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View Full Version : The right to be a blabbermouth


macthefinger
11-22-2013, 9:36 AM
How many people believe that their postings on this forum can and will be used against them in a court of law, if and when that infamous day in court ever arrives?

taperxz
11-22-2013, 10:15 AM
How many people believe that their postings on this forum can and will be used against them in a court of law, if and when that infamous day in court ever arrives?
While we are being advised about what to say and what not say during a 911 call, are we considering the legal effect of idle words posted here? What do you think is the likelihood that even a halfway proficient attorney would dig in here and have a virtual party with what is being casually tossed about by a great many members?
I say the likelihood is sky high. And I would suggest that some of you should rethink what you post here.
The right to remain silent (particularly about certain aspects of gun ownership) looks like an underexercised attribute around these parts.

I'll worry about that when CGN makes it understood that i am posting under penalty/perjury of law.

Not to mention, IF they can find out which family member i am and who has access to my pass word. All of this would have to be done after they get a search warrant for the CGN data base.

On top of that, they will need to prove my motives and intent of my 1A rights which are limited here on a privately owned forum.

-hanko
11-22-2013, 11:07 AM
How many people believe that their postings on this forum can and will be used against them in a court of law, if and when that infamous day in court ever arrives?
While we are being advised about what to say and what not say during a 911 call, are we considering the legal effect of idle words posted here? What do you think is the likelihood that even a halfway proficient attorney would dig in here and have a virtual party with what is being casually tossed about by a great many members?
I say the likelihood is sky high. And I would suggest that some of you should rethink what you post here.
The right to remain silent (particularly about certain aspects of gun ownership) looks like an underexercised attribute around these parts.
Why don't you cite A case where someone had a post used against them in a court of law.

I say, 'til proven otherwise, that the likelihood is zero. Otherwise, we would have heard at least a whisper of it happening.

I think the thread is FOS. :rolleyes::TFH::TFH:

Epaphroditus
11-22-2013, 11:27 AM
Well, if someone posts incriminating 'evidence' online then they are kind of stupid and likely have left plenty of other evidence scattered about.

Might want to cross correlate such thoughts with sales of tin foil ...

elSquid
11-22-2013, 11:29 AM
Why don't you cite A case where someone had a post used against them in a court of law.

I say, 'til proven otherwise, that the likelihood is zero. Otherwise, we would have heard at least a whisper of it happening.

I think the thread is FOS. :rolleyes::TFH::TFH:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=578935

Calguns posts included as justification for search warrant:

http://www.justice.gov/usao/cae/news/docs/2012/06-01-12McGowenOrder%20Affadavit.pdf

< shrug >

-- Michael

taperxz
11-22-2013, 12:26 PM
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=578935

Calguns posts included as justification for search warrant:

http://www.justice.gov/usao/cae/news/docs/2012/06-01-12McGowenOrder%20Affadavit.pdf

< shrug >

-- Michael

Thats a little different in the sense that it was used to conduct sales.

Its not wise to broadcast any illegal activity anywhere including here. Simply talking about stuff here and political view points is not going to get anyone in trouble IMHO.

However after reading the prior post you referenced i was thinking about that case too. CGN was just the classified used. Could have just as easily been craigslist.

elSquid
11-22-2013, 1:21 PM
Simply talking about stuff here and political view points is not going to get anyone in trouble IMHO.

Personally, I'm not particularly concerned with making posts on calguns, but the fact remains that any such posts can be used in criminal or civil court.

macthefinger explicitly mentioned that firearms-related posts can be problematic; that seems a reasonable statement to me.

For example, say a calgunner is involved in a HD shooting that is borderline or is politically sensitive. It's quite reasonable to expect that a prosecutor would spend time reviewing posts looking for incriminating statements/patterns. Similarly, in any resulting civil case I would expect similar actions. "Kill em all"-style statements, statements that imply recklessness, etc probably won't play very well in court. I've personally read posts on here that make me wonder about the mindset of some people...

Now I'm not all that familiar with all the nuances of criminal and civil discovery[1], but the reality is that any post made here is public...and quite frankly anything, anyone posts anywhere should be posted with the consideration that it will be part of their permanent public record.

