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BigJ
10-21-2013, 6:54 PM
Dad lives in a free state. Son is stuck in California.

Dad is alive but getting on in years and has decided he'd rather pass along his collection now, while he can enjoy the giving and share the experience with his son.

Dad's collection consists of long guns and pistols, some C&R and some not. None are "assault weapons" as per California law, however several handguns are not on the California roster.

Here's the question: how does Dad transfer all of these firearms legally to Son, as swiftly as possible?

Here's my guess, after reading other threads and this (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Transferring_Firearms_Among_Some_Family_Members) several times:
1) Son gets a FFL03
2) Son gets a COE
3) Son finds a local (within California) FFL01 willing to receive all the long guns and on roster handguns at once.
4) Dad writes a letter listing the long guns and on roster handguns by serial, explaining they're all "gift"s.
5) Dad ships the letter and all the guns it lists to the FFL01 mentioned in #3
6) All guns arrive at the FFL01 safely
7) Son takes his FFL03+COE paperwork and spends an afternoon at the FFL01 from #3 processing all the paperwork needed for all the guns at once.
8) Son takes home the long guns that day
9) Son takes home the hand guns 10 days later

Does that work? Is there a better, legal, way?

Also, what to do with the non Roster handguns?

Thanks for your time.

thospb
10-21-2013, 8:00 PM
Better yet, Dad rents a U-haul and drives the entire collection to son in CA (minus any that are listed by name as AW). Hands over to son in person. Son submits Interfamilial Transfer to DOJ for for handguns. Everyone is happy. Long guns were transferred PPT years before law was passed.

Ed_Hazard
10-21-2013, 8:03 PM
Better yet, Dad rents a U-haul and drives the entire collection to son in CA (minus any that are listed by name as AW). Hands over to son in person. Son submits Interfamilial Transfer to DOJ for for handguns. Everyone is happy. Long guns were transferred PPT years before law was passed.

Bingo!

Check out the wiki for answer,

http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Transferring_Firearms_Among_Some_Family_Members

BigJ
10-21-2013, 8:10 PM
The first paragraph in the wiki makes it pretty clear Dad has to be a California resident. He isn't.

Kodemonkey
10-21-2013, 8:18 PM
The first paragraph in the wiki makes it pretty clear Dad has to be a California resident. He isn't.

Read farther down. The first part is for transfers inside the state:

Interstate Intrafamily transfers need FFL located in CA
INTERSTATE transfers are generally NOT FFL-free, because Federal law says so. So, out of state family members MAY transfer guns to family living in California, but almost always must use the services of a CA-licensed, in-California FFL -- the 'OPLAW' form does not work for INTERSTATE transfer.
Interstate intrafamilial transfer of handguns is legally subject to the 1-in-30-days rule, because it must run through DROS; there seems to be some confusion. See the Calguns discussion thread.
Briefly, PC 27535 lists the exemptions from 1 in 30, and an intrafamilial transfer is not on the list.
After you use a CA FFL to facilitate your interstate transfer, do NOT file the 'OPLAW' form as well; DROS accomplishes the state-level details. The 'OPLAW' form is not sufficient and not necessary.

BigJ
10-21-2013, 8:32 PM
I appreciate the feedback guys but I think we're missing the mark here. I'm trying to figure out how to do this quickly effectively and legally. The 1 in 30 rule kills that goal, hence the FFL03+COE idea (since an FFL03+COE holder is exempt from that restriction).

Also, I'm still trying to understand how to legally transfer the off roster guns; if an FFL01 is required for the transfer, it sounds like it can't be done, but maybe I'm missing an exemption somewhere?

Thanks again.

Epaphroditus
10-21-2013, 8:42 PM
Dad brings collection (the legal stuff) into state and establishes residence (in the sons house even). Does in state familial transfer then moves out of state. Does that count as infrequent? Costs $19 plus some paperwork. No 1 in 30 rule in such a case.

Maybe?

SonofWWIIDI
10-21-2013, 8:56 PM
As I read the different sections pertaining to this, if seems to me all you need is an HSC for the handguns. I copied and pasted the pertinent sections from the other thread to avoid the need to go back and forth.

The applicable Penal Code is 27545
Where neither party to the transaction holds a dealer's
license issued pursuant to Sections 26700 to 26915, inclusive, the
parties to the transaction shall complete the sale, loan, or transfer
of that firearm through a licensed firearms dealer pursuant to
Chapter 5 (commencing with Section 28050).

