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CK_32
10-06-2013, 7:05 AM
Long story short. I had to hit burro public range. Set up. As soon as the line went hot my target blew over twice. So basically I had to wait 2 hours to have a target to shoot at and had to zero my rifle on a rock at the feet of where my target fell over.



So can any OCW pros see anything here? I feel like there is some consistent POI around 45 - 46. But I always read these wrong.


http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p14/sportin3s/b6993c9d-23e0-40c7-894b-8351bb07443d_zps73390b52.jpg



Left to Right:

Top: 43.8 - 44.2 - 44.6 - 45.0 - 45.4

Bottom: 45.8 - 46.2 - 46.6 - 47.0


http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p14/sportin3s/OCW_zps2f134a46.jpg


175 SMK, WCC bras, Varget 2.800 OAL @ 100 yards.


Rifle: Remington 700 SPS tactical B/C A3 Stock 1:12


No pressure signs seen. Even at 47.0. Have no clue what happened to the 3rd shot on 46.2.

CK_32
10-06-2013, 7:08 AM
I posted this on Snipershide and Dan and the guys over there said this couldn't be read because it needs to be closer to the target to be usable. I know that would make it easier. But I don't why it being low would change how they patterned. I'm sure if there was a way to photoshop the impacts north relative to the target someone could get something.


I know the location is shotty but the pattern should show/say something.

bubbala
10-06-2013, 7:50 AM
i'm guessing in that much wind getting a tight group would be tough. but they're all low about 6"? and left 2"?
btw sighting in on a rock is not a bad way to go,you can see your misses in the dirt.

Bastard
10-06-2013, 8:00 AM
to start; where are you getting your data?
as I just checked the Hodgdon website for that load & it states that you are 2 gr over max. with a 42gr starting.

if memory serves correctly you will have much better luck with a 1:12 using a lighter bullet.
also I do remember hearing somewhere that the 175smk don't like to go fast.


on a side note - I have never had much luck with Varget & as such stick to the classic IMR4064
but then again I am pushing 175 SMKs out of a Savage 1:10

NorCalFocus
10-06-2013, 10:52 AM
1. switch to 5 shot groups. If you have one flyer out of a 5 shot group you still have a group.

2. Yeah you're over max http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

3. Get it on paper. All the loads are hitting near the same POI, so adjust the scope on get on target.

4. What are you shooting off of? Bi-Pod, bags, sticks?

5. Get some 168 SMK's the 1:12 twist will handle those much better.

This is good idea of what your test loads should look like.
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7299/9976426163_d1fbb5a922_b.jpg

postal
10-06-2013, 3:01 PM
To be brutally honest.... My concern is about your shooting ability. And without another shooter using your rifle for comparison, I would have no idea if it was a charge issue or a shooter issue.

I say that because even at 100yd you're no where near the bull. That you didnt adjust the scope to get on bull makes me question your ability to aim and shoot for groups.

Sorry if that comes out like me sounding like an jerk- it isnt my intention.

I'm lucky- when I have issues with my groups- like this morning.... I have my brother shoot the rifle and between the two of us, we can see what's really going on.

As to your heavy powder charges... did you notice hard bolt lift? Did you look at the primers on each case and notice the primer starting to flatten out on the edge?

This concerns me- that I dont know your experience level to be sure you know what to look for as signs of high pressure.

I shoot a 1/10 twist-
175 smk
44.8g varget (more than most people use- most people are between 43-44)
2.810 COAL

Bastard
10-06-2013, 3:12 PM
To be brutally honest.... My concern is about your shooting ability. And without another shooter using your rifle for comparison, I would have no idea if it was a charge issue or a shooter issue.



I was going under the assumption that the OP is atleast capable of shooting MOA groups.

OP have you tried shooting factory match ammo?
it doesn't hurt to start with a couple of boxes of factory (Black Hills is a personal favorite) to see what both you & the rifle are capable of.



Sorry if that comes out like me sounding like an jerk- it isnt my intention.

I on the other hand - have no problem sounding like a jerk

NiteQwill
10-06-2013, 4:12 PM
Aren't you a little over max on that load? Just because you don't see pressure signs doesn't mean it's okay. Time to reopen the books.

