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liketoshoot
02-02-2008, 6:04 PM
With all the talk about gun control, do you think we should create a “well regulated militia”?
In this way we could gather and have training in all types of firearms, not worry about having them confiscated and destroyed.
Your thoughts are needed on this as we need to find a way to show our Government we want to uphold our 2nd amendment rights and not break any of our Country's laws.


"The right of the people to keep and bear...arms shall not be infringed. A well regulated militia, composed of the people, trained to arms, is the best and most natural defense of a free country..." -James Madison, I Annals of Congress 434 (June 8, 1789).


:patriot: .................................................. .................................. :79:

hawk1
02-02-2008, 6:07 PM
That's when they'll say that "well regulated" means they can tell you what guns you can use or own. Yes to muzzleloaders, no to all the good stuff...

Harrison_Bergeron
02-02-2008, 6:13 PM
We already have a "well regulated militia" as I was taught in high school, they were sent to Iraq and to guard the border. We could make the argument that since the National Guard seems to be fully under the control of the pres they no longer fit the bill of a militia, but then we are just opening a whole new "what does the second amendment mean?" debate.

Quick Q: How come the 1st Amendment allows for burning the American flag and forcing atheism, but the second's meaning is somehow debatable?

tombinghamthegreat
02-02-2008, 6:15 PM
Why not just start a large shooting group? Less LE attention and if a ban did come you can have a band of brothers to stand for freedom. Also all males between 18-45 are already part of a militia.

AJAX22
02-02-2008, 6:19 PM
You became a member of the militia when you turned 18.

SemiAutoSam
02-02-2008, 6:41 PM
No ya better not ya might piss off your masters.

Harrison_Bergeron
02-02-2008, 6:42 PM
You guys understand that their is supposed to be a difference between a militia and the federaly run military, right? I believe that's is what your 18-45 comments are inferring.

SemiAutoSam
02-02-2008, 6:45 PM
I think most people realise that the Militia is not the military nor is it the National Guard as it wasn't created at the time the 2nd Amendment was written.

You guys understand that their is supposed to be a difference between a militia and the federally run military, right? I believe that's is what your 18-45 comments are inferring.

Solidmch
02-02-2008, 6:52 PM
They will just call us kookie gun nuts like they do with the malitias back east. The federal goverment and State DOJ woud try to "regulate" us with trumped up conspirisy and weapons charges... But Im in:D

dixieD
02-02-2008, 6:57 PM
You became a member of the militia when you turned 18. I just hope that I am no longer a member when I turn 45.;) Too much whiskey I meant I hope that I am STILL a member when I turn 45.

Harrison_Bergeron
02-02-2008, 7:00 PM
I think most people realise that the Militia is not the military nor is it the National Guard as it wasn't created at the time the 2nd Amendment was written.

Wikipedia, United States National Guard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_National_Guard)

The Militia Act of 1903 organized the various state militias into the present National Guard system.

Harrison_Bergeron
02-02-2008, 7:06 PM
Problem is, you have to have members who are willing to fight for something other than the last doughnut.
Not enough MEN of substince to form a troop, let alone a milita.

I think that once the camel's back starts getting heavier that will change, could be decades out though. Would also take the right leadership to be successful.

tombinghamthegreat
02-02-2008, 7:08 PM
I am down to join a militia. As long as it is not too radical i am fine with it.

SemiAutoSam
02-02-2008, 7:11 PM
So Prior to 1903 the national Guard didn't exist.

Hence my point that at the time of the writing of the 2nd Amendment the militia was not considered the National Guard.

I would expect there is a dispute about the National Guard being the militias.

This is of course after the fraudulent 14th Amendment was enacted. This actually does not make sense as before the time of the 14th Amendment enactment there were natural State Citizens and there was no such thing as a United States citizen yet. So why did they require applicants to the newly formed National Guard be "United States citizens" when Prior to the 14th Amendment there were only State Citizens and not United States (Federal) citizens.