Penal Code 27870 (was 12078 (c) (1))
Section 27545 does not apply to the transfer of a firearm,
other than a handgun, by gift, bequest, intestate succession, or
other means from one individual to another, if both of the following
requirements are satisfied:
(a) The transfer is infrequent, as defined in Section 16730. (if you transfer all of the guns at once, I think that would be infrequent.)
(b) The transfer is between members of the same immediate family. (father to biological son.)

Penal Code 27875
Section 27545 does not apply to the transfer of a handgun by
gift, bequest, intestate succession, or other means from one
individual to another, if all of the following requirements are met:
(a) The transfer is infrequent, as defined in Section 16730.
(b) The transfer is between members of the same immediate family.
(c) Within 30 days of taking possession of the firearm, the person
to whom it is transferred shall forward by prepaid mail, or deliver
in person to the Department of Justice, a report that includes
information concerning the individual taking possession of the
firearm, how title was obtained and from whom, and a description of
the firearm in question. The report forms that individuals complete
pursuant to this section shall be provided to them by the Department
of Justice.
(d) The person taking title to the firearm shall first obtain a
handgun safety certificate.
(e) The person receiving the firearm is 18 years of age or older.

Penal Code 16720
As used in this part, "immediate family member" means either
of the following relationships:
(a) Parent and child.
(b) Grandparent and grandchild.
12078 was added to the Penal Code by AB 166, introduced in January of 1993, filed with Secretary of State October 1993, effective Jan 1, 1994.

Italics were comments added by me.

So, if your dad gives all the guns to you (biological son) in one transaction (infrequent), you are not prohibited, you are over 18, you have an HSC (for handguns), and you within 30 days you complete and submit the proper forms and fees (for handguns only, unless after 12/31/2013), then you do not need to go through an FFL. I could be wrong, but that's the way I read it.

Hopefully, librarian will step in and confirm.

Librarian
10-21-2013, 9:05 PM
Dad lives in a free state. Son is stuck in California.

Dad is alive but getting on in years and has decided he'd rather pass along his collection now, while he can enjoy the giving and share the experience with his son.

Dad's collection consists of long guns and pistols, some C&R and some not. None are "assault weapons" as per California law, however several handguns are not on the California roster.

Here's the question: how does Dad transfer all of these firearms legally to Son, as swiftly as possible?

Here's my guess, after reading other threads and this (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Transferring_Firearms_Among_Some_Family_Members) several times:
1) Son gets a FFL03
2) Son gets a COE
3) Son finds a local (within California) FFL01 willing to receive all the long guns and on roster handguns at once.
4) Dad writes a letter listing the long guns and on roster handguns by serial, explaining they're all "gift"s.
5) Dad ships the letter and all the guns it lists to the FFL01 mentioned in #3
6) All guns arrive at the FFL01 safely
7) Son takes his FFL03+COE paperwork and spends an afternoon at the FFL01 from #3 processing all the paperwork needed for all the guns at once.
8) Son takes home the long guns that day
9) Son takes home the hand guns 10 days later

Does that work? Is there a better, legal, way?

Also, what to do with the non Roster handguns?

Thanks for your time.

That sounds like it works; off-Roster interstate intrafamilial handgun gift (father --> son in this case) is legal, so add them to the list.

A little expensive, with shipping and the transfer fees per gun - perhaps the selected FFL could give you a deal.

Could Dad drive into CA and do the transfer at your local gun store? In-person gifts are better, I think.

I don't have a timeline on COEs; FFL03 is what, a couple months?

In the event that it all takes too long, well, inheritance does not need the FFL. It would be good to write up the gift list, add it as a codicil to his will now, and remove that part after the transfer is made (since the guns would no longer be part of the estate).

cr250chevy
10-21-2013, 9:27 PM
And this is why we need preemption at the federal level. A federally granted constitutional right should not vary from state to state. I just don't get it; the freedom to speech is the same across the nation, but another right can vary from state to state?

Librarian
10-21-2013, 9:42 PM
And this is why we need preemption at the federal level. A federally granted constitutional right should not vary from state to state. I just don't get it; the freedom to speech is the same across the nation, but another right can vary from state to state?

