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ToxicWaste
11-22-2013, 5:22 PM
Hello, couldn't find a welcome forum, so Hello and glad to be here.

I have a legal situation ongoing right now. I had a felony in 1995 for one of those misdemeanors that prohibit gun ownership for 10 years. I violated probation, they caught me with 14 guns in my home, and I was sentenced to county jail for one year, a wobbler offense.

In 2000 I petitioned the court to reduce the felony to a misdemeanor under Penal Code 17, and they did, and also set aside the misdemeanor, Penal Code 1203.3, and 1203.4. They terminated my probation.

My gun rights have been restored since I do not have a felony. I have purchased six different guns at different gun shops, registered FFL dealers, did the DROS form and had no problem purchasing firearms.

My problem I have is that even though I had a felony, which now is set aside, it still shows up on a background check.

The district attorney told me to file a 851.8 form to have my record sealed and destroyed so it will not show up on a background check.

Is anyone here familiar with this procedure. I have been turned down for jobs because this shows up, and even though I have the court minute order, it doesn't help. I have been told that Penal Code 17 which reduced the felony to a misdemeanor isn't easy to do, which I had no problem doing.

I have my paperwork filled out and am ready to turn it in. I have been told that the L.A. County Sheriff normally denies every one of these, and then it gets sent to the Judge for a final decision.

taperxz
11-22-2013, 5:51 PM
You need an attorney. Not responses from anonymous people on an internet forum.

RickD427
11-22-2013, 5:59 PM
You need an attorney. Not responses from anonymous people on an internet forum.

^^^^^THIS^^^^^

Also please note that many private entities use privately maintained databases (like LEXIS/NEXIS) to do their background checks. Those private databases collect their data from public sources at the time its created. They're not so good at capturing later changes to the data.

ToxicWaste
11-22-2013, 6:29 PM
An Attorney may be the way to go. When I filed the PC 17 and 1203.3 and 1203.4, I did all the paper work my self, and used the same public defender that was at my sentencing trial, since you do need an attorney in court. He told me my chances of having the motion granted was a very long shot from his experience. I did some good deeds and a lot of volunteer community service and had letters of recommendation, which is what the judge took into consideration making his decision. As usual, the prosecutor strenuously objected, but the judge ruled in my favor. That was 13 years ago. I have stayed out of trouble with the law and continued my volunteer community services, and have many letters of recommendation, so I think I can pull this off.

ToxicWaste
11-22-2013, 7:42 PM
Online, I have found lawyers that claim to provide this service for $199.00, I'm gonna call and see whats up, thanks for all the replys, you guys rock!

Thanks I'll keep you posted

CJfever
11-22-2013, 9:52 PM
The P.C. 851.8 ONLY works if you were arrested of detained NOT convicted.

ToxicWaste
11-22-2013, 10:43 PM
Ill find out, I was told it works if you were convicted, but won't know for sure until I talk to lawyer, thanks for the reply, seems like you shouldnt have to pay to have charges removed that were dropped, but stay on your record.

Law enforcement, that is the name of the business, and not what they really do!

Spyder
11-23-2013, 12:32 AM
I wouldn't trust a $199 internet special lawyer on this either. I'd shop around for a GREAT lawyer with experience in these sorts of things. It's going to affect the rest of your life, spend some more time and money on it.

Good luck, and whatever it was that you did before, I'm glad to see you've kept out of it since then. Most deserve a second chance.

Semi off-topic, but I recommend Dave's Killer Bread to everyone. It's tasty, and has a great story behind it. :D

sl0re10
11-23-2013, 7:23 AM
^^^^^THIS^^^^^

Also please note that many private entities use privately maintained databases (like LEXIS/NEXIS) to do their background checks. Those private databases collect their data from public sources at the time its created. They're not so good at capturing later changes to the data.

maybe he is asking which attorney or practice to conctact.

sl0re10
11-23-2013, 7:28 AM
Online, I have found lawyers that claim to provide this service for $199.00, I'm gonna call and see whats up, thanks for all the replys, you guys rock!

Thanks I'll keep you posted

This kind of thing is more like $2k and change.

You will have a couple a couple problems. As someone mentioned there is a time limit and the rules your citing are for people that were factually innocent.

Johnny Lightning
11-23-2013, 7:48 AM
This is a procedural thing. Not something which requires a lawyer. If you are a product of our excellent school system then you should be able to do this yourself. Find Nolo Press online, they have all the info you need. This is not a speed contest. Read the info, figure out what you need to do, then begin the steps. I have represented myself many times and I have a nearly 100% success rate. If the paperwork is right you will find that judges will treat you very fairly. But whatever you do, do not get a lawyer. They are 9/10ths of the problem. Remember, Nolo Press.

Spyder
11-23-2013, 8:49 AM
I have represented myself many times and I have a nearly 100% success rate.

And the times that make up the less than 100% success? Where they something that could deny you your civil and constitutional rights for the rest of your life? These things shouldn't be taken lightly.

ToxicWaste
11-26-2013, 1:06 PM
I found a lawyer that will remove my two felony charges that were dropped, and my felony that was reduced to a misdemeanor, then pleas of guilty set aside. $350 to have background record check updated. Nothing to really seal any convictions though.

They said for $1400 they can try to have two misdemeanors with probation violation set aside and removed from background check, but no guarantee the judge will grant it.

soutthpaw
11-26-2013, 1:22 PM
I found a lawyer that will remove my two felony charges that were dropped, and my felony that was reduced to a misdemeanor, then pleas of guilty set aside. $350 to have background record check updated. Nothing to really seal any convictions though.

They said for $1400 they can try to have two misdemeanors with probation violation set aside and removed from background check, but no guarantee the judge will grant it.

This migh sounds cynical, but would it not have been a better idea to spend your money on a good lawyer to clear your criminal record before spending it too buy 6 guns??

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

POLICESTATE
11-26-2013, 1:25 PM
This migh sounds cynical, but would it not have been a better idea to spend your money on a good lawyer to clear your criminal record before spending it too buy 6 guns??

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

When SHTF is only a catastrophe away? No, I think getting the guns first is a good idea. That way if society crumbles records won't matter worth a damn anyway. :D

soutthpaw
11-26-2013, 1:48 PM
When SHTF is only a catastrophe away? No, I think getting the guns first is a good idea. That way if society crumbles records won't matter worth a damn anyway. :D

Guess hee should have thought about this before getting multiple felony arrests...

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

POLICESTATE
11-26-2013, 1:56 PM
Guess hee should have thought about this before getting multiple felony arrests...

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

Well you know how it can be with people when they're young, they do stupid things, but then they have to pay with it for the rest of their lives.

Like in *****, you flunk a single math test so you might as well just throw yourself in front of a speeding train because that's it, game over.

This is why I believe that once you pay your debt to society, you are good to go. And if you are such a bad guy that you can never truly pay your debt, you either leave the country under pain of death, or you get put to death. No sense keeping a rabid dog around, even if he's on a short leash behind a strong fence.

mlevans66
11-26-2013, 2:44 PM
Well you know how it can be with people when they're young, they do stupid things, but then they have to pay with it for the rest of their lives.

Like in *****, you flunk a single math test so you might as well just throw yourself in front of a speeding train because that's it, game over.

This is why I believe that once you pay your debt to society, you are good to go. And if you are such a bad guy that you can never truly pay your debt, you either leave the country under pain of death, or you get put to death. No sense keeping a rabid dog around, even if he's on a short leash behind a strong fence.

Been there and that train hurt. :D

ToxicWaste
11-27-2013, 10:04 AM
This migh sounds cynical, but would it not have been a better idea to spend your money on a good lawyer to clear your criminal record before spending it too buy 6 guns??

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

You are absolutely correct, I had no idea when my firearm rights were restores that I would still have this on my record. I have had constant employment since then and the only background check I had recently was to be a sub-contractor to work at Lockheed, however, they only went back 7 years, which shows absolutely nothing. That reinforced my confidence that new employers wouldn't do much more than that.

Being young and dumb is by far no excuse! Now I know what I have to do. Of course the reason I got arrested in the first place was from being young and dumb, and at the wrong place for me at the wrong time.

Thanks for all of the information here, you guys are great

CJfever
12-02-2013, 4:59 PM
I found a lawyer that will remove my two felony charges that were dropped, and my felony that was reduced to a misdemeanor, then pleas of guilty set aside. $350 to have background record check updated. Nothing to really seal any convictions though.

They said for $1400 they can try to have two misdemeanors with probation violation set aside and removed from background check, but no guarantee the judge will grant it.

