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coledude
09-23-2013, 8:10 PM
I am totally pissed.. Here is what happened. I was in a car accident and the tow truck driver was doing an inventory of my truck when he came across my wife's 380 simi in the center console. He walked over to the police officer writing up the accident report and said "He has a gun in his truck" and that was it.. It was loaded so I was arrested and hauled off. Now I know she had a gun for protection because she travels to a lot of VA hospitals doing volunteer work and also out of state for personal work alone and crosses a lot of deserts by herself at night so yeah, they had me dead to rights and I admit it. Now here is the kicker, the judge gave me 90 days in jail, 3 years probation and a fricken 10 year gun ban! I have never been convicted of anything other than a brandishing charge (a knife not a gun) that happened back in 1990. Yes, that is right almost 25 years ago! No acts of domestic violence or felony convictions of any kind. I think I got screwed and I cannot find any case law that supports a 10 year ban for this. Has anyone seen this before? Is it because I was in a Los Angeles City court? I am 49 years old so this would pretty much mean I have lost my 2nd amendment right until I am almost 60! WHAT IN THE HELL IS GOING ON HERE!!!! :facepalm:

Shasta Frog
09-23-2013, 8:18 PM
Well since you already lost your 2a rights you might as well just keep carrying concealed. Really what are the chances of being caught again and what are they going to do, Take away your 2a rights?;)

coledude
09-23-2013, 8:23 PM
Well since you already lost your 2a rights you might as well just keep carrying concealed. Really what are the chances of being caught again and what are they going to do, Take away your 2a rights?;)

What concerns me is the fact that they can arrest me for just being at the range if I am holding anything.. Hell I might as well be holding my Johnson!!!

DFence
09-23-2013, 8:33 PM
So you're pissed that you broke the law and got caught?

Crimes come with penalties. If more people paid attention to the penalty maybe they would reconsider their actions.

No remorse from me bud.

voiceofreason
09-23-2013, 8:42 PM
Feel bad for you.

In many other states, it wouldn't even have been considered a crime.

rkt88edmo
09-23-2013, 8:47 PM
ouch, have a lawyer or public defender?

Ninask
09-23-2013, 8:51 PM
The Constitution clearly gives you the right to BEAR arms,
they don't work unless they're loaded, local laws be damned,
the State and feds are usurping your rights in the first place,
secondly they have suspended your rights-
at least in public view,
I support your right to carry firearms,
you have no guilt in this matter,
their law is NO law
N

HOGLEG
09-23-2013, 8:53 PM
Here's some reading for you.

http://www.shouselaw.com/12025.html#2.1

http://www.gunlaw.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=15&Itemid=97

Not sure of your priors, or the charges against you. Sounds like you were charged with a felony because you were carrying a concealed weapon that was not registered to you or your prior brandishing conviction bumped up your charge,

Here's some reading for you.

I believe one defense for one of the charges is prior knowledge. If your wife put the gun there and you didn't know about it the you could have used that as a defense,

I'm not a lawyer, but that appears to be what I got out of the above link.

I'm glad you posted. Your pain may keep others from following in your footsteps.

It's not that difficult to legally transport a firearm in CA.

You should probably contact a firearms lawyer to see if anything can be done.

Darryl Licht
09-23-2013, 9:08 PM
Did your wife get her gun back?

L.A. is very anti gun

Rickrock1
09-23-2013, 9:09 PM
Well since you already lost your 2a rights you might as well just keep carrying concealed. Really what are the chances of being caught again and what are they going to do, Take away your 2a rights?;)


Don't worry he's joking lol ^^

bodger
09-23-2013, 9:16 PM
Did your wife have that loaded gun in the console when she went to the VA? If so, that could have ended badly as well. The VA I go to has many signs that state no firearms on the property, not even locked up. And you give your consent to a warrantless search of your vehicle simply by being on federal property if I am not mistaken.

Sorry you got popped, and Los Angeles is one of the worst places for it to happen.

SVT-40
09-23-2013, 9:38 PM
What was the specific section of the penal code were convicted of?

it should be something similar to 25850 (C) (5) California Penal code.

It may not be that specific section, but it will be listed in that manner...

Stanze
09-23-2013, 10:00 PM
If you got convicted of a felony; you're screwed forever unless you get a presidential pardon.

10 year ban in CA isn't as bad as convicted felon.

DFence
09-23-2013, 11:10 PM
Seems like a troll post anyways. Post #4 and not a single response to anyone's comments.