It is Federal law that makes this a mess - interstate transfer is governed by 18 USC 922.

See also http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=503873; while aimed at people leaving CA, that sticky covers the legal issues.

BigJ
10-22-2013, 4:54 AM
That sounds like it works; off-Roster interstate intrafamilial handgun gift (father --> son in this case) is legal, so add them to the list.

A little expensive, with shipping and the transfer fees per gun - perhaps the selected FFL could give you a deal.

Could Dad drive into CA and do the transfer at your local gun store? In-person gifts are better, I think.

I don't have a timeline on COEs; FFL03 is what, a couple months?

In the event that it all takes too long, well, inheritance does not need the FFL. It would be good to write up the gift list, add it as a codicil to his will now, and remove that part after the transfer is made (since the guns would no longer be part of the estate).

Thanks librarian. Very helpful.

JDay
10-22-2013, 6:47 PM
Better yet, Dad rents a U-haul and drives the entire collection to son in CA (minus any that are listed by name as AW). Hands over to son in person. Son submits Interfamilial Transfer to DOJ for for handguns. Everyone is happy. Long guns were transferred PPT years before law was passed.

The father would have to establish California residency for the transfer to be legal.

Johnny Lightning
10-24-2013, 2:53 PM
Dad loads up all the guns and takes them to son. Son says "thanks dad". Dad returns home. Son puts the guns away.

Librarian
10-24-2013, 5:56 PM
Dad loads up all the guns and takes them to son. Son says "thanks dad". Dad returns home. Son puts the guns away.

Dad is then guilty of multiple counts of Federal felonies. Dad goes to jail for 5 years for each count, and curses bad advice for the rest of his life.

This problem has been explained several times.

At Calguns, we do not advocate illegal acts.

BigJ
10-24-2013, 6:05 PM
^^Took the words right off my keyboard. Well said Lib.

ChrisBrooklyn
10-24-2013, 6:17 PM
It wouldn't be too hard to establish residence would it? Just change some bills to his name? Librarian am I missing something? Is there a minimum amount of time he has to stay? Or can it be like two weeks staying at his sons house?

Librarian
10-24-2013, 7:10 PM
It wouldn't be too hard to establish residence would it? Just change some bills to his name? Librarian am I missing something? Is there a minimum amount of time he has to stay? Or can it be like two weeks staying at his sons house?

Feds say (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Federal_residency_requirements) An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State
with the intention of making a home in that State.
That's not a 2-week visit.

There are a number of actions I personally would find persuasive that such an intent was present -
selling an out-of-state house, or terminating a lease and then
taking a new job in the new state
buying a house or leasing an apartment or condo
changing driver license
registering to vote
enrolling children in schools
... that is, those things that any of have done when actually moving to a new state.

Things change - suppose you get here, do all of that, and your job disappears? Moving back might happen in a month, with associated anguish and cost.

What do feds use to make a determination? I don't know.

MA5177
10-26-2013, 5:25 AM
Im prety sure you could find a good FFL, have your dad ship the guns to him and do the intrafamily transfer paperwork. Yes it may cost some ,but you are getting free guns

Dragunov
11-08-2013, 2:48 PM
Just go to your dads house, get the guns and drive them home. This is what I did. You're a resident of the PRK, but the PRK doesn't own you. Transfer was out of state. If the PRK has anything to say about it, then maybe they "own" you. In that case, if you're "owned" it's time to make a DRASTIC change in the way y'all are going about how you're trying to change things, or MOVE.

Librarian
11-08-2013, 3:30 PM
Just go to your dads house, get the guns and drive them home. This is what I did. You're a resident of the PRK, but the PRK doesn't own you. Transfer was out of state. If the PRK has anything to say about it, then maybe they "own" you. In that case, if you're "owned" it's time to make a DRASTIC change in the way y'all are going about how you're trying to change things, or MOVE.

Can't do that, unless dad passes on and the guns are left to the person in a will.

This is not a CA problem - it's a Federal Law problem, as has been pointed out several times in this thread.

To repeat my earlier post Dad is then guilty of multiple counts of Federal felonies. Dad goes to jail for 5 years for each count, and curses bad advice for the rest of his life.

This problem has been explained several times.

At Calguns, we do not advocate illegal acts.

BigJ
11-08-2013, 3:32 PM
Lib, I'm ok if you want to close this down. Your post (and quote) answers the question.