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Falstaff
10-23-2013, 1:26 PM
As of 10-16-13 DOJ has raided 5 shops in northern Ca. served warrants for search & seizure for all AR related items. Including unfinished & finished 80% builds, parts, uppers etc.
The ATF has ruled that for a home built weapon to be legal it needs to be built at the end users "home" anything less and they consider it manufacturing without a class 7 license. The penalty is they will confiscate your lower/ lowers all AR type items and your machinery, there are lawyers working on this now so please be patient as this is just a pause in the flow of things.

I see no mention of this anywhere, anyone know status????

SoldierLife7
10-23-2013, 1:28 PM
:fud: ?

LMTluvr
10-23-2013, 1:32 PM
You're likely not going to see much discussion about this. It appears that several shops were in fact visited and told to stop.
Now the legal fight begins hence the lack of open discussion.

ojisan
10-23-2013, 1:37 PM
Dr. Death posted a week ago or so about this...it seems he got visited and is now shut down.
He asked the Mods to delete all his related posts so maybe they can't be found anymore.

RamonSJC
10-23-2013, 1:43 PM
Need sticky on converting Harbor freight Mini mill into descent home machine/cnc.

PuppY_K1ck3R
10-23-2013, 2:06 PM
Broadcasting the hell out of it didn't help the cause. There was money for everyone. Like Aries case. Greed took over.

Rock6.3
10-23-2013, 2:13 PM
Update: "All Ares Armor Build Party Slots have been closed per cease and desist letter from the BATFE."

Source: http://aresarmor.com/store/Category/BuildParty

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=275067&d=1382566370

RamonSJC
10-23-2013, 2:14 PM
Time for a mobile cnc rental that fits in the garage :D Like renting a fun jump, but funner!

Falstaff
10-23-2013, 2:41 PM
Time for a mobile cnc rental that fits in the garage :D Like renting a fun jump, but funner!

LMAO

:D

Calzona
10-23-2013, 2:43 PM
This is nothing more than the government attempting to find a way to keep us from legally building our rifles. In order to "build it ourselves" we have to do it INSIDE our own home? There is no way that kind of bull would stand to legal scrutiny. If I walk over to use my neighbor's gas grill and cook a steak, then bring it back to my home, is it not my steak?

This is ripe for a suit, put them in their place.

Are you listening CalGuns?

LMTluvr
10-23-2013, 2:45 PM
This is nothing more than the government attempting to find a way to keep us from legally building our rifles. In order to "build it ourselves" we have to do it INSIDE our own home? There is no way that kind of bull would stand to legal scrutiny. If I walk over to use my neighbor's gas grill and cook a steak, then bring it back to my home, is it not my steak?

This is ripe for a suit, put them in their place.

Are you listening CalGuns?

I'm willing to bet that's being discussed amongst the "in" crowd. But again, I doubt there will be much discussion on here.

bohoki
10-23-2013, 2:45 PM
it is a tad confusing if an 80% ceases to be one with a hammer a trigger or safety hole drilled it seems to me that all a person has to do is drill one of those holes and should be able to hire a gunsmith to repair their home made gun

atf does't know what 80% means they have 2 classifications gun or not gun if you modify the paperweight to match their specification of gun then you made it

umd
10-23-2013, 2:45 PM
Time for a mobile cnc rental that fits in the garage :D Like renting a fun jump, but funner!

Someone was already doing that, and disappeared...

cdtx2001
10-23-2013, 3:00 PM
Buy a Bridgeport off craigslist for $1000 and some end mills and reamers.

cr250chevy
10-23-2013, 3:00 PM
Unbelievable... Regardless of your stance on 80% shops; there is NO WRITTEN law against them. Individuals are operating the machines! This is an over reach of government, also, if not already, tyrannical! What happened to the rule of law?!? How about the government go about this LEGALLY, and pass a law (unconstitutional or not) regulating the "personal manufacture" of guns! Instead they act without law against a legal activity...
The same can be said about marijuana; I mean its ILLEGAL on the federal level. For a lower level, State, to ignore the rule of law and do whatever they want is completely UNACCEPTABLE! How can the government ask us to follow the law when they themselves break it? (Just for the record I think marijuana should be legalized) Marijuana needs to be legalized in the proper way. At the federal level.
Now if a non FFL machine shop is breaking any laws (ie selling completed lowers) the. By ALL MEANS ARREST AND PROSECUTE. If a felon makes a complete lower, charge him/her!
I get the concern over these 80% shops, prohibited people can easily obtain their guns through them but, they are going to anyway. This only targets law abiding people.

I AM VERY CONCERED WITH THE LACK OF RESPECT FOR WRITTEN LAW THAT SEEMS TO BE GROWING IN THIS NATION.

krwada
10-23-2013, 3:02 PM
Unbelievable... Regardless of your stance on 80% shops; there is NO WRITTEN law against them. Individuals are operating the machines! This is an over reach of government, also, if not already, tyrannical! What happened to the rule of law?!? How about the government go about this LEGALLY, and pass a law (unconstitutional or not) regulating the "personal manufacture" of guns! Instead they act without law against a legal activity...
The same can be said about marijuana; I mean its ILLEGAL on the federal level. For a lower level, State, to ignore the rule of law and do whatever they want is completely UNACCEPTABLE! How can the government ask us to follow the law when they themselves break it? (Just for the record I think marijuana should be legalized) Marijuana needs to be legalized in the proper way. At the federal level.

I AM VERY CONCERED WITH THE LACK OF RESPECT FOR WRITTEN LAW THAT SEEMS TO BE GROWING IN THIS NATION.

I used to think this... However, from what I have seen, the Constitution ONLY works as well as the will of the People to defend their rights.

bill_k_lopez
10-23-2013, 3:13 PM
:fud: ?

I thought this as well - but alas - it seems to be the very scary truth. The up side to this is it specifically says check back, so maybe there is some hope that these shops protected themselves with legal advice prior to offering services.

The ATF argument is nonsense...

http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w489/capybara84/ASTClosed_zps44a39f4e.jpg

onethumb
10-23-2013, 3:35 PM
So my 80% lower is a brick now? This doesn't seem right...

Capybara
10-23-2013, 3:35 PM
As a non-machinist, what exactly would you need to machine your own 80%ers? I suppose jigs and a drill press or do you need your own mill or lathe?

ke6guj
10-23-2013, 3:40 PM
So my 80% lower is a brick now? This doesn't seem right...nope, just finish it yourself. spend the money for the couple of tools needed to do the last 20%.

that was the entire point of the 80% market, for homebuilders to be able to build their own stuff. But vendors saw easy money offering CNC services and it attracted an entire new crowd of people that just "wanted to push a button" and make their own receiver. now those same people are complaining that they can't find anybody to finish the receiver for them.

FresnoCNC
10-23-2013, 3:43 PM
As a non-machinist, what exactly would you need to machine your own 80%ers? I suppose jigs and a drill press or do you need your own mill or lathe?

Plenty of people have done it with a drill press.. A lathe is not needed. For best finish results, A mill should be used.

FresnoCNC
10-23-2013, 3:47 PM
I said it before. Build party at home with 10 people. All chip in for mini mill plus misc bits etc needed. Comes out to about the price for the cnc dealio.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

A Little more than you would think... Collets, EMS, ETC add up.

CSACANNONEER
10-23-2013, 3:49 PM
The whole idea of using CNC machine and program to make a firearm may or may not be legal but, it sure shouldn't be called a "build party". Back when I was hosting BPs, they were just a bunch of people coming together and everyone contributing tools, know how, food, drinks, etc. to help each other and have a good time. We asked for donations to help offset wear and tear on tools and jigs and sometimes, I'd kick the guys who just came to help gas money if there was anything left over. I just put a jar on a table and asked everyone to contribute. About 60% did. These profiteering rackets did nothing but forever hurt the true hobbiest homebuilder and, I wish they had been shut down long ago.

As far as DIY AR lowers go, you do not need a CNC machine to finish one. There are plenty of other ways but, paying someone to do it because you can't or don't want to isn't legal. Instead, learn how to machine metal or just buy a eplowers paperweight.

BTW, calling these unfinished receivers "80%s" is wrong. They are LESS THAN 80% finished and, even then, no one has an exact definition of what is and is not considered 80%.

CSACANNONEER
10-23-2013, 3:53 PM
As a non-machinist, what exactly would you need to machine your own 80%ers? I suppose jigs and a drill press or do you need your own mill or lathe?

A gouge, a file and some drill bits is all you really need. But, a dremel would help. A drill press and X-Y axis vise would be better. An inexpensive mill would be a dream. Jigs just make it easier.

umd
10-23-2013, 4:10 PM
Yeah I did the math and I figured itd be about 650 including the 500 mini mill.

Well you also need a vise, and clamps, and collets, and...

I'm into my HF mini mill about a grand with all the tooling.

kentactic
10-23-2013, 4:15 PM
To correct the OP quote. When 80% lowers are legal its just a pause in the flow of banning things.

umd
10-23-2013, 4:35 PM
Have vise and clamp.. what the hell costs a grand?? Lets see the list

Not saying that all of this is necessary. If you already have milling vise and clamps then of course you wouldn't need them but someone else would. The coolant and DRO are nice to have but of course not needed. Was simply saying what I was into it for.

Mill & Tooling
http://www.harborfreight.com/two-speed-variable-bench-mill-drill-machine-44991.html
http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=4723
http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2258

Coolant
http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=3804
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000AQK78

DRO
http://www.yuriystoys.com/2012/09/do-it-yourself-dro-with-arduino-and.html
http://www.amazon.com/iGaging-Magnetic-Remote-Digital-Readout/dp/B003JUII2A

Edit: Also forgot the dial test indicator & holder and some calipers.

umd
10-23-2013, 4:45 PM
Sorry, wasnt questioning your statement as much as wondering what I'm missing should I do this.

I didn't use everything that came with the tooling package, but since they offer a discount for buying it as a package it was almost as much to leave out the things I didn't want, and figured they could come in handy in the future. The parallels, 123 blocks, clamping kits have all been useful. The chuck is as far as I can tell the exact same one that with the HF mill. The coolant system was cheap and works well but I didn't have a compressor. A Z-axis DRO is very nice but the Arduino display part isn't necessary as the scale comes with a display (but it's MUCH easier to see it on the tablet).

michaelthetrojan
10-23-2013, 4:50 PM
so what can or cant I do with my 80?

Use a friends machine?
use a machine that belongs to a business?
as long as I do the work .. whats the problem?

michaelthetrojan
10-23-2013, 5:00 PM
Well the problem is there is what the law says and how the law is interpreted. Someome said it best. A pause on the road to banning..

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

that dosent answer much :pinch:

VendetAR
10-23-2013, 5:13 PM
I can say from experience that the finish quality of a CNC'd lower is as good as you will get from any manufacturer. Its also about 1000X faster to finish.

Ive done a few on a Bridgeport and it took a while. To make it worse, the lowers I received required drilling and tapping the pistol grip hole, the dentent hole for the selector and the detent spring holes for the take down pins. I think it took me 8 hours to do one lower.

The CNC parties were an absolute god send and was the equivalent cost of a stripped lower without the DROS cost, sales tax or 10 day hold. Its really too bad that the ATF is doing this.

jukyu-juichi
10-23-2013, 5:35 PM
so what can or cant I do with my 80?

Use a friends machine?
use a machine that belongs to a business?
as long as I do the work .. whats the problem?

Why don't you finish it?

If you wait, there is a chance that you will not be allowed to finish it, legally. Wether you do or not is up to you, if that point should come.

You can buy a used mini-mill pretty cheap, I bought one for $250, that doesn't seem too bad a price to finish your gun. It's a really poor example of what a mill should be, I don't even use mine anymore...it is what caused me to get a better mill.

There are probably various ways to finish an 80%. Do you have a dremel ? Drill press ? Worst case you could always use a file...just that it's slow. :rolleyes:

I'll offer you some honest advice, but I don't seem to have too much luck in this place...but I see you're in Roseville.

Finish it yourself and do it at the Tech Shop in Menlo Park or The Crucible in Oakland. However, I am not exactly sure what their take is on firearms, I wouldn't ask them and just sign up and use their equipment.

The Tech Shop lost their lease and are looking for new space, so I would be cautious about how long a term you sign up for, but you can pay by the month. They have minimal equipment, a few Bridgeports. If they get new space, that would be the best place as it only costs about $100/month.

There would be nothing wrong wtih a group of people joining and working together, but IANAL and it seems I don't view the gun laws the same as some. I see that as a bunch of like minded people renting use of a shop and doing the work on that machinery.

The Crucible works a bit differently, and it might not be cost effective to use on a monthly basis, I am not sure and have more knowledge of The Tech Shop. The Tech Shop would be the most cost effective, IMO.

The other thing you could do is sell your project, I guess. Might be a good time to pick up a good deal on 80% receivers...I could be a buyer...;)

And here's to the era of doing it yourself! Like the law is written! :cheers2:

CSACANNONEER
10-23-2013, 5:42 PM
Hey, would that mean all the guns that were built at my home are mine? If so, I've got a lot of work to do to get them back.

BMartin1776
10-23-2013, 5:52 PM
so im stuck with my KTO 1911 paperweight now!

umd
10-23-2013, 6:23 PM
so im stuck with my KTO 1911 paperweight now!

Dibs

ojisan
10-23-2013, 6:35 PM
^ Within just a few moments a CG bird landed nearby.
http://www.vulture-territory.com/cliff-buckton-Tmp20.jpg

:p

umd
10-23-2013, 6:50 PM
I was mostly kidding.

Mostly.

michaelthetrojan
10-23-2013, 6:53 PM
Why don't you finish it?

If you wait, there is a chance that you will not be allowed to finish it, legally. Wether you do or not is up to you, if that point should come.

You can buy a used mini-mill pretty cheap, I bought one for $250, that doesn't seem too bad a price to finish your gun. It's a really poor example of what a mill should be, I don't even use mine anymore...it is what caused me to get a better mill.

There are probably various ways to finish an 80%. Do you have a dremel ? Drill press ? Worst case you could always use a file...just that it's slow. :rolleyes:

I'll offer you some honest advice, but I don't seem to have too much luck in this place...but I see you're in Roseville.

Finish it yourself and do it at the Tech Shop in Menlo Park or The Crucible in Oakland. However, I am not exactly sure what their take is on firearms, I wouldn't ask them and just sign up and use their equipment.

The Tech Shop lost their lease and are looking for new space, so I would be cautious about how long a term you sign up for, but you can pay by the month. They have minimal equipment, a few Bridgeports. If they get new space, that would be the best place as it only costs about $100/month.

There would be nothing wrong wtih a group of people joining and working together, but IANAL and it seems I don't view the gun laws the same as some. I see that as a bunch of like minded people renting use of a shop and doing the work on that machinery.

The Crucible works a bit differently, and it might not be cost effective to use on a monthly basis, I am not sure and have more knowledge of The Tech Shop. The Tech Shop would be the most cost effective, IMO.

The other thing you could do is sell your project, I guess. Might be a good time to pick up a good deal on 80% receivers...I could be a buyer...;)

And here's to the era of doing it yourself! Like the law is written! :cheers2:

so I can not go to a friend and use his equipment?

SoldierLife7
10-23-2013, 7:07 PM
I thought this as well - but alas - it seems to be the very scary truth. The up side to this is it specifically says check back, so maybe there is some hope that these shops protected themselves with legal advice prior to offering services.

The ATF argument is nonsense...

http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w489/capybara84/ASTClosed_zps44a39f4e.jpg


I was hoping it wasn't true. I've been hearing rumors, but haven't seen anyone actually shut down yet... oh well. Guess it's over to a friend's house to make my paperweight lighter

stilly
10-23-2013, 8:02 PM
Heh, why not take it out of state and finish it?

yari
10-23-2013, 8:30 PM
Seems everyone is jumping to conclusions once again, just like the "assault rifle ban". Until a law is written it is nothing more than the ATF (a law enforcement agency) over stepping its boundrys. In a month or so when they get a realtiy check from a judge it'll be over. Calm people. Fight for your rights and stand strong.

jukyu-juichi
10-23-2013, 9:00 PM
so I can not go to a friend and use his equipment?

I will repeat, IANAL, and in fact some of the people here will tell you I'm a troll.

My interpretation of the law is that you can't have your friend assist you, that the law was intended for citizens who have gun rights, to be able to build their own personal firearm. I think it depends on what you have your friend help you with, and what he does.

There is nothing that says you can't finish your frame, get a small mill and do it. Or, go somewhere that does rent machinnes for working metal, such as The Tech Shop or The Crucible in the bay area.

There have been people finish 1911 receivers with a dremel in a dremel router table to cut the rails. A good machinist could file the rails by hand.

It all depends on what type of receiver you're finishing.

Rest assured, finishing a firearm receiver is not outside the realm of most high school drop outs. You could probably do it yourself! ;)

You could ask kcstott if he could help you, he just told me a day or two ago that I'm full of BS with my view of the law and the build parties are completely legal. He could probably give you a better interpretation of the law. The bottom line is no matter whose advice you take you are responsiblee for your actions. I'm not trying to scare you, just make sure you are building your firearm within the law. The law is for personal use and personal manufacture.

There are some 2nd ammendment lawyers around you could get some advice from also, if you have concerns.

bill_k_lopez
10-23-2013, 9:11 PM
Please provide the federal law you are interpreting - and please don't respond "the one that says...."

I'd like to see the law and federal code that identifies what you are interpreting.




I will repeat, IANAL, and in fact some of the people here will tell you I'm a troll.

My interpretation of the law is that you can't have your friend assist you, that the law was intended for citizens who have gun rights, to be able to build their own personal firearm. I think it depends on what you have your friend help you with, and what he does.

There is nothing that says you can't finish your frame, get a small mill and do it. Or, go somewhere that does rent machinnes for working metal, such as The Tech Shop or The Crucible in the bay area.

There have been people finish 1911 receivers with a dremel in a dremel router table to cut the rails. A good machinist could file the rails by hand.

It all depends on what type of receiver you're finishing.

Rest assured, finishing a firearm receiver is not outside the realm of most high school drop outs. You could probably do it yourself! ;)

You could ask kcstott if he could help you, he just told me a day or two ago that I'm full of BS with my view of the law and the build parties are completely legal. He could probably give you a better interpretation of the law. The bottom line is no matter whose advice you take you are responsiblee for your actions. I'm not trying to scare you, just make sure you are building your firearm within the law. The law is for personal use and personal manufacture.

There are some 2nd ammendment lawyers around you could get some advice from also, if you have concerns.

db42
10-23-2013, 9:21 PM
nope, just finish it yourself. spend the money for the couple of tools needed to do the last 20%.

that was the entire point of the 80% market, for homebuilders to be able to build their own stuff. But vendors saw easy money offering CNC services and it attracted an entire new crowd of people that just "wanted to push a button" and make their own receiver. now those same people are complaining that they can't find anybody to finish the receiver for them.

This is exactly what it's about.

The ATF shut down places that essentially finished your gun for you. There's a crap load of resources out there for anyone that wants to do one themselves. For example:
The Mujahadeen AR15 which dexplains how to do it with hand tools that you probably already have.
http://mujahadeenar15a2.tripod.com/

Of course, there's also tons of jigs out there and anyone with half a brain should be able to figure it out if they already have a finished lower to work off of.

yari
10-23-2013, 9:53 PM
Let's not add fuel to the fire people! Finishing an 80 is a good thing how ever you do it. Let's not bash Cnc. Let's fight to keep them open and prserve our rights. I don't care how you do it, unregistered guns scare the govt. and the agenda.

jukyu-juichi
10-24-2013, 12:48 AM
Please provide the federal law you are interpreting - and please don't respond "the one that says...."

I'd like to see the law and federal code that identifies what you are interpreting.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CD0QFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.atf.gov%2Ffiles%2Fpublication s%2Fdownload%2Fp%2Fatf-p-5300-4.pdf&ei=C99oUqejM6WsiQKMh4CQDg&usg=AFQjCNEGI90lMUITE7lP-W2FWk9lOWndNg&sig2=U20xdl_8NtIn_zTKSf5aDg&bvm=bv.55123115,d.cGE

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_Control_Act_of_1968

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/firearms-technology.html#commercial-parts-assembly

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/manufacturers.html

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/firearms-technology.html

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=pen&group=31001-32000&file=32000-32030

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=pen&group=32001-33000&file=32100-32110

I also wanted to add that there is more, but this should get you going and keep you busy for a while. There are other topics like "dangerous weapons" in Californa, which could create discussions in themselves around any of the build parties which manufactured a semi-automatic firearm. I don't see how you would get around that piece of the penal code either...(I don't have it off the tips of my fingers, but that will give you something to do...;) )

Bill, I see you're in Long Beach...do you know Mike Bennett over at Mike's Custom Gunsmithing ?

A-J
10-24-2013, 7:35 AM
I said it before. Build party at home with 10 people. All chip in for mini mill plus misc bits etc needed. Comes out to about the price for the cnc dealio.

