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c good
11-27-2013, 2:35 PM
I understand by law they are supposed to but whom would one contact about this? DOJ? Local municipality issuing the FFL and business license? Can a shop just say it's their "policy" to not do PPT's? Thanks for any info.

Tincon
11-27-2013, 2:58 PM
it's a misdemeanor. I'd make sure they are aware of the law before taking further action.

Ritchie8719
11-27-2013, 3:03 PM
I don't know about misdemeanor, and I wouldn't say that without a reference to the penal code, but it is true that Federal 01 FFL's are required to do PPT's during business hours for the type of gun they sell, meaning if they don't sell pistols they don't have to do pistols.

So, more info needed and OUT the store if they are not following the law, please.

TRICKSTER
11-27-2013, 3:38 PM
http://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/agweb/pdfs/firearms/infobuls/0101.pdf?

The Penal code numbers have changed since this was printed. Here is a conversion chart to see what the new Penal code numbers are.
http://www.firearmstraining.com/docs/DWCA-Conversion_Table_pg943.pdf

DOJ contact info if you want to make a complaint is here.
http://oag.ca.gov/firearms/contact

Tincon
11-27-2013, 7:29 PM
26825. A licensee shall agree to and shall act properly and
promptly in processing firearms transactions pursuant to Chapter 5
(commencing with Section 28050).

For reference:

28050. (a) A person shall complete any sale, loan, or transfer of a
firearm through a person licensed pursuant to Sections 26700 to
26915, inclusive, in accordance with this chapter in order to comply
with Section 27545.

And the penalties:

26800. A license under this chapter is subject to forfeiture for a breach of any of the prohibitions and requirements of this article

28070. A violation of this chapter by a dealer is a misdemeanor.

dave_cg
11-27-2013, 7:37 PM
I understand by law they are supposed to but whom would one contact about this? DOJ? Local municipality issuing the FFL and business license? Can a shop just say it's their "policy" to not do PPT's? Thanks for any info.

Well, you could maybe force them to do it, but do you want to? Why not give your business to somebody who is happy to see you coming? It's true that a PPT is largely a money-loser for the FFL. So... when you find one that wants to do your PPT, buy something else there while you are getting the PPT done.

socaltrailrider
11-27-2013, 9:35 PM
Well, you could maybe force them to do it, but do you want to? Why not give your business to somebody who is happy to see you coming? It's true that a PPT is largely a money-loser for the FFL. So... when you find one that wants to do your PPT, buy something else there while you are getting the PPT done.

My thoughts exactly. Just go somewhere else and do the PPT and take your other business there as well. Gun stores have enough challenges doing business in California, do we as gun enthusiasts want to start turning them into the DOJ because they don't want to perform a transaction where they probably end up losing money? We are so opposed to the government infringing on our rights as a gun owner, let's not support the government infringing on the rights of the small business owner. Let the open market decide if the action is appropriate.

Sakiri
11-27-2013, 10:21 PM
I'm passive aggressive.

I'd take my business elsewhere and call in on them. After sending them a copy of the PC anyways.

But that's just me.

six seven tango
11-27-2013, 10:33 PM
Gun stores have enough challenges doing business in California, do we as gun enthusiasts want to start turning them into the DOJ because they don't want to perform a transaction where they probably end up losing money?

While I don't want to lose any more gun stores to overbearing regulations, the gun stores brought this on themselves. IIRC, when this whole PPT regulation started, the gun stores pushed for it because they wanted to force us into their places of business. They figured (correctly in most cases) that if they got us into the store for a transfer, they could get us to buy something while we were there.

Fast forward to present day, and they have now realized that it's a losing proposition for them. They're spending too much time, in their eyes, dealing with a money losing PPT and their sales are walking out the door. That's why some gun stores make it so difficult, if not impossible, for someone to do a PPT.

Personally, if I were the OP, I would show the owner/manager of said store the regs and give him a chance. If he still gave me lip, then I would seriously consider outing him to DOJ.

If these gun stores would get behind a push to repeal some of these unconstitutional BS laws that they helped pass, then I would be more than willing to help. Until then, I have on sympathy for the ones that think they don't have to play by the rules.

RECCE556
12-03-2013, 12:18 AM
I'm guessing a certain store in Culver City? ;) Not doing PPT's is BS. I would NEVER buy at a shop that doesn't freely do PPT's.

TKM
12-03-2013, 1:18 AM
Are you sure you want to leave your gun with them for 10 days if they don't like you in the first place? Be sure to take lots of pics before you leave.

SonofWWIIDI
12-03-2013, 1:46 AM
And lock it up before you leave it there!

winslowgirl
12-03-2013, 11:32 PM
My thoughts exactly. Just go somewhere else and do the PPT and take your other business there as well. Gun stores have enough challenges doing business in California, do we as gun enthusiasts want to start turning them into the DOJ because they don't want to perform a transaction where they probably end up losing money? We are so opposed to the government infringing on our rights as a gun owner, let's not support the government infringing on the rights of the small business owner. Let the open market decide if the action is appropriate.What? Let the Market decide if law breaking is "appropriate"? Seriously?

Gun stores have enough challenges without being expected to meet their statutory obligations? Those wishing to PPT locally should instead drive 25 - 30 miles (twice) to an FFL who does play by the rules because their local gun store wont?

FFLs have sworn to provide this service as a condition of the issuance of their licence.

Just like the rest of us, they are bound to comply with the law - that isn't optional for you or me, and it isn't optional for them. They are in violation of the law by willfully refusing to discharge their statutory duty.

Their unwillingness to do so places an added burden upon those ethical and conscientious FFLs who do play by the rules.

If there is no price to pay for breaking this law, why should ANY FFL facilitate PPTs? You can reasonably lobby for the law to be reviewed of course, but it cannot legitimately be argued that FFLs should be free to ignore it.

e90bmw
12-04-2013, 3:16 PM
I'm in the camp that says complain and make them follow the law.
They got the FFL saying that they would abide by the laws and statues governing them. They are licensed and as such serve at the behest and desire of the public.

If they refuse to carry out legally mandated duties, they should surrender the FFL.

Sakiri
12-04-2013, 4:14 PM
And can't forget the pawn shops that charge 50 bucks to do the transfer because they're not making a sale.

I've seen that a few times now. In fact, every place I've asked about PPT charges fees outside DROS. Not exactly sure if they can even do that.

