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Gryff
01-28-2008, 3:07 PM
I have a hypothetical situation that has crossed my mind more than once.

As you know, during Hurricane Katrina, New Orleans city officials decided to start seizing all privately owned weapons regardless of whether they were owned legally or not.

Since that time, Congress has passed a law making this illegal. But for the moment, set that aside.

What is a citizen's right to refuse an illegal request by a law enforcement official? And what happens when the citizen feels that refusing that request is critically important for maintaining the safety of themselves and their family (such as giving up your legally owned weapons in the midst of widespread looting and chaos)?

This is one of those Lose-Lose propositions that I worry about in California. Being in the Bay Area, we are going to have a very large earthquake someday. And if it is big enough, it could cause massive damage and disable governmental infrastructure in large parts of the region.

Despite it now being knowingly illegal, I can still envision our local/state leaders doing the same thing as in New Orleans..."Hand over your guns for the safety of the community as a whole."

What right does a private citizen have in refusing an illegal request by law enforcement officials. If they have a list from the state of the guns that you own, does that constitute probable cause? If they need but don't have a search warrant, what right do you have to prevent them from entering your home?

I am not advocating the use of force against law enforcement officers. That would be the ultimate nightmare, since they are just trying to do their jobs in the midst of this hypothetical chaos. But how far can I go to protect my family?

Once upon a time, I would have said, "Yeah, right." to a hypothetical situation such as this. Now, the issue actually scares me because it has proved to NOT be outside the realm of reality.

-Jim

Hopi
01-28-2008, 3:13 PM
Unless you are willing to pull the trigger to defend what you feel is worth defending, you, like the rest of us, are screwed.

It is sad, scary, and worth getting pissed about.

Where is that video of the little old lady being tackled and beaten by the CHP?



Edited to add:
What do you think of this passage:
A provision of emergency law was refined in May 1976. Legislation was
enacted granting the President the authority to order certain selected members of an
armed services reserve component to active duty without a declaration of war or
national emergency.64 Previously, such an activation of military reserve personnel
had been limited to a “time of national emergency declared by the President” or
“when otherwise authorized by law.”65

Matt C
01-28-2008, 3:15 PM
If it's an unlawful request/demand the LE status of the person giving it has no legal bearing on the situation. I would respond the same way I would if anyone I did not know asked to come in my house and take my guns absent a lawful court order. During an emergency where I was depending on those firearms to prevent myself or my family members from being killed or seriously injured I would not even answer my door. A person using force to unlawfully enter my home would certainly cause me to be in fear for my life, and thus I would likely respond with deadly force if I had no other option. I'm a bit more formidable than an 80+ year old lady...

ViPER395
01-28-2008, 3:18 PM
*tag

http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/images/smilies/popcorn.gif

Ironchef
01-28-2008, 3:25 PM
What right does a private citizen have in refusing an illegal request by law enforcement officials.

Probably none as their search & destroy order will usurp those rights you'd have. You would probably want to study the SHTF thread on this topic (not sure where it is) but it has some nice responses to that knock on the door.

Corbin Dallas
01-28-2008, 3:25 PM
If it's an unlawful request/demand the LE status of the person giving it has no legal bearing on the situation. I would respond the same way I would if anyone I did not know asked to come in my house and take my guns absent a lawful court order. During an emergency where I was depending on those firearms to prevent myself or my family members from being killed or seriously injured I would not even answer my door. A person using force to unlawfully enter my home would certainly cause me to be in fear for my life, and thus I would likely respond with deadly force if I had no other option. I'm a bit more formidable than an 80+ year old lady...


Behind the locked security gate that is my front door...

"You got a warrant?" No? Have a nice day officers.

Weapons? What weapons?

No, you may not come inside without a warrant.

Have a nice day officers.

ldivinag
01-28-2008, 3:28 PM
well FWIW, gov rino...er ahhhh-nold recently signed a bill:

http://calnra.com/legs.shtml?year=2007&summary=ab1645

Steyr_223
01-28-2008, 3:30 PM
I would not worry about the local LE, they would be swamped during a major EQ. However, I would be more concerned about NGO's Blackwater or other such entities. Remember those contractors, Ravenswood on the that show
Jericho..


http://www.cbs.com/primetime/jericho/

Ironchef
01-28-2008, 3:30 PM
Sweet! Good thing Stalone isn't our governor.

chris
01-28-2008, 3:34 PM
What right does a private citizen have in refusing an illegal request by law enforcement officials.

Probably none as their search & destroy order will usurp those rights you'd have. You would probably want to study the SHTF thread on this topic (not sure where it is) but it has some nice responses to that knock on the door.

even though the govenor signed legislation prohibiting confiscation. i do unfortunately believe the LE in this state are more than happy to take any and all weapons regardless of what law prohibits them from doing it.

this statement is not to bash LE but a sad observation of LE and command elements attitude towards firearms possession during a natural disaster. post katrina comes to mind of that attitude.

Gryff
01-28-2008, 3:41 PM
No, you may not come inside without a warrant.

And if they push their way inside? We may posture and talk big, but when does it become legal to use force to stop them?

Again, I do not write this because I think the local LEOs or Federal agents are out to get me or my guns. I think 99.99% of them (include federal agents) are Class A people. But a lot of them will jump if their commanders tell them to jump, especially if they are not well-versed on the fine points of rights after the SHTF.

-J

grywlfbg
01-28-2008, 4:03 PM
From those Katrina vids there were typically multiple officers and in a subdivision like mine I wouldn't want to try and fight my way out of my home against LEO's. Even worse if they're heavily armed.

My reco would be to hide your weapons and ammo throughout your home. My guess is they aren't going to toss your entire house (they would probably have to go door-door to hundreds of houses per day) and if it is a major earthquake scenario I think the odds of them being able to access the DROS lists to know how many guns you have would be small.

If you don't lie very well then it may even be worth having a couple "give-away" guns.

"Oh yes, here officer, this is all I have." Out comes a .22 pistol and an SKS. "Thank you for looking out for my safety. Have a nice day officers!"

Matt C
01-28-2008, 4:22 PM
I'm not giving up a damn thing. And I don't have to fight my way out, they have to fight their way in...

From those Katrina vids there were typically multiple officers and in a subdivision like mine I wouldn't want to try and fight my way out of my home against LEO's. Even worse if they're heavily armed.

My reco would be to hide your weapons and ammo throughout your home. My guess is they aren't going to toss your entire house (they would probably have to go door-door to hundreds of houses per day) and if it is a major earthquake scenario I think the odds of them being able to access the DROS lists to know how many guns you have would be small.

If you don't lie very well then it may even be worth having a couple "give-away" guns.

"Oh yes, here officer, this is all I have." Out comes a .22 pistol and an SKS. "Thank you for looking out for my safety. Have a nice day officers!"

M1A Rifleman
01-28-2008, 4:24 PM
There were some links in a thread on Calguns I read last week regarding survivors of Katrina - good read if you can still find. IMOP, CA would be just as quick to disarm everyone in the event of an equally challenging disaster - especially if you walked-in or were forced into a prison camp - err, I mean shelter. I read another post regarding a law in CA where your property - food, water, etc can be confiscated and redistributed to others if the authorities deam you have too much for your own use - really makes you want to stockpile huh.

Yea, there were some recent state and federal laws that were design to prohibit the Katrina gun confiscation abuse by your government, but in the heat of distaster, when water and food supplies are low, when criminal gangs and or pissed citizens are on the rampage after government officials for not fixing the problems, I bet your gun rights will not be on the top of their concerns.

Buggin out to higher and less populated land may be the best. Standing and fighting to keep your food water and gun stockpiles seems like and invitation to your own disater. - My opinion for what its worth.

CCWFacts
01-28-2008, 4:24 PM
One point to add to this thread: You should have a simple video camera as part of your disaster preparedness kit. The right video footage could be enough to pay for your house to be rebuilt. We've all seen that footage from Katrina. How many other people had incidents like that, but can't do anything useful about it because they didn't record it? Probably very few, but some.

99.99% of officers will be happy to be video taped, to give documentation of the good deeds they are doing during a disaster. The 0.01% who do bad deeds, well, in the long run it is better for them to be caught out and recorded, and doing so will further improve the quality of law enforcement and disaster response.

berto
01-28-2008, 4:34 PM
You can comply or be forced to comply and then you or your heirs can win in court at some point after the fact. You get to decide if being right is worth being dead.

elSquid
01-28-2008, 4:36 PM
One point to add to this thread: You should have a simple video camera as part of your disaster preparedness kit. The right video footage could be enough to pay for your house to be rebuilt. We've all seen that footage from Katrina. How many other people had incidents like that, but can't do anything useful about it because they didn't record it? Probably very few, but some.

That's a really good idea. Time to go browse Amazon.com...

-- Michael

Matt C
01-28-2008, 4:36 PM
You get to decide if being right is worth being dead.

Who says I won't get dead anyway when the local LA gang visits my house after the LE leave? Besides, Freedom > than risk of death, IMO. BTW, the M2HB I see in my future might give me a bit of an edge...

532Fastback
01-28-2008, 4:43 PM
I had to read a book last year for Government 180 at Sac State. I forgot the name of it but it talked about how if a major earthquake happens in the Bay Area on the Hayward fault it would shut down all of California because LA gets 50% of the water from the delta and the delta's leeves is made of dirt and built on land that was created. So in a major earthquake they would liquify causing them to break and flood sea water into the freshwater and shutting down the water being sent to LA which would cause the farming that happens down there to stop over night.

CAL.BAR
01-28-2008, 4:45 PM
One point to add to this thread: You should have a simple video camera as part of your disaster preparedness kit. The right video footage could be enough to pay for your house to be rebuilt. We've all seen that footage from Katrina. How many other people had incidents like that, but can't do anything useful about it because they didn't record it? Probably very few, but some.

99.99% of officers will be happy to be video taped, to give documentation of the good deeds they are doing during a disaster. The 0.01% who do bad deeds, well, in the long run it is better for them to be caught out and recorded, and doing so will further improve the quality of law enforcement and disaster response.

You've got to be kidding! There are NO LEO's who lik(will allow themselves) to be video taped under ANY circumstances, even when "their side" is holding the camera. Cops in jails and police stations know exactly where the cameras cover and where they don't. Can you guess why?

Go up to any cop and ask if you can film him doing his job - see what response you get. Not even a bicycle beet cop would go for that.

Riodog
01-28-2008, 5:04 PM
Maybe one of our legal beagles can comment but if I remember correctly SCOTUS has already ruled that a citizen is within his rights to defend against an illegal order by any LEO and I don't remember any exceptions. Don't know what it means to you but I won't give up anything.

With the population that is here in SoCal I just can't see that happening here. The idiots in the Bay area might try (hope you guys got the guts to fight back).
I don't see it in the more rural areas of this state.

Rio

rue
01-28-2008, 5:21 PM
I wouldn't give up my guns. If anyone wanted to take them no matter who it was in that situation it would be "tango down"

CCWFacts
01-28-2008, 5:23 PM
That's a really good idea. Time to go browse Amazon.com...

Here's one that sounds perfect: rugged, waterproof, records 13 hours onto memory (no tapes to mess with or break):

http://www.cnet.com.au/camcorders/camcorders/0,239035915,339284845,00.htm

$400

Make sure to leave it on a trickle-charger of some kind. Lithium batteries lose their charge as they are stored. I'd rather defend my rights with a camcorder than with a gun, given any choice in the matter. I would have a video tape of me getting roughed up, repeating over and over, "do you have a warrant", "you are trespassing", "I do not consent to this search", "that item is private property, if you take it without my permission you are committing theft", "You are stealing my firearm; I do not consent but I do demand a receipt for my property", "am I under arrest, and if so, what is the probable cause", "you are violating my civil rights", "you are injuring me in my ____", "under what authority are you acting", "what is your name and badge number", "are you acting in your official capacity", "what law authorizes you to do this", that kind of thing.

And their searches aren't very thorough. They don't tear apart walls and lift up floor boards. If they take a visible gun, while on video tape, in an illegal manner, I could have both a video tape, and a spare firearm somewhere. That means I get to live and get a huge chunk of money to buy more guns and file gun rights lawsuits (CCW lawsuits, lawsuits against the DoJ to give me a MG permit, etc).

MudCamper
01-28-2008, 5:23 PM
Tell any LEO who want your guns that unless they have a warrant, or unless martial law has been declared, then they do not have a right to take your firearms. Print a copy of the Katrina Firearms Protections now, and keep it with you during any disaster. Show it to said LEOs.

If they still try to take your firerarms, you then have 2 options: 1) resist, 2) hand them over, demand a receipt, and when they leave go get one of your hidden backup weapons, then later when it blows over, sue the LEOs pants off

chunger
01-28-2008, 5:33 PM
It seems the best strategy for this situation is filtering down to this:

1. Deny access/ refuse illegal search
2. Document and/or have witnesses
3. Relinquish a portion of items to illegal seizure
4. Take aggressive legal actions afterwards

CCWFacts
01-28-2008, 5:36 PM
Tell any LEO who want your guns that unless they have a warrant, or unless martial law has been declared,

Does martial law allow that?

