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View Full Version : Turners rant, scope mounting service edition


ASRcpp223
11-27-2013, 4:44 PM
Sorry how the text may look I'm using my phone..

So about a month or so back I completed my 700 build and instead of buying all the equipment to mount the scope myself I would use turners free service (with buying the rifle of course) well I had them mount it and didn't think twice after, just looked down the scope to check relief and cased it and home...

Well on to the range and zero. Took a bit longer then expected but I was shooting sub moa at 100 easy 600 no problem. But I did notice my eye relief was a bit off. Upon further inspection I discovered that the scope had moved forward indicated by track marks om my brand new scope.. I then notice the rings... pretty much almost all the way tightened down on the left side, not much on the right

Cool Custard
11-27-2013, 4:46 PM
How is it their fault that YOU didn't check YOUR rifle?

HK Dave
11-27-2013, 4:51 PM
Your scope had you shooting sub moa from 100-600 yards while it was moving?

ASRcpp223
11-27-2013, 5:03 PM
So the guy didnt install the rings via a star pattern... think of the tires on your car.. you do it to torque your tire on evenly..

Anyways.. furious about this I decide to go back and chew some ***.. well this time diff guy.. dude takes it to the back.. brings it back after like 10 min and it looks exactly the same!!! Didnt even move it back into the original position, just says that the bore sight looks good and it needed some tightening. I explain to him to take it back, use a star pattern, fix the position and basically do it right! He tried to explain to me how they don't have the proper technical guidance to do somthing like that.. good thing the very sweet manager was there to agree with me and back to the back he goes... 20 min later the rifle comes back and looks great! Then I ask him what he torqued all the bolts at and he basically gave me the answer that his wrist was a calibrated torque wrench... idoit..

0-2 turners of rancho

If I was working on an airplane without technical guidance(military) quality assurance would grill my *** and I would be decertified on that task. Because **** like that causes major damage to the aircraft and possible harm to the operators.

In this case/scale it cost me plently of wasted ammo, gas, and hey my fancy 900 dollar scope has track marks it didnt have before on it.

So if there are any managers for turners in here, make sure your people are properly trained before you deem them certified/trained to install scopes correctly and use technical guidence and equipment properly.

ASRcpp223
11-27-2013, 5:04 PM
No sub moa at 100 because the scope moved up and settled on the rear bell, few adjustments later, shot fine. It was on tight just not correctly

2761377
11-27-2013, 5:07 PM
even when I was doing it for them 20 years ago I didn't think Turner's should be mounting scopes on paid-for rifles. having said that, you get what you pay for

there really aren't any special tools needed. serious riflemen should own something like this anyway-

http://www.mtmcase-gard.com/images/gun-cleaning-rmc-1-large.jpg

set aside a couple hours to undo everything the guy at Turner's did and do it yourself. be sure and get all the preservative oil off the screws and out of the holes.
gl

ASRcpp223
11-27-2013, 5:12 PM
And yes I should of checked it the first time and now that I know this i sure as hell did the second time (phone posted part one too fast sorry) so lets learn from my mistake here and maybe people who lurk this form with less or no experience can benefit.. especially because this service could be 30 bucks if you didnt buy the rifle at turners. I'm sure this isn't the case with every store but you would think that there would be at least a training program in place and not just a hey I think bill is good at it deal going on

JMP
11-27-2013, 5:17 PM
This is really surprising. When I need ultra high end custom work or advanced gunsmithing that absolutely can't go wrong, I always rely on Turners. Perhaps you should post this in the Turner's forum down below.

ASRcpp223
11-27-2013, 5:20 PM
Scope mounting must be high end custom work and advanced gunsmithing... noted

thegiff
11-27-2013, 6:45 PM
I was at the range a while back, a guy next to me shooting his brand new rifle with a scope on it. As he was shooting, he was getting more and more gangsta with his style, and he stopped when it was about 30 crooked. He asked me to take a look (probably due to my WTF stare), and confirmed that his scope was crooked. He tried twisting it back, and with no effort found that it was really loose. Installed by Turner's gunsmithing. I had my torque wrench and bits and tightened it and the base like it should have been.

FYI, some scope bases are supposed to be tight on one side and with a gap on the other.

