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View Full Version : WTK: Where to get off-roster revolvers


briankk
02-07-2008, 2:02 PM
Where do buyers and sellers of unsafe handguns meet to do business? Is there a website, or paper or something?

(I live in San Jose)

THREAD TITLE EDITED FOR CLARITY

Soldier415
02-07-2008, 2:03 PM
:lurk5:

Rob P.
02-07-2008, 2:06 PM
First of all, NO ONE legally buys an "unsafe" handgun in California. You can buy handguns which are not on the "DOJ safe handgun" list but even those that are not on the list aren't "unsafe".

For off-list handguns you need to do a FTF transfer with someone who is a California resident and the firearm has to be physically within California at the time of the transfer. You'll need to use any FFL who is willing to do the transfer and you will have to wait the 10 days. In addition to the purchase price, you will have to pay DROS fees and be legally eligible to own/possess a firearm.

I do not know about the HSC requirements as I do not have one.

As for where to find these handguns, there are lots of websites out there. Google is your friend.

MrTuffPaws
02-07-2008, 2:07 PM
You mean guns not currently on the DOJ approved list, but still legal and registered in CA, right?

emc002
02-07-2008, 2:09 PM
Must... resist... smart *** response... pressure building... head exploding...

Kestryll
02-07-2008, 2:10 PM
I'm going to guess this is an attempt at humor even if it is a weak attempt.

The only way to obtain a handgun that is not on the 'Safe' list is by Private Party Transfer from another person who already owns it in this State.

As far as I am aware any other means is of questionable legality and as such not a topic for discussion here.

Kestryll
02-07-2008, 2:10 PM
Dang you guys type fast!!! :D

Soldier415
02-07-2008, 2:11 PM
Dang you guys type fast!!! :D

Jenkem and Energy Drinks

Rob P.
02-07-2008, 2:12 PM
Dang you guys type fast!!! :D

Situational awareness. And fast tactical response training.

Soldier415
02-07-2008, 2:13 PM
Situational awareness. And fast tactical response training.

We are certified Keyboard Commandos

Kestryll
02-07-2008, 2:17 PM
We are certified Keyboard Commandos


Soldier, on the job...
http://my.core.com/~dleahy/.photos/DigicamPhotos/KeyboardCommando.jpg

Soldier415
02-07-2008, 2:23 PM
Soldier, on the job...
http://my.core.com/~dleahy/.photos/DigicamPhotos/KeyboardCommando.jpg



Truth be told...more like this

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f273/ganjaman415/People/ScrubbAvatar.jpg

M. Sage
02-07-2008, 2:25 PM
First of all, NO ONE legally buys an "unsafe" handgun in California. You can buy handguns which are not on the "DOJ safe handgun" list but even those that are not on the list aren't "unsafe".

For off-list handguns you need to do a FTF transfer with someone who is a California resident and the firearm has to be physically within California at the time of the transfer. You'll need to use any FFL who is willing to do the transfer and you will have to wait the 10 days. In addition to the purchase price, you will have to pay DROS fees and be legally eligible to own/possess a firearm.

I do not know about the HSC requirements as I do not have one.

As for where to find these handguns, there are lots of websites out there. Google is your friend.

HSC requirements are easy. You pay a test fee, ($20, IIRC), you take a simple test, you get your card (if you pass, but if you don't, please don't shoot next to me at the range).

Other ways to get off-roster handguns include having a parent, grandparent son or daughter residing in another state transfer you one.

Be a cop. Exempt, even for personal use.

Buy a single-action or C&R handgun.

Blackpowder.

briankk
02-07-2008, 2:27 PM
You mean guns not currently on the DOJ approved list, but still legal and registered in CA, right?


Yes, all the handguns that were in normal trade before the drop test. I'm looking for an old Dan Wesson .44.

emc002
02-07-2008, 2:28 PM
Jenkem and Energy Drinks

Jenkem IS an energy drink!

Rob P.
02-07-2008, 2:31 PM
HSC requirements are easy. You pay a test fee, ($20, IIRC), you take a simple test, you get your card (if you pass, but if you don't, please don't shoot next to me at the range).

Other ways to get off-roster handguns include having a parent, grandparent son or daughter residing in another state transfer you one.

Be a cop. Exempt, even for personal use.

Buy a single-action or C&R handgun.

Blackpowder.

Another way is to be exempt from the HSC requirement through the various exemptions in the PC.

briankk
02-07-2008, 2:33 PM
[QUOTE=Rob P.;987736]First of all, NO ONE legally buys an "unsafe" handgun in California. You can buy handguns which are not on the "DOJ safe handgun" list but even those that are not on the list aren't "unsafe".

