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RP1911
01-21-2008, 12:16 PM
I just got popped for two gun locks = $40.92 after sales tax. Even though one of the guns came with a factory lock still in an unopened package (both guns were private party transfer). I had filled out the Safe Affidavit form on the day of the DROS.

They would not let me have the guns without purchase of the locks. I even had a locking 4-gun SKB case with me.

This is the second time (two different stores) that have forced me to buy a gun lock.

They should be upfront with customers and let them know that a lock is needed (purchased within the last 30 days and proof of purchase).

What is the definitive law on this? Does a Safe Affidavit form trump a gun lock purchase requirement?

cartman
01-21-2008, 12:26 PM
What store was this?

mk19
01-21-2008, 12:29 PM
the way i've been told from different stores, even if you have a safe at home you should have a cable lock with you on the day of pick up, i guess for transportation purposses. specially since most PPTs dont come with the lock.

Librarian
01-21-2008, 12:51 PM
I just got popped for two gun locks = $40.92 after sales tax. Even though one of the guns came with a factory lock still in an unopened package (both guns were private party transfer). I had filled out the Safe Affidavit form on the day of the DROS.

They would not let me have the guns without purchase of the locks. I even had a locking 4-gun SKB case with me.

This is the second time (two different stores) that have forced me to buy a gun lock.

They should be upfront with customers and let them know that a lock is needed (purchased within the last 30 days and proof of purchase).

What is the definitive law on this? Does a Safe Affidavit form trump a gun lock purchase requirement?
Around and around....

There are TWO sets of laws, California and Federal.

California will accept the safe affidavit.

Federal, by law, should accept such a thing, but there are no regs from BATFE implementing that. A rational FFL will not do things to annoy the BATFE.

Your SKB case also should have satisfied Federal law, but again, no regs.

Search for threads here, or on the web, for 18 USC 922(z). (AKA "CHILD SAFETY LOCK ACT OF 2005")

Shane916
01-21-2008, 12:58 PM
What store was this?

Also interested.

liketoshoot
01-21-2008, 1:11 PM
I just got popped for two gun locks = $40.92 after sales tax. Even though one of the guns came with a factory lock still in an unopened package (both guns were private party transfer). I had filled out the Safe Affidavit form on the day of the DROS.

They would not let me have the guns without purchase of the locks. I even had a locking 4-gun SKB case with me.

This is the second time (two different stores) that have forced me to buy a gun lock.

They should be upfront with customers and let them know that a lock is needed (purchased within the last 30 days and proof of purchase).

What is the definitive law on this? Does a Safe Affidavit form trump a gun lock purchase requirement?


I am sooooo glad I am friends with the owner of the store I get my guns, I have picked up PPT guns there and brought my own lock and never had a problem. Then again was this a "chain" store that you did the transfer, they may be out to make something off the deal.

thedrickel
01-21-2008, 1:20 PM
So you walked out, put the guns in the trunk, turned around, walked back in and returned the locks right?

RAD-CDPII
01-21-2008, 1:41 PM
So you walked out, put the guns in the trunk, turned around, walked back in and returned the locks right?

The last time I got stuck with this, they gave me a gifrt receipt for the lock which I immediatly returned and used it to purchase ammo. The other way to get around this is to go to the local PD and they will give you a lock, you just need something on their letterhead with the date for the lock.

dfletcher
01-21-2008, 1:50 PM
Isn't that alot to pay for 2 locks? I usually get the CA approved $9.00 version at any store. Sometimes they toss the lock in for free if the store is one of my regular stops.

Is producing a receipt of a gun lock purchase in the last 30 days still OK or has that gone away?

Considering that 90% of these locks are sitting about unused (I have about 90 or so in a bag) someone should buy them up and start a "CA Approved Gun Lock" store - all models, $5.99 or less.

.22guy
01-21-2008, 2:11 PM
So I am picking up 2 PPT handguns on the 29th, do I have to buy locks? Or can I bring them? I have a safe, and the guy had me sign all the safe affadavit stuff already.

Shane916
01-21-2008, 2:12 PM
So I am picking up 2 PPT handguns on the 29th, do I have to buy locks? Or can I bring them? I have a safe, and the guy had me sign all the safe affadavit stuff already.

Since he had you sign the affidavit already im 99.9% sure he won't require you to bring/purchase any gun locks.

Shane916
01-21-2008, 2:14 PM
Is producing a receipt of a gun lock purchase in the last 30 days still OK or has that gone away?