The problem is that the BATFE is trying to say that you need to build it in YOUR OWN HOME, which means 9 of the 10 people will be sitting around watching the host build their own AR. Not saying it's right, or that I agree, but that's what the ATF is doing. Why pass new laws when they can simply "interpret" the current law to mean whatever they want?

umd
10-24-2013, 8:51 AM
Please provide the federal law you are interpreting - and please don't respond "the one that says...."

I'd like to see the law and federal code that identifies what you are interpreting.

I also wanted to add that there is more, but this should get you going and keep you busy for a while. There are other topics like "dangerous weapons" in Californa, which could create discussions in themselves around any of the build parties which manufactured a semi-automatic firearm. I don't see how you would get around that piece of the penal code either...(I don't have it off the tips of my fingers, but that will give you something to do

Wow, you are really lazy. You didn't even remotely answer the question you were replying to. You basically just provided a deluge of links to the entirety of gun control laws and said find it yourself.

http://www.atf.gov/files/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_Control_Act_of_1968

These two links just show the entire GCA.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/firearms-technology.html#commercial-parts-assembly

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/firearms-technology.html


These two links are the same! Says what we already know, that "an unlicensed individual may make a “firearm” as defined in the GCA for his own personal use, but not for sale or distribution." Does not provide any additional requirements or definitions regarding "making".

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/manufacturers.html

Says what we already know, provides no additional clarity over the line between personal manufacturing, assistance, and regulated manufacturing.


http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=pen&group=31001-32000&file=32000-32030

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=pen&group=32001-33000&file=32100-32110

CA roster code, not even relevant.

ke6guj
10-24-2013, 8:54 AM
I have never asked for my threads to be deleted!!

maybe not "threads" but you did ask for all your posts to be deleted. that thread where you made the request did get deleted, but it is referenced here, http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=835272

QQQ
10-24-2013, 9:26 AM
For those who have an 80%... just finish it however you want to finish it. The ATF does not write the laws and the raids were clearly targeted at for-profit, commercial operations.

ojisan
10-24-2013, 9:33 AM
I have never asked for my threads to be deleted!!
I'm just looking for more of those law enforcement officers who completed thier lowers here with your own hands!!

The thread was deleted.
But Google still has a reference to it.
doj closed - Calguns.net (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=835067)


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Oct 9, 2013 - 7 posts - ‎6 authors
MODS PLEASE LOCK OR DELETE ALL threads form Dr.death ... So wait, DrDeath got shut down by the DoJ?

bill_k_lopez
10-24-2013, 9:39 AM
Show me the law YOU are interpreting, not links to everything under the sun.

You said it, now back it up..

Show me the law and specific code that says it is legal to build your own firearm, and the text in which you interpret it to say it has to be done in a specific manner..

I'm patient, but if you can't do it you're going to eat crow.



http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CD0QFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.atf.gov%2Ffiles%2Fpublication s%2Fdownload%2Fp%2Fatf-p-5300-4.pdf&ei=C99oUqejM6WsiQKMh4CQDg&usg=AFQjCNEGI90lMUITE7lP-W2FWk9lOWndNg&sig2=U20xdl_8NtIn_zTKSf5aDg&bvm=bv.55123115,d.cGE

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_Control_Act_of_1968

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/firearms-technology.html#commercial-parts-assembly

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/manufacturers.html

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/firearms-technology.html

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=pen&group=31001-32000&file=32000-32030

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=pen&group=32001-33000&file=32100-32110

I also wanted to add that there is more, but this should get you going and keep you busy for a while. There are other topics like "dangerous weapons" in Californa, which could create discussions in themselves around any of the build parties which manufactured a semi-automatic firearm. I don't see how you would get around that piece of the penal code either...(I don't have it off the tips of my fingers, but that will give you something to do...;) )


Bill, I see you're in Long Beach...do you know Mike Bennett over at Mike's Custom Gunsmithing ?

I have done business with him before, many years ago. First and last. One time was more than enough - had no issue with his work, but I'd rather smash my hand with a hammer than deal with him.

osis32
10-24-2013, 9:53 AM
God does every thread have to go up in flames

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

yes, that is the nature of the internet.

ke6guj
10-24-2013, 10:00 AM
The thread was deleted.
But Google still has a reference to it.
doj closed - Calguns.net (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=835067)


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Oct 9, 2013 - 7 posts - ‎6 authors
MODS PLEASE LOCK OR DELETE ALL threads form Dr.death ... So wait, DrDeath got shut down by the DoJ?

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=275232&stc=1&d=1382637499

bill_k_lopez
10-24-2013, 10:09 AM
So since Dr Death is here, who was it that visited you DOJ or BATFE?

AKSOG
10-24-2013, 10:15 AM
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=750262

jukyu-juichi
10-24-2013, 10:19 AM
Show me the law YOU are interpreting, not links to everything under the sun.

You asked for the laws, I posted links to the ones I've read and were using to interpret the gun laws.

The fact is that you had no intention of reading them anyway, so no use in continuing with you.

Maybe people should grow some stones and learn how to machine their own receivers. That includes your paperweights also.

ojisan
10-24-2013, 10:30 AM
Thank you, Jack.
:notworthy:

I don't make stuff up just to post.
I don't understand Dr Deaths denial of what he wrote himself.
:confused:

I am growing weary of the flame-wars here.
:(

SoldierLife7
10-24-2013, 10:31 AM
To everyone that asks where the law is that makes it legal:

Laws only spell out what is illegal. If it isn't spelled out in the law, that means that it is LEGAL.

Think about it like a speed limit... The law states that you can't go OVER the posted speed limit. Let's say that the speed limit is 70mph..that means the law says you can't go over 70mph, it doesn't say that you CAN go 1mph, 2mph, 3mph, 4mph, 5mph, etc, etc.... it JUST says that you can't go over 70.

Make sense?

dreyna14
10-24-2013, 10:36 AM
Need sticky on converting Harbor freight Mini mill into descent home machine/cnc.

What do you need CNC for? That last 20% is trivial work with a manual mill.

bill_k_lopez
10-24-2013, 10:36 AM
You asked for the laws, I posted links to the ones I've read and were using to interpret the gun laws.


No, I was quite specific:

Please provide the federal law you are interpreting - and please don't respond "the one that says...."

I'd like to see the law and federal code that identifies what you are interpreting.


The fact is that you had no intention of reading them anyway, so no use in continuing with you.


Oh no, I'm very interested in the specific law to which you are referring to - the verbiage that has led you to say:


My interpretation of the law is that you can't have your friend assist you, that the law was intended for citizens who have gun rights, to be able to build their own personal firearm. I think it depends on what you have your friend help you with, and what he does.



Maybe people should grow some stones and learn how to machine their own receivers. That includes your paperweights also.

To becciboo - this is when/how a thread goes up in flames. When the person doing all the talking can't back up what they are saying with anything factual, and then resorts to name calling or throwing insults when called on it.


You said it, now back it up..

....but if you can't do it you're going to eat crow.



The fact is that you are blowing smoke out of ..., so no use in continuing with you.

jukyu-juichi
10-24-2013, 10:37 AM
What do you need CNC for? That last 20% is trivial work with a manual mill.

Most of the people here can't even do that. They are more concerned with sitting around whining about what they believe they can do, rather than do it themselves.

ke6guj
10-24-2013, 10:40 AM
You asked for the laws, I posted links to the ones I've read and were using to interpret the gun laws.

The fact is that you had no intention of reading them anyway, so no use in continuing with you.

Maybe people should grow some stones and learn how to machine their own receivers. That includes your paperweights also.
the point is, when you are asked to back up your arguements, you should be able to pinpoint exactly where in the PC, USC, CCR, CFR, etc, that you base your position on. Just posting a link to the entire GCA and saying that it is there doesn't normally cut it in this forum. if you take a position on something, have the ability to back up that position or don't post it.

umd
10-24-2013, 10:40 AM
Most of the people here can't even do that. They are more concerned with sitting around whining about what they believe they can do, rather than do it themselves.

The issue with your statements is that you said a friend can't even assist you. That is a way stricter reading than anyone else has come up with, so you should provide some backing for it.

jukyu-juichi
10-24-2013, 10:45 AM
To becciboo - this is when/how a thread goes up in flames. When the person doing all the talking can't back up what they are saying with anything factual, and then resorts to name calling or throwing insults when called on it.

No, actually in this case the person gave you exactly what you asked for, the laws that were being interpreted in drawing my conclusion.

People like you continue to accuse and point your finger, but all that is coming out of you is gas.

You don't have to believe what I say, it's only my opinion, and should have no bearing on what you do. By all means go ahead and do your receiver on someone else's machine.

You certainly don't need to insult me as you keep doing. That is why the threads go downhill. I'm not the one whining about my paperweight, had you not noticed. I'm pretty confident I can do it myself on my own machines. You should do yours however you believe is the legal and correct way for you to machine it per the California Penal Code.

jukyu-juichi
10-24-2013, 10:51 AM
The issue with your statements is that you said a friend can't even assist you. That is a way stricter reading than anyone else has come up with, so you should provide some backing for it.

No, that is an incorrect interpretation if you understood what I said to mean that. What I said is the law is setup so one can manufacture their own firearm, for themselves.

How you or anyone else has ANYONE help them would be for the court to determine if it is you or not, and I want to make that point clear. The law is written with the intent that the person is manufacturing the firearm for their own personal use. That is the way I am reading and interpreting the law.

The law says nothing about who touches the machine controls, who sets it up on the machine, who does anything for that matter...they only provide you the right to manufacture firearms for personal use.

jukyu-juichi
10-24-2013, 10:57 AM
the point is, when you are asked to back up your arguements, you should be able to pinpoint exactly where in the PC, USC, CCR, CFR, etc, that you base your position on. Just posting a link to the entire GCA and saying that it is there doesn't normally cut it in this forum. if you take a position on something, have the ability to back up that position or don't post it.

I wish the laws were that easy. Too easy for you to cop out and say, get the specific link, all the gun laws are intertwined together.

You need the links I posted to determine if you are legal to manufacture a personal firearm.

Clearly, folks here know more than the BATF, even becciboo said she knows she is in the right and that this will blow over as the feds set the ATF/DOJ straight...heck, that's enough data to move ahead and have someone help you with your firearm.

Uxi
10-24-2013, 11:18 AM
We've accepted blatant unmitigated infringements for so long that they've become the standard. The corrupt politically partisan and/or paranoid courts are only heaping on top.

I am very interested in trying a couple of the eplowers polymer jobs, even if the anecdotal quality seems hit or miss.

heyjerr
10-24-2013, 11:34 AM
So what would it take to acquire temporary residency at a machine shop? You pay for rent and it comes with free mill time.

blazeaglory
10-24-2013, 11:35 AM
I wish the laws were that easy. Too easy for you to cop out and say, get the specific link, all the gun laws are intertwined together.

You need the links I posted to determine if you are legal to manufacture a personal firearm.

Clearly, folks here know more than the BATF, even becciboo said she knows she is in the right and that this will blow over as the feds set the ATF/DOJ straight...heck, that's enough data to move ahead and have someone help you with your firearm.

So you used the entire law in each and every one of those links?

I think you know exactly what he means.

Why cant you just refer to the section of the law which made you state what you stated?

Rock6.3
10-24-2013, 11:37 AM
I am tired of seeing all these reported 'cease and desist letter' posts that fail to include a copy of the letter.

Jason Davis reportedly got one in April.
Now several CNC shops reportedly received letters.

Where are the documents that will help us understand exactly what the legal issue is?

The speculation on this matter needs to be stopped and facts with documentation need to be posted.

onethumb
10-24-2013, 11:52 AM
For those who have an 80%... just finish it however you want to finish it. The ATF does not write the laws and the raids were clearly targeted at for-profit, commercial operations.

This is the beginning of the slippery slope, in my opinion.

All of the equipment you might buy to finish your 80% (mills, drill press, etc, or perhaps more importantly the JIGS) were all made by for-profit, commercial operations. If you go to a class and pay to learn how to use a mill or a lathe, that is also a for-profit operation. There isn't one step in the process that isn't through a for-profit operation of some sort....so why should this matter now?

Many have said here (and I agree), that you can get an equal result with a mill and some jigs as you can with a CNC. So what is the difference? Why is it different if someone writes a milling program or makes a jig for you to use? They both serve the exact same purpose. The only difference is that CNC is generally less prone to set-up errors, providing that you are properly trained, and takes less time.

If you are renting time on a machine, then that machine is legally "yours" for the time you are renting it--you are responsible for it and you are legally liable for damage caused to or by it. Same as renting a house or car.

Renting the space that the machine occupies is much the same. As long as the proper legal agreement is in place, renting a space in a shop (or renting an entire shop) is the same as renting an apartment, storage facility, house, or workshop. The only legal difference is the length of time you are in ownership, and the amount of space you are renting.

What next, you must own the whole building your shop is in? So homeowners and stand-alone shops are ok, but apartments or attached spaces are not? This is arbitrary and should not hold up to legal review, in my opinion.

I spent much of my career as a mechanical engineer, so I've learned to use all sorts of tools to machine metal. I do not really wish to go out and spend $500-$1000 on a mill setup with tooling, collets, and so on just to machine one AR-10 lower, assuming I can find the proper jigs. I could even possibly convince my wife that the mill would be useful to help support my car restoration habit (as a side note--if your spouse ever complains about your gun hobby, just let them know how expensive an old Italian cars are to restore, and tell them to be thankful you like guns. A decent paint job will run $6k minimum, without rust repair!).

Alternately, I can load a CNC program, mount the lower to the mill, and run the program and go home (and use the money I saved to buy more ammo!).

FresnoCNC
10-24-2013, 11:57 AM
I am tired of seeing all these reported 'cease and desist letter' posts that fail to include a copy of the letter.

Jason Davis reportedly got one in April.
Now several CNC shops reportedly received letters.

Where are the documents that will help us understand exactly what the legal issue is?

The speculation on this matter needs to be stopped and facts with documentation need to be posted.


you ask, I deliver


http://aresarmor.com/store/media/cms/xmodnewsrss/ATF-cease-and-desist.pdf

michaelthetrojan
10-24-2013, 12:16 PM
you ask, I deliver


http://aresarmor.com/store/media/cms/xmodnewsrss/ATF-cease-and-desist.pdf

so as long as I get my instructions... (the how to.. the directions ) from another source I can borrow, rent or use someones machine?

AKSOG
10-24-2013, 12:25 PM
you ask, I deliver


http://aresarmor.com/store/media/cms/xmodnewsrss/ATF-cease-and-desist.pdf

Wow that was served yesterday?

80% Arms
10-24-2013, 12:27 PM
No need to panic, just like the bullet button, this industry is adept at solving these types of problems and you can bet multiple solutions are in the works right now.

We're quite confident in our own CNC solution that's just a few short weeks away from launching.

Even if CNC machines ceased to exist tomorrow, it's not that hard to make the lower yourself. Really, some of us here started out thinking that finishing a lower was something only a super machinist was capable of doing, only to find out that a determined monkey could probably do it with a hand drill :D

We're also working on improving our jig to make it even easier than ever. Once you've tried our new jig, chances are you wouldn't want to drop $70 on going to a CNC place even if it was next door to you. New jig will be on the market within 2 weeks.

vintagearms
10-24-2013, 12:29 PM
They state regular course of business with profit as the motive. How about doing this as a build party with a "suggested" donation which would be the same cost as if they were to do this for profit.

jukyu-juichi
10-24-2013, 12:34 PM
Many have said here (and I agree), that you can get an equal result with a mill and some jigs as you can with a CNC. So what is the difference? Why is it different if someone writes a milling program or makes a jig for you to use? They both serve the exact same purpose. The only difference is that CNC is generally less prone to set-up errors, providing that you are properly trained, and takes less time.You could do it with a file most likely...or dremels...you can do it without spending a lot of money, just depends on how creative you want to get. Many gunsmiths pretty much only use files.
If you are renting time on a machine, then that machine is legally "yours" for the time you are renting it--you are responsible for it and you are legally liable for damage caused to or by it. Same as renting a house or car.
So, renting the machine out is not a commercial activity? You charge a fee for using the machine. That is not a commercial activity?
Renting the space that the machine occupies is much the same.
That is probably something you need to work out between you and the BATFE/DOJ then, should they ever question you about it.

Alternately, I can load a CNC program, mount the lower to the mill, and run the program and go home (and use the money I saved to buy more ammo!).
There hasn't been too much mention of the software written and/or where that takes place either. Software has it's own set of copyrights and protections under the law, just as firearms do. Writing the software, loading it on the machine, using the machine to complete the work. Software plays a role in that on CNCs. Most "build parties" seem to involve CNCs since most of the people don't know how to machine.

umd
10-24-2013, 12:39 PM
No, that is an incorrect interpretation if you understood what I said to mean that. What I said is the law is setup so one can manufacture their own firearm, for themselves.

Um, saywhat?

My interpretation of the law is that you can't have your friend assist you

So me saying that you said your friend can't assist you is an incorrect interpretation? Clearly I do not understand what you mean, nor does anyone else.

jukyu-juichi
10-24-2013, 12:42 PM
you ask, I deliver


http://aresarmor.com/store/media/cms/xmodnewsrss/ATF-cease-and-desist.pdf

Special Agent Michael Shaw doesn't now anyting.

He needs to consult with you guys on calguns to know the law.

jtake
10-24-2013, 1:01 PM
Hopefully the CNC places can win.

18 USC 921(a)(10) defines manufacturer:
The term “manufacturer” means any person engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms or ammunition for purposes of sale or distribution; and the term “licensed manufacturer” means any such person licensed under the provisions of this chapter.

One aspect missing in the cease and desist letter is the fact that these outfits are not providing a service with the purpose of the "sale or distribution" of the firearms. All they are offering is a service/access to their machines. Ares and the others do not have any rights to the receivers customers are working on in the shops and, hence, Ares cannot be distributing or selling any firearm.

Gunsmith Dan
10-24-2013, 1:04 PM
I think I need to start doing copy and paste been posting this alot lately so now for the story...........


I wanted to setup a shop strictly as a place to Rent CNC and Manual mills in San Diego County, kinda like when you go to FedEX Kinkos to rent a copier. You would slide a card on a reader attached to the machine, answer a few safety questions, liability release and a you break it you buy section on screen, click "I agree and understand" and the machine would power on after that.

The BATF&E shot me down and my appeals got shot down as well and here is the reason they stated.

They interpeted the law for the Personal Manufacture of Firearms that anything used in the forming of a receiver/frame must be all done by the owner or the "80%" (yes we all know this is not the legal term). While they can receive assistance from other persons those persons may not be compensated or do anything that would result in the forming or removal of material from a "80%" receiver/frame. All machines and or tools must be used on premises in the control of the owner (anyplace that is owned, rented or leased and the "80%" owner is listed as the primary) and must be owned by the owner of the "80%". A person MAY use other places and machines/tools from other persons as long as they have their permission AND that those persons do not receive any type of compensation for the use of the machines/tools or places.

That in a nut shell is what BATF&E has told me and if you read the law carefully what they are doing is a VERY STRICT enforcement of the law but not completely overstepping either.

The one thing that they did say would BE LEGAL is that companies can rent machines for people to take home and use for making "80%" receiver/frames.

SO that is what I am working on atm to find mill machines light enough but accurate enough for shipping/pickup, how to setup deposits and insurance as well as a training program on how to use the mills.

I STRONGLY encourage those that were doing the renting of machines to also look into how to setup a similar program as well.

hope that helps :D

bill_k_lopez
10-24-2013, 1:36 PM
Hopefully the CNC places can win.

18 USC 921(a)(10) defines manufacturer:
The term “manufacturer” means any person engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms or ammunition for purposes of sale or distribution; and the term “licensed manufacturer” means any such person licensed under the provisions of this chapter.

One aspect missing in the cease and desist letter is the fact that these outfits are not providing a service with the purpose of the "sale or distribution" of the firearms. All they are offering is a service/access to their machines. Ares and the others do not have any rights to the receivers customers are working on in the shops and, hence, Ares cannot be distributing or selling any firearm.


Glad someone posted the letter - now we have some facts.

I agree - they are making a huge stretch in trying to define the business activities going on.

Its also very clear they aren't 100% sure if what the shops are doing constitutes something illegal - otherwise they'd be leading shop owners out in handcuffs.

jukyu-juichi
10-24-2013, 1:56 PM
The BATF&E shot me down and my appeals got shot down as well and here is the reason they stated.
Gunsmith Dan,

What is interesting is that this would make it illegal for anyone to rent time in a shop such as Tech Shop or Crucible, since they would then be assisting in the manufacture of firearms by renting the time out to the person, in much the same way you had planned to do in San Diego.

That in a nut shell is what BATF&E has told me and if you read the law carefully what they are doing is a VERY STRICT enforcement of the law but not completely overstepping either.
I agree they are being strict in regard to renting machine time in a shop, as there are more and more places opening that do sell shop time for those not willing to invest in their own machinery. Those are not aimed at firearms specific, just shop time. As far as the shop would know, you could be working on anything...It is not surprising that they would tie the manufacture to the shop owner, even for the fact it happens, but seems strict as you mention. Possibly the difference is in knowing about it, and in your case you were setting up intentionally to do so.

