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Hillbillly
02-04-2008, 7:04 PM
We all had to deal with Cheaper then Dirt and other big vendors that dont want to ship to CA.

However, I am now interested in 510 dtc shooting and reloading and now see that many small vendors and gunbroker sellers will not ship 50 BMG components to Cali.

I decided to put together an email to them and then realized that we should create a very good standard letter for all of us to use when we want to dismiss the FUD and convince sellers to ship to CA.

So I am asking for your help to keep modifying my draft below into a convincing document.

Thanks


Hello

I would like to convince you to ship 50 BMG components to California and not to buy into the FUD “fear, uncertainty, and doubt” that has been spread intentionally and un-intentionally by our Government and fellow shooters which continues to erode away at our rights.

Actually it is bad enough that we slowly loose our constitutional rights through legislative actions - “Public Safety Laws”.
Yet this is nothing compared to how we are now loosing OUR rights by having Americans believe in untruths and restrict the rights of other Americans even though no such laws have been enacted. Freedom does come with a price and that price is taking the time to question issues like this one and not take the easy path and believe in the “FUD”.

The FACTS as supported by links to the CA DOJ Firearms website.
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/50bmg.php
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/infobuls/50calinfobul.pdf

It is true there is a 50cal BMG Rifle Ban in California.
However, many of us still own these legally through registrations with the Ca. DOJ and others now own .50 DTC EUROP Rifles which can not chamber a 50 BMG round because the chamber and the round has slightly different case dimensions.
The case is 0.100 inches shorter and uses a steeper shoulder than standard .50 BMG ammunition. .50 DTC cases can be made by shortening and then fire-forming .50 BMG cases.

This is a Rifle ban only, has nothing to do with other components of the .50 BMG round.
Our legislature has taken the same approach as the French and banned any rifle that can chamber a .50BMG round.

Your fellow shooters in California still need these basic components to continue exercising our 2nd amendment rights and enjoy our sport.

Please support us and consider changing your shipping policy.


Thank you for your time,

porkchop
02-04-2008, 7:18 PM
We all had to deal with Cheaper then Dirt and other big vendors that dont want to ship to CA.

However, I am now interested in 510 dtc shooting and reloading and now see that many small vendors and gunbroker sellers will not ship 50 BMG components to Cali.

I decided to put together an email to them and then realized that we should create a very good standard letter for all of us to use when we want to dismiss the FUD and convince sellers to ship to CA.

So I am asking for your help to keep modifying my draft below into a convincing document.

Thanks


Hello

I would like to convince you to ship 50 BMG components to California and not to buy into the FUD “fear, uncertainty, and doubt” that has been spread intentionally and un-intentionally by our Government and fellow shooters which continues to erode away at our rights.

Actually it is bad enough that we slowly loose our constitutional rights through legislative actions - “Public Safety Laws”.
Yet this is nothing compared to how we are now loosing OUR rights by having Americans believe in untruths and restrict the rights of other Americans even though no such laws have been enacted. Freedom does come with a price and that price is taking the time to question issues like this one and not take the easy path and believe in the “FUD”.

The FACTS as supported by links to the CA DOJ Firearms website.
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/50bmg.php
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/infobuls/50calinfobul.pdf

It is true there is a 50cal BMG Rifle Ban in California.
However, many of us still own these legally through registrations with the Ca. DOJ and others now own .50 DTC EUROP Rifles which can not chamber a 50 BMG round because the chamber and the round has slightly different case dimensions.
The case is 0.100 inches shorter and uses a steeper shoulder than standard .50 BMG ammunition. .50 DTC cases can be made by shortening and then fire-forming .50 BMG cases.

This is a Rifle ban only, has nothing to do with other components of the .50 BMG round.
Our legislature has taken the same approach as the French and banned any rifle that can chamber a .50BMG round.

Your fellow shooters in California still need these basic components to continue exercising our 2nd amendment rights and enjoy our sport.

Please support us and consider changing your shipping policy.


Thank you for your time,

other than that small typo, this seems like an adequate and convincing letter.

CSACANNONEER
02-04-2008, 7:28 PM
First off, I have to say that as long as this is America, they should be able to run their business however they want to. That includes choosing who they will and will not do business with. You also have the right not to do business with them. As for getting 50 components in Ca, I've never had a problem. Join the FCSA. As a member of a recognized international organization, your letter should carry a bit more weight. Also, if you become a member, you'll be more informed on what supplier has what in stock. Right now NO ONE has #35 primers for sale and brass is scarce. Last summer, everyone was out of Amaxes. Of course, if there's anything that is in stock and a supplier won't ship to Ca., I can always find a FCSA member to help me get it into the state (assuming that it is legal here).