Title 10 of the US Code states:

(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.
(b) The classes of the militia are—

(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.[1]



Wikipedia, United States National Guard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_National_Guard)

aplinker
02-02-2008, 7:11 PM
Their statements weren't inferring, you're inferring. Their statements are implying. :D

You guys understand that their is supposed to be a difference between a militia and the federaly run military, right? I believe that's is what your 18-45 comments are inferring.



I do like cookies. Can our militia have cookies?

http://www.girlscouts.org/

This might be more most folks speed.

Librarian
02-02-2008, 7:22 PM
Do the names "Michigan Militia" and "Militia of Montana" ring any bells?

"militia" just provides the antis another verbal club to use on otherwise sensible people. Distortion is really easy for those who are already so inclined.

Freedom of association is a valuable right; like-minded individuals form groups based on common interests all the time. Calling such a group a 'militia' would include a lot of inappropriate baggage. In my opinion, whatever that's worth, that would be a bad idea.

Ironchef
02-02-2008, 7:23 PM
Speaking of national guard, militia, armies, etc... I've heard that the national army is actually against the constitution and that all armies are to be state armies only..and then upon authorization given the president from congress, the president can preside over the state armies/militia/nat guard, etc as their commander in chief? Any US History buffs here recognize this as having any truth? If so, when, how, and why did our country start a national/federal army?

otalps
02-02-2008, 7:36 PM
The state governments have no right under the Constitution to have an army which is why they had militias. I don't think there is any truth to a national army being against the constitution. Article II makes the president the Commander in Chief of the Army Navy and the various state militias.

Article 1 To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;

To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years;

To provide and maintain a navy;

To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces;

To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

Is where I think this comes from, the whole no longer than 2 years thing for the monies raised by congress to go towards a standing army.

Ech0Sierra
02-02-2008, 7:37 PM
Well regulated Militia? Or Domestic Terrorist organization?! I don't want to meet anyone in the showers at Gitmo, so I'll pass.

KenpoProfessor
02-02-2008, 7:39 PM
Check the Penal Code, there are codes for practicing military tactics. Can't find it right now but I've posted it before. They've made it illegal to engage in militia training.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

Greg-Dawg
02-02-2008, 7:45 PM
I'll join a militia when I have to yell this chant:

WOLVERINES!!!










Seriously, if our country was invaded by foreign enemies...I will not hesitate to defend my country to stop the foreign invaders. Gather my local Calgunners and win the battle of protecting the sheep and destroying the wolves. I think I'm turning into a mall ninja.

ptoguy2002
02-02-2008, 8:07 PM
Check the Penal Code, there are codes for practicing military tactics. Can't find it right now but I've posted it before. They've made it illegal to engage in militia training.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

Its not training, its competition. Just need to keep score.

liketoshoot
02-02-2008, 8:14 PM
Well I'm over 45 now and did time in an organised branch of the US military. So does that mean I can't be part of a militia?
I think that we need one to protect the country while our illustrious government has ALL branches of their military engaged on foreign soil.
We could get together and form a shooting club, but we would not be able to practice any military stuff or they would say we are trying to over throw the government.

Piper
02-02-2008, 8:14 PM
We have a militia, but it's being supressed and ignored just like the Brits did when we were still a colony.

CitaDeL
02-02-2008, 8:16 PM
Couple of brief points;

1) A 'militia' isn't a club or group your join or create- the people, with the exception of a few public figures, are the militia. This means you, me and anyone willing to defend the Constitution are already 'militia strong'.

2) Wiki is never wrong- it's there in black and white and its on the internets.

3) State law prohibits paramilitary training, but allows radical groups to assault the general public with weapons known to cause obesity and tooth decay. It's high time we make a law to regulate the tiny terrorists and their weapons of mass ingestion. I say we ban Thin Mints first and place regulations to reduce the capacity on packages of Do-Si-Do's and Shortbreads. Soon they will be limited to Sugar Free Chocolate Chip.

