013, 5:21 PM
Think about it... You called the police and told them a "home invasion" occurred at your home...and you shot at least one of the suspects..

Common sense should tell you that the first thing they will do when they arrive is search your home for additional suspects.....

If during that search they find anything illegal it will be admissible in court.....

After that first search for suspects..., and if you refuse to let them search further they will get a search warrant.

Your home is a crime scene....
So what, we should expect them to want to search our underwear drawer? (arguable fishing for drugs because most home invasions are on drug houses/gangs/etc).

How about access to your safe or gun safe, is that how far the can search?

Or are we talking plain sight here and relevant areas to the crime? Tossing your entire house seems a bit "excessive" in an SD shoot without something reasonable to drive a deep investigation of the whole place and all sock drawers.

JoshuaS
12-03-2013, 5:37 PM
I would suspect, too, that at least if it is not a very black and white case, they may well seize other weapons until they clear you. Or at least get a warrant to do the same.

NytWolf
12-03-2013, 5:40 PM
If you didn't use them in fending off the assault, there's no reason for them to take any other weapons. Anything not used in self-defense ought to be locked in the safe before the cops show up anyway.

Can they legally (ask to) go into your locked safe to inspect its contents?

18Dmedic
12-03-2013, 5:53 PM
That is exactly what you should say. Perfect.

rickster1269
12-03-2013, 5:59 PM
This
http://www.crazytruestories.com/cali-man-shot-in-face/

Epaphroditus
12-03-2013, 6:05 PM
Call 911 asking for police and ambulance use the phrase "home invasion". Render first aid. Call your lawyer. Don't say anything except as advised by your lawyer. Be prepared for multiple colonoscopy procedures.

dave_cg
12-03-2013, 6:41 PM
Yup. I would not have my attorney make the call. That is fraught with problems, one of them being delaying medical care to anyone who has been shot, and the other being that it looks very guilty. Instead, keep the 911 call extremely simple and factual: "Someone has broken into my home. I feared for my life and shot him. I might still be in danger. Please send an ambulance and police immediately." Something that simple! When the police arrive, repeat it: "I feared for my life and acted in self-defense. This is a serious matter and I would like to speak with my attorney before I make any more statements."

Waaaaay too many words. Just say: "A man has been shot. Please send an ambulance immediately." Then STFU. Do you think they *won't* roll a cruiser in response to a "man has been shot" 911 call? You'll get your chance for a nice chat with the nice officer all the same and just as soon.

Next use your second phone to call your lawyer, because 911 will make you stay on the line.

Germz
12-03-2013, 6:49 PM
someone had posted an article in another thread and I am no longer able to find it. it was really good and i beat myself that i didn't save it.

SVT-40
12-03-2013, 8:19 PM
Can they search your safe after such an incident?

Maybe... Did you provide them with the gun used to defend yourself?

Did you play games?

If you act like a victim 99 % of the time you will be treated like a victim..

Play games and hide evidence, and you will be treated like a suspect.

If your safe is locked, and there is clear evidence that your story is "reasonable", based on what evidence is at the location...

Then in all likelihood no... The only "search" would be for additional suspects or evidence..So if the suspect(s) were in a room, and handled items, the cops will be in that room to gather evidence....

CBR_rider
12-03-2013, 8:21 PM
If you fire a weapon in self-defense after a home invasion, are the police allowed to search your home with or without your consent for evidence?

Without your consent (and without getting into the exact circumstances of whatever the actual situation is), they will most likely be checking anywhere/everywhere suspect(s) can be hiding and where victim(s) may be. They can ask to search anything/everything they want... doesn't mean you have to allow them to search in your desk drawer or something. Be advised that they will likely be writing a search warrant anyway if there is any indication that things are not simply a "home invasion."

Some of the ridiculous suggestions such as having your lawyer call and not saying a single word, only saying "a man has been shot" on 911, etc are great ways to get search warrants written and to further obfuscate things. If you are so worried about your little bit of weed in your closet, an AR15 without a bullet button, etc a great way to ensure those things are found is to make things look as fishy as possible and have the agency write a search warrant. Its also a good way to get multiple firearms seized because since you aren't saying a word LEO's may not have any idea which firearm(s) you actually used nor will they know that you are fending off a vicious home invasion as opposed to getting into a dispute with an old friend. You'd be a fool if you think murders have not been committed and then staged to look like self defense scenarios.

SVT-40
12-03-2013, 8:23 PM
Waaaaay too many words. Just say: "A man has been shot. Please send an ambulance immediately." Then STFU. Do you think they *won't* roll a cruiser in response to a "man has been shot" 911 call? You'll get your chance for a nice chat with the nice officer all the same and just as soon.

Next use your second phone to call your lawyer, because 911 will make you stay on the line.

Take this advice, and expect to have your house surrounded and the officers to treat everyone inside as a suspect...

After all you gave them no choice.. How do they know it was a self defense shooting.

For all they know your a homicidal barricaded maniac...

Tell the truth... You shot a home invader....Establish immediately that you are a victim....after all if it's a legitimate use of force, and you acted in a reasonable manner you really don't have to fear the truth.

If you play games it will come back to haunt you...

CBR_rider
12-03-2013, 8:30 PM
For all they know your a homicidal barricaded maniac...