RRangel
02-04-2008, 7:47 PM
I don't think a letter is going to change anything. They have a right not to do business in this state. We have a right not to patronize them, or even recommend them. Give your business to those who appreciate it.

Hillbillly
02-04-2008, 8:11 PM
WOW, not sure where to start here.
Maybe I did not get my point across correctly.
I was not challenging their rights on how they want to do business.
My goal is to get them to understand the FACTS and make a decision.

First off, I have to say that as long as this is America, they should be able to run their business however they want to.


Yes this is America and I never said, "THEY MUST SHIP to CA."
My belief is they should not base their shipping policies on FUD.
If, they came to the decision of not to shipping to California because they flipped a coin then that is fine with me.
If they came to the decision because they are worried because their friend said something and they chose to believe them with our questioning it, or they read it somewhere but cant remember where, then I personally have a problem with that, especially in this day and age of technology and ease of access to the DOJ documents.
I see that you always push organized membership in FCSA so I know you can appreciate the advantages of solidarity within that organization.

So imagine how nice it would be if everyone that participated in OUR shooting industry would come together and support each other!


Join the FCSA. As a member of a recognized international organization, your letter should carry a bit more weight.
I can always find a FCSA member to help me get it into the state (assuming that it is legal here).

How do you know I haven't joined the FSCA?
And why should this carry more weight?
I hope as I look around more in FSCA that I see them actively challenging the FUD and helping all of us get what we need from vendors without needing to do some complicated networking that only adds more unnecessary dollars to our sport.
I do not have an issue spending the money or I would not of picked firing 50's but don’t forget the common practice of the Anti's is to do just that, add un needed dollars to the sport. Example firing pin id's



Right now NO ONE has #35 primers for sale and brass is scarce.

Well, if you count the people who dont ship to CA you may be right.
Just found some on-line but they dont ship to Cali.

Hillbillly
02-04-2008, 8:19 PM
I don't think a letter is going to change anything. They have a right not to do business in this state. We have a right not to patronize them, or even recommend them. Give your business to those who appreciate it.

Trust me this is my SOP with large vendors.
However just as one person can make a difference so can one e-mail.
If each of us can show the truth to one sales person in the industry then some change can happen.

Look at this whole OLL thing.

If the original guys that started OLL imports could not convince them to send it in or a ffl here to receive then no one would have OLL's

My point is we should not just sit here and say well if they dont ship to CA the screw them, I just will not buy from them.

I understand it is hopeless to move some of the large vendors but we should be working together to help the smaller ones understand CA laws.

hoffmang
02-04-2008, 8:38 PM
First off, I have to say that as long as this is America, they should be able to run their business however they want to.

I'm glad to know that it's your opinion that sellers of firearms, ammunition, and components should be free to not support the right to purchase firearms, ammunition, and components. You're of course right in the same way that Nazis should have the right to parade and spout hate speech. However, I'm pretty critical of Nazis and I'm pretty critical of hypocritical firearms businesses too.

Their attitude brought us:
GCA '68
"sporting purposes"
The California Handgun Roster
etc., etc...

-Gene

wilit
02-04-2008, 8:39 PM
I don't think a letter is going to change anything.

+1. California is such a spiderweb of confusing and vague laws, even our own DA's can't make sense of them (see Hunt vs. Brown).

Look at it from their point of view. They're going to make maybe $100 profit on selling you something .50 BMG related (let's just say ammo). Is that $100 worth it from a business standpoint to risk having to hire a lawyer at $150/hr to prove their innocence if the CA DOJ decides to file charges? Unless your letter has CA DOJ letterhead on it, it's not going to carry much weight. It's the sad state of affairs for the PRK, but it is what it is.

Good letter though. It's worth a shot.

Fjold
02-04-2008, 9:15 PM
My input, simplify it if possible. The shorter and to the point that your letter is, the better the chance that you will get people to read it.

Hello,

I would like to convince you to ship 50 BMG components to California and not to buy into the misinformation that has been spread intentionally and unintentionally by our government and fellow shooters which continues to erode away at our rights.

