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View Full Version : simple mag rules - maybe a sticky?


M1NM
10-13-2013, 9:43 PM
Please don't leave I think answers only TRUE FACTUAL answers have any value. All the questions should only require a yes no answer

1 Are my Glock 19 15 round mags still ok or do I need to block them to 10?

Are my 10/20 and 10/30 perminant blocked epoxyed and pinned still legal?

I have 4 30 round AR mags that I've had since the late 80s are they still ok to use in a featureless with no bullet button? These were not kits and have never been apart 3 are still in the wrapping.

Thanks

Librarian
10-13-2013, 10:55 PM
Please don't leave I think answers only TRUE FACTUAL answers have any value. All the questions should only require a yes no answer

1 Are my Glock 19 15 round mags still ok or do I need to block them to 10?

2 Are my 10/20 and 10/30 perminant blocked epoxyed and pinned still legal?

3 I have 4 30 round AR mags that I've had since the late 80s are they still ok to use in a featureless with no bullet button? These were not kits and have never been apart 3 are still in the wrapping.

Thanks

1 - if you own them legally, you may keep and use them

2 - yes, as legal in 2014 as they are now

3 - since these appear to be pre-2000, thus legally owned, yes - use them as you say.

Brandon04GT
10-13-2013, 11:01 PM
Starting 2014, if you take a legally owned rebuild kit to use out-of-state then disassemble it and bring it back, will this be considered illegal importation?

Germz
10-13-2013, 11:12 PM
rebuild kits aren't banned. conversion kits are will be.

Rudolph
10-14-2013, 6:10 AM
Maybe someone can clarify the answer ti OP? If I legally posess a 30rd AR mag and decide to use it, once I insert it into my rifle doesn't that convert it to an AR and thus require registration? From the CalGus flow chart, it looks like that would be the case regardless of whether or not it has a BB. So even if I owned a 1980's mag, I couldn't use it without registering an AW?

Merc1138
10-14-2013, 9:16 AM
Maybe someone can clarify the answer ti OP? If I legally posess a 30rd AR mag and decide to use it, once I insert it into my rifle doesn't that convert it to an AR and thus require registration? From the CalGus flow chart, it looks like that would be the case regardless of whether or not it has a BB. So even if I owned a 1980's mag, I couldn't use it without registering an AW?

Librarian provided a completely clear answer. There are legal uses for a 30 round magazine in an AR(I have no idea what you're talking about when you say "convert it to an AR", it's either an AR15 or it isn't).

You cannot use a 30 round magazine in a rifle with a fixed magazine unless it's a registered assault weapon(RAW), this has nothing to do with being an AR.

You can use a 30 round magazine in a rifle that is featureless, without it being a RAW. Look at the list of assault weapon features, remove them from the rifle, use a 30 round detachable magazine.

Rudolph
10-14-2013, 9:41 AM
Sorry, typo, meant convert to AW, not AR. It was the featureless Part on Q3 I wanted to be sure I understood correctly as it applied to no BB. Thanks.

Brandon04GT
10-14-2013, 4:44 PM
Okay, so what's the difference between a conversion kit and a rebuild kit?

Librarian
10-14-2013, 4:53 PM
Okay, so what's the difference between a conversion kit and a rebuild kit?

Nobody knows.

MajorSideburns
10-16-2013, 8:39 AM
1. Did you possess your Glock 19 15 round mags prior to Jan 1, 2000? Your AR-15 mags? If yes, then yes they are legal.



Please don't leave I think answers only TRUE FACTUAL answers have any value. All the questions should only require a yes no answer

1 Are my Glock 19 15 round mags still ok or do I need to block them to 10?

Are my 10/20 and 10/30 perminant blocked epoxyed and pinned still legal?

I have 4 30 round AR mags that I've had since the late 80s are they still ok to use in a featureless with no bullet button? These were not kits and have never been apart 3 are still in the wrapping.

Thanks

MaHoTex
10-16-2013, 11:52 AM
rebuild kits aren't banned. conversion kits are will be.

Whether we want to admit it or not, we all know the intent of AB48. Pretending that "conversion kit" means anything other than a Hi Cap disassembled magazine is not being honest with ones self. We all know the intent behind AB48 is to stop the importation of magazine kits that are (IMO the vast majority) ultimately being built into 10+ magazines.

missiondude
10-16-2013, 12:10 PM
Whether we want to admit it or not, we all know the intent of AB48. Pretending that "conversion kit" means anything other than a Hi Cap disassembled magazine is not being honest with ones self. We all know the intent behind AB48 is to stop the importation of magazine kits that are (IMO the vast majority) ultimately being built into 10+ magazines.

We all know what the intent of the AW ban was also. Good thing words have meaning, or there would not be any featureless and bullet buttoned AR's...

ChrisC
10-16-2013, 1:06 PM
Okay, so what's the difference between a conversion kit and a rebuild kit?