I would never let the monkeys at a gun shop work on my stuff. Some of the people might know something, but sure as the sun rises that won't be the person working on your stuff.

firemanjoe
11-27-2013, 7:13 PM
Just curious and don't mean to thread crap.... What's the proper torque for scope rings?

gibt
11-27-2013, 7:24 PM
This is from Brownells,

"We recently obtained some ring and base screw specs from Leupold: base screws 14 in/lbs, ring screws, 15-17 in/lbs, and 45 in/lbs on the windage screw, 65 in/lbs on the cross bolt for the Mk IV ring."

Dinosaur Jr
11-27-2013, 7:27 PM
FYI, some scope bases are supposed to be tight on one side and with a gap on the other.

While that may be true, the OP is talking about rings. When installing a scope, careful attention should be paid to the gaps on each side of the ring halves so that the gaps are as even as possible - using a cross-tightening method is the best way to achieve this.

Dinosaur Jr
11-27-2013, 7:33 PM
Just curious and don't mean to thread crap.... What's the proper torque for scope rings?

Different rings have different specs and you should find yours. Most specs I've seen generally fall between 15-18in/lbs for the tube supports. Mounting hardware is much higher - 60+.

2761377
11-27-2013, 7:37 PM
This is really surprising. When I need ultra high end custom work or advanced gunsmithing that absolutely can't go wrong, I always rely on Turners. Perhaps you should post this in the Turner's forum down below.


LOL- if I may, a sentence-by-sentence translation

Doh, what did you expect? I would never let those clowns touch my gun except to verify serial number. The Turner's forum has plenty of snivel threads, this belongs there.

HK Dave
11-27-2013, 7:42 PM
Sorry you had trouble. I'd personally never have my scope mounted at turners. My suggestion is to buy a torque wrench and then google "mounting scope with feeler gauge"

EminenceGrise
11-27-2013, 7:42 PM
so lets learn from my mistake here and maybe people who lurk this form with less or no experience can benefit.. especially because this service could be 30 bucks if you didnt buy the rifle at turners.

:thumbsup:

I appreciate it!

shooterfpga
11-27-2013, 7:44 PM
I think the only way to get em flush is to lap them or use inserts. Some of the rings ive used come flush or even on both sides but many have not. Either way i mount my scopes pretty simple. Deck of cards under the scope and a plumb bob hanging to help clock it.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk

M1NM
11-27-2013, 7:44 PM
Let me get this right you work on aircraft and had some minimum wage sales guy mount your scope? It's not as tehnical as they want you to think been doing my own for 45 years with no problem. Have even had to drill and tap for the mounts. Biggest problem finding the oddball tap for some screws.

bigbearbear
11-27-2013, 8:09 PM
even when I was doing it for them 20 years ago I didn't think Turner's should be mounting scopes on paid-for rifles. having said that, you get what you pay for

there really aren't any special tools needed. serious riflemen should own something like this anyway-

http://www.mtmcase-gard.com/images/gun-cleaning-rmc-1-large.jpg

set aside a couple hours to undo everything the guy at Turner's did and do it yourself. be sure and get all the preservative oil off the screws and out of the holes.
gl


Can you tell me what is that thing shown in the picture? Been thinking of getting a bolt gun and the scope mounting had me curious. I thought about having the local gun store do it for me but maybe it is not that difficult.

Merc1138
11-27-2013, 8:15 PM
Can you tell me what is that thing shown in the picture? Been thinking of getting a bolt gun and the scope mounting had me curious. I thought about having the local gun store do it for me but maybe it is not that difficult.

It's a toolbox with a gun stand. You actually need more than that(could actually do it without the stand), specifically an inch/pound(NOT foot/pound) torque wrench or driver.

http://www.impactguns.com/data/default/images/catalog/535/wheeler_fat_wrench.jpg

Everything else is optional(lapping bar, alignment bars, levels, feeler gauges, etc.). Yes there are people who want to lap every set of rings, don't trust the alignment of 1 piece mounts, think they need the same gap down to the thousandths of an inch on each side of the rings(which may even be the opposite of how some rings are supposed to be installed), and while some of that can help prevent ring marks on the scope tube and such, you need to have everything torqued down properly.

bigbearbear
11-27-2013, 8:35 PM
It's a toolbox with a gun stand. You actually need more than that(could actually do it without the stand), specifically an inch/pound(NOT foot/pound) torque wrench or driver.

http://www.impactguns.com/data/default/images/catalog/535/wheeler_fat_wrench.jpg

Everything else is optional(lapping bar, alignment bars, levels, feeler gauges, etc.). Yes there are people who want to lap every set of rings, don't trust the alignment of 1 piece mounts, think they need the same gap down to the thousandths of an inch on each side of the rings(which may even be the opposite of how some rings are supposed to be installed), and while some of that can help prevent ring marks on the scope tube and such, you need to have everything torqued down properly.