It is bad enough that we slowly lose our constitutional rights through legislative action. Yet this is nothing compared to how we are now losing OUR rights because other Americans believe the untruths about laws in California even though no such laws have been enacted.

The FACTS as supported by links to the California Department of Justice (DOJ) Firearms website are:
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/50bmg.php
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/infobuls/50calinfobul.pdf

It is true there is a 50cal BMG rifle ban in California but that is the extent of the ban. It does not include any ban on rifle parts, reloading components or 50 BMG ammuntion. Many of us here in California still own these rifles legally through registration with the California DOJ while other of us own .50 DTC EUROP rifles which can not chamber a 50 BMG round but the ammunition for them is made from 50 BMG components by shortening and then fire-forming .50 BMG cases.

The restriction on the 50 BMG in California is a new rifle ban only, it has nothing to do with the components of or any loaded .50 BMG ammunition.

Your fellow shooters in California still need these basic components to continue exercising our 2nd amendment rights and enjoying our sport.

Please support us and consider changing your shipping policy.


Thank you for your time,

Riodog
02-04-2008, 9:49 PM
Believe me when I tell you that 99% of the time your letter will fall on deaf ears. There are very few people in business that will stand on the principal and fall on the sword. Small businesses are even worse as most can't survive litigation that could cost untold dollars. The bottom line is the bottom line. There is just not that much profit coming out of TPRK to justify such behavior when they have not only their livelihood but that of their employees to contend with also.

A better solution for you would be to have whatever product you wanted shipped to a friend in another state and have them reship it to you. Not illegal (depending upon the product) and you'd save yourself the frustration.
Rio

eaglemike
02-04-2008, 10:30 PM
Hey, it's worth a try. You're not asking for anything illegal, right? Maybe they will say yes, maybe no. Maybe you'll reach someone that wants to support you and other shooters that are law abiding and need those components. Good luck!

all the best,

Mike

KenpoProfessor
02-05-2008, 3:04 AM
I'm glad to know that it's your opinion that sellers of firearms, ammunition, and components should be free to not support the right to purchase firearms, ammunition, and components. You're of course right in the same way that Nazis should have the right to parade and spout hate speech. However, I'm pretty critical of Nazis and I'm pretty critical of hypocritical firearms businesses too.

Their attitude brought us:
GCA '68
"sporting purposes"
The California Handgun Roster
etc., etc...

-Gene


So a free market and liberty have nothing to do with this then? These people choose not to live in CA, they also choose not to do business wth those in CA. Why should they risk their livelihood servicing citizens in a quarantined zone. They don't know the laws, don't care to know the laws, and that very well may keep them from earning a better living,BUT IT'S THEIR RIGHT TO DO SO. Comparing these guys to Nazi supporters is you using Godwins law to support a point, and it's not even close.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

Hillbillly
02-05-2008, 8:29 AM
Fjold

Thank you for you time and effort on this.
Its too bad others do not feel that some hard won small battles go a long way in winning the overall war.




My input, simplify it if possible. The shorter and to the point that your letter is, the better the chance that you will get people to read it.

Hello,

I would like to convince you to ship 50 BMG components to California and not to buy into the misinformation that has been spread intentionally and unintentionally by our government and fellow shooters which continues to erode away at our rights.

It is bad enough that we slowly lose our constitutional rights through legislative action. Yet this is nothing compared to how we are now losing OUR rights because other Americans believe the untruths about laws in California even though no such laws have been enacted.

The FACTS as supported by links to the [COLOR="red"]California Department of Justice (DOJ) Firearms website are:
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/50bmg.php
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/infobuls/50calinfobul.pdf

It is true there is a 50cal BMG rifle ban in California but that is the extent of the ban. It does not include any ban on rifle parts, reloading components or 50 BMG ammuntion. Many of us here in California still own these rifles legally through registration with the California DOJ while other of us own .50 DTC EUROP rifles which can not chamber a 50 BMG round but the ammunition for them is made from 50 BMG components by shortening and then fire-forming .50 BMG cases.

The restriction on the 50 BMG in California is a new rifle ban only, it has nothing to do with the components of or any loaded .50 BMG ammunition.

Your fellow shooters in California still need these basic components to continue exercising our 2nd amendment rights and enjoying our sport.

Please support us and consider changing your shipping policy.


Thank you for your time,

Fjold
02-05-2008, 1:14 PM
Hillbilly,

IMHO It's always OK to ask someone to change their policies if you frame it in the form of a request and not try to force anyone to do anything.