How they are spelled:p

stix213
10-16-2013, 1:20 PM
Maybe someone can clarify the answer ti OP? If I legally posess a 30rd AR mag and decide to use it, once I insert it into my rifle doesn't that convert it to an AR and thus require registration? From the CalGus flow chart, it looks like that would be the case regardless of whether or not it has a BB. So even if I owned a 1980's mag, I couldn't use it without registering an AW?

Librarian provided a completely clear answer. There are legal uses for a 30 round magazine in an AR(I have no idea what you're talking about when you say "convert it to an AR", it's either an AR15 or it isn't).

You cannot use a 30 round magazine in a rifle with a fixed magazine unless it's a registered assault weapon(RAW), this has nothing to do with being an AR.

You can use a 30 round magazine in a rifle that is featureless, without it being a RAW. Look at the list of assault weapon features, remove them from the rifle, use a 30 round detachable magazine.

To be extra clear, Rudolph you may or may not be aware that there are two legal configurations for centerfire semi-auto rifles.

There are fixed magazine rifles (bullet button), where you can have virtually any "evil feature" on the rifle as long as you still meet things like overall length requirement, etc. This is the configuration most typical, and virtually the only one an AR/AK or similar rifle is sold as in stores. These rifles are restricted by law to 10 or less round mag capacity, regardless if you legally own pre-ban 30's.

Then there is a configuration called "featureless" where you don't have any evil features on your rifle, such as a pistol grip. See the AW flow chart for the complete list. It is very important on a featureless rifle you wish to use 11+ round mags with that you DO NOT have a bullet button installed. Ironically, using 11+ round mags in a featureless rifle that has a device like a bullet button to slow down mag changes makes it an AW. Yes it doesn't make sense why the anti-gunners would require faster mag changes on a featureless rifle, and would charge you with a possible felony if you slowed them down with a magazine locking device, but that is what they did. (and clear evidence they have no clue what they put in their bills)

Here's an example of an AR and an AK in featureless configuration. Apologies if you already knew all this.

http://imageshack.us/a/img856/8060/img1097yc.jpg

Darryl Licht
10-17-2013, 2:56 AM
Starting 2014, if you take a legally owned rebuild kit to use out-of-state then disassemble it and bring it back, will this be considered illegal importation?

I believe the old law of: if you owned prior to 2000, and you don't increase the # of currently legally owned magazines, (If you owned 3 legal hi cap mags, you may never have more than 3 hi cap mags assembled in Kali) then rebuild kits are still a go.

If your mag kit fits the # of currently legally owned mags, you export as a kit, and import back as a kit, you are currently fine as I understand this law.

The key here is how the courts might interpret "conversion kits" and also how some current rebuild kit sellers to Kali may not want to risk any legal issues after the law goes into effect. All I can say is get them while you still can!

9M62
10-17-2013, 3:51 AM
rebuild kits aren't banned. conversion kits are will be.

I respectfully disagree.


(b) For purposes of this section, a “large capacity magazine conversion kit” is a device or combination of parts of a fully functioning large-capacity magazine, including, but not limited to, the body, spring, follower, and floor plate or end plate, capable of converting an ammunition feeding device into a large-capacity magazine.

That means they have defined a "conversion kit" as the parts themselves. It does not matter if your intent is to repair parts you already own -- because a magazine body of a 30 round length COULD be used to create a "large capacity magazine," it then falls into the guidelines of "a device or combination of parts including..." and thus, is illegal. It doesn't matter that they used the term "conversion kit," because in their description OF a "conversion kit," they defined it as the parts themselves. Don't get hung up on the wording "conversion kit" and think that the kit actually has to "convert" something to meet the law and thus be illegal - it doesn't. They defined what makes a "conversion kit" a "conversion kit." How did they define it? Very simply, the parts themselves. Basically they've removed intent -- they simply are saying that because the parts COULD be used to build a high capacity magazine, it's considered a "conversion kit" and is thus, illegal.

Could you buy a replacement floor plate? A follower? I'd imagine so, yes, as that's not necessarily allowing you to create a larger magazine. A spring the size of a 30 round magazine's spring? Not likely, as again, that is a "device or combination of parts" that are used in a fully functioning LARGE-CAPACITY magazine.

So, yes, I agree you can buy some parts of your lawfully owned magazines -- but none that could be used to build a high capacity magazine.

Mitch
10-17-2013, 7:47 AM
Michel & Associates' explanation is here (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=838667).

JDay
10-22-2013, 8:15 PM
Whether we want to admit it or not, we all know the intent of AB48. Pretending that "conversion kit" means anything other than a Hi Cap disassembled magazine is not being honest with ones self. We all know the intent behind AB48 is to stop the importation of magazine kits that are (IMO the vast majority) ultimately being built into 10+ magazines.