Thanks man, found the curious looking product. Called "Portable Rifle Maintenance Center" from MTM Case-gard. I like it as it folds down and away for easily storage at home. I think I'll get one when I get my bolt gun.

prob
11-27-2013, 8:49 PM
Why didn't you just mount it yourself? It's easy, especially if you have a background in mechanical work.

ar15barrels
11-27-2013, 9:03 PM
While that may be true, the OP is talking about rings. When installing a scope, careful attention should be paid to the gaps on each side of the ring halves so that the gaps are as even as possible - using a cross-tightening method is the best way to achieve this.

TPS rings have SPECIFIC instructions to fully tighten the marked side before the other side.
The rings are machined to be assembled that way.
If you gap both sides of them, you have installed them wrong.

gunboat
11-28-2013, 1:12 AM
I agree with M1NM ---
But, if they take the job it should be done properly --

cantcme
11-28-2013, 4:28 AM
I would never let some retail clerk mount my optics.

2761377
11-28-2013, 6:47 AM
Holy cow- I must have mounted scopes on rifles 20 times without a torque wrench over the years. Never had any issues but I guess they are all F'd up since one supposedly "needs" a torque wrench.

On the other hand, having some sort stand/vise to hold the rifle horizontal sure has been helpful. doesn't "need" to be the MTM product, although that is what I have used. also, it works well for it's intended purpose as a cleaning station.

shooterfpga
11-28-2013, 7:00 AM
Holy cow- I must have mounted scopes on rifles 20 times without a torque wrench over the years. Never had any issues but I guess they are all F'd up since one supposedly "needs" a torque wrench.

On the other hand, having some sort stand/vise to hold the rifle horizontal sure has been helpful. doesn't "need" to be the MTM product, although that is what I have used. also, it works well for it's intended purpose as a cleaning station.

Proper torque is required if you dont want to have to loctite them. Ive never run a torque wrench either but in the precision game you want a repeatable setting so a torque wrench on all your stuff at the right specs is one of those things.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk

Bobby Ricigliano
11-28-2013, 7:04 AM
This is really surprising. When I need ultra high end custom work or advanced gunsmithing that absolutely can't go wrong, I always rely on Turners. Perhaps you should post this in the Turner's forum down below.

I see what you did there!

Eric Mayer
11-28-2013, 7:51 AM
I recommend anyone out there who may be mounting their own scope to go spend some money on a good set of Hex and Torx keys and one of these:

Wheeler Professional Reticle Leveling System (Review Article from my site) (http://www.varminter.com/wheeler-professional-reticle-leveling-system-review/).

They are very easy to use and can have your scope leveled and ready to tighten down in a matter of minutes. Just a small bit of cant will throw your shots off at longer ranges. If you don't plan to mount many scopes, go halves with a shooting buddy and share the cost on the items needed.

I would NEVER have a retail gun shop mount my scope. The eye relief is different for everyone, so you should be setting the scope at the proper distance for yourself. Also, if the retail gun shop employee torques down too tightly on the scope rings, it could damage the scope.

Eric :cool:

shooterfpga
11-28-2013, 8:01 AM
Using my deck of cards and plumb bob has never let me down. A friend has a full kit with levels, vise, etc and all of mine checked out dead on when put in his setup. So thus far i havent needed any fancy setups.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk

CK_32
11-28-2013, 8:31 AM
One of my LGS's I bought my 700 from had the ame offer. I said suuurreee why not. Then she shop kept talking about how pro tech their guy was so I said cool he much be good. Get some...

Something doesn't look right. He put my rings on backwards......


So I bought a Adj LB wrench and took them off and did it my self. No a big issue but those "Pro Techies" aren't really that pro. I put them about as on par as the counter commandos.

russ69
11-28-2013, 9:32 AM
Cliff notes: A discount gun shop did a bad job but it didn't cost anything. What could have possibly gone wrong?