You can do this yourself, contact a Public Defender to handle your case for FREE......Did I say FREEEEEEE

ToxicWaste
12-07-2013, 3:48 PM
I found a lawyer that can do this process for $600.00. it is worth it to me just to get it over with.

ToxicWaste
12-17-2013, 9:27 PM
You are absolutely correct, I had no idea when my firearm rights were restores that I would still have this on my record. I have had constant employment since then and the only background check I had recently was to be a sub-contractor to work at Lockheed, however, they only went back 7 years, which shows absolutely nothing. That reinforced my confidence that new employers wouldn't do much more than that.

Being young and dumb is by far no excuse! Now I know what I have to do. Of course the reason I got arrested in the first place was from being young and dumb, and at the wrong place for me at the wrong time.

Thanks for all of the information here, you guys are great

Yes you can have the public defender file the papers for you and represent you in court, and hope for the best.

wcoastpi
12-18-2013, 8:00 PM
Hello, couldn't find a welcome forum, so Hello and glad to be here.

I have a legal situation ongoing right now. I had a felony in 1995 for one of those misdemeanors that prohibit gun ownership for 10 years. I violated probation, they caught me with 14 guns in my home, and I was sentenced to county jail for one year, a wobbler offense.

In 2000 I petitioned the court to reduce the felony to a misdemeanor under Penal Code 17, and they did, and also set aside the misdemeanor, Penal Code 1203.3, and 1203.4. They terminated my probation.

My gun rights have been restored since I do not have a felony. I have purchased six different guns at different gun shops, registered FFL dealers, did the DROS form and had no problem purchasing firearms.

My problem I have is that even though I had a felony, which now is set aside, it still shows up on a background check.

The district attorney told me to file a 851.8 form to have my record sealed and destroyed so it will not show up on a background check.

Is anyone here familiar with this procedure. I have been turned down for jobs because this shows up, and even though I have the court minute order, it doesn't help. I have been told that Penal Code 17 which reduced the felony to a misdemeanor isn't easy to do, which I had no problem doing.

I have my paperwork filled out and am ready to turn it in. I have been told that the L.A. County Sheriff normally denies every one of these, and then it gets sent to the Judge for a final decision.

Have you obtained a copy of your record from the FBI? When you were turned down for jobs, did they finger print you?

I work as a fraud investigator for a city gov. I handle Section 8 HUD housing. A felony record (within 5 years) can be a basis for denial. I have had applicants (like yourself) have a F record shown up on their background. But as in your case, when the F is reduced, at the bottom of the FBI report, the report also indicates the reduction or that the case was ex-sponged along with the section authority.

Forewarned
12-19-2013, 9:36 AM
Toxic we have a lot in common, I messed up at 18. I've had my felony reduced and expunged, and a couple of Misdemeanors after that expunged or what ever they do for those. I have one misdemeanor left on my record that they would not remove, probably because it was a probation violation but it was so long ago I don't remember. If you ever get it all removed off your record so it does not show up on a live scan I'd like to know how so I could give it a shot. good luck

ToxicWaste
12-20-2013, 12:11 AM
I have had to hire a lawyer to get my background check to reflect the proper status, a clerical error in California says I have a felony, which I do not.

I have been a gun owner in California since 1978 and cannot believe how the laws have changed and keep on changing to take away our 2nd amendment right. I do advise everybody to keep current on the laws as they come out and be cautious. Do not break the law, and be careful.

I am within the law and still have not happy about California changing the laws as they do, over and over. I remember the days of being able to walk into a gun shop and purchase a rifle or shotgun and take it home the same day.

ToxicWaste
12-20-2013, 3:06 PM
Have you obtained a copy of your record from the FBI? When you were turned down for jobs, did they finger print you?

I work as a fraud investigator for a city gov. I handle Section 8 HUD housing. A felony record (within 5 years) can be a basis for denial. I have had applicants (like yourself) have a F record shown up on their background. But as in your case, when the F is reduced, at the bottom of the FBI report, the report also indicates the reduction or that the case was ex-sponged along with the section authority.

There a lot of service providers available on the internet for background checks. Isn't there a standard or a credible places that are used by employers rather than on of the many 1000's of other online checks?

Without a live scan or finger prints, what can the quality of a background check possibly be?

ToxicWaste
01-07-2014, 1:45 PM
I did have a livescan done, and really don't like the results, they keep every arrest of what ever the officers write down. Whats wrong with these law enforcement officials, did they get beat up every day at school, and want to get even with the world?

HUTCH 7.62
01-07-2014, 1:56 PM
Been there and that train hurt. :D

I think he was policestate about Palo Alto but heck what do I know

SVT-40
01-07-2014, 2:40 PM
I did have a livescan done, and really don't like the results, they keep every arrest of what ever the officers write down. Whats wrong with these law enforcement officials, did they get beat up every day at school, and want to get even with the world?

Every dog has a tail... Your just reflects your previous actions.

So don't blame Law Enforcement for documenting your actions. After all they were your actions...

One other thing... No matter what you do the original paper records will still exist documenting your behavior and arrests....

sl0re10
01-08-2014, 5:58 AM
There a lot of service providers available on the internet for background checks. Isn't there a standard or a credible places that are used by employers rather than on of the many 1000's of other online checks?

Without a live scan or finger prints, what can the quality of a background check possibly be?

On the other hand you could look for someone (probably an attorney's office) that has a email list of almost all of these background check places. Ask if you can pay something to have your updated status sent to them all (like they do for people they represented in court).

Squirly
01-08-2014, 7:16 AM
Call you local public defender office and ask them to run a check on your background. You may need expungement. Explain to the public defender. He helped me

ToxicWaste
01-14-2014, 1:39 PM
I got a PFEC, came back able to own and purchase firearms, and my DOJ rapsheet, which shows felony reduced to misdemeanor, and misdemeanor dismissed.

Public background checks all show the felony arrest, and felony conviction only. They do not show my other arrests and convistions of misdemeanors. I have a lawyer that filed papers to expunge my complete record and update background check.

Funny think I can purchase firearms, but can't pass a background check to get a job!

michaelthetrojan
01-14-2014, 1:42 PM
Hey OP good job on getting a good user name ;) usually the good ones are taken

ToxicWaste
04-10-2014, 9:17 PM
Its been more than four months since I hired the lawyer, He filed court papers, I gave him personal and professional references, and a declaration on why I require to have my two misdemeanors which I violated probation on, plus another misdemeanor cleared.

My lawyer has now cleared my entire rap sheet, all crimes have been re-opened, a plea of not guilty entered and accepted by the court, and all cases have been dismissed.

I did a background check, I have not been this happy since I can't remember when. Cost was $1,150. I know I could have done it for free using a public defender, but I really didn't have time and wanted it done, and complete.

He has my background checks updated also. The public can look at a clean rap sheet, the court, law enforcement and some government agencies can still see my rap sheet, but it shows all arrests, crimes, convistions, and also shows that the cases were re-opened and all charges have been dismissed.

This has been updated with the FBI, and DOJ. So when I have a background check done by a lawyer, I am 100% clean as can be!

I did lawyer shopping before I choose the lawyer that I used. Most of the lawyers were all business, and talked with a harsh tone to their voice, the lawyer I hired not only had the lowest price, he offered a guarantee if the cases did not get dismissed. He talked to me just like a regular guy having a conversation, and no mumbo jumbo, no B.S. and that impressed me.

When he filed the papers, he contacted the District Attorney, and the D.A. said they will not object in court, so my lawyer didn't even have to go to court, it has been about 4 months, and all done now.

My rap sheet had a mistake on it, said I had a felony that I did not have, but he had that reduced to a misdemeanor and then dismissed anyways at no extra charge. I had a PFEC done 6 months ago to verify that I was able to purchase and own firearms, so that does prove that I did not have a felony that was reduced and dismissed anyways.

I am very happy that this is now done and over with, and think I should celebrate by going out and purchasing a new sig P229 357 or 40 cal, in stainless, semi-auto.

I like Sig Sauer for some reason, also like stainless, I already have a Sig P232 380 auto stainless, Sig P226 9mm stainless, and a Sig P2340 40 cal.

CAguy
04-10-2014, 9:52 PM
Congratulations! Must feel great to be equal again! Keep your nose clean and get busy collecting/shooting. :63:

jessegpresley
04-10-2014, 10:24 PM
I don't know anything about the law, but Toxic Waste sounds like you got your sh* t together, and have kept it together, so props to you.

zoid52
04-11-2014, 6:00 AM
Congrats!

e90bmw
04-11-2014, 9:18 AM
Congrats!

