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Fjold
01-31-2008, 12:41 PM
The law as read says:

12278. (a) As used in this chapter, a ".50 BMG rifle" means a center fire rifle that can fire a .50 BMG cartridge and is not already an assault weapon pursuant to Section 12276, 12276.1, or 12276.5, or a machinegun, as defined in Section 12200.
(b) As used in this chapter, a ".50 BMG cartridge" means a cartridge that is designed and intended to be fired from a center fire rifle and that meets all of the following criteria:
(1) It has an overall length of 5.54 inches from the base to the tip of the bullet.
(2) The bullet diameter for the cartridge is from .510 to, and including, .511 inch.
(3) The case base diameter for the cartridge is from .800 inch to, and including, .804 inch.
(4) The cartridge case length is 3.91 inches.
(c) A ".50 BMG rifle" does not include any "antique firearm," nor any curio or relic as defined in Section 178.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations.
(d) As used in this section, "antique firearm" means any firearm manufactured prior to January 1, 1899.


My question is with this:

(b) As used in this chapter, a ".50 BMG cartridge" means a cartridge that is designed and intended to be fired from a center fire rifle and that meets all of the following criteria:
(1) It has an overall length of 5.54 inches from the base to the tip of the bullet.
(2) The bullet diameter for the cartridge is from .510 to, and including, .511 inch.
(3) The case base diameter for the cartridge is from .800 inch to, and including, .804 inch.
(4) The cartridge case length is 3.91 inches


and specifically:

".....that meets all of the following criteria:
(1) It has an overall length of 5.54 inches from the base to the tip of the bullet. "


What if you seat a bullet to a different overall length that changes the overall length of the cartridge to other than 5.54"?

Is it no longer a ".50 BMG Cartridge"?

Lohse
01-31-2008, 12:48 PM
The problem is that someone with a 50 BMG cartridge of 5.54 inches in length can put it in your 50 BMG rifle and it will fire. You can seat all the bullets you want at 5.53 inches, but your rifle will still fire a cartridge of 5.54 inches.

dfletcher
01-31-2008, 1:35 PM
Are there any BMG rifles that are C & R eligible?

ke6guj
01-31-2008, 1:40 PM
supposedly a Boyes Rifle that is converted to .50BMG is still C&R and would be exempt.

leelaw
01-31-2008, 1:40 PM
If it can fire a .50BMG, then it's still a .50BMG rifle. There have been modificatins to the round which require some re-sizing/shaping of the case, but the overall round is the exact same.

It's called .50 DTC

http://serbu.com/50bmg/ca50.php

Fjold
01-31-2008, 1:44 PM
So if it was chambered exactly to 50 BMG specs but short throated to not accept a bullet seated longer than 5.50", would it be a 50 BMG?

draconianruler
01-31-2008, 1:45 PM
Many other BMG rifle makers also offer the 50 DTC as an option for us behind the iron curtain ;)

ke6guj
01-31-2008, 1:49 PM
So if it was chambered exactly to 50 BMG specs but short throated to not accept a bullet seated longer than 5.50", would it be a 50 BMG?

The question would then be, could a standard 50bmg round be chambered if you rammed it in and the bullet got pushed back into the case?

Why go about wildcatting your own 50BMG variant when there is already a "mainstream" variant like the 50DTC?

VAHEVAHE
01-31-2008, 1:56 PM
The question would then be, could a standard 50bmg round be chambered if you rammed it in and the bullet got pushed back into the case?

Why go about wildcatting your own 50BMG variant when there is already a "mainstream" variant like the 50DTC?

+99

mrkubota
01-31-2008, 2:30 PM
Since there is no SAAMI spec for .50BMG, AB-50 in effect, defines the CA standard for the cartridge. So, technically, such a round as you describe would be 'legal'.
Still, we have seen how the CA D.O.J. in the OLL shinanigans will twist and spin even their own statutes to fit the opinion du jour.
FWIW, when the EDM DTC rifles were first introduced, gun show agents attempted to chamber a dummy .50BMG round into the DTC chamber before admitting it really wasn't a .50BMG gun. The test though would appear to be whether or not THEIR test cartrige will chamber in YOUR gun.