4) There is no law prohibiting any number of friends from enjoying perforating paper targets with projectiles and no law regulating what this group of friends call themselves.

RRangel
02-02-2008, 8:38 PM
I thought we all were the militia.




http://www.consolefan.com/wolverines.jpg

fairfaxjim
02-02-2008, 8:43 PM
Check the Penal Code, there are codes for practicing military tactics. Can't find it right now but I've posted it before. They've made it illegal to engage in militia training.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

Try PC 11460.
11460. (a) Any two or more persons who assemble as a paramilitary
organization for the purpose of practicing with weapons shall be
punished by imprisonment in a county jail for not more than one year
or by a fine of not more than one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by
both that fine and imprisonment.

There is actually some qualifying definitions that further define this one, but they could definitely use it against a "home brew" militia if they wanted to.

KenpoProfessor
02-02-2008, 8:47 PM
Try PC 11460.
11460. (a) Any two or more persons who assemble as a paramilitary
organization for the purpose of practicing with weapons shall be
punished by imprisonment in a county jail for not more than one year
or by a fine of not more than one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by
both that fine and imprisonment.

There is actually some qualifying definitions that further define this one, but they could definitely use it against a "home brew" militia if they wanted to.


Yep, that's the one I was looking for. Well, I'm surprised no one has got this in court yet, it's truly a 2nd amendment issue, especially as the 9th circus says it's a collective right, but CA has outlawed to ability to form a militia.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

virulosity
02-02-2008, 8:54 PM
A well regulated militia should definitely have a...
http://www.russian-victories.ru/bear_cavalry.jpg
BEAR CAVALRY

liketoshoot
02-02-2008, 9:01 PM
Try PC 11460.
11460. (a) Any two or more persons who assemble as a paramilitary
organization for the purpose of practicing with weapons shall be
punished by imprisonment in a county jail for not more than one year
or by a fine of not more than one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by
both that fine and imprisonment.

There is actually some qualifying definitions that further define this one, but they could definitely use it against a "home brew" militia if they wanted to.

Well thats like a lumpy wet fart.
So you can "gather" as a club of like minded shooters and do any and everything you like as long as you do not say or do anything military.
yea that makes sense.

Rhys898
02-02-2008, 9:05 PM
I know the appleseed project (http://www.appleseedinfo.org/) was planning a get together for just general rifle training at APS several years ago but got scared off by PC 11460. I think they received emails threatening to call the sheriff if they went through with the meet/class.

Jer

EastBayRidge
02-02-2008, 10:01 PM
A well regulated militia should definitely have a...
http://www.russian-victories.ru/bear_cavalry.jpg
BEAR CAVALRY

Well that certainly does cover the dyslexic version of the 2nd Amendment, where we have the right to keep and arm bears...:D

BTF/PTM
02-02-2008, 10:06 PM
You became a member of the militia when you turned 18. Bingo. My name is on a list just like everyone else's. I'm not a religious man, but here's to praying that our guns are not confiscated for two reasons:

1) as everyone already understands, taking guns away from those who would uphold their laws and willingly give them only gives power to those who get their guns illegally.

2) if localized attacks are ever made on U.S. soil, an America without armed citizens is an America that will be well protected near a military base but there for the taking in any area where militarized occupation is thin. I may not be a soldier, but you betcher *** I'll stand my ground if we are invaded. With everything going in in the world these days I'd say there's potential for very real threats if the fecal matter hits the rotary oscillator.

*edit* and yes, I think a militia would be a great idea for exactly the reason stated above. How long did it take for the Guvmint to get the National Guard into New Orleans when Katrina hit? Is that gonna happen if a remote city somewhere in suburbia ends up being the center for an attack? Eff that, meng, minute men FTW.

Rhys898
02-02-2008, 10:24 PM
I know the appleseed project (http://www.appleseedinfo.org/) was planning a get together for just general rifle training at APS several years ago but got scared off by PC 11460. I think they received emails threatening to call the sheriff if they went through with the meet/class.