Shasta Frog
09-23-2013, 11:27 PM
What concerns me is the fact that they can arrest me for just being at the range if I am holding anything.. Hell I might as well be holding my Johnson!!!

Which one is shooting blanks? :rofl2: J/K

coledude
09-26-2013, 6:08 PM
Here's some reading for you.

http://www.shouselaw.com/12025.html#2.1

http://www.gunlaw.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=15&Itemid=97

Not sure of your priors, or the charges against you. Sounds like you were charged with a felony because you were carrying a concealed weapon that was not registered to you or your prior brandishing conviction bumped up your charge,

Here's some reading for you.

I believe one defense for one of the charges is prior knowledge. If your wife put the gun there and you didn't know about it the you could have used that as a defense,

I'm not a lawyer, but that appears to be what I got out of the above link.

I'm glad you posted. Your pain may keep others from following in your footsteps.

It's not that difficult to legally transport a firearm in CA.

You should probably contact a firearms lawyer to see if anything can be done.

I was convicted of a misdemeanor 25850 of the PC
As I mentioned before my only previous conviction was a brandishing charge (a knife) when I was a kid 25 years ago. No felony convictions for anything EVER. No conviction related to any gun charge ever, no violence against anyone EVER. It was suppose to be a 3 year not a 10 year based on the charge and probation but during sentencing she decided to check off 10 years box. Only upside was the 3 months she gave me in county ended up being only 3 days and they kicked me out. Our courts are out of control!

coledude
09-26-2013, 6:10 PM
So you're pissed that you broke the law and got caught?

Crimes come with penalties. If more people paid attention to the penalty maybe they would reconsider their actions.

No remorse from me bud.

Not looking for any remorse from you so get over yourself already..

ExtremeX
09-26-2013, 6:20 PM
Do yourself a favor and consult with an attorney who specializes in firearms law.

coledude
09-26-2013, 6:27 PM
ouch, have a lawyer or public defender?

Had a lawyer but he was blindsided too. We decided not to challenge her until I finished my 90 day sentence so she would not try and give me a year. We are going to challenge the 10 as it's not within guidelines for a non-violent 1st gun offense. If this ban does not apply to other states I will up and move before submitting to this insane 10 year ban. They are telling me I have to get rid of a 20 year gun collection!!! I just don't get it, I am a vet with an honorable discharge, work as a I.T. director for a EMR company, never miss paying a single bill or mortgage payment, did not walk away from my loan obligation even when I was upside down on my home like a lot of others did and yet I am treated like a gang member because some tow truck drive was digging through my truck and found a .380 that was loaded. Just amazing..
To the user Dfence I would like to address a statement you made. You said "Crimes come with penalties" well if you think what they are doing to me is the correct penalty for what I was charged with then you must be some kind of pro government psycho gun control propaganda machine!!!

coledude
09-26-2013, 6:29 PM
Do yourself a favor and consult with an attorney who specializes in firearms law.

You are sooo right ! I am getting on it!!

coledude
09-26-2013, 6:36 PM
Seems like a troll post anyways. Post #4 and not a single response to anyone's comments.

Um, I have a job and cannot stay up until 11:00 pm on a forum. Got to pay the bills.. I am not a "troll" unless that new is slang for a working man..

Besides, sometimes it's best to stop what you are doing and calm down (I should probably do that now) and I do not want to lash out. I am just very frustrated.

Hoop
09-26-2013, 6:37 PM
Only upside was the 3 months she gave me in county ended up being only 3 days and they kicked me out. Our courts are out of control!

Yeah that sounds typical.

Our justice system is just welfare for lawyers and cops, most people don't care until something bad happens and they wind up stuck in it.

Get a lawyer who understands firearms laws and how to knock down a conviction, also you should be able to "give" all your weapons to your wife and they can remain in your home locked up.

kcjr1125
09-26-2013, 6:44 PM
So you're pissed that you broke the law and got caught?

Crimes come with penalties. If more people paid attention to the penalty maybe they would reconsider their actions.

No remorse from me bud.

Truth.

Ninety
09-26-2013, 6:47 PM
The Constitution clearly gives you the right to BEAR arms,
they don't work unless they're loaded, local laws be damned,
the State and feds are usurping your rights in the first place,
secondly they have suspended your rights-
at least in public view,
I support your right to carry firearms,
you have no guilt in this matter,
their law is NO law


this^

Did your wife have that loaded gun in the console when she went to the VA? If so, that could have ended badly as well. The VA I go to has many signs that state no firearms on the property, not even locked up. And you give your consent to a warrantless search of your vehicle simply by being on federal property if I am not mistaken.

