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Danz la Nuit
11-28-2013, 12:10 PM
I carry in a CC holster at home.

I place pistol in locked container when traveling in vehicle to buddies house/family members house

I carry in a CC holster at buddies house/family members house with their consent.

This is assuming I am able to park on private property.

--

Any legal issues with this?

Carnivore
11-28-2013, 3:09 PM
Depends on a few things. For the most part any place you can shoot legally you can carry but in the city or incorporated areas carrying CC on private property outside that is accessible by the general public is a no no. It has to be completely fenced and gates closed at the minimum (I lock mine) and you are ok. There are multiple threads on it so do a search and get more precise info.

CWDraco
11-28-2013, 7:32 PM
Why are police getting into your business? That's the question.

Carnivore
11-28-2013, 11:54 PM
Why are police getting into your business? That's the question.

Twice I have dealt with the cops while CC. They were asking about a neighbor of mine that was less then a nice guy. The second time I was working on one of my rental properties and the neighbors called the cops about he noise. One of those "it is 10:01 now shut up" people. Don't blame them it was my fault but we were cleaning up and I hear the "excuse me" in an authoritative voice. Those are the times I am concerned you will get the jerk nosy cop that causes an issue. Both were times were uneventful but I didn't let them know I was armed to just avoid the stupid questions that usually follow.

Quiet
11-28-2013, 11:55 PM
I carry in a CC holster at home.

I place pistol in locked container when traveling in vehicle to buddies house/family members house

I carry in a CC holster at buddies house/family members house with their consent.

This is assuming I am able to park on private property.

--

Any legal issues with this?

Just need to make sure the firearm is unloaded when it is being transported.

Content Kitty
11-28-2013, 11:56 PM
Tagged

CWDraco
11-29-2013, 5:22 AM
Twice I have dealt with the cops while CC. They were asking about a neighbor of mine that was less then a nice guy. The second time I was working on one of my rental properties and the neighbors called the cops about he noise. One of those "it is 10:01 now shut up" people. Don't blame them it was my fault but we were cleaning up and I hear the "excuse me" in an authoritative voice. Those are the times I am concerned you will get the jerk nosy cop that causes an issue. Both were times were uneventful but I didn't let them know I was armed to just avoid the stupid questions that usually follow.

Sounds reasonable and I have had similar experiences as well, but I was talking about....,

"are you carrying and weapons? Any illegal drugs on you? Can I search you, Ok well go ahead and place your hands on the hood of my car and spread your legs, is there anything in your pockets that is going to cut me... Listen..you have the right to remain silent, anything you say...."

If you are the kind of guy who hears these words a lot, I wouldn't be CCing without a license anywhere.

Carnivore
11-29-2013, 10:19 PM
got it.

pastureofmuppets
11-30-2013, 12:45 AM
"are you carrying and weapons? Any illegal drugs on you? Can I search you, Ok well go ahead and place your hands on the hood of my car and spread your legs, is there anything in your pockets that is going to cut me... Listen..you have the right to remain silent, anything you say...."

If you are the kind of guy who hears these words a lot, I wouldn't be CCing without a license anywhere.

What? People that watch a lot of "Cops" on TV?


:D

CBR_rider
11-30-2013, 2:28 AM
"are you carrying and weapons? Any illegal drugs on you? Can I search you, Ok well go ahead and place your hands on the hood of my car and spread your legs, is there anything in your pockets that is going to cut me... Listen..you have the right to remain silent, anything you say...."

Sounds like a line from an 80's cop film..

xpirtdesign
11-30-2013, 5:08 PM
I own a retail store/warehouse dealing with ammunition, reloading supplies, and various firearm related products. My father (who works with me) and I both open carry there while inside the building at all times. Are we in the clear?

ifilef
11-30-2013, 5:52 PM
You can start with page 37:

http://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/agweb/pdfs/firearms/forms/hscsg.pdf?

Armando de la Guerra
11-30-2013, 5:54 PM
Re-read the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. Then come back and explain why you even asked the question in the first place.