Looks like they got things straightened out with a lawyer. I just dug into their forums and see that they do have events scheduled for Ca again, including one in April in Piru which is right around the corner for me.

Jer

aileron
02-02-2008, 11:12 PM
This sounds cool, they have one in corona on March 8th and 9th.

http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=1289.0

Me thinks me is going. :)

pullnshoot25
02-02-2008, 11:27 PM
Bingo. My name is on a list just like everyone else's. I'm not a religious man, but here's to praying that our guns are not confiscated for two reasons:

1) as everyone already understands, taking guns away from those who would uphold their laws and willingly give them only gives power to those who get their guns illegally.

2) if localized attacks are ever made on U.S. soil, an America without armed citizens is an America that will be well protected near a military base but there for the taking in any area where militarized occupation is thin. I may not be a soldier, but you betcher *** I'll stand my ground if we are invaded. With everything going in in the world these days I'd say there's potential for very real threats if the fecal matter hits the rotary oscillator.

*edit* and yes, I think a militia would be a great idea for exactly the reason stated above. How long did it take for the Guvmint to get the National Guard into New Orleans when Katrina hit? Is that gonna happen if a remote city somewhere in suburbia ends up being the center for an attack? Eff that, meng, minute men FTW.

You mean the Goobermint?

I know what you mean about New Orleans. Interestingly enough, everything was pretty damned orderly when the fires hit Kalifornia. +1 for Kalifornia being organized to some degree, eh?

NeoWeird
02-03-2008, 12:14 AM
You mean the Goobermint?

I know what you mean about New Orleans. Interestingly enough, everything was pretty damned orderly when the fires hit Kalifornia. +1 for Kalifornia being organized to some degree, eh?

The fires came after New Orleans when everyone was willing to help. We had departments from several other states come to help. I don't think the US government got involved, which would have probably further exasterbated the problem. Not saying that California doesn't have things under control, just pointing out we didn't handle it on our own.

It was handled better than New Orleans but then again we have departments set up to fight fires; we don't really have departments to handle entire citys washed away by massive floods. Reaching the needed areas with supplies was the biggest problem in New Orleans.

Back to the subject; I think every serious person should have a home brew firearm and sidearm and meet regularly to hold competition. Keep a small supply of ammo and supplies ready and that's the best you can do in our state at this time. When the time comes you're ready. You can all take first aid courses, competitive shooting, exercise with your friends, etc but you can't do it all at once in our state. The number one thing you have to leave out is a heirarchy. You may have a club president (not sure if clubs have to be officialized in some manner though) and maybe a board of elders/appointees, but outside of that you can't have ranks of any kind. Without rank it's pretty damn hard to have any military or paramilitary anything. So form your 'outdoors club' and don't have rank. Problem solved.

jarios
02-03-2008, 1:12 AM
Doesn't being a member of the "unorganized" militia and being registered with the Selective Service System (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_Service_System) reinforce my right to privately own and train with equipment currently available to soldiers? I just do not see the logic behind disarming citizens and expecting them to fight as conscripts for the country during times of war. I would be more confident training in marksmanship out of my own pocket in times of peace at my leisure rather than being rushed through training after being drafted and tossed out to fend for myself in a war environment.

NeoWeird
02-03-2008, 3:23 AM
Doesn't being a member of the "unorganized" militia and being registered with the Selective Service System (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_Service_System) reinforce my right to privately own and train with equipment currently available to soldiers? I just do not see the logic behind disarming citizens and expecting them to fight as conscripts for the country during times of war. I would be more confident training in marksmanship out of my own pocket in times of peace at my leisure rather than being rushed through training after being drafted and tossed out to fend for myself in a war environment.

But you made the number one mistake when referring to gun control:

Gun control is illogical so nothing about it, or in regards to it, will ever be logical.

EastBayRidge
02-03-2008, 7:13 AM
But you made the number one mistake when referring to gun control:

Gun control is illogical so nothing about it, or in regards to it, will ever be logical.

