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View Full Version : Does the lead hunting ammo issue affect which hunting rifle you use?


plumbum
10-11-2013, 6:38 PM
And here I was going to go get myself a 7mm-08 rifle for Christmas, but that ammo is scarce enough, let alone in Condor-friendly flavor. Sure reloading is an option, but who knows how well handloaded ammo is verified to be lead free. About the only common lead free ammo I see on shelves is .270 and .223, neither of which really turns my crank.

I think it might be best if Santa brings me a box full of RCBS this year.

frankm
10-11-2013, 6:39 PM
Just hunt in the next state over. We're all close to other states.

plumbum
10-11-2013, 6:53 PM
Just hunt in the next state over. We're all close to other states.

Very true, but that is severely going to limit my opportunities - more so than my complete predatory ineptness.

This goes beyond deer rifles; All migratory birds, all small game animals, all large game animals, all shotshells, all handguns, and don't even think about traditional muzzleloaders.

Cypriss32
10-11-2013, 9:15 PM
Lol really?

Midwayusa.com


Reload and shoot 120gr tsx bullets.

ExtremeX
10-11-2013, 9:19 PM
Only thing I can see causing issues is twist rate... I bought some lead free bullets for reloading today for my .243 because of this bill.

I noticed for the given bullet weight, bullets are substantially longer than their lead filled counterpart.

I’ll know after I load some up and test…

thospb
10-11-2013, 9:24 PM
I want to know how a Warden will know if handloads have lead? Do they cut them open in the field? Or confiscate and test elsewhere and mail a citation if they find lead? And a check for the ammo they destroy? I will not buy another hunting license in this state.

savannah
10-11-2013, 9:28 PM
I just bought a compound bow tonight. I think I will need some new skills if I continue to live in this crazy state.

ExtremeX
10-11-2013, 9:29 PM
I want to know how a Warden will know if handloads have lead? Do they cut them open in the field? Or confiscate and test elsewhere and mail a citation if they find lead? And a check for the ammo they destroy? I will not buy another hunting license in this state.

Ya they are not going to get rid of me that easy lolÖ thatís what the antis want you to do, stop shooting.

I have no idea how they check, but Iím just going to carry the label of the bullets I used or print out the product info from the website. Pretty hard to mistake the bullets I am using for something else which is common. (Or just bring the box with you if you are shooting factory ammo)

ScottB
10-11-2013, 9:30 PM
Of course it does. I can work up expensive and generally inferior loads my rifles, but my older shotguns are essentially obsolete for hunting given the cost of non-steel non-lead shot.

thospb: Yes, a warden can confiscate a round (or more?) for testing if they suspect lead. I imaging they could cut a jacketed bullet in the case without too much trouble, but I think they can take it back to their office and issue a citation later. Steel shot is easy - they just use a magnet.

Reelemup
10-11-2013, 9:31 PM
Just hunt in the next state over. We're all close to other states.

Like anyone seen a condor north of Monterey ?

Reelemup
10-11-2013, 9:33 PM
Only thing I can see causing issues is twist rate... I bought some lead free bullets for reloading today for my .243 because of this bill.

I noticed for the given bullet weight, bullets are substantially longer than their lead filled counterpart.

I’ll know after I load some up and test…

Drill a hole in them and fill with a tungsten slug ......perhaps that would be armor piercing .

Reelemup
10-11-2013, 9:37 PM
I want to know how a Warden will know if handloads have lead? Do they cut them open in the field? Or confiscate and test elsewhere and mail a citation if they find lead? And a check for the ammo they destroy? I will not buy another hunting license in this state.

They will have to buy thousands of bullet cutters and hire inspecting officers....so more free loaders on tax money

Guapoh
10-11-2013, 10:18 PM
Nope. Barnes TSX are some of my preferred 7mm Rem Mag loads.

bloodhawke83
10-11-2013, 10:19 PM
This doesn't become law until 2019?

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 4

zio707
10-11-2013, 10:37 PM
And here I was going to go get myself a 7mm-08 rifle for Christmas, but that ammo is scarce enough, let alone in Condor-friendly flavor. Sure reloading is an option, but who knows how well handloaded ammo is verified to be lead free. About the only common lead free ammo I see on shelves is .270 and .223, neither of which really turns my crank.