Print a copy of the Katrina Firearms Protections now, and keep it with you during any disaster. Show it to said LEOs.

That's a good idea. If they violate it, they are not acting in their official capacity so that might allow them to have personal liability. "You take my gun now, I take your house later." A good trade.

Gryff
01-28-2008, 5:57 PM
I'd rather defend my rights with a camcorder than with a gun, given any choice in the matter. I would have a video tape of me getting roughed up, repeating over and over, "do you have a warrant", "you are trespassing", "I do not consent to this search", "that item is private property, if you take it without my permission you are committing theft", "You are stealing my firearm; I do not consent but I do demand a receipt for my property", "am I under arrest, and if so, what is the probable cause", "you are violating my civil rights", "you are injuring me in my ____", "under what authority are you acting", "what is your name and badge number", "are you acting in your official capacity", "what law authorizes you to do this", that kind of thing.

You forgot, "GIVE ME BACK MY CAMERA!"

If they are going to push their way in to take your guns, you really think they are going to leave you the camera that you recorded them with? In New Orleans, they probably would have done a little Rodney King on you as your parting gift for recording them. In California, it probably is more like, "Gee, sir. I'm really sorry your camera got knocked down and stomped into little bits,...and no, that wasn't your video tape that I picked up."

One thing that gives me a little piece of mind is the fact that most of my guns are locked in an 800lb. gun safe that is bolted into our cement foundation. I chuckle at the thought that if they get inside the house and demand my guns, I can say, "They are in there, and I'm really sorry that lock is broken and I can't open it for you..."

I know they won't have the resources to come back and drill the safe open. And if they take me to jail for not cooperating, at least my wife knows how to get into the safe and is nearly as competent with my handguns as I am.

falawful
01-28-2008, 6:25 PM
In TN at least you have the right to resist unlawful arrest up to and including the use of lethal force. Furthermore you have the right to resist/use lethal force if LE uses excessive force in a lawful arrest (i.e. beating you senseless in issuing a jaywalking ticket or something). Sadly, in many ways (but some others not so much) CA isn't TN.

This wasn't bad advice:
"1. Deny access/ refuse illegal search
2. Document and/or have witnesses
3. Relinquish a portion of items to illegal seizure
4. Take aggressive legal actions afterwards"

In general, I tend to like cops as people. In the event of nuclear war however, the nuclear option is indeed viable.

It is against state and federal law to seize. I'm not too hip to martial law. Remember that's what was 'declared' in New Orleans.... by people that didn't have the authority to do so....

Corbin Dallas
01-28-2008, 7:00 PM
And if they push their way inside? We may posture and talk big, but when does it become legal to use force to stop them?

Again, I do not write this because I think the local LEOs or Federal agents are out to get me or my guns. I think 99.99% of them (include federal agents) are Class A people. But a lot of them will jump if their commanders tell them to jump, especially if they are not well-versed on the fine points of rights after the SHTF.

-J

Gryff - I think you missed the part of me behind my security door. They are not pushing anything because it is not unlocked.

When does it become legal, when they use unjustified force to enter my home without a warrant or just cause.

Also, the video camera is a great idea. You could take it one step further with a wireless webcam recording to an offsite server of your choice overseas. The rentals are about $100/year for 3GB bandwidth and 500GB storage.

dondo
01-28-2008, 7:31 PM
.....

"Oh yes, here officer, this is all I have." Out comes a .22 pistol and an SKS. "Thank you for looking out for my safety. Have a nice day officers!"

Bite your tongue dear boy.

eta34
01-28-2008, 7:38 PM
As a LEO, I can emphatically state that I, along with most of my coworkers, will never confiscate firearms from you. However, I understand that some LEO will do so as ordered. Here is my suggestion.

First, I strongly believe in my right to bear arms. In a disaster situation, one has to ask if he/she is willing to die for that right. Is one willing to take another life to defend that right?

If I am the average person who is at the business end of the illegal search, I suggest much of what has already been discussed. Ask for a warrant and refuse consent to search. Audio and video record all events if possible. If push comes to shove and they demand entry and your weapons, have your standard Big 5 Mosin on hand for confiscation. Sue the pants off of the department and individual officers later.

So, is this method simply giving up my rights? At first, absolutely. In the big picture, how will violently resisting help you out? You will likely be killed by responding officers. If not, you will surely go to jail for unjustified homicide (not that I agree, but this is the reality) if you shoot the offending officer(s).

I believe the lawsuit is the way to go. Just my humble opinion.

G17GUY
01-28-2008, 7:54 PM
They are discussing this on NRANEWS.com right now

http://www.nranews.com/nranews.aspx

Matt C
01-28-2008, 7:56 PM
You will likely be killed by responding officers.
Anything is possible I suppose...

If not, you will surely go to jail for unjustified homicide (not that I agree, but this is the reality) if you shoot the offending officer(s).


California Penal Code states that homicide is justifiable: “When resisting any attempt to murder any person, or to commit a felony, or to do some great bodily injury upon any person.” Last time I checked burglary is a felony. It is also codified that a person is assumed to be in fear for their life when another forcibly enters their home. If there is enough coordination/facilities available in the post disaster environment I suppose a person might end up in jail through trial if a DA took up the case.

eta34
01-28-2008, 8:18 PM
California Penal Code states that homicide is justifiable: “When resisting any attempt to murder any person, or to commit a felony, or to do some great bodily injury upon any person.” Last time I checked burglary is a felony. It is also codified that a person is assumed to be in fear for their life when another forcibly enters their home. If there is enough coordination/facilities available in the post disaster environment I suppose a person might end up in jail through trial if a DA took up the case.

In theory, you are correct. However, I believe in practice, the DA and liberal media will portray you as a "gun nut" and "loose cannon" rather than a defender of the Constitution. I agree 100% that one would be justified in defending his/her castle, but I don't believe he/she would escape prosecution.

Matt C
01-28-2008, 8:22 PM
In theory, you are correct. However, I believe in practice, the DA and liberal media will portray you as a "gun nut" and "loose cannon" rather than a defender of the Constitution. I agree 100% that one would be justified in defending his/her castle, but I don't believe he/she would escape prosecution.

Prosecution is one thing, you don't need to commit any crimes at all to get prosecuted. Conviction is another matter entirely. I've already been portrayed as a "gun nut" by the DAs and liberal media, it would not make much difference if they did it again. Yeah, I might be paying off the legal bill for the next ten years, but I'm pretty damn sure mine would be the last house they try to unlawfully seize firearms from. If leaving law abiding citizens armed in an emergency saved a single homeowner from being killed for his supplies or one college student from being raped by gang members, it would be very much worth it.

Gryff
01-28-2008, 8:45 PM
I believe the lawsuit is the way to go.

Do you really think a lawsuit will protect my family during looting or rioting?

Like I said, this is a Lose-Lose situation for an average American citizen. I have a Constitutional right to be armed in my home. Unfortunately, I also have the right to Die-By-SWAT if I oppose an illegal attempt to deny me my Constitutional right at a time when my family's safety is at risk (not to mention the unimaginable concept of taking up arms against decent, hard-working cops).

This isn't about defending intangible rights or some pro-Ruby Ridge thing. This is about protecting my family after society breaks down in my little part of the world and the dirtbags start crawling out from under their rocks.

-Jim

Outlaw Josey Wales
01-28-2008, 9:15 PM
This is about protecting my family after society breaks down in my little part of the world and the dirtbags start crawling out from under their rocks.

-Jim

Read it and weep......:mad:

Reginald Denny beating
At approximately 6:45 p.m., Reginald Denny, a white truck driver stopped at a traffic light at the intersection of Florence and South Normandie Avenues, was dragged from his vehicle and severely beaten by a mob of black local residents as news helicopters hovered above, recording every blow, including a concrete fragment connecting with Denny's temple and a cinder block thrown at his head as he lay unconscious in the street. The police never appeared, having been ordered to withdraw for their own safety, although several assailants were later arrested and one sent to prison. Instead, Denny was rescued, not by police officers, but by unarmed civilian black neighbors who, seeing the assault live on television, rushed to the scene. Denny would recover after brain surgery. Although several Asian and Latino motorists were brutally beaten by the same mob, due to the live coverage he remains the best-known victim of the riots.


Fidel Lopez beating
At the same intersection, just minutes after Denny was rescued, another beating was captured on video tape. Fidel Lopez, a self-employed construction worker and Guatemalan immigrant, was ripped from his truck and robbed of nearly $2,000. A rioter smashed his forehead open with a car stereo as another rioter attempted to slice his ear off. After Lopez lost consciousness, the crowd spray painted his chest, torso and genitals black. Lopez survived the attack, after extensive surgery to reattach his partially severed ear and months of recovery.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Los_Angeles_Riots

eta34
01-28-2008, 9:44 PM
Which is why I proposed giving up the Mosin while keeping the good stuff hidden. It is certainly a lose-lose situation. You have to decide what you want to do. Do you want to go down in a firefight and possibly die? Do you want to kill another? I believe you would be completely justified in defending your home with force, as I stated earlier.

However, in my opinion, it is better to give up a crappy gun and save my life, keep the good stuff, and sue later. Again, only my opinion.

JarenC81
01-28-2008, 9:50 PM
(not to mention the unimaginable concept of taking up arms against decent, hard-working cops).
You need to start looking at cops as being human and therefore by definition having free-will. He can be ordered to do something but ultimately he chooses to do so, therefore he takes responsibility for that choice and he won't have the benefit of his department and written orders to rely on when he has to justify that choice to his maker. A man is just that, a man, nothing more nothing less and no tin star pinned to his chest will make him an angel.

This is about protecting my family after society breaks down in my little part of the world and the dirtbags start crawling out from under their rocks.
Thats right, and no one should ever have to ask permission to do just that. The fact that you even entertained this thought shows how interested you are in making sure that society doesn't fall apart. If you can make this judgment so can a cop. I firmly believe that most cops will refuse to disarm you, but we've seen examples to the contrary. Those men haven't earned your hesitation. I think your moral compass is tuned just right.

odysseus
01-28-2008, 10:02 PM
I mostly agree with this. For the most part, avoid contact if you can, and if you can't, comply like this.

Anyone recall the footage during Katrina of the roving bands of National Guard units disarming people going door to door (mind you in nice, dry, and non impacted areas "strangely")? What are you going to do? Take on a National Guard crew with their m16's? You think they care about "warrants" in a state of emergency? You think the law will be on your side if you survived? I say stay low and backfield, and be a little smart and creative.

As a LEO, I can emphatically state that I, along with most of my coworkers, will never confiscate firearms from you. However, I understand that some LEO will do so as ordered. Here is my suggestion.

First, I strongly believe in my right to bear arms. In a disaster situation, one has to ask if he/she is willing to die for that right. Is one willing to take another life to defend that right?

If I am the average person who is at the business end of the illegal search, I suggest much of what has already been discussed. Ask for a warrant and refuse consent to search. Audio and video record all events if possible. If push comes to shove and they demand entry and your weapons, have your standard Big 5 Mosin on hand for confiscation. Sue the pants off of the department and individual officers later.

So, is this method simply giving up my rights? At first, absolutely. In the big picture, how will violently resisting help you out? You will likely be killed by responding officers. If not, you will surely go to jail for unjustified homicide (not that I agree, but this is the reality) if you shoot the offending officer(s).

I believe the lawsuit is the way to go. Just my humble opinion.

BillCA
01-28-2008, 10:30 PM
Much ado about nothing?

First of all, when we get a major quake (7.6 or larger), in the first week, I think police and emergency services will be far too busy to do any sort of searches. Even with emergency generators and plenty of fuel, telecom lines to Sac will be down in the affected area so many kinds of "records checks" will be impossible or long delayed.

I doubt cops will be able to generate lists of who owns what guns and have the manpower to start knocking on doors. If they do, there will be serious questions about the use of emergency manpower for that job as compared to, say, getting food and water to people or aiding the injured.

I'm not sure if police can force you to evacuate your home, even if it may get flooded or that toxic cloud will blow your way. If they knock on the door, I'd probably say "Uh, thanks. Let me get my meds, grab the cat and some clothes and I'll get out of here." then close the door as if I'm going to hurry out of there.

The two biggest areas of concern, in my mind, would be the arrival of out-of-state LEOs and military units who aren't familiar with CA laws (like what happened in NOLA) and the second is the declaration of Martial Law.

Under Martial Law all sorts of restrictions can be applied and our rights trampled easily. I suspect that in that case, it's best to not be seen in public with firearms. Keeping a low profile would be key.

Gryff
01-28-2008, 10:31 PM
Which is why I proposed giving up the Mosin while keeping the good stuff hidden. It is certainly a lose-lose situation. You have to decide what you want to do. Do you want to go down in a firefight and possibly die? Do you want to kill another? I believe you would be completely justified in defending your home with force, as I stated earlier.