Sorry you got popped, and Los Angeles is one of the worst places for it to happen.

You sure about the VA thing? Didn't the supreme court just rule against the law banning firearms at the post office?? Wouldn't it also apply to the VA?


OP

Just move. Take you guns and your money with you.. CA just made it easy for you to decide where you don't want to retire.

ENVYGREEN
09-26-2013, 7:07 PM
move. This 10 years is only in CA

GrizzlyGuy
09-26-2013, 7:32 PM
I was convicted of a misdemeanor 25850 of the PC
As I mentioned before my only previous conviction was a brandishing charge (a knife) when I was a kid 25 years ago. No felony convictions for anything EVER. No conviction related to any gun charge ever, no violence against anyone EVER. It was suppose to be a 3 year not a 10 year based on the charge and probation but during sentencing she decided to check off 10 years box. Only upside was the 3 months she gave me in county ended up being only 3 days and they kicked me out. Our courts are out of control!

You weren't convicted of carrying a concealed firearm, you were convicted of carrying a loaded firearm (25850 PC (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/25850.html)).

Regardless, the judge screwed up. A misdemeanor conviction for 25850 does not result in a 10-year prohibition under current law. See the second page here (http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/prohibcatmisd.pdf), 25850 isn't listed. You need a good lawyer to help you contest this.

Colt-45
09-26-2013, 7:42 PM
What a pansy *** tow truck driver, making a big deal out of nothing "OMG A GUN" :willy_nilly: :rolleyes:. In other states this is not a crime but since you're in CA you are automatically a terrible, terrible man. I would have just told the owner of vehicle, hey don't forget your gun.

Consult a FIREARMS lawyer not just any lawyer and CHALLANGE the hell out of this thing. ****ty situation to be in, BEST OF LUCK!

sd_shooter
09-26-2013, 9:06 PM
So you're pissed that you broke the law and got caught?

Crimes come with penalties. If more people paid attention to the penalty maybe they would reconsider their actions.

No remorse from me bud.

Truth.

Victimless crime, guys. There should be a law against most of the CA anti-gun laws.

Wait, there is: "Shall not be infringed"

glockman19
09-26-2013, 9:12 PM
I am totally pissed.. Here is what happened. I was in a car accident and the tow truck driver was doing an inventory of my truck when he came across my wife's 380 simi in the center console. He walked over to the police officer writing up the accident report and said "He has a gun in his truck" and that was it.. It was loaded so I was arrested and hauled off. Now I know she had a gun for protection because she travels to a lot of VA hospitals doing volunteer work and also out of state for personal work alone and crosses a lot of deserts by herself at night so yeah, they had me dead to rights and I admit it. Now here is the kicker, the judge gave me 90 days in jail, 3 years probation and a fricken 10 year gun ban! I have never been convicted of anything other than a brandishing charge (a knife not a gun) that happened back in 1990. Yes, that is right almost 25 years ago! No acts of domestic violence or felony convictions of any kind. I think I got screwed and I cannot find any case law that supports a 10 year ban for this. Has anyone seen this before? Is it because I was in a Los Angeles City court? I am 49 years old so this would pretty much mean I have lost my 2nd amendment right until I am almost 60! WHAT IN THE HELL IS GOING ON HERE!!!! :facepalm:

YES it was because you were in LA city or County. The DA or CA will ALWAYS go for a prohibiting charge for firearms owners.

mofojoe
09-26-2013, 9:19 PM
I'm wondering why you let the tow truck driver go thru your stuff???
Hook it up and go to the body shop. Keep your nose out of my stuff. This sounds funny to me

RickD427
09-26-2013, 9:28 PM
I'm wondering why you let the tow truck driver go thru your stuff???
Hook it up and go to the body shop. Keep your nose out of my stuff. This sounds funny to me

If the vehicle was being impounded, or stored, at the direction of a law enforcement officer, as is common at accident scenes, nearly all agencies require that an "Inventory Search" be done of the vehicle.

There is a substantial body of case law that allows for "Inventory Searches." The idea is that when the officer, and tow company, become responsible for the vehicle, they're entitled to know what they're assuming responsibility for. Too many folks have claimed that their $5,000 Rolex watch was missing from the glove box of their junker car after it was impounded.

DFence
09-26-2013, 10:24 PM
Victimless crime, guys. There should be a law against most of the CA anti-gun laws.

Wait, there is: "Shall not be infringed"

Yeah....so you carry loaded gun with you wherever you go right? And if you get caught your defense is going to be "shall not be infringed"?