SO that is what I am working on atm to find mill machines light enough but accurate enough for shipping/pickup, how to setup deposits and insurance as well as a training program on how to use the mills.
My suggestion is to setup the CNC in a step-van. Set it up so that power can be run to it, and the entire shop is inside the step van. You will often see military shops on rough terrain vehicles being auctioned off on the government liquidation site.

Traming will go out easily if you start moving CNC machines around in vehicles and such, By having things mounted properly in a Step van would give plenty of space for tooling, and to secure the mill. You could use a generator, which the military units often have built into them. You could use some type of shock mount so that the machine doesn't go out of tram during transportation, at least as easily. They would probably require more frequent tramming than a machine that never moves from it's shop, or that it's shop moves...;)

The cost of doing this effeciently would warrant some hefty rental fees to break even, IMO, but it is worth pursuing as you are on to the correct way of working within the law. With a "shop vehicle", they take the entire set of machinery and tooling from you into their own possession, do the work and take it back. That sounds like it issolates you from the builder in regard to all legal aspects.

Food for thought...

umd
10-24-2013, 2:04 PM
My suggestion is to setup the CNC in a step-van. Set it up so that power can be run to it, and the entire shop is inside the step van. You will often see military shops on rough terrain vehicles being auctioned off on the government liquidation site.

There was a guy doing this earlier in the year and as far as I can tell he got shut down.

Here is a blog post where he talks about going mobile: http://proteinwisdom.com/?p=47921

There were some threads about it here, but when I bumped a thread to ask about it, it got poofed.

jukyu-juichi
10-24-2013, 2:10 PM
There was a guy doing this earlier in the year and as far as I can tell he got shut down.

Here is a blog post where he talks about going mobile: http://proteinwisdom.com/?p=47921

There were some threads about it here, but when I bumped a thread to ask about it, it got poofed.

umd,

Yes, that is interesting, however, this is slightly different. In the case at that link, he is taking the shop to the customer, and they are doing the work, so in theory he takes his expertise and shop to you so that you can push the button...

In the case of what I suggested, they only rent a shop from you. It is not as if you would be renting them the "make a firearm shop", you rent a truck and tools to someone.

They bring back the truck and you don't even know they built a firearm.

The courts makes those distinctions when enforcing the law.

BMartin1776
10-24-2013, 2:13 PM
I think I need to start doing copy and paste been posting this alot lately so now for the story...........


I wanted to setup a shop strictly as a place to Rent CNC and Manual mills in San Diego County, kinda like when you go to FedEX Kinkos to rent a copier. You would slide a card on a reader attached to the machine, answer a few safety questions, liability release and a you break it you buy section on screen, click "I agree and understand" and the machine would power on after that.

The BATF&E shot me down and my appeals got shot down as well and here is the reason they stated.

They interpeted the law for the Personal Manufacture of Firearms that anything used in the forming of a receiver/frame must be all done by the owner or the "80%" (yes we all know this is not the legal term). While they can receive assistance from other persons those persons may not be compensated or do anything that would result in the forming or removal of material from a "80%" receiver/frame. All machines and or tools must be used on premises in the control of the owner (anyplace that is owned, rented or leased and the "80%" owner is listed as the primary) and must be owned by the owner of the "80%". A person MAY use other places and machines/tools from other persons as long as they have their permission AND that those persons do not receive any type of compensation for the use of the machines/tools or places.

That in a nut shell is what BATF&E has told me and if you read the law carefully what they are doing is a VERY STRICT enforcement of the law but not completely overstepping either.

The one thing that they did say would BE LEGAL is that companies can rent machines for people to take home and use for making "80%" receiver/frames.

SO that is what I am working on atm to find mill machines light enough but accurate enough for shipping/pickup, how to setup deposits and insurance as well as a training program on how to use the mills.

I STRONGLY encourage those that were doing the renting of machines to also look into how to setup a similar program as well.

hope that helps :D

Ok Ill ask it what does it cost those of you with a CNC/ mill to do an 80%?

Now bigger more controversial question I want to ask is are you prepared to act in civil disobedience to this encroachment on our liberties? If YES will you allow ppl to use your machine free of charge?!

For you lawyers out there, there is a way around this you know there is its your job to find those types of things. I have one in mind but will keep quiet. I do know based on the letter if a shop lets someone use their equip but doesn't get paid there is nothing ATF can do. If we go by the letter of the law above they left something out!

Tincon
10-24-2013, 2:17 PM
What is interesting is that this would make it illegal for anyone to rent time in a shop such as Tech Shop or Crucible, since they would then be assisting in the manufacture of firearms by renting the time out to the person, in much the same way you had planned to do in San Diego.


That would require ignoring the "regular course of trade or business with the principle objective of livelihood" language.

Gutpile66
10-24-2013, 2:40 PM
Seems to me that if these CNC shops were breaking the law there would be a lot of people in the pokey already.

What is the BATFE's motive for stopping this in the first place without arrests and prosecutions? "Gee, we're giving you a chance to stop before you're tried, fined, and/or thrown in jail?" No, I don't believe that. Do you? They're just deciding to give these shops a break, huh?

BATFE quotes the GCA in the letter, saying these shops are manufacturing firearms with intent to sell and distribute as their main source of income. Maybe I'm wrong but the processes offered by these shops just don't seem to meet that logic.

Context clues are telling me that this is simply another juvinile-illegal-tyrannical-control-freak government entity who want nothing more than to impose their control, saying that "we need to shut this down because we don't like what's happening . . . and if we get sued we'll sort it all out later". If that does happen and they lose nothing will happen to them, as usual.

People still think that calling this country a police-state is still radical? Can't happen to us? Yuuuuuuuup . . .

If the BATFE and other B.S. government nazi organizations believed that this was against the law I would be reading posts on Calguns about how these people who offered CNC services deserved to be thrown in jail, that they make us "law-abiding" gun owners look bad.

Next thing you know we won't be able to take our firearms to a gunsmith if we plan on taking them home with us after modification or repair. Or we'll be charged a fee, submitted to a background check, fingerprinted, and issued a permit before we're allowed to drop them off in the first place. And people on this forum will say you don't deserve to own firearms if you can't fix 'em yourself.

Phew.

shda5582
10-24-2013, 2:47 PM
I can verify a certain shop in Orange is not accepting new work, and their phone # goes directly to VM, which is full. Have put in a email request to see if they're going to honor current appointments, but it's highly doubtful.

jukyu-juichi
10-24-2013, 3:48 PM
What is the BATFE's motive for stopping this in the first place without arrests and prosecutions? "Gee, we're giving you a chance to stop before you're tried, fined, and/or thrown in jail?" No, I don't believe that. Do you? They're just deciding to give these shops a break, huh?

It is not uncommon for a large entity like the BATFE to send a cease and dessist letter first. This doesn't mean those people will not be charged, rest assured they are under the BATFE's radar for certain. The BATFE most likely has much more info on those people they served.

Much of the rest of your post was pretty childish.

Granite
10-24-2013, 3:57 PM
Instead of paying for the use of the machine, leave a donation. It'll be like the car washes on the side of the street.

I'm sure someone could rig up a 2A organization that will run the mill for a donation as well. Or buy a $65 hat that comes with a free Cnc

BMartin1776
10-24-2013, 4:16 PM
Instead of paying for the use of the machine, leave a donation. It'll be like the car washes on the side of the street.

I'm sure someone could rig up a 2A organization that will run the mill for a donation as well. Or buy a $65 hat that comes with a free Cnc

THATS WHAT IM SAYING WITH A TWIST THOUGH NO DONATION NECESSARY!!

Shop operators will you engage in civil disobedience by allowing your shops/ equip be used to mill 80% free of charge? Per the "letters" going out if we follow them to the letter there is a way for you to be compensated but I will not say publicly b/c of the anti-2A trolls.

Full Clip
10-24-2013, 4:39 PM
Nice to know my rights apply INSIDE MY HOME.

Gunsmith Dan
10-24-2013, 4:43 PM
Yea I already tried that logic and was shot down as well because basically if it is a business, and you are engaged in doing business on your premises that the "doing it for free" or "donation" angle would not work.

The basic idea here is the BATF&E, and the law, applies a different set of rules for businesses compared to a private citizen when it comes to firearms. No before you ask you can not setup a non profit business that deals with firearms unfortunately.

I had a VERY long list of "what if" and basically the only one that was not shot down was the renting of machines to be taken to the premises of the person building the "80%".

I even tried the "mobile" approach but they came back with no because the vehicle would be registered to the business and therefore their property.

It sucks and while I will try what I can but I can not afford to loose my business and not be able to feed my family. A FFL can be revoked faster than you can say "revoked" unfortunately when it comes to issues like this.

Let me state this again because it seems the FUD on it is snowballing:

My discussions with the BATF&E at no point stated just your "home", they stated that ANY property that is under your control (owned, rented, leased) and you are listed as the primary is allowed. That going to someone else's property under their control who does not do any type of business from that location, receives no compensation and gives permission is also allowed.

That is directly from the BATF&E and VERY STRICTLY follows the current laws.

Ohh side note the reason they are sending letters is because that in reality there is so many that they are catching that they would be completely overloaded if they prosecuted everyone, so first round is get the ones that follow the law out of the picture then start on the ones that ignore the letters.

Tincon
10-24-2013, 4:47 PM
Seems to me that if these CNC shops were breaking the law there would be a lot of people in the pokey already.

What is the BATFE's motive for stopping this in the first place without arrests and prosecutions? "Gee, we're giving you a chance to stop before you're tried, fined, and/or thrown in jail?" No, I don't believe that. Do you? They're just deciding to give these shops a break, huh?


Probably goes something like this:

MEETING BETWEEN BATFE SAC AND USA/AUSA

BATFE SAC: Our agents think this thing that is happening is a violation of X.

USA/AUSA: I'm not so sure. If it is legal for a person to do this in their house with owned equipment, is it necessarily illegal for them to do it in a shop with rented equipment?

B: We think so, the shop is making money off it, so it is a manufacturing business.

U: Right, but so are the people selling tools and materials. This sure looks like a grey area. You know I don't want to screww with our 93 percent conviction rate.

B: Yes, but if we don't stop it, the firearms trade will become totally unrestricted!!!!:oji:

U: Hmmm, Holder would have my arse in a sling if I allowed that, ok, tell you what, just send them a really threatening letter. If they ignore that, I guess I'll have to do something.

Gutpile66
10-24-2013, 5:00 PM
Probably goes something like this:

MEETING BETWEEN BATFE SAC AND USA/AUSA

BATFE SAC: Our agents think this thing that is happening is a violation of X.

USA/AUSA: I'm not so sure. If it is legal for a person to do this in their house with owned equipment, is it necessarily illegal for them to do it in a shop with rented equipment?

B: We think so, the shop is making money off it, so it is a manufacturing business.

U: Right, but so are the people selling tools and materials. This sure looks like a grey area. You know I don't want to screww with our 93 percent conviction rate.

B: Yes, but if we don't stop it, the firearms trade will become totally unrestricted!!!!:oji:

U: Hmmm, Holder would have my arse in a sling if I allowed that, ok, tell you what, just send them a really threatening letter. If they ignore that, I guess I'll have to do something.

Spoken like a true, mature, prodigy (cheshire grin).

umd
10-24-2013, 5:05 PM
That going to someone else's property under their control who does not do any type of business from that location, receives no compensation and gives permission is also allowed.

It sounds like a bunch of guys sharing a mill in one of their garages would still be gtg. As long as each guy does his own work and nobody is compensated. I wonder if splitting the cost of materials could be seen as compensation.

9w1911
10-24-2013, 5:57 PM
The only reason the CNC shops were doing the 20% was for profit. No one is going to setup a shop to run it for free and lose money. Think about it.

We don't need a way around this. We don't need mobile mills with adds on the radio. We don't need to try and bring paperless, non marked, no background check firearms to the uniformed masses. Just let the whole thing die out. If you have a paperweight and no inclination to try and finish it with more than the push of a button then just sell it. If you are mechanically inclined, have a go at completing it. You might want to build something harder next.

Hopefully the general public can go back to stripped lowers and the home builders can be allowed to continue their craft without the state having to get involved and use their ban hammer on the whole freaking thing.

--first post and Amen!!!

sunborder
10-24-2013, 8:07 PM
http://www.hmcelectronics.com/product/Dremel/220-01?referrer=googleshopping&gclid=COzAiLSMsboCFRFxQgodj3kAbg

Cute little drill press. Not sure if it would be up to this kind of job. Kind of doubt it.

osis32
10-24-2013, 8:34 PM
all Im getting from this thread is people that can do it easily saying eff you to anyone that cant because they want their little kernel of rice. kinda like how many hunters said eff you to the ar/ak crowd when the bans were proposed. the it doesnt affect me so eff everyone else mentality.

RamonSJC
10-24-2013, 8:47 PM
Polymer 80's = The Future of home builds.

bohoki
10-24-2013, 9:18 PM
i love the "appears" and "may" they use in the letter it suggests they do not know what the heck you are doing

i wonder if this is one of those times you need to send in a sample of a 80% with the hammer hole drilled and ask if it is a firearm

then only allow people to bring in "firearms" to be engraved deeply

since you are only working on home made firearms there is no manufacturing

of course if a drill press was left outside with a 5/32 inch bit installed its not your fault if someone manufactures a firearm with your demo unit

osis32
10-24-2013, 9:19 PM
all I see is a logic fail. how many ar pistol lowers are out there for purchase again? let me go to city arms and buy them ten at a time. oh wait...

osis32
10-24-2013, 9:26 PM
oh I can. but I want everyone to be able to within the letter of the law. if people can legally use a cnc shop rental the should do it. and I dont see people encouraging. I see go learn and invest tons of money or pound sand noob. if you dont see that thats fine. but thats how Im interpreting things.

osis32
10-24-2013, 9:28 PM
dont bring heat to our hobby theyll ban it :(

How is that different? its the same base argument.

19K
10-24-2013, 9:37 PM
I think ill go the local shop and buy myself a stripped pistol lower receiver, oh, wait, we live in California.

BMartin1776
10-24-2013, 9:53 PM
You know I can't remember what thread I said it on but this is opening pandoras box from the feds perspective. Are they going to require any MFG'r that sells mills and CNCs to get licensed as well? Will the ATF now do door to door searches in business parks checking out machine shops, searching databases to see if said shops mfg weapons? They can't police this entirely and are going to end up in court..

oh and lets not even touch on 3D printing! I mean will anyone who buys a 3D printer be required to have a license? Will they require printers be registered and then do spot checks on jane and john homemaker to see what they are really printing?

welcome to the US police state

BlackCatRacing#13
10-24-2013, 9:59 PM
I for One would LOVE to Complete at Home and if it is that Easy ,, OK I will try and do it All Myself

First I kinda thought I would need a Full Size Drill Press worth a THOUSAND Dollars & that I don't Have ,, I would think a Dremal is too Small /Weak to Work with (I have One of those Who Doesn't)

So Far I have No Knowledge of Type of Drill Needed to Complete this Project + One that is Affordable for a 1 Time Build ,, Guess I could Sell whatever Machine when done for Half of what I Pay ,,, but I Still have No Information except I heard Harbor Freight Sells Low Budget Equipment

That is My Position about this
If Its that Easy & My Only Choice then YES I will do My Best


P.S.
When I Work On My Classic Cars
I try & do what I can Myself but I still end Up taking them to See a Top Class Mechanic as I don't have all the Tools





:D

osis32
10-24-2013, 11:31 PM
That's cool Benedict Arnold. As long as you get to keep doing your home builds.

jukyu-juichi
10-25-2013, 12:12 AM
I for One would LOVE to Complete at Home and if it is that Easy ,, OK I will try and do it All Myself

First I kinda thought I would need a Full Size Drill Press worth a THOUSAND Dollars & that I don't Have ,, I would think a Dremal is too Small /Weak to Work with (I have One of those Who Doesn't)

Good for you! I'm glad to hear someone say this, there are a few good places where you can get information on doing just as you suggest, and you don't need a lot of tools. Plan it out, watch craigslist, and get what you need at a reasonable price.

Depending on what type of firearm you plan to build, a Dremel can actually do it. One guy took the Dremel router table, with a Dremel in it, stacked up 4 cutoff blades and slotted the rails on a 1911 receiver. Search around in google, you'll be surprised at what has been done.

I don't recommend Harbor Freight, but it's your cash. It is OUR country...something to think about...There are much better mills out there. I'd look for an older vintage mill in good shape...If you must get a chinese "mill shaped object", get it used. You can find mini-mills for about $250-$300, you can do it with a mini-mill, but they are a pile of recycled scrap...lol

There are lots of places you can get education/information on operating this type of equipment, and youtube is an amazing resource. Once you have a mill you will be able to find tons of stuff to help you do what you want. Just focus on each task and learn how to do it properly.

Don't over think it though, because machining is a can of worms in itself, there is no end to tooling, measuring equipment, machines, etc...it is not hard to get the skills to make some firearms though, so don't let it scare you...and focus on what you need to do.

There are sites that people know how to machine firearms, you'll find them. You can probably get some help here, but when it comes to machining you're better off at other places...it's like anything else, if you want to learn how to machine, you go where people are machining. One site I am on, there's a guy who just built an AR15 from a billet on manual machines. No CNC, he did the entire firearm on manual machines. :cool: (I know there are some like that here, but they are in the minority)

BlackCatRacing#13
10-25-2013, 12:50 AM
OK Stand Back Everyone Sparks are about to Fly as I plan on doing My Own HOME Build with Simple Tools I Get

Harbor Freight was just a Low Budget Idea as this is a 1 Time Build

I have the Basic Knowledge to use a Drill Press + Dremel with Help from a Jig

Guess I should be Done with this before too long as Now I See what I have too Do

I would still Appreciate getting any useful Information Needed to Help Me Finish from Others Reading



P.S
Today is My :happybday: :party::party::hurray::cheers2:




:D:

umd
10-25-2013, 2:48 AM
http://littlemachineshop.com/Info/minimill_compare.php

CSACANNONEER
10-25-2013, 5:29 AM
Heh, why not take it out of state and finish it?

Because, we are talking about ATF and how they are interpreting FEDERAL regulations.

I am tired of seeing all these reported 'cease and desist letter' posts that fail to include a copy of the letter.

Jason Davis reportedly got one in April.
Now several CNC shops reportedly received letters.

Where are the documents that will help us understand exactly what the legal issue is?

The speculation on this matter needs to be stopped and facts with documentation need to be posted.

Start your own business and, I'm sure you'll get your own documentation soon.

I for One would LOVE to Complete at Home and if it is that Easy ,, OK I will try and do it All Myself

First I kinda thought I would need a Full Size Drill Press worth a THOUSAND Dollars & that I don't Have ,, I would think a Dremal is too Small /Weak to Work with (I have One of those Who Doesn't)
:D

OK Stand Back Everyone Sparks are about to Fly as I plan on doing My Own HOME Build with Simple Tools I Get

Harbor Freight was just a Low Budget Idea as this is a 1 Time Build

I have the Basic Knowledge to use a Drill Press + Dremel with Help from a Jig

Guess I should be Done with this before too long as Now I See what I have too Do

I would still Appreciate getting any useful Information Needed to Help Me Finish from Others Reading



P.S
Today is My :happybday: :party::party::hurray::cheers2:




:D:

Happy Birthday. My used drill press that I paid $40 for plus a XY axis vise (less than $100) and a borrowed jig is all you need. If you want to do a eplower ploy lower, a dremel and skill is all you need.

Mitch
10-25-2013, 6:50 AM
Remember, every time you buy something from Harbor Freight, God kills a kitten (after he ships about 50 more American manufacturing jobs to China).

Please think of the kittens.

19K
10-25-2013, 7:29 AM
Using a drill press and jig doesn't seem all too difficult. I'm going to wait a few weeks before I jump in on that route to see how this plays out.

Mitch
10-25-2013, 8:16 AM
You know I can't remember what thread I said it on but this is opening pandoras box from the feds perspective. Are they going to require any MFG'r that sells mills and CNCs to get licensed as well?

You are certainly overreacting and don't seem to understand ATF's objection to the 80% build services. As far as they are concerned, having a business that assists people in manufacturing firearms is essentially manufacturing and selling without a license.

That's not a completely outrageous interpretation. The law says individuals are free to make firearms for their personal use (not for sale). The ATF is obliged to draw a line somewhere (since the law itself does not) to determine when an individual is making a firearm and when in fact a commercial enterprise is involved to make a firearm without a license.

The C&D letter draws that line. It says while unlicensed companies may sell 80% lowers, and individuals may legally build firearms for personal use, unlicensed firms or individuals may not assist them as a regular course of trade of business. It does not say anything about informal build parties where individuals share tools without compensation.

You have to draw a line somewhere.

These are (generally) reasonable people. Read the letter. They decided to send out C&Ds to these businesses before it got too out of hand. We should be grateful they didn't attempt prosecutions. If recipients of the letters are interested in applying for FFLs, the ATF would be happy to assist.

oh and lets not even touch on 3D printing! I mean will anyone who buys a 3D printer be required to have a license? Will they require printers be registered and then do spot checks on jane and john homemaker to see what they are really printing?

There is no difference making a personal firearm with a drill press, a mill or a 3D printer.