What he said.... +1

HUTCH 7.62
04-11-2014, 11:48 AM
Congrats OP! And thank you for this thread

ToxicWaste
04-11-2014, 1:50 PM
I was young and dum, hung around the wrong crowd, if you know what I mean, didn't know the impact a criminal record could produce in the future. I am very lucky that my crimes were very minimal and nothing violent, no theft either.

If any younger people read this thresd, please think hard before you do anything, don't break any laws, don't drink and drive, which is very serious and that will be hard to expunge. I have taken several months to do this, cost me some money, had to get my rap sheet with a live scan for the lawyer, had to get minute orders from the court, had to get a PFEC also.

This all takes lots of time and money. learn from my mistakes please, so you do not have to try to recover your civil rights, have your felonies reduced to misdemeanors if they are eligible, and then have the misdemeanors dismissed. Having your gun rights restored are very difficult! Please, please, read this thread closly, I am one of the few that has got lucky and did have help from a lawyer. If you get one of those misdemeanors that prohibit you from having a firearm for 10 years, have your parents take custody of them, you ammo, magazines, and all gun stuff. be careful.

I don't know what else to say, or how to say it, I was in some serious trouble and almost landed in prison! I got lucky and only did a year in the county jail. Obey the law! make your self a better person! I am receiving a few private messages about my case and what lawyer I used, and am glad to respond to them.

My best advice is obey the law, as owning and purchasing a firearm carries a lot of responsibility. If you break the law, you show your lack of responsibility, and probably will lose your gun rights for life!

ToxicWaste
04-11-2014, 1:50 PM
deleted duplicate message, sorry about that

ToxicWaste
04-12-2014, 4:00 PM
Have another road block, the judge said I will get the gun back, the district attorney said I will get my gun back.

I sent in the proper forms and the $20 money order and a Law Enforcement Gun Release Application. I just received in the mail today a paper that states that "There is no record of this firearm in AFS" So, maybe they were given the wrong serial number of the hand gun.

The FFL dealer was put out of business for I donl know why, but they said all their records were confiscated by the ATF, I believe that is the agency they say has them.

I do not have the receipt or paper work, only have the original case it came in with the book that was in the case.

Does anybody have any information on a situation like this, wouldn't the chain of custody from the time the gun was given to the sheriff, then booked into evidence show that that is my firearm? even if they made an error on the serial number. The defendant plead guilty and admitted to stealing the weapon from my truck.

Does anybody here have any advice or what can I do.

When the sheriff took the theft report he punched up on his mobile data terminal, and I believe that this weapon showed a picture of it, pretty sure.

I have a Automated Firearms System Request For Firearm Records that I will send in, and hopefully it will list my weapon, correct serial number and model, and being purchased by me from a FFL dealer.

I would think that the hand gun in question here was booked into evidence and would have the case number of the police report attached to it, because they were prepared to go to trial, and use it as evidence. They have custody of the weapon, they did my background check which took almost a month, and said I am eligible to own and purchase firearms, but cannot find this particular gun because there is no record of this firearm in AFS.

This has been a nightmare, having a 40 caliber pistol stolen, with a 12 round magazine, the defendant plead guilty, received close to 5 year sentence in the state prison, I would think that they can locate this firearm, and know it has to be mine, as I can describe it, I added a red laser dot sight to the hand grip also, which is a distinguishing feature, which should help isolate it too.

I will wait and check back and see if anybody here can help me with this issue. It is a Sig Sauer P2340 40 caliber with crimson trace red laser that I purchased from e-bay!

Thanks in Advance, so far this site has had more information than a regular citizen could ever possibly ever need. When I purchased the weapon in 2005 wouldn't there be a form 4473 on file somewhere that has my name and the weapon description with serial number.

Thanks,

Librarian
04-12-2014, 4:27 PM
Have another road block, the judge said I will get the gun back, the district attorney said I will get my gun back.

...

When I purchased the weapon in 2005 wouldn't there be a form 4473 on file somewhere that has my name and the weapon description with serial number.

Thanks,Yes, there would. But if ATF has the records, they're likely in a warehouse somewhere, and hard to get at.

ToxicWaste
04-12-2014, 5:40 PM
I will contact the detective in charge of the case and the district attorney and see if they can help me. I also have a Federal Firearms Licensee Report to send in, it is supposed to show all firearms that were purchased by the original owner. Hopefully they can identify my Sig Sauer P2340 as me being the original owner, and actually, I am and always have been the only owner. I love my Sig Sauer 2340, and at the time it was stolen, had to make a decision to report it stolen and let the law do it job, or take it and the computer back and send this kid on his way.

I thought the magnitude of this crime needed to be made aware to the County Sheriff, and when I filed the report, we found out that he had just been released from county jail for a felony, posession of meth-amphetamine for sale.

I had the weapon locked in a hefty secure metal box, that had a 1/2" thick cable securing the metal container to the vehicle. The kid broke it open, and I had a 12 round magazine locked inside of another hefty metal container.

This incident really disturbed me as being the owner of a firearm that was being transported from my house to my safe and lock it up. I had the firearm at the rented house for cleaning, and it was stolen, one more day, and it would have been safely locked in an approved gun safe in my storage.

This incident really bothered me badly, I would feel absolutely terrible if my stolen weapon was used in a crime, or even worse, somebody being shot with this weapon.

Meth-Amphetamine is a very bad and dangerous street drug, and the people that use it are out of control, and this alone is a problem. The drug causes people to lose their mind in a dangerous and careless way, and there is no telling what any of these people are capable of, especially with a 40 caliber semi auto pistol with 12 rounds of high quality hollow point bullets.

This is a fine example of why people convicted of a felony are banned for life from owning, purchasing, having under control of a fire arm. I learned a lot from this incident, and it really put some scare into me, my weapon could have caused a lot of damage to human life in the hands of this meth head. I hope people read this thread and can gain some knowledge about the world we live in, and that some people have flagrant disregard for the law!

ToxicWaste
04-13-2014, 4:59 PM
I will contact detective in charge of this case and ask him what I can do to get my weapon back. I will also contact the District Attorney to see if their office can help me.

They were prepared to go to trial. That means that they had access to the weapon for court use. To me, this means that they can access the property and identify it by the case number, and my police report.

However, we have all heard stories about trying to get weapons back from police custody, where they have problems.

I can only make phone calls during Monday thru Friday, and during their work hours. I will check back here and keep this thread updated of my progress.

I hate to lose my Sig Sauer P2340 40 caliber with a crimson trace laser built into grip.

I have been looking at getting a new Sig, I like the P229 stainless in 357 cal. with the walnut grips. They have a california only model, and the all other states model. This 10 round magazine capacity is not what I want, but being in California, have no choice. Maybe I will get the P229 in stainless 40 cal.

ToxicWaste
04-14-2014, 12:48 PM
As I mentioned in my last post, I am trying to get back my stolen gun. The sheriff dept has it. The police report I filed has the serial number and description on it. The defendant admits to stealing it from me. The sheriff told me that they have no problem giving it back to me except, they require the LEGR form that I sent to DOJ to show I am eligible to own a firearm and that it is registered to me.

The DOJ replied that I am elibible to own and purchase firearms, but this gun serial number was never entered into their data base. I do not have the receipt, and the FFL dealer lost their license, all paperwork has been consfiscated by the ATF.

I am pretty sure that when the sheriff took the report they had in the patrol car a mobile data terminal that shows all of my hand guns! I have to do more research and find out it so, then this should show that I owned the hand gun in question.

The DOJ does not answer their phone and I have a paper to send to them that might work. New law as of the first of this year, all handguns will be registered to the purchaser from the FFL dealer by make, model, description, and serial number.

What this means, if you have a hand gun stolen and it is not registered with the DOJ, in your name, then you cannot get it back!

I am making calls, and trying to see what I can do to get my weapon back, all I have is the original blue plastic case it came in, and the hand book that came with it.

The district attorney and judge have no objection to me getting it back, the sheriff and detective have no objection to me getting it back, the property clerk wants to see the paper from DOJ, saying I am the registered owner of this firearm, and they will give it to me.

I went to pick up my Dell laptop computer, they handed it to me with an envelope. the envelope contained the 12 round magazine with 12 hollow point rounds. I think don't know if this was supposed to remain with the fun or not. It is difficult to make progress when dealing with the department of Justice, I have a form to send in NOW, that says it is my gun, but don't know if they will accept it and give me the gun back.