YMMV

draconianruler
01-31-2008, 2:51 PM
The question would then be, could a standard 50bmg round be chambered if you rammed it in and the bullet got pushed back into the case?

Why go about wildcatting your own 50BMG variant when there is already a "mainstream" variant like the 50DTC?

+10000000 :D A BMG cartridge might fit if someone shove it in there and the bullet seats back.

DrjonesUSA
01-31-2008, 3:45 PM
What if you seat a bullet to a different overall length that changes the overall length of the cartridge to other than 5.54"?

Is it no longer a ".50 BMG Cartridge"?


While I applaud your efforts, you're looking at it the wrong way: the state didn't ban the .50BMG cartridge, they banned firearms chambered in .50BMG.

allenst65
01-31-2008, 4:45 PM
While I applaud your efforts, you're looking at it the wrong way: the state didn't ban the .50BMG cartridge, they banned firearms chambered in .50BMG.

Actually, they banned 'rifles' that can fire the .50BMG cartridge. I believe this poorly worded opening has been exercised by those who continue to use their 'non-rifle' M2 type platforms.

DrjonesUSA
01-31-2008, 4:50 PM
Actually, they banned 'rifles' that can fire the .50BMG cartridge. I believe this poorly worded opening has been exercised by those who continue to use their 'non-rifle' M2 type platforms.

Yep, you're right.

They did specifically ban RIFLES, and since the M2 is not considered a "rifle", there are many happy M2 owners in the state.

Good lord, I'd love to have one of those..... :drool5::drool5::drool5:

daves100
01-31-2008, 4:56 PM
http://www.1919a4.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=13756

Hunter
01-31-2008, 5:16 PM
......

For the money, one would be better served to not get a TNW trigger system and instead use the more common and robust KMP trigger/sear. The TNW semi-auto trigger/sear have shown lots of problems with use that results in premature wear. Also a complete receiver (newly mfg) box (just as pictured in the GB) can be had from Allied Armament for the same or less than this GB is going for and they use the KMP trigger.

gazzavc
01-31-2008, 7:09 PM
supposedly a Boyes Rifle that is converted to .50BMG is still C&R and would be exempt.

Correct. A Boyes rifle in .50 cal is still considered a C&R rifle. As per tech branch: "As long as it it externally unaltered (read Bubba'd) it is still considered a C&R."

Thats how I transferred mine.

Gary

timdps
01-31-2008, 7:23 PM
So that would also apply to Russian PTRD or PTRS anti tank rifles rechambered (sleeved) to .50bmg?

tim

Correct. A Boyes rifle in .50 cal is still considered a C&R rifle. As per tech branch: "As long as it it externally unaltered (read Bubba'd) it is still considered a C&R."

Thats how I transferred mine.

Gary

ke6guj
01-31-2008, 7:26 PM
So that would also apply to Russian PTRD or PTRS anti tank rifles rechambered (sleeved) to .50bmg?

timAre they C&R?

edit: Yes they are. So the same reason that you can rebarrel a Boyes should apply to the PTRD and PTRS. Or, you could keep them in 14.5x114 and pay the $200 tax. No CADOJ permit needed, since CA DD doesn't start until .60"


Remember, with the PTRS, you still have to deal with AW rules.

timdps
01-31-2008, 8:30 PM
Thanks! Very interesting.

These are to be used for WWII reenacting and movie work and I was considering sleeving for shotgun blanks, so this gives another option.

I suspect the 14.5mm ammo is going to be hard to find...

tim

Are they C&R?

edit: Yes they are. So the same reason that you can rebarrel a Boyes should apply to the PTRD and PTRS. Or, you could keep them in 14.5x114 and pay the $200 tax. No CADOJ permit needed, since CA DD doesn't start until .60"


Remember, with the PTRS, you still have to deal with AW rules.