One issue I am sure we will see with 3D printing, however, is how most 3D printing today is performed by service bureaus. If you send a Parasolid file to a service bureau, and they sell you a completed receiver, they have manufactured and sold a firearm without a license, and you purchased a firearm without a DROS or 4473. If I ran a service bureau I would institute a procedure where all projects were vetted before they were run.

But if you have your own 3D printer, no one cares, as long as you aren't making prohibited items.

umd
10-25-2013, 8:33 AM
But if you have your own 3D printer, no one cares, as long as you aren't making prohibited items.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2013/10/25/starts/

UK, but...

jukyu-juichi
10-25-2013, 8:43 AM
You are certainly overreacting and don't seem to understand ATF's objection to the 80% build services. As far as they are concerned, having a business that assists people in manufacturing firearms is essentially manufacturing and selling without a license.

Funny, I've been saying that for several weeks as others dog pile on me.

There it is in their cease and desist letter.

Tell them that beckyboo or Dr. Death said it is ok, probably won't help in a court of law. So have your ducks in line if/when you get one of those ATF letters, IMO...

bill_k_lopez
10-25-2013, 8:43 AM
Still waiting for anyone to provide the "law" that allows someone to manufacture a firearm. Legal scholar jukyu-juichi couldn't do it..

Mitch
10-25-2013, 8:48 AM
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2013/10/25/starts/

UK, but...

But UK. Individuals are not legally able to produce personal firearms in the UK.

There could be ramifications here in the US if somehow Congress gets it into their collective head that 3D printed firearms cannot be detected by airport security (as they attempted to ban Glocks in the 1980s).

Funny, I've been saying that for several weeks as others dog pile on me.

No, you have been insisting (in this thread) individuals cannot legally build personal firearms with the assistance of other individuals. There is no law that I am aware of to back that up, nor have you posted anything supporting your position.

Still waiting for anyone to provide the "law" that allows someone to manufacture a firearm. Legal scholar jukyu-juichi couldn't do it..

From ATF FAQ (http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/firearms-technology.html#commercial-parts-assembly):

For your information, per provisions of the Gun Control Act (GCA) of 1968, 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44, an unlicensed individual may make a “firearm” as defined in the GCA for his own personal use, but not for sale or distribution.

umd
10-25-2013, 8:54 AM
Still waiting for anyone to provide the "law" that allows someone to manufacture a firearm. Legal scholar jukyu-juichi couldn't do it..

To be fair, he did. More specifically there is no law that prevents it. This ATF document explains their position: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/firearms-technology.html#commercial-parts-assembly

What he was not able to do (and now claims he was misunderstood...) is support his interpretation that you may not have any assistance from even a friend.

umd
10-25-2013, 8:57 AM
But UK. Individuals are not legally able to produce personal firearms in the UK.

I know, I'm just pointing out that the hysteria about 3D printing is starting. It will not be viewed the same by the authorities as someone milling it out themselves in a garage. Even if you point out that a 3D printer is functionally similar to a CNC machine, it will be seen as more readily available to the masses.

jukyu-juichi
10-25-2013, 9:02 AM
Still waiting for anyone to provide the "law" that allows someone to manufacture a firearm. Legal scholar jukyu-juichi couldn't do it..

You just don't get it, as others don't either.

If you follow this thread, as it all un-winds, folks are suggesting you partner wtih other people to buy a mini-mill and do the work. Again, the law provide you with the right to manufacture a personal firearm. Nothing more, nothing less...go ahead lopez, show everyone how big your b@!!$ are and go up against the BATFE...

In fact, you can pave the way for the rest of us.

jukyu-juichi
10-25-2013, 9:12 AM
To be fair, he did. More specifically there is no law that prevents it. This ATF document explains their position: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/firearms-technology.html#commercial-parts-assembly

What he was not able to do (and now claims he was misunderstood...) is support his interpretation that you may not have any assistance from even a friend.

Yes, in fact you need to read all the links I posted to lopez, which he didn't read anyway, since all are tired into each other, starting with the GCA of 1968.

However, you need to read and understand the other laws and penal codes in order to figure out WHAT can be manufactured, as I also mentioned the "dangerous weapon" is a serious gotcha.

I am convinced that the ATF follows this site for certain.

umd
10-25-2013, 9:18 AM
Yes, in fact you need to read all the links I posted to lopez, which he didn't read anyway, since all are tired into each other, starting with the GCA of 1968.

However, you need to read and understand the other laws and penal codes in order to figure out WHAT can be manufactured, as I also mentioned the "dangerous weapon" is a serious gotcha.

I am convinced that the ATF follows this site for certain.

I read all the links. You have a serious comprehension issue. No wonder you have had nothing but issues here.

bill_k_lopez
10-25-2013, 9:31 AM
There is no "law" to allow you to manufacture a weapon - this is why I call BS on those who keep "interpreting" the "law".

Straight from the BATFE website FAQ:

For your information, per provisions of the Gun Control Act (GCA) of 1968, 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44, an unlicensed individual may make a “firearm” as defined in the GCA for his own personal use, but not for sale or distribution.

It is in fact legal for you to manufacture your own firearm, because the ONLY laws that address manufacturing are for those in the business of sales or distribution.


Read the C&D letter very carefully - the BATFE says that they believe that by renting out the machine these shops are effectively doing the manufacturing, therefore engaged in the business of manufacturing for sales and distribution WITHOUT A LICENSE.

And as I mentioned earlier - that is a stretch. If in fact this was a clear cut violation of the law in what they were doing, those shop owners would have been walked out of their businesses in hand cuffs, and pad locks and chains would have been put on the doors. They also would have subpoenaed lists of all their customers that rented time on those machines, since they are now in possession of illegally obtained firearms.

Furthermore, there are no laws, or rules, or anything else that specify the method in which my personally manufactured firearm is manufactured. None - zip. No law that says I can't have a friend help me, or whose tools I use or where I use them. Nothing. I challenge anyone to find them and post them.

What the BATFE is doing is engaging in is using their authority and threat of legal action to coerce businesses into stopping an activity that doesn't fit their agenda.

thehummerguy
10-25-2013, 9:36 AM
Folks
I personally have been waiting for this to happen for some time....I have been building my own AR's for years, way before it was as common today...like 25 hrs ago. It is today as it was then, you can build a gun for yourself, not to be sold for profit on a regular basis....occasional yes, as a course of business no.
It on ATF's web site.
The issue of these build parties may not be the issue, the issue is the person supplying all the tools to groups of folks to build them, thus the place he is doing this is now a firearms production facility.
I know several friends who doing the craze, were buying parts, assembling AR's and selling for a profit....I advised they were in fact in the business and required in that scenario an 01 and 07 license.....at minimum an 01 as they were deriving profit from sales for the purpose of profit. This has ALWAYs been the law for as long as I have been in the business....30yrs to be exact.

The 80% receiver question has been around along time....I do alot of movie prop guns from 80% receivers....I leave them at 80% so they are "replicas".
I have never been able to figure out what a true 80% is, I just buy them as advertised from the mfg that way. ATF could very well determine that more then one is more then truly 80%. I mean....what is 80%?mwho makes that determination?....ATF does I guess.

I saw the shutdown of the build parties for AR's.....and as one person pointed out, way to much info being put out there for ATF to begin with, if folks just did it without all the open forum advertising, it most likely would never have been a topic.

bill_k_lopez
10-25-2013, 9:42 AM
Folks
I personally have been waiting for this to happen for some time....I have been building my own AR's for years, way before it was as common today...like 25 hrs ago. It is today as it was then, you can build a gun for yourself, not to be sold for profit on a regular basis....occasional yes, as a course of business no.
It on ATF's web site.
The issue of these build parties may not be the issue, the issue is the person supplying all the tools to groups of folks to build them, thus the place he is doing this is now a firearms production facility.
I know several friends who doing the craze, were buying parts, assembling AR's and selling for a profit....I advised they were in fact in the business and required in that scenario an 01 and 07 license.....at minimum an 01 as they were deriving profit from sales for the purpose of profit. This has ALWAYs been the law for as long as I have been in the business....30yrs to be exact.

The 80% receiver question has been around along time....I do alot of movie prop guns from 80% receivers....I leave them at 80% so they are "replicas".
I have never been able to figure out what a true 80% is, I just buy them as advertised from the mfg that way. ATF could very well determine that more then one is more then truly 80%. I mean....what is 80%?mwho makes that determination?....ATF does I guess.

I saw the shutdown of the build parties for AR's.....and as one person pointed out, way to much info being put out there for ATF to begin with, if folks just did it without all the open forum advertising, it most likely would never have been a topic.

Sorry to jump on you - but quit using the term "build party".

A build party was originally what you did after you purchased a stripped lower receiver. You got together with a bunch of people who were "building" their lowers, and got help from more experienced people to assemble and complete your rifle.

Somehow that term was transferred to the 80% builds - however - nobody goes to an 80% "build party". 1 CNC machine, 1 person - you selected an appointment, went to the shop, ran the CNC machine, paid for the rental time of the machine and left.

No party, no chips and dip - just in and out.

The whole idea that this was some kind of social get together for hours at a time while 50 people ran the machine is pretty ridiculous.

Mitch
10-25-2013, 9:43 AM
Read the C&D letter very carefully - the BATFE says that they believe that by renting out the machine these shops are effectively doing the manufacturing, therefore engaged in the business of manufacturing for sales and distribution WITHOUT A LICENSE.

And as I mentioned earlier - that is a stretch. If in fact this was a clear cut violation of the law in what they were doing, those shop owners would have been walked out of their businesses in hand cuffs, and pad locks and chains would have been put on the doors.

It's not crystal clear simply because it's a new situation and it hasn't gone to court yet. ATF doesn't want to prosecute, and the letter recipients sure don't want to be prosecuted. So the ATF is effectively shutting down businesses they believe to be in violation of the law without a lot of time and expense.

The ATF's interpretation doesn't seem unreasonable to me. Apparently you disagree. That's fine, the law is not so cut and dry. The truth of the matter can be determined simply by one of the letter recipients politely suggesting the ATF pound sand, at which point the business will be raided and a criminal trial will take place where it will be adjudicated once and for all whether the ATF's interpretation of the law is correct or not.

Sorry to jump on you - but quit using the term "build party".

A build party was originally what you did after you purchased a stripped lower receiver. You got together with a bunch of people who were "building" their lowers, and got help from more experienced people to assemble and complete your rifle.


Yes, there's nothing in the C&D letters to suggest build parties are in any way in danger (at least as far as the ATF is concerned, who are enforcing a 45 year old Federal law; California law might be a different story in future).

thehummerguy
10-25-2013, 9:52 AM
Sorry to jump on you - but quit using the term "build party".

A build party was originally what you did after you purchased a stripped lower receiver. You got together with a bunch of people who were "building" their lowers, and got help from more experienced people to assemble and complete your rifle.

Somehow that term was transferred to the 80% builds - however - nobody goes to an 80% "build party". 1 CNC machine, 1 person - you selected an appointment, went to the shop, ran the CNC machine, paid for the rental time of the machine and left.

No party, no chips and dip - just in and out.

The whole idea that this was some kind of social get together for hours at a time while 50 people ran the machine is pretty ridiculous.


Say what you want...there were folks having Build parties, don't try to make me beleive otherwise...and I mean parties. I have seen many threads around the Internet, this is not the only site that talks about guns. It does not have to be 50 people either it can be 3 or 4... Define party.
Think about it for a second, a company advertises machinery and a service for the sole purpose of allowing the mfg of an unregistered firearm.....yea, that wasn't going to get,anyone's attention.....wake up.

I have spoke to far to many folks....on this website, who's sole intent is have these guns OFF the grid and unregistered do you think ATF is stupid? Your tax dollars are being used to read all these posts, they know what going on.

Lesson....if you don't want someone to know something.....don't talk about it!

bill_k_lopez
10-25-2013, 9:54 AM
It's not crystal clear simply because it's a new situation and it hasn't gone to court yet. ATF doesn't want to prosecute, and the letter recipients sure don't want to be prosecuted. So the ATF is effectively shutting down businesses they believe to be in violation of the law without a lot of time and expense.

The ATF's interpretation doesn't seem unreasonable to me. Apparently you disagree. That's fine, the law is not so cut and dry. The truth of the matter can be determined simply by one of the letter recipients politely suggesting the ATF pound sand, at which point the business will be raided and a criminal trial will take place where it will be adjudicated once and for all whether the ATF's interpretation of the law is correct or not.


BATFE wants them to stop - that's pretty obvious.

In lieu of a real law they are coercing the business to stop by threatening legal action.

Federal laws are:

Created by the legislature
Enforced by agencies such as BATFE
Interpreted by the courts.

Seems like we aren't following that process here are we?

bill_k_lopez
10-25-2013, 9:57 AM
Say what you want...there were folks having Build parties, don't try to make me beleive otherwise...and I mean parties. I have seen many threads around the Internet, this is not the only site that talks about guns. It does not have to be 50 people either it can be 3 or 4... Define party.
Think about it for a second, a company advertises machinery and a service for the sole purpose of allowing the mfg of an unregistered firearm.....yea, that wasn't going to get,anyone's attention.....wake up.

I have spoke to far to many folks....on this website, who's sole intent is have these guns OFF the grid and unregistered do you think ATF is stupid? Your tax dollars are being used to read all these posts, they know what going on.

Lesson....if you don't want someone to know something.....don't talk about it!

So how many of these did you attend? So you know they were "parties" right?

Arms Specialty & Tools was not having parties.

And if I'm doing something that is completely legal - why should I have to hide in the shadows? That's what criminals do...

thehummerguy
10-25-2013, 9:59 AM
And that surprises you?,the goverment doesn't follow any of there,own laws in a host of other areas. ATF has always notorious for making determinations without much regard for the law.....over the years it has more to do with who is leading the charge down there.

tal3nt
10-25-2013, 10:01 AM
Darn, no more CNC shops..


BTW, great thread guys. Entertaining as always

thehummerguy
10-25-2013, 10:01 AM
So how many of these did you attend? So you know they were "parties" right?

Arms Specialty & Tools was not having parties.


I don't need nor want to attend Any, stay on point. I am no fan of nor have ever been a fan of building from an 80%, why? I can just go buy a lower and be done with it. But that me....and yes, I know they were parties....I know guys who went to them.

thehummerguy
10-25-2013, 10:04 AM
Darn, no more CNC shops..


BTW, great thread guys. Entertaining as always

CNC shops are not the issue....c'mon guys, Christ, inject some logic here....like I said in my previous post.

The purpose of the 80% percent build,was for what?....I will let you all tell me what it is/was for....and it wasn't to save money.

tal3nt
10-25-2013, 10:17 AM
I get your argument just fine. And in many respects I think you are absolutely right. But convenience is convenience, and now it's gone.

umd
10-25-2013, 10:18 AM
The purpose of the 80% percent build,was for what?....I will let you all tell me what it is/was for....and it wasn't to save money.

I can't speak for anyone else, but for me:

1) I wanted to build a pistol
2) No shops local to me sold stripped lowers I couldn't stand paying nearly $100 to do an internet transfer
3) I felt that I could use the equipment for other (non-firearm) things
4) I like the satisfaction of learning to do things myself. And now that I have the equipment, I'd like to make try other, more involved firearms

Lifeon2whls
10-25-2013, 10:23 AM
The one thing that they did say would BE LEGAL is that companies can rent machines for people to take home and use for making "80%" receiver/frames.

SO that is what I am working on atm to find mill machines light enough but accurate enough for shipping/pickup, how to setup deposits and insurance as well as a training program on how to use the mills.

I STRONGLY encourage those that were doing the renting of machines to also look into how to setup a similar program as well.

hope that helps :D

Hrmmmm mobile CNC...this would fit in my garage...

http://www.cleggind.com/photos/185/185_28.jpg

thehummerguy
10-25-2013, 10:24 AM
I get your argument just fine. And in many respects I think you are absolutely right. But convenience is convenience, and now it's gone.


Agreed, no one get me wrong....I don't like it either.
I liken this to the open carry issue in alif, I have lived here 48 yrs, had been legal for at least that long....then all of a sudden a bunch of fools made it an issue and shoved it up the A** of everyone to see and the liberal media and worthless politicians needed to pass yet another law....and now there is no more open carry. Many many of my frinds are LEO, they had no real issue with it....till suddenly there,were idiots all over the the place excesising there rights...while I get it, it's always been my credo to not draw attention that you are armed....seems to invite idiots.

12voltguy
10-25-2013, 10:25 AM
.

Lesson....if you don't want someone to know something.....don't talk about it!

only way 2 people can keep a secret
1 has to be DEAD,lol

jrr
10-25-2013, 10:40 AM
Umm.. no, not really. Lots of manufacturing businesses use rented or leased equipment, for the same reason people lease cars. You don't have to worry about maintenance or obsolescence. When it wears out, you turn in your lease for a new model. That doesn't make the company renting the equipment engaged in whatever manufacturing the equipment is used for.

So, if I start a business that rents equipment by the hour that is used for completing an 80% lower, I am not in the business of manufacturing firearms, I am in the business of renting machinery.

Tincon
10-25-2013, 10:41 AM
That one word in your post says it all. What were these businesses doing? helping to Mfg firearms for profit without a license, background checks or paperwork. It really is not that hard to understand.

And people selling 80% receivers, selling jigs, etc are doing that too right? So BATFE can shut them down? "Helping to manufacture" is not manufacturing, IMO.

Mitch
10-25-2013, 11:19 AM
And people selling 80% receivers, selling jigs, etc are doing that too right? So BATFE can shut them down? "Helping to manufacture" is not manufacturing, IMO.

The ATF is empowered under the 1968 GCA to interpret the Act. They have made a determination, according to the C&D letter, that shops in the business of assisting people to build firearms are themselves manufacturing firearms without a license. They have made no such determination regarding 80% receivers and jigs.

They have to draw a line somewhere between an individual making his own personal firearm in accordance with the law and a business illegally manufacturing a firearm without a license. Where do they draw the line? Because the line has to be drawn somewhere. Naturally not everyone is going to agree it's the correct point to draw the line, but a determination has to be made.

They had to make a similar decision when confronted with a two piece rifle receiver design. Which piece is the controlled firearm? They decided it was the lower for an AR-15; for a FAL it's the upper. An arbitrary decision, perhaps, but it has to be one or the other.

I think the decision in this case is not so arbitrary. Jigs and tools and 80% lowers are things, and as long as those things aren't firearms the ATF has no issue with them. But the 80% completion businesses were offering services. That was probably an easy demarcation for them to make, especially as they emphasized the aspect of doing it for payment.

Again, if the business providing the services were licensed and followed all the correct and legal procedures for the manufacture and sale of a firearm, I doubt the ATF would have any problem with it, and would even help them with the application paperwork.

Tincon
10-25-2013, 11:37 AM
The ATF is empowered under the 1968 GCA to interpret the Act. They have made a determination, according to the C&D letter, that shops in the business of assisting people to build firearms are themselves manufacturing firearms without a license. They have made no such determination regarding 80% receivers and jigs.


Obviously. The question is; is the ATF interpretation reasonable? Arguably it isn't.


I think the decision in this case is not so arbitrary. Jigs and tools and 80% lowers are things, and as long as those things aren't firearms the ATF has no issue with them. But the 80% completion businesses were offering services.


It was my understanding they they were renting tools (things). Aparently if they were selling such tools it would be ok. If a person was very rich they could buy a new CNC machine every time they wanted to make something, preloaded with all the software to do it. Apparently that would be ok with the ATF. But if us proles that can't afford that want to rent machine time, that's illegal.

In other words, the dividing line seems to be the point at which a process makes getting guns too cheap and easy.Then it becomes manufacturing. Look at how much they are freaking out about 3D printers. That's a 100% home build. But they want to ban them, even though the product isn't that great.

Bottom line, they want to disarm this county. Cooperating with the creeping incrementalism by saying "hey this restriction is fine because it doesn't affect me (with the implication that you don't want to rock the boat because they might target you next) is... disappointing.

michaelthetrojan
10-25-2013, 12:21 PM
dont bring heat to our hobby theyll ban it :(

How is that different? its the same base argument.

guns are heat.. thats why they say "hes packing heat"...
guns are looked upon with disdain in cali... loving any kind of gun makes you a racist homophobe

bill_k_lopez
10-25-2013, 12:28 PM
That is one way to look at it. The other would be to say that we are in shark infested waters here in this state. The life boat is full of those just trying to survive and you want to stand up and rock the boat as hard as you possibly can. Does that really seem like the smartest thing to do?

When you say this restriction does not affect me, you are delusional. The home builders are going to face a complete ban in this state if this is not addressed. Most likely it is already too late. Everyone can go back to buying lowers after they ruin it for the rest of us hobbyists for f'never. Talk about shortsighted and selfish.


Yes, you are quite selfish, and I understand what you are saying completely.

Me, me, me - let me hide in the shadows doing my thing because as long as I keep quiet they wont notice me, to hell with the rest of you.

Don't rock the boat - not even to rescue someone else drowning in the water right next to you - too much risk.

That sir, is selfish.

AHamilton1776
10-25-2013, 1:36 PM
Hypothetical: I have a 100 percent finished, non-anodized lower that I machined myself, in my home, with tools I made myself from all natural, organic, renewable resources.