However, in my opinion, it is better to give up a crappy gun and save my life, keep the good stuff, and sue later. Again, only my opinion.

Agreed. I've got mine picked out...

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=90354752

:D

odysseus
01-28-2008, 10:55 PM
I doubt cops will be able to generate lists of who owns what guns and have the manpower to start knocking on doors. If they do, there will be serious questions about the use of emergency manpower for that job as compared to, say, getting food and water to people or aiding the injured.

Many people who's weapons were confiscated illegally, they were subjects of an organized door-to-door confiscation. No one knew or cared if you had any firearms, just that you give them up if you did. Also, talking to them about use of manpower would probably aggravate the situation. They don't care, from what we saw in Katrina.

I'm not sure if police can force you to evacuate your home, even if it may get flooded or that toxic cloud will blow your way.

My understanding is they most certainly can if it is ordered under a state of emergency. Not complying has gotten people forcefully removed before. I don't have facts\figures, only recollections from disasters in the past.

The two biggest areas of concern, in my mind, would be the arrival of out-of-state LEOs and military units who aren't familiar with CA laws (like what happened in NOLA) and the second is the declaration of Martial Law.

You betcha, and you could be stuffed into a "dome" or camp, of course without your personal protection. Or left alone in the wild like that. :rolleyes:

MudCamper
01-28-2008, 11:09 PM
For those that think that law enforcement or other authorities won't try to take your guns, or that they won't try to force you to evacuate, read these accounts:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=154894
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=156211

chunger
01-29-2008, 12:14 AM
Everyone has to make their own moral and ethical pre-determinations as to where the line is.

I tend to draw the line MUCH further back when it comes to hard-working emergency response workers however mis-guided their actions are. I'd rather choose to be a bit creative and resourceful than escalate against my mis-guided LEO friends. This thread is making me re-think and expand my disaster kit to include adequate "deeply hidden" hard-to-access resources.

A couple thousand dollars would probably go a long way towards putting away some high-quality, mission-suitable firearms for the family w/ maybe some spares for my trained friends. Spending a couple thousand dollars (actually fun) on the front end sure beats endangering my own life and the lives of emergency response teams.

To me, the wise thing is to de-escalate as much as possible during the crisis while still retaining your capacity to look after yourself and your family.

After the crisis passes, all gloves are off. That is where you will have the legal high ground to heap cruel amounts of financial pain on those who have violated your rights. I am sure with the proper case, you would have the benefit of significant reinforcements in your endeavor by sympathetic gun-owning community. If your legal action is successful, the upper LEO authorities will not soon forget and as in the case of Katrina, you may be able to leverage your case to influence national policy.

So, I guess you can break it down into 3 phases:

Pre-Crisis:
Purchase and creatively store an adequate emergency supply. This may involve buying something pricey that you will not have access to for the most part for "playing with" after it has been function verified and sighted in.

During crisis:
De-escalate and work to build your concrete case. Know your rights and expose the violations. Inform LEO so they and your witnesses/recording devices see that the LEO is making deliberate, informed violations to penal code.

Post crisis:
Recover stolen property. Develop and present your legal case. Cash out if possible, but spend money on the legal offensive instead of on the legal defensive.

If I adopt this strategy, I can win on all accounts.
1. I support gun business
2. I reduce my exposure to legal risk
3. I have a change to leverage a bad disaster situation for financial gain
4. All of this while retaining a high level of security for my family.

I think in a high stress situation, it's best to maintain a "humble" sheeple demeanor so as not to raise red flags. With a proper fall-back plan, you will not have to make your heroic and symbolic last stand for freedom and the rights of all americans by foolishly shooting it out with LEO (even if legally and morally justified). Strategically here, they have backup and you do not and both of your lives are at risk. So, tactically retreat to your next defensible position.

But, you can choose the time, place, and context for your heroic stand. . . in the court room. . . for freedom and the rights of all americans. Strategically here, you have backup and they do not especially if your case is overwhelmingly strong and the department is trying distance themselves from the perpetrator. Your life is not at risk, but theirs is. This is a better place to make your fight.

Twisted_Pear
01-29-2008, 12:27 AM
I know that in CA "mandatory evacuation" does not mean LE can demand and then forcibly remove you from your property. You have the ability to stay put and they can do nothing about it. Now if you leave and go pass any checkpoint you are stuck outside of it (Case in point during San Diego wildfires last year).

In any worse situation like severe earthquake, biological or nuclear I doubt the situation would be any different. Personally, from working in the radio communications field, I think coordination in the Bay Area would be so f'd up we shouldn't have to worry about anything as public safety will have more than enough to do. If all else fails, DON'T answer the door!

CCWFacts
01-29-2008, 5:15 AM
Which is why I proposed giving up the Mosin while keeping the good stuff hidden.

However, in my opinion, it is better to give up a crappy gun and save my life, keep the good stuff, and sue later. Again, only my opinion.

Exactly! They are in a hurry. These are not thorough searches. Give them (under protest, and while being video taped) a gun that's not needed.

Come on, how many people here own just one gun? And if you do own one gun, maybe it's time to drop $100 on a Mosin or $200 on used shotty, and have a backup.

And btw, a Mosin at $100 may not look like much but it is an effective self-defense tool, perfectly able to make brave looters change their minds. In fact there are a whole lot of guns in the $100 to $200 range which are very effective and capable. Enfields, some Mausers, Mosins, 22 cal rifles, and my favorite, the Schmidt Rubin. And they look cool!

The situation that is much more dangerous than illegal gun confiscation ("yes sir, this Mosin is all I have! please don't take it!") is forced evacuation. If your house is safe and intact after an earthquake, being forcibly relocated could be a fatal situation, as we can see from what happened in the Superdome.

grywlfbg
01-29-2008, 7:43 AM
Bite your tongue dear boy.

Sorry, I was trying to think of a cheap gun to give away. As eta34 mentioned, a Mosin would be a better choice.

Ironchef
01-29-2008, 8:10 AM
My SHTF plan:

Live near you guys who will die for the 2a, and by the time the cops get to my house, they'll realize how dangerous their bogus confiscations are and quit before I soil myself! :)

Actually, I have no intention of being violent. If I'm still sitting in my condo by the time something like this happens (would be probably a week into a situation after violence and robbery is rampant), and if I hadn't high tailed it out of there (camp on Mt. Diablo anyone? or drive out of state if possible?), if I'm still sitting at home waiting out the disaster and if I still hadn't hidden my primary gun, then yes, I'd probably deserve being robbed by LE or military gun grabbers..and I'd let them find them. But I would NOT put my wife and 3 little kids at risk in anyway at their hands. If I'm taken away from them because I failed to provide them my registered primary weapon, then I've failed at protecting my family...so that hidden primary weapon wouldn't stay hidden long.

And of course I'd be refusing the search and seizure from the first knock or illegal entry. Then I'd just follow them where they went since they have my guns and are the only means to guarantee my safety. what are they gonna do, shoot me for hidding near them for my own safety? lol

I do have a few months of food and water and many other previsions for such an incident. I'm also part of the FEMA derived RACES element of my local SO's OES department so I'll be in touch with anyone I want during an event over radio or telephone even if telephone is down. It pays to be a HAM.


Sorry, I was trying to think of a cheap gun to give away. As eta34 mentioned, a Mosin would be a better choice.
Yep, I'll give them my 91/30, but i'm keeping the bayonet.

Matt C
01-29-2008, 8:28 AM
I think in a high stress situation, it's best to maintain a "humble" sheeple demeanor so as not to raise red flags. With a proper fall-back plan, you will not have to make your heroic and symbolic last stand for freedom and the rights of all americans by foolishly shooting it out with LEO (even if legally and morally justified). Strategically here, they have backup and you do not and both of your lives are at risk. So, tactically retreat to your next defensible position.


You are entitled to you opinion, I'll just bite my tongue here...

Ironchef
01-29-2008, 8:35 AM
You are entitled to you opinion, I'll just bite my tongue here...

Sounds like you don't have kids yet, eh? I know if I didn't have a pregnant wife and 3 little kids, I'd probably be a bit more aggressive/assertive and I'd probably resist every inch of the way, possibly even "defending" myself..which I could do lawfully.

Sniper3142
01-29-2008, 9:42 AM
I totally agree with Blackwater OPS on this topic!

I didn't spend over a decade in the Marine Corps to act like a sheep or have the rights I fought to protect trampled on.

The statement: "From my cold dead hands" from Mr. Heston comes to mind. Of course, another statement also comes to mind...

"I will not go down easy and I will not go down alone". John Sheridan, Babylon 5

I'm single, 6'1" @ 215lbs and I've NEVER been confused for a sheep.

:mad:

I have and will FIGHT to protect my person, my property, and my RIGHTS against ANYONE trying to illegally deprive me of them.

Diabolus
01-29-2008, 10:26 AM
If the disaster was at a level of massive causalities and wide-spread destruction (Katrina), anyone in an enforcement capacity that is roaming the streets and disarming law abiding citizens of their weapons are the types of individuals that are looking for something to happen and they would have no hesitation to kill you. They may be better armed than you, but most importantly, there would be many more of them.

I say act dumb and survive.

Jicko
01-29-2008, 10:38 AM
For those San Diego people who get to evaculate to the shelters during the most recent wild fires, what did you do with your firearms? Did you bring at least a sidearms with you? If so, did they "search" you before allowing you to enter the shelters? Even if you are not conceal carrying, ie. having a pistol in a locked container, did they allow that?

MudCamper
01-29-2008, 10:50 AM
Sounds like you don't have kids yet, eh? I know if I didn't have a pregnant wife and 3 little kids, I'd probably be a bit more aggressive/assertive and I'd probably resist every inch of the way, possibly even "defending" myself..which I could do lawfully.

Bingo!

SecondAmendmentgirl
01-29-2008, 10:51 AM
The law specifically goes out of it's way to underscore how there is no case for shooting a police officer.

Even the 5th circuit said officers don't have to yell or make their "search warrent" and "police" announcement at the door heard nor have to wait for more than 30 seconds before entering, whether they're heard or not.

A police officer would have to be doing something not in the performance of their duties to be out of the scope of qualified immunity. That's why alot of guys, including a close friend who was on the Fremont PD, are attracted to the power of LE work.

So it would be a major life decision to resist LE under any circumstance. It sucks and I think confiscation would be wrong but no court would treat a person who was charged with shooting at police officers to protect their consitutional right well.

Hell, I got yelled at by a former CHP officer turned judge for having some roses that were given to me just before I entered the courtroom and told how I inappropriate, outrageous and scummy I was for having flowers in my hand.

Can you imagine being charged with shooting a police officer?

California Penal Code states that homicide is justifiable: “When resisting any attempt to murder any person, or to commit a felony, or to do some great bodily injury upon any person.” Last time I checked burglary is a felony. It is also codified that a person is assumed to be in fear for their life when another forcibly enters their home. If there is enough coordination/facilities available in the post disaster environment I suppose a person might end up in jail through trial if a DA took up the case.

Gryff
01-29-2008, 11:14 AM
A police officer would have to be doing something not in the performance of their duties to be out of the scope of qualified immunity.

Ah, there's the rub. Are illegal searches outside of the "performance of their duties?" At what point do illegal activities step over that line? If decided by the individual LEO? If ordered by a superior?

Armed Forces personnel are required to disobey an illegal order. What about LEOs? If they obey an illegal order, are they still performing their duties?

Can you imagine being charged with shooting a police officer?

True. Worse would be having my wife raped and stabbed to death or my 9-year-old son's head caved with a baseball bat.

I still agree with the idea to lie to, cheat, bribe, blackmail or BS the Seizure Officer/Team rather than start a firefight. One of the things on my To Do list is to add a laminated copy of AB 1645 to my disaster box.

And I know it's paranoid, but I have this image in my head...infrastructure is down, phone lines not working...Feinstein and Boxer taking turns running the mimeograph machine cranking out copies of the CA firearms registration list for hand-delivery to law enforcement officials (Perata and Pelosi waiting to help out)... :D

-Jim

Ironchef
01-29-2008, 11:19 AM
I confused forums. THe beretta forum I visit had this poll I thought was on Calguns... This is a good read for yet more ideas on how to respond to military or LE confiscating things...

http://www.berettaforum.net/vb/showthread.php?t=24655

Diabolus
01-29-2008, 11:26 AM
Fighting to the death to keep your guns undermines the whole "survival mindset" thing.

Hopi
01-29-2008, 11:43 AM
Fighting to the death to keep your guns undermines the whole "survival mindset" thing.

Unless you feel that the forfeiture of your guns and the implied incremental loss of your rights will lead you to a more dangerous fate.

The Warsaw Ghetto is a great example. 99% of those folks couldn't stomach the reality of what was happening and they refused to address their lack of freedoms/rights. Many folks, like a lot of us on this board, are unwilling to believe that something like that can happen, until it is too late.

Is the Nazi atrocity in Poland a fair parallel to draw against a natural disaster? Probably not directly, but this questioning of the incremental forfeitures of our freedom is very much in line.