Still in effect. I just tell my customers to purchase them from Walmart and return them later :D

blkA4alb
01-21-2008, 2:17 PM
Since he had you sign the affidavit already im 99.9% sure he won't require you to bring/purchase any gun locks.

Did you read what the librarian posted? The affidavit works for the state but not feds.

MrTuffPaws
01-21-2008, 2:22 PM
I have many many locks myself. I need to get a display case for them or something.

Shane916
01-21-2008, 2:51 PM
Did you read what the librarian posted? The affidavit works for the state but not feds.

Yes I did. He was the .1% I was referring to. :D

Hopi
01-21-2008, 2:59 PM
So you walked out, put the guns in the trunk, turned around, walked back in and returned the locks right?

+1, i just look at it as a built-in ammo fund......

bulgron
01-21-2008, 3:04 PM
Hey, I lost the key for the one and only trigger lock that I've ever owned (I haven't bought a gun in over a decade, so I haven't been required to have a lock since the new laws went into effect). Since I think I should get a new lock, I guess that means I should buy a gun to go along with it, huh? :D

That Sig P229 is looking better and better all the time ....

Librarian
01-21-2008, 4:04 PM
Yes I did. He was the .1% I was referring to. :D
Just in case, he ought to bring them, and they had better be CA approved. But because the safe affidavit is in play, I think the 30-day rule on the locks is not. All the Feds really want is to be sure kids can't access guns - they don't care how old the locks are.

To prevent a nasty surprise, ought to call the FFL.

Davidwhitewolf
01-21-2008, 4:25 PM
About six years ago I picked up a couple fistfuls (more than twenty) of bright yellow "Project ChildSafe" gun locks from the Pleasant Hill PD, entirely free. Tossed a couple in the trunk or glovebox of each car and another in each of my gun cases under the foam, and I generally forget about 'em unless I run into an annoying FFL who requires one.

RP1911
01-21-2008, 4:43 PM
Sorry, just got back in.

I told the store about bringing the locks back in for a refund. They said not here, we won't take them back. I put the guns in the SKB case , locked it with a key without opening the lock packaging and walked out.

For the record it was not a chain store. It was an independent store.

pnkssbtz
01-21-2008, 4:48 PM
Sorry, just got back in.

I told the store about bringing the locks back in for a refund. They said not here, we won't take them back. I put the guns in the SKB case , locked it with a key without opening the lock packaging and walked out.

For the record it was not a chain store. It was an independent store.

What is their refund policy and why are the locks an exception?


At $20 a lock it looks like they were being jerks and trying to make a quick buck on some $5 locks.

Shane916
01-21-2008, 4:55 PM
Just in case, he ought to bring them, and they had better be CA approved. But because the safe affidavit is in play, I think the 30-day rule on the locks is not. All the Feds really want is to be sure kids can't access guns - they don't care how old the locks are.

To prevent a nasty surprise, ought to call the FFL.

Indeed good point.

Shane916
01-21-2008, 4:55 PM
Sorry, just got back in.

I told the store about bringing the locks back in for a refund. They said not here, we won't take them back. I put the guns in the SKB case , locked it with a key without opening the lock packaging and walked out.

For the record it was not a chain store. It was an independent store.

Sounds like Wild Sports if ya ask me :D

RP1911
01-21-2008, 5:10 PM
What is their refund policy and why are the locks an exception?


At $20 a lock it looks like they were being jerks and trying to make a quick buck on some $5 locks.


That's why the AAARGH in the title. I got taken for $26-$27. I have seen $4.99 CA approved locks before.

What get's me the most is that one gun came with an unopened package factory (Sig) lock in the case.

I didn't ask for their refund policy. I was pissed and wanted out of there.

Needless to say I won't be doing transfers there again.

RP1911
01-21-2008, 5:11 PM
Sounds like Wild Sports if ya ask me :D

Nope not Wild Sports. Not any of the shops in town either.

Shane916
01-21-2008, 5:13 PM
That's why the AAARGH in the title. I got taken for $26-$27. I have seen $4.99 CA approved locks before.

What get's me the most is that one gun came with an unopened package factory (Sig) lock in the case.

I didn't ask for their refund policy. I was pissed and wanted out of there.

Needless to say I won't be doing transfers there again.

Was it a Sig firearm that included a Sig lock?

Nope not Wild Sports. Not any of the shops in town either.