Amen. Looking for logic in most of these laws will have you in a straight-jacket very quickly. :shock:

Harrison_Bergeron
02-03-2008, 8:07 AM
How do the Minutemen fit into this discussion? Wouldn't they fit the bill of a militia operating in CA?

CitaDeL
02-03-2008, 8:37 AM
How do the Minutemen fit into this discussion? Wouldn't they fit the bill of a militia operating in CA?

Leaders and membership would be cautious to accept such a designation, but for the lack of a better single word description, they are a militia.

BTF/PTM
02-03-2008, 9:01 AM
I probably used the term "minute men" in my argument improperly. What I mean is, it's unrealistic to depend on the U.S. Military to aid any city or town in the event of a domestic attack if that city isn't near one of the bases. It's analogous to having a break-down when you're fifty miles outside of the nearest city and you have to wait for a tow truck. How long is it gonna take to get help where it needs to be? A break-down is no big deal, just hang out and wait. An attack is a big deal, things could get real bad real quick if guvmintal takes days to get there. The "minute men" I spoke of are simply citizens able and willing to stand their ground. I can't think of anything more effective as a deterrent to attack than an entire nation of citizens ready and willing to push back.

SemiAutoSam
02-03-2008, 9:13 AM
Hence another reason to "KNOW" who you are.

If you claim that you are a "U.S. citizen" (Federal citizen) then you can be conscripted into National Service.

See 2nd link from the top in my sig line If you would like to know more about the difference between a US citizen (Federal citizen) and a united states Citizen (State Citizen)..

Current status
The United States abandoned the draft in 1973 under President Richard Nixon, ended the Selective Service registration requirement in 1975 under President Gerald Ford, and then re-instated the Selective Service registration requirement in 1980 under President Jimmy Carter.

Today the Selective Service System remains as a contingency, should a military draft be re-introduced.[4]

Under current law, all male U.S. citizens are required to register with Selective Service within 30 days of their 18th birthday. Certain male aliens residing in the U.S., including those present illegally, are also required to register if they are between 18 and 26 years of age. "Willful" failure or refusal to present oneself for registration is against the law.[5][6]

In 1980, young men who knew they were required to register and did not do so, could face up to five years in jail or a fine up to $50,000 if convicted. The potential fine was later increased to $250,000. Despite these possible penalties, government records indicate that from 1980 through 1986 there were only 20 indictments, of which 19 were instigated in part by self-publicized and self-reported non-registration.[7] As one of the elements of the offense, the government must prove that a violation of the Military Selective Service Act was knowing and willful. This is almost impossible unless the prospective defendant has publicly stated that he knew he was required to register or report for induction, or unless he has been visited by the FBI, personally served with notice to register or report for induction, and given another chance to comply. The last prosecution for non-registration was in January 1986, after which many believed the government declined to continue prosecutions when it became apparent that the trials were themselves causing a decline in registration. Unlike the situation at the time when the draft was in effect, routine checks for identification virtually never include a request for draft card.



Doesn't being a member of the "unorganized" militia and being registered with the Selective Service System (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_Service_System) reinforce my right to privately own and train with equipment currently available to soldiers? I just do not see the logic behind disarming citizens and expecting them to fight as conscripts for the country during times of war. I would be more confident training in marksmanship out of my own pocket in times of peace at my leisure rather than being rushed through training after being drafted and tossed out to fend for myself in a war environment.

BTF/PTM
02-03-2008, 9:26 AM
^I'm a U.S. citizen, I already knew that. What was the point of that?

smogcity
02-03-2008, 9:44 AM
This sounds cool, they have one in corona on March 8th and 9th.

http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=1289.0

Me thinks me is going. :)


This looks like a blast for low$$$...I'm thinking of going too

SemiAutoSam
02-03-2008, 10:06 AM
I suppose the only point was that the state militia was made up of other than only US citizens from the time of the 2nd Amendments enactment than just Federal citizens.