Enjoy your stent in jail with that defense.

Like the law or not, it's the law and crimes come with punishments. There are a lot of laws I may not agree with, but I'm not risking my freedom over it.

DFence
09-26-2013, 10:32 PM
Um, I have a job and cannot stay up until 11:00 pm on a forum. Got to pay the bills.. I am not a "troll" unless that new is slang for a working man..

Besides, sometimes it's best to stop what you are doing and calm down (I should probably do that now) and I do not want to lash out. I am just very frustrated.

No a troll post means your story is likely fake and you posted it to get a rise out of people.

If in fact is true, you may want to reconsider posting details of your case on a public forum. "Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law" ring a bell?

Jess B. Guy
09-26-2013, 10:51 PM
GrizzlyGuy is right. Not a 10 year ban.

sd_shooter
09-27-2013, 6:02 AM
Yeah....so you carry loaded gun with you wherever you go right? And if you get caught your defense is going to be "shall not be infringed"?

Enjoy your stent in jail with that defense.

Like the law or not, it's the law and crimes come with punishments. There are a lot of laws I may not agree with, but I'm not risking my freedom over it.

I'm not doing anything, the OP is.

I'm just surprised that some calgunners are so black & white about "the law." Zero sympathy, just "You deserve it dude!" Consider some of the upcoming laws, like the one requiring reporting after a theft. Would you like to labeled a criminal after someone else steals your gun? Or all the existing GFSZ laws. Would you like to be labeled a criminal just because you blew a tire while driving past a school on your way to the range? Would you like to be labeled a criminal because a girlfriend alleges that you shoved her? Existing law.

I hope you're never on a jury.

DFence
09-27-2013, 10:07 AM
I'm not doing anything, the OP is.

I'm just surprised that some calgunners are so black & white about "the law." Zero sympathy, just "You deserve it dude!" Consider some of the upcoming laws, like the one requiring reporting after a theft. Would you like to labeled a criminal after someone else steals your gun? Or all the existing GFSZ laws. Would you like to be labeled a criminal just because you blew a tire while driving past a school on your way to the range? Would you like to be labeled a criminal because a girlfriend alleges that you shoved her? Existing law.

I hope you're never on a jury.

Like a said, there are a lot I don't necessarily agree with, but some you can avoid. One being transporting a loaded firearm.

Curious if the OP would still have transported the loaded weapon had he known the offense could result in 90 days in jail and a 10yr ban.

I can see why you wouldn't want people on a jury that would convict people of the crime they admittedly did. That would be just crazy! :rolleyes:

edgerly779
09-27-2013, 10:21 AM
Screwed the pooch. Handgun can only be in center console if in locked container and ammo/mag can not be in handgun, but can be in case. You and your wife should have known this only about a hundred posts on this subject.

Packy14
09-27-2013, 10:34 AM
you need a gun lawyer, not these internet bozo's and their opinions.

A and O
09-27-2013, 11:06 AM
Like a said, there are a lot I don't necessarily agree with, but some you can avoid. One being transporting a loaded firearm.

Curious if the OP would still have transported the loaded weapon had he known the offense could result in 90 days in jail and a 10yr ban.

I can see why you wouldn't want people on a jury that would convict people of the crime they admittedly did. That would be just crazy! :rolleyes:

No Sir, A TRUE JUROR would know about Jury Nullification

Please, learn about what is happening via Colorable law and what you can do about it.

See: Fully Informed Jury

The OP is innocent, his RIGHTS HAVE BEEN VIOLATED

coledude
09-27-2013, 11:54 AM
I'm not doing anything, the OP is.

I'm just surprised that some calgunners are so black & white about "the law." Zero sympathy, just "You deserve it dude!" Consider some of the upcoming laws, like the one requiring reporting after a theft. Would you like to labeled a criminal after someone else steals your gun? Or all the existing GFSZ laws. Would you like to be labeled a criminal just because you blew a tire while driving past a school on your way to the range? Would you like to be labeled a criminal because a girlfriend alleges that you shoved her? Existing law.

I hope you're never on a jury.

Thank you, what a very good point!
On another note, for all the f-tards that are on the 'You deserve it" bandwagon I never said I was not guilty of something, all I was saying is that I did NOT deserve a 10 year arms ban over it. When a law is incorrectly applied and our 2A rights are trampled on because a group of politicians have a political agenda it hurts EVERYONE, even you self righteous blowhards who do not even know this actually affects you too. This is a sign of things to come but I guess it’s too hard for you to see from your view from up there.

coledude
09-27-2013, 12:05 PM
Like a said, there are a lot I don't necessarily agree with, but some you can avoid. One being transporting a loaded firearm.