SecondAmendmentgirl
01-29-2008, 12:04 PM
Well, thank goodness the Govenator signed the natural disaster bill
which was a major tradeoff for the lead and micro stamping laws but I'm just saying L/E correctly counts on a court system that will back them in all but the most horrendous abuse of power, whether legal or illegal and may'be I'm a stereotypical Asian but non-confrontation is a the route I'd opt for. Just look at the tone by some members participating in this thread, do you think anything but prostrating yourself and begging for mercy will suffice?

This state does not encourage nor generally condone self-suffiency and while I admire your concern for your family and rights, if confronted with demands, I don't even think a laminated copy of a Executive order would deter people who would come to your door in the first place.

Fortunately, even in my circumspect outlook, not all the people in the LE community are lock step with a us against them mentality and follow any directives legal or otherwise like zombies. It would be luck of the draw, which kind of officers or agents you came across and I think it's easier to fight for your rights in court and with a free press than try a Ruby Ridge stand.

Even with the awful 9th circuit we're stuck with. Which by the way made a decision that allows police to enter a home without a warrent and without having to conduct a child welfare check, as long as they had no prior intent to arrest before entering. Your home is no longer your castle and that means your property is open to inspection.

Ah, there's the rub. Are illegal searches outside of the "performance of their duties?" At what point do illegal activities step over that line? If decided by the individual LEO? If ordered by a superior?

Armed Forces personnel are required to disobey an illegal order. What about LEOs? If they obey an illegal order, are they still performing their duties?



True. Worse would be having my wife raped and stabbed to death or my 9-year-old son's head caved with a baseball bat.

I still agree with the idea to lie to, cheat, bribe, blackmail or BS the Seizure Officer/Team rather than start a firefight. One of the things on my To Do list is to add a laminated copy of AB 1645 to my disaster box.

And I know it's paranoid, but I have this image in my head...infrastructure is down, phone lines not working...Feinstein and Boxer taking turns running the mimeograph machine cranking out copies of the CA firearms registration list for hand-delivery to law enforcement officials (Perata and Pelosi waiting to help out)... :D

-Jim

Matt C
01-29-2008, 12:31 PM
Sounds like you don't have kids yet, eh? I know if I didn't have a pregnant wife and 3 little kids, I'd probably be a bit more aggressive/assertive and I'd probably resist every inch of the way, possibly even "defending" myself..which I could do lawfully.

If I was in your situation I would make the call differently as well, I'm sure. For the time being though, I'll second Sniper3142, I'm not going down easy because some scumbag with a badge thinks he is above the law.

What if you were outnumbered by gang bangers outside, would you still give in? It's basically the same thing.

Spaceghost
01-29-2008, 12:43 PM
For the most part I agree with you. Getting into a firefight with police or even the national guard is a lose lose situation. So using trickery and out right lying to protect your stash is of the highest priority. Trying to reason with a police officer doing their job, if they think it is right, is pointless. You think you can plead your case better and more convincingly then every other person he has arrested before? What did the other people say before they handed over their firearms? You sure you can top their performance? Might as well tell a Great White Shark not to bite you as it circles. However, taking something from you that you don't have is impossible.

"I would turn all my firearms officer, but they are at my buddies house. My wife and I are about to get divorced and my lawyer said she would get a TRO on me and I would have to turn over my guns. To prevent this, I asked a friend to help me out. He came over yesterday, I am legally lending them to him, today we were supposed to meet at (insert gunshop) to sell them all to him for a dollar. He is supposed to sell them back to me for a buck when all this mess was over."

Backed up with an empty safe and a couple boxes of ammo in it still, the cheap crap of course, this should be convincing with a little help from the misses. "I should of left you last month you A-hole! I would be with my parents in Florida instead of here!" Add a little, "You thought I was going to get a TRO? What kind of person do you think I am?" Or maybe, "I always hated your guns you jerk, I wish they were here so this guy could take them! Can we eat or drink your precious guns dip****? What good are they?"

But if they do find them, you are put in the worst position possible. Kill some one that is just doing what they are told them to do? That really isn't a good solution if you want to live. Ya, you might get one or two officers, but the rest will shoot you and your whole family. It would suck to have the National Guard open up on your house with a couple of M249s. Kind of against your main objective of protecting your loved ones, isn't it?

I guess the decision would be based on, is this a temporary problem or is it TEOTWAKI? If it is the great native American word, then you are really in trouble. Because there is no more U.S. or sworn officers or anything. Back to the earliest roots of mankind. Small family units trying to band together for mutual protection. Instead of clubs, the enemy will have state of the art technology and fire power. Almost all of us would not last long in that scenario anyways....






Well, thank goodness the Govenator signed the natural disaster bill
which was a major tradeoff for the lead and micro stamping laws but I'm just saying L/E correctly counts on a court system that will back them in all but the most horrendous abuse of power, whether legal or illegal and may'be I'm a stereotypical Asian but non-confrontation is a the route I'd opt for. Just look at the tone by some members participating in this thread, do you think anything but prostrating yourself and begging for mercy will suffice?

This state does not encourage nor generally condone self-suffiency and while I admire your concern for your family and rights, if confronted with demands, I don't even think a laminated copy of a Executive order would deter people who would come to your door in the first place.

Fortunately, even in my circumspect outlook, not all the people in the LE community are lock step with a us against them mentality and follow any directives legal or otherwise like zombies. It would be luck of the draw, which kind of officers or agents you came across and I think it's easier to fight for your rights in court and with a free press than try a Ruby Ridge stand.

Even with the awful 9th circuit we're stuck with. Which by the way made a decision that allows police to enter a home without a warrent and without having to conduct a child welfare check, as long as they had no prior intent to arrest before entering. Your home is no longer your castle and that means your property is open to inspection.

SecondAmendmentgirl
01-29-2008, 12:52 PM
I've seen alot of people mention the National Guard but in the Katrina footage I only saw police officers entering the houses and confronting people in cars and on boats. I'm just curious if I missed something?

I'm only going by the vidoes featured on youtube that I saw last year.
Myself, I was shocked at how the old lady was treated and although she was holding that pistol too casually for my sensibility, I'm surprised those officers weren't ashamed of themselves.

odysseus
01-29-2008, 12:58 PM
I've seen alot of people mention the National Guard but in the Katrina footage I only saw police officers entering the houses and confronting people in cars and on boats. I'm just curious if I missed something?

Yes, I mentioned it. I might have a copy somewhere in my server archives of a clip, but yes NG was deployed as usual. Then groups got called in to help on the confiscations. The reporter was interviewing one of the NG and basically the soldier was saying he didn't think he would be doing this kind of work when he signed on, but basically had to shrug his shoulders about it.

Hopi
01-29-2008, 1:00 PM
I've seen alot of people mention the National Guard but in the Katrina footage I only saw police officers entering the houses and confronting people in cars and on boats. I'm just curious if I missed something?

I'm only going by the vidoes featured on youtube that I saw last year.
Myself, I was shocked at how the old lady was treated and although she was holding that pistol too casually for my sensibility, I'm surprised those officers weren't ashamed of themselves.

Taken from http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0902/p02s01-usmi.html

In all, some 21,000 National Guard troops are either on duty along the Gulf Coast or will be deployed there by the weekend - with 18,000 of those in Louisiana and Mississippi alone. To these, the Pentagon has added 7,000 active-duty soldiers, mostly from the Navy, making the response to Katrina the largest relief effort ever for the United States military.

Ironchef
01-29-2008, 1:03 PM
If I was in your situation I would make the call differently as well, I'm sure. For the time being though, I'll second Sniper3142, I'm not going down easy because some scumbag with a badge thinks he is above the law.

What if you were outnumbered by gang bangers outside, would you still give in? It's basically the same thing.

If there were gang bangers outside (not PD) then there'd be a shoot out. Difference is, if I get shot by a cop as I'm defending my 2a rights, I'm in a lose/lose. If I get shot by a gang banger, i'm in a lose/win! :)

But none of this matters since I'm not gonna be a sitting duck if I can help it. I"ll be able to hear any radio chatter and I'll be able to communicate in any condition and I'll have moved out of the way if such a thing were happening if I didn't already get out of the incident zone. Frankly, if the Hayward fault destroys the bay area, I'm pretty much going to do my job locally (church member accounting, CERT functions, RACES functions) if possible, then if it's deteriorating further (where a gun grab might happen), I'd already be safely stowed or on my way to Montana with my family. But that's just the plan...anything could happen.

AaronHorrocks
01-29-2008, 1:15 PM
But if they do find them, you are put in the worst position possible. Kill some one that is just doing what they are told them to do? That really isn't a good solution if you want to live. Ya, you might get one or two officers, but the rest will shoot you and your whole family. It would suck to have the National Guard open up on your house with a couple of M249s. Kind of against your main objective of protecting your loved ones, isn't it?

I guess the decision would be based on, is this a temporary problem or is it TEOTWAKI? If it is the great native American word, then you are really in trouble. Because there is no more U.S. or sworn officers or anything. Back to the earliest roots of mankind. Small family units trying to band together for mutual protection. Instead of clubs, the enemy will have state of the art technology and fire power. Almost all of us would not last long in that scenario anyways....

I have stockpiles of rations and water and ammo. I can last a very long time.
And as for an armed forced entry... It doesn't matter if it's a gang of hoods looking to rape and rob, or a gang in uniform looking to beat and rob (confiscate, whatever). They're threating my life, liberty, and property. They're going to end up on the loosing team. I have more firepower than any local law enforcement has.

Spaceghost
01-29-2008, 1:17 PM
Yes and No. Gang members will be no where near as tough of an adversary as police or possibly even military units. Trading shots with a couple of retards that can't even aim their handguns and will probably run seeking easier victims after one of them gets hit is not the same as engaging targets with body armor, training, and serious hardware. Most of all, they will be determined to take you out.

What you are talking about is going to the after life in a hail of bullets. If you have ones you have to look after, that really isn't a good solution. On the other hand, it will be a good death.


If I was in your situation I would make the call differently as well, I'm sure. For the time being though, I'll second Sniper3142, I'm not going down easy because some scumbag with a badge thinks he is above the law.

What if you were outnumbered by gang bangers outside, would you still give in? It's basically the same thing.

BillCA
01-29-2008, 2:30 PM
From the California OES guide (http://www.oes.ca.gov/Operational/OESHome.nsf/PDF/LegalGuidelinesforControllingMovement/$file/Evacuation.pdf)to restricting movement of people and property;

V. EVACUATIONS
For the purpose of this guideline, an evacuation is considered a control on the movement of people and their property. An evacuation may be a voluntary evacuation, where the governing body recommends but does not require the evacuation of an area. Alternately, an evacuation may be mandatory, where the governing body determines that under its police power it can require the citizens of an area to leave that area in order to protect life, safety, or the general welfare of the population during an emergency. In either event, an evacuation is best ordered pursuant to either statutory authority or the Emergency Services Act.

Penal Code § 409.5
Section 409.5 provides that specified law enforcement officers may close or restrict access to an area in the event of a disaster. This is the most common method used to initially order an evacuation, and is usually used prior to a resolution by the local governing body.

Penal Code §409.6
Penal Code Section 409.6 provides law enforcement officers with the same powers as allowed under § 409.5, however, § 409.6 expressly allows the use of reasonable force to remove an unauthorized person from a closed avalanche area.

Issues
Instead of forcibly removing persons from an area ordered evacuated, many jurisdictions merely warn the person and either have them sign a release of liability or fully document the notice given and the citizen’s refusal to leave. There are potential problems with this method, such as questions of whether “duress” could be construed when a citizen signs the release under emergency conditions, and whether a mere waiver is adequate to relieve the governing body of its obligation under the police powers of the state.


Alternative
An alternative to the use of a signed waiver would be to
have an officer order an evacuation. This would permit
the officer to arrest that person under Penal Code § 148
or § 148.2.

Another Alternative
Occasionally a person may refuse to evacuate an area, and may advise others to do the same. Under some circumstances, that person may be subject to arrest for violation of criminal statutes such as child endangerment, cruelty to animals, suicide, and others.


Q. WHAT ARE THE MEANS FOR IMPOSING A MANDATORY EVACUATION?

A. There are four different means for imposing a mandatory evacuation.

Penal Code § 409.5
Penal Code section 409.5 authorizes officers of the highway patrol, police departments, marshal’s office or sheriff’s office and certain other statutorily designated law enforcement officers to close an area whenever there is a menace to public health or safety. Although section 409.5 is often utilized during emergencies, it is not


clear whether it authorizes law enforcement to remove persons who were within the area prior to its closure. Further, only those officers specifically named in the statute may enforce it.

Penal Code§ 409.6
Penal Code section 409.6 authorizes officers of the highway patrol, police departments, marshal’s office or sheriff’s office and certain other statutorily designated law enforcement officers to close an area whenever there is a menace to public health or safety caused by an
avalanche or the potential for an avalanche. Section 409.6 expressly provides for the use of reasonable force to remove persons from an area that has been ordered closed pursuant to section 409.6.