When the 2nd Amendment was enacted the 14th Amendment had not yet been enacted and hence there were no such thing as a Federal Citizen unless one was born in Washington DC.

IE as well US Supreme court cases state that even in this day and age there is a difference between a Federal citizen and a State Citizen.

You most likely automatically think you are a U.S. citizen because you have been told you are all of your life.
But do you really know what it means to be a U.S. citizen ? Most likely not Learn more at the link below.

Knowing what you are can set you free.
Richard McDonald former law enforcement officer's website below.
http://www.state-citizen.org/

Read here as well if you would like to know more.
http://www.originalintent.org/edu/citizenship.php
http://www.originalintent.org/edu/constitutions.php
http://www.originalintent.org/edu/14thamend.php


^I'm a U.S. citizen, I already knew that. What was the point of that?

swift
02-03-2008, 10:21 AM
Does Blackwater get special treatment to allow it to train people for duties overseas? They sure seem to be a militia.

liketoshoot
02-03-2008, 10:34 AM
Does Blackwater get special treatment to allow it to train people for duties overseas? They sure seem to be a militia.
Good question as they are over in the hot zones and carry military type weapons and wear "uniforms". I'm pretty sure they have military type tactic training too.

NeoWeird
02-03-2008, 1:06 PM
Yup. Blackwater doesn't have "rank" if I remember right. There are employees and the employer with "managment". They are a coorporation (or whatever the special term is) that allows them to purchase Class III weapons. Everything they do is by the books and meets the letter of the law to a T.

Plus, they have no reserve or duty towards America. Outside of being located in America they ave no obligation to defend it if it were to come under attack. They most certainly would since they are all real Americans, but they don't have any special duty like a militia would. For that same reason, as sick as it is, they could in essence be hired by a foreign country to attack America. This would never happen but it is theoretically possible.

GuyW
02-03-2008, 1:11 PM
We already have a "well regulated militia" as I was taught in high school, they were sent to Iraq and to guard the border....


I hope that by now you suspect that everything taught in government schools isn't necessarily true...

GuyW
02-03-2008, 1:13 PM
Why not just start a large shooting group? Less LE attention and if a ban did come you can have a band of brothers to stand for freedom. Also all males between 18-45 are already part of a militia.

Yes - walk like a duck, etc...but don't let media brand you as a duck, as some words have unfortunately been dragged through the muck already...

GuyW
02-03-2008, 1:15 PM
I think most people realise that the Militia is not the military nor is it the National Guard as it wasn't created at the time the 2nd Amendment was written.

People around here, yes - but most of the others can't tell the left cheek from the right...

GuyW
02-03-2008, 1:19 PM
Check the Penal Code, there are codes for practicing military tactics. Can't find it right now but I've posted it before. They've made it illegal to engage in militia training....

No it makes it illegal to band together to conspire to commit acts of lawlessness...

GuyW
02-03-2008, 1:28 PM
Try PC 11460.
11460. (a) Any two or more persons who assemble as a paramilitary organization for the purpose of practicing with weapons shall be punished by imprisonment in a county jail for not more than one year or by a fine of not more than one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both that fine and imprisonment.

There is actually some qualifying definitions that further define this one, but they could definitely use it against a "home brew" militia if they wanted to.

Yeah - those qualifying definitions portray an entirely different picture:

"As used in this subdivision, "paramilitary organization" means an organization which is not an agency of the United States government or of the State of California, or which is not a private school meeting the requirements set forth in Section 48222 of the Education Code, but which engages in instruction or training in guerrilla warfare or sabotage, or which, as an organization, engages in rioting or the violent disruption of, or the violent interference with, school activities.