< shrug >

-- Michael

[1] Can a person be required to disclose online accounts in civil cases? Criminal cases? Can ISP access logs/traffic be subpeona'd? Don't know.

frankm
11-22-2013, 1:28 PM
I don't care. Half the stuff I say is lies anyway.

Off the Roster
11-22-2013, 1:29 PM
if one's posts degrade one's character in the eyes of laymen concern is warranted imo. there are many posts on CG that makes me question whether or not i would trust that user with a firearm (let alone a ccw if applicable).

Librarian
11-22-2013, 1:39 PM
Its not wise to broadcast any illegal activity anywhere including here.

Quit true, especially since we know for certain that DOJ and other agencies read the forums.

We strongly discourage posts that resolve to 'I just committed (or think I committed, or suggest someone should commit) a crime ...'.

'Thoughtcrime', OTOH, is not under any such caution.

Spyguy
11-22-2013, 1:42 PM
I think what the OP is alluding to are posts similar to the following (purely fictional quote, made-up to illustrate the OP's point):

"If someone's on my property, I'll shoot first & ask questions later. And I'll drag the body in the front door."

chainsaw
11-22-2013, 1:43 PM
My favorite posts of this type are the ones that say "F*** the laws of the communist state of Mexifornia, I'll do XXX, because I want to do it". Typically said about configuring rifles as AWs, open or concealed carry, transferring them without an FFL. These posts happen every few hours.

As long as the author doesn't get arrested and tried, nothing will happen. If he does, it is usually easy to trace back an anonymous username to a person (even without a subpoena for Kestryll's database), given the information that most people divulge here. Connecting the post to the human is as easy as asking them, when they are being questioned under oath: "Did you or did you now write this?" (at which point you have the choice between perjuring yourself or admitting it).

Useful for proving intent in those crimes that require it. Useful to prove that the person was aware of the laws, and deliberately decided to break them. Powerful as input into a sentencing phase.

How often has information such as this been used? We only know of a few cases. But remember, while criminal court documents are in theory public (and can be inspected at the court house), they are rarely online and searchable. And even if they were, most criminal cases have remarkably little information in the written record; in the few cases I've had the displeasure to be a spectator, the paperwork just contains a few pages, with a summary of the charges (without details), the plea agreement, and the sentence. Details about the evidence are typically not needed. This is particularly true if a plea agreement is reached.

Trenchfoot
11-22-2013, 2:55 PM
It's ok as long as you say "no homo" afterwards.

MaHoTex
11-22-2013, 3:48 PM
Meh... Half of what I post is BS, the other half may or may not be lies. :shrug:

Anon forums on the internet tend to do funny things to people. Internet muscles, big man talk, bravado etc. I see a lot of the garbage that gets posted like: "From my cold dead hands", "F' the police" etc. Reality is most are nothing like their online persona they portray. Instead, it is the person they wish they were. At least, that is my opinion.

POLICESTATE
11-22-2013, 3:53 PM
How many people believe that their postings on this forum can and will be used against them in a court of law, if and when that infamous day in court ever arrives?
While we are being advised about what to say and what not say during a 911 call, are we considering the legal effect of idle words posted here? What do you think is the likelihood that even a halfway proficient attorney would dig in here and have a virtual party with what is being casually tossed about by a great many members?
I say the likelihood is sky high. And I would suggest that some of you should rethink what you post here.
The right to remain silent (particularly about certain aspects of gun ownership) looks like an underexercised attribute around these parts.


There is no real privacy anymore. Besides nobody on here posts seriously anyway, we're all just simply bull****in'

jeremiah12
11-22-2013, 6:10 PM
It did happen to one blabbermouth who used to post often in the OT. He was arrested for an illegal activity and blabbed all over the OT about it and how he was going to get off of the charge and the defense he was going to use. He was told by many to STFU. He did not. He was also told to plead out. He did not. He was surprised when he got to court to learn the prosecuting attorney had a transcript of his conversation from the OT. A member of the DAs office of that county is a well known member of Calguns.

It can happen.

chainsaw
11-22-2013, 7:26 PM
There is no real privacy anymore.