State of local emergency
Even though a local governing body has inherent policy powers to protect the health and safety of its people, Government Code § 8558(c) and § 8630 authorize the local governing body to proclaim a “state of local emergency” pursuant to the Emergency Services Act.
When a “state of local emergency” has been proclaimed, the local governing body may issue orders and regulations “necessary to provide for the protection of life and property.” An order for mandatory evacuation would be authorized under that section. Failure to comply with such an order is a misdemeanor providing imprisonment for up to six months and/or a fine of up to $1,000. The advantage of this approach is that local control and coordination are maintained.

grywlfbg
01-29-2008, 2:51 PM
If I was in your situation I would make the call differently as well, I'm sure. For the time being though, I'll second Sniper3142, I'm not going down easy because some scumbag with a badge thinks he is above the law.

What if you were outnumbered by gang bangers outside, would you still give in? It's basically the same thing.

Like Spaceghost said, it's definitely not the same thing. Taking on a group of thieves is much more straightforward than an NG or heavy LEO unit.

NG (or LEO) units can call in fun things like helicopters and they're equipped with other fun things like tear gas (or in the NG's case, grenades). Just because you can throw live grenades back at your enemy in Call of Duty 4 doesn't make it a good idea in real life.

Thieves will most likely flee when they learn you're not "easy prey". NG or LEO will continue to escalate as you mount your defense.

Don't get me wrong, I'm really glad that you and Sniper3142 will steadfastly defend our rights - if I was in your situation I would do the same. But I have a family to protect so I'll lie and cheat my way out as I'm not very useful to them if I'm dead. Live to fight another day.....

AaronHorrocks
01-29-2008, 2:52 PM
No amount of body armor, or training, can stand up to a beltfed fifty caliber firearm.

No one forces there way into my home. :mad:

Ironchef
01-29-2008, 2:54 PM
No amount of body armor, or training, can stand up to a beltfed fifty caliber firearm.

No one forces there way into my home. :mad:

As a few cans of tear gas come bouncing in through your window...followed by a flash bang and a loud roar [poof].

KenpoProfessor
01-29-2008, 3:05 PM
Like Spaceghost said, it's definitely not the same thing. Taking on a group of thieves is much more straightforward than an NG or heavy LEO unit.

NG (or LEO) units can call in fun things like helicopters and they're equipped with other fun things like tear gas (or in the NG's case, grenades). Just because you can throw live grenades back at your enemy in Call of Duty 4 doesn't make it a good idea in real life.

Thieves will most likely flee when they learn you're not "easy prey". NG or LEO will continue to escalate as you mount your defense.

Don't get me wrong, I'm really glad that you and Sniper3142 will steadfastly defend our rights - if I was in your situation I would do the same. But I have a family to protect so I'll lie and cheat my way out as I'm not very useful to them if I'm dead. Live to fight another day.....

Then you will suffer the life of a slave with your wife and children. If I had children, I would want them to know I died defending what I swore to protect at all costs, against enemies foreign and domestic. I would hope they would be the next generation of patriots.

I would also see you as a liability, to turn someone in to save the little liberty you have.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

Diabolus
01-29-2008, 3:44 PM
Then you will suffer the life of a slave with your wife and children. If I had children, I would want them to know I died defending what I swore to protect at all costs, against enemies foreign and domestic. I would hope they would be the next generation of patriots.

I would also see you as a liability, to turn someone in to save the little liberty you have.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde


No middle ground with Kenpo... you're either with us or against us :D

grywlfbg
01-29-2008, 3:47 PM
Then you will suffer the life of a slave with your wife and children. If I had children, I would want them to know I died defending what I swore to protect at all costs, against enemies foreign and domestic. I would hope they would be the next generation of patriots.

I would also see you as a liability, to turn someone in to save the little liberty you have.

Wow. This coming from someone who gave up the fight in Cali and moved away. You've been on this board long enough to know that what happens here eventually spreads over the rest of the country. So what happened to standing up and fighting? Oh, well it was more convenient for you to move to AZ so screw everyone else, you're getting what you want. Don't give me any of that hypocritical "patriot" crap.

But I'm glad the world is so black and white to you. The world I live in (the real world) is a whole lot of grey.

KenpoProfessor
01-29-2008, 3:50 PM
No middle ground with Kenpo... you're either with us or against us :D


Wow. This coming from someone who gave up the fight in Cali and moved away. You've been on this board long enough to know that what happens here eventually spreads over the rest of the country. So what happened to standing up and fighting? Oh, well it was more convenient for you to move to AZ so screw everyone else, you're getting what you want. Don't give me any of that hypocritical "patriot" crap.

But I'm glad the world is so black and white to you. The world I live in (the real world) is a whole lot of grey.


Am I supposed to stay in the state where the fight is never won, and that your own countryman would turn against you?

Which is why I'm so glad I moved to AZ, a much higher percentage of the population believe as I do, including the Sheriffs, Police, and military that live here. AZ is probably the furthest from an oppressive state as I've seen, and our State legislators work to ensure that freedom here.



Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

stag1500
01-29-2008, 3:54 PM
I've never believed in the notion of living to fight another day. Sometimes that day never comes in our lifetime. And what's more, the damage that is done between now and that day can be irreversable. Just look at Eastern Europe and the countries of the former Soviet Union. They are corrupt as hell. I'll die before I ever give up my guns. After all, this is why the Second Amenment is in our Constitution, so we have a means of protecting ourselves against the government.

AaronHorrocks
01-29-2008, 3:59 PM
As a few cans of tear gas come bouncing in through your window...followed by a flash bang and a loud roar [poof].

Who would know to use gas? Who has gas?

That's clearly a well planned attack. Why do you think I wouldn't have time to put on my gas mask?

SecondAmendmentgirl
01-29-2008, 4:03 PM
LOL - followed by a fire, followed by a news article about the tragedy

As a few cans of tear gas come bouncing in through your window...followed by a flash bang and a loud roar [poof].

STAGE 2
01-29-2008, 4:03 PM
Then you will suffer the life of a slave with your wife and children. If I had children, I would want them to know I died defending what I swore to protect at all costs, against enemies foreign and domestic. I would hope they would be the next generation of patriots.

I would also see you as a liability, to turn someone in to save the little liberty you have.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

But you don't, so you are talking out of your hind end and making gun owners look stupid in the process.

Everyone is rambo on the internet. Everyone is willing to die on principle "for the cause" when sitting at their keyboard. Things get a little different when 6 officers are standing on your porch. Because some people are honest when they say they would rather not be shot over a gun confiscation doesn't make them "collaborators" or "sheep", it makes them honest. That, of course, makes others dishonest.

Of course this ignores the stupidity of the strategy itself. One dead gun owner is one less vote that the antis have to deal with. Remember Patton's wisdom? Obviously some here don't.

So you will excuse me if I take with a grain of salt the platitudes of someone who wasn't even willing to deal with the hinderances of california gun laws, when they say they are ready to die.

anonymous12
01-29-2008, 4:08 PM
This is a trippy thread man. I think I would camp out in my house I am legend style and act like no one is home.

pnkssbtz
01-29-2008, 4:12 PM
But you don't, so you are talking out of your hind end and making gun owners look stupid in the process.

Everyone is rambo on the internet. Everyone is willing to die on principle "for the cause" when sitting at their keyboard. Things get a little different when 6 officers are standing on your porch. Because some people are honest when they say they would rather not be shot over a gun confiscation doesn't make them "collaborators" or "sheep", it makes them honest. That, of course, makes others dishonest.

Of course this ignores the stupidity of the strategy itself. One dead gun owner is one less vote that the antis have to deal with. Remember Patton's wisdom? Obviously some here don't.

So you will excuse me if I take with a grain of salt the platitudes of someone who wasn't even willing to deal with the hinderances of california gun laws, when they say they are ready to die.Honesty has nothing to do with it.


"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." - Samuel Adams

Ironchef
01-29-2008, 4:13 PM
Then you will suffer the life of a slave with your wife and children. If I had children, I would want them to know I died defending what I swore to protect at all costs, against enemies foreign and domestic. I would hope they would be the next generation of patriots.


Yikes!

No offense to any fellow Americans, but no, my right to keep and bear arms is NOT more important than my wife and kids. Seriously, who puts their country ahead of their family? Am I alone or something?

My kids can be just as patriotic as anyone with their father alive having given up his weapons at gun point. What's cool to me, and presumably to them, is probably watching their dad walk into a voting booth, or protest on the streets of san francisco to end war, or maybe to write their congresswoman asking for her to vote a certain way.

Speaking of patriotism... what's cool to my 7 year old daughter is that I had my US flag waving out on our apartment patio on 9/10/01 and for many months prior to that. Now a days, she and I notice all the poser with magnets on their cars or flag stickers printed in China..ok, she doesn't notice that, but I do. It's funny because that isn't patriotism at all, but it's somehow replaced patriotism in this country. I care about the dead on both sides of the slaughter in Iraq, because I'm a Christian and care about ALL people who suffer, but if I dare say I care about dead Iraqi's, somehow that isn't patriotic?

Sorry for my rant, but there's more patriotism and heroism in us than protecting our guns. If guns ceased to be legal in the country all together, then yes, you'd have something. But an illegal order given a LEO in a disaster zone is not a good place to show that patriotic zeal...the disaster will go away and hopefully law and order will prevail.

MudCamper
01-29-2008, 4:19 PM
Yikes!

No offense to any fellow Americans, but no, my right to keep and bear arms is NOT more important than my wife and kids. Seriously, who puts their country ahead of their family? Am I alone or something?

No you're not alone. Those of us that also have children understand. Those that don't don't. I do a lot of things differently now that I have a daughter. I have to stay alive, and out of jail, so that I can take care of her. My desires are secondary. I may want to do things that put me at risk (like Open Carrying, for example) but I do not because I need to be there for her. Until a person actually has kids I don't think they get this.

KenpoProfessor
01-29-2008, 4:20 PM
So you will excuse me if I take with a grain of salt the platitudes of someone who wasn't even willing to deal with the hinderances of california gun laws, when they say they are ready to die.

I suffer very few hinderances here, so why should I self inflict the misery by continuing to live a life of serfdom when all I have to do is drive 4 hrs to freedom? There was nothing to fight for, it was all gone, you just don't see it yet, you're choosing to live your oppressed life with as much dignity as you can muster whilst screaming traitor. Here, I have something to fight for, and many, many more people that are willing to fight it with me.

We have a 2nd amendment clause in our constitution here.

We also have a "castle doctrine" in place.

We have the availabilty to put up much more resistance to confiscation during a natural disaster because of our gun laws.

You have Sacramento (Kamala Harris) demanding they come in your home an inspect your weapons.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

MudCamper
01-29-2008, 4:23 PM
I suffer very few hinderances here, so why should I self inflict the misery by continuing to live a live of serfdom when all I have to do is drive 4 hrs to freedom? There was nothing to fight for, it was all gone, you just don't see it yet, you're choosing to live your oppressed life with as much dignity as you can muster whilst screaming traitor. Here, I have something to fight for, and many, many more people that are willing to fight it with me.

We have a 2nd amendment clause in our constitution here.

We also have a "castle doctrine" in place.

We have the availabilty to put up much more resistance to confiscation during a natural disaster because of our gun laws.

You have Sacramento (Kamala Harris) demanding they come in your home an inspect your weapons.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

Why haven't you left CalGuns yet. This kind of CA-bashing is the reason I left the other gun forums and came to CalGuns in the first place. So you don't like CA. Then good riddance. Go find an AZ board while you're at it.

KenpoProfessor
01-29-2008, 4:26 PM
Why haven't you left CalGuns yet. This kind of CA-bashing is the reason I left the other gun forums and came to CalGuns in the first place. So you don't like CA. Then good riddance. Go find an AZ board while you're at it.

I made some decent acquaintances from being on this board, so, I choose to stay. Why the hostility to my presence?

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

Outlaw Josey Wales
01-29-2008, 4:33 PM
No amount of body armor, or training, can stand up to a beltfed fifty caliber firearm.




Why do you think the CA legislature worked so hard to ban them? :rolleyes:

AJAX22
01-29-2008, 4:49 PM
Yet another reason to stick a few guns in the ground.

I have a wife that I am responsible to protect. If Enforcement officers come looking for my guns, they are welcome to 'all' that I have.

Its a shame, I'm going to miss those mosin nagants, C&R shotguns and all those registered pistols....

But the second they leave I, like the rest of you, will dig up a few replacements, some munitions, not all of them (they might come back again) but enough to re-equip.

and now I'll be the one eye'd man among the blind.

For Every Dozen guns you have in the safe, you MUST have one in the ground.

dondo
01-29-2008, 4:54 PM
Sorry, I was trying to think of a cheap gun to give away. As eta34 mentioned, a Mosin would be a better choice.
I am just kidding. I have a soft spot for sks's. I would have a whole warehouse full if I could.

Sniper3142
01-29-2008, 6:16 PM
Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

You know what...

I alway LOVE this saying!

:)

I guess it's a good thing that none of the Founding Fathers had kids.