I say you have to get back to the basics of shooting and then make sure you're equipment is setup properly. Base & ring torque, eye relief, your stock/chassis, everything...

Then pay attention to your load development. Are you using a chronograph?

This was my group on Friday using a 16.5 inch 1 in 10 twist R700. With some nasty 30+ mph winds. I am going to further develop between 41.5 and 42.5 because the groups were almost identical except a 50 and 100 fps difference, respectively.

http://www.sk8ng.com/dusty/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Remingotn-700-AAC-Grouping.jpg

Raralith
10-06-2013, 4:43 PM
How were you shooting your rifle? Bipod? Bags? Front and/or rear? Are you a steady shot? I always try to take the human factor out of the equation so it's all about the gun and handload abilities, e.g., Ledsled or bags front and and bunny ears rear.

As others have pointed out, that's over the recommended load. Where are you getting your load data? What reloading handbook are you using? Are you confident in your powder figures? Lyman 49th's recommends 40.0 min to 45.2 max for your load so you should have started your load development at 40. I do 5x loads at 0.3 increments for 308 Winchester.

CK_32
10-06-2013, 5:01 PM
Ok so for the choice of 175 SMK. These are my 1k loads. 175s are better rounds for 1k than 168s out at distance. It can be done but you really need to get them screaming to do anything last 700. For the speed they might not like to be pushed but in order to keep the 175 transonic past 700 yards you need at least 2300 FPS near the muzzle to still have around 900 FPS at 1k.

For the accuracy of my self and my rifle before the addition of the B&C stock I was able to shoot sub MOA (.76 average) with Winchester white box 147gr at 150 yards when I really tried so I'm sure I'm with in spec. Not the best shooter in the world but I believe that's around average.

As for the zero again I was at a public range with things not going in my favor so it was a bit rushed again figured even if the zero is off the pattern will be the exact same aside from relation to target.

As for the grains I'm using pressure signs do mean a lot. This is not a match chamber so by the grains I'm able to achieve I'm 90% sure I have a loose chamber. Match chambers are tighter and better fit allowing more pressure with lower powder throws creating more FPS at lower grain weight. Not all rifles can shoot at 42.3 grains and get 2500 FPS at the muzzle. I'm also using a 20" barrel so if your comparing it to a 22"/24" rifle is a bit different for MV.


As for the max if you reload you should know book max is not case max due to legal reasons and error on the safe side. Reason most shooters rifle and pistol alike usually exceed book max listed for their (hot loads or match loads). Although I don't prefer to shoot 47gr my rifle does not show any signs of danger but I wouldn't exceed that personally although I know some that do.


I'm also shooting off a tab gear rear bag, pack up front, under a B&C A3 stock. To where I'm getting my data is Hogdons site and my hornady book included with my load kit. Which both list varget and 174 SMK at 46.0 max. Again listed max does not mean case max for all rifles. It's stated on the lighter side of error for legal reasons. But I agree if don't feel the need ho shoot much above 46.5gr.


I'm just looking for a reading fellas. Do you see anything or not? I'm pretty sure my shooting skills and rifle are adequate to do OCW. Just my range day did not quite go as planned lol

postal
10-06-2013, 5:20 PM
I dont see much in it.

I think you really need to do it again with 5 shot groups. and start at 43.0

russ69
10-06-2013, 5:37 PM
You are doing OK. I'd knock down the load a bit because you don't have measured velocity but I believe you when you say it's still a safe load. Your bottom targets all look equivalent given the limited data. Re-run your test using 5 shot groups minimum, I'd even shoot 10 shot groups if I was going to compete with that rifle. You want to look at the group shape and pick the one that's nice and round. Oh, and dial up the scope a few clicks, so you can take the targets home for further study.
It's also time to move out to 300 yards and see what the groups look like.