Given the current dynamic, if I send the lower to a professional for blasting/anodizing/engraving am I in violation because I not doing all the work myself?

I understand there's no case-law, etc. for this. I'm only looking for opinions from strangers on the interwebs and some interesting reading...

Tincon
10-25-2013, 1:41 PM
Hypothetical: I have a 100 percent finished, non-anodized lower that I machined myself, in my home, with tools I made myself from all natural, organic, renewable resources.

Given the current dynamic, if I send the lower to a professional for blasting/anodizing/engraving am I in violation because I not doing all the work myself?

Well that's a bit of a different question. You are now sending a finished lower receiver to a person who is (I'm assuming) not an FFL. Is that person in another state?

AKSOG
10-25-2013, 1:42 PM
Hypothetical: I have a 100 percent finished, non-anodized lower that I machined myself, in my home, with tools I made myself from all natural, organic, renewable resources.

Given the current dynamic, if I send the lower to a professional for blasting/anodizing/engraving am I in violation because I not doing all the work myself?

I understand there's no case-law, etc. for this. I'm only looking for opinions from strangers on the interwebs and some interesting reading...

My understanding is you cant have it sent out to be engraved once it's completed. You must be present during the process or do it yourself. Also the the blasting and anodizing must be the same unless the company has a FFL

Mitch
10-25-2013, 1:46 PM
Obviously. The question is; is the ATF interpretation reasonable? Arguably it isn't.

And arguably it is. That's for lawyers and judges to decide.

One thing I was thinking about during lunch, though: I wonder how many of these firms consulted experienced firearms attorneys (not crusading civil rights attorneys, but lawyers with decades of experience working with the ATF and other regulatory bodies) before they started offering these 80% build services. You know Chuck Michel, and I have met him on one occasion. I would be surprised if he or, say, Bruce Colodny advised any of these guys beforehand that it was crystal clear they would be operating within the law. Maybe they did, but I would be surprised if so.

Now, if a skilled and experienced attorney couches his advice with warnings and reservations, that indicates that, in the opinion of the attorney, the authorities can reasonably argue that the activity in question is illegal.

It was my understanding they they were renting tools (things). Aparently if they were selling such tools it would be ok.

Sure. Renting = providing a service. Programming the machine, setting up the jig, getting the speeds and feeds right = providing a service. Have you every operated a CNC mill? There's a lot more to it than pushing a button. Generally you pay a guy about $50 per hour to run the thing. That's a service.

But the thing vs service suggestion is just my own idea of how the ATF is demarcating the legal vs illegal inputs into homebuilding. I don't really know what their thinking is. But whatever it is, government lawyers are convinced it is defensible in court. Those letters weren't written by bored agents sitting around the office thinking of who can they harass next.

Bottom line, they want to disarm this county. Cooperating with the creeping incrementalism by saying "hey this restriction is fine because it doesn't affect me (with the implication that you don't want to rock the boat because they might target you next) is... disappointing.

You mean you are disappointed I'm not ranting impotently on a message board, but instead am trying to arrive at an understanding of what's going on based on my own experiences as well as open ruminations?

I don't know how many ATF field agents you know. Generally, and certainly in this case, they are just trying to do their jobs, which is interpreting and enforcing the 1968 GCA, which is a terrible law. In fact, I'd wager the C&D letters went out because they don't want to arrest anyone. They see this as a looming issue that will cause them many problems down the line, and they wanted to get in front of it. So in true bureaucratic fashion they acted in a way they are confident will simply shut it down and make the problem go away. And probably it will.

But all someone has to do is carry on performing the service in defiance of the letter, and we will all get a chance to see how arguable a case the ATF has.

AHamilton1776
10-25-2013, 1:49 PM
Again, this is all totally hypothetical.

I suppose in a free state a little work on a lower would be a nonissue.

So for the sake of this conversation, lets assume the anodizing, etc. is being done in CA.

Would the anodizer need an FFL?
Would ATF not approve of me doing the ano/engraving myself under the watchful eye of a paid professional?

Mitch
10-25-2013, 1:53 PM
Given the current dynamic, if I send the lower to a professional for blasting/anodizing/engraving am I in violation because I not doing all the work myself?

It's an excellent question.

If you were a licensed manufacturer, you would not be able to send the completed and serialized part out to a third party for more than [mumble] hours or days unless the third party was another FFL. That's why so many metal finishers in places like Connecticut and Illinois (where lot of guns are made) are FFLs. I believe I have run into one or more metal finishers here in California who have FFLs.

But as a homebuilder, you aren't a licensed manufacturer.

What are the rules for sending a firearms out for Cerakote? Do the coaters have to be FFLs? I don't know.

jukyu-juichi
10-25-2013, 1:56 PM
I see go learn and invest tons of money or pound sand noob.

I read all the links. You have a serious comprehension issue. No wonder you have had nothing but issues here.

I'm not the only one with comprehension problem, the quote above yours is not what I saw anyone saying.

To be certain, anyone breaking the law can go pound sand, and you can quote me on that. There are many people breaking and talking about breaking the law in this thread, that is why calguns closes some of the threads.

And people selling 80% receivers, selling jigs, etc are doing that too right? So BATFE can shut them down? "Helping to manufacture" is not manufacturing, IMO.

No.

80% receivers are NOT firearms. It is only once you machine the remaining 20% that it becomes a firearm. Before that you ship them interstate wtihout going through an FFL and they are no different than a hunk of steel.

The one thing I do know for absolute certainty, I have not been served with any cease and desist letter. OTOH, I haven't broken the law. ;)

jukyu-juichi
10-25-2013, 2:05 PM
Hypothetical: I have a 100 percent finished, non-anodized lower that I machined myself, in my home, with tools I made myself from all natural, organic, renewable resources.

Given the current dynamic, if I send the lower to a professional for blasting/anodizing/engraving am I in violation because I not doing all the work myself?

I understand there's no case-law, etc. for this. I'm only looking for opinions from strangers on the interwebs and some interesting reading...

No.

Once you turn your paperweight into a firearm, you can do whatever you like with it that any other legal gun owner can in California. As long as you have already turned it into a firearm, you are good to go as long as you can legally own a firearm, and the changes you make to it are within the law.

For someone building a paperweight that wanted to do the same, it would be wise to build it as a firearm first then sent it out for blasting/anodizing.

This is how I interpret the law. Check with others here as they interpret the law differently.

shda5582
10-25-2013, 2:14 PM
Couple of things that occur to me:

1. This being California and extremely anti-gun, if the ATF/BAFTE had ANY chance of arresting anyone for violation of any gun laws (especially if they can show that they are closing this "loophole" that allowed that shooter to use an "unregistered" "assault weapon" in a shooting), don't you think they would be doing so instead of just sending out cease and desist letters? One would think the hoplophobes would want to show that they are on this to prevent a repeat of that, or of trying to "crack down" on the dangerous proliferation of weapons. tldr: why were no arrests done, and only C&D letters? Because no laws were violated? (personally I think this was nothing more than scare tactics and IF this were to go to court, I don't think it would hold up)

2. According to what I'm understanding, CNC shops cannot "rent" out equipment any more to finish 80's. So why not sell the CNC machine for use, then buy it back after it's done? Perfectly legal since you are not "renting" the equipment, but selling it. And what the person who buys it does with it doesn't fall under the shop's responsibility.

BMartin1776
10-25-2013, 2:25 PM
Couple of things that occur to me:

1. This being California and extremely anti-gun, if the ATF/BAFTE had ANY chance of arresting anyone for violation of any gun laws (especially if they can show that they are closing this "loophole" that allowed that shooter to use an "unregistered" "assault weapon" in a shooting), don't you think they would be doing so instead of just sending out cease and desist letters? One would think the hoplophobes would want to show that they are on this to prevent a repeat of that, or of trying to "crack down" on the dangerous proliferation of weapons. tldr: why were no arrests done, and only C&D letters? Because no laws were violated? (personally I think this was nothing more than scare tactics and IF this were to go to court, I don't think it would hold up)

2. According to what I'm understanding, CNC shops cannot "rent" out equipment any more to finish 80's. So why not sell the CNC machine for use, then buy it back after it's done? Perfectly legal since you are not "renting" the equipment, but selling it. And what the person who buys it does with it doesn't fall under the shop's responsibility.

I agree 100% there are ways around this ppl are just bending over and running to the hills... same ones whoa re all about freedom and standing up for our rights

BlackCatRacing#13
10-25-2013, 2:38 PM
According to what I'm understanding, CNC shops cannot "rent" out equipment any more to finish 80's. So why not sell the CNC machine for use, then buy it back after it's done? Perfectly legal since you are not "renting" the equipment, but selling it. And what the person who buys it does with it doesn't fall under the shop's responsibility.

OK
1) Renting You a Mill Machine for the Hours worth of time they deem Illegal

2) Selling same Machine to You for Your 20 minutes to an Hour and You Sell it to next Person that Shows Up & they use & resell to the next person and the next, until it then gets Sold Back to Original Owner


Honestly I don't See it Working as Easy as it Sounds if it was that Easy it would have been done like that from the Start

YES/NO

What do You Say ??

FresnoCNC
10-25-2013, 2:44 PM
OK
1) Renting You a Mill Machine for the Hours worth of time they deem Illegal

2) Selling same Machine to You for Your 20 minutes to an Hour and You Sell it to next Person that Shows Up & they use & resell to the next person and the next, until it then gets Sold Back to Original Owner


Honestly I don't See it Working as Easy as it Sounds if it was that Easy it would have been done like that from the Start

YES/NO

What do You Say ??


What happens when said individual doesn't want to sell the machine back to you?

BlackCatRacing#13
10-25-2013, 2:57 PM
What happens when said individual doesn't want to sell the machine back to you?

Well ,,, Then You are Now Owner of a Machine that is Smarter then Me :D:






:D

shda5582
10-25-2013, 3:15 PM
OK
1) Renting You a Mill Machine for the Hours worth of time they deem Illegal

2) Selling same Machine to You for Your 20 minutes to an Hour and You Sell it to next Person that Shows Up & they use & resell to the next person and the next, until it then gets Sold Back to Original Owner


Honestly I don't See it Working as Easy as it Sounds if it was that Easy it would have been done like that from the Start

YES/NO

What do You Say ??

Yes AND No.

I don't think it was done that way from the start because:

1. nobody HAD to

2. noone thought of it

-OR-

1. the problem was brought up of not selling it back, as FresnoCNC suggested.


What happens when said individual doesn't want to sell the machine back to you?

I'm sure(?) that some kind of legally-binding contract could be drawn up that would allow the original owner of the machine to sue if it wasn't sold back. I dunno, I'm not a property/contract lawyer so I have no clue, it was just a random idea.

Maybe word it in such a way that once you finish using the machine, you agree to sell it back to the shop and only the shop and if you don't, you'll be sued for the cost of the machine?. Bonus: releases the shop from all liabilities.

Since, technically, legally you wouldn't "own" the machine for the time used, you couldn't be held responsible for what is done on it, right? Yea, it's a pretty sophomoric idea I admit, but who knows, maybe it could work?

Gunsmith Dan
10-25-2013, 3:32 PM
Let me answer a couple of things brought up here:

I am a Certified Cerakote applicator and Gunsmith with FFL so I am very aware of the law in that respect:

A unfinished "80%" can be coated by anyone since the finish on firearms do not contribute to the function of the firearm (bare Aluminum lowers will shoot just fine). A fully completed receiver/frame can only be sent to a FFL otherwise the owner must be present and have the receiver/frame in their view at all times for a non FFL to work on it.

That should answer the coating questions that came up.


now to answer the question that MOST of you are missing the mark on:

The very strict interpetation of the law by the BATF&E has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE MACHINES. They are stating it is the LOCATION of the machines and who owns that location that is the problem.

SO you can use manual, CNC, Water Jets hell even "Sharks with frik en Laser beams on their heads" as long as the machines are operated by you and the machines are on property under your control (rent, lease or own as long as you are the primary) and the owners of the machines have no part of the ownership of the property. You can have infinite number of "helpers" as long as they don't get compensated in any way and don't cause the forming or removal of material from the receiver/frame in anyway.

That's it in a nutshell as told to me by the BATF&E

So the only way around any of this atm is to have shops rent machines you take with you or they ship it to you.

hope that clears up a few things.

ke6guj
10-25-2013, 3:39 PM
Let me answer a couple of things brought up here:

I am a Certified Cerakote applicator and Gunsmith with FFL so I am very aware of the law in that respect:

A unfinished "80%" can be coated by anyone since the finish on firearms do not contribute to the function of the firearm (bare Aluminum lowers will shoot just fine). A fully completed receiver/frame can only be sent to a FFL otherwise the owner must be present and have the receiver/frame in their view at all times for a non FFL to work on it.

so a non-FFL can work on a receiver legally as long as the owner is present. so, if a person brings a "legal" receiver to a person, can that person do unlicensed gunsmithing to the receiver? ATF has stated that the currently marketed "80% AR receivers" are not legally firearms, but as soon as any additional work is done to the block of aluminum, that it now is legally considrered a firearm. So, if the owner does some machining steps, such as drill a couple holes in the FCG area, then that is a legal firearm in the eyes of the ATF. Later on, they should be able to have a non-FFL do additional non-licensed gunsmithing on that firearm for them if they remain onsite with the firearm.

Gunsmith Dan
10-25-2013, 3:52 PM
Coating a firearm and doing Gunsmithing is considered 2 different things by the BATF&E.

Basically anyone doing non FFL gunsmithing may not do it as part of a business where they get compensated for their time, just the actual cost of what they paid for materials and/or supplies used ( no marking up prices).

A non FFL can coat a "80% paperweight" all day long without the owner being present. Once you start the process of turning it into a firearm then yes only a FFL can work on it and ONLY on parts that are actually broken, unless the owner is physically present during the whole process for a non FFL. In other words no you can not start the process and say "ohh oops I messed something up can you "repair" my lower so it functions correctly" that would be manufacturing.

That is the main reason I do not accept receivers/frames that have been started but not completed because if I was ever inspected it COULD look like I was finishing the milling on them.

AHamilton1776
10-25-2013, 4:00 PM
Thanks Gunsmith Dan, that clears up a lot of my questions.

jukyu-juichi
10-25-2013, 4:27 PM
When you say this restriction does not affect me, you are delusional. The home builders are going to face a complete ban in this state if this is not addressed. Most likely it is already too late. Everyone can go back to buying lowers after they ruin it for the rest of us hobbyists for f'never. Talk about shortsighted and selfish.

I agree with you, and one of the reasons I do want to build my own firearms, while I can.

As it is, there is only a single way to manufacture a semi-automatic handgun. But since the SSE has been so widely abused in the same way, SSE will also be removed from the exemptions soon and it will not be possible to build a semi-automatic handgun. This will also mean that you can't build what you can legally own or buy, and that just doesn't make sense, so I hope there is some clarification on manufacturing for personal when SSE is removed, but I doubt it.

"build parties" merely created a problem for the Feds to deal with. In the same way the SSE has done in California.

jukyu-juichi
10-25-2013, 4:36 PM
Sounds like you should setup a CNC shop and figure out what it feels like to be locked in a cell.
"Play stupid games, win a stupid prize" is how the saying goes. If anyone here thinks the ATF and DOJ are bluffing you need to wake up. Tincon can tell you what it's like to be locked in a cell from first hand experience. Maybe he can save you the grief and describe how bad it sucks.

I agree to that. I have received no cease and desist letter. I have broken no law. I only look out for myself.

I believe it has become a problem that they now need to deal with.

It's all fun and games until you poke your eye out...lol

ke6guj
10-25-2013, 4:51 PM
Coating a firearm and doing Gunsmithing is considered 2 different things by the BATF&E. is that documented anywhere on what can be done by a non-licensee when the owner is present.



A non FFL can coat a "80% paperweight" all day long without the owner being present. Once you start the process of turning it into a firearm then yes only a FFL can work on it and ONLY on parts that are actually broken, unless the owner is physically present during the whole process for a non FFL. In other words no you can not start the process and say "ohh oops I messed something up can you "repair" my lower so it functions correctly" that would be manufacturing.

hmm, the process of turning it into a firearm was completed the moment my drillbit created an additional hole taking it from "80%" to "81%". It was manufactured at that point. ATF has stated that it a firearm when that hole is drilled. if someone else then helps me do additional machine work to the legally-defined firearm, it shouldn't be considered manufacturing because it was ALREADY manufactured previously.

And I know of people that will work on bolt-action guns while you wait that have no FFL. that includes building up "virgin" 100% receivers into complete rifles. No broken parts involved that were swapped out. Just a guy doing gunsmithing work.

are they violating the law.


That is the main reason I do not accept receivers/frames that have been started but not completed because if I was ever inspected it COULD look like I was finishing the milling on them.and that is a valid CYA position that you can take.

MNhillbilly
10-25-2013, 5:47 PM
Looking forward to updates on this.

Gutpile66
10-25-2013, 5:58 PM
No.

Once you turn your paperweight into a firearm, you can do whatever you like with it that any other legal gun owner can in California. As long as you have already turned it into a firearm, you are good to go as long as you can legally own a firearm, and the changes you make to it are within the law.

For someone building a paperweight that wanted to do the same, it would be wise to build it as a firearm first then sent it out for blasting/anodizing.

This is how I interpret the law. Check with others here as they interpret the law differently.

I have a friend who's been Cerakoting in Orange County for more than 8 years, mostly custom automotive parts. He has a storefront; this is his livelihood. Due to the recent demand of firearm refinishing as a whole he called the CADOJ, BATFE, and Cerakote, all told him he had to have an FFL in order to blast and paint receivers.

bill_k_lopez
10-25-2013, 6:18 PM
I have a friend who's been Cerakoting in Orange County for more than 8 years, mostly custom automotive parts. He has a storefront; this is his livelihood. Due to the recent demand of firearm refinishing as a whole he called the CADOJ, BATFE, and Cerakote, all told him he had to have an FFL in order to blast and paint receivers.

Because people leave them over night.

cr250chevy
10-25-2013, 6:41 PM
Glad someone posted the letter - now we have some facts.

I agree - they are making a huge stretch in trying to define the business activities going on.

Its also very clear they aren't 100% sure if what the shops are doing constitutes something illegal - otherwise they'd be leading shop owners out in handcuffs.

This...

cr250chevy
10-25-2013, 6:42 PM
I have a friend who's been Cerakoting in Orange County for more than 8 years, mostly custom automotive parts. He has a storefront; this is his livelihood. Due to the recent demand of firearm refinishing as a whole he called the CADOJ, BATFE, and Cerakote, all told him he had to have an FFL in order to blast and paint receivers.

This is true from what I have heard.

cr250chevy
10-25-2013, 6:46 PM
so a non-FFL can work on a receiver legally as long as the owner is present. so, if a person brings a "legal" receiver to a person, can that person do unlicensed gunsmithing to the receiver? ATF has stated that the currently marketed "80% AR receivers" are not legally firearms, but as soon as any additional work is done to the block of aluminum, that it now is legally considrered a firearm. So, if the owner does some machining steps, such as drill a couple holes in the FCG area, then that is a legal firearm in the eyes of the ATF. Later on, they should be able to have a non-FFL do additional non-licensed gunsmithing on that firearm for them if they remain onsite with the firearm.

The purpose of gun laws; to make them so convoluted that NO ORDINARY PERSON can't/ don't/ won't ever fully understand them. Thus making people either; 1) good people criminals, 2) too afraid to buy/own/shoot firearms.

jukyu-juichi
10-25-2013, 7:24 PM
I have a friend who's been Cerakoting in Orange County for more than 8 years, mostly custom automotive parts. He has a storefront; this is his livelihood. Due to the recent demand of firearm refinishing as a whole he called the CADOJ, BATFE, and Cerakote, all told him he had to have an FFL in order to blast and paint receivers.

I was thinking you couldn't have an FFL work on an 80% receiver, as it is not officially a handgun, but that once it is a handgun you could then have it worked on by an FFL.

I wasn't thinking about the OP taking it to a non-FFL afterwards to get the work done, and was careful to word it to state what was legal within the gun laws.

Can an FFL work on a 80% frame? I thought they would need to be a manufacture (07) to do so. Otherwise it would be impossible to manufacture if the firearm wasn't for personal use. But if they didn't have a manufacture license, they couldn't manufacture it legally...

I saw some ebay auctions for cerakote of a receiver, and that must mean the receiver needs to be complete or they can't work on it. Otherwise that would be a federal violation to transport interstate.

NOTE TO SELF - plan on doing the cerakote yourself if you want it at some point, save yourself a headache...getting an FFL involved will only cost extra money...lol

19K
10-25-2013, 10:28 PM
CNC shops are not the issue....c'mon guys, Christ, inject some logic here....like I said in my previous post.

The purpose of the 80% percent build,was for what?....I will let you all tell me what it is/was for....and it wasn't to save money.

like I said earlier, you cant go to a gun shop and buy a lower and have it sold to you as a pistol.

I can build a pistol using this method for about 1/2 the price of finding and then buying a pistol AR.

NorCalDustin
10-26-2013, 9:39 AM
An 80% can be done with basic hand tools and time... A File set, a hand drill, some clamps, a dremel is nice, etc...