I can think of three times just this year that a murder suspect (definitely NOT a law abiding citizen who had to use deadly force to defend themselves or others) called 911 themselves and said something very similar to "someone has been shot" or "I just shot someone" and left it at that. And in one of those cases the suspect was more than happy to try assaulting officers...

marlin357
12-03-2013, 8:46 PM
So what, we should expect them to want to search our underwear drawer? (arguable fishing for drugs because most home invasions are on drug houses/gangs/etc).

How about access to your safe or gun safe, is that how far the can search?

Or are we talking plain sight here and relevant areas to the crime? Tossing your entire house seems a bit "excessive" in an SD shoot without something reasonable to drive a deep investigation of the whole place and all sock drawers.

Not really. I remember as a kid growing up in Manhattan Beach, a number of home invasions. These weren't drug houses, and they certainly weren't against rival gang members and family; they were due to the flaunted wealth of all the doctors, lawyers, and corporate execs who live there. $60K+ cars, two million dollar plus 2 and 3 story McMansions as we called them, and designer clothes all scream "ROB THIS HOUSE!"

As for full access for the police after you just shot someone, I think it's to be expected. If you refuse, they WILL get a search warrant. It's not an IF thing, they WILL: you just shot someone who broke into your home, it is now a crime scene.

As far as not incriminating yourself when you make the call, the four words I could find is "I was just attacked." Followed by "please send police and an ambulance to (location.)" and hang up. They will likely call you back - DON'T ANSWER. 911 dispatchers can see your number on their screen whether or not your cell phone or you phone company blocks your number (private caller has no effect on 911.) If you're on a cell phone with 911 for more than a few seconds, the dispatcher can even see your lat/long and update it as needed (it's not foolproof, so be sure to give you location.)

Then, call your attorney, immediately.

Shanghai guy
12-04-2013, 4:34 AM
Thanks for the info, and for the benefit of your experience - both are appreciated. I have followed your posts on this forum for awhile now, and more than once you've helped me learn a lot.

Maybe... Did you provide them with the gun used to defend yourself?

Did you play games?

If you act like a victim 99 % of the time you will be treated like a victim..

Play games and hide evidence, and you will be treated like a suspect.

If your safe is locked, and there is clear evidence that your story is "reasonable", based on what evidence is at the location...

Then in all likelihood no... The only "search" would be for additional suspects or evidence..So if the suspect(s) were in a room, and handled items, the cops will be in that room to gather evidence....

sl0re10
12-04-2013, 6:03 AM
Can they search your safe after such an incident?

If someone opens it for them w/o a warrant I think they could.

Which is why no one else in my family can open my gun safe..... You know; if you shot a known criminal in your house, while your squeaky clean Joe tax payer / not up to anything shady (part time meth cook on the side or doing straw purchases for cartels for some extra holiday cash), and the police want to see in your safe and see your stuff... they're the ones acting suspicious.... and referring them to talk to your lawyer (and refusing searches) is the logical response.

I think the other advice I always see in these threads is don't use a gun to defend your house with a lot of value. Be it cost or history. It will be taken into evidence and you may never get it back or it can be damaged while in evidence.

meaty-btz
12-04-2013, 8:07 AM
Not really. I remember as a kid growing up in Manhattan Beach, a number of home invasions. These weren't drug houses, and they certainly weren't against rival gang members and family; they were due to the flaunted wealth of all the doctors, lawyers, and corporate execs who live there. $60K+ cars, two million dollar plus 2 and 3 story McMansions as we called them, and designer clothes all scream "ROB THIS HOUSE!"

As for full access for the police after you just shot someone, I think it's to be expected. If you refuse, they WILL get a search warrant. It's not an IF thing, they WILL: you just shot someone who broke into your home, it is now a crime scene.

As far as not incriminating yourself when you make the call, the four words I could find is "I was just attacked." Followed by "please send police and an ambulance to (location.)" and hang up. They will likely call you back - DON'T ANSWER. 911 dispatchers can see your number on their screen whether or not your cell phone or you phone company blocks your number (private caller has no effect on 911.) If you're on a cell phone with 911 for more than a few seconds, the dispatcher can even see your lat/long and update it as needed (it's not foolproof, so be sure to give you location.)

Then, call your attorney, immediately.

SVT's answer is more spot on. It depends on the "smell" of the incident.

We read about the non-drug home invasions but numerically they are far more common against drug houses or those known to be gang involved or other crimes, usually lots of cash known to be on hand.

Home Invasion.. not just a robbery or a burg.

A good cop can tell if you are BSing or if there is color in the shooting. As he says, if you are victim chances are you will be treated like one.

There are still good cops out there, I've just long ago concluded that rule number one is to never get the cops involved in your life if you can avoid it at all. It is better to avoid the home invasion by hardening the house than having to shoot the guy. One involves cops outside your house, the other involves cops inside your house with plain sight doctrine backing up a laundry list of poorly written laws.

SVT-40
12-04-2013, 8:58 AM
Thanks for the info, and for the benefit of your experience - both are appreciated. I have followed your posts on this forum for awhile now, and more than once you've helped me learn a lot.

Your welcome..I'm glad some of my posts have been helpful...:D

As far as not incriminating yourself when you make the call, the four words I could find is "I was just attacked." Followed by "please send police and an ambulance to (location.)" and hang up. They will likely call you back - DON'T ANSWER. 911 dispatchers can see your number on their screen whether or not your cell phone or you phone company blocks your number (private caller has no effect on 911.) If you're on a cell phone with 911 for more than a few seconds, the dispatcher can even see your lat/long and update it as needed (it's not foolproof, so be sure to give you location.)