Bastard
10-06-2013, 6:05 PM
I was thinking more along the lines of the 155 gr for a 1 in 12 twist.

as far as pushing the load that fast - I think that you will be surprised with a lesser charge; but it is your gun & your loads.

and as far as pushing it out to 1K+ - if I were working up a load for 1k+ I would be using the Berger VLDs rather than the SMKs in any weight.

oh and as far as OCW - I don't see it.
though I would guess about 44gr
however it would be to difficult to tell unless you re-zero & re-shoot

Raralith
10-06-2013, 8:07 PM
A few things than based on the additional data you provided:
- Using a ballistics calculator: 1. 2,300 fps at muzzle using 2. 175 grain bullet with 3. 0.505 BC:
Range Velocity Impact Drop ToF Energy Drift
0 2300 -0.5 0 0 2056 0
50 2217 0.64 0.98 0.07 1910 0
100 2139 0 3.73 0.14 1778 0
150 2062 -2.54 8.39 0.21 1652 0
200 1987 -7.14 15.1 0.28 1534 0
250 1913 -13.95 24.03 0.36 1422 0
300 1842 -23.14 35.33 0.44 1318 0
350 1772 -34.9 49.21 0.52 1220 0
400 1705 -49.43 65.85 0.61 1130 0
450 1639 -66.95 85.49 0.7 1044 0
500 1576 -87.72 108.37 0.79 965 0
550 1515 -111.97 134.74 0.89 892 0
600 1457 -140.01 164.89 0.99 825 0
650 1402 -172.13 199.13 1.1 764 0
700 1349 -208.66 237.77 1.2 707 0
750 1300 -249.94 281.17 1.32 657 0
800 1255 -296.33 329.67 1.44 612 0
850 1212 -348.19 383.65 1.56 571 0
900 1174 -405.92 443.49 1.68 536 0
950 1139 -469.88 509.57 1.81 504 0
1000 1109 -540.46 582.26 1.95 478 0
You've still got plenty of power, and you are shooting paper, not an elk.
- Shooting with a 20" is going to give you roughly 100 fps less than a 24"
- Lyman data, min of 40 grains @ 2459 fps (24" barrel) / 2359 fps (20" barrel)
- Lyman data, max of 45.2 grains @ 2708 fps / 2608 fps
- Hodgen's data, 42 grains @ 2583 fps / 2483 fps
- Hodgen's data, 45 grains @ 2690 fps / 2590 fps
- The Hodgen's and Lyman data line up with max loads almost identical

Bottom line, you do NOT need to use that much powder. This has nothing to do with the maximum data used in reloading books for legal purposes; everyone already understands that if you read the first few pages. What most of us are suggesting you do is to start from the minimum load, and do a better load test to see what your gun and barrel likes. At the very least, do 0.3 increments so you get at least 3 shots in each grain load, and do 5 loads which will give you more data. Once you know what is working, start going for 600 yards and beyond. If you are having problems at that range, develop another load at the higher end that gives you gives you the tightest group. Also, a 20" barrel isn't a *great* choice to shoot 1,000 yards, and I know because I'm shooting a Remington 700 out of a 20" barrel; would have highly recommended the 26" for that. Also, your targets are terrible, get better targets -> http://www.huntingnet.com/targets/ If you don't have access to a color printer, use a highlighter.

CK_32
10-06-2013, 9:06 PM
You guys do ralize that's what I'm doing here right? Lol I feel like there is a hitch in communication

Started from 43.8 to 47.0 in .4gr increments trying to find OCW and a optimal load and checked for pressure signs every shot expecting to stop aroun 46gr but ran into no issues?

This was my load testing. I'm not looking to use 47.0 I just went up there to find pressure signs and have a clear window for my nodes expecting to be around 45 gr but to make sure I didn't leave anything out. It's better to pull bullets than not load them and need them. Right?

russ69
10-06-2013, 9:46 PM
You guys do ralize that's what I'm doing here right? Lol I feel like there is a hitch in communication...

I understand completely but you have a data set that is not statistically significant. You need 7 shot groups at a minimum to get the standard deviation down to a good working number. Better yet would be a number of seven shot groups. A 3 shot group is not going do you any good in collecting significant data.