Mounting a scope is not all that hard. I recommend you do it yourself unless you are totally ham-fisted. Most rings and scopes come with mounting instructions, just take your time and don't try to break it.

winxp_man
11-28-2013, 10:07 AM
TPS rings have SPECIFIC instructions to fully tighten the marked side before the other side.
The rings are machined to be assembled that way.
If you gap both sides of them, you have installed them wrong.

100% right on.

This is the reason you READ the instructions that came with your rings as base. If for some odd reason your rings or base did not come with instructions look on line.

ar15barrels
11-28-2013, 10:08 AM
Most rings and scopes come with mounting instructions, just take your time and don't try to break it.

And if you DO break it, I can fix it by opening up the stripped-out holes to 8-40 and fitting larger screws...

HK Dave
11-28-2013, 10:16 AM
If you're ever unsure about anything, just go have Randall do it. :P He's one of the few guys in CA that actually knows what he's doing.

CNC_Apps_Guy
11-29-2013, 5:39 PM
It never hurts to read the instructions. I got a set of Warne Scope Mounts and installed them on my 10/22, tightened them in a star pattern with the ball end of my hex wrench, no marks, no loosening, no loc-tite. That was 2,500 rounds ago. So far still good.

YZINGERR
11-29-2013, 5:53 PM
How is it their fault that YOU didn't check YOUR rifle?

Because HE took it to a reputable shop and HE expected them to do the job as requested.
Pretty obvious.

8200rpm
11-29-2013, 6:13 PM
Because HE took it to a reputable shop and HE expected them to do the job as requested.
Pretty obvious.

Expecting a Turner's clerk to properly mount a scope is like expecting the cashier at Autozone to properly install new brake pads on your vehicle.

I wouldn't let them work on my stuff even if they paid me.

YZINGERR
11-30-2013, 12:58 PM
Expecting a Turner's clerk to properly mount a scope is like expecting the cashier at Autozone to properly install new brake pads on your vehicle.

I wouldn't let them work on my stuff even if they paid me.

Trust me, I agree with you 100%.
I only send out my stuff when its impossible for me to do correctly.

USAF4564
11-30-2013, 7:06 PM
You need to learn how to mount and zero your own scope. Every person has different body features that may determine a mounting position. Example is how I mount my scopes farther back and higher because of my lack in shoulder width and longer face. What works for one person may not work for you.

USPSA GM
11-30-2013, 7:34 PM
I didn't think Turner did gunsmithing?

postal
12-01-2013, 8:37 AM
It never hurts to read the instructions. I got a set of Warne Scope Mounts and installed them on my 10/22, tightened them in a star pattern with the ball end of my hex wrench, no marks, no loosening, no loc-tite. That was 2,500 rounds ago. So far still good.

Wow! Thats impressive since the recoil on those is notorious for knocking stuff loose.....
:D

ASRcpp223
12-01-2013, 8:58 AM
Why didn't you just mount it yourself? It's easy, especially if you have a background in mechanical work.

Because I dont own the proper mounting equipment. Im active duty AF and the security forces on base would frown upon me bringing my rifle into my shop.

im sure the people on this forum that post things like "budget 700 build" are in the same boat. Anyways this thread got 800+ views which is awesome and hopefully all the people that bought their loved ones scoped firearms this holiday season included plum bobs, bubble levels, and those torque wrench screw drivers in the corrosponding stocking.

vintagearms
12-01-2013, 9:30 AM
This is really surprising. When I need ultra high end custom work or advanced gunsmithing that absolutely can't go wrong, I always rely on Turners. Perhaps you should post this in the Turner's forum down below.

LOL:)

Merc1138
12-01-2013, 2:51 PM
Because I dont own the proper mounting equipment. Im active duty AF and the security forces on base would frown upon me bringing my rifle into my shop.

im sure the people on this forum that post things like "budget 700 build" are in the same boat. Anyways this thread got 800+ views which is awesome and hopefully all the people that bought their loved ones scoped firearms this holiday season included plum bobs, bubble levels, and those torque wrench screw drivers in the corrosponding stocking.

Since the plumb bobs(a weight on a string hanging from a thumbtack on the wall isn't exactly equipment that's difficult to come by) and bubble levels aren't necessary, maybe they could just... borrow the torque driver from a friend? I've loaned mine to friends who needed to mount optics. It's not as if you can't do without it for a day or whatever.