Sakiri
11-30-2013, 6:27 PM
Re-read the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. Then come back and explain why you even asked the question in the first place.

Because we have laws infringing on it that'll make our lives hell if we break them because obviously CA doesn't believe the 2nd to exist.

xpirtdesign
11-30-2013, 6:50 PM
You can start with page 37:

http://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/agweb/pdfs/firearms/forms/hscsg.pdf?

Thanks for your help! I'm good to go.

Image Group
11-30-2013, 9:29 PM
I have a CCW and I carried at a deli I owned. Nobody but my wife ever knew I was carrying until one night when a douche decided to try and rob me...Surprise douche! I'm faster than you are at the draw...surprise me... he was faster out the door than I was and managed to escape into a dark alley. When the police showed up they noticed I was carrying under my shirt. Immediately put me down and removed my weapon. I was given my firearm back after they realized I was former LEO and CCW. I pushed the issue regarding me carrying on my personal property and they pretty much told me that being a deli and open to the public it is therefore a public venue and not necessarily private property. Without the CCW I would have been in a bit of poop! Be very careful peeps. The second is not one to lose!

xpirtdesign
11-30-2013, 9:44 PM
FIREARMS IN THE HOME, BUSINESS OR AT THE CAMPSITE
Unless otherwise unlawful, any person over the age of 18 who is not prohibited
from possessing firearms may have a loaded or unloaded firearm at his or her
place of residence, temporary residence, campsite or on private property owned
or lawfully possessed by the person. Any person engaged in lawful business
(including nonprofit organizations) or any officer, employee or agent authorized
for lawful purposes connected with the business may have a loaded firearm
within the place of business if that person is over 18 years of age and not otherwise
prohibited from possessing firearms. (Pen. Code, 25605, 26035.)
NOTE: If a person’s place of business, residence, temporary residence, campsite
or private property is located within an area where possession of a firearm is
prohibited by local or federal l
aws,
such laws would prevail.

This is part that I'm confused about..they are describing it like this as far as I understand..."private property OR business, OR this, OR that..". They didn't say a business that is located on private property, and they didn't say a business that doesn't conduct its operations in public.. After all, wouldn't you think that carrying at a business is because of the fact that you're dealing with the public and don't know who's gonna walk through the door next?

Then again, in front of a Jury of 12, they have to decide whether a reasonable man would have done the same thing given the circumstance if there's that much gray area in the law?

ifilef
11-30-2013, 10:02 PM
I have a CCW and I carried at a deli I owned. Nobody but my wife ever knew I was carrying until one night when a douche decided to try and rob me...Surprise douche! I'm faster than you are at the draw...surprise me... he was faster out the door than I was and managed to escape into a dark alley. When the police showed up they noticed I was carrying under my shirt. Immediately put me down and removed my weapon. I was given my firearm back after they realized I was former LEO and CCW. I pushed the issue regarding me carrying on my personal property and they pretty much told me that being a deli and open to the public it is therefore a public venue and not necessarily private property. Without the CCW I would have been in a bit of poop! Be very careful peeps. The second is not one to lose!


So what? 'Them' cops don't know what they're talking about. It was your business, your place of employment. You don't have to be a darn former LEO and CCW holder to protect yourself at your place of business. You were given your firearm back no doubt because they felt that you did not pose a threat. Is that what they told you-because you were a CCW they weren't going to hassle you about it?