Then, call your attorney, immediately.

More super bad info... Never "hang up" after calling the police... If due to a threat just set the phone down... That way any sounds will be recorded...

Remember you want the police to know the truth...That you are the victim of a violent crime..

If you simply hang up and refuse to answer. That is another guaranteed way of having the police believe you are playing games and trying to hide something...

Always stay on the phone with the dispatcher so you can update the responding officers as to any changes in the situation at your home. Tell dispatch where you and your family are in the home, and tell dispatch where any known suspects are... Tell dispatch that you are armed, and that you will "un-arm" yourself when the officers arrive. Give dispatch your clothing description.....

Remember officers are very experienced in dealing with use of force incidents... They have personally been through similar situations.

So they will understand that you will want to talk with a attorney.

BUT remember you must give them enough information so they can believe that you are truly a victim, and not the suspect..

A public safety statement" such as "I was assaulted by a armed intruder in my home... In order to protect my safety and the safety of my family I shot at the intruder...."

Don't tell them that they can't search your home for additional suspects...They will anyway...

Let them do their jobs.. Joint out any known evidence, and be "professional"....

e90bmw
12-04-2013, 3:12 PM
After You Shoot: Your Gun's Hot. The Perp's Not. Now What? (http://www.amazon.com/After-You-Shoot-Your-Perps/dp/1889632260)

An interesting read.
The author's main premise is that the 911 call is incriminating evidence and should be treated as such, going so far as to suggest that the home defender should have his attorney make the call.

A neighbor makes the call......
You make the call. Dial 911, and don't say anything, leave the line open.

The police will show up.
Let them take the intruder away, wounded, preferably dead so there is only one story.

One statement: "I feared for my life and the safety of my family."
Next statement: "Can I have my attorney present while we talk?"

On a side note, some dumb f**k came up my loooong driveway and was beating on my door when my wife was home with the mother-in-law.
He had done this at other houses in the neighborhood.

Had he busted through the door. My wife would have made no hesitation in unloading a whole mag of .40 S&W.

riddler408
12-05-2013, 4:10 PM
Waaaaay too many words. Just say: "A man has been shot. Please send an ambulance immediately." Then STFU. Do you think they *won't* roll a cruiser in response to a "man has been shot" 911 call? You'll get your chance for a nice chat with the nice officer all the same and just as soon.

Next use your second phone to call your lawyer, because 911 will make you stay on the line.

Yes keep it brief, everything you say will be used in court if you go. call a lawyer before the cops even get there. don't answer anything. you will be in a state of shock and might not remember a thing about it the next day

a1c
12-05-2013, 5:06 PM
Yes keep it brief, everything you say will be used in court if you go. call a lawyer before the cops even get there. don't answer anything. you will be in a state of shock and might not remember a thing about it the next day

And therefore open the door for the suspect (if he's still alive) to tell his own version of the story. And look like your zombie state is 5150 worthy. Great idea. :rolleyes:

That's terrible, terrible advice. I don't know if you're an attorney or a LEO (I doubt you're either), and I have no idea why you would advise such strategy.

Don't shut up when the LEOs show up. Just tell the story straight, concise, and mention that you were fearing for your life (and/or that of your family). I heard some noise, got up, grabbed the gun, saw the gun, he looked armed and threatening, came in my direction, I thought he was going to kill me, so I shot him. No more, no less.

That's it. Most of the time, unless the intruder is found with a magful of holes in his back on your front lawn, the LEOs are going to be sympathetic, walk through the home and property to secure it, and write down your info and basic statement. Brew some coffee because it's gonna be a long night. All you gotta do is tell them you'll give them a full statement later at the station. They'll make sure you and your family are OK and will probably stick in the neighborhood for a few hours.

Don't look suspect by shutting up and telling them you're calling a lawyer. Look suspicious, and the cops will be suspicious and wonder what you're hiding. That's when they'll start asking more questions and look through your stuff. Then the DA is going to wonder what you're hiding and if you - the victim - are such a victim after all.

It's mind-blowing that so many people like you automatically seem to assume that the cops and DAs are out to get you if you shot someone who was threatening your life. You've been watching way too many TV shows.

Sunday
12-05-2013, 5:22 PM
Yes of course. An investigation will ensue to determine whether or not the shoot was actually justifiable homicide. If you kill the person of course. Regardless. Yes they will search your house for evidence I am sure. I just took a ccw course, all that good stuff was covered.
I suggest every gun owner take a CCW course because it is fun and you learn lots of important information,,,Beyond gun shop blather.

Sunday
12-05-2013, 5:23 PM
And therefore open the door for the suspect (if he's still alive) to tell his own version of the story. And look like your zombie state is 5150 worthy. Great idea. :rolleyes:

That's terrible, terrible advice. I don't know if you're an attorney or a LEO (I doubt you're either), and I have no idea why you would advise such strategy.

Don't shut up when the LEOs show up. Just tell the story straight, concise, and mention that you were fearing for your life (and/or that of your family). I heard some noise, got up, grabbed the gun, saw the gun, he looked armed and threatening, came in my direction, I thought he was going to kill me, so I shot him. No more, no less.

That's it. Most of the time, unless the intruder is found with a magful of holes in his back on your front lawn, the LEOs are going to be sympathetic, walk through the home and property to secure it, and write down your info and basic statement. Brew some coffee because it's gonna be a long night. All you gotta do is tell them you'll give them a full statement later at the station. They'll make sure you and your family are OK and will probably stick in the neighborhood for a few hours.