LynnJr
10-06-2013, 9:58 PM
ck_32
Most here really don't understand pressure so don't sweat the details or they will have your thread deleted.
You are only looking for vertical stringing so your two shot group is the best one pictured.
The OCW is just a ladder test done three times round robin style and is a huge waste of components in my humble opinion.In looking at your target you can remove one shot from each group and get a better understanding of what you actually have.
This is why it is best to do a ladder test.

postal
10-07-2013, 12:02 PM
I disagree with Lynn. Look at the picture from NorcalFocus. #3 is the winner... but #4 has similar vertical spread. However #4 has a horizontal stringing. Even if you ignore the far right shot as a possible flyer.

I see all the time vertical, diagonal and horizontal stringing. Why would you say the powdercharge/node would *only affect* a vertical?

Depending on wind conditions, perhaps horizontal can be ignored, but only if there's a bad wind condition.

LynnJr
10-07-2013, 7:55 PM
Vertical is your powder charge and horizontal is the shooter.
We are only interested in the barrel moving in a vertical plane so shots left or right are the shooter or conditions.If he shot the rifle in a tunnel his results would be much better.
If they are not the rifle itself is bad.

I am also not surprised you disagree but the OCW is not optimum in my opinion.

If his rifle is truly throwing all his shots an inch from the other two its junk.

What has most likely happened is he has spent so much time firing all of his shots three times the conditions have changed and all of his shots have changed there point of impact skewing his results.

I have had this conversation many times with Dan.

postal
10-07-2013, 8:27 PM
Lynn,

Please have a look at the target NorcalFocus posted. If it was PURELY vertical dispersion you're concerned with, target #4 appears to have a very slightly less spread than target #3. Though its REALLY close...

I say target 3 is where he needs to be refining his powder charge, but according to your last post, he should maybe be working with #4.

What are your thoughts after seeing those targets? I say refining 3 in 1/10 increments above and below that charge.

I like it because it tightened up and is basically round.

Where as #4 is basically diagonal stringing. excluding the flyer.

NorCalFocus
10-07-2013, 8:42 PM
Lol yes #3 is the load I'm going with by the way. And yes the one is a flyer I pulled the shot.

I'm in agreement with postal on the stringing.

Arcaporale
10-07-2013, 9:03 PM
There seems to be a lot going on here. I think many are surprised you only worked 3 shot groups, and not one seemed really any better than the other.

First, I would use a bipod.

Secondly, I'd look your projectile choice. Your 1:12 twist might not cut it for the 175 SMKs. Also for 1000 yds with a 175 SMK you really want to be pushing 2600 fps to be able to hit 1000 yd targets reliably and give yourself a little buffer zone. It may be hard for that 20" get those projos going fast enough to be a real 1000 yard load. Maybe look into the 155 scenars or try a box of 175 FGMM before loading any more 175's.

Third, I would look at load development strategy. For me a good day at the range is shooting maybe 3-5 different loads only. I work in .3-.1 grain increments and shoot 2- 5 shot groups, working sequentially, meaning I shoot 1 round from one load, move on the next load and shoot one at the next target. It's more tedious but it can make for more reliable, accurate data. More shot groups in smaller increments. Once you find a node in the accuracy range you want, fine tune it to .1 grain increments.

There's really nothing to gather from this data. But that's part of learning this stuff, patience.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk - now Free (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

thegiff
10-08-2013, 8:44 AM
On my 308 I've got a 22" barrel, 1 in 12 twist. Using Federal cases (considered by many to be the worst for reloading because they are softer than other makes, but used in Federal Gold Medal Match), my load after an OCW test for 175SMK's was 43.8 grains. Chrono'd 2630fps out of it, which should keep them supersonic to 1000yd just barely.

That OCW was in 5 shot groups, .3 grain increments, shot off sandbags. I was surprised at how clear the stringing was. One load was diagonal to the left, another was diagonal to the right, another nearly horizontal. One was nearly perfectly round, that was at 43.8, which is remarkably close to a lot of other peoples best loads, I hear around 43.5 is pretty common.