You are expecting privacy, when you are writing something in a public place? On a medium (the internet) where everything is archived?

That's funny.

taperxz
11-22-2013, 7:44 PM
And that's the person the jury is going to see.

What person? What jury? You are talking about people committing crimes first, then talking about it here. Which is extremely uncommon and whats the difference whether they say something here, on facebook or hold a big sign in front of them telling what they did?

ramathorn
11-22-2013, 8:49 PM
Frankly i agree but about other posts. Its funny to read a post about someone buying lowers or ammo with cash so its off the books/underground but they mention it here. If you're worried about the govt knowing about your purchases from your cc bill, you do know that they can monitor your every move and post on the internet also right? The internet is not anonymous.

taperxz
11-22-2013, 8:54 PM
Frankly i agree but about other posts. Its funny to read a post about someone buying lowers or ammo with cash so its off the books/underground but they mention it here. If you're worried about the govt knowing about your purchases from your cc bill, you do know that they can monitor your every move and post on the internet also right? The internet is not anonymous.

Whats wrong with buying lowers and ammo with cash? Thats not underground.

Especially the ammo part. There is no such thing as underground ammo. (not to imply that stolen ammo is not illegal)

frankm
11-22-2013, 10:37 PM
It did happen to one blabbermouth who used to post often in the OT. He was arrested for an illegal activity and blabbed all over the OT about it and how he was going to get off of the charge and the defense he was going to use. He was told by many to STFU. He did not. He was also told to plead out. He did not. He was surprised when he got to court to learn the prosecuting attorney had a transcript of his conversation from the OT. A member of the DAs office of that county is a well known member of Calguns.

It can happen.

Whoops! Dang. Guess you either better shut up around here or grow spider webs on your elbow.

BomberJosh
11-23-2013, 4:01 AM
I know its not 2nd Amendment but it is a lawsuit against a forum I am a member of and against a great many of the other members all being sued individually for their comments in the forum...

Google
John Giduck's lawsuit against SOCNET.

It has cost a lot of people a lot of money to defend themselves against a frivolous lawsuit all because the guy was a scam artist and faking his military career and the members called him out on it and cost him jobs that he lied to get.

Ford8N
11-23-2013, 7:02 AM
It did happen to one blabbermouth who used to post often in the OT. He was arrested for an illegal activity and blabbed all over the OT about it and how he was going to get off of the charge and the defense he was going to use. He was told by many to STFU. He did not. He was also told to plead out. He did not. He was surprised when he got to court to learn the prosecuting attorney had a transcript of his conversation from the OT. A member of the DAs office of that county is a well known member of Calguns.

It can happen.


Link?

Johnny Lightning
11-23-2013, 7:38 AM
All of my posts are for "Entertainment Purposes Only". Like when I say that after January 1st all long arm sales will be registered. But of the millions of long arms out there how is anybody going to know if you sold your Sears shotgun to your neighbor you've know for 40 years and you "transfer" it from your closet to his?. How is anybody going to know if it was in his closet for 40 years or yours?. I'm not encouraging illegal behavior, or even saying that is what I would do. I just pose this simple question which I have posed before and received a matronly scolding in response. Entertainment Purposes Only. Thanks for letting me share.

marcusrn
11-23-2013, 11:45 PM
Point taken!

I have to constantly ask myself "am I running my mouth" when on this site.

Yes I'm guilty. It would be much more prudent to be the "Greyman".

nastyhabts26
11-24-2013, 12:08 AM
Another attempt at censorship and an attack on free speech?

SonofWWIIDI
11-24-2013, 12:28 AM
I don't think they can use posts related to my legally owned guns (which are already registered with the state), and good luck trying to use my stupid jokes, one-liners and slightly off color comments against me. Unless of course it's in the court if public opinion. And then you probably just a lot of :rolleyes:


Or, are they gonna put me on trial for my good natured jabs at politicians and other public figures?

MotoriousRacing
11-24-2013, 12:44 AM
None if that actually happened, it was just ePeen....

AA9MM
11-24-2013, 2:38 AM
What you tweet on twitter can be considered premeditation in court... so if you write something illegal on here id imagine the same consequences.