For off-list handguns you need to do a FTF transfer with someone who is a California resident and the firearm has to be physically within California at the time of the transfer. You'll need to use any FFL who is willing to do the transfer and you will have to wait the 10 days. In addition to the purchase price, you will have to pay DROS fees and be legally eligible to own/possess a firearm.

I know all this. Since stores can't deal in guns not on the "safe" list, they pretty much be "unsafe", no? What ever you call them, how is commerce ongoing in handguns not on the "DOJ safe handgun" list, is my question..

pnkssbtz
02-07-2008, 2:49 PM
I know all this. Since stores can't deal in guns not on the "safe" list, they pretty much be "unsafe", no? What ever you call them, how is commerce ongoing in handguns not on the "DOJ safe handgun" list, is my question..No.

They are not "unsafe" they are just not on the "DoJ Safe Handgun List".

The word "safe" in "DoJ Safe Handgun List" is misleading. It could be easily "DoJ Magical Handgun List" as it has nothing to do with regulating handgun safety and everything to do with making a bureaucratic nightmares for vendors wishing to sell handguns in CA.


The only way to LEGALLY purchase a handgun not on the "DoJ Magical Handgun List" is via a "Face to Face" (FTF) private party (PPT) transfer. Where both the seller and the buyer must be present in CA along with the firearm in question.

Or, via intra familial transfers (parent/child) where parent out of state purchases firearm (LEGALLY!) and transfers it to their child (or vice versa).

Or be an LEO and exempt from the "DoJ Magical Handgun List" restrictions.

bwiese
02-07-2008, 2:52 PM
Yes, all the handguns that were in normal trade
before the drop test. I'm looking for an old Dan Wesson .44.

Then you'll have to find a CA resident that already has one and is willing to sell to you PPT.

If the seller lives at some distance from you in CA, a "split PPT" using two CA FFLs, and run as a "gunshow transaction", can be performed.

Many FFLs do not understand/know about this, and expect to 'toke' the FFLs on both ends of the deal a fair amount (more than a typical PPT fee) for going thru the extra grief & time.


Do note that, per 12133PC, single-action revolvers holding 5 or more rounds, with 3" or longer bbls and 7.5" or longer overall length (when measured parallel to bore) are exempt from Rostering requirements and can be imported into CA by FFLs for sale here. There is no legal "permanence of single-action status" or "original design intent" required, and a Californian is free to modify a single-action revolver into a double-action (or vice versa).

The single-action exemption and matters of Rostering really only apply at importation and at moment before DROS 'til moment after 10 day wait/pickup. After that, a revolver can be changed in caliber, bbl length, action type, etc.

Depending on the internal fire-control architecture of the Dan Wesson gun (and if it's dimensionally compliant per 12133PC issues above) an out-of-state vendor may be able to render this Dan Wesson into a single-action revolver by removing the DA sear. (Again, DWs may differ from S&W wheelguns). "Single action" status is gained when the trigger pull does not cock/cycle the gun's hammer, and when the performance of the cocking of the hammer is a decoupled and completely separate movement/action from that of the pulling of the trigger. (Whether the cylinder revolves & relatches into battery from the trigger pull or from the cocking of the hammer is immaterial.)

This above should NOT be attempted unless you:
understand how a Dan Wesson wheelgun's fire control system works;
know this mod is indeed possible (works on typical S&Ws, unknown on others like DW, Colt, Ruger);
that you have confidence that the supplying party or an FFL outside CA can do this mod, and verify that the mod works 100% single-action, before the gun is shipped to the California FFL;

bwiese
02-07-2008, 2:54 PM
I know all this. Since stores can't deal in guns not on the "safe" list, they pretty much be "unsafe", no? What ever you call them, how is commerce ongoing in handguns not on the "DOJ safe handgun" list, is my question.

By direct PPT - and 'consignment' sales in gunshops.

briankk
02-07-2008, 3:05 PM
I really don't care if their safe, or on the list.

Once upon a time, you wanted a gun, you went to the store an bought one, new or used.

Then came the "safe" or "unsafe" or "magical" handguns list, and commerce was restricted to guns on the list in stores licensed to sell guns by the state/feds/whoever. My question is not how to comply with the paperwork regarding new guns. My question is how do the owners of the other 99% of handguns in California, who can not sell through dealers, do business? If I want to buy or sell an old Charter Arms Bulldog from another Californian who might own one, where do we advertise? How do we get in touch?

ldivinag
02-07-2008, 3:58 PM
Jenkem IS an energy drink!

i thought it was gas collected in a balloon after allowing the "liquid" mixture to "ferment" in the sun...

briankk
02-07-2008, 4:11 PM
Bill:

I am not familiar with the mechanism of the .44, if it anything like my DW .357, converting it to single action only would be trivial. It's my understanding that in the day, DW competition shooters did this pretty often, I suspect it's not hard.