25605. (a) Section 25400 and Chapter 6 (commencing with Section
26350) of Division 5 shall not apply to or affect any citizen of the
United States or legal resident over the age of 18 years who resides
or is temporarily within this state, and who is not within the
excepted classes prescribed by Chapter 2 (commencing with Section
29800) or Chapter 3 (commencing with Section 29900) of Division 9 of
this title, or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions
Code, who carries, either openly or concealed, anywhere within the
citizen's or legal resident's place of residence, place of business,
or on private property owned or lawfully possessed by the citizen or
legal resident, any handgun.
(b) No permit or license to purchase, own, possess, keep, or
carry, either openly or concealed, shall be required of any citizen
of the United States or legal resident over the age of 18 years who
resides or is temporarily within this state, and who is not within
the excepted classes prescribed by Chapter 2 (commencing with Section
29800) or Chapter 3 (commencing with Section 29900) of Division 9 of
this title, or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions
Code, to purchase, own, possess, keep, or carry, either openly or
concealed, a handgun within the citizen's or legal resident's place
of residence, place of business, or on private property owned or
lawfully possessed by the citizen or legal resident.
(c) Nothing in this section shall be construed as affecting the
application of Sections 25850 to 26055, inclusive.

I haven't done further research on these other sections and I'm not going to. I'd advise xpirtdesign not to worry about it-or better yet, carry something concealed at your place of business.

ifilef
11-30-2013, 10:35 PM
I carry in a CC holster at home.

I place pistol in locked container when traveling in vehicle to buddies house/family members house

...


...

Any legal issues with this?

Amend to: "I place my unloaded pistol...

Librarian
12-01-2013, 12:03 PM
I own a retail store/warehouse dealing with ammunition, reloading supplies, and various firearm related products. My father (who works with me) and I both open carry there while inside the building at all times. Are we in the clear?

See the wiki -- http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Unlicensed_Concealed_Carry

Short answer - very likely no problem. Don't go outside armed (to dump the trash, etc) unless the area outside the building is also denied to the public, as fenced and locked.

Librarian
12-01-2013, 12:06 PM
So what? 'Them' cops don't know what they're talking about. It was your business, your place of employment. You don't have to be a darn former LEO and CCW holder to protect yourself at your place of business. You were given your firearm back no doubt because they felt that you did not pose a threat. Is that what they told you-because you were a CCW they weren't going to hassle you about it?

[snip]

I haven't done further research on these other sections and I'm not going to. I'd advise xpirtdesign not to worry about it-or better yet, carry something concealed at your place of business.
I wish it were as clear as you make it out to be, but the cops were right. There is an issue with an owner carrying in his business in areas 'open to the public', much as there is an issue carrying in one's front yard.

bajadan
12-01-2013, 2:12 PM
I wish it were as clear as you make it out to be, but the cops were right. There is an issue with an owner carrying in his business in areas 'open to the public', much as there is an issue carrying in one's front yard.

--> dumb question:(, How do gun shops get away with it when every employee is armed and "apparently this is public area".

Quiet
12-01-2013, 4:12 PM
--> dumb question:(, How do gun shops get away with it when every employee is armed and "apparently this is public area".

gun shop has locked door/gate and buzz people in. therefore it's not open to the "public".

ifilef
12-01-2013, 5:34 PM
I wish it were as clear as you make it out to be, but the cops were right. There is an issue with an owner carrying in his business in areas 'open to the public', much as there is an issue carrying in one's front yard.

Carrying openly in one's front yard differs from carrying concealed in one's place of business or residence.

Do you have a case cite where the owner of a business that is open to the public is prohibited from having a firearm to protect himself? I think the statute is pretty clear.

I believe it would be preposterous that the owner of a retail establishment would have no right under CA law to have a gun on the premises, unless maybe a National Park, post office, etc.

vintagearms
12-01-2013, 5:42 PM
Re-read the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. Then come back and explain why you even asked the question in the first place.

Tell that to the LEO who arrests you. Idiot. :rolleyes:

ifilef
12-01-2013, 5:52 PM
Whoever did the Wiki, thank you. I will go over it.

xpirtdesign
12-01-2013, 6:42 PM
gun shop has locked door/gate and buzz people in. therefore it's not open to the "public".

Actually there's tons of gun shops that dont have gates or buzzers or anything at all in regards to that type of security. Also I know many liquor store owners who also carry.. but Im afraid that the law can be interpreted in many different ways by LEOs even though they aren't meant to be...therefore in the end (sadly) we must rely on 12 jurors to decide whether we were wrong or right.