I will keep this threat updated as events occur, and if anybody else has any suggestions on what I can do, please let me know!

Basically, I have the chain of custody from when it was stolen, booked into evidence, and stored at sheriff station, which the district attorney told me that should be enough depending on what the detective in charge of this case says.

ToxicWaste
04-14-2014, 1:47 PM
New Update:

I have been on the phone with just about everybody, The ATF says they have no records at all for any gun transactions.

I got a direct phone number to the DOJ, the lady ran my name and birthdate, and shows that I am the original purchaser of this firearm, and that the LEGR form must be a mistake where they show that I do not own this gun. DOJ says upon purchasing a firearm a form 4473 is filled out and kept with the purchasers name, and all personal information.

What this means in California if you have a weapon stolen, it must be registered with DOJ in Sacramento or you will not be able to get it back. It doesnt matter if you have the original receipt, or a copy of the DROS for either. A stolen gun in this state has to be on file with the owners name and personal information, along with the gun information. This applies to getting the weapon back if it was stolen!

Good information to know. I was told by the county sheriff that this law came into effect the January 2014. Basically it says that if your gun is stolen and you want it back, it has to be in the Automated Firearm System maintained by the DOJ.

I was also told that when I purchased the firearm, a form 4473 was filled ouot, and this is how they have a record of my firearm.

In case you have any weapons that are not registered to you there is a form "Firearm Ownership Report" that you can submit to get your info with the firearm into the data base.

The explaination the DOJ gives me is that returning a stolen weapon has to go to the person that is recorded in their system as being the owner. For obvious reasons, somebody might have a stolen gun in their posession, and it was stolen from them, they do not want to return it, unless the 4473 was submitted by the FFL dealer, or the Firearm Ownership Report is submitted.

Good information to have. They managed to give me back the 12 round magazine with 12 hollow point bullets, nice of them!

I am supposed to have more information tomorrow, will update as I find out. The sheriff told me if the court case terminated last year, and I showed up to retrieve the weapon before the first of the year, this would not be necessary.

This has been a long drawn out process going through being a victim of a stolen hand gun, especially since it has a 12 round magazine. I have had the magazine many years before I had the gun. I have many magazines that hole more than 10 rounds that I do not have a gun that they will work in. The district attorney has no problem with me owning these magazines as long as I do not sell, give, loan, and you know the rest of the things you cannot do with magazines over 10 rounds.

ToxicWaste
04-15-2014, 2:19 PM
Trying to get my hand gun back has been a full time chore. I finally got lucky and have a phone number of the D.O.J. where an actual person answers the phone. This lady was helpful beyond all belief. She ran my drivers license number and has access to all my handguns that were purchased through a FFL, and she has my hand gun (Court Evidence) listed, and shows me as the original purchaser through a licensed FFL.

This lady took my information, and I told her my story about this weapon, that the D.O.J. shows no record or it being in existence, let alone being purchased by me.

She also pulled up the LEGR form I sent in to have a background check done, and said I am allowed to own, purchase, and posess firearms. She has fixed the problem, which my LEGR form said there is no record of this weapon. She is sending me a official letter, with the Gold Embossed seal on it that stated I purchased this weapon, with all the gin information, serial number, characteristics, and everything else, also that it is legally registered to me as being the person that purchased it.

When I receive the letter, I take it to the sheriff dept that has it in the evidence room, and the property clerk said she will give me my property back.

I think that most people here know about making phone calls and having to go through all those voice/data machines with the menus and after many menus, never get a real person to talk to. I was lucky because I have a phone number to the D.O.J. in Sacramento, CA, where a person answers the phone. It didn't take long at all to get this done. The BATF says, they have no records at all (well that is what they say), but see my self lucky as I will get my weapon back I wonder if they test fire it and take ballistics and see if they can match it up to a unsolved crime? I also wonder if they test fire it and keep the ballistics on file!

ToxicWaste
04-15-2014, 9:40 PM
I filled out the proper paperwork to retrieve my gun that was stolen, a LEGR form, Law Enforcement Gun Release. D.O.J. said that this gun is not registered to anybody. If you ever have a gun stolen, or somehow ends up in custody of law enforcement, this process is necessary and the only way that you can get it back. I finally found the receipt, and copy of DROS, and the sheriff well, they didn't laugh at me, but told me that D.O.J. is the decision maker on if I get it back or not. Then I think the sheriff went in the back room and laughed! A new law that started this year, 1 January 2014 is the reason for this. If I had tried to retrieve the gun from evidence last year, they would have had to give it to me.

The judge said I can have it back, the District Attorney said I can have it back, the Detective said I can have it back. The property clerk said I cannot have it back unless D.O.J. says it is registered to me, no exceptions.

I finally got a number to the D.O.J. in Sacraments, and two rings, and a real person answered it! Helped me out, and I will get my Sig Sauer P2340 40 cal with crimson trace laser back. Here is the phone number that a real person answers and not a machine, the lady is very helpful. 916-227-3644

First of all, every other phone number I called is an automated system, with menus, you do not get the chance to talk to a live person. The lady that answered looked me up by my drivers license number, found my Sig Sauer P2340, the one that was stolen and verified that I was listed at the original purchaser from the FFL dealer, then escalated it up to her supervisor.

The next day, the supervisor called me and asked me why I cannot get my gun out of sheriff evidence, I told her that D.O.J. reports that this gun was never registered with the AFS, Automated Firearm System. She told me that yes it is registered to me, and will send me a LEGR, Law Enforcement Gun Release to reflect I am the registered owner. Simple as that. The property clerk has given me back my 12 round magazine with 12 hollow point rounds. I have to wait for D.O.J. to send me updated paperwork.

When the firearm was first taken into evidence, there was a discussion about the magazine being able to hole more than 10 rounds. I was questioned by the district attorney about this. I had little to say, as I didn't want to have any issues over this magazine. It has been my property since 1999. There is a good thread about magazines that say it is legal to use and own no matter how you obtained it, as long as you did not manufacture, or bring it in from another state. Also, which does not apply here is that I have had it more than 36 months, which is the statute of limitations. The burden of proof is on the prosecutor to show that I have owned it less than 36 months, and manufactured it or had it brought into the state. Once this was established, the District Attorney said it is mine and I will get it back, as I already did. None of us knew there was going to be a ban on magazines that hold more than 10 rounds, I have several magazines that hold more than 10 rounds, that I have had before the year 2000. Now it is illegal for me to sell, give, lend, and so on. I will keep them, even though I do not have the guns that they work with.

I have read about many people having a difficult time getting weapons back from law enforcement custody, and now they just made it a little bit harder.

One more thing, the supervisor told me that I can send in a Firearm Ownership Report to show that I am the registered owner, even after the fact. I strongly believe that it matters who you talk to because they might have a reason to ignore this after the fact, since anybody can send in this form and try to claim to be the owner.

ToxicWaste
04-18-2014, 12:49 PM
Update:

The Department of Justice has sent me a letter, A Law Enforcement Gun Release - Firearms Eligibility Clearance.

They found a discrepancy with their paper work and recorded my serial number wrong.

The two page letter says that , This firearm is recorded in AFS and the firearm is recorded in the name of the individual who is seeking its return.

I called the property clerk at sheriff station, she said it is in another city for storage since the trial ended, and it will be available for pick up next Friday. The letter they send from D.O.J. is on really nice paper with a Gold Sear on it.

Now, I have to wait until next Friday, when they make their run from what ever city has it, and brings it up to the sheriff station that took custody of it originally, I I should get it back, as stated above, I already have the magazine and bullets.

Update to follow next Friday! Right now, it is my favorite Sig Sauer hand gun, and I have my eye on the Sig Sauer P229 in stainless 357. I don't know if they are available in California,

ToxicWaste
04-19-2014, 9:33 PM
Should be able to pick up my Sig Sauer P2340 from sheriff evidence Friday, Background check partially done, My whole rap sheet has been cleared to show nothing to employers.

175_MPH_SS
04-27-2014, 6:40 PM
Hope it got back to you all nice and pretty! I had my P220 in CHP evidence for several weeks. When I got it back in the large ziplock evidence bag the magazine had been in there loose, floating around scratching the slide up quite a bit. Still has them scratches today. I don't repair it because every time I take it out to shoot and see the scratches I remember that night telling the CHiP "I'm going to need a receipt or some paperwork for that handgun your confiscating!" then his smug reply... "you'll never see this gun again!"