Intriguing. They actually pull the same little stunt.

RP1911
01-21-2008, 5:31 PM
Yes.

And the lock they sold me: DAC brand is a dead ringer for the one that was in the Sig case except it did not have DAC on the lock.

CowboyShooter
01-21-2008, 5:43 PM
What is their refund policy and why are the locks an exception?


At $20 a lock it looks like they were being jerks and trying to make a quick buck on some $5 locks.

I know Reed's in San Jose has a sign posted above their lock display that there are no returns on locks.

The ambiguity on the laws and how they are interpreted by the FFL's is frustrating. I also have a collection of $10 locks lying in my cleaning supply box due to the "within 30 days with a receipt" requirement. The last transfer I did with an out of state gun, I brought the new lock w/ me and started to open it to put it on the gun, but the FFL said "you don't need to lock it, I just need to be able to check the box that you had the lock with you."

The joys of CA....

SpeedTribe
01-21-2008, 5:44 PM
What store was this? Don't be shy about naming names. You are just stating facts.

I have done a few PPT over the past few months and have always included one of the many locks I had.

I would think that the lock that comes with the gun should be considered as new. You purchased a gun, and a lock, on the day the PPT was done and the transaction is being processed by the store/FFL. The lock is as new to you as any other would be...and does the reg even state that it has to be NEW or just "purchased within the past 30days."
I think shops that make you buy one of THEIR overpriced locks should be avoided. Who was it?

RP1911
01-21-2008, 6:35 PM
Here is the Federal law:

SEC. 5. CHILD SAFETY LOCKS.
(a) SHORT TITLE.—This section may be cited as the ‘‘Child
Safety Lock Act of 2005’’.
(b) PURPOSES.—The purposes of this section are—
(1) to promote the safe storage and use of handguns by
consumers;
(2) to prevent unauthorized persons from gaining access
to or use of a handgun, including children who may not be
in possession of a handgun; and
(3) to avoid hindering industry from supplying firearms
to law abiding citizens for all lawful purposes, including
hunting, self-defense, collecting, and competitive or recreational
shooting.
(c) FIREARMS SAFETY.—
(1) MANDATORY TRANSFER OF SECURE GUN STORAGE OR
SAFETY DEVICE.—Section 922 of title 18, United States Code,
is amended by inserting at the end the following:
‘‘(z) SECURE GUN STORAGE OR SAFETY DEVICE.—
‘‘(1) IN GENERAL.—Except as provided under paragraph
(2), it shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed
manufacturer, or licensed dealer to sell, deliver, or transfer
any handgun to any person other than any person licensed
under this chapter, unless the transferee is provided with a
secure gun storage or safety device (as defined in section
921(a)(34)) for that handgun.

Hummm...if I read the letter of the law, I should be getting one free instead of being forced to buy one.

and

18 USC 921(a)(34)

The term “secure gun storage or safety device” means—
(A) a device that, when installed on a firearm, is designed to prevent the firearm from being operated without first deactivating the device;
(B) a device incorporated into the design of the firearm that is designed to prevent the operation of the firearm by anyone not having access to the device; or
(C) a safe, gun safe, gun case, lock box, or other device that is designed to be or can be used to store a firearm and that is designed to be unlocked only by means of a key, a combination, or other similar means.

Blackflag
01-21-2008, 6:40 PM
The last gun I bought was before 2005. So there's a federal law now requiring a lock...

Can you just get a free lock from a police dept. and take that in to show when you pick up the gun? You don't have to buy a new one every time, do you?

This is bull****.

Librarian
01-21-2008, 6:48 PM
I think a reading of the law's 'provided with' phrasing merely means the buyer has to have one.

For example, since a safe (according to the law) satisfies the requirement, and most safes can properly contain more than one handgun, it is unreasonable to require the buyer to purchase a secure gun storage device with every handgun purchase -- what about that 22 cubic-foot Fort Knox I bought -last- month?

Therefore, is seems that so long as you have a lock with you when you leave the point of sale, is shouldn't matter if you bring it in with you or buy it there.

I wrote BATFE - jeez, I just looked, it was last June! - and they have not answered.The current FAQ for this topic recognizes the 18 USC 921(a)(34) provision for a safe or gun safe as ôsecure gun storage".

As written, the FAQ suggests that acquiring such secure gun storage must occur at the time of transfer.

Suppose I purchase a pistol, and at the same time I purchase a Fort Knox "Titan" model 7241, which has an internal volume of 45 cubic feet.