M. Sage
01-31-2008, 8:41 PM
MMmmmm, PTRS. Biggest damn Simonov you'll ever see! :chris:

jamesob
01-31-2008, 8:49 PM
the law states about case size and gives the exact case size bullet seting the bullet deeper doesn't matter it still would have the same case. so illegal

Fjold
01-31-2008, 8:54 PM
the law states about case size and gives the exact case size bullet seting the bullet deeper doesn't matter it still would have the same case. so illegal


Nope James.

The law says :

(b) As used in this chapter, a ".50 BMG cartridge" means a cartridge that is designed and intended to be fired from a center fire rifle and that meets all of the following criteria:

(1) It has an overall length of 5.54 inches from the base to the tip of the bullet.
(2) The bullet diameter for the cartridge is from .510 to, and including, .511 inch.
(3) The case base diameter for the cartridge is from .800 inch to, and including, .804 inch.
(4) The cartridge case length is 3.91 inches

So it must meet all of the dimensions, case and overall length.

Fjold
01-31-2008, 9:03 PM
I think that the easiest way to get around it is to build the bolt face to .750" and turn the rim of the cartridge cases down to .745" and then all I have to do is turn the rim of surplus ammo down once. This way the bolt will not fit a 50 BMG case.

I'll have to build a shell holder in that size also.

ke6guj
01-31-2008, 9:27 PM
C&R status does not exempt any weapon from CA AW status..Correct. But there is a C&R exemption for 50BMG rifles.


12278. (a) As used in this chapter, a ".50 BMG rifle" means a center fire rifle that can fire a .50 BMG cartridge and is not already an assault weapon pursuant to Section 12276, 12276.1, or 12276.5, or a machinegun, as defined in Section 12200.
(b) As used in this chapter, a ".50 BMG cartridge" means a cartridge that is designed and intended to be fired from a center fire rifle and that meets all of the following criteria:
(1) It has an overall length of 5.54 inches from the base to the tip of the bullet.
(2) The bullet diameter for the cartridge is from .510 to, and including, .511 inch.
(3) The case base diameter for the cartridge is from .800 inch to, and including, .804 inch.
(4) The cartridge case length is 3.91 inches.
(c) A ".50 BMG rifle" does not include any "antique firearm," nor any curio or relic as defined in Section 178.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations.

mrkubota
01-31-2008, 9:32 PM
I think that the easiest way to get around it is to build the bolt face to .750" and turn the rim of the cartridge cases down to .745" and then all I have to do is turn the rim of surplus ammo down once. This way the bolt will not fit a 50 BMG case.

I'll have to build a shell holder in that size also.

I don't believe that would work.... the test was only that the sample BMG cartrige CHAMBER into the gun in question, not be safe to fire or extract.
IIRC, that's how they got Bob Stewart's Maadi kits off the market, claming they could be bubba'd into 'working' guns easily. The example shown, might've fired.... once.... and probably killed the user too if it did.

As pointed out previously, the CHAMBER must not be able to accept a BMG cartridge.

Hopi
01-31-2008, 9:37 PM
Warm up them credit cards.....

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=90844506

http://san1.atlanta.gbhinc.com/GB/090844000/90844506/pix1317957921.jpg

ke6guj
01-31-2008, 9:39 PM
Sweet. Aren't those exemptions nice :D

Fjold
01-31-2008, 9:42 PM
I don't believe that would work.... the test was only that the sample BMG cartrige CHAMBER into the gun in question, not be safe to fire or extract.
IIRC, that's how they got Bob Stewart's Maadi kits off the market, claming they could be bubba'd into 'working' guns easily. The example shown, might've fired.... once.... and probably killed the user too if it did.

As pointed out previously, the CHAMBER must not be able to accept a BMG cartridge.


Why is it that I quote the law but no one reads it ?