Oh wait...

;)

And one other thing... why do you think the Gov't would want to take firearms out of the hands of the people?!?

It's real simple...

An armed and aware populace can insist on or even demand their rights.

An unarmed populace can only beg or plead for them.

:mad:

If you don't get it yet, then you just ain't getting it.

KenpoProfessor
01-29-2008, 6:30 PM
You know what...

I alway LOVE this saying!

:)

I guess it's a good thing that none of the Founding Fathers had kids.

Oh wait...

;)

And one other thing... why do you think the Gov't would want to take firearms out of the hands of the people?!?

It's real simple...

An armed and aware populace can insist on or even demand their rights.

An unarmed populace can only beg or plead for them.

:mad:

If you don't get it yet, then you just ain't getting it.

There are only two ways to influence people, Persuasion or Force, both are used in the pursuit of despotism and peace.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

MudCamper
01-29-2008, 6:52 PM
Why the hostility to my presence?

Why the hotility to your presence? I already said why. I'll try to be more clear. Because what you do here is bash on California. You bash on Californians. I am a Californian. I am a California Patriot. I am proud of who I am and where I am from. I have many family and friends who are Californians. You insult us all. Look at your words:

I suffer very few hinderances here, so why should I self inflict the misery by continuing to live a life of serfdom when all I have to do is drive 4 hrs to freedom? There was nothing to fight for, it was all gone, you just don't see it yet, you're choosing to live your oppressed life with as much dignity as you can muster whilst screaming traitor.

Yes I choose to stay but I am no serf. My life is not oppressed because I am still fighting. You on the other hand run from the fight and throw insults back at those who remain. In my book that makes you a coward.

Bishop
01-29-2008, 7:11 PM
I think the whole argument about door-to-door confiscation is moot. If the confiscation squad got suited up and was going from neighborhood to neighborhood, I'm positive they'd take indiscriminate fire from concealed positions. A few shots across their bow, or a few downed LEOs or NG, and I think they'd just park in a corner for 8 hours and report they found and destroyed all the guns.

Confiscating guns from citizens is a bad enough situation, but to have to risk getting shot in the back of the head by some "crazy sniper gun nut" while you're thinking about your family behind a mounted .50 would be too much. "I didn't sign on for this ****" would be one hell of an understatement.

Besides, it would only take one news clip of a .50 cal raking a house, and a few dead kids to bring that kind of action to a screeching halt.

KenpoProfessor
01-29-2008, 7:11 PM
Yes I choose to stay but I am no serf. My life is not oppressed because I am still fighting. You on the other hand run from the fight and throw insults back at those who remain. In my book that makes you a coward.


There are no insults in my words, you've just taken it that way.

And I can say with all my integrity and honor that I served this country faithfully for 11 years, and swore an oath to protect this way of life from enemies foreign and domestic. When the time comes, that oath will take it's toll, and I'm fully prepared for the consequences. Call me a coward all you like, but I refuse to live in bondage when I have a choice to remove that which restrains me. From here the real fight begins, and as I've said before, from many more like minded than those I left.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

odysseus
01-29-2008, 7:24 PM
Here's one in particular with NG in Katrina going house-to-house if you haven't seen this one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kf8trl69kzo

Diabolus
01-29-2008, 7:31 PM
Here's one in particular with NG in Katrina going house-to-house if you haven't seen this one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kf8trl69kzo

I have never seen that video before, it makes me sick.

Hopi
01-29-2008, 7:36 PM
Here's one in particular with NG in Katrina going house-to-house if you haven't seen this one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kf8trl69kzo

Disgusting.

Bishop
01-29-2008, 7:43 PM
Also worth watching

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1EdC5y8EGU&feature=related

odysseus
01-29-2008, 7:44 PM
There's a link on related videos where you see this. It would seem to me that some NG\LE might have been really forcing people out, while others were getting heavy handed but were able to stay. I like the woman at the very end about camping.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1EdC5y8EGU

Edit: Bishop beat me... :cool2:

anonymous12
01-29-2008, 7:55 PM
man that video makes me mad. I think I would lose my temper and that could end up in all kinds of bad, for me and the SOB trying to take my weapons.

MudCamper
01-29-2008, 8:07 PM
There are no insults in my words, you've just taken it that way.

Your right about one thing. I have taken your words as insults. You're wrong about the other. You do mean to insult. When you put down Californians, you are putting down most of the people on this forum.

And I can say with all my integrity and honor that I served this country faithfully for 11 years, and swore an oath to protect this way of life from enemies foreign and domestic.

WTH has that got to do with this? Nothing. You served our country. Good for you. Don't go hiding behind that when you are an ***.

eta34
01-29-2008, 8:19 PM
Since this will likely get locked before daybreak, I will jump in one last time. Each one of us has to decide what is most important to us. In the hierarchy, my family is much more important to me than a couple of milsurp rifles. I realize that Kenpo and others may believe that by giving up anything, we are becoming slaves and cowards. I respect that position, but disagree. In my humble opinion, we can win on the back end.

SecondAmendmentgirl
01-29-2008, 8:26 PM
I think the whole argument about door-to-door confiscation is moot. If the confiscation squad got suited up and was going from neighborhood to neighborhood, I'm positive they'd take indiscriminate fire from concealed positions. A few shots across their bow, or a few downed LEOs or NG, and I think they'd just park in a corner for 8 hours and report they found and destroyed all the guns.

Confiscating guns from citizens is a bad enough situation, but to have to risk getting shot in the back of the head by some "crazy sniper gun nut" while you're thinking about your family behind a mounted .50 would be too much. "I didn't sign on for this ****" would be one hell of an understatement.

Besides, it would only take one news clip of a .50 cal raking a house, and a few dead kids to bring that kind of action to a screeching halt.


You may in fact be right and that may be why nothing like this has ever happened on a statewide or national level. It does makes alot of sense but last year year when the INS was cracking down on undocumented workers and companies that hire them, the news said their was a big scare that caused school enrollment to drop, the Mexican consulate to issue leaflets and the Border patrol also noted a big drop in people crossing into the USA illegally. So it doesn't take alot to put fear into people.

Let's just say I don't rule it out of the realm of possibility based on what I've seen in the UK, Canada, Australia and places like Chicago, D.C. and even California.

chunger
01-29-2008, 8:53 PM
I did some digging, and I was unable to find any information about lawsuits that were filed concerning violation of 2nd amendment rights in the aftermath of Katrina. I find plenty of articles stating that the NRA did file a class action against the city, but I want to know if any financial hurt was put on any individual (and there were plenty of them) filmed violating civil rights.

The success or failure of these after-actions will largely effect my planning.

KenpoProfessor
01-30-2008, 4:06 AM
WTH has that got to do with this? Nothing. You served our country. Good for you. Don't go hiding behind that when you are an ***.


And I can say with all my integrity and honor that I served this country faithfully for 11 years, and swore an oath to protect this way of life from enemies foreign and domestic. When the time comes, that oath will take it's toll, and I'm fully prepared for the consequences.




Here is the oath I swore in June 1980. I have no officers appointed over me, the President is not my boss, and I'm no longer subjected to the UCMJ.

In the Armed Forces EXCEPT the National Guard (Army or Air)

I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

You see the part about support and defend the Constitution of the United States? Those rights belong to me, and you for that matter, and I will fight and die, no matter the circumstance to protect and defend them.

In a time of crisis like a natural disaster, or even a man made one, the Constitution is still in effect, and my oath to defend it. If I had a family, they would have to understand what that oath meant to me, and they would prepare themselves for the eventuality of my demise should it come to that.

I will not live a life of servitude when given a choice, and I will not live amongst those who choose to do so by popular vote. I changed that situation by leaving CA. There are other states that are incrementally removing rights and freedoms from citizens, IL, MA, PA, NJ, and NY are a few examples of where I chose not to live. Freedom is not free, and I intend to pay for it.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

AaronHorrocks
01-30-2008, 7:09 AM
Everyone is rambo on the internet. Everyone is willing to die on principle "for the cause" when sitting at their keyboard. Things get a little different when 6 officers are standing on your porch. Because some people are honest when they say they would rather not be shot over a gun confiscation doesn't make them "collaborators" or "sheep", it makes them honest. That, of course, makes others dishonest.

Of course this ignores the stupidity of the strategy itself. One dead gun owner is one less vote that the antis have to deal with. Remember Patton's wisdom? Obviously some here don't.

So you will excuse me if I take with a grain of salt the platitudes of someone who wasn't even willing to deal with the hinderances of california gun laws, when they say they are ready to die.

When things get SOO BAD that "Law Enforcement" are doing the robbing and illegals acts in an emergency situation, then there's no difference between them and the ghestopo of Nazi Germany. Of the people that fought them, some died then and there, and some lived to tell about it. All of them that fought, fought "for the cause". That cause being fighting for their life, and thier freedom. History remembers them well.

In a survival situation, the line is drawn at my front door. You can knock and identify yourself first. If you force your way in, you're clearly a bad guy. And, no I don't intend on dying for a cause.
I intend on doing the least amount of dying as possible. :rolleyes:

Soldier415
01-30-2008, 7:36 AM
When things get SOO BAD that "Law Enforcement" are doing the robbing and illegals acts in an emergency situation, then there's no difference between them and the ghestopo of Nazi Germany.

Godswins law has been invoked

IBTL

Ironchef
01-30-2008, 8:07 AM
I did some digging, and I was unable to find any information about lawsuits that were filed concerning violation of 2nd amendment rights in the aftermath of Katrina. I find plenty of articles stating that the NRA did file a class action against the city, but I want to know if any financial hurt was put on any individual (and there were plenty of them) filmed violating civil rights.

The success or failure of these after-actions will largely effect my planning.

If I'm not mistaken, those are actually 4th amendment rights being violated. Taking the guns as a goal is a second violation to them unlawfully entering and confiscating. I actually think violating the 4th is greater harm than violating the 2nd...not to impune the importance of the protections 'guaranteed' in the 2nd.

But still, EVERY citizen who had their home invaded by NG or LE should be on a class action suit and they should destroy the leaders invoking that illegal order all the way up the chain (even Heckuva job Brownie shouldn't get away from that).

CCWFacts
01-30-2008, 10:02 AM
When things get SOO BAD that "Law Enforcement" are doing the robbing and illegals acts in an emergency situation, then there's no difference between them and the ghestopo of Nazi Germany. Of the people that fought them, some died then and there, and some lived to tell about it. All of them that fought, fought "for the cause". That cause being fighting for their life, and thier freedom. History remembers them well.

We have a way of fighting them that the resisters in Europe didn't have. We can sue them, and we can win, if we have video tape. That makes all the difference between choosing to have an armed showdown vs. having a videotaped confrontation and a civil victory later. It's a different universe. I'm a keyboard commando. I'm a video commando. But I know I'm not a commando commando.

Gryff
01-30-2008, 10:52 AM
We have a way of fighting them that the resisters in Europe didn't have. We can sue them, and we can win, if we have video tape. That makes all the difference between choosing to have an armed showdown vs. having a videotaped confrontation and a civil victory later. It's a different universe. I'm a keyboard commando. I'm a video commando. But I know I'm not a commando commando.

I'm still fuzzy on how the lawsuit thing protects my family from looters after my firearms are seized.

The posting consensus seems to be the necessity of having a throw-away gun that you can hand over when the seizure team arrives.

I am still curious about the issue, because nobody addressed the original question I posed when I started this thread..."What right do you have to prevent an illegal seizure?"

We have the "I'll kill them" crowd, and the "I'll sue them later" crowd, but none of that answers the question. The closest, I think, came from 2ndAmendmentgirl when she wrote, "A police officer would have to be doing something not in the performance of their duties to be out of the scope of qualified immunity."

But my response to that asked at what point does an LEOs actions cross that line. So far, no one has answered that question.

The Constitution and legal system exists to protect us and society. In times of peace and stability, our rights have to be (and should be) fought over in the courts. But I am unclear on what I, as an American citizen, am entitled to do when times are not peaceful and stable. Katrina was a small window into that reality. And while it may not have constituted a complete breakdown of society, it did demonstrate how infrastructure can fail and leave people to have to temporarily fend for themselves.

So, if that scenario shifts to California, where are the lines that limit our rights? Is our only legal recourse against illegal and/or Unconstitutional orders given by politicians (who sit in warm rooms and are served coffee and hot meals by their staffers) to fight in the courts months after the danger has passed?

Living 2 miles east of the Hayward Faultline, this issue worries me.

-Jim

Outlaw Josey Wales
01-30-2008, 11:08 AM
In a time of crisis like a natural disaster, or even a man made one, the Constitution is still in effect,


Precisely.....:cheers2:

CCWFacts
01-30-2008, 11:12 AM
I'm still fuzzy on how the lawsuit thing protects my family from looters after my firearms are seized.

It doesn't. As I said in several other posts in this thread, and as you point out also, have a backup gun hidden. Their searches are not thorough. Let them take your old Mosin rifle (under protest) and then get your rifle #2 out from the attic. Think. Spend $100 on an old Mosin or a used shotty. $100 is a small amount to spend on disaster preparations.