At a generous 1/4 cubic foot per handgun, that safe has a capacity for 180 handguns.

For a subsequent handgun purchase, must I purchase an additional instance of a ôsecure gun storage" device? Or, can I document secure storage for up to 180 handguns with the safe, and receive subsequent handguns without an additional lock, case or safe?

Thank you for your assistance in this matter.

RAD-CDPII
01-21-2008, 6:54 PM
The last gun I bought was before 2005. So there's a federal law now requiring a lock...

Can you just get a free lock from a police dept. and take that in to show when you pick up the gun? You don't have to buy a new one every time, do you?

This is bull****.

Yes, but you need to have the info about the lock and the date on the letterhead of the PD, then it's good. Remember, you need a reciept within 30 days.

Blackflag
01-21-2008, 6:59 PM
Yes, but you need to have the info about the lock and the date on the letterhead of the PD, then it's good. Remember, you need a reciept within 30 days.

So you have to get a new lock within 30 days of getting the new gun?

Even if you have an extra lock laying around, you can't use it to get the new gun?

RP1911
01-21-2008, 7:04 PM
Yes, but you need to have the info about the lock and the date on the letterhead of the PD, then it's good. Remember, you need a reciept within 30 days.

Can you please cite the code or regulations where it says you need a receipt within 30 days.

I'm not challenging your statement. just want to know where it says that in order to see if a safe will trump it or not.

TIA,

Solidmch
01-21-2008, 7:08 PM
I had a FFL tell me that I needed a reciept with the locks showing they were less than 30 days old.

OPPS should of read further, I will dupe myself:TFH:

Blackflag
01-21-2008, 7:17 PM
If I had known they were going to do this stupid ****, I would have started a gun lock company... This is really moronic.

RP1911
01-21-2008, 7:21 PM
It has nothing to do with the Feds.

California Code of Regulations

12088.1. (a) All firearms sold or transferred in this state by a licensed firearms dealer, including private transfers through a dealer, and all firearms manufactured in this state, shall include or be accompanied by a firearms safety device that is listed on the Department of Justice's roster of approved firearms safety devices and that is identified as appropriate for that firearm by reference to either the manufacturer and model of the firearm, or to the physical characteristics of the firearm that match those listed on the roster for use with the device.
(b) All firearms sold or transferred in this state by a licensed firearms dealer, including private transfers through a dealer, and all firearms manufactured in this state shall be accompanied with warning language or labels as described in Section 12088.3.
(c)(1) All long-gun safes commercially sold or transferred in this state, or manufactured in this state for sale in this state, that do not meet the standards for gun safes adopted pursuant to Section 12088.2 shall be accompanied by the following warning:
"WARNING: This gun safe does not meet the safety standards for gun safes specified in California Penal Code Section 12088.2. It does not satisfy the requirements of Penal Code Section 12088.1, which mandates that all firearms sold in California be accompanied by a firearms safety device or proof of ownership, as required by law, of a gun safe that meets the Section 12088.2 minimum safety standards developed by the California Attorney General."

(2) This warning shall be conspicuously displayed in its entirety on the principal display panel of the gun safe's package, on any descriptive materials that accompany the gun safe, and on a label affixed to the front of the gun safe.
(3) This warning shall be displayed in both English and Spanish in conspicuous and legible type in contrast by typography, layout, or color with other printed matter on the package or descriptive materials in a manner consistent with Part 1500.121 of Title 16 of the Code of Federal Regulations, or successor regulations thereto.
(d) The sale or transfer of a firearm shall be exempt from subdivision (a) if both of the following apply:
(1) The purchaser or transferee owns a gun safe that meets the standards set forth in Section 12088.2. (Safe Affidavit) Gun safes shall not be required to be tested, and therefore may meet the standards without appearing on the Department of Justice roster.
(2) The purchaser or transferee presents an original receipt for purchase of the gun safe, or other proof of purchase or ownership of the gun safe as authorized by the Attorney General, to the firearms dealer. The dealer shall maintain a copy of this receipt or proof of purchase with the dealers' record of sales of firearms.
(e) The sale or transfer of a firearm shall be exempt from subdivision (a) if all of the following apply:
(1) The purchaser or transferee purchases an approved safety device no more than 30 days prior to the day the purchaser or transferee takes possession of the firearm.
(2) The purchaser or transferee presents the approved safety device to the firearms dealer when picking up the firearm.
(3) The purchaser or transferee presents an original receipt to the firearms dealer which shows the date of purchase, the name, and the model number of the safety device.
(4) The firearms dealer verifies that the requirements in (1) to (3), inclusive, have been satisfied.
(5) The firearms dealer maintains a copy of the receipt along with the dealers' record of sales of firearms.

