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Heretodaygonetomorrow
10-06-2013, 10:48 PM
A few LATE nights ago, I spotted a Thread that outlined how some SB374 text/wording exempted registered AWs from the CA 30" minimum overall length, and how the legal overall length would default back to the Federal 26" minimum length.

I don't remember if the text covered the minimum barrel length, and any changes to the 16" minimum for rifles.

Now, I can't find that Thread at all, and I wanted to review the information/conjectures it contained. Was the Thread removed for strategic reasons?

For example, I was wondering if the passing of SB374 would affect the use of folding stock paratrooper models of the M1 carbine, which if I remember are shorter than the 30" minimum and Banned in CA because of it.

Would the passing of SB374 make some now banned short folding stock rifles legal once again (as AWs)?

And what about my 16" heavy barrel Bushmaster Uppered AR Carbine? It has a RAW Eagle Arms EA-15 Lower? It's about 32.5" long with a CAR-Look Suppressor Muzzle Device and a M4 style collapsible stock at minimum length.

Could I install a 10.5" 5.56mm barrel (overall length would be 26" or slightly over) and stay legal?

Or, what about a 10.5" .300 Blackout Upper? I'm thinking using the .300 Blackout Upper on the RAW Lower with 220g subs for a house gun.

I'd also love to have a Thompson in .45ACP with the barrel length that it was designed for/with. The long barrel ruins the look IMHO. Could I buy one, register it as an AW, and install a shorter barrel?

patriot_man
10-06-2013, 11:21 PM
Could I install a 10.5" 5.56mm barrel (overall length would be 26" or slightly over) and stay legal?

Or, what about a 10.5" .300 Blackout Upper? I'm thinking using the .300 Blackout Upper on the RAW Lower with 220g subs for a house gun.


No and no.

The barrel must meet the 16" minimum as stated in the National Firearms Act unless you pay the tax stamps for the SBR.

stix213
10-07-2013, 11:42 AM
A few LATE nights ago, I spotted a Thread that outlined how some SB374 text/wording exempted registered AWs from the CA 30" minimum overall length, and how the legal overall length would default back to the Federal 26" minimum length.

I don't remember if the text covered the minimum barrel length, and any changes to the 16" minimum for rifles.

Now, I can't find that Thread at all, and I wanted to review the information/conjectures it contained. Was the Thread removed for strategic reasons?

For example, I was wondering if the passing of SB374 would affect the use of folding stock paratrooper models of the M1 carbine, which if I remember are shorter than the 30" minimum and Banned in CA because of it.

Would the passing of SB374 make some now banned short folding stock rifles legal once again (as AWs)?

And what about my 16" heavy barrel Bushmaster Uppered AR Carbine? It has a RAW Eagle Arms EA-15 Lower? It's about 32.5" long with a CAR-Look Suppressor Muzzle Device and a M4 style collapsible stock at minimum length.

Could I install a 10.5" 5.56mm barrel (overall length would be 26" or slightly over) and stay legal?

Or, what about a 10.5" .300 Blackout Upper? I'm thinking using the .300 Blackout Upper on the RAW Lower with 220g subs for a house gun.

I'd also love to have a Thompson in .45ACP with the barrel length that it was designed for/with. The long barrel ruins the look IMHO. Could I buy one, register it as an AW, and install a shorter barrel?

You seem to misunderstand the implication of the AW laws. There is no CA 30" minimum length, firearms can still be 26" in CA depending on the firearm and if it is a RAW or not. The issue is if they are below 30" and are a semi-automatic centerfire rifle then they are an Assault Weapon by definition. It is only legal to possess an assault weapon if it is a Registered Assault Weapon, an unregistered AW is a possible felony. This is a completely separate area of law from SBR law, which require a 16" barrel and 26" minimum length.

If you register a firearm as a Registered Assault Weapon under SB 374, it is obviously now an Assault Weapon regardless of length, and no changes you do that would normally be a violation of the law for an unregistered firearm can make it anymore "assaulty." After it becomes a RAW you just have to pay attention to SBR, SBS, NFA, and other laws, and have to pay attention to the assault weapon transport law, but not that much else. So NO you can't do a 10.5" barrel because that would be a Short Barreled Rifle (SBR) which is a completely separate law.

Heretodaygonetomorrow
10-07-2013, 12:46 PM
Thanks, I remember where I got the idea in my head that rifles had to be 30" or over in CA.

So my RAW Eagle Arms EA-15 can be as short as 26", but it has to have a barrel of at least 16". A barrel less than 16" would make it a SBR, and that's separate from it's being a RAW.