Unfortunately, your groups look just like a someones I saw a couple months back, traced to the rifle needed bedding. No coherent pattern that I can see. I suspect in your case the wind was blowing you and the rifle around as well as the bullets, making the results on target too unclear to tell. I did a little shooting in high winds a couple days ago, gusts hit 25mph, average was 12mph, and I couldn't hold the rifle as steady as normal and my groups suffered.

I got pressure signs at 44.3 grains on the Federal brass. I never chrono'd winchester brass with 175's, but I did with the 155's, at the same loads the winchester brass was slower.

mark501w
10-08-2013, 11:50 AM
what's changed? the load & the stock , change the bullet try some 150's since you had good luck with them in the past. If that doesn't work check the stock. try shooting individual targets with 5 shots dry brush the bore every 2-3 targets & see what happens.

Whiterabbit
10-08-2013, 1:16 PM
Lol yes #3 is the load I'm going with by the way. And yes the one is a flyer I pulled the shot.

I'm in agreement with postal on the stringing.

I suggest you listen to LynnJr.

Personally, I like your "blue" work better than your "red" work. I am ignoring the data and whether or not you're overloading the cartridge. That's your business, not mine (we are all adults here). But I don't like 45.0 because .4 grains up and down opens up again. Average vertical position is all over the place. Even if you pull one shot out of each group like Lynn suggests (did I mention listen to Lynn?), it looks like more vertical variance with the "red" groups as compared to the "blue" groups. I'm looking for a robust process window, not that one charge that's perfect when you nail it to the nearest .0001 grain.

Might be worth trying a traditional ladder or a 3 round OCW farther away. It's hard to see vertical differentiation from target to target at this distance.

postal
10-08-2013, 3:03 PM
Whiterabbit.

I think you confused the two people and the two targets....

Red and blue circles on targets are from the original poster "CK 32".

Norcal Focus the guy you quoted posted his own testing targets on Post #5... No red or blue on those....

Whiterabbit
10-08-2013, 3:17 PM
You are right, I did. Thanks for clarifying that for me.

rereading that one, id go with charge #4, for the same reasons above. Of course, NorcalFocus did not ask for advice or opinions. Not my intentions to pass judgment on the target on post #5. But I like group #4 better, personally.

postal
10-08-2013, 3:25 PM
You are right, I did. Thanks for clarifying that for me.

rereading that one, id go with charge #4, for the same reasons above. Of course, NorcalFocus did not ask for advice or opinions. Not my intentions to pass judgment on the target on post #5. But I like group #4 better, personally.

So I would ask you the same question I posed to Lynn. (who hasnt answered yet)

#3 tightened up and is nice and round.
#4 if you ignore the flyer on the right has a distinct diagonal stringing.

The vertical dispersion between the 2 is very similar but #4 maybe just a little less.

So why do you like #4? Would you agree there is a clear diagonal stringing? And you find that acceptable? Why?

Justintoxicated
10-08-2013, 3:49 PM
I'm not pro but I can't tell **** from your groups. Sorry, probably not the best day to test loads but work on your groups!
I'd try starting with lower charges, my 308AR shot well with both 40gr and 43gr varget, most 700's seem to do well with 43-43.6 and 175 smks although some go higher for long range shots. I was getting pressure signs with 40gr though so I may try to go lower.

What I do is start with .5gr increments for 308 and 30-06, once I find the best I do .2gr increments up and down from there on the next trip.

I'm pretty sure your rifle should be more accurate than my 308 AR.

I always pull the 5th shot...Or maybe the barrel starts heating up but I'm still working on groups myself.
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2834/9777361114_1939a84f70_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/28650323@N07/9777361114/)
lr 308 100 yards (http://www.flickr.com/photos/28650323@N07/9777361114/) by Glamisduner (http://www.flickr.com/people/28650323@N07/), on Flickr
175 SMKs

I'm finding 308 is a hard round to figure out. So far almost everything I load does well, so it is difficult to say what is best. I might have to try various loads the next 3 range trips then take the average of which grain shoots the best. I get pressure signs no matter what I load also, so I'm thinking about dropping down to 38gr varget.
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5494/9777195552_543cc5e788_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/28650323@N07/9777195552/)
lr 308 100 yards varget 175smk (http://www.flickr.com/photos/28650323@N07/9777195552/) by Glamisduner (http://www.flickr.com/people/28650323@N07/), on Flickr
175 SMKs

All 3 groups I pulled my 5th shot :(
Wind won't matter too much at 100 yards, I mean it was pretty windy and gusty when I shot those.

russ69
10-08-2013, 5:07 PM
You are a good shot there Justintox and you have a good rifle. Don't ever sell that one. Want to get in on a little shooting contest? http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=833532

I guess you haven't heard that ARs are no good.