BMartin1776
10-26-2013, 12:27 PM
An 80% can be done with basic hand tools and time... A File set, a hand drill, some clamps, a dremel is nice, etc...

most of us don't have the equip to do it its why when we got onto group buys we did only those who offered build parties

jukyu-juichi
10-26-2013, 2:08 PM
most of us don't have the equip to do it its why when we got onto group buys we did only those who offered build parties

When reading the cease and desist letter, it is clear that the BATFE is taking exception to "group" and/or "party".

The way I read the GCA it provides us with person rights to manufacture for personal use. This interpretation is up to discussion, but I will note that the BATFE seems to be taking a similar view.

I have been more than wlling to offer suggestions on how people can gain the knowledge and/or obtain the needed equipment/tools/machines so they can do that. I would also recommend other forums for that, where people are more familiar with those aspects of machining firearms, but there are certainly people here that know if you can weed through the kruft.

As NorCalDustin mentioned, you can finish these with minimal tools

The irony in this thread is that people are continuing to come up with ways to have a "group party" to help them as they don't feel comfortable doing the machining. Therein lies the real issue.

The BATFE is stating that they are interpreting the law to read that you have the personal right to manufacture firearms for your personal use. I think that is a very accurate interpretation of the GCA. If you disagree with them, the court is where it needs to be decided. Those doors are always open.

Do not try to come up with a solution which involves a "group", or that is a "party" in any way. This is my own personal suggestion. Any type of group purchase, any type of financial plan to offset the costs, getting together to do the *phsycal* work, etc...There is nothing wrong wtih getting together as a group, and having a party to discuss it, so that you understand what you need to do, then going home and doing the phsisical work yourself. Heck yeah, bring your own cold ones, and fire up the grill, nothing wrong with that...just that you can then take that information back and finish your receiver with your tools at your home/rental/space/etc...

That is what the BATFE seems to be telling people with the cease and desist letter, IMO, and I have to say it is the way I read the law myself at the most basic level of the GCA. Get a $2 file and chill for a bit, you'd have a receiver...it only gets easier from there, you don't like to do it all by hand, get a dremel...dremel takes too long and too difficult for you, get a drill press...you want to have a CNC that you can load a program off the inet to machine it for you, go buy one and do it. The point is, you can take it to the level you want, be it a file or a CNC, the choice is yours. Just do the physical work yourself.

Any time you start organizing and having parties to do the PHYSICAL work, I believe the BATFE will take exception to what you do. I interpret that out of their cease and desist letter. If you want to challenge, court doors are open.

umd
10-26-2013, 2:14 PM
When reading the cease and desist letter, it is clear that the BATFE is taking exception to "group" and/or "party".

For profit.

jukyu-juichi
10-26-2013, 2:29 PM
For profit.

For profit should be a given for anything.

Most all of the gun laws are in regard to commercial. It is only the GCA which provides us with the personal rights, actually.

Without the GCA, it might be impossible to manufacture in CA without an 07 Manufacturing license, it is only because of that which you can manufacture for personal use.

It is illegal to do anything in CA involving firearms pretty much, without having the proper license. There are some exceptions like inheritance, and such, but most all the laws clearly separate commercial and point out either a sale or transfer of firearms.

umd
10-26-2013, 2:36 PM
You still have shown no evidence to support your position that two guys can't get together to share a mill if nobody is being compensated and each person does their own physical work. The C&D letter certainly does not speak to that scenario.

jukyu-juichi
10-26-2013, 2:53 PM
You still have shown no evidence to support your position that two guys can't get together to share a mill if nobody is being compensated and each person does tier own physical work. The C&D letter certainly does not speak to that scenario.

No, actually I'm not saying that couldn't be the case, I think in some cases you would have the right to do so. However, there are ways of stretching that type of statement, so I was very clear not to include that.

As an example, let's say you go over and tell a friend what you need to do, and use his machine, that might be acceptable, but because IANAL, saying so will only draw a hornet's nest here on calguns.

To me, there are several things.

1. BATFE doesn't want anyone profiting in any way, this should always be a given considering PC32000 I believe.
2) You need to do the physical work on your machinery, you can't go use someone's $250,000 CNC that allows you to press a single button. They are even saying manual machines, they make it sound as if using a file would be illegal. I don't know how accurate, but it seems...
3) You need to do it at your premisses. IOW, the machinery needs to be separated from other people and under your control on your premisses.
4) No type of build party for the physical work.
5) you can't operate any type of business of mobile service or other when you show up and they use your pre-programmed machine, or even that you assist them in doing the manufacture.
6) You assist them by association, so don't try to weasel out of it.

In short, you need to do the physical work yourself.

The way this is heading it could end very badly for everyone, in that nobody will be able to manufacture for personal use.

In one way it seems the gun community should be more pro-active and try to get clarification on the manufacture for personal use. But much of the gun community is more mob based, and firearms is a religious issue in itself.

Bills like AB169 were targetted at the commercial aspects, sales and transfers. There was nothing to state about personal that I read. We can only manufacture a semi-automatic handgun by using SSE, that goes for manufacturing for personal use also.

Once SSE is gone, it will no longer be allowable (in most cases) to manufacture your own semi-automatic handgun. It's a sad state of affairs when you can't manufactuer what you can buy commercially, IMO.

umd
10-26-2013, 3:07 PM
Yes, you need to do the physical work yourself. I have seen nothing that says the equipment needs to be under your control or on your premises if it is not part of a business. Nothing I have seen says or suggests that someone couldn't come over and use my mill as long as I am not compensated or physically work on their receiver.

I could see an argument against sharing the cost if the mill as that means money would changing hands, but nothing would preclude one guy buying a mill, another buying some tooling, another guy buying a jig, and they all come together in a garage to each do their own work. No compensation, no business, no profit, and nobody doing each other's physical work.

I just see you drawing unnecessarily hard lines because you don't want to be bothered to think through what would be acceptable or not.

jukyu-juichi
10-26-2013, 4:19 PM
Yes, you need to do the physical work yourself. I have seen nothing that says the equipment needs to be under your control or on your premises if it is not part of a business. Nothing I have seen says or suggests that someone couldn't come over and use my mill as long as I am not compensated or physically work on their receiver.

I could see an argument against sharing the cost if the mill as that means money would changing hands, but nothing would preclude one guy buying a mill, another buying some tooling, another guy buying a jig, and they all come together in a garage to each do their own work. No compensation, no business, no profit, and nobody doing each other's physical work.

I just see you drawing unnecessarily hard lines because you don't want to be bothered to think through what would be acceptable or not.

Those are all lines to be drawn in court. I'm reading the same cease and desist letter that you are. I'm believing they have done their homework and are ready to take people to court based on the evidence they listed. I also believe they have much more evidence from said people that received their letters/visits and were served.

Some pieces I have gathered from Gunsmith Dan, who listed the items he's discussed with the DOJ. They ruled out the mobility, they ruled out taking your expertise to the person as a service, etc...they also ruled out any work unless the equipment was removed from the premisses and taken to your own premisses under your own control. That part sounded like a hand file used to fit a slide could be considered illegal if performed by another person other than yourself.

There were a lot of folks here that were certain the ATF/DOJ is over standing their position on the law. To those people I encourage you to take them on in court. If for nothing else, I'd like easier and better clarified laws in regard to manufacturing of firearms. And in my case I'm mostly interested in the laws that I need to follow for personal firearms that I personally manufacture in my own shop without any help from outsiders. That is how I interpret the GCA.

umd
10-26-2013, 4:31 PM
The part that you keep missing in all that is that they are trying to find ways to do business. Again nothing in the C&D or what gunsmith dan or Fresno CNC said applies to people not part of a business joining together not for compensation. And to be perfectly clear of course you have to do the work yourself, regardless of the tool, be it CNC, a manual mill, or a hand drill and files. Nobody is suggesting that somebody else could "file" the receiver for you.

You keep dodging the question, show what makes you think it's not ok for a friend to come by and use my mill for his 80% with no compensation.

jukyu-juichi
10-26-2013, 5:36 PM
The part that you keep missing in all that is that they are trying to find ways to do business.
I guess I really am the dip$#!T in this thread then. You can't make profit or it would be a business for firearms.

Anyone thinking so to have the person bring a paperweight into a business and leave with a firearm...well, you can't do that because you will be assisting them, or as the court likes to say, you were accomplice because of such. That much is a given.

The laws are mostly written to exclude your freedoms to possess firearms which is our basic 2A right. They are aimed at sales and transfers mostly, there is not too much about what we are allowed to possess, but what we can't.

Wasn't trying to dodge any Qs.

Here's something I've thought of where you could still have group build parties, but just not do the work there. Anyone that wants to whine about needing a place to go in and push a button and the machine craps out a receiver like Disneyland, this thread is not for you, move on...

There is nothing against the law from having people over in your own shop and showing them what is involved in doing the work on an actual machine. That part is completely legal, however, I say that with tongue in cheek...because there are all types of exceptions in the laws for ATF&E, so it wouldn't surprise me that you could be educating people on building "terrorist weapons" or something like that...but bear with me...we've implemented crap like that in the U.S. :rolleyes:

I will go one step further, that the shop could legally supply a fixture, that the person takes home with them along with the paperweight to do the work themselves. So, I would contend that you could have groups of people over your shop, you could fabricate fixtures that each one of those people would purchase from you, along with the information to build a firearm. Could be DVD, CD, PDF, images, whatever they can provide. They can even sell them the machine and tooling to do the work.

What I am saying is that it could be treated as an "education" so that people had what they need to go do it at home. At whatever level they could afford or wanted to pursue...

You could show them how to use a dremel. You could even teach them and show them to do it on a piece of steel that was NOT a firearm. You could show them how to slot rails using a dremel router table. You could teach and show them how to drill, mill, turn on the lathe, etc...but most importantly you could provide them with the lower, information, and knowledge to go finish it themselves. You could provide fixtures they would use as tooling to finish the stuff, along with other tools, as a package. There is nothing illegal with that. You could show them on pieces of steel that are not going to be a firearm.

Keep in mind that you might not be able to do that if you are an FFL, so this all takes that for fact, and that it is legal firearm, blah-blah-blah...FFL might not be able to provide 80% receivers, which is why I'm trying to clarify.

Nobody shouldn't expect to walk out of there with a 100% receiver, or somewhere between the time they walked in the door and the time they walked out, a firearm was manufactured. They can leave with an 80% receiver, that is not an issue. If you want to argue with the BATFE/DOJ in court, they seem anxious for such.

Gunsmith Dan mention that the moment his tool hits metal, the DOJ considers that 80% receiver to be a firearm.

What I don't know of is if that only holds true for licensed FFLs and/or personal/non-commercial (i.e., non-FFL machine shops also) or just what...it is possible that they are speaking of licensed FFLs like Gunsmith Dan. I don't see how I would violate that law if I am a citizen and get a paperweight, and then I do work on it and it is still a paperweight by law. I wanted to mention that caveat. Let's consider Gunsmith Dan's word to be how the BATFE would treat the issue as a worst case.

It would be legal to sell them an 80% frame, packet of info, and even teach and show them how to do it on an actual machine, just not with a firearm and don't touch it while they are in your shop. You could even sell them the machine and Gunsmith Dan feels there's a way to rent them all of it...but my experience is that you don't want to move metalworking machinery around, even the cheap chiwan recycled scrap steel machines are not light in some cases. Much of that can be lifted with people though...it is just not convenient.

I'm surprised nobody accused me of being the DOJ and/or BATFE yet...strange...I would have expected that from this crowd...lol

umd
10-26-2013, 5:39 PM
I guess I really am the dip$#!T

You said it

Tincon
10-26-2013, 5:44 PM
Gunsmith Dan mention that the moment his tool hits metal, the DOJ considers that 80% receiver to be a firearm.


Not advising this by any means, but it occurs to me that if:

1. Once any work is done on an 80% it IS a firearm.

2. Non-FFLs can work on broken firearms as long as owner is present at all times.

then

3. Perhaps if a person does SOME work on an 80% at home, but gets stuck and now has an actual (but non-functional) firearm for the purposes of relevant law, then they can take it to a non-FFL to assist in getting it functional (repair of a defectively manufactured firearm).

After all, it stands to reason that if it is already a firearm, it cannot be manufactured into one. I'm really not sure the "tool hits metal" standard is correct, but if it is this would seem to be a possibility. The idea being to use the official regulatory interpretations against the relevant agencies.

Breadfan
10-26-2013, 5:45 PM
tag

umd
10-26-2013, 5:53 PM
Gunsmith Dan mention that the moment his tool hits metal, the DOJ considers that 80% receiver to be a firearm.

Not advising this by any means, but it occurs to me that if:

1. Once any work is done on an 80% it IS a firearm.

2. Non-FFLs can work on broken firearms as long as owner is present at all times.

then

3. Perhaps if a person does SOME work on an 80% at home, but gets stuck and now has an actual (but non-functional) firearm for the purposes of relevant law, then they can take it to a non-FFL to assist in getting it functional (repair of a defectively manufactured firearm).

After all, it stands to reason that if it is already a firearm, it cannot be manufactured into one. I'm really not sure the "tool hits metal" standard is correct, but if it is this would seem to be a possibility. The idea being to use the official regulatory interpretations against the relevant agencies.

He [Gunsmith Dan] already stated his position on this:


Basically anyone doing non FFL gunsmithing may not do it as part of a business where they get compensated for their time, just the actual cost of what they paid for materials and/or supplies used ( no marking up prices).

A non FFL can coat a "80% paperweight" all day long without the owner being present. Once you start the process of turning it into a firearm then yes only a FFL can work on it and ONLY on parts that are actually broken, unless the owner is physically present during the whole process for a non FFL. In other words no you can not start the process and say "ohh oops I messed something up can you "repair" my lower so it functions correctly" that would be manufacturing.

That is the main reason I do not accept receivers/frames that have been started but not completed because if I was ever inspected it COULD look like I was finishing the milling on them.

Tincon
10-26-2013, 6:05 PM
So the position is, in all circumstances, people can't fix broken guns, even with the customer present 100% of the time, unless they have an FFL? I'd like to see a cite for that.

mag360
10-26-2013, 6:08 PM
can someone still put a piece of metal in a jig, place that jig in a CNC and push the start button then pay the person for the use of their CNC, or is that a no-no now??

Tincon
10-26-2013, 6:15 PM
can someone still put a piece of metal in a jig, place that jig in a CNC and push the start button then pay the person for the use of their CNC, or is that a no-no now??

No disrespect intended, but that question is exactly the subject of the 5+ pages of discussion in this thread. If anything that should tell you that there isn't a simple answer.

Dutch3
10-26-2013, 7:30 PM
I think the intent is that anyone can manufacture a firearm for personal use, but that person must do all of the work themselves.

If you place your part in a fixture and then run a program created and entered by someone else, you are not doing the work yourself. You are using the work of another to complete your piece.

Regardless of whether that person is receiving compensation seems irrelevant, and I wonder why ATF seems fixated on that point. A member here was providing use of equipment and instruction without compensation, but was still shut down. What was the reasoning, if not compensation?

I recently completed machining a receiver on a WWII-vintage drill press I found on craigslist a few years ago. It cost me $65 and has proven very useful. It is fairly rigid for a 'light' drill press, but nothing like a dedicated milling machine. Nevertheless, the job turned out fine.

I have been using a drill press since I was 8 years old and know when not to rush things, so that might have something to do with it. The job can be done with a drill press, a crappy vise and some patience. No big deal.

bill_k_lopez
10-26-2013, 7:38 PM
You said it

Second.

jukyu-juichi
10-26-2013, 7:40 PM
If you place your part in a fixture and then run a program created and entered by someone else, you are not doing the work yourself. You are using the work of another to complete your piece.

Obviously one of the reasons I have so much oposition on these calguns forums. I don't believe that. I believe they are only trying to leverage a loop hole in the law that will ruin it for everyone.

Those people are not even at dip$#!T status, they are basically criminals.

As I have stated earlier, they can pound sand as far as I'm concerned.

It's quite funny watching people say, "hey, I don't have enough brains or stones to manufacture my paperweight, but it's my right to be able to manufacture it...". That's got to be one of the lamest excuses in the book...lol

Tincon
10-26-2013, 7:46 PM
It's quite funny watching people say, "hey, I don't have enough brains or stones to manufacture my paperweight, but it's my right to be able to manufacture it...". That's got to be one of the lamest excuses in the book...lol

So, your position is that unless people have the technical skill to manufacture a firearm, without some arbitrary level technical assistance (greater than hand tools/files, but less than a programmed CNC machine), then they should not be allowed to exercise their right to build their own firearm? Yes, I can see how that would lead to some opposition on a forum dedicated to gun rights.

jukyu-juichi
10-26-2013, 8:01 PM
So, your position is that unless people have the technical skill to manufacture a firearm, without some arbitrary level technical assistance (greater than hand tools/files, but less than a programmed CNC machine), then they should not be allowed to exercise their right to build their own firearm? Yes, I can see how that would lead to some opposition on a forum dedicated to gun rights.

Well, I don't know if I would say that is my stand but that the way I interpret the law is that, "you are allowed to manufacture a firearm for personal use". What you are telling me is that they can't do that.

If they can't do that, I've tried to offer some advice on how to accomplish such.

Saying they can't finish their receiver is really lame, most could do it if they weren't so lazy. No shortage on lazy people in CA, we're like 1/3rd the total welfare for the entire U.S. in a single state. No wonder there are so many people that don't think they have enough stones to complete a paperweight...our society is pathetic...even when you have the right...tsk...tsk...tsk... :(

This thread has run it's course...

Dutch3
10-26-2013, 8:08 PM
So, your position is that unless people have the technical skill to manufacture a firearm, without some arbitrary level technical assistance (greater than hand tools/files, but less than a programmed CNC machine), then they should not be allowed to exercise their right to build their own firearm? Yes, I can see how that would lead to some opposition on a forum dedicated to gun rights.

Anyone wishing to manufacture a firearm should have the technical aptitude to do so. Otherwise, what is the point? Farming out the work to someone else does not equate to "manufacturing it yourself". Everyone has the right to manufacture their own firearm; not everyone has the ability. If someone without the ability wishes to manufacture, they also have every right to educate themselves on how to do so.

Everyone has the right to rebuild the engine and transmission in their car. Obviously, not everyone has the capability to do this themselves, so they pay someone else to do it. Or maybe they trade some work, or call in a favor. This does not mean they "did it themselves".

Unfortunately, in the case of a firearm, "not doing it yourself" has legal strings attached.

umd
10-26-2013, 8:09 PM
Obviously one of the reasons I have so much oposition on these calguns forums.

Is because

Those people are not even at dip$#!T status, they are basically criminals.

You have your opinion and you go around calling people you don't agree with dip****s and criminals.

This thread has run it's course...

Bye

jukyu-juichi
10-26-2013, 8:31 PM
Bye

I didn't say I'm leaving, just that this thread has run it's course.

Pound sand! ;)

BlackCatRacing#13
10-26-2013, 9:02 PM
[QUOTE=jukyu-juichi;12631162]I didn't say I'm leaving, just that this thread has run it's course.


I wanted to say that 2 Days ago

This THREAD has Hit the End and only Going Forward with Insults

Good Luck Brothers I am Done with This THREAD

Yes through all this Reading I have Learned Something Not Much but Something




.

Gunsmith Dan
10-27-2013, 12:45 AM
Tincon:

A person may repair his or other person's firearms as long as they receive no compensation for the work performed and only are reimbursed the actual amount they paid for materials/supplies (no marking up prices).

Anything else would be considered engaged in the business of repairing firearms and a FFL would be needed. The exception has always been if you have a non FFL working on your firearm as long as it is not their primary source of income they can, if you stay and watch your firearm the entire time (that means no going across the street grabbing lunch).

SO for example a Anodizer who's major source of income comes from anodizing flashlights and about 10% of the income comes from doing firearms would not be required to have a FFL. If all the Anodizer does is coat AR lowers then yes they would need a FFL to be able to be in business.

Goto the BATF&E website and download the PDF of the Rules and Regulations handbook book. There is many areas that covers gunsmithing which would be to long to post here.

CSACANNONEER
10-27-2013, 6:35 AM
So, your position is that unless people have the technical skill to manufacture a firearm, without some arbitrary level technical assistance (greater than hand tools/files, but less than a programmed CNC machine), then they should not be allowed to exercise their right to build their own firearm? Yes, I can see how that would lead to some opposition on a forum dedicated to gun rights.

That's almost my opinion. I believe that people do need some basic level of knowledge and aptitude to manufacture their own firearm. I've seen an 8 year old manufacture his own AK style rifle that came out better than many adult builds because, he had the basic aptitude to use hand tools to actually do his own work. But, if he had just been there to push a button rather than to actually do his own work, I would say that he did nothing but assist someone else to build THEIR firearm and not his.