Italics mine

RAD-CDPII
01-21-2008, 7:42 PM
Can you please cite the code or regulations where it says you need a receipt within 30 days.

I'm not challenging your statement. just want to know where it says that in order to see if a safe will trump it or not.

TIA,

It looks like you found the info yourself, and in addition, that's what the FFL's require. Most PD's will give you a CA Approved Gun Lock, but you do need the proof on their letterhead with the date, and that will work. As stated, this is a money making proposition for them on PPT's as they do not get that much on the deal to start with and they are required to do all the paperwork. I have a sh** load of those locks sitting in a box collecting dust, but they do not work on a PPT.

RP1911
01-21-2008, 7:57 PM
The way I see it from looking at both the Federal regulations and the California regulations I posted above:

Having a safe and signing the Safe Affidavit form satisfies the need for a gun safety lock in California.

Bringing in a gun case that can be unlocked and opened by use of a key, satisfies the federal regulations.

Since I had filled out and signed the Safe Affidavit form and brought in a lockable gun case with me to the shop to pick up the two handguns, I shouldn't have been required to buy new gun locks.

Blackflag
01-21-2008, 8:02 PM
The way I see it from looking at both the Federal regulations and the California regulations I posted above:

Having a safe and signing the Safe Affidavit form satisfies the need for a gun safety lock in California.

Bringing in a gun case that can be unlocked and opened by use of a key, satisfies the federal regulations.

Since I had filled out and signed the Safe Affidavit form and brought in a lockable gun case with me to the shop to pick up the two handguns, I shouldn't have been required to buy new gun locks.

You were had. You should tell us what place this was.

RP1911
01-21-2008, 8:13 PM
You were had. You should tell us what place this was.

I just want to make sure I am not missing anything or overlooking another regulation before I post the shop's name.

RAD-CDPII
01-21-2008, 8:22 PM
The way I see it from looking at both the Federal regulations and the California regulations I posted above:

Having a safe and signing the Safe Affidavit form satisfies the need for a gun safety lock in California.

Bringing in a gun case that can be unlocked and opened by use of a key, satisfies the federal regulations.

Since I had filled out and signed the Safe Affidavit form and brought in a lockable gun case with me to the shop to pick up the two handguns, I shouldn't have been required to buy new gun locks.

From you post " (2) The purchaser or transferee presents an original receipt for purchase of the gun safe, or other proof of purchase or ownership of the gun safe as authorized by the Attorney General, to the firearms dealer. "

Did you have the original receipt or other proof of purchase or ownership that he could copy and keep on file? If so, he was wrong and I would show him the law, if not, the law is on his side. Just get the lock from the PD and their letterhead with the info, and they can not say a thing. It sucks, it's a rip off, but they can force you to do it.

Librarian
01-21-2008, 8:25 PM
The way I see it from looking at both the Federal regulations and the California regulations I posted above:

Having a safe and signing the Safe Affidavit form satisfies the need for a gun safety lock in California.

Bringing in a gun case that can be unlocked and opened by use of a key, satisfies the federal regulations.

Since I had filled out and signed the Safe Affidavit form and brought in a lockable gun case with me to the shop to pick up the two handguns, I shouldn't have been required to buy new gun locks.Absolutely - that's the way it ought to work.

Now, get BATFE to issue a regulation that covers all of 18 USC 921(a)(34). Failing that, the only guidance is the April, 2006 letter (http://searchjustice.usdoj.gov/search?q=cache:uNcBgzAh7S4J:www.atf.gov/firearms/042106openletter-safetylocks.pdf+CHILD+SAFETY+LOCK+ACT+OF+2005&access=p&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&client=atf&site=default_collection&proxystylesheet=atf&oe=UTF-8) to FFLs :April 21, 2006