LoneYote
12-04-2013, 4:29 PM
And can't forget the pawn shops that charge 50 bucks to do the transfer because they're not making a sale.

I've seen that a few times now. In fact, every place I've asked about PPT charges fees outside DROS. Not exactly sure if they can even do that.

http://oag.ca.gov/firearms/dlrfaqs#20G (http://http://oag.ca.gov/firearms/dlrfaqs#20G)

Only up to $10 on top of the 25 DROS per weapon.

Tincon
12-04-2013, 5:11 PM
$50 for a PPT is also a misdemeanor.

CSACANNONEER
12-04-2013, 5:23 PM
I'd take all my business elsewhere, post their name in this thread and send them a link to it along with letting them know that you will tell everyone you know about their criminal conduct and that no one should do business with them because, they could loos their license at any time and not be able to finish any transaction/transfer they have started.

Gunsmith Dan
12-04-2013, 8:04 PM
I have to disagree with the poster above who stated that Gun Dealers were pushing really hard to get the PPT law on the books to force people to goto FFLs so they can upsell them.

That is flat out false and if you do the proper research you will see it was not supported at all by the industry.

What the problem is in California is that they passed the law regarding PPT fees that are so low gun shops do lose money on transfers. They did it on purpose just many of the other restrictive laws on the books to try to force gun shops out of business. They knew it was against the law to not do the PPT transfers so they basically legislated business into lossing money or goto jail or go out of business.

Here is the info:

If the transaction is a PPT, in addition to the state fees, you may charge up to $10.00 or less per firearm for conducting the PPT. For example:

For a PPT involving one or more handguns, the total allowable fees are $35.00 for the first handgun, and $31.00 for each subsequent handgun.

For PPTs involving one or more long guns, the state fees are limited to $25.00 for the whole transaction plus up to $10.00 dealer fee per firearm transferred.

(Pen. Code, § 28055)


So in the case of handguns they can only charge $10.00 and if someone comes in with more than one then only $6.00 can be charge for each extra handgun. It takes on average between paperwork, going into the DROS system, logging in the the PPT, tagging it, logging the firearm into your bound book, logging it into a inventory book and locking it up as much 1 hour per gun.

You guys have very misplaced anger on this issue ..... you should be calling and writing your CA reps and senators demanding the fees be increased. You should be angry that the CA anti gun crowd passed a law forcing gun businesses to lose money. That they passed the law specifically to try to get gun shops to either go out of business or get shut down so it would be hard to purchase guns.

ohh as far as pawn shops goes:

In addition to the state's $19.00 DROS fee, you must also charge a $1.00 Firearms Safety fee and a $5.00 Safety and Enforcement fee. If the transaction being processed is a dealer sale, consignment return, or return from pawn, you may impose other charges as long as this amount is clearly shown as a "dealer fee" and not misrepresented as a state fee.

LoneYote
12-04-2013, 8:47 PM
You guys have very misplaced anger on this issue ..... you should be calling and writing your CA reps and senators demanding the fees be increased.

Really?

Tincon
12-04-2013, 9:15 PM
.... you should be calling and writing your CA reps and senators demanding the fees be increased.

Yeah, I'll get right on that. :rolleyes:

Gunsmith Dan
12-04-2013, 9:43 PM
So you guys are all for gun shops being forced by the state to lose money?

You guys scream and complain when law enforcement goes after the CNC shops that do not follow the laws about "80%" personal manufacturing firearms. "How dare the BATF&E makes businesses follow the law when we want to build guns for ourselves as easy as pushing a button."


but when a truly unjust law is on the books forcing gun shops to lose money or go out of business you guys ok with that. "They MUST follow the law and do PPT transfer or we will report them, who cares about them making money comrade."


All I can say is how CHEAP of you. Anyone who goes and does a PPT at a gun store and not buy anything to help support the business that is being forced to lose money to help you out should make sure to wear their Red Star on their hat to show their anti capitalist pride.


Tell you what how about someone pays you $10.00 per hour and have to pay $15.00 per hour in taxes .... that sounds fair according to some of you.


Ohh forgot to mention that FFLs under FEDERAL LAW are NOT required to do PPTs.

When a transaction takes place between private (unlicensed) persons who reside in the same State, the Gun Control Act (GCA) does not require any record keeping. A private person may sell a firearm to another private individual in his or her State of residence and, similarly, a private individual may buy a firearm from another private person who resides in the same State. It is not necessary under Federal law for a Federal firearms licensee (FFL) to assist in the sale or transfer when the buyer and seller are “same-State” residents. Of course, the transferor/seller may not knowingly transfer a firearm to someone who falls within any of the categories of prohibited persons contained in the GCA. See 18 U.S.C. §§ 922(g) and (n). However, as stated above, there are no GCA-required records to be completed by either party to the transfer.

There may be State or local laws or regulations that govern this type of transaction. Contact State Police units or the office of your State Attorney General for information on any such requirements.

Please note that if a private person wants to obtain a firearm from a private person who resides in another State, the firearm will have to be shipped to an FFL in the buyer’s State.

TINCON

You posted alot of sections but NOT ONE section that specifically states FFL dealers must do PPTs in CA .... would you mind posting that?

curtisfong
12-04-2013, 10:38 PM
FWIW I agree the purpose of the law is to make transferring firearms a cost center. Not just to discourage the transfer of firearms, but retail gun shops in general.

There IS no legislative solution, because CA legislators will go out of their way to make the situation worse whenever possible, no matter what you ask your legislator to do.

fizux
12-04-2013, 10:40 PM
How about getting rid of the whole ppt requirement?

This wouldn't even be an issue if it were relatively easy to get a kitchen table 01FFL. Market forces are always going to be more efficient than writing a price fixing statute.

Librarian
12-04-2013, 10:59 PM
TINCON

You posted alot of sections but NOT ONE section that specifically states FFL dealers must do PPTs in CA .... would you mind posting that?

See this sticky in the FFL forum - http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=725126

PC 26825.

A licensee shall agree to and shall act properly and promptly in processing firearms transactions pursuant to Chapter 5 (commencing with Section 28050).

Gunsmith Dan
12-04-2013, 11:17 PM
HOLD THE PRESSES!!!

I just read through the entire rules and laws in regards to PPT (never did before because I don't do sales or transfers of firearms) and after all that firearms dealers in CA ARE NOT REQUIRED to do PPTs by law.