Curious if the OP would still have transported the loaded weapon had he known the offense could result in 90 days in jail and a 10yr ban.

I can see why you wouldn't want people on a jury that would convict people of the crime they admittedly did. That would be just crazy! :rolleyes:

Are you for real? My God you have crazy Lib written all over you. Does it say anywhere in my post that I knew my wife left left it in the car? What in the hell is wrong with you? Did you read my posts? Try to follow the ball here..
Good lord.. It must be nice to walk on water.. :facepalm:

onethumb
09-27-2013, 12:42 PM
They are telling me I have to get rid of a 20 year gun collection!!! I just don't get it, I am a vet with an honorable discharge, work as a I.T. director for a EMR company, never miss paying a single bill or mortgage payment, did not walk away from my loan obligation even when I was upside down on my home like a lot of others did and yet I am treated like a gang member because some tow truck drive was digging through my truck and found a .380 that was loaded. Just amazing..

Since it seems both you and your wife have job skills that will relocate well, I would suggest considering a more gun-friendly state like Arizona, Utah or Oregon. Cheaper cost of living also. Real estate prices are recovering, and interest rates are still low. Deny the thugs in Sacramento your tax dollars.

Financially, this state only has a couple decades left before it has a major financial problem. Don't plan on retiring here. Don't be one of the last turnips they are trying to suck blood out of. Don't get caught in the riots once the free money runs out for the masses.

Note--since you said you're on probation, you'll need to jump through a few legal hoops. Nothing major, AFIK. Or wait for the 3 years to be up, and use the time to make a solid financial plan to get out of CA.

DFence
09-27-2013, 12:55 PM
Are you for real? My God you have crazy Lib written all over you. Does it say anywhere in my post that I knew my wife left left it in the car? What in the hell is wrong with you? Did you read my posts? Try to follow the ball here..
Good lord.. It must be nice to walk on water.. :facepalm:

Acutally this is what you said:

"Now I know she had a gun for protection because she travels to a lot of VA hospitals doing volunteer work and also out of state for personal work alone and crosses a lot of deserts by herself at night so yeah, they had me dead to rights and I admit it."

I for one am not glad you got in trouble, but I can assure you, I have contributed more to the firearms community then you can imagine sir.

On the upside, I guess you can be glad you got caught with it and not your girlfriend.

On the downside, since she left it in the car loaded, she may also be at risk for criminal charges for improper storage of a firearm. Not to mention thats a pretty irresponsible move of her behalf.

My advice, contact a good firearms defense lawyer, quit posting details and admitting guilt on a public forum, and learn from the situation.

Hope things turn around for you. Best of luck.

GLOCKINGRAT
09-27-2013, 12:59 PM
why do you drive around with a loaded weapon? i understand your wife goes driving around and into places which are not the safest but why do it with a loaded firearm? It is not hard to load a firearm when it is needed.

ChrisC
09-27-2013, 1:16 PM
It must be nice to walk on water.. :facepalm:

Wish I could walk on water, it would make for some real fun fishing!:p

Good luck OP, I hope a lawyer can set things straight.

Bruce
09-27-2013, 3:10 PM
No Sir, A TRUE JUROR would know about Jury Nullification


You do realize that juries are made up of twelve people too stupid to get out of jury duty don't you? :rolleyes:

Baboosh
09-27-2013, 3:17 PM
10 years only? Should have been lifetime since you are not capable of being safe or responsible with a firearm.

No sympathy from me.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 4

Armando de la Guerra
09-27-2013, 3:29 PM
I was wondering why you got 90 days for a first offense. PC 25850 says there is a MINIMUM 90 day sentence if you've previously been convicted of either 23515 (violent use of a firearm), or PC 16580 (which seems to list a lot of other offenses)

What is the whole story?

vmwerks
09-27-2013, 3:31 PM
You broke the law where's the problem?