So, you buy a simple video camera ($200) and an old rifle (or shotty or handgun) ($100), and now, for $300, you get to:

1. Continue being able to defend yourself after a confiscation happens, satisfying your need for physical safety
2. Have video evidence of illegal activity (robbery, civil rights violation) that can be used for a huge judgment when the dust settles, satisfying your need to defend your rights, and having a nice financial perk as well
3. You don't end up in an impossible-to-win firefight with any government agents, satisfying your need to stay alive and protect your family

Sounds like a win-win-win to me.

Re: firefights with government agents vs. with ordinary criminals: Criminals give up and go away when they encounter resistance. Government agents do the opposite when they encounter resistance. They escalate to infinity. If officers get shot, they will bring in SWAT teams, armored vehicles, helicopters. If someone by some outrageous chance has some means of defeating armored vehicles and helicopters, they will bring in tanks, missiles, bombs. No one can defeat those things, obviously. "I fought the law and the law won" is the way it goes, always.

The posting consensus seems to be the necessity of having a throw-away gun that you can hand over when the seizure team arrives.

That's right. Although "throw away" doesn't mean useless or low-quality. $150 Mosins or Swedish Mausers or Schmidt-Rubins are wonderful firearms, potent, long-range, accurate, easy to use.

I am still curious about the issue, because nobody addressed the original question I posed when I started this thread..."What right do you have to prevent an illegal seizure?"

Legally you probably have the right to use force. Illegal seizure is probably the same as robbery, and the perpetrators have the same rights as robbers, whether they are sworn officers or not.

So, if that scenario shifts to California, where are the lines that limit our rights? Is our only legal recourse against illegal and/or Unconstitutional orders given by politicians (who sit in warm rooms and are served coffee and hot meals by their staffers) to fight in the courts months after the danger has passed?

No that's definitely not your only legal recourse. But it is the only recourse that is practical and properly accommodates the desire to not kill anyone, desire to remain alive, and the desire to vigorously defend one's rights.

Stormfeather
01-30-2008, 11:25 AM
Well, having been in New Orleans for all that time during Katrina, I know it doesnt look good on those videos. But it also doesnt show all the good we did as well. And for those of you that dont know, I was a private contractor working for a Private Company, who was in turn contracted by a federal agency. So while you are getting all of your conspiracy theories in a row, understand that at no time did we confiscate anyone weapons that didnt deserve it. We worked in/as rescue operations, static security, and special officers supporting the state police. I personally find some of the statements I have read on here a bit disturbing, ranging from "Im willing to die for. . . " and my personal favorite. . .

No amount of body armor, or training, can stand up to a beltfed fifty caliber firearm.

No one forces there way into my home. :mad:

AaronHorrocks, I just want you to know, its all about the training, if you plan on using a .50 cal to defend yourself inside your home, it wont take much for you to bring the home down on yourself. But hey, if thats how you want to go out, pancaked by your own stupidity, so be it. Heres why. . .

1- Your belt fed 50 sure isnt room portable, and any window or door you have is an access point into your house. think of it that way.
2- You best have a pintle mount that goes in a full 360 degrees as well.
3- Sure you may have a gas mask, but what about flashbangs?
4- Hows your ammo supply? Enough linked to hold you over?
5- Ever fired your .50 without hearing protection? Inside a confined area? They wont have to flashbang you, you've done it to yourself already.
6- No amount of firepower from one man is enough to stop a concentrated, concerted, well planned attack. Unless you have a mini-gun stashed, I dont see it happening.

This isnt to point you out or ridicule you, its just a statment of fact. It would serve you much better to fortify the house with bars on windows & a heavy duty security gate. Blackout cloth's over the windows and cctv hidden thru out the outside areas pointed access points. Its alot easier to appear "deserted" and not occupied than it is to have to break out "Big Bertha" to defend the domicile.

CCW said it perfectly with this. . .



Re: firefights with government agents vs. with ordinary criminals: Criminals give up and go away when they encounter resistance. Government agents do the opposite when they encounter resistance. They escalate to infinity. If officers get shot, they will bring in SWAT teams, armored vehicles, helicopters. If someone by some outrageous chance has some means of defeating armored vehicles and helicopters, they will bring in tanks, missiles, bombs. No one can defeat those things, obviously. "I fought the law and the law won" is the way it goes, always.

Theres always basic rules for SHTF.

1- In such a SHTF scenario, its good to have a plan. Be it hook up with other like-minded folks, or go Johnny Rambo Lone-Wolf style. BUT have a plan.
2- Once you have that plan, have a way & means of implementing said plan.
3- Once you have ways/means, train to implement said plan.
4- Once youve trained and are fully confident your plan will work, have a friend test it out & dissect it for snafus.
5- refer back to step #2 & repeat till plan is perfect.
6- Always plan on your plan going to hell once implemented.

Ironchef
01-30-2008, 11:29 AM
CCW, a couple things come to mind.

1) "Contractors" doing the confiscating. Because obviously the local PD will be in disarray, NG might be around (if not deployed abroad) to do it, but it's also likely some Blackwater cowboys (or other contractors) will be serving up their lawlessness at your door.

2) Registration lists? I'm wondering if the Katrina confiscations were done at ALL doors, or at doors where registered gun owners lived? I know a video or two I've seen had the commentator saying "door to door" but it wasn't clear on what criteria the confiscations were being done. I"m wondering if/when Hayward destroys the SF Bay Area, and all hell breaks loose, will some LEO/NG/BW Contractor come banging on my door at gunpoint with his DOJ provided list of reg'd guns? If so, having throw away guns is moot..they'll know that you didn't give up the kimber or that stag lower when you toss them an old banged up shotty and mosin.


Theres always basic rules for SHTF.

1- In such a SHTF scenario, its good to have a plan. Be it hook up with other like-minded folks, or go Johnny Rambo Lone-Wolf style. BUT have a plan.
2- Once you have that plan, have a way & means of implementing said plan.
3- Once you have ways/means, train to implement said plan.
4- Once youve trained and are fully confident your plan will work, have a friend test it out & dissect it for snafus.
5- refer back to step #2 & repeat till plan is perfect.
6- Always plan on your plan going to hell once implemented.

7- Have a cheap scanner with you and some batteries...you'll hear them coming miles away.. Or get a ham license and a small HT and work with others to defend your rights by hiding things better with neighbors, etc. Hell, get walkie talkies if you're in a good neighborhood where you can combine evasive efforts to conceal your firearms (DOJ knows people will be burrying things so what's to keep them from scanning your yard?).

Gryff
01-30-2008, 11:34 AM
So while you are getting all of your conspiracy theories in a row, understand that at no time did we confiscate anyone weapons that didnt deserve it.

Okay, I'm confused...

You are saying that legally owned weapons were not improperly seized, and that stories of these incidents are just conspiracy theories, right?

OR...are you stating that while others may have been involved in this unconstitutional activity, you were not. It's your whole "conspiracy theory" statement that confuses me.

Stormfeather
01-30-2008, 11:36 AM
CCW, a couple things come to mind.

1) "Contractors" doing the confiscating. Because obviously the local PD will be in disarray, NG might be around (if not deployed abroad) to do it, but it's also likely some Blackwater cowboys (or other contractors) will be serving up their lawlessness at your door.

2) Registration lists? I'm wondering if the Katrina confiscations were done at ALL doors, or at doors where registered gun owners lived? I know a video or two I've seen had the commentator saying "door to door" but it wasn't clear on what criteria the confiscations were being done. I"m wondering if/when Hayward destroys the SF Bay Area, and all hell breaks loose, will some LEO/NG/BW Contractor come banging on my door at gunpoint with his DOJ provided list of reg'd guns? If so, having throw away guns is moot..they'll know that you didn't give up the kimber or that stag lower when you toss them an old banged up shotty and mosin.

Wow, you are so mistaken on soo many levels its not even funny. I highly reccomend counseling, a new tinfoil hat, one that isnt so tight, or maybe you should just move to the top of Mt Diablo and call it a day.
At what point does it seem that BW would want to come in a take your guns? Its not what they do. You spend too much time believeing the tripe you are spoonfed on CNN. How about this, if the SHTF, I can guarantee you I wont be at your door taking your guns, if I am, you have my permission to shoot me. ( or at least try to ) YOu have more to worry about form a NG unit that you would a PSC. Learn the difference please.
As for your idea of a cheap scanner, wont work against encrypted radios. But it is a great idea, always have gmrs/frs radios and fellow like-minded people on your freq to maintain comm's.

Stormfeather
01-30-2008, 11:42 AM
Okay, I'm confused...

You are saying that legally owned weapons were not improperly seized, and that stories of these incidents are just conspiracy theories, right?.

No, weapons were seized during the Hurricane Katrina Relief efforts. I witnessed this first hand.

OR...are you stating that while others may have been involved in this unconstitutional activity, you were not. It's your whole "conspiracy theory" statement that confuses me.

This is exactly what I am saying. The people I was with was also asked to help seize firearms because we were joint-tasked with homeland security. It didnt go far. And no, nobody in my group even came close to agreeing with the idea of seizing privately owned firearms. As far as conspiracy theory, I worked for Blackwater at that time. Because of this, people think that they are going to be the ones walking door to door taking over the neighborhoods and confiscating guns. See above post.

Ironchef
01-30-2008, 11:43 AM
Wow, you are so mistaken on soo many levels its not even funny. I highly reccomend counseling, a new tinfoil hat, one that isnt so tight, or maybe you should just move to the top of Mt Diablo and call it a day.
At what point does it seem that BW would want to come in a take your guns? Its not what they do. You spend too much time believeing the tripe you are spoonfed on CNN. How about this, if the SHTF, I can guarantee you I wont be at your door taking your guns, if I am, you have my permission to shoot me. ( or at least try to ) YOu have more to worry about form a NG unit that you would a PSC. Learn the difference please.

Daaaaamn dude, chill! IT was a question, and it was based on articles from several places, posts in forums, etc that gave the impression that there were contractors in the Katrina hit area doing such things. A simple correction would have been nice instead of the insults. Or were/are you a BW member pissed that I called you a lawless cowboy? If so, sorry, and get over it.

BillCA
01-30-2008, 11:47 AM
The OP posed the following questions...

What is a citizen's right to refuse an illegal request order by a law enforcement official?
What happens when the citizen feels that refusing that request is critically important for maintaining the safety of themselves and their family (such as giving up your legally owned weapons in the midst of widespread looting and chaos)?
What right does a private citizen have in refusing an illegal request by law enforcement officials.
If they have a list from the state of the guns that you own, does that constitute probable cause?
If they need but don't have a search warrant, what right do you have to prevent them from entering your home?
Taking these in order...
1. What is a citizen's right to refuse an illegal request order by a law enforcement official?
Presuming that Martial Law has not yet been declared, your right to refuse an unlawful order remains the same as it does at any other time. Resisting an officer falls under 148 PC and is a misdemeanor. Resisting and causing great bodily harm to the officer falls under 148.10 PC (felony/misdemeanor).

2. What happens when the citizen feels that refusing that request is critically important for maintaining the safety of themselves and their family?
If a State of Emergency has been declared, you lose. Officals can order your evacuation and arrest you under 409.6 PC to force you out of the evacuation area. This is discretionary - officers may allow citizens to sign a waiver or document the notification and your refusal to leave, in lieu of arrest.

3. What right does a private citizen have in refusing an illegal request by law enforcement officials.
If a State of Emergency has been declared, almost none. Under the Emergency Services Act public officals have a wide lattitude to issue emergency ordinances and regulations to preserve life and public order. Only if the orders wantonly violate the constitution and are not in line with emergency procedures do you have a chance at proving - later in court - that they were unlawful (i.e. police entering homes without warrants to search for drugs and making arrests when found).

4. If they have a list from the state of the guns that you own, does that constitute probable cause?
Unless Marital Law has been declared and orders given to sieze firearms, no. Under state law and the Katrina bill, officials may not seize firearms. Since firearms are legal to possess, lacking any other circumstances, it is not probable cause to believe some crime has been or will be committed.

5. If they need but don't have a search warrant, what right do you have to prevent them from entering your home?You can verbally refuse entry and deny any permission to search the grounds. If they force the issue and you cause great bodily injury to any officer or attempt to do so, you will be arrested under 148.10 PC. Under this section the court must find that the peace officer's action was reasonable based on the facts or circumstances confronting the officer at the time.

Note that even under the Emergency Services Act, officials may not issue orders that are not directly related to the emergency at hand. For instance, officials could not order the confiscation of all cargo trucks, vans and pick-ups unless they were then used to transport the injured or supplies to affected areas.

They could order the arrest of anyone seen in a public place with a firearm or shooting a firearm. Such an arrest may result in confiscation of all firearms they can find.

I'd like to believe that in the aftermath of some horrific disaster, individual police officers would be more than willing to "look the other way" if you were engaged solely in keeping order around your home and thwarting looters. But I won't bet on it in California.