Here is the link to the memo letter

REQUIREMENT FOR DEALERS TO CONDUCT PRIVATE PARTY TRANSFERS / ALLOWABLE FEES (http://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/agweb/pdfs/firearms/infobuls/0101.pdf#xml=http://search.doj.ca.gov:8004/AGSearch/isysquery/fe72e623-91ea-4ad7-ac01-3737db57204b/1/hilite/)

here is the specific part that is in question:

Firearms dealers are required to conduct private party transfers pursuant to Penal Code section 12071(b)(5). Dealers may not limit the days or hours in which private party transfers are conducted.

All that part is saying is that Dealers have to follow PC 12071(b)(5) when doing PPTs, not that they are required to do PPTs. The key is the word "pursuant"

pur·su·ant to
preposition \-ənt-\

: in a way that agrees with or follows (something) : in accordance with (something)

So that whole sentence is stating that dealers are required to follow the laws written in PC 12071(b)(5) when doing a PPT not that they are required to do PPTs.

So the next question is does 12071 (b)(5) state anywhere that dealers must to PPTs, well lets look:

12071
(b) A license is subject to forfeiture for a breach of any of the following prohibitions and requirements:

(5) The licensee shall agree to and shall act properly and promptly in processing firearms transactions pursuant to Section 12082.


Ok so now we goto PC 12082 which states:


(a)A person shall complete any sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm through a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071 in accordance with this section in order to comply with subdivision (d) of Section 12072. The seller or transferor or the person loaning the firearm shall deliver the firearm to the dealer who shall retain possession of that firearm. The dealer shall then deliver the firearm to the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned the firearm, if it is not prohibited, in accordance with subdivision (c) of Section 12072. If the dealer cannot legally deliver the firearm to the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned the firearm, the dealer shall forthwith, without waiting for the conclusion of the waiting period described in Sections 12071 and 12072, return the firearm to the transferor or seller or the person loaning the firearm. The dealer shall not return the firearm to the seller or transferor or the person loaning the firearm when to do so would constitute a violation of subdivision (a) of Section 12072. If the dealer cannot legally return the firearm to the transferor or seller or the person loaning the firearm, then the dealer shall forthwith deliver the firearm to the sheriff of the county or the chief of police or other head of a municipal police department of any city or city and county who shall then dispose of the firearm in the manner provided by Sections 12028 and 12032. The purchaser or transferee or person being loaned the firearm may be required by the dealer to pay a fee not to exceed ten dollars ($10) per firearm, and no other fee may be charged by the dealer for a sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm conducted pursuant to this section, except for the applicable fees that may be charged pursuant to Sections 12076, 12076.5, and 12088.9 and forwarded to the Department of Justice, and the fees set forth in Section 12805. Nothing in these provisions shall prevent a dealer from charging a smaller fee. The dealer may not charge any additional fees.

(b)The Attorney General shall adopt regulations under this section to do all of the following:

(1)Allow the seller or transferor or the person loaning the firearm, and the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned the firearm, to complete a sale, loan, or transfer through a dealer, and to allow those persons and the dealer to comply with the requirements of this section and Sections 12071, 12072, 12076, and 12077 and to preserve the confidentiality of those records.

(2)Where a personal handgun importer is selling or transferring a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person to comply with clause (ii) of subparagraph (A) of paragraph (2) of subdivision (f) of Section 12072, to allow a personal handgun importer's ownership of the pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person being sold or transferred to be recorded in a manner that if the firearm is returned to that personal handgun importer because the sale or transfer cannot be completed, the Department of Justice will have sufficient information about that personal handgun importer so that a record of his or her ownership can be maintained in the registry provided by subdivision (c) of Section 11106.

(3)Ensure that the register or record of electronic transfer shall state the name and address of the seller or transferor of the firearm or the person loaning the firearm and whether or not the person is a personal handgun importer in addition to any other information required by Section 12077.

(c)Notwithstanding any other provision of law, a dealer who does not sell, transfer, or keep an inventory of handguns is not required to process private party transfers of handguns.

(d)A violation of this section by a dealer is a misdemeanor.


Well nothing there stating a dealer is required to do PPTs either, just required to do certain things when doing a PPT ...hmmm

So after all that it seems that the requirement that Dealers are required to do PPTs is just one big fat FUD

If it wasn't for Tincon's post of out of context bits and pieces of the law I would of gone along with the FUD ...... guess you have to do your own research into these things.

What is sad is that the CalGuns Wiki has been giving misinformation to everyone for god knows how long about Dealers being required to do PPTs, very sad.

CalGuns Wiki Link (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Buying_and_selling_firearms_in_California)

Tripper
12-04-2013, 11:28 PM
I take it you don't like doing ppt at your place
Nice...



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

curtisfong
12-04-2013, 11:30 PM
I take it you don't like doing ppt at your place
Nice...


1) Why would anybody voluntarily lose money?
2) Why should he if he isn't legally required to?

Gunsmith Dan
12-04-2013, 11:46 PM
Tripper

If you read what I posted at the beginning before posting:

I just read through the entire rules and laws in regards to PPT (never did before because I don't do sales or transfers of firearms) and after all that firearms dealers in CA ARE NOT REQUIRED to do PPTs by law.

All I do is gunsmithing because I am busy enough as it is without getting into sales, I actually am on the Exempted Centralized List. So I have not only no DROS access but even though I have a FFL I have to buy guns and wait 10 days like most people.


Would I do PPTs if I decided to get into the sales side

Yes I would for those customer's that appreciate that the service being provided is at a loss by doing other business with me.

Anyone who thinks that charging $10.00 is more than enough for the time do do all the paperwork, provide security and insurance for the firearm during the 10 days, providing a place to do the paperwork and store the firearm is someone I do not want to do business with. The same as if I was selling a box of ammo for $10.00 and the customer offered me $1.00 and gets mad when I say no, no different and no thank you comrade.

I am a capitalist not a communist :D

Librarian
12-05-2013, 12:05 AM
HOLD THE PRESSES!!!

I just read through the entire rules and laws in regards to PPT (never did before because I don't do sales or transfers of firearms) and after all that firearms dealers in CA ARE NOT REQUIRED to do PPTs by law.