Unlike some on these boards I believe that if you talk to people in a reasonaby polite manner that some people will listen. It never hurts to ask.

Last year AWA Inc's stated policy was that they would not sell the Mateba pistol in California at all. I contacted them and with the help of Wes at TenPercent Firearms we got them to change their policy and now they will ship guns to any FFL in California that requests them.

Ironchef
02-05-2008, 1:24 PM
Perhaps adding language to better accommodate the seller's fears (whatever they may be..like DOJ/ATF breathing down their neck, etc). In as tactful a manner possible, acknowledge their right to refuse service to anyone, maybe support it, but then in an even more tactful manner, plead to at least have them reconsider on a case by case basis.

If something like that gets into the right hands, and you have a reasonable manager/administrator who can decide to ship to CA when he normally wouldn't...your language and attitude..and obviously supportive laws, are paramount.

M. D. Van Norman
02-05-2008, 3:12 PM
Even gun owners in California can’t agree on what’s legal to ship into this state.

hoffmang
02-05-2008, 9:44 PM
So a free market and liberty have nothing to do with this then? These people choose not to live in CA, they also choose not to do business wth those in CA. Why should they risk their livelihood servicing citizens in a quarantined zone. They don't know the laws, don't care to know the laws, and that very well may keep them from earning a better living,BUT IT'S THEIR RIGHT TO DO SO. Comparing these guys to Nazi supporters is you using Godwins law to support a point, and it's not even close.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

It's also their right to say abhorent things and I'll defend their right but counter it with speech of my own. I didn't invoke Godwin's law - no Hitler comparison was forthcoming. I was talking about Nazis here in America.

That one has the right to do something doesn't mean that its something they should do.

Kenpo - how do you rationalize that people who make their living selling constitutionally protected items should not lift a finger to help those being oppressed? Should northerners not have sold firearms to blacks in the south in the 1960's?

-Gene

Hillbillly
02-07-2008, 8:46 PM
Hey FJOLD

Our letter has had some success.

So far 2 out of 3 have changed their policy and the one that still did not want to ship here invited me to the Knob Creek MG shoot. COOL...

Here are the responses.

Thanks for the info...

I did remove the shipping ban on my auctions(that dont have a bid on them) I couldnt find the info you sent so thanks...

Yes I agree whole heartily. The line where I won't sell to CA is for AP and other types of ammo. I just accidently left that in the ball auction. If yo would like .50 or .30 balltips, just LMK. Thank You,.......Randall

Hillbillly, i personally have some friends in calf. they live in the most northern part of the state.. they have been shooting a very long time... they keep moving north to avoid all the guns laws... they tell me it is so complicated , that you can't even get a straight answer from the GOV. i have the all current book from the ATF... I don't have enough time to read it all.. it is mind boggling.. different laws for some counties, some different laws for some cities.....i haven't got a straight answer from anybody...i am to believe nobody knows..... this is my problem, if they are so many gun owners in your state , why has your state been electing for the last 40 years the same antigun people..... most of the U.S. are not on the same page as your state and others.... i feel sorry for people in your state , I WOULD MOVE... There are other great places to live in this great country of ours.. your gun laws wouldn't fly in my state, and all of us are not barefoot, and toothless........i know other suppliers that won't sell their either, it isn't worth the chance of screwing up... sorry to be rude, this is just how i feel... until i would see a change or hear for sure , it isn't worth a few $, to do this..... i would want to welcome you to visit my state, there are plenty of jobs here. good paying ,jobs, no mater what you do... i personally have a neighbor came here to visit his new in laws, and ending up moving , here 6 months later.... with the profit he made off of his house he owned in calf. he ended up with 150 acres of land built a new house, twice the size, of his calf. house, and has said it was the best thing he ever done, by the way he is debt free....enough of my rattling on ...... sorry i can't help you... thanks for question.

We can not win them all but the more we convince the better.




Hillbilly,

IMHO It's always OK to ask someone to change their policies if you frame it in the form of a request and not try to force anyone to do anything.

Unlike some on these boards I believe that if you talk to people in a reasonaby polite manner that some people will listen. It never hurts to ask.

Last year AWA Inc's stated policy was that they would not sell the Mateba pistol in California at all. I contacted them and with the help of Wes at TenPercent Firearms we got them to change their policy and now they will ship guns to any FFL in California that requests them.