You can argue intent all you want, in the end all that really matters is how the law is written.

moregore82
11-01-2013, 8:58 PM
Will the law change how we can currently get "rebuild kits" such as a PMAG 30 round and can block or restrict them down to 10? Will these kits no longer be available to purchase in Cali? If so what about ones we already have? What is going to change with these? And what constitutes or defines the blocking devise to be permanent? I have herd anything that takes a tool to disassemble it? Sounds broad. Thanks

CSACANNONEER
11-01-2013, 9:08 PM
Okay, so what's the difference between a conversion kit and a rebuild kit?

One is a good descriptive name for a group of products and the other is what law makers (who don't know any better and don't spend as much time on CGN as we think they do) call them.

Librarian
11-01-2013, 9:09 PM
It's easier if you break out your questions ...
1) Will the law change how we can currently get "rebuild kits" such as a PMAG 30 round and can block or restrict them down to 10?

2) Will these kits no longer be available to purchase in Cali?

3) If so what about ones we already have? What is going to change with these?

4) And what constitutes or defines the blocking devise to be permanent? I have herd anything that takes a tool to disassemble it?

Sounds broad. Thanks

1) it does change it - after 1 Jan 2014, cannot get more (apparently*)

2) apparently* so

3) no change

4) there are arguments about this - we do not know for sure what a court might accept. Whole thread on it in the 2A forum.

Lots of AB 48 threads in the 2A forum. I recommend you read them, but advise you will not come away with much more information.

* "apparently" because we cannot yet distinguish a 'conversion kit', which is illegal in 2014, from a 'repair' kit, which is not addressed.

SC_SD
11-02-2013, 11:14 AM
I'm still waiting on a definitive answer on whether a lawfully owned repair kit (already existing in state prior to 1/1/14) can be removed from state to assemble and use in a free state, then brought back disassembled to CA post 1/1/14.

Unlike the suppositions of some, that and making your own 10/20/30s is the primary use of such kits (especially pmags developed post 2000).

Is this importation post 1/1/14? Net net, there would be no new kit in CA that wasn't already there. How would you prove this? How would they prove otherwise? By the mere fact you are coming in with a rebuild kit being prima facie evidence of importation?

Is this law subordinate to existing mag law that states you can bring back LCM that already lawfully owned? Or a separate concern unto itself? Because at face value, walking in with a legally owned, legally assembled LCM today, if detected, would still have the same issue.

I have read all of the 2A threads on this issue, but they just argue over what is a "conversion" kit. Hopefully these questions are different enough to not be redundant.

Librarian
11-02-2013, 11:50 AM
I'm still waiting on a definitive answer on whether a lawfully owned repair kit (already existing in state prior to 1/1/14) can be removed from state to assemble and use in a free state, then brought back disassembled to CA post 1/1/14.

Unlike the suppositions of some, that and making your own 10/20/30s is the primary use of such kits (especially pmags developed post 2000).

Is this importation post 1/1/14? Net net, there would be no new kit in CA that wasn't already there. How would you prove this? How would they prove otherwise? By the mere fact you are coming in with a rebuild kit being prima facie evidence of importation?

Is this law subordinate to existing mag law that states you can bring back LCM that already lawfully owned? Or a separate concern unto itself? Because at face value, walking in with a legally owned, legally assembled LCM today, if detected, would still have the same issue.

I have read all of the 2A threads on this issue, but they just argue over what is a "conversion" kit. Hopefully these questions are different enough to not be redundant.

Interesting and valid questions.

I think we will have to wait for a court case to find out.

moregore82
11-02-2013, 3:24 PM
Great answers guys. Still as we all know, too grey. Period! Nothing really definitive.

StuckInTheP.R.O.Ca
11-08-2013, 9:33 PM
Does anyone think that places like Riflegear will still be selling 10/30 mags after 1/14?

sfm12
12-06-2013, 8:06 PM
Why do I see that the AK pistols that are being built by members have "bullet buttons" when any "regular" handgun like a 1911 or Glock does not need one? Is it because the magazine is not inside the grip handle?

Librarian
12-06-2013, 8:15 PM
Why do I see that the AK pistols that are being built by members have "bullet buttons" when any "regular" handgun like a 1911 or Glock does not need one? Is it because the magazine is not inside the grip handle?

Yes. http://www.calguns.net/caawid/hgflowchart.pdf

sfm12
12-06-2013, 8:20 PM
Thank you very much!

Selena812
12-09-2013, 1:40 AM
Thanks for sharing.

18Dmedic
12-09-2013, 8:48 AM
Why can't the manufacturer or store remove the follower and sell it separately? Keep the rest as is and sell it as a spare parts or repair kit...

Michael Ehline
12-09-2013, 8:51 AM
We all know what the intent of the AW ban was also. Good thing words have meaning, or there would not be any featureless and bullet buttoned AR's...

^^^^ The commie liberals who wrote the law don't even know what it means. It's just a "thingy" to them.

Michael Ehline
12-09-2013, 8:52 AM
Why can't the manufacturer or store remove the follower and sell it separately? Keep the rest as is and sell it as a spare parts or repair kit...

^^^^ Just don't ask me to represent you pro bono ... hoooah?:p