Here is the link to the memo letter

REQUIREMENT FOR DEALERS TO CONDUCT PRIVATE PARTY TRANSFERS / ALLOWABLE FEES (http://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/agweb/pdfs/firearms/infobuls/0101.pdf#xml=http://search.doj.ca.gov:8004/AGSearch/isysquery/fe72e623-91ea-4ad7-ac01-3737db57204b/1/hilite/)

here is the specific part that is in question:



All that part is saying is that Dealers have to follow PC 12071(b)(5) when doing PPTs, not that they are required to do PPTs. The key is the word "pursuant"



So that whole sentence is stating that dealers are required to follow the laws written in PC 12071(b)(5) when doing a PPT not that they are required to do PPTs.

So the next question is does 12071 (b)(5) state anywhere that dealers must to PPTs, well lets look:




Ok so now we goto PC 12082 which states:





Well nothing there stating a dealer is required to do PPTs either, just required to do certain things when doing a PPT ...hmmm

So after all that it seems that the requirement that Dealers are required to do PPTs is just one big fat FUD

If it wasn't for Tincon's post of out of context bits and pieces of the law I would of gone along with the FUD ...... guess you have to do your own research into these things.

What is sad is that the CalGuns Wiki has been giving misinformation to everyone for god knows how long about Dealers being required to do PPTs, very sad.

CalGuns Wiki Link (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Buying_and_selling_firearms_in_California)

Sorry, wrong.

First, catch up to current Penal Code numbering - I gave you the link to the current set in the sticky in the FFL forum.

26825.

A licensee shall agree to and shall act properly and promptly in processing firearms transactions pursuant to Chapter 5 (commencing with Section 28050).
So we look at 28050: 28050.

(a) A person shall complete any sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm through a person licensed pursuant to Sections 26700 to 26915, inclusive, in accordance with this chapter in order to comply with Section 27545.
and 27545 27545.

Where neither party to the transaction holds a dealer’s license issued pursuant to Sections 26700 to 26915, inclusive, the parties to the transaction shall complete the sale, loan, or transfer of that firearm through a licensed firearms dealer pursuant to Chapter 5 (commencing with Section 28050).

27545 obligates non-licensees to use an FFL for a CA transfer.

28050 says the 27545 transaction must follow the usual FFL process.

26825 says a licensee (1) agrees to process 28050 transactions started to satisfy 27545 and (2) says a licensee that doesn't do it is subject to losing his license.

TRICKSTER
12-05-2013, 12:20 AM
Tripper

If you read what I posted at the beginning before posting:



All I do is gunsmithing because I am busy enough as it is without getting into sales, I actually am on the Exempted Centralized List. So I have not only no DROS access but even though I have a FFL I have to buy guns and wait 10 days like most people.


Would I do PPTs if I decided to get into the sales side

Yes I would for those customer's that appreciate that the service being provided is at a loss by doing other business with me.

Anyone who thinks that charging $10.00 is more than enough for the time do do all the paperwork, provide security and insurance for the firearm during the 10 days, providing a place to do the paperwork and store the firearm is someone I do not want to do business with. The same as if I was selling a box of ammo for $10.00 and the customer offered me $1.00 and gets mad when I say no, no different and no thank you comrade.

I am a capitalist not a communist :D



26825PC: A licensee shall agree to and shall act properly and promptly in processing firearms transactions pursuant to Chapter 5 (commencing with Section 28050).

SHALL means exactly that. It is not optional.

If you go back into sales, you may want to run your opinion by your lawyer before you stake your business on your erroneous interpretation of the law.
DOJ has already set several dealers straight as to their requirement to do PTTs.

As far as your claim about dealers not supporting PPTs, IIRC the NRA did not oppose this or the CFLC system because they were not opposed by the California Association Firearms Retailers (CAFR). The NRA just followed the lead of the CA dealers.

67goat
12-05-2013, 12:44 AM
You posted the words yourself, yet failed to understand them.

Dealers may not limit the days or hours in which private party transfers are conducted.

Choosing not to do PPTs is, in fact, limiting days/hours of PPT (which is not allowed under the law). If a dealer is open for business, they must provide PPT services.

As for issues regarding dealers losing money, even absent additional sales for the two parties involved, any loss of money can be directly tied to LGSs affinity for hiring incompetent workers. The last several PPTs I've done have taken no more than 15 minutes, including DROS. They've even had the ability to help other customers while I completed form 4473.

Are there times when an idiot customer makes the process take longer than it should? Sure, just like there are times when a customer takes up an hour or more of an employee's time only to leave the store empty handed. And quite frankly, except in panic times most (granted, not all) LGSs aren't all that busy. Most of the employees tend to be sitting on stools talking to each other. Even when a store is dead, it often takes me more time to be acknowledged than it has ever taken for me to complete a PPT (some shops have been the exception, but they tend to be the smaller, less busy ones any way).

As for storage space and insurance, those are costs of running the business regardless of whether PPTs are done or not. And those costs are not increased by doing PPTs (unless you woefully under sized your safe). I've purchased many items from gun shops that sat on the shelf much longer than ten days and made the shop much less than $5. The insurance and storage space was still part of that process.

I used $5, because with competent staff, that's the minimum an LGS should make off the transaction. Well trained, reliable, responsible staff should be able to complete the transaction in 20 minutes of actual employee time easily. I don't know any gun shops paying high wages, so even assuming $10/hr that's $6.66. Take 15% off the original $10 for other overhead expenses and your still over $5.

Granted, that is not the best profit and won't make the owner a rich person by itself, but if the LGS were only trying to make high dollar sales then most of the stock in the store would have to go. I've seen employees spend more than 20 minutes to sell a single box of ammo that netted the store less than $5.

Service generates customers, customers generate volume, volume generates money. Want to make money without a bunch of little sales, open a store that only sells guns priced like J. Purdey and Sons shotguns so you only have to sell a few.

floorance
12-05-2013, 3:12 AM
All this just brings me back to an experience I had only less then 1 month ago, walked in to do a PPT on a stripped lower with another calgunner, store was empty and multiple workers. They flat out denied doing the PPT because of their policy of "not selling those type of rifles". Btw it was The Gun Room in Elk Grove.

Noobie
12-05-2013, 3:54 AM
Gunsmith was calling people out, only to admit he did not know the laws?
The store that will not PPT , should at the least be outed so that others will avoid. Any gun store that does not wish to expand their customer base by doing ppt also does not wish to grow the 2A culture in Ca.

Gunsmith Dan
12-05-2013, 12:07 PM
Librarian

Sorry to say you are wrong and not throughly reading the sections you are posting, the key is when the word "pursuant to section xxx" is stating that one must follow what is written in that section.