And that's makes sense now. Reading Threads about SCARs and locking the folding stock may be what confused me. From the specs, a SCAR 17S is 28.5" with a 16" barrel and the stock folded. This would make it an AW because of the length, even if it was equipped with a magazine lock.

Under current law, with a locked magazine and locked/blocked folding stock the length of a SCAR 17S is over 30". and it would not be an AW.

If SB374 is signed into law, SCARs are AWs, and the stock lock/block would not be necessary, just as bullet buttons would not be necessary anymore.

Which brings us back to the paratrooper M1 carbine. Since all M1 carbines would become AWs by virtue of the detachable magazine, then installing the paratrooper folding stock would not be illegal (as long as the gun was at least 26" long with the stock folded), after the gun is registered as a AW correct?

Dantedamean
10-07-2013, 12:58 PM
I always thought the 30" requirement in California came from our short barreled rifle laws not the assault weapon laws. So does this mean they won't be measured in their longest configuration? Does it instead revert back to fed law only?

bwiese
10-07-2013, 1:00 PM
A few LATE nights ago, I spotted a Thread that outlined how some SB374 text/wording exempted registered AWs from the CA 30" minimum overall length, and how the legal overall length would default back to the Federal 26" minimum length.


WRONG, at least on where it originated...

...This has been a longstanding (13+ year) function of extant SB23 AW law. This is even dealt with
in the Calguns AW Flowchart.

I worry about you because you don't realize this law is already in force and has been for over a decade
and that you may be a current violator.

ke6guj
10-07-2013, 1:06 PM
I always thought the 30" requirement in California came from our short barreled rifle laws not the assault weapon laws. So does this mean they won't be measured in their longest configuration? Does it instead revert back to fed law only?

CA has two OAL laws. there is the 26" OAL that all rifles and shotguns must comply with. originally there was no confirmation on whether that OAL was to be measured with the stock open or closed. Then Rooney case law determined that the OAL was measured with the stock closed. After Rooney, the AW laws were passed and an additional 30" rule was imposed for semi-auto centerfire rifles. at this point, we can only assume that the Rooney case law would apply to how the 30" was measured, even though that case law was for SBR and not for AW.

the CA 26" SBR law still applies, even for CA RAWs.

stix213
10-07-2013, 1:11 PM
I always thought the 30" requirement in California came from our short barreled rifle laws not the assault weapon laws. So does this mean they won't be measured in their longest configuration? Does it instead revert back to fed law only?

No it does not revert back to fed law at all.

The 30" requirement comes from CA PC 30515

http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/30515.html


30515. (a) Notwithstanding Section 30510, "assault weapon" also
means any of the following:
(1) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to
accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:
(A) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action
of the weapon.
(B) A thumbhole stock.
(C) A folding or telescoping stock.
(D) A grenade launcher or flare launcher.
(E) A flash suppressor.
(F) A forward pistol grip.
(2) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has a fixed magazine
with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.
(3) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has an overall length
of less than 30 inches.


The measured in longest configuration thing though comes specifically from a judge making a decision on an SBR case (People v Rooney) for a rifle that came in under 26" when folded. A rifle under 26" overall length or with a barrel under 16" in length is an SBR according to CA Penal Code 17170. People v Rooney was a case regarding CA PC 12020, which is the old numbering for SBR law, where the definition today was moved to 17170. You still have to comply with CA PC 17170 and all case law for SBR's even when your rifle is a Registered Assault Weapon.

http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/17170.html


17170. As used in Sections 16530 and 16640, Sections 17720 to
17730, inclusive, Section 17740, Article 1 (commencing with Section
27500) of Chapter 4 of Division 6 of Title 4, and Article 1
(commencing with Section 33210) of Chapter 8 of Division 10 of Title
4, "short-barreled rifle" means any of the following:
(a) A rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in
length.
(b) A rifle with an overall length of less than 26 inches.
(c) Any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration,
modification, or otherwise) if that weapon, as modified, has an
overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less
than 16 inches in length.
(d) Any device that may be readily restored to fire a fixed
cartridge which, when so restored, is a device defined in
subdivisions (a) to (c), inclusive.
(e) Any part, or combination of parts, designed and intended to
convert a device into a device defined in subdivisions (a) to (c),
inclusive, or any combination of parts from which a device defined in
subdivisions (a) to (c), inclusive, may be readily assembled if
those parts are in the possession or under the control of the same
person.