9w1911
10-27-2013, 7:52 AM
I agree, I do not think it is a rights issue, no one is stopping you from buying all the tools, fund a project on Rocket hub for the lowers, buy the HF mill and go for it. Its kinda what the ATF is saying , you can have the weapon if you do the work. Plug and play on a cnc is not you doing the work in my opinion.
It seems there is a large divider between people who want to attempt this and those that dont and the atf is culling those that do not want to do the work.
Anyway I love the fact I can do this, I have not done it yet, but I am getting on it asap, I am raising the funds for a mini mill now and have in fact funded lowers on Rocket hub with a local Reno guy, he is actually very prompt.
I want to know how to do this and I want to have as many lowers as I can make and i want them to be perfect. SO I am willing to practice, to break some eggs to get it perfect. I also think it is a valued skill to know, if the shtf ever, you have a great skill set, so, why not learn? a drill press is under 50.00 on craigslist.

9w1911
10-27-2013, 7:54 AM
i have 80% lowers on the brain in the worst way haha
and I am staying away from the 1911 80%s i cant get side tracked, but oh well fun stuff

Gunsmith Dan
10-27-2013, 9:19 AM
That is EXACTLY the position the BATF&E is taking in interpeting the laws on the books. They are taking the position that John Doe off the street should not be able to produce firearms without a great deal of effort whether it be with hand tools or machines. Basically they have taken the position that "Personal" means you in person in your personal location and "Manufactured" means that tools and knowledge plus alot of effort is needed to produce a firearm.

So like every other administrative ruling they have made they believe manufacturing firearms should not be easy to do, that special tools, skills and alot of effort would be required. That the original laws were not written so that persons can mass produce their own firearms which could lead to illegal sales in their minds.

The BATF&E agents I talked to and the higher Level management are VERY stuck and talking in lock step in their positions.

and again to dispell the FUD in the posting:

BATF&E is not concerned with what type of machine being used, they are concerned with WHERE the work is being done.

That as long as the work is being done on property you own or are the primary listed in control of the property (rental, lease) you can use any type of machine.

shda5582
10-27-2013, 9:22 AM
Here is a thought: is it only in California that this is happening in, or is this being applied equally across the US? I think if it's only being done in CA there might be a window somehow to claim that they're not enforcing law, but only doing it because a state bill failed to get passed. Just a thought.

a1c
10-27-2013, 10:55 AM
That is EXACTLY the position the BATF&E is taking in interpeting the laws on the books. They are taking the position that John Doe off the street should not be able to produce firearms without a great deal of effort whether it be with hand tools or machines. Basically they have taken the position that "Personal" means you in person in your personal location and "Manufactured" means that tools and knowledge plus alot of effort is needed to produce a firearm.

So like every other administrative ruling they have made they believe manufacturing firearms should not be easy to do, that special tools, skills and alot of effort would be required. That the original laws were not written so that persons can mass produce their own firearms which could lead to illegal sales in their minds.

The BATF&E agents I talked to and the higher Level management are VERY stuck and talking in lock step in their positions.

and again to dispell the FUD in the posting:

BATF&E is not concerned with what type of machine being used, they are concerned with WHERE the work is being done.

That as long as the work is being done on property you own or are the primary listed in control of the property (rental, lease) you can use any type of machine.

It's interesting (and disheartening) considering it's a very old-fashioned way to look at things in an era where people order stuff from Amazon, upload CAD and EPS files for remote manufacturing or printing on another continent, and often share building/machining workspaces.

Basically (I have a side job in the wine industry), it would be like the TTB (a branch of the BATFE) saying that wineries should all own all their equipment and only produce wines bearing their labels in their own facilities. That would kill half the wineries and wine labels in Napa Valley, if not more.

jukyu-juichi
10-27-2013, 2:10 PM
and again to dispell the FUD in the posting:

BATF&E is not concerned with what type of machine being used, they are concerned with WHERE the work is being done.

It's interesting (and disheartening) considering it's a very old-fashioned way to look at things in an era where people order stuff from Amazon, upload CAD and EPS files for remote manufacturing or printing on another continent, and often share building/machining workspaces.

Hey, I'm back! :)

Although the CNC has not been the highlight yet, these cases have not gone to court. The BATFE has no choice but to take some action, IMO, they are the folks in charge of controlling firearms in America.

Look, before the inet, people couldn't collaborate as they do now, this concept has thrown the world on it's ear. The inet provides people with easy access to assemble and organize such parties.

As more and more people want to build their own firearms, the BATFE needs to figure out a way that they can have the control they need, and the build parties are not aligned to that way of thinking.

To all of the people that want to press a button and build a gun, go buy a CNC, or better yet, go buy a 3D printer and print yourself out a Disneyland style pop-gun.

CNC is an interesting topic in itself, and the reason I say that is that you now have Intellectual Property (IP) involved with the manufacturing. This is not just in the way it is used in the manufacturing process, but also in the ownership of the IP.

Taxes were/are still a widely debated issue in the same way firearms are being debated. I'm referring to issues with the inet. A person lives in NY. They are purchasing the item from a company in CA. Normally, there are laws that tell how how this works, but in *THIS* case, the person is in Paris when he's buying the product.

In regard to wine, I'm sure there is some issues that the ABC needs to deal with, in similar ways, but let's not get side tracked....

In regards to issue at hand, I have to say that when I hear of groups of people asseembling to help manufacture, in some cases like an assembly line, it doesn't sound very "personal". How do you deal with that type of problem if you are the BATFE?

The idea that something has been allowed to go on and claiming the BATFE let the activity go on will not hold up in court these days, IMO, that's like having a paper defense.

I don't think the BATFE is really against people manufacturing their own firearms, just that the build parties do not have enough control to know whether the people can legally own a firearm in CA. The BATFE is really responsible for firearms in America as a whole.

The law books are being torn apart and challenged all the time. Taxes, Same Sex Marriage, Firearms...

If you willing to fight and have the money to take on some of the issues, more power to you. I don't and I just want to build my own firearms, LEGALLY. The BATFE will have no choice but to take some action, and this seems like they have finally decided at least how they will approach it initially. Their cease and desist letter has not been taken to court yet.

The following is what the BATFE is dealing with. They will decide in court who is clever. Hopefully they have legal representation, I don't think that Dimitri guy in their videos would fair to well in court otherwise...my $0.02...and quite honestly to rely on Ares Armor and to think that case law may start to exist does raise some concern from me. I hope he has SOME legal representation...:p

-----------From Ares Armo web site----------
From the Ares Armor website:
http://aresarmor.com/store/NewsArticle/CeaseAndDesistLtr

"Update to this post: Please see attached Cease and Desist Letter from the BATFE.

Don't worry, we are clever little bastards; and build parties will be back."
-------End of Ares Armor web site data-------

Ford8N
10-27-2013, 3:28 PM
Obviously. The question is; is the ATF interpretation reasonable? Arguably it isn't.



It was my understanding they they were renting tools (things). Aparently if they were selling such tools it would be ok. If a person was very rich they could buy a new CNC machine every time they wanted to make something, preloaded with all the software to do it. Apparently that would be ok with the ATF. But if us proles that can't afford that want to rent machine time, that's illegal.

In other words, the dividing line seems to be the point at which a process makes getting guns too cheap and easy.Then it becomes manufacturing. Look at how much they are freaking out about 3D printers. That's a 100% home build. But they want to ban them, even though the product isn't that great.

Bottom line, they want to disarm this county. Cooperating with the creeping incrementalism by saying "hey this restriction is fine because it doesn't affect me (with the implication that you don't want to rock the boat because they might target you next) is... disappointing.

I agree. That's also probably the reason they started banning barrels. Because $99 AK kits made them to cheap and easy to make, for the common man to build.

Tincon
10-27-2013, 3:36 PM
I agree. That's also probably the reason they started banning barrels. Because $99 AK kits made them to cheap and easy to make, for the common man to build.

It's also the origin of the laws regulating "Saturday night specials" which of course evolved into the safe handgun roster.

fr33domfightr
10-28-2013, 10:01 AM
That is EXACTLY the position the BATF&E is taking in interpeting the laws on the books. They are taking the position that John Doe off the street should not be able to produce firearms without a great deal of effort whether it be with hand tools or machines. Basically they have taken the position that "Personal" means you in person in your personal location and "Manufactured" means that tools and knowledge plus alot of effort is needed to produce a firearm.

So like every other administrative ruling they have made they believe manufacturing firearms should not be easy to do, that special tools, skills and alot of effort would be required. That the original laws were not written so that persons can mass produce their own firearms which could lead to illegal sales in their minds.

The BATF&E agents I talked to and the higher Level management are VERY stuck and talking in lock step in their positions.

and again to dispell the FUD in the posting:

BATF&E is not concerned with what type of machine being used, they are concerned with WHERE the work is being done.

That as long as the work is being done on property you own or are the primary listed in control of the property (rental, lease) you can use any type of machine.

Reading over the C&D letter, it seems like the issue with the BATFE with Ares was their giving assistance and this was part of their normal business operations.

Based on this, it would seem to be OK if they just rented out their CNC machine, but provide NO assistance at all. Of course, they probably wouldn't let just anyone use the machine since they are expensive, but they might allow someone with experience to use the machine. That person might be someone you hire, or they just help you for free, to use the machine for your purposes.

Of course, I don't think this should be the case since, people hire all kinds of experts to help them solve problems, and that's not illegal.

dchang0
10-28-2013, 11:14 AM
I even tried the "mobile" approach but they came back with no because the vehicle would be registered to the business and therefore their property.


I wonder how the ATF would explain this situation, then:

I go rent a car from Budget Rent-A-Car. The car is registered to the business, Budget Rent-A-Car. It is their property. I drive the car away from their lot (their property) and rob a bank using it as a getaway car.

Is Budget Rent-A-Car now complicit of bank robbery?

Now, a different thought experiment:

I go rent a car from Budget Rent-A-Car. The Budget rental agent brings me the car. (They DO do this.) I go rob a bank and so on… Is Budget now complicit in the robbery?

Finally:

I go rent a car. The Budget rental agent comes with me to rob the bank. Is Budget now complicit in the robbery?

This one is interesting for two reasons:

a) It's very similar to a CNC shop lending their assistance to the private party making their 80%.

b) Is it the Budget rental agent that's the criminal for assisting me in the bank robbery, or is it Budget Rent-A-Car as a corporation that's the criminal?

Thus, is it the employee of Ares or Ares as a whole company, and so on?

We of course know the answers to the above experiments. ATF doesn't seem to get it about thought experiments #1 or #2 above. Budget can own the car and rent it out without being complicit in the crime, unless of course they are renting cars out knowing that they would be used for robberies. IOW, Budget could not advertise their cars for the purpose of being used as robbery getaway cars, nor could CNC shops advertise their rental mills for the purpose of being used to finish 80%s (kinda kills the profit motive).

We also know full well that the ATF will frequently LIE, either intentionally or out of incompetence.
---

We also have the new "sharing economy" coming up and smashing into traditional business models. AirBnb and Uber are totally angering the establishment with private individuals "lending" each other private property for fees.

The rent-a-CNC-to-finish-your-lower movement could benefit from Uber and AirBnb's own legal efforts.

---

I can't wait for the price of 3D printers that can print steel to come down to hobbyist prices and sizes. Let them try to stop that...

dchang0
10-28-2013, 11:24 AM
Another question: how does this affect gunsmithing colleges and courses? If I take my 80% frame to a gunsmith college who trains me in building a complete 1911, and I get to walk out of the course with a completed 1911 made using the college's machines, is the college now going to get shut down?

If gunsmithing courses aren't shut down, couldn't the 80% movement simply turn into a gunsmithing college course offered by multiple schools? We could even get college accreditation to make it completely legit.

SC_SD
10-28-2013, 1:12 PM
Sweet lord people, read Gunsmith Dan's answers, it is clear.

-- CANNOT BE A FOR PROFIT ENTERPRISE
-- SOME DISPUTE ABOUT NEXUS OF SMITH/OWNER/MACHINE/USED
------> confused about the above? See point #1

So, your position is that unless people have the technical skill to manufacture a firearm, without some arbitrary level technical assistance (greater than hand tools/files, but less than a programmed CNC machine), then they should not be allowed to exercise their right to build their own firearm?

Yes, exactly. You have the RIGHT to make for personal use, not the unmitigated guarantee irrespective of any other factors/parties involved.

What is different now is that the ATF just clarified the existing rule to mean that renting a CNC machine with pre-defined programming counts as mfg. on part of the CNC owner. He is in primary business of fabricating firearms.

If you acquire the skill, and have the tools, you have the right to manufacture. If you don't have the skill, or you don't have the tools, then NO, you cannot pay someone else to manufacture for you. That is the entire crux of this issue. That makes them "in business" which requires licensure.

Why not buy ten 80% lowers and practice drilling them by hand, file, owned machinery until you are an expert? You have the right to do that already. You don't and never did have a right to outsource that manufacture to a business. And the question isn't pushing the button, it's the commercial enterprise that leads to you pushing that button.

SC_SD
10-28-2013, 1:16 PM
Another question: how does this affect gunsmithing colleges and courses? If I take my 80% frame to a gunsmith college who trains me in building a complete 1911, and I get to walk out of the course with a completed 1911 made using the college's machines, is the college now going to get shut down?

If gunsmithing courses aren't shut down, couldn't the 80% movement simply turn into a gunsmithing college course offered by multiple schools? We could even get college accreditation to make it completely legit.

Gray area perhaps about you using their machines for personal property, but in your example you are paying for gunsmithing school. The product you are buying is education, not access to a machine, that is different.

fr33domfightr
10-28-2013, 1:53 PM
Sweet lord people, read Gunsmith Dan's answers, it is clear.

-- CANNOT BE A FOR PROFIT ENTERPRISE
-- SOME DISPUTE ABOUT NEXUS OF SMITH/OWNER/MACHINE/USED
------> confused about the above? See point #1



Yes, exactly. You have the RIGHT to make for personal use, not the unmitigated guarantee irrespective of any other factors/parties involved.

<snip>

If you acquire the skill, and have the tools, you have the right to manufacture. If you don't have the skill, or you don't have the tools, then NO, you cannot pay someone else to manufacture for you. That is the entire crux of this issue. That makes them "in business" which requires licensure.


If you rent the machine, and someone with knowledge teaches you about operation (not affiliated with the rental company) and volunteers there time to help you (your assistant), that should be perfectly fine, right?

CSACANNONEER
10-28-2013, 1:55 PM
If you rent the machine, and someone with knowledge teaches you on operation (not affiliated with the rental company) volunteers there time to help you (your assistant), that should be perfectly fine, right?

Do you have someone willing to risk their machines on this?

SC_SD
10-28-2013, 2:11 PM
If you rent the machine, and someone with knowledge teaches you about operation (not affiliated with the rental company) and volunteers there time to help you (your assistant), that should be perfectly fine, right?

The stipulation is that you have ownership of the machine. That was the nexus part in my reply.

1.) If you rent a CNC machine, bring it to your home, and then a knowledgable friend unaffiliated with the rental of the CNC machine assists you with his knowledge, looking over your shoulder, in your garage, while you operate the machine, for no compensation, and he doesn't engage in such advice regularly with others for compensation, then yes, that should be fine.

2.) If you go to my home, use my machine, even if non-commercially, they are saying that that does not count as personal manufacturing and is a no-no.

The confusion at this point is whether the second interpretation is a legal over-reach, not the first interpretation, or the other scenarios outlined in the reply of mine that you quoted.

Tincon
10-28-2013, 2:14 PM
Yes, exactly. You have the RIGHT to make for personal use, not the unmitigated guarantee irrespective of any other factors/parties involved.

What is different now is that the ATF just clarified the existing rule to mean that renting a CNC machine with pre-defined programming counts as mfg. on part of the CNC owner. He is in primary business of fabricating firearms.

If you acquire the skill, and have the tools, you have the right to manufacture. If you don't have the skill, or you don't have the tools, then NO, you cannot pay someone else to manufacture for you. That is the entire crux of this issue. That makes them "in business" which requires licensure.


I think some people are missing my point here, which is my fault. Let me make it more clear.

So, your position is that unless people have the technical skill to manufacture a firearm, without some arbitrary level of technical assistance (greater than hand tools/files, but less than a programmed CNC machine), then they should not be allowed to exercise their right to build their own firearm?

In other words, the more technology you need, (arguably) the less skill you need. Skill required looks something like this:
file only>+ drill>+ mill>+ Lathe> CNC machine> pre-programmed CNC machine

So the ATF is saying at some arbitrary point, renting a tool becomes "manufacturing". Or maybe they are just saying, at the point where it becomes "really easy". Which is still saying that the manufacturing question is answered by some arbitrary skill point (easy being different for different people). There are also other issues with this basis.

Some people (including board members here) are disabled. Missing hands. I have veteran friends with issues like this. I would have trouble standing at a mill for hours working due to similar service connected issues. So now we are talking not just skill, but physical condition as a requirement to exercise a right. I think there are problems with this approach.

SC_SD
10-28-2013, 2:15 PM
That all seems pretty logical and rational but what if I go rent a car and the Budget rental agent comes with me to the CNC build party? :confused:

Not sure of what you are asking but he wouldn't be party to the manufacturing. The owner of the CNC machine / owner of the property where it is taking place would be. This is why people like Gunsmith Dan get a C&D and not you. He is the owner/operator who was mfg. by proxy.

The rentacar guy would just be a lookey-loo with no finished receiver!

fr33domfightr
10-28-2013, 2:17 PM
Do you have someone willing to risk their machines on this?

It's possible, I might be able to find one. And if they know my assistant is fluent in operation, maybe they wouldn't have an issue with it.

Tincon
10-28-2013, 2:21 PM
Do you have someone willing to risk their machines on this?

I'm thinking about something like this. Obviously seizure of the machines would be the beginning of a legal fight. Kickstarter? lol

SC_SD
10-28-2013, 2:24 PM
I think some people are missing my point here, which is my fault. Let me make it more clear.

So, your position is that unless people have the technical skill to manufacture a firearm, without some arbitrary level of technical assistance (greater than hand tools/files, but less than a programmed CNC machine), then they should not be allowed to exercise their right to build their own firearm?

Thank you for the clarifications. Thats said, I don't read it as ease of use or CNC being the issue, it is the relationship bw owner of the receiver being able to manufacture personally, and the understanding that he is employing another party expressly to facilitate his manufacture (whether by dremel or CNC is immaterial). I used the word nexus in the legal sense, I think that concept is the one that applies when determining who and what.

In other words, the more technology you need, (arguably) the less skill you need. Skill required looks something like this:
file only>+ drill>+ mill>+ Lathe> CNC machine> pre-programmed CNC machine

So the ATF is saying at some arbitrary point, renting a tool becomes "manufacturing". Or maybe they are just saying, at the point where it becomes "really easy". Which is still saying that the manufacturing question is answered by some arbitrary skill point (easy being different for different people). There are also other issues with this basis.

I disagree with your interpretation of their concern. It is the nexus and the engagement of commercial firearms mfg. by proxy. Again, whether by dremel or CNC is immaterial to that view.

Some people (including board members here) are disabled. Missing hands. I have veteran friends with issues like this. I would have trouble standing at a mill for hours working due to similar service connected issues. So now we are talking not just skill, but physical condition as a requirement to exercise a right. I think there are problems with this approach.

This issue you raise has more legs. Respectfully, and with defernce to those that are differently abled, I don't necessarily agree that the right to ownership and use of firearms has complete overlap on the right to manufacture, especially (and this is the critical part) if such manufacture by the disabled person is necessitated by the third party who receives compenasation. They haven't lost the core right of bearing / owning / using firearms, and losing hands unfortunately impinges on a ton of things, one of which may be the operation of machinery / precision use of such machinery.

Much in the same way I have a right to read what I like, but if I am blind, and the published doesn't make an audiobook then despite my right I may just not be able to enjoy that book, which I agree is a shame. Not an apples to apples comparison, but it's more of a life isn't fair limitation that a legal one.



EDITED TO ADD: I enjoy the discussion, and I will not engage in the ad hominens or whatever. Tincon, fr33dom, and many others, are respectful and we're having a discussion. To those that just want to bash or namecall, don't bother. To point is to hash this out.

fr33domfightr
10-28-2013, 2:24 PM
The stipulation is that you have ownership of the machine. That was the nexus part in my reply.

1.) If you rent a CNC machine, bring it to your home, and then a knowledgable friend unaffiliated with the rental of the CNC machine assists you with his knowledge, looking over your shoulder, in your garage, while you operate the machine, for no compensation, and he doesn't engage in such advice regularly with others for compensation, then yes, that should be fine.

2.) If you go to my home, use my machine, even if non-commercially, they are saying that that does not count as personal manufacturing and is a no-no.

The confusion at this point is whether the second interpretation is a legal over-reach, not the first interpretation, or the other scenarios outlined in the reply of mine that you quoted.

I was looking at it more from the C&D letter. Which didn't mention anything about people having to own the equipment, nor having to use it at home. I don't have a garage, so I'd have no where to put one.

SC_SD
10-28-2013, 2:34 PM
Yes, I am arriving at that conclusion based on the commercial enterprise aspect inherent in the fact that it is rented from an entity for the purpose of completion.

That would make the lessor a manufacturer.