(b) (1) Any person who teaches or demonstrates to any other person the use, application, or making of any firearm, explosive, or destructive device, or technique capable of causing injury or death to persons, knowing or having reason to know or intending that these objects or techniques will be unlawfully employed for use in, or in the furtherance of a civil disorder, or any person who assembles with one or more other persons for the purpose of training with, practicing with, or being instructed in the use of any firearm, explosive, or destructive device, or technique capable of causing injury or death to persons, with the intent to cause or further a civil disorder, shall be punished by imprisonment in the county jail for not more than one year or by a fine of not more than one thousand
dollars ($1,000), or by both that fine and imprisonment."

fairfaxjim
02-03-2008, 3:31 PM
Yeah - those qualifying definitions portray an entirely different picture:

"As used in this subdivision, "paramilitary organization" means an organization which is not an agency of the United States government or of the State of California, or which is not a private school meeting the requirements set forth in Section 48222 of the Education Code, but which engages in instruction or training in guerrilla warfare or sabotage, or which, as an organization, engages in rioting or the violent disruption of, or the violent interference with, school activities.

(b) (1) Any person who teaches or demonstrates to any other person the use, application, or making of any firearm, explosive, or destructive device, or technique capable of causing injury or death to persons, knowing or having reason to know or intending that these objects or techniques will be unlawfully employed for use in, or in the furtherance of a civil disorder, or any person who assembles with one or more other persons for the purpose of training with, practicing with, or being instructed in the use of any firearm, explosive, or destructive device, or technique capable of causing injury or death to persons, with the intent to cause or further a civil disorder, shall be punished by imprisonment in the county jail for not more than one year or by a fine of not more than one thousand
dollars ($1,000), or by both that fine and imprisonment."

And the DA that draws your case will take the time to read those as well as those that have drawn bogus AW arrest cases have read those definitions. Your lawful expression of your rights may well be someone elses definition of civil disorder. Laws that use premisis of knowing, having reason to know, or relying on "intentions" have a lot of lattitude for prosecutorial presumtion.

I still maintain that a law such as this makes forming any sort of para military or militia like organization, particularly in todays' hypersensitive increased awareness of terrorist threats, very risky at best. The American revolution fits the definitions of that law exactly. The 2nd ammendment was a guarantee that US citizens would always have that same tool at hand should their government become oppressive. Funny how governments that fear their own citizens write laws that subvert these very tools.

KenpoProfessor
02-03-2008, 3:37 PM
And the DA that draws your case will take the time to read those as well as those that have drawn bogus AW arrest cases have read those definitions. Your lawful expression of your rights may well be someone elses definition of civil disorder. Laws that use premisis of knowing, having reason to know, or relying on "intentions" have a lot of lattitude for prosecutorial presumtion.

I still maintain that a law such as this makes forming any sort of para military or militia like organization, particularly in todays' hypersensitive increased awareness of terrorist threats, very risky at best. The American revolution fits the definitions of that law exactly. The 2nd ammendment was a guarantee that US citizens would always have that same tool at hand should their government become oppressive. Funny how governments that fear their own citizens write laws that subvert these very tools.


That's how I see/saw it when I made the intial post referencing it. The government is protecting itself with these laws knowing the people might just pull a Declaration of Independence move.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

AggregatVier
02-04-2008, 7:13 PM
As an intent of the Militia was to protect the community you could follow in kind by taking free CERT classes sponsored by your local fire department. The classes given by the LAFD (and LACFD) are particularly excellent. You get to meet regularly to practice your emergency and disaster preparedness skills. That, along with Red Cross classes and some wilderness survival courses all you have to add is range time.

shawnyteee
02-04-2008, 9:25 PM
correct me if I'm wrong...

I read somewhere that forming a group consisting of 2 or more people with intention of training with firearms is illegal?

I read this somewhere but I don't think it was legal precedent.

DSA_FAL
02-04-2008, 10:33 PM
It seems to that the anti-paramilitary law is unconstitutional on both 1st and 2nd amendment grounds. Does anyone know the history of this law?

So who here is going to take one for the team and be a test case? we need two volunteers. ;) j/k

But on a more serious note, it looks like this law is overly broad and any firearms group could be nailed with this law if overzealous prosecutors wanted to, especially if the group ventures even a little past strictly being firearms and towards any survivalist or SHTF training.