Addendum: When I did get it back I said "where are the 7rds that we're in the magazine!" CHiPpy at the counter just smirked and said "I can't give those back to you, be glad your getting the gun back... so tell me how do you get gun charges dropped for lack of evidence, then walk in here to get your gun... OUT OF EVIDENCE!?" Then I smirked, grabbed my evidence and walked out.

I've grown to love those scratches.

Tarasdad
04-27-2014, 9:14 PM
There's no way the Cal DOJ should have access to any Form 4473. Those are to remain in the possession of the original dealer as long as they are in business. When they close or are no longer in the business of selling firearms they are boxed up and sent to the BATFE. The gun dealer I worked for in Texas had a warehouse full of file boxes with nothing but 4473s in them. If Cal DOJ is getting purchaser info it's from their DROS system.

Can't begin to tell you how many of those stupid yellow papers I filled out over the years, from both sides of the counter!

ToxicWaste
04-28-2014, 11:24 PM
Well California D.O.J. sent me a letter with a gold embossed stamp on it saying it is ok for me to retrieve the hand gun from evidence, as it shows me as being the owner through the Automated Firearms System.

The FFL dealer had their shop closed and records seized by the ATF, and the ATF says they know nothing about it.

I went to sheriff station today to get my firearm, and the evidence clerk was nowhere to be found. I was ready to get it a week ago, but they shipped it to some warehouse in Los Angeles, it should have been back into custody where I live, but have to get it form the evidence officer, I have all the necessary paperwork, which they did another background check on me, and I am cleared once again to own, purchase, and possess firearms. Which I already knew. I did purchase the weapon legally in 2005. I was told, it is up to the FFL dealer to register it with California D.O.J.

A new 2014 law says to retrieve a stolen weapon, it has to be in their system, or you will never see it again! something to think about, I reported it stolen, the chain of custody says I am most likely the owner! But the new law is meant to take firearms off the street from law abiding citizens. I will try once again tomorrow to get my Sig back

I did already get the 12 round magazine and 12 hollow point rounds back. Now all I want is my SIG SAUER P2340 40 cal.

ToxicWaste
04-29-2014, 10:01 AM
This has been a difficult mess having a hand gun stolen, especially with the District Attorney saying I have a felony, which I do not. I have had several background checks, I had a live scan and submitted a PFEC, then anotherD.O.J. background check two more times.

I FINALLY WAS ABLE TO GET MY HANDGUN BACK FROM THE COUNTY SHERIFF!

Last month they gave me back the 12 round magazine with the 12 hollow point rounds. This is not actual picture, but is the same make and model of my Sig P2340.

The property clerk told me to clean the weapon, as it may have been dusted for prints, and it most likely was test fired to keep ballistics on file! Which means, that I am sure they ran the ballistics through their data base and came back clean, but will keep a copy of it on file for future reference.

12 + 1 in the chamber!

bdock
04-29-2014, 12:12 PM
Good for you man. A fellow I work with is going through this right now.

Cant wait to have him out shooting with me once he's all free and clear.

ToxicWaste
04-29-2014, 2:26 PM
This has been quite an experience, getting the gun back from the sheriff was a chore. Glad it is home once again.

ToxicWaste
04-29-2014, 6:42 PM
At the beginning of this thread, I had an issue of having my felony reduced to a misdemeanor via P.C. 17b, which reduced it to a misdemeanor, and that alone restored my civil rights, but it was dismissed via penal code 1203.4, which re-opened the case, a plea of not guilty and accepted by the court, case dismissed, which I verified on a live scan, my rap sheet reflects this.

Technically, a dismissed charge cannot be used against you in the private sector. If you run for public office, or get involved with the lottery, and I forgot, one other entity, you have to disclose it, but it is not held against you.

For those that go ahead and get a felony reduced to a misdemeanor, and/or the misdemeanor dismissed, there is one step left. You must have your background check updated to reflect the current status, or it will still show up on a background check.

My background check used to look bad, real bad, it only has two items left to correct. My lawyer is going beyond what I have paid him for, and understands that it means the whole employment world to me to start out fresh.

My background check, any day, will be a blank piece of paper! Nothing on it. The Law enforcement agencies can access my complete record and see the crimes, and the dismissals though. There is one more process available to get them permanently destroyed. I believe the cost is $1,000 per case, and I have three cases. First they seal the record from view by anybody, then after three years, they are permanently destroyed.

Anybody with a felony out here, there is hope, it just takes the right lawyer, and money. if your sentence did not include going to state prison, you can file the paperwork yourself, and probably have it granted, as I did my felony in July 2000. If you went to state prison, it still can be done, but more difficult, and cost more. Don't throw in the towel if you are determined to get rid of a felony, or even one of those 40 or so misdemeanors that prohibit you from owning a firearm, which is how I ended up with a felony, from the most simple crime on the misdemeanor list 240 P.C. which is the same as yelling at someone in public, landed me in county jail for a year, with a felony. All this is gone now, and I am free and clear of the law enforcement system. I probably will go for the record sealing, which will permanently destroy the records.

It is a great feeling! :)

Cleaning my Sig Sauer P2340, since it was test fired by D.O.J. for ballistics test and record keeping! Besides, it has been in custody since last August, and needs a good clean and oil!

ToxicWaste
04-30-2014, 11:47 AM
Here is what employers will see now, on my updated background check.

Unfortunately we were unable to find any results for "My Name Goes Here" in our background check database.

I have a blank background check now! It is quite a relief. For most jobs in California, they are only allowed to go back 7 years, unless it is government type work, and certain other agencies.

dca965
04-30-2014, 11:52 AM
Congrats!

ToxicWaste
04-30-2014, 1:23 PM
I've been through hell getting this accomplished, I have had many pm me on how to go about this, I hope to help others with this same situation, as it is not that hard to do, and you can even use a public defender. If you are low income, the court fees can be waived. It has taken almost six months, but well worth it.

ToxicWaste
05-05-2014, 10:09 AM
Finally done, this has taken about 5 months, I had my complete criminal history, as far as the public can see, expunged and dismissed, and my background check updated. Here is my new background check that employers will see. If anybody needs any information on my lawyer or how I achieved this, send pm, I will be glad to help, as I have been in the past victimize by the law enforcement system. I was allowed to start purchasing firearms again in 2005, and here is my background check!


My Name Goes Here, Birthdate goes here
Subscriptions

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Criminal History
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Addresses
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Appendix

Criminal History

A search of a person's criminal conviction history ranging from moving violations to more serious crimes which may have included prison and/or probation. Backgroundchecks.com has the most comprehensive and up–to-date criminal conviction records from county courts, State Agencies, Department of Corrections, Administration of the Court and state sex offender registries, covering 49 states, including Washington D.C., Guam and Puerto Rico. Our database also includes over million criminal photos.
Report Updated:

5/5/2014

Records checked:

County Courts: 0 records found
State Agencies: 0 records found
Department of Corrections: 0 records found
State sex offender registries, covering 49 states, including
Washington D.C., Guam and Puerto Rico:
0 records found

There are several reasons why records might not be found:

The search was conducted with incorrect information like a misspelled first or last name and/or the incorrect DOB or age.
You entered a hyphenated name, middle initial in the first name box, a suffix such as JR, SR, II, III, IV at the end of the last name or a special character in the first or last name box.
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The missing record is not within the agreed available covered jurisdictions. All instant access criminal record search companies offer limited criminal record coverage, most likely the known record is not within our coverage acknowledged in our terms and conditions. The fact is, not all county, or municipal courts nationally will share their information with third party companies or do not have the records indexed in a searchable format.
The missing record is expunged or sealed by court order.
The person searched was a minor at the time of the records inception as Juvenile Records are not part of our coverage.
The person searched has an Arrest and arrest records are not part of our coverage.

Never though this could be done, especially with my not so good looking rap-sheet. My rap-sheet had a mistake that showed a misdemeanor as a felony, and my lawyer went ahead and had that false felony reduced to a misdemeanor via pc 17a, and then the misdemeanor dismissed via pc 1203.4

I feel like a new person, and don't know what to say! Anybody here with a felony, or misdemeanors, don't give up hope, as there are different solutions and paths you can follow! I was denied jobs over the years because of misdemeanors, and then the felony. Now I am good to go! Probably to the gun store and buy a hand gun! Thanks for all the support from Calguns.net. The members here have more knowledge than the people that make our laws. Only reason I had a felony was due to one of those misdemeanors that prohibit you from owning a firearm for 10 years, and lost about 16 awesome firearms, most of them are now considered assault weapons in California.

sully007
12-04-2014, 5:52 PM
When SHTF is only a catastrophe away? No, I think getting the guns first is a good idea. That way if society crumbles records won't matter worth a damn anyway. :D


That's right zombies can't read anyway.

skillz91745
05-17-2015, 8:23 AM
This is old and I am new to the form. However, thank you. You stated more then what some legal websites and lawyers know. Do you still have the contact information to that lawyer?