Justintoxicated
10-08-2013, 9:27 PM
You are a good shot there Justintox and you have a good rifle. Don't ever sell that one. Want to get in on a little shooting contest? http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=833532

I guess you haven't heard that ARs are no good.

Vs a 22 bolt action? Sure lol. With a little practice anyone can shoot decent groups from bags on a bench. I have alot to learn still and too little time to become a good shot. Still trying to figure out my loads.

I just think the op should start with lower weight charge and repeat the test. Work on slow trigger pull and finger position. And pick a less windy day.

Also wonder what scope the op is using? Is the parallax adjusted properly?

Whiterabbit
10-08-2013, 10:45 PM
So I would ask you the same question I posed to Lynn. (who hasnt answered yet)

#3 tightened up and is nice and round.
#4 if you ignore the flyer on the right has a distinct diagonal stringing.

The vertical dispersion between the 2 is very similar but #4 maybe just a little less.

So why do you like #4? Would you agree there is a clear diagonal stringing? And you find that acceptable? Why?

I like #4 because what I am looking for is more than group size. Even more than vertical uniformity within loads. I am looking for vertical uniformity with respect to load-to-load uniformity.

I do not ignore group size or horizontal uniformity, I simply disregard them up front. I file away the info for later consideration.

When I look at the rough vertical center in the middle of all five shots (I call no flyers), groups 3, 4, and 5 are in roughly the same spot. slightly below bull. Group 1 is well above what I assume is the aim spot, and group 2 is just above.

What I see is advancing group size that drops the point of impact as the charge is changing. I like #4 because it's in the middle of three sets of groups that don't change much in vertical position. (it would help to see this test at farther distances, where it's easier to see vertical position changes)

Charge weight #4 tells me that if my power drop is varying, if the scale is off, breeze blows by, etc that causes non uniformity at the loading bench, I will likely NOT see a performance change downrange as a result of that.

In short, targeting charge #4 is likely to give me a more robust load. I don't believe it's necessary to control powder charge to insane tolerance like some calgunners do. Factory ammo often groups incredibly well and is not likely to hold the same tolerance we do.

So that's the reason why I'd target charge #4. I would even leave it there. I'd start fiddling with other factors, namely, OAL. I'd use OAL and whatever factor seemed appropriate to try to target a fine group size or reduce diagonal stringing, or just plain load up a bunch and shoot for groups a few times on different days to get a feel for consistency. Lots of ways to enjoy the process development.

But if I started at #3, then two things will happen. Either I get some variance in my powder charges and the velocity SD goes crazy on me as well as poor downrange performance, or I have to be (I get to be) yet another calgunner who says he has to control his powder charges to better than .1 grains on an uber precision scale just to keep velocity spread low.

I'll take the robust load.

Raralith
10-09-2013, 6:10 AM
Justintoxicated, what brass are you using? Might not be the powder.

NorCalFocus
10-09-2013, 9:33 AM
Well I went with #3, 43 grains. Loaded up another 75 rounds as I need something for an upcoming trip. If I start seeing bad groups at longer distance I can test more between 43g and the 43.5g (which is what #4 is). I also plan on playing with the OAL.

But for now the gun still out shoots me so I'm happy with what I got for now. Bit thanks for the info Rabbit. I'm still learning a lot.

Whiterabbit
10-09-2013, 9:57 AM
Norcal, unlike some other suggestions from others, I also find that my rifles like MORE jump to the lands, not less. Kinda goes like this:

jammed into the lands: great
smidge off: good
little deeper: kinda bad
deeper still: even worse
worse...
better...
better...
Better than jammed into the lands. Keeper.