I think it might be best if Santa brings me a box full of RCBS this year.

I believe the bill to block internet sales of ammo was vetoed so that option is open.

zio707
10-11-2013, 10:42 PM
This doesn't become law until 2019?

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 4

Not exactly, if I'm reading it correctly the end date is 7/1/2019 but they can implement it sooner.


http://nramemberscouncils.com/legs.shtml?year=2013&summary=ab711

The bill would require the commission to promulgate regulations by July 1, 2015, that phase in the requirements of these provisions. The bill would require that these requirements be fully implemented statewide by no later than July 1, 2019. The bill would require the commission to implement any of these requirements that can be implemented practicably, in whole or in part, in advance of July 1, 2019. The bill would also require that the commission not reduce or eliminate any existing regulatory restrictions on the use of lead ammunition in California condor range, as described, unless or until the additional requirements for use of nonlead ammunition as required by these provisions are implemented.

DennisCA
10-11-2013, 10:51 PM
I just bought a compound bow tonight. I think I will need some new skills if I continue to live in this crazy state.

Ah you think your safe from the anti's?
You foolish person, they're going after bow-hunters soon!
The anti's will say bow hunting is cruel or something like that.

I agree, hunt in another state:oji:

thospb
10-11-2013, 10:59 PM
CA Dept of Fish & Wildlife depends on license sales to operate. I will still kill things, just not in CA. The Anti's want to stop hunting in CA? Fine, but they will pay for their conservation programs some other way. If everyone boycotts hunting in CA there will be greater issues for the Govt than identifying what type of ammo I have. If there is no license money for conservation there is no Wolf Programs, Condor Programs, Salmon Hatcheries. The deer will overpopulate and die of starvation in 10 years.

ExtremeX
10-11-2013, 11:16 PM
CA Dept of Fish & Wildlife depends on license sales to operate. I will still kill things, just not in CA. The Anti's want to stop hunting in CA? Fine, but they will pay for their conservation programs some other way. If everyone boycotts hunting in CA there will be greater issues for the Govt than identifying what type of ammo I have. If there is no license money for conservation there is no Wolf Programs, Condor Programs, Salmon Hatcheries. The deer will overpopulate and die of starvation in 10 years.

I didnít think of it like thatÖ interesting argument it points are true and accurate.

Hank Dodge
10-11-2013, 11:20 PM
CA Dept of Fish & Wildlife depends on license sales to operate. I will still kill things, just not in CA. The Anti's want to stop hunting in CA? Fine, but they will pay for their conservation programs some other way. If everyone boycotts hunting in CA there will be greater issues for the Govt than identifying what type of ammo I have. If there is no license money for conservation there is no Wolf Programs, Condor Programs, Salmon Hatcheries. The deer will overpopulate and die of starvation in 10 years.

^^^THIS^^^

That really is the fact of the matter. I know that there will still be hunters in this state, just look at how everyone is trying to deal with the existing condor area regulation. But, realistically there will be many more that just throw up their hands and say "enough is enough". I'm a cast bullet hunter who would have to change my ways if I did decide to continue hunting here.....we'll see where that goes.

toby
10-12-2013, 6:20 AM
Not at all, they will continue to use lead.

edgerly779
10-12-2013, 6:30 AM
Only my older high end shotguns.

Noonanda
10-12-2013, 7:17 AM
Only thing I can see causing issues is twist rate... I bought some lead free bullets for reloading today for my .243 because of this bill.

I noticed for the given bullet weight, bullets are substantially longer than their lead filled counterpart.

Iíll know after I load some up and testÖ

What did you get, the Nosler E-Tips or something else? Ive got some of their E-tips for use in my .243 Win and they do shoot good, you just cant push em quite as fast as a regular jacketed bullet. I worked up/ Chronographed data for both their 55Gr and 90 Gr ETips using Varget if you are interested.

glock7
10-12-2013, 7:37 AM
I just bought a compound bow tonight. I think I will need some new skills if I continue to live in this crazy state.

indeed...just make sure the arrow is environmentally friendly and doesn't actually harm the animal....

wjc
10-12-2013, 5:16 PM
I hunt big game with a Winchester Model 70 and already use lead free ammo because of the "should be extinct bird" zone.