I have some of you beat by a long shot. My felony conviction was in 1991. It was dismissed/expunged and reduced to a misdemeanor in 1996. I thought I was finished.

I worked at Juvenile hall in OC. I've had numerous background checks. The only place it still shows up as a felony but not reduced or dismissed is my DOJ rap sheet.

I have not even "breathed wrong" in 24 years. I finished under-grad, grad- school and now in post-grad school. Every1 live scans now days.

Any help would be appreciated.

SkyHawk
05-17-2015, 8:32 AM
I have some of you beat by a long shot. My felony conviction was in 1991. It was dismissed/expunged and reduced to a misdemeanor in 1996. I thought I was finished.

I worked at Juvenile hall in OC. I've had numerous background checks. The only place it still shows up as a felony but not reduced or dismissed is my DOJ rap sheet.

Use this form and follow the instructions to do a livescan. http://oag.ca.gov/fingerprints/security

When you get the results back there will also be a form to file an appeal if you find mistakes on your record. Submit all documents you have and a cover letter explaining the situation and why you think their records are wrong. You need to have dates, court names, etc.

The best thing to do is get court certified transcripts of your case disposition. You can get that from the clerk of the court where your case was handled.

If you still do not get results or you need help, contact Jason Davis http://www.calgunlawyers.com/

Welcome to Calguns, and good luck!

skillz91745
05-17-2015, 2:50 PM
Thank you, I will. I was dealing with the DOJ. By the way, the review records people are clueless. So I wrote them a letter back asking for administrative adjudication. I sent them the certified court document. There is only one court document from that day in 1996. It was just the court hearing so that I can get off probation, dismiss my case, and reduce to a misdemeanor. There is no minutes of the case. The court reporter who still works for the county called me back and laughed she said they are only responsible to keep them for a 10 year period. In fact, the court document I had to go to archives in downtown Los Angeles to get it!

If that does not work I will contact calgunlawyers!

Thanks again

SkyHawk
05-17-2015, 3:18 PM
That one document is the one you need. That should get it done. Follow the process above, because they are obligated by law to review your document and respond (hopefully with a record correction) in a certain time frame when you do. If you send it out of band, they are not obligated to do jack.

skillz91745
05-17-2015, 3:30 PM
Thank you again! Then I probably F'ed up! Hopefully you understand my frustrations. It was unlawful driving of a vehicle "joy riding" all I was, was in the damn car and this **** still haunts me 24 years later!

skillz91745
05-17-2015, 4:26 PM
1) What do you think the ticket is on that lawyer? Like I said in my initial post I'm currently enrolled in school so.....Plus the case has been ruled on it seems like it would be more administrative work!

2) I read Toxics initial post as well, I am wondering if my gun rights have been reestablished? I assumed they were not since the felony conviction comes up on my DOJ rap sheet!

3) There was a question if my felony was a wobbler since I was sentenced to state prison. I heard from 2 lawyers it is and from one it is not. I was sentenced to prison but the terms of my probation stated they DA in 1991 (1) would not object to a reduction to misdemeanor. And in 1996 the DA (2) my attorney (3) and the judge (4) who reduced my felony to a misdemeanor....so four people said my felony was reducible and it was.

But some1 told me that maybe the DOJ never dropped it to a misdemeanor since I was sentenced to state prison. But I never went to prison, I was placed on probation, I did county time, never on parole, therefore I was told that the county still had the proper jurisdiction to reduce it to a misdemeanor

SkyHawk
05-17-2015, 5:01 PM
Did you do time in state prison, or county jail? If you did time in state prison, that could be a problem even if it was a wobbler.

Does your court order say 1203.4 17(b) - Did you in fact request a reduction to misdemeanor via 1203.4 17(b) in 1996?

You can also do a firearms eligibility check - you need to complete this form and have it notarized http://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/agweb/pdfs/firearms/forms/pfecapp.pdf

A lawyer is going to run you $1000 - $1500 for openers, but that should be the extent of it if everything is as you say. Call Jason Davis he can tell you for sure.

skillz91745
05-17-2015, 5:44 PM
I never went to prison. I had a suspended sentence. That's where "lawyers" get confused.

Again it is hard for me to believe that 4 lawyers, actually 5 did it wrong. In 1991 the DA and my attorney agreed to reduce to misdemeanor at sentencing. Those were the terms of probation. 180 days county jail, 2 year suspended prison sentence, probation granted. Again I never went to prison. So most of the lawyers I talked to or asked said I was still under the county's jurisdiction and they had every right to reduce to a misdemeanor as unlawful driving of a vehicle is a wobbler.

And in 1996 the judge that reduced it, the DA and the PD did not object.

As far as the 1204.3 and 17b these are probably different forms today. it states "Pursuant to section 17 penal code, offense is deemed to be a misdemeanor. Line 126 " Probation is ordered terminated pursuant to section 1203.3 and line 127 Plea of guilty or conviction is set aside, plea of not guilty is entered, case is dismissed pursuant to section 1203.4.

skillz91745
05-17-2015, 5:52 PM
Also IMO people get confused and think that a dismissal is better. I tell them hell no. WITH A DISMISSAL YOU ARE STILL A CONVICTED FELON. If it is dropped to a misdemeanor then you have a misdemeanor and not a felony.

I think that 1203.3 is for dismissal.

and 17b is for a reduction to a misdemeanor.

skillz91745
05-17-2015, 5:53 PM
And either way it was reduced to a misdemeanor. I just need the DOJ to fuken do it! LOL

skillz91745
05-17-2015, 6:25 PM
Is this guy a good lawyer man? honest?

SkyHawk
05-17-2015, 6:33 PM
You are right I always get them confused, because they are usually done together in one hearing. And it seems that was done in your case. 1203.4 is the expungement and 17(b) the reduction.

Jason Davis is one of the most trusted gun lawyers in the state, he has helped many people deal with DOJ.

But I would not hire a lawyer yet. It seems like you have what you need to do this yourself, and based on what you have said you should be eligible to own firearms.

Do the personal record review via Livescan and the form, or the PFEC, then when you get the results submit your appeal in writing following the instructions included with the results. Good luck and let us know what happens!

skillz91745
05-17-2015, 7:30 PM
Thank you for all the info. i will!

skillz91745
05-19-2015, 6:44 AM
To your knowledge is unlawful taking of a Vehicle a wobbler if I did county time, was put on probation, and received a suspended prison sentence? I seen on several websites that if you were sentenced to state prison, even though you did not go to prison, then it can not be reduced to a misdemeanor? Keep in mind the conviction was in 1991.

I called a lawyer last week and he said it was reducible, and who in the hell told me it is not. A PD in Pomona courthouse told me it was reducible. Another PD at the CCB in downtown said it was not???

I'm trying to cover all angles. Like I wrote, I have a document that reduced it and dismissed it. I'm just wondering why the DOJ did not put the reduction on my rap sheet. My rap sheet states my probation was terminated on 08/27/1996 but not that my case was dismissed and reduced.

Also, like I previously wrote, I find it hard to believe that 2 judges and 4 or 5 lawyers got it wrong.

Thanks for your time

SkyHawk
05-19-2015, 8:54 AM
You should be good to go if you got the reduction and didn't do time in state prison.

ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
05-19-2015, 9:24 AM
You people are missing a nuance in Californian law. A prison sentence, whether its execution has been suspended or not, means it's a felony forever. A 2 year suspended prison sentence means it's a felony and does not qualify for PC17(b). Probation is defined under Penal Code section 1203 as the suspension of the imposition of sentence or suspension of the execution of the sentence. Imposition of sentence for a felony means that the judge has given you a prison sentence. However, sentence can be imposed but its execution can be suspended. This means that a judge has given you what's colloquially known as a "joint suspension." The judge has given a prison sentence, but you don't go to prison yet. The judge has given you probation, but if you screw up, you get sent to prison for the term that the judge sentenced you. Under Penal Code section 17(b)(3), a felony can be reduced to a misdemeanor "when the court grants probation to a defendant without imposition of sentence." If the judge gave you a suspended prison sentence, then sentence was imposed buts its execution was suspended. I'm not surprised that a lot of people messed this up. When they hear probation, they automatically think it's a suspended imposition of sentence. But probation can also mean a suspended execution of sentence.

skillz91745
05-19-2015, 8:09 PM
I was granted probation. Does that apply?