Don't look suspect by shutting up and telling them you're calling a lawyer. Look suspicious, and the cops will be suspicious and wonder what you're hiding. That's when they'll start asking more questions and look through your stuff. Then the DA is going to wonder what you're hiding and if you - the victim - are such a victim after all.

It's mind-blowing that so many people like you automatically seem to assume that the cops and DAs are out to get you if you shot someone who was threatening your life. You've been watching way too many TV shows.
Name rank and serial # tel then minimal and you are going to vomit soon and you will talk to them later "with an attorney".

Wallabing
12-05-2013, 6:37 PM
Every statement here telling you to tell the truth to the police condtradicts everything I learned on Calguns for the past 4 years and honestly blows my mind.

My lawyer on standby told me never talk to police, they will do anything, including acting as your friend to get a confession out of you. In the end, it is the DA's choice, not the officer, to make up their mind to charge you.

pastureofmuppets
12-05-2013, 7:03 PM
Some both good and bad advice here, some mixed up in the same post. The one I would highlight as bad is simply saying nothing. Bad idea in so many ways.

Plenty of good courses out there by good instructors all over Cali.

It's not the only one, but the NRA Personal Protection Inside The Home course is a great start and has an attorney or law enforcement officer do the section on law.

Every gun owner should do this. Skills and knowledge.

RickD427
12-05-2013, 8:10 PM
If you fire a weapon in self-defense after a home invasion, are the police allowed to search your home with or without your consent for evidence?

The short answer is "Yes."

The extent of the search is going to be dependent on the circumstances.

Some previous posters have observed that your home would necessarily be a "Crime Scene." It's important to note that a search of home simply because it is a crime scene does not comply with the Fourth Amendment. The landmark case on the question was Mincey v Arizona. At the time, Arizona had a statute that allowed for "Crime Scenes" to be searched without a warrant. An undercover officer went to Mincey's apartment to buy drugs. He entered the apartment and there was a gun battle. Back-up officers made entry. They found the undercover officer dead, Mincey and another occupant of the apartment were wounded. Detectives made an exhaustive search of the apartment and used the recovered evidence to convict Mincey at trial. The U.S. Supreme Court overturned the conviction because the search was unreasonable without a warrant (Mincey was retried without the tainted evidence. The first re-trail ended with a hung jury. He was convicted in the second re-trial). Officers acted properly in entering the apartment and in searching it for suspects and victims, but one the emergency had passed, the search authority evaporated and a warrant was needed to continue.

A crime scene (Mincey) warrant is probably about the easiest search warrant to get.

Many previous posters have commented on the lack of wisdom in giving really vague statements over the phone ("A person has been shot"). I'll second their comments. Responding officers will first secure the scene and then will attempt to identify the victims, suspects, and witnesses. Until those roles are established, expect responding officers to exercise positive control over everyone. During the field investigation, officers are entitled to attach significance to a person's silence when they would be expected to speak. The "right to silence" attaches to a suspect. If the officer hasn't put you into the "suspect" category, don't put yourself there. Earlier this year, the U.S. Supreme Court considered a case where officers treated unexpected silence as an admission (refer to Salinas v. Texas). They held for the officers.

As a more practical matter, if you do not establish yourself as the shooter, then investigators may reasonably search the crime scene (with a Mincey warrant) for any evidence that would: 1) Identify persons present at the location (things like letters and papers including the correspondence and stuff on computer hard drives at the location. I never realized just how much identifying information can be extracted from a computer); and 2) Any firearms. If we don't don't know who fired and/or what weapon was used, then everything goes so the crime lab can compare ballistics. This takes us straight to the gun safe. That's where we would reasonably expect to find the guns. Once an item is in evidence, plan on it staying there for the duration of the trial, and appeal period. We have a duty to preserve evidence for the defense, even if we no longer deem it necessary for the prosecution's case.

The court's have held the "public safety" exception to Miranda for information that is critical to public safety. In the case of a defensive shooting, that would include the number of rounds fired, the direction fired (so that we can located any unintended persons that may have been struck) and any suspects that may be outstanding (so they don't do the same to somebody else). The reason that you fired isn't time critical. That one can wait until you've met with counsel.

If your role is established as a victim. Plan on being treated as a victim. I've responded to several defensive shootings, there's just no realistic basis for the level of paranoia expressed by some posters on this subject.

BruceR
12-05-2013, 9:55 PM
Don't shut up when the LEOs show up. Just tell the story straight, concise, and mention that you were fearing for your life (and/or that of your family). I heard some noise, got up, grabbed the gun, saw the gun, he looked armed and threatening, came in my direction, I thought he was going to kill me, so I shot him. No more, no less.


I had a home invasion burglary just three months ago and I did just about what a1c describes above. I declined to go through an extensive interview because of comments the SO deputy and CSI made -- extensive references to the DA and court case. This made for a convenient time for me to request that I have counsel present before any more statements.

The burglar survived and has now pleaded guilty so I'm just about to the end of this ordeal (and it is one). I just sent off my papers today to start the DROS to get my gun back, which I'll be happy to see again.

When the Sheriffs, EMT, and crime scene investigators came, they had me leave so they could work. It was about eight hours before I could return home. Except for fingerprint dust *everywhere*, things were about back to normal except for my metabolism (adrenaline still flowing).