Turkey hunting is going to be a problem...not sue if my shotgun can handle lead free shot.

Wrangler John
10-12-2013, 5:40 PM
I want to know how a Warden will know if handloads have lead? Do they cut them open in the field? Or confiscate and test elsewhere and mail a citation if they find lead? And a check for the ammo they destroy? I will not buy another hunting license in this state.

The Warden will take a sample of your ammo and send it to the laboratory for analysis. If the result is that it contains lead, they will file a civil citation against you, keeping the ammo for evidence. I have been varmint hunting in the condor zone on public land since the ban went into effect, and have not seen a single Warden.

Rodell
10-12-2013, 5:44 PM
I don't agree with this ban. If it applied to my prairie dig hunts I couldn't afford to do it. For big game, I've had outstanding results with Barnes bullets.

I also think this is a killer for shotgun ammo and non-steel rated shotguns.

I hope there's an appeal based on the "common use".

therealnickb
10-12-2013, 5:53 PM
indeed...just make sure the arrow is environmentally friendly and doesn't actually harm the animal....

I'm working up a "q-tip" arrow....

therealnickb
10-12-2013, 5:58 PM
CA Dept of Fish & Wildlife depends on license sales to operate. I will still kill things, just not in CA. The Anti's want to stop hunting in CA? Fine, but they will pay for their conservation programs some other way. If everyone boycotts hunting in CA there will be greater issues for the Govt than identifying what type of ammo I have. If there is no license money for conservation there is no Wolf Programs, Condor Programs, Salmon Hatcheries. The deer will overpopulate and die of starvation in 10 years.

Government programs don't go away very often. Fees go up and areas are closed.

The mountain lions, coyotes and eventually man introduced non-indigenous critters like wolves will take care if the "problems" with overpopulation.

Just like Darwin intended right?

Wrangler John
10-12-2013, 6:02 PM
Only thing I can see causing issues is twist rate... I bought some lead free bullets for reloading today for my .243 because of this bill.

I noticed for the given bullet weight, bullets are substantially longer than their lead filled counterpart.

I’ll know after I load some up and test…

There is a quicker way to determine if the twist rate of your rifle will stabilize a given bullet. Go here and plug in the numbers, you'll need a dial caliper to measure the length of the bullet, or check the manufacturer's site as some have a recommended minimum twist rate.

http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmstab-5.1.cgi

Another site if that one isn't working:

http://www.bergerbullets.com/litz/TwistRuleAltWP.php

Barnes Bullets web site offers all pertinent data on their bullets. I use the .257" TTSX 80 grain bullet and it is quite stable in my 1:10" Schneider barrel. If you peruse the list of TTSX bullets, those with no minimum twist requirements will stabilize in the majority of factory twists. Barnes lists the weight and length data, so you can plug those dimensions into either twist calculator and check it against your measured barrel twist.

http://www.barnesbullets.com/products/components/rifle/tipped-tsx-bullet/

Barnes Varmint Grenades in the heavier weights, especially the 6mm 62 grain V.G. didn't stabilize properly until I used a 1:8" twist, but I'm picky.

Also Barnes, Hornady, Nosler, Federal and Black Hills (IIRC) load lead free bullets in factory ammo.

P.S.: Barnes bullets, and indeed most of the lead free types, need to be seated in from the lands. When I worked up loads for the .257" TTSX 80 grain bullet in a .257 Roberts Ackley, it shot so-so until I seated it exactly .050" off the lands. Same with the Varmint Grenades, they need a minimum of .020" jump, but just seating them to the standard COAL in the manuals seems to work best, e.g.: 2.260" for the .204 Ruger and .223 Remington; 2.350" for the .22-250; etc. From the FAQ section on the Barnes site:

Do I seat TSX bullets .030 inch to .070 inch from the lands, starting at .050 inch off the lands, as recommended with other X-style bullets?
Yes. All-copper TSX Bullets typically give better accuracy when seated off the lands and grooves (the rifling in the barrel).