That's just how it goes for me. I'm not seated crazy deep or anything, but I don't seat way out to just kiss or just miss the lands either. With deep seat I get closer to 100% case fill, better neck tension, and lower pressure (according to the literature), and it shows downrange.

doing just that, using the "wrong" powder with the "wrong" bullet in a cheap savage 338 lapua (that the gun rags say is a poor gun), I was able to get 1.5" vertical groups at 320 yards with a minimum of components. pretty straightforward, actually. of course clovers at 100 yards. And during velocity testing that happened to be at 50 yards (was testing several guns) two rounds made one perfectly round hole, something I've never seen before or since (except youtube).

I understand this is unsolicited advice worth exactly what you paid for it.

good luck to you though.

NorCalFocus
10-09-2013, 10:34 AM
No it's great advise. I love learning this stuff.

Also I'm shooting 165 game kings seated at 2.80 IIRC.

postal
10-09-2013, 10:48 AM
Norcal, unlike some other suggestions from others, I also find that my rifles like MORE jump to the lands, not less. Kinda goes like this:

jammed into the lands: great
smidge off: good
little deeper: kinda bad
deeper still: even worse
worse...
better...
better...
Better than jammed into the lands. Keeper.

That's just how it goes for me. I'm not seated crazy deep or anything, but I don't seat way out to just kiss or just miss the lands either. With deep seat I get closer to 100% case fill, better neck tension, and lower pressure (according to the literature), and it shows downrange.

doing just that, using the "wrong" powder with the "wrong" bullet in a cheap savage 338 lapua (that the gun rags say is a poor gun), I was able to get 1.5" vertical groups at 320 yards with a minimum of components. pretty straightforward, actually. of course clovers at 100 yards. And during velocity testing that happened to be at 50 yards (was testing several guns) two rounds made one perfectly round hole, something I've never seen before or since (except youtube).

I understand this is unsolicited advice worth exactly what you paid for it.

good luck to you though.

Very interesting- Thanks for the detailed responses.

The general consensus on seating depths varies by specific bullet and of course trial and error. and of course chamber dimension.

The general consensus is...
SMK's like a jump of about 25 thou.
Scenars like to be jammed into the lands.

For those 2 bullets, it gives a starting point of testing for what usually works for most people.

The downside of jamming into the lands though... Is sometimes if you chamber a round and unload the round without firing, the bullet can stick in the lands while the brass gets pulled out... and powder fills up your entire chamber/action....

Whiterabbit
10-09-2013, 12:18 PM
They might, I don't shoot jacketed bullets and can't comment on them (any of them). I only shoot solids made from cast lead or turned copper. seating far off the lands helped with barnes bullets in a 7x57 with a HUGE throat and also helped the lapua when shooting E-tips.

I hear you on the unseating the bullet. I've done that before with the 7x57. No biggie though, just blow into the action to clear out the powder and move on. Annoying though. Another reason not to jam into the lands if an equivalent performer is found, IMO.

Justintoxicated
10-09-2013, 4:23 PM
Justintoxicated, what brass are you using? Might not be the powder.

The above picture used LC 00 brass.
However I also have high pressure signs when shooting 155gr SMK Palma using starting loads with black hills brass (I think winchester)

postal
10-09-2013, 4:34 PM
That's really odd. Probably a really short throat. Most people are 43-44 varget. I run 44.8 with 175s in BHA brass in my long throat factory barrel...
(yes BHA is win brass)

LynnJr
10-09-2013, 7:17 PM
Lynn,

Please have a look at the target NorcalFocus posted. If it was PURELY vertical dispersion you're concerned with, target #4 appears to have a very slightly less spread than target #3. Though its REALLY close...

I say target 3 is where he needs to be refining his powder charge, but according to your last post, he should maybe be working with #4.

What are your thoughts after seeing those targets? I say refining 3 in 1/10 increments above and below that charge.

I like it because it tightened up and is basically round.