It wasn't a great experience but it could have been worse, I suppose.

a1c
12-06-2013, 7:49 AM
I had a home invasion burglary just three months ago and I did just about what a1c describes above. I declined to go through an extensive interview because of comments the SO deputy and CSI made -- extensive references to the DA and court case. This made for a convenient time for me to request that I have counsel present before any more statements.

The burglar survived and has now pleaded guilty so I'm just about to the end of this ordeal (and it is one). I just sent off my papers today to start the DROS to get my gun back, which I'll be happy to see again.

When the Sheriffs, EMT, and crime scene investigators came, they had me leave so they could work. It was about eight hours before I could return home. Except for fingerprint dust *everywhere*, things were about back to normal except for my metabolism (adrenaline still flowing).

It wasn't a great experience but it could have been worse, I suppose.

Glad you got through it. It can be pretty traumatic from what I've seen and heard.

Kid Stanislaus
12-10-2013, 8:08 PM
Can they legally (ask to) go into your locked safe to inspect its contents?

They can legally ask you to trim your toe nails if they want.:D But they cannot get into a locked safe w/out a warrant or your cooperation.

Kid Stanislaus
12-10-2013, 8:24 PM
Every statement here telling you to tell the truth to the police condtradicts everything I learned on Calguns for the past 4 years and honestly blows my mind.

My lawyer on standby told me never talk to police, they will do anything, including acting as your friend to get a confession out of you. In the end, it is the DA's choice, not the officer, to make up their mind to charge you.

BINGO!! We have a winner!

Kid Stanislaus
12-10-2013, 8:36 PM
For the record, Bruce, you don't have to see a weapon in CA to be in fear of suffering loss of life or great bodily harm. If somebody who is not an immediate family member, living at the house, FORCES his way in you are LEGALLY PRESUMED to be in fear of suffering loss of life or great bodily harm. (CA Penal Code Title 8, Chapt. 1, 198.5)

Baja Jones
12-12-2013, 9:55 PM
So for all that have attended the really good firearms training institute in Pahrump NV and listened to their lecture on this subject, Horner's advice makes sense. After a defensive shooting, call 911, Identify yourself as the victim of XYZ crime, Give your location, request an ambulance for the criminal due to the fact that you shot them. Give a complete description of yourself and immediate party including what you are wearing. Sit down and wait. When the cops question you, ask the questioner if he/she will be making the decision on whether to file charges and for what. When they answer no that will be up to the DA/ superior, Politely state you are so upset that nothing you can remember would significantly contribute to the investigation and ask if you may speak with the DA / decision maker directly. You pissed no one off, admitted nothing other than the obvious, Reported a crime, and expressed a willingness to cooperate and let the cop out of hours of paperwork. When/if you do sit down with the decision maker you know who will be sitting next to you.

StuckInTheP.R.O.Ca
12-12-2013, 10:35 PM
Take this advice, and expect to have your house surrounded and the officers to treat everyone inside as a suspect...

After all you gave them no choice.. How do they know it was a self defense shooting.

For all they know your a homicidal barricaded maniac...

Tell the truth... You shot a home invader....Establish immediately that you are a victim....after all if it's a legitimate use of force, and you acted in a reasonable manner you really don't have to fear the truth.

If you play games it will come back to haunt you...

Excellent advice! Always provide a brief summary of the circs and make it clear that you are the victim.

Shorthair
12-13-2013, 9:22 AM
Yup. I would not have my attorney make the call. That is fraught with problems, one of them being delaying medical care to anyone who has been shot, and the other being that it looks very guilty. Instead, keep the 911 call extremely simple and factual: "Someone has broken into my home. I feared for my life and shot him. I might still be in danger. Please send an ambulance and police immediately." Something that simple! When the police arrive, repeat it: "I feared for my life and acted in self-defense. This is a serious matter and I would like to speak with my attorney before I make any more statements."

I will copy this and keep it next to where I keep my handgun each night and on my gun safe as a reminder. In the emotion and adrenaline of a situation like shooting a home invader it might be alot to ask of myself to remember to keep it brief with the 911 call. Also I might not be the one making the call. The rest of my guns are always locked in the safe. I think the biggest thing is dont run your mouth beyond this statement and you should be fine. The rest of your guns should be out of sight and securely stored. Less you can say to LE the better without giving the appearace of covering something up the better.

Bainter1212
12-13-2013, 10:42 AM
Remember when you call 911 the very first words out of your mouth should be your location (in case you get cut off....or shot). After you tell them (whatever happened) be sure to repeat that THERE IS NO ACTIVE SHOOTER to the dispatcher, anything to make sure that the police don't run up into your house and shoot you by accident. I have seen cops who were way too eager to draw their weapons and you don't want to be the next accidental shooting victim.

a1c
12-13-2013, 12:11 PM
So for all that have attended the really good firearms training institute in Pahrump NV and listened to their lecture on this subject, Horner's advice makes sense. After a defensive shooting, call 911, Identify yourself as the victim of XYZ crime, Give your location, request an ambulance for the criminal due to the fact that you shot them. Give a complete description of yourself and immediate party including what you are wearing. Sit down and wait. When the cops question you, ask the questioner if he/she will be making the decision on whether to file charges and for what. When they answer no that will be up to the DA/ superior, Politely state you are so upset that nothing you can remember would significantly contribute to the investigation and ask if you may speak with the DA / decision maker directly. You pissed no one off, admitted nothing other than the obvious, Reported a crime, and expressed a willingness to cooperate and let the cop out of hours of paperwork. When/if you do sit down with the decision maker you know who will be sitting next to you.