You posted sections that further prove my point, not ONE single section has stated that a dealer MUST process PPTs, that they only must FOLLOW THE LAWS that apply to regular firearm sales when processing PPTs.

lets look at this one you state is the key:

Quote:
26825.

A licensee shall agree to and shall act properly and promptly in processing firearms transactions pursuant to Chapter 5 (commencing with Section 28050).
What is the above key pc section telling a licensee? A licensee shall agree to and shall what?????

act properly and promptly in processing firearms transactions

So let look at what those words mean:

prop·er·ly /ˈpräpərlē/ adverb, adverb of proper

Correctly or satisfactorily, appropriately for the circumstances; suitably; respectably.


prompt·ly /ˈprämptlē/ adverb, adverb of prompt

With little or no delay; immediately.


this one per Black's Law:

Processing

The passage of data or material through a sequence of processes until the end product is achieved.


So breaking down the section basically says:

Dealers agree to and will will do everything correct and as fast as possible when selling/transfering firearms following chapter 5 starting at section 28050. No where in the language does it state dealers must, will, are required to or shall process PPts.

Big difference between saying processing PPTs (that act of doing the work) and will process PPTs (the act of doing). Again plain English even for those that look at big words and get scared and just start spouting off "you are wrong because the government says you are". :eek:

Stating that dealers MUST do PPTs is a HUGE FUD both by the CA DOJ AND Cal Guns by not saying "ahh where exactly does it say that part" and not bothering to read the laws.

edgerly779
12-05-2013, 12:12 PM
As always Librarian has the answer and gunsmith dan fix your post is it $31 for each extra handgun or $6 for each extra handgun. Confusing.

CalLongGunner
12-05-2013, 12:24 PM
Librarian

Sorry to say you are wrong and not throughly reading the sections you are posting, the key is when the word "pursuant to section xxx" is stating that one must follow what is written in that section.

You posted sections that further prove my point, not ONE single section has stated that a dealer MUST process PPTs, that they only must FOLLOW THE LAWS that apply to regular firearm sales when processing PPTs.

lets look at this one you state is the key:


What is the above key pc section telling a licensee? A licensee shall agree to and shall what?????

act properly and promptly in processing firearms transactions

So let look at what those words mean:

prop·er·ly /ˈpräpərlē/ adverb, adverb of proper

Correctly or satisfactorily, appropriately for the circumstances; suitably; respectably.


prompt·ly /ˈprämptlē/ adverb, adverb of prompt

With little or no delay; immediately.


this one per Black's Law:

Processing

The passage of data or material through a sequence of processes until the end product is achieved.


So breaking down the section basically says:

Dealers agree to and will will do everything correct and as fast as possible when selling/transfering firearms following chapter 5 starting at section 28050. No where in the language does it state dealers must, will, are required to or shall process PPts.

Big difference between saying processing PPTs (that act of doing the work) and will process PPTs (the act of doing). Again plain English even for those that look at big words and get scared and just start spouting off "you are wrong because the government says you are". :eek:

Stating that dealers MUST do PPTs is a HUGE FUD both by the CA DOJ AND Cal Guns by not saying "ahh where exactly does it say that part" and not bothering to read the laws.


That depends on what your definition of is, is.

Gunsmith Dan
12-05-2013, 12:27 PM
The way the law is worded by going to a max combined fee it really screws the Dealers. If the DROS fee go up then the dealer charges even less.

So if the DROS fee jumps up to $30.00 (which is something the DOJ is seriously thinking about) then a Dealer could only charge $5.00 for the first handgun and $1.00 for each additional handgun.

Those of you even making the arguement that $10.00 per gun is to much go open a business and see what the actual costs involved. The "cost of doing business" is something that a business has to include into the prices they charge, it is not some magical free thing a business gets. Those cost must be all paid for, the space, employees, taxes etc. so what because the business has some empty space they should provide it free??

Sorry but as I stated before I am a capitalist not a communist and businesses have the right to make money, customer's do not have the right to dictate how much profit a business should make that is the right of the business owner. Communists ...err customers .... that want to tell a business how much profit a business should make should go join the Obama change the term limits admendment campaign.

TRICKSTER
12-05-2013, 12:36 PM
Librarian

Sorry to say you are wrong and not throughly reading the sections you are posting, the key is when the word "pursuant to section xxx" is stating that one must follow what is written in that section.

You posted sections that further prove my point, not ONE single section has stated that a dealer MUST process PPTs, that they only must FOLLOW THE LAWS that apply to regular firearm sales when processing PPTs.

lets look at this one you state is the key:


What is the above key pc section telling a licensee? A licensee shall agree to and shall what?????

act properly and promptly in processing firearms transactions

So let look at what those words mean:

prop·er·ly /ˈpräpərlē/ adverb, adverb of proper

Correctly or satisfactorily, appropriately for the circumstances; suitably; respectably.


prompt·ly /ˈprämptlē/ adverb, adverb of prompt

With little or no delay; immediately.


this one per Black's Law:

Processing

The passage of data or material through a sequence of processes until the end product is achieved.


So breaking down the section basically says:

Dealers agree to and will will do everything correct and as fast as possible when selling/transfering firearms following chapter 5 starting at section 28050. No where in the language does it state dealers must, will, are required to or shall process PPts.

Big difference between saying processing PPTs (that act of doing the work) and will process PPTs (the act of doing). Again plain English even for those that look at big words and get scared and just start spouting off "you are wrong because the government says you are". :eek:

Stating that dealers MUST do PPTs is a HUGE FUD both by the CA DOJ AND Cal Guns by not saying "ahh where exactly does it say that part" and not bothering to read the laws.

I just hope that your better at being a gunsmith than you are at interpreting the law.:facepalm:

Gunsmith Dan
12-05-2013, 12:53 PM
Trickster

Where am I wrong????

Easy to say "You are wrong" with no proof ... that is what the anti gun people do all the time.

So since you know the ways to interpret laws please go ahead and show me where I was incorrect.

jben
12-05-2013, 1:17 PM
Trickster

Where am I wrong????



26825.

A licensee shall agree to ...

TRICKSTER
12-05-2013, 1:32 PM
26825.

A licensee shall agree to ...

^This.
Gunsmith seems to think that this means that you shall agree to follow another section of the the law.

That other section (28050) already written law. They do not post a separate section telling you that you shall agree to follow it.