Can you site me the law on that? There are lots of DW's f/s all over the free parts of the US, it would be cool to be able to buy one..

TIA

dfletcher
02-07-2008, 4:40 PM
Bill:

I am not familiar with the mechanism of the .44, if it anything like my DW .357, converting it to single action only would be trivial. It's my understanding that in the day, DW competition shooters did this pretty often, I suspect it's not hard.

Can you site me the law on that? There are lots of DW's f/s all over the free parts of the US, it would be cool to be able to buy one..

TIA

If the DW 44 has the same internals as their 357 Model 15, then converting to SA is a matter of removing the sideplate and taking off the DA sear. Very easy to do, although IIRC the wire spring that retains the transfer bar to the trigger was a pain to put back correctly. Having a 3rd hand would have helped.

bwiese
02-07-2008, 4:43 PM
Bill:

I am not familiar with the mechanism of the .44, if it anything like my DW .357, converting it to single action only would be trivial. It's my understanding that in the day, DW competition shooters did this pretty often, I suspect it's not hard.

Can you site me the law on that? There are lots of DW's f/s all over the free parts of the US, it would be cool to be able to buy one..


I can cite you 12133PC, which is the single-action revolver exemption (as long as it's dimensionally compliant - i.e., no snubnoses.) There is no codified or inferrable provision dealing with "original design intent" of a gun's action: what a gun is is the way it operates at the moment of consideration.

I can't cite you any other laws, because there are none: you are indeed allowed to modify your single action handgun into a double action, or vice versa - or cut or extend the barrel length or change the caliber. [For a wheelgun about the only simple things you can't do are have a nonrifled barrel, a buttstock, or have it chambered to shoot shotgun shells - this is why the 45LC/410Ga Taurus Judge and various 45LC/410Ga derringers are not legal to possess, transfer, etc. in CA.]

The single-action revolver exemption in 12133PC only refers to the gun's status at time of sale (DROS) until moment of pickup. In addition, until some unclear areas in 12125PC et seq are resolved about importation, the imported handgun should be modified to single-action status outside of CA before being imported for non-PPT FFL sale to you as an exempt single-action. Once you DROS it and pick it up after 10 days you are indeed free to modify your Dan Wesson Single Action Revolver into a double action revolver.

As an example, the S&W Model 14-3 w/4" bbl is a factory single action revolver. It is legal to import/sell as a non-rostered exempt handgun in CA.

Taking a similar 4" bbl'd S&W 14-4 DA revolver, have it rendered it SA thru DA sear/spring removal outside of CA, and then having it shipped it to a cooperative CA FFL dealer - who in turn transfers it to you as an exempt single-action revolver after DROS & 10 day wait - is perfectly legal.

But I caution you to do a complete analysis, or talk to smart Dan Wesson collectors, about such a mod, the reliability of such a mod (i.e, it can NEVER fire double action), and find someone outside CA you trust to render it into SA form without wrecking the gun.

G17GUY
02-07-2008, 4:47 PM
My question is how do the owners of the other 99% of handguns in California, who can not sell through dealers, do business? If I want to buy or sell an old Charter Arms Bulldog from another Californian who might own one, where do we advertise? How do we get in touch?

I would not consider someone selling a single revolver; PPT, as "conducting business". Usually these types of sales take place by word of mouth. You can also legally put an advertisement in the paper, or online.

Now I got a question for you. How do you sell your old furniture, cars, boats and miscellaneous junk you have?

briankk
02-07-2008, 5:12 PM
Now I got a question for you. How do you sell your old furniture, cars, boats and miscellaneous junk you have?

Craigslist, who won't do gun ads, or ebay, who won't do gun ads, or the local paper, (SJMerc) who won't do gun ads..

M. Sage
02-07-2008, 6:02 PM
I really don't care if their safe, or on the list.

Once upon a time, you wanted a gun, you went to the store an bought one, new or used.

Then came the "safe" or "unsafe" or "magical" handguns list, and commerce was restricted to guns on the list in stores licensed to sell guns by the state/feds/whoever. My question is not how to comply with the paperwork regarding new guns. My question is how do the owners of the other 99% of handguns in California, who can not sell through dealers, do business? If I want to buy or sell an old Charter Arms Bulldog from another Californian who might own one, where do we advertise? How do we get in touch?

Ahhh, it's that kind of misunderstanding...