OleCuss
11-24-2013, 7:17 AM
Some good responses here. Ultimately a useful thread.

Yes, what you say on this forum is not the same as testifying under oath, but it can be used to impeach you and to show intent - and other stuff.

And understand, if they can introduce what you have done on this forum in order to attempt to impeach your testimony, then if you have been saying unpleasant things toward others it can also make a jury hate you and want to make you pay a penalty even if the case against you wasn't really all that strong.

So many lines of questioning could be opened up.

And sure you are anonymous on this forum. Doesn't really matter. In the discovery phase of your trial they may very well make you go on the record as to what fora you belong to and what your user name is, etc.

Particularly in this state, exercising your fundamental and constitutionally protected right to keep and bear arms can make you a target of the government which should be protecting your rights. Part of your defense is to be thoughtful and polite on any forum you may frequent.

Avoid doing anything you think might be illegal (or might even look like it is illegal) and don't assist those who do try to break the law.

Some Guy
11-24-2013, 6:44 PM
It did happen to one blabbermouth who used to post often in the OT. He was arrested for an illegal activity and blabbed all over the OT about it and how he was going to get off of the charge and the defense he was going to use. He was told by many to STFU. He did not. He was also told to plead out. He did not. He was surprised when he got to court to learn the prosecuting attorney had a transcript of his conversation from the OT. A member of the DAs office of that county is a well known member of Calguns.

It can happen.

Link?

+ 1

arsilva32
11-24-2013, 9:58 PM
Some good responses here. Ultimately a useful thread.

Yes, what you say on this forum is not the same as testifying under oath, but it can be used to impeach you and to show intent - and other stuff.

And understand, if they can introduce what you have done on this forum in order to attempt to impeach your testimony, then if you have been saying unpleasant things toward others it can also make a jury hate you and want to make you pay a penalty even if the case against you wasn't really all that strong.

So many lines of questioning could be opened up.

And sure you are anonymous on this forum. Doesn't really matter. In the discovery phase of your trial they may very well make you go on the record as to what fora you belong to and what your user name is, etc.

Particularly in this state, exercising your fundamental and constitutionally protected right to keep and bear arms can make you a target of the government which should be protecting your rights. Part of your defense is to be thoughtful and polite on any forum you may frequent.

Avoid doing anything you think might be illegal (or might even look like it is illegal) and don't assist those who do try to break the law.

loool are you trying to scare people into being nice to everyone:D

bohoki
11-24-2013, 10:52 PM
well im just posting through a neighbors open wi fi boy i hope he never gets in any trouble

jwkincal
11-25-2013, 9:05 AM
I'd be far less concerned about the admissibility of statements on a forum as actual evidence at trial than I would of it forming reasonable suspicion for additional investigative attention.

Just don't do illegal things. And if you do, don't talk about it... anywhere or to anyone.

If you don't understand that part, well... I expect that the actions of the State Penal apparatus could be considered roughly equivalent to evolutionary pressure.

Shorthair
11-25-2013, 9:19 AM
I would normally comment in this thread. But now I'm too paranoid. Thanks...

Mr. Beretta
11-25-2013, 10:08 AM
It's ok as long as you say "no homo" afterwards.



:D:D:D:D:D:D

J.D.Allen
11-25-2013, 10:41 AM
I have had my posts here used against me in court. Not criminal court though, it was during my divorce. My ex's attorney used them to make me look like "one of those crazy gun obsessed militia extreme right wingers" that could snap and kill a hundred people at any moment. I'm not really sure if it swayed the judge or not...

seo
11-25-2013, 11:07 AM
I am betting the NSA has a copy of every single post everyone here has every made.

meyerlemony
11-25-2013, 4:27 PM
I used to use this type of evidence all the time, not in criminal cases, but in civil ones.

For instance...allegedly disabled plaintiff posts all over the skydiving and water skiing forums what a blast he is having with his worker's comp paycheck. (I totally made that up, but I've found similar things...with personal injury...breach of contract...intellectual property infringement.)

I totally feel that anything written down can be found and used against you.