Fjold
10-12-2013, 6:22 PM
No, most of my serious hunting guns already have lead free loads worked up for.

What I hate is that the varmint grenades, et. al. are just not as explosive as the Hornady VMax and Varmint bullets. They just don't have the chunky, red rain effect.

Wrangler John
10-12-2013, 6:40 PM
I don't agree with this ban. If it applied to my prairie dig hunts I couldn't afford to do it. For big game, I've had outstanding results with Barnes bullets.

I also think this is a killer for shotgun ammo and non-steel rated shotguns.

I hope there's an appeal based on the "common use".

I have been using copper powdered metal core bullets for all my varmint hunting, even in Oregon where there is no such ban. I use three brands of lead free varmint bullets: Barnes Varmint Grenade in .204, .224 and 6mm; Hornady's .204 24 grain NTX which has been recently suspended but still in stock - phenomenal accuracy in an AR with a Hart 1:9" barrel; Nosler's .204 32 grain BT lead free; .224 40 grain BT Lead Free and their 6mm 55 grain BT Lead Free.

These bullets run $42.00 per 250 (.204 Barnes); $19.19 per 100 (.204 Hornady); $22.09 per 100 (.204 Nosler BT LF); $52.00 per 250 (Barnes .224 VG); $57.00 per 250 (6mm Barnes VG); etc. at online retailers which is about the same as the lead core bullets. The difference is that the L.F. bullets can be driven as fast as practical with superb accuracy and spectacular effect. Have at 'em.

bombadillo
10-12-2013, 6:59 PM
Can't we just shoot all the stupid condors and be done with those dumb birds. They're obviously not fit to survive on this planet to begin with. Lets just put out some bowls of antifreeze and call it a day! :hide:

thomashoward
10-12-2013, 7:05 PM
Can't we just shoot all the stupid condors and be done with those dumb birds. They're obviously not fit to survive on this planet to begin with. Lets just put out some bowls of antifreeze and call it a day! :hide:

I'm guessing you want anti freeze outlawed.:facepalm:

TMB 1
10-12-2013, 7:09 PM
I don't agree with this ban. If it applied to my prairie dig hunts I couldn't afford to do it. For big game, I've had outstanding results with Barnes bullets.

I also think this is a killer for shotgun ammo and non-steel rated shotguns.

I hope there's an appeal based on the "common use".

Yep a killer for some shotgun's and the old Hawken. What about rim fire's? I never seen lead free rim fire ammo, does anybody even make it?

ElvenSoul
10-12-2013, 7:09 PM
Barnes sells a .311 I'm thinking of using my .303

bombadillo
10-12-2013, 8:13 PM
I'm guessing you want anti freeze outlawed.:facepalm:

Heck yes. You should switch to 100% water wetter and call it a day! :eek:

LynnJr
10-13-2013, 10:20 AM
The law is bogus because the California Condor is already extinct.

The condors in the condor area are now more than 30% Andean Condors.

When it first started out to be considered a Cailfornia condor you had to be 90% California condor.Today they have upped the amount of non-native condor to around 40% so the birds you see flying around are so diluted down with Andean condor genes and are no longer a true california condor.

They released Andean females as a test and never fully recovered them according to those doing the actual work.The story gets suppressed by the media and tree huggers so they can collect money from well intended idiots.
http://articles.latimes.com/1986-11-07/local/me-15671_1_california-condor

Wrangler John
10-13-2013, 1:54 PM
Yep a killer for some shotgun's and the old Hawken. What about rim fire's? I never seen lead free rim fire ammo, does anybody even make it?

CCI Loads the .17HMR TNT Green ammo; http://www.cci-ammunition.com/products/detail.aspx?use=1&loadNo=0951

CCi .22 Win Magnum TNT Green; http://www.cci-ammunition.com/products/detail.aspx?use=1&loadNo=0060

Winchester offers these, I picked up 500 awhile ago in different Super X packaging: http://www.brownells.com/ammunition/rimfire-ammo/winchester-varmint-lf-22-lr-26gr-tin-rn-sku105202939-43506-92917.aspx Here's a blurb about the .22 LR, .223 Winchester, and other Lead Free offerings. Apparently Winchester is using a tin core instead of compressed copper powder in their .223 Remington bullets.