SkyHawk
05-19-2015, 8:21 PM
If you got the reduction, you are good to go - period. Any nuance would have been accounted for during the 17 hearing. If you didn't qualify for a reduction based on the particulars of your sentence, then you would not have gotten the 17.

ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
05-19-2015, 8:21 PM
I was granted probation. Does that apply?

Under Penal Code section 17(b)(3), a felony can be reduced to a misdemeanor "when the court grants probation to a defendant without imposition of sentence." Probation is the suspension of imposition of a sentence or the suspension of execution of a sentence. So under 17(b)(3), if a person is granted probation, that person is only eligible for a reduction to a misdemeanor if a sentence was not imposed. A person can be granted probation, sentence imposed, and execution of sentence suspended. Under this circumstance, a person does not qualify for 17(b)(3). That is what happened in your case. The judge imposed a two-year prison sentence, but suspended execution. You were given probation but sentence was also imposed. Basically, if you stayed good on probation, you wouldn't get the two-year prison sentence. Therefore, your offense cannot be reduced to a misdemeanor under 17(b)(3). It does qualify for 1203.4 under People v. Parker (2013) 217 Cal.App.4th 498, but a 1203.4 will do nothing for your gun rights..

SkyHawk
05-19-2015, 8:26 PM
In fact if you were sentenced to COUNTY JAIL but the sentence was suspended, you are still eligible for reduction to misdemeanor. And even if you did serve time in county jail, you are still eligible for misdemeanor reduction. I have dealt with such cases first hand. However if you were sentenced to prison, that is another story.

Take a photo of the 17 order you say that you have, with a post it or something over your personal info to block it out. Let us take a look. This is an example of such an order. If you have this, you are probably golden.

http://i57.tinypic.com/2u7wri9.jpg

ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
05-19-2015, 8:43 PM
If you got the reduction, you are good to go - period. Any nuance would have been accounted for during the 17 hearing. If you didn't qualify for a reduction based on the particulars of your sentence, then you would not have gotten the 17.

If skillz91745 truly got a suspended prison sentence, then skillz91745 does not qualify for PC17(b)(3). People v. Wood (1998) 62 Cal.App.4th 1262 said that a person with a suspended prison sentence cannot get a reduction to a misdemeanor. If skillz91745 got a suspended prison sentence, then the order reducing it to a misdemeanor was made in error. Under People v. Mauch (2008) 163 Cal.App.4th 669, a judge cannot reduce a felony to a misdemeanor if the judge lacks the statutory authority to do so. In Mauch, the judge said he was reducing a felony to a misdemeanor, even though it wasn't a wobbler offense. The Court of Appeal said the judge couldn't do that. And I would be guessing this is why California DOJ says skillz91745 is still a felon. The only options now are a pardon from the governor or to somehow vacate the conviction.

MontClaire
05-19-2015, 8:46 PM
You need an attorney. Not responses from anonymous people on an internet forum.

:iagree:

SkyHawk
05-19-2015, 8:54 PM
If skillz91745 truly got a suspended prison sentence, then skillz91745 does not qualify for PC17(b)(3). People v. Wood (1998) 62 Cal.App.4th 1262 said that a person with a suspended prison sentence cannot get a reduction to a misdemeanor. If skillz91745 got a suspended prison sentence, then the order reducing it to a misdemeanor was made in error. Under People v. Mauch (2008) 163 Cal.App.4th 669, a judge cannot reduce a felony to a misdemeanor if the judge lacks the statutory authority to do so. In Mauch, the judge said he was reducing a felony to a misdemeanor, even though it wasn't a wobbler offense. The Court of Appeal said the judge couldn't do that. And I would be guessing this is why California DOJ says skillz91745 is still a felon. The only options now are a pardon from the governor or to somehow vacate the conviction.

If it was a suspended PRISON sentence that was IMPOSED and EXECUTION SUSPENDED you are correct. One question is was it a suspended PRISON sentence or COUNTY JAIL sentence. Some people are so turned around during these events in their life that they do not know the difference, and sometimes they don't even care so long as they get probation. That is why details matter.

And sometimes a trial court will suspend IMPOSITION of the sentence, in other cases they will IMPOSE but suspend EXECUTION of the sentence. If the prison sentence was never imposed (suspended imposition), he is still eligible for reduction according to People v. Feyrer (2010) 48 Cal.4th 426. If it was imposed but execution was suspended (suspended execution), he is not.


People v. Feyrer (2010) 48 Cal.4th 426, the California Supreme Court held that the trial court has the discretion to reduce a wobbler to a misdemeanor despite the defendant's admission of a great bodily injury enhancement ( 12022.7, subd. (a)), that could attach to a later felony sentence, if imposed. The court initially suspended imposition of sentence and had placed appellant on probation. The trial court terminated probation, but would not reduce the matter to a misdemeanor. There is a major difference in placing appellant on probation without execution of sentence suspended (see People v. Howard (1997) 16 Cal.4th 1081; People v. Wood (1998) 62 Cal.App.4th 1262, 1265-1266 [cannot reduce a matter to a misdemeanor when sentence was executed and then suspended]), and imposition of sentence being suspended, where the court never sentenced appellant and had all of the sentencing options still open. (See People v. Glee (2000) 82 Cal.App.4th 99, 103; People v. Kunkel (1985) 176 Cal.App.3d 46, 55 ] [if the court declares the offense to be a misdemeanor, any enhancement applicable only to felonies, such as a 12022.7, is simply not imposed an ceases to have any significance].) When a defendant is convicted of a wobbler, and is granted probation without imposition of sentence, the offense is “deemed” a felony, unless subsequently reduced to a misdemeanor pursuant to section 17, subdivision (b).

He needs to go back and double check his documents. And in any case, an order granting him 17 reduction is more likely than not to be accurate, and certainly should be trusted more than the DOJ opinion of him based on what we know about their records. If he has such an order, his situation warrants further review and we shouldn't be quick to dismiss him. If his 17 order pre-dates People v Wood, then it becomes more suspect.

ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
05-19-2015, 10:10 PM
sorry if I repeat a question. How long does a misdemeanor record stay visible for background checks if it was not removed? Is there any expiration time for those records or they stay forever unless removed?

Depends on what type of background check is being done. Contrary to popular belief, criminal convictions don't "age out". They just don't disappear because they're old. California DOJ will maintain records of every conviction a person has ever had, even ones that have been dismissed under Penal Code section 1203.4. If you're ever getting a Live Scan, you're doing a records request from California DOJ or FBI which will show all court cases and arrests. They will report everything since birth.

However, a lot of background checks are done by third-party private commercial companies. These are actually governed by credit reporting laws, namely the Fair Credit Reporting Act (FCRA) (15 USC 1681 et seq) and the California Investigative Consumer Reporting Agencies Act (ICRAA) (Cal Civ Code 1786 et seq).

Under FCRA, commercial companies may not report arrests or other adverse information which are more than seven years old provided that the report is not for employment of an individual who will have an annual salary of $75,000 or more. Under FCRA, convictions older than seven years could not be reported, but this was eliminated by Congress in 1998.

Under ICRAA, in particular Civil Code section 1786.18, an investigative consumer reporting agency may not report the following:

(7) Records of arrest, indictment, information, misdemeanor complaint, or conviction of a crime that, from the date of disposition, release, or parole, antedate the report by more than seven years. These items of information shall no longer be reported if at any time it is learned that, in the case of a conviction, a full pardon has been granted or, in the case of an arrest, indictment, information, or misdemeanor complaint, a conviction did not result; except that records of arrest, indictment, information, or misdemeanor complaints may be reported pending pronouncement of judgment on the particular subject matter of those records.

So, that sounds good in theory if you have some old convictions. However, a lot of background check companies just ignore ICRAA. They believe it doesn't apply to them. And the remedies available to the individual plaintiff are woefully inadequate. In fact, there is a case on appeal right now before the 9th Circuit concerning ICRAA which could potentially render the whole law unconstitutional as void-for-vagueness.

Now, as has been noted in this thread, courts routinely purge old files. That does not mean the conviction no longer exist. They still exist in the courts' computers, on rap sheets and in background checks.