Some of what you're suggesting here reeks of passive aggressiveness. Of course the cops don't do the charging. So why ask them? That might just piss them off. Don't get on the LEOs bad side with that kind of BS.

wrs916
12-13-2013, 12:15 PM
So for all that have attended the really good firearms training institute in Pahrump NV and listened to their lecture on this subject, Horner's advice makes sense. After a defensive shooting, call 911, Identify yourself as the victim of XYZ crime, Give your location, request an ambulance for the criminal due to the fact that you shot them. Give a complete description of yourself and immediate party including what you are wearing. Sit down and wait. When the cops question you, ask the questioner if he/she will be making the decision on whether to file charges and for what. When they answer no that will be up to the DA/ superior, Politely state you are so upset that nothing you can remember would significantly contribute to the investigation and ask if you may speak with the DA / decision maker directly. You pissed no one off, admitted nothing other than the obvious, Reported a crime, and expressed a willingness to cooperate and let the cop out of hours of paperwork. When/if you do sit down with the decision maker you know who will be sitting next to you.

LEO's will have paperwork regardless. You must not have ever worked within public service, otherwise you'd know that. "If you didn't document it, it never happened".

Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk

Pandanin
12-13-2013, 12:40 PM
I carry in my wallet 2 pieces of paper

1) A card from the United States Concealed Cary Association:
The front says:
Call 911 - "I was afraid for my life and was forced to defend myself. Please send an ambulance right away"

On the back it says:
"If I have given this to you, it has been necessary to take actions to defend innocent life. I am willing to sign a criminal complaint against the perpetrator(s). i will point out witnesses and evidence. As you may have experienced yourself, this is a stressful and traumatic experience for me. Therefore, I wish to make no further statements until I have contacted an attorney and composed myself. I also do not consent to any searches. I will cooperate fully once I have consulted with an attorney and calmed down. As a lawfully armed citizen, I ask for the same courtesy that you would show a fellow officer who was involved in a similar situation. Thank you for your understanding."

2) the business card for my Sheriff with his cell phone #. He told me directly, if ever you use your weapon for self defense, you call me after 911.

xxINKxx
12-14-2013, 7:31 AM
Don't keep illegal stuff in your house for those so worried about police looking around after you just killed an intruder. You make yourselves seem like you have illegal gun items by worrying about the cops looking around. That should be the least of your worries about such an incident.

9w1911
12-14-2013, 8:06 AM
I highly suggest calling your lawyer before you talk to the police. Dont learn this the hard way. it is not your responsibility to get medical care to an intruder you just shot. DO NOT SPEAK TO A DA WITHOUT REPRESENTATION EVER!!!!
How many stories do you guys have to read about a good guy going to jail for protecting himself? dont be that guy.
Of course LEO are pissed when you lawyer up, oh well, its your right to do so.

a1c
12-14-2013, 9:11 AM
I highly suggest calling your lawyer before you talk to the police. Dont learn this the hard way. it is not your responsibility to get medical care to an intruder you just shot. DO NOT SPEAK TO A DA WITHOUT REPRESENTATION EVER!!!!

The DA (or a deputy/assistant DA) is very unlikely to show up at your house after the shooting, unless maybe you're a high profile individual.

How many stories do you guys have to read about a good guy going to jail for protecting himself? dont be that guy.

You hear of a few horror stories here and there, and they're usually not that black and white, and they're often cases where the homeowner/tenant went over the line.

You never hear about the shootings where the homeowner didn't get in trouble, even though that's usually how they go unless the intruder's back is found ridden with bulletholes. Those straight shoots don't make regional or national news. But they happen every day in this country. I know of many cases just in my county. Stop making it sound like the cops and DAs are out to get homeowners/tenants who are defending themselves. That's ridiculous.

Of course LEO are pissed when you lawyer up, oh well, its your right to do so.

You should call your lawyer after the shooting, but don't be the guy who refuses to talk to law enforcement and invokes his attorney instead. You'll be looking like a suspect, and treated as such. And if there is a civil action against you from the intruder or his family, you just opened yourself to suspicion on the part of a potential jury.

RickD427
12-14-2013, 12:47 PM
The DA (or a deputy/assistant DA) is very unlikely to show up at your house after the shooting, unless maybe you're a high profile individual.



You hear of a few horror stories here and there, and they're usually not that black and white, and they're often cases where the homeowner/tenant went over the line.

You never hear about the shootings where the homeowner didn't get in trouble, even though that's usually how they go unless the intruder's back is found ridden with bulletholes. Those straight shoots don't make regional or national news. But they happen every day in this country. I know of many cases just in my county. Stop making it sound like the cops and DAs are out to get homeowners/tenants who are defending themselves. That's ridiculous.



You should call your lawyer after the shooting, but don't be the guy who refuses to talk to law enforcement and invokes his attorney instead. You'll be looking like a suspect, and treated as such. And if there is a civil action against you from the intruder or his family, you just opened yourself to suspicion on the part of a potential jury.

a1c,

Thanks for a well-reasoned posting.

I've never seen, or heard of, a D.A. respond to any shooting involving a private person person. (I am aware that a Deputy D.A. did respond to the stabbing scene in which O.J. Simpson was believed to be responsible, but that is a whole 'nother story. You have to turn off all of the rules concerning crime scenes, and court conduct, in order to deal with that one.)