It is really quite simple.
A licensee shall agree to and shall act properly and promptly in processing firearms transactions ( You shall process these transactions)
pursuant to Chapter 5 (commencing with Section 28050) Following the law set as written in Chapter 5 (commencing with Section 28050)

I spent over 30 years reading, understanding and enforcing State Laws, how much experience do you have?

Librarian
12-05-2013, 2:15 PM
I'll merely point out that the DOJ is strongly of the opinion that dealers are required to perform PPTs - http://oag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs 14. Can I sell a gun directly to another person (i.e. non-dealer)?

Generally, no. This type of transaction is referred to as a “private party transfer” and must be conducted through a fully licensed California firearms dealer. Failure to do so is a violation of California law. The purchaser (and seller if the purchaser is denied), must meet the normal firearm purchase and delivery requirements.

Firearms dealers are required to process private party transfers upon request but may charge a fee not to exceed $10 per firearm for conducting the transfer. For example:

For a private party transfer involving one or more handguns, the total allowable fees, including the DROS, safety, and dealer transfer fees, are not to exceed $35.00 for the first handgun and $31.00 for each additional handgun involved in the same transaction.

For private party transfers involving one or more long guns, or a private party transfer involving one handgun, the total allowable fees, including the DROS, safety, and dealer transfer fees, are not to exceed $35.00. The dealer may charge an additional dealer-service fee of up to $10.00 for each additional firearm.

"Antique firearms," as defined in section 921(a)(16) of Title 18 of the United States Code, and curio or relic rifles/shotguns, defined in section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, that are over 50 years old, are exempt from this requirement. For additional exceptions, refer to Penal Code sections 27850 through 27966.

(Pen. Code, § 27545.)

While a number of the opinions of DOJ do seem questionable, I don't find this one in that category.

Folks with a different opinion should really consult their own attorneys before acting on that opinion.

e90bmw
12-05-2013, 2:40 PM
Notaries only get $10/signature.
They can charge a fee if they travel to you.
But if you walk in to a UPS Store, bank or anywhere else where a notary has posted hours, it's $10/signature.

So I don't feel bad for the FFL that can only charge $10 for a transfer.
It doesn't require anything more than a notary does and is probably less.

edgerly779
12-05-2013, 3:19 PM
Does a notary have to stop what they are doing and allow an inspection and audit on spur of the moment. Does a notary have to get on a computer and spend 10-20 minutes inputting critical dat on the person signing. Does the notary have to pay for special access lines to doj? Does tyhe notary have to keep form 4473 for years in an easlily accessable file.?? What a dummy.

CSACANNONEER
12-05-2013, 3:23 PM
1) Why would anybody voluntarily lose money?
2) Why should he if he isn't legally required to?

Anyone who is losing money doing PPTs is an idiot. A PPT takes less than 10 minutes if the FFL is semi competent. So, if the FFL cam do 5 PPTs per hr (while helping other customers at the same time), the PROFIT is only $80/hr. Yea, that's $10 for the PPT and the other $6 from the DROS which the FFL keeps. Anyway, if $80/hr isn't enough for a FFL, he/she can hire someone at minimum wage to process PPTs.

It's funny how in the free states, many FFLs only charge $5-$10 for the total transfer fees of guns which are purchased by the buyer and transferred through their license. Internet transfers are a prime example of this. But, for some reason, some CA FFLs seem to think that these transfers are worth $100 or more. Go figure?????

CSACANNONEER
12-05-2013, 3:27 PM
Does a notary have to stop what they are doing and allow an inspection and audit on spur of the moment. Does a notary have to get on a computer and spend 10-20 minutes inputting critical dat on the person signing. Does the notary have to pay for special access lines to doj? Does tyhe notary have to keep form 4473 for years in an easlily accessable file.?? What a dummy.

Any FFL that spends 10-20 minutes inputting data for a PPT or any DROS is a moron who I would not trust around firearms. Notaries do pay for special licenses and even have to pass a test (FFLs don't have to pass a test). No, notaries don't have to pay for a special line to DOJ. ALL FFLs are required to keep 4473s for years. Why can DDLs in other states charge $5-$20 for "internet" and other out of state transfers? Other states do not have any regulations on what a FFL can charge yet, many choose to charge very little for their few minutes worth of work. You're smart enough to know all that.

Gunsmith Dan
12-06-2013, 9:12 AM
Trickster

I just hope that your better at being a gunsmith than you are at interpreting the law.

Well I sure hope you enforced laws better than you read them.


Basic english lesson here:

Process is a noun

Processing is a verb

(1) You are required by law to processing the paperwork.

(2) You are required by law to process the paperwork.

So which one is correct?

If you answered (1) you need to take some english refresher courses.


The section CLEARLY states:

Quote:
26825.

A licensee shall agree to and shall act properly and promptly in processing firearms transactions pursuant to Chapter 5 (commencing with Section 28050).

So processing is a verb meaning the "work or what is being done"

so A licensee shall agree to and shall act properly and promtly in processing (working on) firearms transaction pursuant to (following) Chapter 5 (commencing with Section 28050).


ALL that section states in CLEAR english is that dealers will agree to follow the rules and do everything as fast as possible when working on the firearms transaction ...... it does not state dealers must do the transfer.


All you guys bolding shall agree to and shall act are skipping over a couple of words, properly and promtly, the actual things the licensee the 2 shalls are pointing to. In order for the 2 shalls to point to processing paperwork it would have to read:

A licensee shall agree to and shall act to process firearms transactions and will do so properly and promtly pursuant to Chapter 5 (commencing with Section 28050)


CSACANNONEER

You way off and over simplfied the process just filling out forms is not the process in CA.

Greet customers and talk to them to see what is being done (2 to 3 minutes)

Inspect firearm, note all defects, take pictures and make sure legal in CA (4 to 5 minutes plus cost)

Do 4473 and verify ID and residence (10 to 20 minutes)

Enter information into DROS and pray it is not down or slow, which is about 60% of the time.(btw if the system is down the transfer can not be completed until a DROS number and DROS print out are signed). ( 5 to god know when minutes)

Print paperwork and have the parties read all the paperwork and sign. (1 to 3 minutes plus cost)

copy all the paperwork (2 to 3 minutes plus cost)

Fill out bound book (1 minute)

Fill out inventory log noting location to be stored (1 minute)

Tag firearm with ID tag (1 minute)

store in safe (1 to 2 minutes)

provide insurance (plus cost)

So while the paperwork MAY be done in 10 minutes you add everything else that needs to be done and you have a total labor time of 30 minutes plus costs for coping and printing paperwork, space in the safe and insurance and employee costs.