Dantedamean
10-07-2013, 1:36 PM
No it does not revert back to fed law at all.

The 30" requirement comes from CA PC 30515

http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/30515.html



The measured in longest configuration thing though comes specifically from a judge making a decision on an SBR case (People v Rooney) for a rifle that came in under 26" when folded. A rifle under 26" overall length or with a barrel under 16" in length is an SBR according to CA Penal Code 17170. People v Rooney was a case regarding CA PC 12020, which is the old numbering for SBR law, where the definition today was moved to 17170. You still have to comply with CA PC 17170 and all case law for SBR's even when your rifle is a Registered Assault Weapon.

http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/17170.html

Okay cool, thanks for clarifying, I wish I had saved up for a Tavor now. Same deal for shotguns? I have a saiga.

ke6guj
10-07-2013, 1:37 PM
A few LATE nights ago, I spotted a Thread that outlined how some SB374 text/wording exempted registered AWs from the CA 30" minimum overall length, and how the legal overall length would default back to the Federal 26" minimum length.
correct. CA RAWs are exempt from the 30" OAL for semi-auto centerfire rifles, lest they be considered an AW. But they still have to comply with the CA 26" OAL law which is more strict than the Federal 26" OAL law.



And what about my 16" heavy barrel Bushmaster Uppered AR Carbine? It has a RAW Eagle Arms EA-15 Lower? It's about 32.5" long with a CAR-Look Suppressor Muzzle Device and a M4 style collapsible stock at minimum length.

Could I install a 10.5" 5.56mm barrel (overall length would be 26" or slightly over) and stay legal?

Or, what about a 10.5" .300 Blackout Upper? I'm thinking using the .300 Blackout Upper on the RAW Lower with 220g subs for a house gun.

I'd also love to have a Thompson in .45ACP with the barrel length that it was designed for/with. The long barrel ruins the look IMHO. Could I buy one, register it as an AW, and install a shorter barrel?no, there are two parts to the SBR laws, the 26" OAL portion and the 16" barrel portion. by going with a <16" barrel, you create an SBR, even if OAL is over 26". RAWs are not exempt from neither CA's nor the Fed's SBR laws.

PhillyGunner
10-07-2013, 1:41 PM
The way CA PC 17170 (e) reads, I might be concerned to have even a registered pistol upper with a barrel under 12.5" anywhere near a rifle lower... even if SB 374 passes.

(e) Any part, or combination of parts, designed and intended to
convert a device into a device defined in subdivisions (a) to (c),
inclusive, or any combination of parts from which a device defined in
subdivisions (a) to (c), inclusive, may be readily assembled if
those parts are in the possession or under the control of the same
person.

Bolding is mine.

stix213
10-07-2013, 1:42 PM
Okay cool, thanks for clarifying, I wish I had saved up for a Tavor now. Same deal for shotguns? I have a saiga.

Saiga semi-auto shotguns are covered by a separate part of the same AW law I cited but didn't quote the part about shotguns. You can click the link to see the rest in my previous post. Shotguns can't be SBR's, but they can be SBS's. Needs to be 26" OAL and 18" barrel per SBS law. I don't know if there is case law on SBS length calculation, but there is no reason to think the SBR length methods wouldn't apply.

Heretodaygonetomorrow
10-07-2013, 11:52 PM
WRONG, at least on where it originated...

...This has been a longstanding (13+ year) function of extant SB23 AW law. This is even dealt with
in the Calguns AW Flowchart.

I worry about you because you don't realize this law is already in force and has been for over a decade
and that you may be a current violator.



My AR based guns are over 32.5" (stocks collapsed) and always have been. I was just wondering if I could go down to 26" overall length (stocks collapsed) if SB374 is signed into law, and I am required to register any ARs that are not already RAWs. So, it looks like no short barrelled AR .300 Blackout house gun.

And, thinking about about getting a Thompson that looks like a Thompson...

stix213
10-09-2013, 12:42 AM
My AR based guns are over 32.5" (stocks collapsed) and always have been. I was just wondering if I could go down to 26" overall length (stocks collapsed) if SB374 is signed into law, and I am required to register any ARs that are not already RAWs. So, it looks like no short barrelled AR .300 Blackout house gun.

And, thinking about about getting a Thompson that looks like a Thompson...

Been debated in many threads without clear concensus, but my opinion is if you read the modified PC it is pretty clear that registered AW's can't be in violation of the AW ban by making changes that would have turned it into an AW prior to registration and SB 374, in fact they are specifically exempted.