The law says:

12278. (a) As used in this chapter, a ".50 BMG rifle" means a center fire rifle that can fire a .50 BMG cartridge and is not already an assault weapon pursuant to Section 12276, 12276.1, or 12276.5, or a machinegun, as defined in Section 12200.

If the rim of a 50 BMG cartridge will not fit in the bolt face then the gun cannot fire the round.

Hopi
01-31-2008, 9:43 PM
Sweet. Aren't those exemptions nice :D

Sure are. I was going to go ahead and get the above rifle, but i realized that I'd have to throw a Bullet button on it.......i can't afford another Bullet button.......

ke6guj
01-31-2008, 9:45 PM
Sure are. I was going to go ahead and get the above rifle, but i realized that I'd have to throw a Bullet button on it.......i can't afford another Bullet button....... HA HA. But you don't need a Bullet button for it, its a Bolt-action, not a semi:D

mrkubota
01-31-2008, 9:46 PM
my point is, that the 'testers' are known to MAKE a gun fire in ways not necessarily the way you or I would consider safe... :)

Hopi
01-31-2008, 9:47 PM
HA HA. But you don't need a Bullet button for it, its a Bolt-action, not a semi:D

:kest:

Well now, where is my credit card then.....:D

jamesob
01-31-2008, 9:52 PM
well if the bullet is set deaper in the case it would still fire in any other bmg rifle. even if you set your bullet further out it would still chamber the round. it would just push the bullet deeper into the lands. here is my take on it. if you were found to have a bmg with the bullet set deeper into the case, what they would probobly do is take your round and put into another gun and see if it would fire. and guess what it would and they would hang your ***. i think the overall length would probably not play that big of a role in trial.

gazzavc
01-31-2008, 9:56 PM
Warm up them credit cards.....

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=90844506

http://san1.atlanta.gbhinc.com/GB/090844000/90844506/pix1317957921.jpg

Crikey

$7500 is a bit steep. The going rate is around 5K and less than perfect specimens are around the 3500 mark.

This bloke is hopeful for someone desperate

Gaz

P.S. Being a Boyes owner, I would seriously recommend NOT repeat NOT firing it from a tripod in that configuration.
The whole lot will go arse over tip, and would make you look bloody silly at the gun club.

XDshooter
01-31-2008, 11:06 PM
They did specifically ban RIFLES......



So, what your saying is that my 50BMG upper AR pistol build is legal then huh? sweeeeet :cool:

Guns R Tools
01-31-2008, 11:27 PM
50 BMG pistol is whole new ball game.
If you do that many 50BMG shooters will hates you.

ke6guj
01-31-2008, 11:30 PM
If you do that many 50BMG shooters will hates you.Yup, opens up classifying all steel-core ammo as armor-piercing. If you are gonna do something like that, keep it over 16" barrel/ 26" OAL to make it not a pistol. If it doesn't have a shoulder stock, it would just be a "firearm", and may fall into the "not a 50BMG Rifle" area.

mrkubota
01-31-2008, 11:31 PM
50 BMG pistol is whole new ball game.
If you do that many 50BMG shooters will hates you.

You're right about that!!!!!

Rumpled
02-01-2008, 1:35 AM
IIRC, when drafted, the law had the dimensions WRONG for a .50 BMg.
I don't remember which dimension, or if it has been corrected administratively or not.

SigShooter
02-01-2008, 9:49 AM
Remember, with the PTRS, you still have to deal with AW rules.

Just wondering why this is? I figured since the PTRS is a clip fed weapon utilizing a "swing away" magazine, it would not be considered an AW.

ke6guj
02-01-2008, 12:28 PM
Just wondering why this is? I figured since the PTRS is a clip fed weapon utilizing a "swing away" magazine, it would not be considered an AW.I meant that you needed to make sure that it would comply with AW rules, and it appears that it does.

I knew it was semi-auto, has a pistol grip, and was mag-fed. I hadn't noticed that the magazine was an attached swing-away body and that it appears to use en-bloc clips like a Garand.