APV
05-19-2015, 10:21 PM
Depends on what type of background check is being done. Contrary to popular belief, criminal convictions don't "age out". They just don't disappear because they're old. California DOJ will maintain records of every conviction a person has ever had, even ones that have been dismissed under Penal Code section 1203.4. If you're ever getting a Live Scan, you're doing a records request from California DOJ or FBI which will show all court cases and arrests. They will report everything since birth.

However, a lot of background checks are done by third-party private commercial companies. These are actually governed by credit reporting laws, namely the Fair Credit Reporting Act (FCRA) (15 USC 1681 et seq) and the California Investigative Consumer Reporting Agencies Act (ICRAA) (Cal Civ Code 1786 et seq).

Under FCRA, commercial companies may not report arrests or other adverse information which are more than seven years old provided that the report is not for employment of an individual who will have an annual salary of $75,000 or more. Under FCRA, convictions older than seven years could not be reported, but this was eliminated by Congress in 1998.

Under ICRAA, in particular Civil Code section 1786.18, an investigative consumer reporting agency may not report the following:

(7) Records of arrest, indictment, information, misdemeanor complaint, or conviction of a crime that, from the date of disposition, release, or parole, antedate the report by more than seven years. These items of information shall no longer be reported if at any time it is learned that, in the case of a conviction, a full pardon has been granted or, in the case of an arrest, indictment, information, or misdemeanor complaint, a conviction did not result; except that records of arrest, indictment, information, or misdemeanor complaints may be reported pending pronouncement of judgment on the particular subject matter of those records.

So, that sounds good in theory if you have some old convictions. However, a lot of background check companies just ignore ICRAA. They believe it doesn't apply to them. And the remedies available to the individual plaintiff are woefully inadequate. In fact, there is a case on appeal right now before the 9th Circuit concerning ICRAA which could potentially render the whole law unconstitutional as void-for-vagueness.

Now, as has been noted in this thread, courts routinely purge old files. That does not mean the conviction no longer exist. They still exist in the courts' computers, on rap sheets and in background checks.

Thank you. It is really helpful. Can you elaborate on the following
"Under FCRA, commercial companies may not report arrests or other adverse information which are more than seven years old provided that the report is not for employment of an individual who will have an annual salary of $75,000 or more. "
Does it mean that seven years limitation does not apply if an annual salary is more than 75,000?

ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
05-19-2015, 10:41 PM
Under FCRA, criminal convictions can be reported forever. Under FCRA, non-criminal conviction events such as arrests which did not result in convictions, can only be reported for 7 years. However, there are three exceptions to this 7-year rule: "(1) a credit transaction involving, or which may reasonably be expected to involve, a principal amount of $150,000 or more; (2) the underwriting of life insurance involving, or which may reasonably be expected to involve, a face amount of $150,000 or more; or (3) the employment of any individual at an annual salary which equals, or which may reasonably be expected to equal $75,000, or more." If one of these exceptions apply, then an arrest can be reported, no matter how old. This is all found in 15 USC 1681c. However, other laws may apply. For example, California Labor Code section 432.7 prohibits employers from learning about or using as a factor in hiring any arrest that did not result in a conviction.

Most California misdemeanors should be eligible for dismissal under Penal Code section 1203.4 or 1203.4a. The difference between the two is whether you got probation or not. There is no time limit on when you can apply for it, so if you have an old California misdemeanor conviction, I would urge you to apply for 1203.4 or 1203.4a.

But all of this is really off-topic and not related to guns at all. If you wish to discuss it further, consult an employment attorney or PM me.

skillz91745
05-19-2015, 11:29 PM
At work at the moment I will look later in the AM and attempt to post. Thank u all

skillz91745
05-19-2015, 11:32 PM
Do u have email? Can u PM me ur email. I do not mind emailing it to u. U all have been more then helpful

Where I stand now is that I'm dealing with the doj to get it reduced to a misdomeanor.

skillz91745
05-20-2015, 2:44 AM
Oh and thank you Skyhawk for not writing me off! Like some!

skillz91745
05-20-2015, 2:48 AM
And it was pre 1998 (re people vs wood)

APV
05-20-2015, 11:43 AM
:iagree:

MontClaire,
posters on this thread provided useful links and helpful information especially those who speak out of practical experience on the law or law enforcement side or on the receive end of the legislature system. Many thanks to all who provided assistance with legal questions on this thread. Lawyers do not answer for free. Questions here are not instead of a lawyer but rather in a addition to a lawyer. I know cases when even $800/h lawyers had to be corrected. From my personal experience sure legal issues require a lawyer but lawyers can make a mistake or be negligent as any other profession. An extra check never hurts.

SkyHawk
05-20-2015, 2:57 PM
MontClaire,
posters on this thread provided useful links and helpful information especially those who speak out of practical experience on the law or law enforcement side or on the receive end of the legislature system. Many thanks to all who provided assistance with legal questions on this thread. Lawyers do not answer for free. Questions here are not instead of a lawyer but rather in a addition to a lawyer. I know cases when even $800/h lawyers had to be corrected. From my personal experience sure legal issues require a lawyer but lawyers can make a mistake or be negligent as any other profession. An extra check never hurts.

You are exactly right. No one here is advocating that the parties requesting help do anything illegal like go buy a gun or otherwise obtain a gun. There is little chance to get in trouble following the advice given here, since we are telling people how to bring their case to a resolution that leaves them with gun rights intact. And yes he will likely need a real lawyer to do that when all's said and done.

There is however plenty of opportunity to learn here, and I admit I have learned much from the Calguns members in this thread especially recent posts from ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ. His citations will help me give advice to others in the future, so this is a very productive exchange.

Skillz is caught up in what might be considered a JUDICIAL SNAFU and that deserves as much flushing out as possible, so he is armed with as much info he can be as he seeks legal counsel. Posters here have raised very relevant issues and nuances that explain why he has received so many different answers even from those who we assume should know. I'd say after having now further reviewed his case offline, if he is left with a denial from DOJ or is still a felon in their eyes, we have at least saved him $1000 in research that he will need to resolve this and would have otherwise been billed for.

SkyHawk
05-20-2015, 3:12 PM
OK so for those who know more about these issues than I do, help me ponder this scenario and the possible options and outcomes. This is no longer a hypothetical scenario, and I am sure it applies to more folks than this one guy:

Assume that a person was given 17(b) IN ERROR - before People v Wood in 1998. It is clear from the minutes of a hearing for probation termination (1203.3) that the court (in this case 1996) also intended to (and seemingly did) grant 17(b) and 1203.4 at the same time - a pretty standard procedure. However the defendant was originally sentenced to state prison, the sentence was imposed and the execution suspended.

He is now left with what could be argued is an improper 17(b) reduction, based on People v Wood.

Keeping in mind the original charge does seem to have been a TRUE WOBBLER [10851(a)], I do not think issues that were hashed out in People v. Mauch would apply.

Here are some questions:

1) Is the 17(b) order automatically invalid per People v Wood, or would a DA or other interested party have to first petition a court to invalidate the 17(b) ?

2) Because it is clear the court intended to reduce the charge to misdemeanor but did so in error, could the person who now finds himself caught up in this judicial safu, PETITION TO HAVE THE ORIGINAL SENTENCE VACATED, and request to be resentenced - even 25 years later?

y0manda
05-21-2015, 8:59 PM
Hate to Hijack thread but it is on topic...
I have a 245a(1) that showed up on my live scan. I remember this incident vaguely but I spent about 3 hours in jail before they released me for "insufficient evident". I never saw a judge or was even had a chance to talk to anyone about it, but it is still on my live scan as a TOC (type of crime) F but that is it. Is it possible to have this complexly removed from my record?

SkyHawk
05-21-2015, 9:43 PM
Hate to Hijack thread but it is on topic...
I have a 245a(1) that showed up on my live scan. I remember this incident vaguely but I spent about 3 hours in jail before they released me for "insufficient evident". I never saw a judge or was even had a chance to talk to anyone about it, but it is still on my live scan as a TOC (type of crime) F but that is it. Is it possible to have this complexly removed from my record?

Does the livescan show the disposition of the charge? If you never even saw a judge I would imagine it is just an arrest record.

Your best chance to clear a record of arrest is within 2 years of the incident. See PC 851.8. http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?file=833-851.90&group=00001-01000&section=pen

If you wait longer than 2 years it gets trickier. But PC 851.8(l) says "Any time restrictions on filing for relief under this section may be waived upon a showing of good cause by the petitioner and in the absence of prejudice."

So all is not lost. Best advice - get a lawyer :)

Read this for more info: http://www.shouselaw.com/destroy-arrest-records.html