I am totally pissed.. Here is what happened. I was in a car accident and the tow truck driver was doing an inventory of my truck when he came across my wife's 380 simi in the center console. He walked over to the police officer writing up the accident report and said "He has a gun in his truck" and that was it.. It was loaded so I was arrested and hauled off. Now I know she had a gun for protection because she travels to a lot of VA hospitals doing volunteer work and also out of state for personal work alone and crosses a lot of deserts by herself at night so yeah, they had me dead to rights and I admit it. Now here is the kicker, the judge gave me 90 days in jail, 3 years probation and a fricken 10 year gun ban! I have never been convicted of anything other than a brandishing charge (a knife not a gun) that happened back in 1990. Yes, that is right almost 25 years ago! No acts of domestic violence or felony convictions of any kind. I think I got screwed and I cannot find any case law that supports a 10 year ban for this. Has anyone seen this before? Is it because I was in a Los Angeles City court? I am 49 years old so this would pretty much mean I have lost my 2nd amendment right until I am almost 60! WHAT IN THE HELL IS GOING ON HERE!!!! :facepalm:

mofojoe
09-27-2013, 3:37 PM
If the vehicle was being impounded, or stored, at the direction of a law enforcement officer, as is common at accident scenes, nearly all agencies require that an "Inventory Search" be done of the vehicle.

There is a substantial body of case law that allows for "Inventory Searches." The idea is that when the officer, and tow company, become responsible for the vehicle, they're entitled to know what they're assuming responsibility for. Too many folks have claimed that their $5,000 Rolex watch was missing from the glove box of their junker car after it was impounded.

If this guy was in a normal accident why would the police impound his car? I rear ended a guy once, the CHP came, saw I had insurance and left. I had to call a tow truck my self to take my vehicle to the body shop. I just flat out don't believe his story. You read some crazy crap here. I guess people are lonely with nothing to do.

Armando de la Guerra
09-27-2013, 3:45 PM
I know a guy who got popped for a DUI a few years back. (Apparently he drove thru Jack in the Box about 2:00 am and they called the po-po). Anyway, he was drinking some hooch from a thermos when he got stopped. He put the thermos on the floor behind the front seat, very close to where he kept a loaded snubby. Anyway the cops found the thermos, but missed the snubby just inches away. When he picked up his car from impound, the snubby was still there. I told the dude that outside of winning the lotto, that's the luckiest story I ever heard.

Ratboy
09-28-2013, 8:24 AM
You do realize that juries are made up of twelve people too stupid to get out of jury duty don't you? :rolleyes:

Not true.

I look forward to serving on a jury. I'm am never "chosen" for the duty though.

JohnCCW
09-28-2013, 3:50 PM
Not true.

I look forward to serving on a jury. I'm am never "chosen" for the duty though.

Me too. And I know about jury nullification.

JohnCCW
09-28-2013, 3:53 PM
OP- sounds like you are screwed, since you have already been sentenced.
Something your lawyer at the time should have objected to, but what do I know.

19K
09-28-2013, 4:09 PM
so you knew your wife carried a loaded pistol in the car, her gun, and still decided to keep it in there while driving? smart move. play the game, lose the game, enjoy the consequences.

Jess B. Guy
09-28-2013, 6:02 PM
"you need a gun lawyer, not these internet bozo's and their opinions."

Well, I am a lawyer - still not a 10 year ban. Haven't been called a bozo in a long time. :)

kentactic
09-28-2013, 6:18 PM
Sorry to hear it bud. Your a victim of a tyrannical system. Keep your head up proud. Youve done nothing wrong.

sumdood
09-28-2013, 6:37 PM
I'm a bit surprised by some of the comments here from people who are supposedly pro-gun.

There should be nothing wrong with carrying a loaded gun in your car. Alas, though, this is California and these folks vote for the politicians and laws that we have.

Sakiri
09-28-2013, 6:42 PM
Unless the old lady has a concealed carry permit, not even she can keep it in the center console.

Not sure about the VA and parking lot thing. The ruling with the Post Office was about the PARKING LOT, and not the PO proper.

What I'm trying to figure out, is why he'd leave his wife's loaded gun in the center console. If she has a permit, and is keeping it there, then she should know better than to leave it in there when she's not using the car or parked somewhere.. ie: if you are driving without her, it shouldn't be there.

I keep mine unloaded and locked in a pistol case at all times. They can pitch a fit all they want, but it's a) not loaded and b) not readily accessible behind a pair of brass padlocks.

It's the only way you can keep a handgun in a car if you don't have a carry permit.

Slightly off topic, but slightly related: PA has the stupidest car carry rules. You can legally open carry anywhere in the state outside Philly without a permit. HOWEVER, you cannot carry in your car without one. It has to be locked, unloaded, in the trunk....

-_-

19K
09-28-2013, 6:42 PM
I'm a bit surprised by some of the comments here from people who are supposedly pro-gun.