April is Earthquake preparedness month and now would be a good time to talk to neighbors about planning. Helping each other out with stocking the right supplies, sharing homes, clothes and resources and, most of all providing security for your neighborhood in the days afterward. Neighborhoods that are organized and provisioned are more likely to survive in good shape and be able to help others.

Stormfeather
01-30-2008, 11:52 AM
Daaaaamn dude, chill! IT was a question, and it was based on articles from several places, posts in forums, etc that gave the impression that there were contractors in the Katrina hit area doing such things. A simple correction would have been nice instead of the insults. Or were/are you a BW member pissed that I called you a lawless cowboy? If so, sorry, and get over it.

Apologies are actually mine. I misread your statement. As to clarify. .
Yes, we was in NOLA during Katrina,
No, we didnt take part in confiscations.
Yes we were asked to.
But I do take offense to being called a "lawless cowboy". Im Native American! :D

Im just wondering where the idea came from that you would consider a private contractor a "cowboy". From videos on YouTube showing a European PMC shooting up cars on the road? Or from your personal experience? Just in any profession, you will have good guys, and bad. Making blanket statements to the moral values of all of us from your experiences is like saying all cops are bad and shouldnt have guns and all gun owners are bad people and should be disarmed

Soldier415
01-30-2008, 11:57 AM
But I do take offense to being called a "lawless cowboy". Im Native American! :D

Storm is know as Chief Slapaho...

Stormfeather
01-30-2008, 11:59 AM
Storm is know as Chief Slapaho...

You're just mad we never invited you to play on the Indians side when we played Little Big Horn as kids! It had to be tiring playing Custer all those years! :D

Ironchef
01-30-2008, 11:59 AM
So hey, what of my second question...registration lists? Since you seem familiar with the process done in Katrina, were the searches based on registration lists?

You mentioned that the confiscations were done on those that deserved it only. And from what I gather, the NRA doesn't really have allot of people coming forward who were law abiding (or non-deserving) victims of an illegal confiscation..making your point more realistic. So what then was the criteria for confiscation? Was it a list of felons? Squaters in an abandoned home (what I heard)? Gangbangers? All of the above?

Oh, and I've seen the area 52 video, you are a lawless cowboy if I ever saw one. I'm soooo sicking the DOJ on you.

rue
01-30-2008, 12:12 PM
Everyone has to make their own moral and ethical pre-determinations as to where the line is.

I tend to draw the line MUCH further back when it comes to hard-working emergency response workers however mis-guided their actions are. I'd rather choose to be a bit creative and resourceful than escalate against my mis-guided LEO friends. This thread is making me re-think and expand my disaster kit to include adequate "deeply hidden" hard-to-access resources.

A couple thousand dollars would probably go a long way towards putting away some high-quality, mission-suitable firearms for the family w/ maybe some spares for my trained friends. Spending a couple thousand dollars (actually fun) on the front end sure beats endangering my own life and the lives of emergency response teams.

To me, the wise thing is to de-escalate as much as possible during the crisis while still retaining your capacity to look after yourself and your family.

After the crisis passes, all gloves are off. That is where you will have the legal high ground to heap cruel amounts of financial pain on those who have violated your rights. I am sure with the proper case, you would have the benefit of significant reinforcements in your endeavor by sympathetic gun-owning community. If your legal action is successful, the upper LEO authorities will not soon forget and as in the case of Katrina, you may be able to leverage your case to influence national policy.

So, I guess you can break it down into 3 phases:

Pre-Crisis:
Purchase and creatively store an adequate emergency supply. This may involve buying something pricey that you will not have access to for the most part for "playing with" after it has been function verified and sighted in.

During crisis:
De-escalate and work to build your concrete case. Know your rights and expose the violations. Inform LEO so they and your witnesses/recording devices see that the LEO is making deliberate, informed violations to penal code.

Post crisis:
Recover stolen property. Develop and present your legal case. Cash out if possible, but spend money on the legal offensive instead of on the legal defensive.

If I adopt this strategy, I can win on all accounts.
1. I support gun business
2. I reduce my exposure to legal risk
3. I have a change to leverage a bad disaster situation for financial gain
4. All of this while retaining a high level of security for my family.

I think in a high stress situation, it's best to maintain a "humble" sheeple demeanor so as not to raise red flags. With a proper fall-back plan, you will not have to make your heroic and symbolic last stand for freedom and the rights of all americans by foolishly shooting it out with LEO (even if legally and morally justified). Strategically here, they have backup and you do not and both of your lives are at risk. So, tactically retreat to your next defensible position.

But, you can choose the time, place, and context for your heroic stand. . . in the court room. . . for freedom and the rights of all americans. Strategically here, you have backup and they do not especially if your case is overwhelmingly strong and the department is trying distance themselves from the perpetrator. Your life is not at risk, but theirs is. This is a better place to make your fight.



Only problem with this is you believe there is a normal return to the way things were. In an earthquake I can see that, in other situations I think this may be a flawed plan.

Stormfeather
01-30-2008, 12:14 PM
So hey, what of my second question...registration lists? Since you seem familiar with the process done in Katrina, were the searches based on registration lists?

You mentioned that the confiscations were done on those that deserved it only. And from what I gather, the NRA doesn't really have allot of people coming forward who were law abiding (or non-deserving) victims of an illegal confiscation. So what then was the criteria for confiscation? Was it a list of felons? Squaters in an abandoned home (what I heard)? Gangbangers? All of the above?

Oh, and I've seen the area 52 video, you are a lawless cowboy if I ever saw one. I'm soooo sicking the DOJ on you.


There was no "lists" during NOLA/Katrina. Everything was conducted on house to house searches.
*-If nobody was home, and the place was open, we would go in and do a courtesy search then leave. If somebody was home, they was merely asked if they needed assistance leaving.
*-If nobody was home and the place was locked up, showing no sign of occupancy, we bypassed it.
*-If we came across someone who did have a weapon on them in their own house, we merely asked if they needed water, food, medicine or evac.

As for the majority of people that had guns confiscated, usually they were partaking in a law breaking issue. If someone said they didnt have a gun, there was no need to "toss the house", there are other more pressing issues at hand.
As far as any confiscations that I did take part in, it was due to a criminal act taking place in my presence. ie; taking pot shots at me, robbery, looting, murder, etc etc. All of which did happen. We didnt care so much if they was registered felons, we had no way of checking on it due to the severity of the current situation. As for squatters, the whole town had become squatters, you couldnt prove/disprove someone did or didnt live in a certain house. "Gangbangers" per sey were the biggest issue. While NOLA is famous for not having organized gangs, ie; bloods crips, ms13, soreno's nortes, etc etc, they did have roving groups of hoodrats who did prey on those not armed. Those are the main groups who suffered arms confiscation. I personally had no issue confiscating firearms from a group of 15-20 year olds carrying bottles of hennesey in their pockets and wearing $8000-$10000 worth of jewelry with the tags still on them driving around a stolen Land Rover with 4-5 ak's inside. Im sure you would do the same.

STAGE 2
01-30-2008, 12:17 PM
First you say this...

I suffer very few hinderances here, so why should I self inflict the misery by continuing to live a life of serfdom when all I have to do is drive 4 hrs to freedom? There was nothing to fight for, it was all gone, you just don't see it yet, you're choosing to live your oppressed life with as much dignity as you can muster whilst screaming traitor. Here, I have something to fight for, and many, many more people that are willing to fight it with me.

And then you say this...

Those rights belong to me, and you for that matter, and I will fight and die, no matter the circumstance to protect and defend them.

Of course you give yourself a nice little "out" here...

Call me a coward all you like, but I refuse to live in bondage when I have a choice to remove that which restrains me. From here the real fight begins, and as I've said before, from many more like minded than those I left.

So I guess freedom only matters when you have a big enough coalition behind you? Of course this begs the question of if AZ becomes ultra liberal will you scoot to another state and "let the real fight begin" there.

STAGE 2
01-30-2008, 12:19 PM
When things get SOO BAD that "Law Enforcement" are doing the robbing and illegals acts in an emergency situation, then there's no difference between them and the ghestopo of Nazi Germany. Of the people that fought them, some died then and there, and some lived to tell about it. All of them that fought, fought "for the cause". That cause being fighting for their life, and thier freedom. History remembers them well.

In a survival situation, the line is drawn at my front door. You can knock and identify yourself first. If you force your way in, you're clearly a bad guy. And, no I don't intend on dying for a cause.
I intend on doing the least amount of dying as possible. :rolleyes:

You're hedging. Are you with these folks that say they are going to smoke a cop going door to door for your guns or not?

STAGE 2
01-30-2008, 12:21 PM
I personally had no issue confiscating firearms from a group of 15-20 year olds carrying bottles of hennesey in their pockets and wearing $8000-$10000 worth of jewelry with the tags still on them driving around a stolen Land Rover with 4-5 ak's inside. Im sure you would do the same.

But what about their 2nd amendment rights:rolleyes:

Ironchef
01-30-2008, 12:21 PM
Well that makes sense, and with the few victims the NRA is finding, it really does coincide with what you're saying (wasn't a raping of civil rights as reported). I was just curious about our firearm registrations being used against us, but it seems, as you said, there's more pressing things to get to than stopping rescue, recovery, reconstruction, crime fighting, etc than to divert valuable resources for some stupid gun grabbing..which as shown in this thread, would be met with resistance by some, urine by others (me).

Stormfeather
01-30-2008, 12:34 PM
But what about their 2nd amendment rights:rolleyes:

Unfortunately, I think those rights got suspended for a bit. . .

Well that makes sense, and with the few victims the NRA is finding, it really does coincide with what you're saying (wasn't a raping of civil rights as reported). I was just curious about our firearm registrations being used against us, but it seems, as you said, there's more pressing things to get to than stopping rescue, recovery, reconstruction, crime fighting, etc than to divert valuable resources for some stupid gun grabbing..which as shown in this thread, would be met with resistance by some, urine by others (me).

If you want a good read on it, we had this discussion before in regards to Katrina. You can read the thread here . . .

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=77405&highlight=nola+katrina+blackwater

I personally dont think that firearms registration will be held used against us in a SHTF scenario. Longarms arent registered per se in the computer system. So theres no way of telling. Handguns are, but with evacuations, loss of power, and all the general craziness that goes on when SHTF, I say its very unlikely that would happen. But who knows! Maybe that one guy will get the chance to use his turret mounted belt fed 50 cal after all! That and Kenpo can finally say. . . "I told you so!"

Ak47owner
01-30-2008, 1:56 PM
hmm lets just hope such a senario will never happen, but if it does i think the calguns members will be prepared :)

Soldier415
01-30-2008, 2:06 PM
hmm lets just hope such a senario will never happen, but if it does i think the calguns members will be prepared :)

And at Bullseye we are more than happy to assist you in all your SHTF/Zombie Invasion preparation needs ;)

:D

Stormfeather
01-30-2008, 2:13 PM
And at Bullseye we are more than happy to assist you in all your SHTF/Zombie Invasion preparation needs ;)

:D

shameless plug!

Ironchef
01-30-2008, 2:33 PM
But seriously...It is fun as hell being a zombie fanatic and planning that big day! I'm just hoping they're slow "Shaun of the Dead" caliber zombies and not Dawn of the Dead speed ones...or, *gulp*, I Am Legend speed zombies (i know they're vampiric zombies and don't count..but they's fast!).

Speaking of, I'd want a pair of these (http://www.fernknives.com/images/KB-1248medium.gif) for zombie day...

Gryff
01-30-2008, 3:20 PM
You can verbally refuse entry and deny any permission to search the grounds. If they force the issue and you cause great bodily injury to any officer or attempt to do so, you will be arrested under 148.10 PC. Under this section the court must find that the peace officer's action was reasonable based on the facts or circumstances confronting the officer at the time.

THAT'S what I was hoping to find out. Thank you.

As I said, I know that most cops are decent, honorable people. I don't believe that they are all part of the Secret U.N. Gun-Grabbing Cabal. But, as someone else said, there are a few that enjoy their authority a little too much, and there are also a lot who don't like being told they are wrong by someone who isn't in uniform (even if they are wrong).

So the trick will be to point out what they are doing during a seizure is unconstitutional and illegal, but more importantly will place my honest, law-abiding family in danger when they take my Lee-Enfield rifle since it is my only method of defense. :D

-Jim

GuyW
01-30-2008, 3:24 PM
....nobody addressed the original question I posed when I started this thread..."What right do you have to prevent an illegal seizure?"

We have the "I'll kill them" crowd, and the "I'll sue them later" crowd, but none of that answers the question....
-Jim

Here's an answer by one guy who had time to consider his inactions...

“…At what exact point then, should one resist the communists?”

“How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family...?”

“Or, if during periods of mass arrests people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand.

….The police…. would have quickly suffered a shortage of officers …and notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt."

(The Gulag Archipelago)
-Alexandr Solzhenitsyn- Nobel Prize winner, 11 year survivor of the Soviet concentration camps.

I think he's in tune with our original Founding Fathers, who answered the same question, the same way...