Like everything else they're back ordered.

There is probably more out there, I just haven't the time for research.

Now that California has extended the lead free zone, the increase in economy of scale may lead to more offerings and better availability.

Also check Barnes site they have four all copper muzzleloader bullets with sabots.

Wrangler John
10-13-2013, 2:26 PM
No, most of my serious hunting guns already have lead free loads worked up for.

What I hate is that the varmint grenades, et. al. are just not as explosive as the Hornady VMax and Varmint bullets. They just don't have the chunky, red rain effect.

What!? What are you shooting them out of? Here's one that was hit with a .224 50 grain Varmint Grenade out of a .22-250 at bout 125 yards. Please note the bottom half disappeared into a shock wave of biological paint. One paw must have been flipping me off, because it landed away from the rest.

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj241/Wrangler-John/Splat1.jpg (http://s274.photobucket.com/user/Wrangler-John/media/Splat1.jpg.html)

Then I missed this one low, but the Varmint Grenade blew up underneath the rat and flipped it up about five or six feet. He had a hollow feeling afterward.

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj241/Wrangler-John/Splat4.jpg (http://s274.photobucket.com/user/Wrangler-John/media/Splat4.jpg.html)

This is all that's left of a ground squirrel (the arrow points to an ear for reference) the rest red misted and was not found.

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj241/Wrangler-John/Splat3.jpg (http://s274.photobucket.com/user/Wrangler-John/media/Splat3.jpg.html)

Here's one hit by a Barnes .257 80 grain TTSX at about 3,580 fps. It ain't a Varmint Grenade but it works like a blender.

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj241/Wrangler-John/Squirrel1.jpg (http://s274.photobucket.com/user/Wrangler-John/media/Squirrel1.jpg.html)

I would have shown some hits from the 6mm Varmint Grenade shot from my .243 WSSM at Oregon sage rats that were feeding on wet alfalfa, but there was noting left to photograph except for some rototilled soil and a few pink tissue spots. They popped like a water balloon.

Granted the .224 Nosler BT Lead Free in the .223 Remington doesn't spray paint them at 250 yards, but it does the job.

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj241/Wrangler-John/IMG_0015.jpg (http://s274.photobucket.com/user/Wrangler-John/media/IMG_0015.jpg.html)

Now I have the urge to go forth and annihilate some bucktoothed vermin at long range.

Don Edmondson
10-14-2013, 7:56 AM
When I hunted there I carried the box top off the nosler lead free bullit box the warden liked it Don

smittty
10-14-2013, 9:47 PM
Like anyone seen a condor north of Monterey ?

I've been on countless hikes and trips into the backcountry and have never seen a condor. I think they are all dead from the real reason for their demise...pesticides and fertilizers provided by government subsidies so the farmers can produce poisonous crops in larger quantifies so more people can get cancer and die at an earlier age to reduce the social security payout. Oops, did I just say that out load!

Justintoxicated
10-15-2013, 9:24 AM
I've been on countless hikes and trips into the backcountry and have never seen a condor. I think they are all dead from the real reason for their demise...pesticides and fertilizers provided by government subsidies so the farmers can produce poisonous crops in larger quantifies so more people can get cancer and die at an earlier age to reduce the social security payout. Oops, did I just say that out load!

You probably correct there.... This state is so SAD and stupid. I don't hunt but was thinking about it. Guess I won't even bother now.

Whiterabbit
10-15-2013, 9:32 AM
Does the lead hunting ammo issue affect which hunting rifle you use?

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=77760&d=1375248964

YES.

I am furious about AB711. To heck with your 7-08. Barnes bullets are great and easy to load. I love my barnes bullets in my 7x57, your 7-08 would be th same. But now I shall not be allowed to hunt with round balls as per our American Heritage? That is complete baloney. These laws are forcing everyone to go to whizzbang magnums and making it even harder to get close to game than it already is. The rest of he nation passed Hunting Heritage laws, and Californians get screwed. AB711 makes me foam at the mouth.