I also can't recall a situation, in California, where a fully justified shooting has resulted in charges for the victim. Given the size of our state, I'm sure that it's happened, but the frequency has to be extremely small. I am aware of many private person shootings that fall short of the "fully justified" criteria, where folks have tried to present the shooter as being "railroaded" when, in fact, that just wasn't the case.

The real bottom line is that if you conduct yourself as a criminal suspect at the scene of a shooting, you're inviting all of the treatment that goes along with being a suspect.

It's really wise to consult with an attorney following your involvement in a shooting. It's also a good idea to be briefed by an attorney as part of your preparations to be armed.

In the immediate aftermath of a shooting, LEOs will need certain information, really fast (faster than you can reach your attorney), and case law arising out of the Miranda decision permits them to demand it. Please check out a lot of what has been posted under "Public Safety Statements." Most of the content is applied to LEOs, but the law applies to private persons as well.

Other information can very well wait until you have had the opportunity to speak with counsel, and (probably more importantly) have had the opportunity to collect your thoughts, and you've acquired a state of mind to correctly articulate those thoughts. At the "top of the list" of questions that can wait is the all-important "why did you fire?" We just don't need to know that right away. It's not relevant to the emergent tasks the responding LEO has to perform.

SVT-40
12-14-2013, 7:00 PM
I highly suggest calling your lawyer before you talk to the police. Dont learn this the hard way. it is not your responsibility to get medical care to an intruder you just shot. DO NOT SPEAK TO A DA WITHOUT REPRESENTATION EVER!!!!
How many stories do you guys have to read about a good guy going to jail for protecting himself? dont be that guy.
Of course LEO are pissed when you lawyer up, oh well, its your right to do so.

Well then expect to wear some bracelets and spend some time in the slammer....

Because if you give no story the officers will have little choice but to arrest you...

Then get a search warrant and search the entirety of your house including any locked containers (safes) for any possible evidence...

Actually there are really very very few if any guys who have gone to jail in a self defense shooting situation... As long as they acted reasonably there is really no real issue.

Remember whether you tell your story to the arriving officers or two weeks later it will be the same story..

The truth never changes..

So if your telling the truth, and acted reasonably there is really no reason to delay in telling your story...

OleCuss
12-15-2013, 4:21 AM
I think it is worth going back and reading Post #35 by RickD427. Understand that one.

My thoughts? The idea of not talking to the cops is not going to work out well for you at all. If you want to look like the perp and like you're hiding something the DA needs to prosecute - completely shut up when the cops show up.

Spilling your guts and speculating is also stupid. Don't do that.

You tell the cops that someone was trying to kill you and yours. You had to shoot them to save your life.

Show the cops the relevant evidence. It was self-defense which means that the evidence will favor you, right? So make sure they actually find that evidence.

Tell them that you are traumatized and really don't want to talk about it much. It's kind of a blur and you want to talk to your lawyer.

After you've shown them the evidence and such, then you can effectively shut up. Cops do understand that talking too much is not good - which is why after an officer-involved shooting they typically shut up and work through their lawyer.

But simply providing them the USCCA card and not talking to them at all is a very bad move. There are so many thousands (millions?) of laws that you are almost guaranteed to be in violation of one or more. Acting like you have so much to hide that you won't talk to them at all will reek to high heavens and they will properly suspect that you have much to hide - and they will look for and find stuff to hang you.

Act like you defended yourself from an attack, tell them that you found the incident to be very traumatic, assist them by pointing out relevant evidence - and they'll likely figure you are the victim. And pointing out that you are traumatized means that you've got some reason for minor errors in your story and your reluctance to talk to them about everything under the Sun.

But do call your lawyer after the cops have arrived to control the scene. The idea that you should stay on the phone with anyone prior to the arrival of the cops, however, is kind of silly since there could be other attackers and the distraction of talking to someone on the phone could prove deadly. But make sure you have given them a description and have told them that when the cops are on the scene that you will dis-arm yourself.

jeremy12
12-15-2013, 11:20 PM
If you in fact shot someone - don't give any statements to the police. There will be plenty of opportunities to tell your side of the story later with your attorney present. All you have to do is identify yourself and comply with police instructions. Again, don't give any statements or try to explain anything. Act shaken. Tell that you are not feeling well and want to go to the hospital.

Police is there to investigate not to charge you with a crime. There is nothing you can say that will make the situation better for you. Anything you say they can repeat on the stand so you will be better off taking the time to get the story right.

CBR_rider
12-16-2013, 3:05 AM
If you in fact shot someone - don't give any statements to the police. There will be plenty of opportunities to tell your side of the story later with your attorney present. All you have to do is identify yourself and comply with police instructions. Again, don't give any statements or try to explain anything. Act shaken. Tell that you are not feeling well and want to go to the hospital.

Police is there to investigate not to charge you with a crime. There is nothing you can say that will make the situation better for you. Anything you say they can repeat on the stand so you will be better off taking the time to get the story right.

And this one in from left field!

a1c
12-16-2013, 7:43 AM
And this one in from left field!

No kidding. Poor advice, telling someone to "act". Some people need to shut the hell up.

SVT-40
12-16-2013, 8:51 PM
If you in fact shot someone - don't give any statements to the police. There will be plenty of opportunities to tell your side of the story later with your attorney present. All you have to do is identify yourself and comply with police instructions. Again, don't give any statements or try to explain anything. Act shaken. Tell that you are not feeling well and want to go to the hospital.

Police is there to investigate not to charge you with a crime. There is nothing you can say that will make the situation better for you. Anything you say they can repeat on the stand so you will be better off taking the time to get the story right.