Tincon
12-01-2013, 7:12 PM
Carrying openly in one's front yard differs from carrying concealed in one's place of business or residence.

Do you have a case cite where the owner of a business that is open to the public is prohibited from having a firearm to protect himself? I think the statute is pretty clear.

I believe it would be preposterous that the owner of a retail establishment would have no right under CA law to have a gun on the premises, unless maybe a National Park, post office, etc.

Your beliefs aside, Librarian is correct about the law. There is a long thread (or several) somewhere, in which all the cases were posted.

ETA: HERE:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=688318

and

http://www.www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=794937&page=2

ifilef
12-01-2013, 8:04 PM
Well, the first part of the first thread seemed to be in agreement. Matter has to be thoroughly researched by an attorney-and each case turns on its facts. However, I would be very surprised if a liquor store owner, restaurant owner, retail store owner, business owner, lawyer, accountant, etc. employee, would need a CCW to carry concealed at their place of business/employment. As to the latter, now company policy may not permit it-that is not relevant here. We are talking about the State law.

Tincon
12-01-2013, 8:06 PM
However, I would be very surprised if a liquor store owner, restaurant owner, retail store owner, business owner, lawyer, accountant, etc. employee, would need a CCW to carry concealed at their place of business/employment.

Well, your surprise notwithstanding, they do need a permit if they are carrying a loaded gun in a public place.

ifilef
12-01-2013, 8:15 PM
Your beliefs aside, Librarian is correct about the law. There is a long thread (or several) somewhere, in which all the cases were posted.

ETA: HERE:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=688318

and

http://www.www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=794937&page=2

Go and try to find some consistency. I don't have the time. Maybe it exists, I doubt it. Appellate divisions/districts will hold differently on similar facts, there may and will be conflicts in appellate holdings-would not surprise me.

I haven't checked the other sections, and that may be important-and I haven't checked the cases...however, the statute I cited seems pretty clear to the layman. Look into the legislative history. There's even a reference to the legislature changing the law in favor of the business person with a gun due to an unfavorable holding in an earlier appellate case.

Librarian
12-01-2013, 9:05 PM
Well, the first part of the first thread seemed to be in agreement. Matter has to be thoroughly researched by an attorney-and each case turns on its facts. However, I would be very surprised if a liquor store owner, restaurant owner, retail store owner, business owner, lawyer, accountant, etc. employee, would need a CCW to carry concealed at their place of business/employment. As to the latter, now company policy may not permit it-that is not relevant here. We are talking about the State law.

Generally, no problem.

But 'in public' without LTC is a problem.

So, for these purposes, what parts of a business open to the public is 'in public'? That's what is fact based for each situation.

For example, it's probably correct to speculate that a 'back room' or 'back office' or a section marked 'employees only' is NOT a 'public place'. The earlier post about a gun store, where one must be 'buzzed in' through a locked door likely describes an area that is not a 'public place'. I wouldn't have a problem believing that the areas behind sales counters are not a 'public place'.

Now, consider an ordinary restaurant.

It might have a back office; the kitchen is probably meant for employees only. But the dining area must be open to any politely behaved member of the public who chooses to eat in the restaurant; that area - the tables, booths, and dining counter etc - would appear good candidates for 'public place' which might require LTC, even for the owner/manager of the restaurant (while it is open for business; when closed, no part of it is likely 'public').

I think it unwise to try to apply a generalized bit of PC to a specific set of circumstances without specific legal advice.

ifilef
12-01-2013, 9:11 PM
I think you may be reading too much into this issue. The act of carrying in your business I would argue is independent right and supersedes whether it is a public place or place open to the public. The statute clearly states 'place of business' or on private property. The whole idea is the right to protect oneself from robberies and other violent crimes against the person.

Tincon
12-01-2013, 9:48 PM
I think it unwise to try to apply a generalized bit of PC to a specific set of circumstances without specific legal advice.