To avoid that, there was some idea (probably a few pages ago) that direct possession of the rented machine would remove the implication that the owner of that machine was engaging in mfg. by proxy, and that seems plausible to me. Unless, of course, the entire course of CNC renting was to skirt the mfg. by proxy. The CNC machine owner would have to literally have no idea what or why you need his machine, just that you are freelance fabricating something with it. If the owner knew it was a firearm receiver, then the same limitations would apply as going to a brick and mortar CNC place, as he would be mfg. by proxy.

umd
10-28-2013, 2:41 PM
So the ATF is saying at some arbitrary point, renting a tool becomes "manufacturing". Or maybe they are just saying, at the point where it becomes "really easy". Which is still saying that the manufacturing question is answered by some arbitrary skill point (easy being different for different people). There are also other issues with this basis.

No, I think what they are saying is that they don't care what the machine is, just where you put it.

SC_SD
10-28-2013, 2:43 PM
No, I think what they are saying is that they don't care what the machine is, just where you put it.

and more pertinently, who owns it, and whether they receive compensation for use.

umd
10-28-2013, 2:47 PM
and more pertinently, who owns it, and whether they receive compensation for use.

Yes, my answer was specifically in the context of a rental. If you rent it, you must use it at your own personal location. If no compensation is involved and the machine is not part of a business, the location may be less of an issue.

Edwood
10-28-2013, 2:56 PM
Give an inch, take a......

They'll ban 80% lowers sooner than you think. Especially in California first.

Falstaff
10-28-2013, 2:59 PM
The wide availability CAD/CAM software and hardware WILL be the next industrial revolution. Governments recognize this, are worried and as we can see they are impotently flopping around the deck in spasms self righteous indignation at their loss of control. Picture a british lord saying "Oh NOOOO, the slaves are arrrrrrming themselves, ARREST them immeeeddddiately!". Fortunately most governments are utterly incompetent and this wave will crash right OVER them. The 80% wave is just the first ebb tide prior to the tsunami!

SC_SD
10-28-2013, 2:59 PM
Yes, my answer was specifically in the context of a rental. If you rent it, you must use it at your own personal location. If no compensation is involved and the machine is not part of a business, the location may be less of an issue.

Gotcha and agreed. If a machine owner made it a regular habit to do this however, helping other CGers, it may still come under the nexus question, which is "is the individual who is using the machine the only manufacturer", which if not, may still run afoul of the individual manufacturing for personal use portion of the law.

Suppose I have a CNC machine, and I hand-designed a receiver design. You are my only friend in the whole wide world, and I invite you over to finish your receiver on my machine with my design. To top it off, I am out of town, you are physically the only one there. Under a strict reading, I would still be manufacturing for you based on my machine, my design, my property. If you borrow my machine and take it to your house, than plausibly it could be for any purpose, but specifically it is so you can manufacture something, and that I believe is the line short of you just doing the whole thing with your tools in your home.

SC_SD
10-28-2013, 3:02 PM
Give an inch, take a......

They'll ban 80% lowers sooner than you think. Especially in California first.

I agree, and if this "who's pressing the button" nonsensical interpretation continues, I think the eventual outcome of such reasoning will be exceptionally ****ty for all parties/stakeholders invovled

SC_SD
10-28-2013, 3:10 PM
The wide availability CAD/CAM software and hardware WILL be the next industrial revolution. Governments recognize this, are worried and as we can see they are impotently flopping around the deck in spasms self righteous indignation at their loss of control. Picture a british lord saying "Oh NOOOO, the slaves are arrrrrrming themselves, ARREST them immeeeddddiately!". Fortunately most governments are utterly incompetent and this wave will crash right OVER them. The 80% wave is just the first ebb tide prior to the tsunami!

Exactly, you don't even need an 80%! Just get a chunk of aluminum and do the whole dang thing yourself.

In fact, my hero/idol Boris made an AK 47 from a shovel (http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/threads/179192-DIY-Shovel-AK-photo-tsunami-warning!), and a fabricated his own Iron Glock (http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/threads/214022-Iron-Glock). If mfg. expertise is total gallons of sea water in the ocean, Boris is Pacific and Atlantic combined, and I am a 2oz sippy cup.

What we stand to lose is the right to manufacture. Boris will still have the skill-set, but he will no longer be able to flex his brain power and experience legally. That is a worse outcome than an individual losing the button-pushing ease of a CNC you rent from a third party.

jtake
10-28-2013, 3:10 PM
I think that the pertinent facts are that:

(1) Ares sells the 80% lower
(2) Ares provides machines "on-site" to mill the 80% receivers
(3) Ares charges for the use of their mills to finish the receivers.

Because of these combined actions of Ares, ATF is saying that Ares is manufacturing firearms for sale.

This is a fine line that the ATF is drawing as I understand that Ares has already sold the 80% receiver before the milling, thereby passing title to the buyer. As the buyer now owns the 80% receiver, Ares is not making a firearm for sale or distribution -- Ares only sold a chunk of metal and rented equipment.

Ares' actions would be better described as assisting/aiding in the making of a firearm that will not be for sale or distribution. By the definition, this is not "manufacturing a firearm" under the statute, and is not regulated. If the buyer was going to sell or distribute the finished firearm, perhaps one could charge Ares with conspiracy to illegally manufacture firearms (because of the sale or distribution aspect), but the ATF is not targeting individuals who used Ares equipment in addition to Ares.

ATF has gone after these types of operations in the past -- google Richard Celata in Montana who was raided by ATF for his sales of 80% pieces back in 2007 (charges eventually dropped), and also received a cease and desist letter in 2010 (not sure if/how resolved).

Depending on how the vendors want to tackle this problem, they can sue the ATF seeking a declaratory judgment that what they are doing is legal. Of course, that costs money and they may not have the deep pockets or willingness to take on the ATF head on.

allgirlswguns
10-28-2013, 3:17 PM
Where to start.........
To the ATF (with all due respect): I hereby exercise my first amendment right to freedom of speech: In my opinion the right to build our own firearm emanates from the 2nd Amendment. Neither the Second Amendment nor the right to freedom of association comes from some permission from your organization. We realize that you are scared to death that this "80%" thing has become so popular that your organization is fighting for it's own relevance. Again, with all due respect, tough ****. With the democratization of manufacturing, where more and more people are able to "manufacture" or complete more complex things like firearms themselves through the widespread availability of computer aided technology like "CNC's" and 3D printers, your "control" organization and other regulatory agencies like yours are going to become obsolete......despite your best draconian efforts. The people have spoken.
To be sure you have force on your side.....but be advised , it is transitory. This is the US and we don't have Secret Police. These "Cease and Desist" actions where you claim that your demands not be published are a violation of the 1st Amendment. If you have a legal opinion you are required to publish it BEFORE you attempt to deny people their Constitutional and civil rights. Nowhere in the regulations mentioning self building a firearm does it say what level of tools can or cannot be used, nor does it define some special location where this right can be exercised. Your unpublished "opinion" does not qualify as law.
Just like recording industry technology has come full circle and is now in the hands of the people, so too will the ability to manufacture everything from custom toilets that defy so-called "Low flush Congress toilets" to firearms to practically anything else that people want. And these will be "manufacturable" in their own homes and will be traded amongst the worlds population without government ability to control them. Get used to it.
The belief that you share with almost all other government organizations ....that so-called liberal democracies run by cleptocrats, control freaks and their fascist business comrades are the final evolution of governance on this planet is GROSSLY inaccurate.
The loss of control over firearms is a drop in the bucket compared to all the tax revenue that every branch of leeching government is going to lose when half of the items that people purchase will be "manufacturable" , transferable and customizable by them in the comfort of their own homes.
Finally, amongst all the other arguments listed on this thread against your acts of actual tyranny, you stand to lose solely on the grounds that you are DISENFRANCHISING THE POOR . By inferring that only a person who currently has the expensive equipment or has the disposable income necessary to purchase said equipment can exercise their right is one of the most losable arguments we can imagine. It defy s common sense, common law, commercial law and completely lacks any flavor of American jurisprudence to date. In fact has not your President and his minions at your sister organization the DOJ sued several states for their attempt at so-called "voter ID" laws.....primarily arguing that these laws "DISENFRANCHISE THE POOR"!?
Your time is coming to an end. It is truly inevitable.

PS To all those saying that so-called "build parties" (and I agree that for uncomfortable but all too real political reasons they shouldn't be called "parties") done by businesses are just some greedy money venture.....bah humbug. To my knowledge the US is still a somewhat free market. By the same hater logic Coca-Cola "takes advantage" (otherwise known as "capitalizing") on people not knowing how or not wanting to have to "build" the ingredients of their soft drink. So what? People want their product and some are hooked on it. Big deal.

Gutpile66
10-28-2013, 4:29 PM
Where to start.........
To the ATF (with all due respect): I hereby exercise my first amendment right to freedom of speech: In my opinion the right to build our own firearm emanates from the 2nd Amendment. Neither the Second Amendment nor the right to freedom of association comes from some permission from your organization. We realize that you are scared to death that this "80%" thing has become so popular that your organization is fighting for it's own relevance. Again, with all due respect, tough ****. With the democratization of manufacturing, where more and more people are able to "manufacture" or complete more complex things like firearms themselves through the widespread availability of computer aided technology like "CNC's" and 3D printers, your "control" organization and other regulatory agencies like yours are going to become obsolete......despite your best draconian efforts. The people have spoken.
To be sure you have force on your side.....but be advised , it is transitory. This is the US and we don't have Secret Police. These "Cease and Desist" actions where you claim that your demands not be published are a violation of the 1st Amendment. If you have a legal opinion you are required to publish it BEFORE you attempt to deny people their Constitutional and civil rights. Nowhere in the regulations mentioning self building a firearm does it say what level of tools can or cannot be used, nor does it define some special location where this right can be exercised. Your unpublished "opinion" does not qualify as law.
Just like recording industry technology has come full circle and is now in the hands of the people, so too will the ability to manufacture everything from custom toilets that defy so-called "Low flush Congress toilets" to firearms to practically anything else that people want. And these will be "manufacturable" in their own homes and will be traded amongst the worlds population without government ability to control them. Get used to it.
The belief that you share with almost all other government organizations ....that so-called liberal democracies run by cleptocrats, control freaks and their fascist business comrades are the final evolution of governance on this planet is GROSSLY inaccurate.
The loss of control over firearms is a drop in the bucket compared to all the tax revenue that every branch of leeching government is going to lose when half of the items that people purchase will be "manufacturable" , transferable and customizable by them in the comfort of their own homes.
Finally, amongst all the other arguments listed on this thread against your acts of actual tyranny, you stand to lose solely on the grounds that you are DISENFRANCHISING THE POOR . By inferring that only a person who currently has the expensive equipment or has the disposable income necessary to purchase said equipment can exercise their right is one of the most losable arguments we can imagine. It defy s common sense, common law, commercial law and completely lacks any flavor of American jurisprudence to date. In fact has not your President and his minions at your sister organization the DOJ sued several states for their attempt at so-called "voter ID" laws.....primarily arguing that these laws "DISENFRANCHISE THE POOR"!?
Your time is coming to an end. It is truly inevitable.

PS To all those saying that so-called "build parties" (and I agree that for uncomfortable but all too real political reasons they shouldn't be called "parties") done by businesses are just some greedy money venture.....bah humbug. To my knowledge the US is still a somewhat free market. By the same hater logic Coca-Cola "takes advantage" (otherwise known as "capitalizing") on people not knowing how or not wanting to have to "build" the ingredients of their soft drink. So what? People want their product and some are hooked on it. Big deal.

Don't know about you fellas, but I'm gonna smoke a cigarette.

CSACANNONEER
10-28-2013, 5:03 PM
PS To all those saying that so-called "build parties" (and I agree that for uncomfortable but all too real political reasons they shouldn't be called "parties") done by businesses are just some greedy money venture.....bah humbug. To my knowledge the US is still a somewhat free market. By the same hater logic Coca-Cola "takes advantage" (otherwise known as "capitalizing") on people not knowing how or not wanting to have to "build" the ingredients of their soft drink. So what? People want their product and some are hooked on it. Big deal.

As someone who has probably hosted more true build parties than anyone else, I have to disagree with you. The simple fact is a true build party is a bunch of guys and gals getting together and pooling their resources to manufacture their own firearms. The difference being, I never was in the business of manufacturing firearms or even helping others to manufacture firearms at my location. It was not part of any business venture. In fact, I made it a point to not profit from build parties otherwise, it could have been easier to argue that I was illegally (without a license) manufacturing firearms with the help of others. Instead, I if I had kept better records, I would have shown an overall financial loss. Long before the Aholes at Ares started their idiotic business practices and advertising, I had spoken with ATF at several different SHOT Shows about what I was doing and how to stay legal. If one manufactures firearms or helps to manufacture firearms as part or all of their business, they need an 07FFL and to follow the guidelines and laws associated with that license. Why is this so hard for you to understand? I'm not against capitalism. In fact, you'll find plenty of my posts where I defend capitalism even if it hurts me or others (ammo flippers is a good example). I obviously support people manufacturing their own firearms for personal use since, there probably have been more true homebuilds manufactured at my home than any other location in Ca and possibly the country. I would like to see homebuilds stay as legal as they have been for the last 237 years. But, if these idiots running these one stop shops keep it up, I see the hobby ended or being highly regulated in the near future. Anyway, that's my experienced take on it. I'm just wondering how much real life experience you have to base your seemingly emotional opinion on????

Gutpile66
10-28-2013, 7:43 PM
As someone who has probably hosted more true build parties than anyone else, I have to disagree with you. The simple fact is a true build party is a bunch of guys and gals getting together and pooling their resources to manufacture their own firearms. The difference being, I never was in the business of manufacturing firearms or even helping others to manufacture firearms at my location. It was not part of any business venture. In fact, I made it a point to not profit from build parties otherwise, it could have been easier to argue that I was illegally (without a license) manufacturing firearms with the help of others. Instead, I if I had kept better records, I would have shown an overall financial loss. Long before the Aholes at Ares started their idiotic business practices and advertising, I had spoken with ATF at several different SHOT Shows about what I was doing and how to stay legal. If one manufactures firearms or helps to manufacture firearms as part or all of their business, they need an 07FFL and to follow the guidelines and laws associated with that license. Why is this so hard for you to understand? I'm not against capitalism. In fact, you'll find plenty of my posts where I defend capitalism even if it hurts me or others (ammo flippers is a good example). I obviously support people manufacturing their own firearms for personal use since, there probably have been more true homebuilds manufactured at my home than any other location in Ca and possibly the country. I would like to see homebuilds stay as legal as they have been for the last 237 years. But, if these idiots running these one stop shops keep it up, I see the hobby ended or being highly regulated in the near future. Anyway, that's my experienced take on it. I'm just wondering how much real life experience you have to base your seemingly emotional opinion on????

To those of us who believe that our "leaders" and their police have overstepped the limits of power as spelled out by our founding fathers "real life experience" means nothing.

This thread and others like it simply point out the large margins of division within our own ranks.

Edvil91
10-28-2013, 9:59 PM
This interpretation is simply discriminating against low income people, not about safety or regulation issues. Unfortunately, lots of people can't afford their own machinery and/or can afford the real estate to hold machinery at. Is the ATF saying that just because I can't afford my own mill or drill press that I can't exercise my 2nd amendment rights? The only way a low income person can machine his or her own firearm is to buy a portion of a machines life and use it to do the work, in other words "rent" it. However, machinery depreciates, so every time you use it the less life it has left, so it's like buying a portion of the life rather than "renting". So, ATF, is it wrong for a financial troubled person to exercise their rights?

I can't believe that gov. agencies, taxpayer funded, can strip the rights of a whole class of people. You should be ashamed of yourselves!!! I got a solution for you. Since Eric Holder and the president are friends, partners-in-crime, get the president to subsidize mills and drill presses and provide one to every person that would be interested in one. If no, then let the average joe be an American and not some second class citizen!

SelfGovernor
10-28-2013, 10:01 PM
To those of us who believe that our "leaders" and their police have overstepped the limits of power as spelled out by our founding fathers "real life experience" means nothing.

This thread and others like it simply point out the large margins of division within our own ranks.

Yup Oh the error of "Living" laws...:oji:

Gunsmith Dan
10-28-2013, 10:45 PM
As I and some others have posted many times before ......


The restrictions that the BATF&E are imposing are on businesses that are profiting from firearm related activities.

A Public Community College (Lassen College is a California Public Community College and the only one teaching Gunsmithing in California) is a not for profit school providing education. They would be exempt from the restrictions as long as you were the only one in class to handle the receiver/frame.

Ok for Tincon and a few other will post this AGAIN for like the 10th time so and hopefully this time it will sink in, I am gonna use BIG LETTERS so it can be read easily:

The BATF&E does not care what machines you use, they are concerned where the work is being done and by whom

as long as the work is being done by you at a location you own, control or have permission to use without compensating anyone for the use you could use a STAR TREK replicator as far as they are concerned, as long as the receiver/frame can be detected in a metal detector.


Those of you complaining about low income people having access and the handicap etc. have to understand that the only way to get around these restrictions is this:

THE REPEAL OF THE 1968 GUN CONTROL ACT

Unfortunately there was no provisions made for the handicap and the ADA did not exist at that time.

jukyu-juichi
10-29-2013, 12:20 AM
The BATF&E does not care what machines you use, they are concerned where the work is being done and by whom

Hope you don't mind I reduced that size. But that is the most fundamental statement, and it actually makes sense to me.

I do find a bit of irony in that I was dog piled on with a thread I started on Manufacturing for personal use. People were telling me what was defined as a manufacture. But the pure fact is that what is really at stake is nothing to do with any commercial parts in any way. This has to do with the time the paperweight becomes a firearm by law, and who does the actual work on that paperweight.

My thread was started on 09/27/13, and the Librarian closed it on 10/02 (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=829422).

That makes me scratch my head. I've read quite a bit of stuff on calguns, as well as other gun related sites. I hadn't seen anyone who took a simple and basic view of the GCA rights to manufacture for our own personal use, as I had. Coincidence ? I have no idea...but it does make me wonder...

I have seen posted that as of 10/16/13, at least 6 shops had been served with BATFE cease and desist letters.

But here is the real irony to the saga I explain to you. One of my primary goals in coming to calguns was to assure myself that what I had read on the Calguns Foundation site was correct and that I was doing something that was legal. I found out that it wasn't. First lesson learned...don't believe everything you read on the internet. But I learned what I needed to know about the SSE so I can build what I planned. Problem solved at that point.

So the beauty for me in reading the cease and desist letter is that the BATFE has pretty much outlined it for me, exactly as I interpreted the GCA68.

What I want to do is exactly what they want people to do. They want people to manufacture their own firearms themselves, with their own machines on their own premisses. If you need to pay anyone for any type of service, it is a business pure and simple and they need an 07 FFL. The BATFE pretty much spelled it out.

There are a lot of people here pretty confident they will "beat the system" , and find a way to be up and running in short order. I'd say the BATFE is claiming your days are over. At least I do not see how anyone can manufacture a firearm in the U.S.A. for personal use and abide to the GCA statement if they don't do it themselves. And claiming you are renting someone else's machine to do it is crap when you have no clue as to what you are doing. If you can't manufacture the firearm yourself, you obviously can't abide to the GCA. But I will be watching to see how you people can overturn their position with loop holes. :)

fr33domfightr
10-29-2013, 6:11 AM
So if I use my own equipment, on property I own or are permitted to use, I am allowed(?) to build my own handgun? In California?

umd
10-29-2013, 6:15 AM
as long as the work is being done by you at a location you own, control or have permission to use without compensating anyone for the use you could use a STAR TREK replicator as far as they are concerned, as long as the receiver/frame can be detected in a metal detector.

Wait... does the metal detector part only apply to using a star trek replicator? If the receiver has to be metal then what does that do to the polymer frames?

12voltguy
10-29-2013, 6:26 AM
So if I use my own equipment, on property I own or are permitted to use, I am allowed(?) to build my own handgun? In California?

yes,just follow all laws.
in case of say an ar15 pistol
you must do it so it's not an unsafe since it's not on the roster.
IE: SINGLE SHOT,BB SLED over 10.5" & min 6" bbl

19K
10-29-2013, 6:48 AM
This interpretation is simply discriminating against low income people, not about safety or regulation issues. Unfortunately, lots of people can't afford their own machinery and/or can afford the real estate to hold machinery at. Is the ATF saying that just because I can't afford my own mill or drill press that I can't exercise my 2nd amendment rights? The only way a low income person can machine his or her own firearm is to buy a portion of a machines life and use it to do the work, in other words "rent" it. However, machinery depreciates, so every time you use it the less life it has left, so it's like buying a portion of the life rather than "renting". So, ATF, is it wrong for a financial troubled person to exercise their rights?

I can't believe that gov. agencies, taxpayer funded, can strip the rights of a whole class of people. You should be ashamed of yourselves!!! I got a solution for you. Since Eric Holder and the president are friends, partners-in-crime, get the president to subsidize mills and drill presses and provide one to every person that would be interested in one. If no, then let the average joe be an American and not some second class citizen!

if you cant afford a $100 drill press and $90 jig BUT you CAN afford a 500 upper and kit, something is wrong. they aren't "going after low income people"
you can find a drill press for $50 on craigslist only using it once? resell it when you are done.