There should be nothing wrong with carrying a loaded gun in your car. Alas, though, this is California and these folks vote for the politicians and laws that we have.

rules are rules. as much as I would love to carry a loaded gun on me or in my truck, I wont unless I get a license. I don't want to lose my rights when caught. you may never be stopped, but something like this, a car accident, and it was found out.

jdben92883
09-28-2013, 8:23 PM
I don't know if it's the times or LA County, or both. Many, many years ago a "friend of mine" would keep a loaded revolver in his truck. He worked odd hours in odd places and just preferred it was there. He left it in his glove box when he went out on an overnight fishing trip in San Diego. Truck was parked in one of those shadey lots where you stuff your $5 into the slot numbered with your spot. His truck got towed because the stand-up guys at Ace Parking claimed he never paid. They went through his glove box, and turned the revolver to the police. He had to make an uncomfortable trip down to S.D. Police Dept., but was able to retrieve his revolver no-questions asked. They did keep his ammo and he didn't have the guts to ask for it back!!

Anyhow...good luck OP.

jdben92883
09-28-2013, 8:25 PM
Fixed it for you...your rights have already been lost.

rules are rules. as much as I would love to carry a loaded gun on me or in my truck, I wont unless I get a license. I don't want to lose my rights when caught the few rights I have left. you may never be stopped, but something like this, a car accident, and it was found out.

SWalt
09-28-2013, 9:02 PM
CA just plain sucks, OP, get a good firearm lawyer and see what they can do for you. I'm a little bit curious about those who think the OP deserves it. What will all you do if the bill that outlaws "high capacity mags" is signed. I expect to see you lining up outside the popo station right? Just because there is a law it doesn't make it right.

basalt
09-28-2013, 10:16 PM
...why do it with a loaded firearm? It is not hard to load a firearm when it is needed.

Worst. Advice. Ever. Everything you said goes against everything taught in defending one's self.

In LA (and much of CA) there is no way for them to legally carry to defend themselves. That seems like a blatant infringement of 2A rights. It is not their fault they have to break the law to exercise their right.

Where would we be if no one ever broke the law to defend their rights?

schneiderguy
09-28-2013, 10:42 PM
Like the law or not, it's the law and crimes come with punishments. There are a lot of laws I may not agree with, but I'm not risking my freedom over it.

Sounds like you've already lost your freedom if you're scared to carry an inanimate object in public.

Sakiri
09-28-2013, 10:47 PM
Worst. Advice. Ever. Everything you said goes against everything taught in defending one's self.

In LA (and much of CA) there is no way for them to legally carry to defend themselves. That seems like a blatant infringement of 2A rights. It is not their fault they have to break the law to exercise their right.

Where would we be if no one ever broke the law to defend their rights?

In the liberal utopia that these douchecanoes want.

SFgiants105
09-28-2013, 11:01 PM
you need a gun lawyer, not these internet bozo's and their opinions.

+1 on that

19K
09-28-2013, 11:36 PM
CA just plain sucks, OP, get a good firearm lawyer and see what they can do for you. I'm a little bit curious about those who think the OP deserves it. What will all you do if the bill that outlaws "high capacity mags" is signed. I expect to see you lining up outside the popo station right? Just because there is a law it doesn't make it right.

what "high capacity" magazines?

bodger
09-28-2013, 11:46 PM
this^



You sure about the VA thing? Didn't the supreme court just rule against the law banning firearms at the post office?? Wouldn't it also apply to the VA?


OP

Just move. Take you guns and your money with you.. CA just made it easy for you to decide where you don't want to retire.

The only thing I am sure of is that the last time I was at the VA facility in West Los Angeles, which was about ten days ago, the signs stating "No Firearms" were still up, and if I recall, they apply to the entirety of the federal property, not just the buildings.

If anything changed, they have yet to remove or update the signage over there. In any case, I make sure I don't have any firearms in my truck when I go to the VA.

prob
09-29-2013, 12:04 AM
So you're pissed that you broke the law and got caught?

Crimes come with penalties. If more people paid attention to the penalty maybe they would reconsider their actions.

No remorse from me bud.

10 years only? Should have been lifetime since you are not capable of being safe or responsible with a firearm.

No sympathy from me.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 4

You broke the law where's the problem?

Seriously? What a bunch of sanctimonious blowhards. The punishment is far and away disproportionate to the crime.

We live in an era where laws are routinely NOT enforced because of political correctness or expediency. Why should the OP expect to have his life turned upside down simply because he had a loaded gun in his car? I can understand the forfeiture of the gun and maybe a few hours in jail, but 90 days in jail, probation, and a 10 year ban on possession of firearms? I'd sure like to know what kind of black and white world you guys live in. And, yes, I read where he was booted out of jail early, but as far as the judge was concerned, you can be sure she meant for him to serve his entire sentence.