Where as #4 is basically diagonal stringing. excluding the flyer.

Postal
I don't agree with your assessment of target 3 and 4 being close.On my computer target 3 is roughly 3.75 mouse pointers high and target 4 is roughly 6 high.
I was working so I couldn't post right away.
On the original posters 3 shot groups it is clear the conditions changed his point of impact so his best bet would be to throw out all of the shots way out.
You have to remember as well we are looking at a powder charge window not a single point so yes I would load up 3 shot groups for a full grain around his best vertical.
In high heat I would error on the low end of the window and in cold weather I would error on the high end of the window.
I would use a good quality scale on my match loads and measure the loads to the kernel.
He will have a seating depth window that looks very similar to a powder window in that it has a small amount of width.Using a bullet comparator measuring off the ogive i would make my match loads as close as possible or 0.001 on a caliper.
This method in wind at 1000 yards won't show much on the target but if the wind remains constant it is well worth the extra effort in my testing.

Edit: I have included a seating depth picture showing a typical 0.001 increment step across a seating depth window at 200 yards.Notice how the one group stands out against the others with only 0.001 difference.The test was done with out of the box bullets unsorted.

postal
10-10-2013, 2:55 PM
I find your pic of COAL interesting... .001 clearly makes a significant difference... Would have thought it would take a little more than that... like .002/.003...

However your comments on the group sizes of #3 and #4 leave me puzzled. I was asking about your thoughts on the pic from user "norcalfocus" in post #5.

Were your comments above regarding the very first pic in the thread?

LynnJr
10-10-2013, 5:55 PM
The seating depth testing was done with a 64 pound 6 Dasher and that is about all one can expect out of that case at 200 yards.I did quite a bit of testing and believe the flyers we see at distance come from to much seating variation.The US. Team is now holding there seating depth to 0.001 variation so I don't plan on changing any time soon.

On the vertical spread I was comparing the two targets from your earlier post.On my computer I can stack the mouse arrows on top of each other and completely disregard horizontal.I think you can print the two targets out and overlay them to see what I am talking about.
My printer ran out of ink but you can still compare the two groups.I ran a pen over the target and that is why it came out so bad.

postal
10-10-2013, 8:14 PM
I see... I was looking at the shot placement on target while judging size by the target rings. Ignoring the flyer, they seem very similar. The picture you showed is obviously different than what saw.

What I see still, looking at the pic, is both have 1 shot right at the line on top of bull, and dropping down to the bottom, center of the 9 ring line...

On closer inspection, it appears #3 has a very slightly less vertical spread judging by the target rings ignoring the flyer.

The image you posted, is of the same hole location, but seems like target 4 was enlarged compared to target 3 judging by shot placement on the target rings... I'm fairly sure the targets were the same size... Your drawing in the picture seems out of scale in comparison.

Dont think I'm 'picking on you'. I'm picking your brain for useful information. Just like "whiterabbit" who answered my questions very thoroughly and I learned a lot, and thank him for his time.

LynnJr
10-11-2013, 11:01 AM
Postal
My printer ran out of ink so I got no rings on the targets.The bullet holes are there just extremely faint and don't show up in photos.
If you can print the target yourself then cut out the groups with scissors and stack them on top of each other.
I did no funny stuff to the targets just tried circling the holes with a pen.

In a nutshell handloading match ammo is done to remove the vertical component.
If your barrel is drooping due to gravity when the round is fired the barrel will be on the rise when the bullet exits.If the barrel is topped out or headed down your accuracy will suffer.
Because of this we are only interested in finding the least amount of vertical with our powder charge and the seating depth will further optimise the pressure curve and tighten up the groups as well.
If your doing a ladder test or OCW they work well because we are just looking for a location to dance around.
In your earlier post you said a 1 grain window and that is exactly how I would finish my testing for the powder charge.
The big test fixtures make this part of the equation very easy.
Switchbarrel who also posts here has a very similar set up to mine and has done quite well on the national circuit since he got it.
On tactical guns and lighter weight guns the testing can get downright frustrating in moderate wind and this causes most shooters to quit testing before there load is fully optimized.