Whiterabbit
10-15-2013, 9:36 AM
Do I seat TSX bullets .030 inch to .070 inch from the lands, starting at .050 inch off the lands, as recommended with other X-style bullets?
Yes. All-copper TSX Bullets typically give better accuracy when seated off the lands and grooves (the rifling in the barrel).

Not in my rifle. Anyone reading stuff like this by all means try it, but don't limit yourself from trying well off the lands. .05 off is the WORST accuracy in my 7x57. seated INTO the lands is second best, and a mile and a half off the lands (seriously, way way away) is by far the best.

Sometimes internal ballistics trumps rifle geometry. I guess.... I don't have to fully understand it to appreciate the performance.

stonefly-2
10-15-2013, 9:54 AM
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=77760&d=1375248964

YES.

I am furious about AB711. To heck with your 7-08. Barnes bullets are great and easy to load. I love my barnes bullets in my 7x57, your 7-08 would be th same. But now I shall not be allowed to hunt with round balls as per our American Heritage? That is complete baloney. These laws are forcing everyone to go to whizzbang magnums and making it even harder to get close to game than it already is. The rest of he nation passed Hunting Heritage laws, and Californians get screwed. AB711 makes me foam at the mouth.

no experience with the round ball but i use this product in shot to reload for waterfowl now that bismuth bulk is no longer available. kills like lead and won't hurt the old guns.

http://www.ballisticproducts.com/ITX-Roundballs/products/508/

Whiterabbit
10-15-2013, 10:15 AM
They don't work. a guy brought them to the black powder DFG clinic and it wouldn't go down the barrel. They don't make them in a 58 cal, either. every other cal, but not 58 cal. Why? Because 58 cal (I guess) can shoot a .625" projectile, meaning I can buy brass ball bearings from McMaster and shoot them. For about $1.25 a pop.

Except the patch (which needs to be ridiculously thick) won't grip a ball bearing so the accuracy is just larger than dinner plate sized at 50 yards.

Whereas my rifle will score over 45 with 5 shots at 50 yards standing offhand with lead balls. 270 grain bullet 58 cal in diameter moving 1500-1700 fps depending on how much powder I pour down the barrel. Which would YOU rather hunt with?

And California says this piece of Heritage is responsible for environmental destruction? I don't think so. No doubt DFG will be silent when it comes to giving us a pass on lead due to unavailability of alternatives.

Just another way to take your heritage.

Justintoxicated
10-15-2013, 11:23 AM
They don't work. a guy brought them to the black powder DFG clinic and it wouldn't go down the barrel. They don't make them in a 58 cal, either. every other cal, but not 58 cal. Why? Because 58 cal (I guess) can shoot a .625" projectile, meaning I can buy brass ball bearings from McMaster and shoot them. For about $1.25 a pop.

Except the patch (which needs to be ridiculously thick) won't grip a ball bearing so the accuracy is just larger than dinner plate sized at 50 yards.

Whereas my rifle will score over 45 with 5 shots at 50 yards standing offhand with lead balls. 270 grain bullet 58 cal in diameter moving 1500-1700 fps depending on how much powder I pour down the barrel. Which would YOU rather hunt with?

And California says this piece of Heritage is responsible for environmental destruction? I don't think so. No doubt DFG will be silent when it comes to giving us a pass on lead due to unavailability of alternatives.

Just another way to take your heritage.

If they can't take your guns, they will make them worthless by taking your ammo. This is just the tip of the iceberg they have planned for us.

Colt.45ACP
10-15-2013, 3:31 PM
Can't we just shoot all the stupid condors and be done with those dumb birds. They're obviously not fit to survive on this planet to begin with. Lets just put out some bowls of antifreeze and call it a day! :hide:

Let's just wait till the condors run into the "green electricity" wind mills.
Problem solved!

deadcoyote
10-15-2013, 4:31 PM
I just bought a .58 cal Zouave percussion rifle...which is now worthless for hunting. Re enactor folks shoot me a PM if interested

toby
10-15-2013, 4:39 PM
It will only effect you if you cave/give in to the law.Seriously think about not hunting at all in this cockroach state for a couple years and they just may change their tune, if not NO big deal, the Game is better and more of it in other well managed states.