The key is the DROS system that until your get the printout with the DROS number you have to sit and wait ...... which means other customers that want to buy a firearm have to wait and at some point they will leave and you lost a sale. The average wait time for DROS is around 15 minutes depending on day of week and time of day, on a weekend you can wait as much as 1 hour to get through the system and get the printout.

Those that DO NOT run businesses must understand that the hourly wage is not the true cost of employment. Once you add up all the costs, unemployment insurance, social security, disability insurance, payroll etc your $10.00 per hour employee costs you around $16.00 per hour. If you provide health insurance the cost is around $22.00 per hour for basic health insurance. So yes the costs involved in having employees very easily cost more in many cases than what you pay the employee.

On top of that comparing other states has no bearing on this since California has the highest costs for doing business outside of New York City, that and some states do not require a FFL for PPT (AZ for one).

curtisfong
12-06-2013, 9:23 AM
A licensee shall agree to and shall act properly and promptly in processing firearms transactions ( You shall process these transactions)

This is a perfect example of why English is a bad choice for the language of law.

Librarian
12-06-2013, 9:27 AM
Ah, Dan?

Just a hint.

Laws are not written in English.

The writers do use a lot of words that look like English, and sometimes use structure that reflects some forms of English usage, but there's a reason there are law school courses on statutory interpretation.

You may find this piece (http://www.stanfordlawreview.org/print/article/statutory-interpretation-inside-empirical-study-legislative-drafting-delegation-part-i) from Stanford Law Review entertaining. It addresses Congressional legislation, but the problems are quite similar.

Gunsmith Dan
12-06-2013, 9:43 AM
Yes I understand that Librarian but when using words to define actions most use Black's Law Dictionary to find correct legal terms ..... the same reference I used.

No mater which way you look at the section it does not define private party transfers must be done.

It states "firearms transactions" which can be anything from PPTs to regular sales, consignments or buying firearms. If it is being read as all licences MUST do PPTs then it also reads all Licensees MUST do all the other transaction types as well.

If that is how the section is being read then the Licencee has no right to refuse service to anyone that wants to buy, sell or trade or consign a firearm with the Licensee no matter how rude, belligerent, disruptive or threatening they are.

LoneYote
12-06-2013, 11:17 AM
So you guys are all for gun shops being forced by the state to lose money?"How dare the BATF&E makes businesses follow the law when we want to build guns for ourselves as easy as pushing a button."


but when a truly unjust law is on the books forcing gun shops to lose money or go out of business you guys ok with that. "They MUST follow the law and do PPT transfer or we will report them, who cares about them making money comrade."

The contention is that BATFE is not making them follow the law but imposing a desire through intimidation.

nothing4u
12-06-2013, 11:28 AM
Well, you could maybe force them to do it, but do you want to? Why not give your business to somebody who is happy to see you coming? It's true that a PPT is largely a money-loser for the FFL. So... when you find one that wants to do your PPT, buy something else there while you are getting the PPT done.

It's only a money loser if you don't know how to run a business.

CSACANNONEER
12-06-2013, 11:33 AM
Dan,

I've done enough PPTs on both sides of the counter to know what it takes to do one. Sorry, I don't feel I've oversimplified anything here. If you or your transfer FFL can't do a PPT from start to finish in 10-15 minutes (including the time it takes to deliver it to the buyer on a second trip), you or your FFL need to find someone competent enough to do simple paperwork in a timely fashion.

CSACANNONEER
12-06-2013, 11:36 AM
Ohh forgot to mention that FFLs under FEDERAL LAW are NOT required to do PPTs.


LMFAO! Do you really have a FFL? If so, you would know that FEDERAL LAW REQUIRES all FFLs to follow all laws in the state the FFL is issued. So, FEDERAL LAW DOES REQUIRE FFLs to do PPTs!!!!!

nothing4u
12-06-2013, 11:48 AM
Trickster



Well I sure hope you enforced laws better than you read them.


Basic english lesson here:

Process is a noun

Processing is a verb

(1) You are required by law to processing the paperwork.

(2) You are required by law to process the paperwork.

So which one is correct?

If you answered (1) you need to take some english refresher courses.


The section CLEARLY states:



So processing is a verb meaning the "work or what is being done"

so A licensee shall agree to and shall act properly and promtly in processing (working on) firearms transaction pursuant to (following) Chapter 5 (commencing with Section 28050).


ALL that section states in CLEAR english is that dealers will agree to follow the rules and do everything as fast as possible when working on the firearms transaction ...... it does not state dealers must do the transfer.


All you guys bolding shall agree to and shall act are skipping over a couple of words, properly and promtly, the actual things the licensee the 2 shalls are pointing to. In order for the 2 shalls to point to processing paperwork it would have to read:

A licensee shall agree to and shall act to process firearms transactions and will do so properly and promtly pursuant to Chapter 5 (commencing with Section 28050)


CSACANNONEER

You way off and over simplfied the process just filling out forms is not the process in CA.

Greet customers and talk to them to see what is being done (2 to 3 minutes)

Inspect firearm, note all defects, take pictures and make sure legal in CA (4 to 5 minutes plus cost)

Do 4473 and verify ID and residence (10 to 20 minutes)

Enter information into DROS and pray it is not down or slow, which is about 60% of the time.(btw if the system is down the transfer can not be completed until a DROS number and DROS print out are signed). ( 5 to god know when minutes)

Print paperwork and have the parties read all the paperwork and sign. (1 to 3 minutes plus cost)

copy all the paperwork (2 to 3 minutes plus cost)

Fill out bound book (1 minute)

Fill out inventory log noting location to be stored (1 minute)

Tag firearm with ID tag (1 minute)

store in safe (1 to 2 minutes)

provide insurance (plus cost)

So while the paperwork MAY be done in 10 minutes you add everything else that needs to be done and you have a total labor time of 30 minutes plus costs for coping and printing paperwork, space in the safe and insurance and employee costs.

The key is the DROS system that until your get the printout with the DROS number you have to sit and wait ...... which means other customers that want to buy a firearm have to wait and at some point they will leave and you lost a sale. The average wait time for DROS is around 15 minutes depending on day of week and time of day, on a weekend you can wait as much as 1 hour to get through the system and get the printout.