OPEN LETTER TO FEDERAL FIREARMS LICENSEES
CHILD SAFETY LOCK ACT OF 2005

This serves to notify you that Public Law 109-92 (119 Stat. 2095), the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act, was enacted October 26, 2005. Section 5 of Public Law 109-92, cited as the Child Safety Lock Act of 2005 (CSLA), amended the Gun Control Act by adding Section 922(z) to 18 U.S.C. This new section makes it generally unlawful for "any licensed importer, manufacturer, or dealer to sell, deliver, or transfer any handgun to any person, other than another licensee, unless the transferee (buyer) is provided with a secure gun storage or safety device for that handgun." The statute provides that it becomes effective April 24,2006. ATF has prepared the regulation that will implement this statute. At this time, the regulation is pending approval by the Department of Justice and the Office of Management and Budget. The review process most likely will take several more months. Once the regulation is approved, ATF will publish an Interim Rule in the Federal Register regarding the new law. While the Interim Rule will not be published by April 24th, the requirement to "provide" a safety device with the transfer of any handgun is mandated beginning on that date pursuant to 18 U.S.C. 922(z). Accordingly, licensees must make the necessary arrangements to provide secure gun storage or safety devices with the transfer of handguns from the April 24th effective date.

As enacted, the law does not require safety devices to be probided where the handgun transfer is between FFLs. The law also provides for additional exceptions. ATF will issue and Open Letter once the Interim Rule is published. "Questions and Answers" regarding the CSLA will be posted on our Web site at http://www.atf.gov clarifying certain points of the legislation. We look forward to industry members' questions and comments. For additional information...

Audrey Stucko
Deputy Assistant Director
Enforcement Prorams and Services"
That regulation is still pending. A FFL who acts without BATFE 'blessing' may be entirely justified, but will not relish having to prove that to the inspectors.

RP1911
01-21-2008, 8:38 PM
Librarian:

Thanks for posting the letter.

If we go back to 922(z) and read the definition of the 'gun safety device', I still stand by my analysis that a lockable gun-case, satisfies the requirements of 922(z) and a competent FFL should be able to defend the transfer.

Librarian
01-21-2008, 8:53 PM
Librarian:

Thanks for posting the letter.

If we go back to 922(z) and read the definition of the 'gun safety device', I still stand by my analysis that a lockable gun-case, satisfies the requirements of 922(z) and a competent FFL should be able to defend the transfer.I fully agree.

Now, convince a FFL it's right, and worth his/her time to prepare for, and you're good to go.

But risking what a dealer might perceive as jail time and loss of license probably doesn't seem worth the $5-$10 lock. Not being a dealer, I can't say what I would do for certain, but throwing in a lock for good will would go a long way toward soothing ruffled feathers.

Feds really crossed us up with that law, and BATFE sitting on its hands for a couple of years about the regs has not been a positive contribution.

RP1911
01-21-2008, 8:59 PM
I agree.

Fear overshadows the law.

Sgt Raven
01-21-2008, 9:04 PM
If you think a FFL is going to pull this on you, go to WalMart and buy a approved gun lock, pick your firearm up showing your receipt, and return the lock to WalMart for a refund. ;) :rolleyes: :p

RP1911
01-21-2008, 10:37 PM
From you post " (2) The purchaser or transferee presents an original receipt for purchase of the gun safe, or other proof of purchase or ownership of the gun safe as authorized by the Attorney General, to the firearms dealer. "

Did you have the original receipt or other proof of purchase or ownership that he could copy and keep on file? If so, he was wrong and I would show him the law, if not, the law is on his side. Just get the lock from the PD and their letterhead with the info, and they can not say a thing. It sucks, it's a rip off, but they can force you to do it.

Filling out the Safe Affidavit form takes care of this:

http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/gsaff.pdf

If one checks off #2 and then initials the box below the signature line, then the requirements are met.

TKM
01-22-2008, 3:06 AM
Does a C&R FFL count as "another licensee"?

Dont Tread on Me
01-22-2008, 3:52 AM
If all you need is a receipt that you purchased a lock in the last 30 days, I'll sell you one for 1 cent right after you've sold me one for the same price.

We've got to think outside the box on this one.

ldivinag
01-22-2008, 11:32 AM
If you think a FFL is going to pull this on you, go to WalMart and buy a approved gun lock, pick your firearm up showing your receipt, and return the lock to WalMart for a refund. ;) :rolleyes: :p


actually, get 2 receipts from walmart in case the FFL wants to KEEP the receipt...

had that once happen to me...

RP1911
01-22-2008, 11:39 AM
It was Barnwood Arms in Ripon. About an hour south of Sacramento.

That $5.71 lock that is available elsewhere was sold to me for $18.99 each.

Lesson learned on my end.