Once the handgun gets into the state through whatever legal means (someone moves in with it, IFT, LEO purchase, etc.) it can and must be transferred through an FFL. An FFL can buy it and stock it. The handgun roster only applies to importation.

ke6guj
02-07-2008, 6:11 PM
An FFL can buy it and stock it. The handgun roster only applies to importation.You sure about that? I thought that if the FFL buys a non-rostered handgun from anyone, it can't be sold later on to the public. That is why they take non-rostered handguns on consignment, so that they can be resold to the public.

Blackflag
02-07-2008, 6:22 PM
...

bwiese
02-07-2008, 6:37 PM
My question is how do the owners of the other 99% of handguns in California, who can not sell through dealers, do business? If I want to buy or sell an old Charter Arms Bulldog from another Californian who might own one, where do we advertise? How do we get in touch?


Web boards like this, GunBroker, etc. Or consignment cabinet at CA gunshops.

You, as a Californian, can SELL a handgun to a person outside CA on Gunbroker too - just has to be delivered to an FFL.

bwiese
02-07-2008, 6:39 PM
You sure about that? I thought that if the FFL buys a non-rostered handgun from anyone, it can't be sold later on to the public. That is why they take non-rostered handguns on consignment, so that they can be resold to the public.

Correct.

If an FFL "buys" a non-Rostered handgun, that's for his LEO-only cabinet or he sells it to an outta-state party thru an outta-state FFL.

A person can 'consign' a non-Rostered handgun at a gunshop, and I gather it works something like a PPT.

M. Sage
02-07-2008, 9:33 PM
You sure about that? I thought that if the FFL buys a non-rostered handgun from anyone, it can't be sold later on to the public. That is why they take non-rostered handguns on consignment, so that they can be resold to the public.

I'm pretty sure they can. It's just a lot easier to deal consignment...?

MFortie
02-08-2008, 8:29 AM
So, an out-of-state party comes to California with his legally owned in his state non-rostered handgun and decides to sell it -- no bueno? He has to become a CA resident? And send in the $19-imported-into-CA paperwork?

knuckled
02-10-2008, 10:15 AM
So, an out-of-state party comes to California with his legally owned in his state non-rostered handgun and decides to sell it -- no bueno? He has to become a CA resident? And send in the $19-imported-into-CA paperwork?

He needs to become a CA resident. He can sell it without the $19-import paperwork if sold within 60 days of moving to CA.

briankk
02-17-2008, 10:47 AM
This keeps drifting back to a discussion on what kind of paperwork to fill out, which is not what I was asking.

Given that the "Unsafe Handgun Act" has made it impossible for dealers to advertise, display or sell, at least 90% of handguns in CA can no longer be sold through previously established commercial channels, is there a central source of information, a place, a website, a paper, some way, for owners of old Beretta 590s, or Dan Wesson revolvers, or any other "unsafe" handgun to meet and greet and exchange/sell/give away these guns?

I don't want to know about what forms are required, we will assume for this discussion that the paperwork fairy will give us magical dispensation. It's the advertising I'm asking about. I know about consignment. Is there a central listing of consigned guns in CA?

liketoshoot
02-17-2008, 4:04 PM
I don't want to know about what forms are required, we will assume for this discussion that the paperwork fairy will give us magical dispensation. It's the advertising I'm asking about. I know about consignment. Is there a central listing of consigned guns in CA?

If that exists It would be fatastic, but with all the sellers out there all over the state it is impossible logistically do to it.

JeffM
02-17-2008, 4:22 PM
is there a central source of information, a place, a website, a paper, some way, for owners of old Beretta 590s, or Dan Wesson revolvers, or any other "unsafe" handgun to meet and greet and exchange/sell/give away these guns?

No, it's highly decentralized. (and it's probably better that way IMHO).

the paperwork fairy will give us magical dispensation.

I wish I lived in your world. :chris:

ke6guj
02-17-2008, 4:23 PM
I don't want to know about what forms are required, we will assume for this discussion that the paperwork fairy will give us magical dispensation. It's the advertising I'm asking about. I know about consignment. Is there a central listing of consigned guns in CA? No there isn't a central listing of cosigned guns in CA. You just have to find them on your own. If that isn't good enough, then start your own listing for everyone in CA to use.

As bwiese already mentioned, Web boards like this, GunBroker, etc. Or consignment cabinet at CA gunshops.


Some gunstores do update there websites with info regarding used and cosigned guns that they may have. Like turners online gunrack, http://www.turners.com/shop/gunlisting.php .

Roccobro
02-17-2008, 7:12 PM
Petition Cal-Guns Admin to create a sub section for Pre-BS firearms FS. Oh and of course include the location in the title. :D

There are a few of us with outside CA family connections and some with LEO benefits that might be able to help. All you gotta do is ask in the right place (here or on other gun boards) and be specific in your "needs".

Oh, and I request this PPT Non-CRS guns information become a compiled sticky! :D :D :t5:

Justin