Oh you'll end up in the hospital... At the jail ward....

"Acting" as said above will get you charged...

If you acted reasonably there should be no need to "get your story right"...

As I said above the truth never changes.

Trying to "make" a story "right" will show your dishonesty, and again get you at best arrested, and at the worst charged with murder or manslaughter.

Doheny
12-16-2013, 9:53 PM
If you in fact shot someone - don't give any statements to the police. There will be plenty of opportunities to tell your side of the story later with your attorney present. All you have to do is identify yourself and comply with police instructions. Again, don't give any statements or try to explain anything. Act shaken. Tell that you are not feeling well and want to go to the hospital.

Police is there to investigate not to charge you with a crime. There is nothing you can say that will make the situation better for you. Anything you say they can repeat on the stand so you will be better off taking the time to get the story right.

I'd be more worried about the grammar police if I were you.

Tankhatch
12-17-2013, 1:23 AM
Be aware also, that any thing you say and do, can help you or cost you, in civil suit(s).

CJfever
12-17-2013, 3:36 AM
tag

pastureofmuppets
12-17-2013, 3:58 AM
Some really bad advice on this thread, glad to see it has been circled in red.


Civil suits it seems are where the real stickiness comes when the dust settles - attorneys on behalf of the criminal or their family trying to prove you are negligent, hot headed etc etc.

I recently remember a young guy that broke into a 70 odd year old mans house and got himself shot… the criminals father brought a civil case. Thankfully it got booted if I remember right. That isn't always the case.

One bit of advice that has stuck with me is to keep a file of all training and taken and reference material (Books, podcasts, DVD's etc etc) consumed. I would love to know if that has ever actually helped in a court case to show knowledge and responsibility.

SCMA-1
12-17-2013, 7:58 AM
From Bruce Colodny "CA Gun Attorney:


http://www.gunlaw.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=81&Itemid=100

RickD427
12-17-2013, 9:55 AM
Some really bad advice on this thread, glad to see it has been circled in red.


Civil suits it seems are where the real stickiness comes when the dust settles - attorneys on behalf of the criminal or their family trying to prove you are negligent, hot headed etc etc.

I recently remember a young guy that broke into a 70 odd year old mans house and got himself shot… the criminals father brought a civil case. Thankfully it got booted if I remember right. That isn't always the case.

One bit of advice that has stuck with me is to keep a file of all training and taken and reference material (Books, podcasts, DVD's etc etc) consumed. I would love to know if that has ever actually helped in a court case to show knowledge and responsibility.

Sir,

You've hit a really good point. A person involved in a justified self-defense shooting has a lot more to fear from the civil system than they do from the criminal system.

You've also got to remember that with more than 250 million people in this country, you're going to see some significant "miscarriage of justice" examples. No system is perfect. These examples are quite few and far between, and they often get fixed at the appellate stage. The fact those most critics cite the same examples out of population base of 250 million kinda supports that conclusion.

It's important to note that there is no "quality control" on the filing of a lawsuit. You don't need a legitimate reason to file one. There are processes to expedite the disposition of meritless suits. But there are none to stop their filing. You also should note that California's version of the "Castle Law" (please refer to Penal Code section 198.5) provides no protection against civil suit.

Also, please don't assume that the only plaintiff will be the person whom you intended to shoot. Lawsuits are often filed by persons who were unintentionally struck by gunfire, or whose property was struck by gunfire. It's true that the original suspect may be more culpable for their injuries, but you may have the "deeper pocket." It's the plaintiff's choice who to sue.

The best thing that you can do is to ensure that all of your actions are reasonable, and that they are accurately documented.

Don't try to "outmaneuver" the anticipated lawsuit. That just doesn't work. Lawyers are trained in "Trial Advocacy" so that they can present the facts in the way that best suits their client. To borrow on your example of retaining all of your training materials. A plaintiff's attorney could use that to argue that you were a "vigilante in training." Why would such a person go to such efforts to prepare themselves for a shooting if they weren't really looking forward to the opportunity? Of course, if the opposite were true (you had never received any training) then the same attorney could argue that you were unqualified to make the decisions resulting in deadly force, that you were unskilled in the application of force, and that if you knew what you were doing, his client would still be alive." See where this is going. For every "legal trick" that has been posted with the intent of helping a self-defense shooter, there is legal counter-tactic. You just gotta understand this.

When you get sued, you're going to represented by an attorney, hopefully a well-qualified attorney. Let them do the legal maneuvering. That's what they get paid for. They do it for a living. They're going to do it better than you can. The best that you can do is to ensure they have the best material to work with. Here's some of things that will help:

1) Most importantly, make sure that all of your actions are reasonable. I've never seen a shooting scene where everything was perfect. The standard is "reasonable." You're allowed some margin for error.

2) Make sure that an accurate record is made of the events. Here's the real challenge. If you make a point of acting like a suspect at the scene, expect the initial documentation of the event to reflect your role as a "suspect". That ain't gonna help. It's also important not to make ill-considered statements ("I'm glad that f***** is dead"). Once they're in the record, they'll never go away. My best advice is to cooperate with officers at the scene, ensure that they get all of the emergent info they need from you, and then politely request to defer non-emergent questions until you've had the opportunity to compose yourself and confer with your attorney.

3) Stand-by to wait. The process takes years. I had one case where a deputy-involved shooting occurred in 1983. The civil trial was held in 1992.