Librarian
01-22-2008, 11:44 AM
Does a C&R FFL count as "another licensee"?

For C&R weapons, I believe it does.

SVT-40
02-19-2008, 10:22 PM
the whole problem lies with the difference between the Federal requirements and the State requirements.

The Federal law requires a lock for each hand gun on the day of delivery. California requires either a safe affidavit (for long guns) or show proof of purchasing a Calif approved lock within 30 days of the delivery.

The problem for the FFL is how do you prove you complied with all these requirements?


The following two methods were approved of by both the DOJ as well as the ATF at a recent seminar.


1. You can show compliance by having a copy of the receipt for the lock you sold the purchaser on the DAY of delivery, or Making a copy of the receipt for a Calif approved lock purchased THAT DAY from another retailer (I.E. Wal Mart for $5.00) The reason the receipt must be dated that day is so you can show proof of compliance with the Federal law.

2. If the handgun comes with an approved lock you can type "Comes with Calif approved lock" on the computer when completing the original DROS form in the misc box at the bottom of the form. When the DROS form is printed you have proof of the handgun having an Calif approved lock and proof the handgun was delivered with the approved lock.

The purchaser must remember it's the FFL who will suffer if the requirements are not followed. Thats why some are making up their own requirements which are more restrictive than both Federal law as well as Calif law.

Probably a few FFL's are also making a good profit marking up locks 200-300%. Thats not good business practices IMHO, And I would not shop where this type activity occurs.

tenpercentfirearms
02-19-2008, 11:23 PM
Here is the deal.

For handguns: Federal law requires that I, the gun dealer, provide you with a secure gun storage or safety device with your handgun. So for handguns, you cannot bring in a safe affidavit or even your own gun case. I have to provide it and it does not say you can provide it.

Further even if you can convince a dealer that he should violate state law in allowing you to bring in a FSD to use for a gun transaction without a receipt showing purchase withing 30 days, that wouldn't be providing you with secure gun storage or a safety device and even if it did, it would have to be a CA approved FSD as I am prohibited by law from selling non approved FSDs in this state.

So lets sum it up. You must be provided a CA approved FSD or gun safe on the day of your handgun pick up by the gun dealer delivering the gun. Period. That is it. You can argue it all you want, but it would be foolish to argue a gun dealer should take a risk on doing something wrong and lose his business over a $7 gun lock.

And that is why I won't argue with you in my store. I took the initiative to procure 400 free Project Childsafe gun locks from the Taft Police Department. I literally give locks away or "provide" them with the majority of my sales. Now note when the Federal law says provide, that doesn't mean I have to provide them for free. I can provide them for a fee. I just choose to give away my free locks instead of making pure profit.

What happens when I run out of free locks? I will start a trade in program. You cannot use a lock you brought in for your pick up unless you provide me with a receipt with a date within 30 days and the make and model number of the lock. However, it does not prohibit me from accepting a lock from you out the kindness of your own heart. It also doesn't prohibit me from giving you a lock. So you bring in one of the many different types of gun locks in your gun lock box in your garage that is a CA approved FSD. I take your DAC CL 551. I thank you for your donation.

I then provide you with a Pro-Lok G710-CLKD or Shot Lock 10000PTR-4 for your gun taking note not to use the lock you just gave me. The next guy that comes in brings in one of his freebe Project Childsafe 107 China locks and I give him a DAC CL 551, quite possibly your donation.

Again, screw this making money on gun locks. I am not going to piss my customers off like the gun grabbers want. I am going to follow the law and give you a gun lock. Within the confines of the law, you are going to give me a gun lock. As long as the gun lock you bring in is not used for your transaction, we are not breaking any laws, no 30 day receipt is required, and I just give you a lock.

Long guns: The same rules as handguns except you can also use an affidavit for an approved gun safe or lock box instead of an approved FSD.

Guys stop using gun dealers who play the lock game at your expense. Use gun dealers who play the lock game in your favor.

383green
02-19-2008, 11:41 PM
We're talking about those little cheesemaster plastic-covered cable padlocks, right? So, what you're saying is, "buy a pistol, get a free slungshot", right? :D

But seriously, it's been a while since I bought a pistol (though I've bought rifles more recently... yesterday, in fact! :p). I don't recall doing anything but the safe affidavit. How long has that federal requirement been in effect? I have some of those cable locks, but I think there were all freebies included by the manufacturer with new guns. I don't remember paying for one.