Those that DO NOT run businesses must understand that the hourly wage is not the true cost of employment. Once you add up all the costs, unemployment insurance, social security, disability insurance, payroll etc your $10.00 per hour employee costs you around $16.00 per hour. If you provide health insurance the cost is around $22.00 per hour for basic health insurance. So yes the costs involved in having employees very easily cost more in many cases than what you pay the employee.

On top of that comparing other states has no bearing on this since California has the highest costs for doing business outside of New York City, that and some states do not require a FFL for PPT (AZ for one).

Or you could have PPT submit formal request in writing and arrange a time that is off peak time that won't cut into your profitable hours. There's a gun store I know that didn't charge the $10 fee if you came in before noon to do a PPT. It's been 5 years and they're still in business and have a second shop.

canopis
12-06-2013, 11:53 AM
"A licensee shall agree to and shall act properly and promptly in processing firearms transactions pursuant to Chapter 5 (commencing with Section 28050)."

In principles of statutory construction, the word "and" (which I've bolded above) is a conjunctive, which separates mandatory requirements. In this case, it breaks down to:

"A licensee [1] shall agree to and [2] shall act properly and promptly in [doing what?] processing firearms transactions pursuant to Chapter 5 (commencing with Section 28050)."

So:

"A licensee shall agree to ... process[] firearms transactions pursuant to Chapter 5 (commencing with Section 28050)."

and also

"A licensee ... shall act properly and promptly in processing firearms transactions pursuant to Chapter 5 (commencing with Section 28050)."

Have to do both.

whatwhy
12-06-2013, 11:55 AM
If you or your transfer FFL can't do a PPT from start to finish in 10-15 minutes (including the time it takes to deliver it to the buyer on a second trip), you or your FFL need to find someone competent enough to do simple paperwork in a timely fashion.

Agree 100%.

This is a perfect example of why English is a bad choice for the language of law.

I don't see why it's a bad choice. Every language has its ambiguities, as long as those ambiguities are defined, then it's not a problem. In our common law system, that typically happens through case law and judge interpretation.

Fortunately for us, "shall" in the legal context means that you will and are hereby obligated to by law.

TRICKSTER
12-06-2013, 12:08 PM
Gunsmith is right, everyone else including DOJ, people that enforce the laws for a living, and people that understand the law and how it works is wrong.
It's his business to lose so in reality, if he really doesn't care, why should we. :banghead:

67goat
12-06-2013, 12:19 PM
Basic English lesson here:

Process is a noun, adjective, transitive verb, and an intransitive verb. So, you are quite wrong about basic English on this point, Dan.

Oh, but wait, you didn't mean plain, basic English. You meant Black's Law. Which is it? Is it a basic English lesson or a specialized subset lesson?

You say you used legal definitions, but then fail to parse the law properly under that same set of rules.

In order to make your argument, you try to mix plain English and legalese to get to your destination. You can't have it both ways. It must be analyzed by one or the other method. Neither of those methods, when used alone, gets to where you are trying to go.

curtisfong
12-06-2013, 2:52 PM
Every language has its ambiguities

Nope. Untrue. There are completely unambiguous languages/grammars.

whatwhy
12-06-2013, 2:59 PM
Nope. Untrue. There are completely unambiguous languages/grammars.

Such as?

curtisfong
12-06-2013, 3:49 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambiguous_grammar

whatwhy
12-06-2013, 5:55 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambiguous_grammar

You do realize that most, if not all, programming languages are still English right?


Statement = if Condition then Statement |
if Condition then Statement else Statement |
...
Condition = ...


This is English. On top of that, it would be nearly impossible to write statutes for every single possible scenario and close it to any interpretation at all.

LoneYote
12-06-2013, 7:02 PM
You do realize that most, if not all, programming languages are still English right?


Statement = if Condition then Statement |
if Condition then Statement else Statement |
...
Condition = ...


This is English. On top of that, it would be nearly impossible to write statutes for every single possible scenario and close it to any interpretation at all.

I would be amused if someone tried though....

Librarian
12-06-2013, 7:23 PM
You do realize that most, if not all, programming languages are still English right?


Statement = if Condition then Statement |
if Condition then Statement else Statement |
...
Condition = ...


This is English. On top of that, it would be nearly impossible to write statutes for every single possible scenario and close it to any interpretation at all.

I would suggest that pseudo-code is a variant of English. Backus-Naur (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backus%E2%80%93Naur_Form) is NOT English. COBOL is not English. 'C' is not English. Any assembly language you care to specify is not English. PASCAL is not English. JAVA is not English. Python is not English. Perl is not English. LISP, SNOBOL, FORTRAN, BASIC, PL-1 are not English.

whatwhy
12-07-2013, 12:08 AM
I would suggest that pseudo-code is a variant of English. Backus-Naur (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backus%E2%80%93Naur_Form) is NOT English. COBOL is not English. 'C' is not English. Any assembly language you care to specify is not English. PASCAL is not English. JAVA is not English. Python is not English. Perl is not English. LISP, SNOBOL, FORTRAN, BASIC, PL-1 are not English.

I see what you're saying--and forgive me, my background in coding is above average but still extremely limited compared to those that do it for a living.

My reply to curtisfong was more tongue-in-cheek than anything since he decided to just give a general link to a wikipedia article. But my actual point with the ambiguity of language is that no matter how you slice it, there will always be another interpretation--some more reasonable than others.

Sure, programming languages can be "unambiguous" but that's because they revert to using variables as a type of data--which I'd argue are ambiguous since they are...well, they are variable.

As far as statutory text is concerned, it's the equivalent of saying:

if (person does bad thing)
then punish(spanking);

You can define the punish function all you want, but person doing a bad thing will always be open for interpretation. In the same sense, no two criminal trials are the same--they can be similar, but no two are truly alike--which leaves room for debate.

Again, this is a complete tangent...I agree that you can use unambiguous grammar to a certain extent--we also have canons of construction, legislative history, and a whole subset of tool for statutory interpretation based on grammar. But at the end of the day, a language will always have room for ambiguity.

Zerstörer
12-07-2013, 1:07 AM
I'm passive aggressive.

I'd take my business elsewhere and call in on them. After sending them a copy of the PC anyways.

But that's just me.

While I typically hate passive aggressive people, I gotta say-- I like the way you think ;)

RECCE556
12-08-2013, 11:38 PM
if (person does bad thing)
then punish(spanking);
Where do I sign up?


Oh....uh...wrong thread...sorry...