It is downright foolish when there are real criminal penalties.

I think you may be reading too much into this issue. The act of carrying in your business I would argue is independent right and supersedes whether it is a public place or place open to the public. The statute clearly states 'place of business' or on private property. The whole idea is the right to protect oneself from robberies and other violent crimes against the person.

Your idea of how the world should work and the actual law are two different things.

Librarian
12-01-2013, 9:58 PM
I think you may be reading too much into this issue. The act of carrying in your business I would argue is independent right and supersedes whether it is a public place or place open to the public. The statute clearly states 'place of business' or on private property. The whole idea is the right to protect oneself from robberies and other violent crimes against the person.

Not saying I think the current bits of uncertainty are good or logical things; but, as is true with lots of other laws, there are intersections here with other limitations in Penal Code.

ifilef
12-01-2013, 9:58 PM
Oh, yeah, okay to carry in the employee bathroom but not in the restaurant dining room or the cashier's area. Right.

ifilef
12-01-2013, 10:12 PM
Well, your surprise notwithstanding, they do need a permit if they are carrying a loaded gun in a public place.

Not if they're in their place of business...

ifilef
12-01-2013, 10:17 PM
gun shop has locked door/gate and buzz people in. therefore it's not open to the "public".

I'll remember that next time I go into the Glockstore or Turner's. They still openly carry in Turner's don't they? Not aware of any 'buzz' thing going on there, are you? Funny, I did not notice anyone carry-maybe they changed their policy or I was not cognizant of anyone openly carrying. Maybe they carry concealed-honestly don't know.

I do know that at Iron Sights they all carry openly. I guess with their open door policy it's a 'private place', too! lol

Tincon
12-01-2013, 10:26 PM
Not if they're in their place of business...

Yes, if they are in in a part of their business that is open to the public. Your continued bullheaded opposition is not supported by the law.

Some of the shops you mention may have people carrying behind the counter, an area arguably not open to the public. Others may simply be unaware of the law.

ifilef
12-01-2013, 10:37 PM
The public IS the enemy. 'Public Enemy', get it? (jk)

If you are dealing with the public as a restauranteur you are subject to being robbed because of the cash, though less so now than years ago. Someone in the public, not necessarily a customer in the restaurant, may want to rob or kill you at gunpoint. You have a right to defend yourself under CA law, and defend yourself with a gun in your place of business. You don't need to get a CCW to do that. When you walk out the door onto the public street, outside the curtilage, one might think, then you do need a CCW.

Sorry, through with this thread.

Tincon
12-01-2013, 10:40 PM
I'm glad you are done, I'm tired of responding to your misinformation. No one here is saying the law is just or smart, but it is the law. Break it at your own risk.

Ritchie8719
12-01-2013, 10:44 PM
What? People that watch a lot of "Cops" on TV?


:D

LOL

ifilef
12-01-2013, 10:46 PM
It is downright foolish when there are real criminal penalties.



...


What-a possible misdemeanor charge to save your or someone else's life? That's assuming it's a crime to carry in your place of business in the first place.

ifilef
12-01-2013, 10:50 PM
Thank you for the discourse, well, some of you- who did not opine with personal insults/remarks and/or derogatory comments.

Image Group
12-04-2013, 9:06 PM
So let me take a stab at this...on my private property I was ONLY allowed to carry concealed because of a CCW. I am former LEO hence the CCW. But LEO that showed up didn't know that right away and gave me **** for carrying until I showed cause and proof. Then they chilled. My neighbor has a gun stashed in the store nearby and reachable but it's "stored safely" and he's in compliance. The Gun Stores I believe all have gun cards like a guard card to protect all of the guns and customers. They are permitted to carry their fire arms within the walls of the store and a short distance in the surrounding area of the building. Now that is my understanding. You may carry a concealed gun in your home all you like just not out in the presence of public. That changes the safety of the public who are deemed reasonably safe and not threatened by firearms. That is my take on how it all works,