He could have lost his job, his house, his car. Everything. If you can't see the potentially catastrophic implications of the judge's sentence on this man's life for a relatively minor crime, then I certainly do pity your lack of foresight and imagination.

I hope you'll remember your views on this matter if any of your family members end up in trouble with the law. And if you ever get cited for going 26 mph in 25 mph zone, I'll presume that you'll accept it with a smile knowing that you broke the law and received your just desserts.

And, no, none of my family has spent any time in jail or has suffered through anything worse than a traffic ticket, it's just that I know what's right and what's wrong, and the OP's penalty just stinks.

19K
09-29-2013, 8:55 AM
Seriously? What a bunch of sanctimonious blowhards. The punishment is far and away disproportionate to the crime.


I hope you'll remember your views on this matter if any of your family members end up in trouble with the law. And if you ever get cited for going 26 mph in 25 mph zone, I'll presume that you'll accept it with a smile knowing that you broke the law and received your just desserts. did you or did you not infact break the law?

And, no, none of my family has spent any time in jail or has suffered through anything worse than a traffic ticket,
does your family drive around town with a loaded pistol in the glove box without a CCW? it's just that I know what's right and what's wrong, and the OP's penalty just stinks.


these are just the rules we have to play by when you decide to live in this state past the age of 21. the rules suck, the punishments are harsh. you play the game, you follow the rules and you wont have to deal with the states punishments.

Maestro Pistolero
09-29-2013, 10:28 AM
Obeying firearms law in California can get you killed. Can I assume that's also a price you are willing to pay?

shooterfpga
09-29-2013, 10:53 AM
Get a firearms lawyer. Secondly it sounds like your wife had just returned from a gun friendly state that allows loaded carry and she forgot about it.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2

Sakiri
09-29-2013, 4:39 PM
The only thing I am sure of is that the last time I was at the VA facility in West Los Angeles, which was about ten days ago, the signs stating "No Firearms" were still up, and if I recall, they apply to the entirety of the federal property, not just the buildings.

If anything changed, they have yet to remove or update the signage over there. In any case, I make sure I don't have any firearms in my truck when I go to the VA.

The signs at the post office only apply to the buildings.

That's where the confusion might be. Especially when you consider that if you cannot carry into the building, you have to leave it *somewhere* and leaving it at home is NOT reasonable.

missiondude
09-29-2013, 4:53 PM
move. This 10 years is only in CA

I suggest Arizona...

JustEd
09-29-2013, 5:11 PM
Cole, you don't deserve it!

It would have been better to have an attorney before you were convicted, but it is always helpful to consult one. Hopefully some options are available to you.

Best of luck.!

Jess B. Guy
09-29-2013, 5:24 PM
It's an illegal sentence. Can go back to court and have it modified.

Bobby Hated
09-29-2013, 7:09 PM
So you're pissed that you broke the law and got caught?

Crimes come with penalties. If more people paid attention to the penalty maybe they would reconsider their actions.

No remorse from me bud.

This is the most asinine comment I've seen on this forum in some time.

Whatever you've done for 2A rights, you're undoing it with that attitude.

DannyInSoCal
09-29-2013, 7:19 PM
All you guys spouting off about how he "deserved it" -

Must sit down to pee.

Pathetic........

Hoop
09-30-2013, 9:42 AM
I'm a bit surprised by some of the comments here from people who are supposedly pro-gun.

There should be nothing wrong with carrying a loaded gun in your car. Alas, though, this is California and these folks vote for the politicians and laws that we have.

I agree.

Just because something is "against the law" doesn't make it wrong. Many of our laws are tyrannical and over-reaching.

The people who are trying to drag down the OP are the reason we don't live in a free country anymore. They think authority is great and never question it.

Hoop
09-30-2013, 9:44 AM
It's an illegal sentence. Can go back to court and have it modified.

Yeap, and it happens all the time.

A good lawyer should be able to get that knocked down no problem.

kentactic
09-30-2013, 9:53 AM
I know a person who recently got a DUI while offroading with an illegally concealed gun on his person. He got 3 months probation... That's how it can go with a good lawyer.

Uglyd
09-30-2013, 10:10 AM
I agree.

Just because something is "against the law" doesn't make it wrong. Many of our laws are tyrannical and over-reaching.

The people who are trying to drag down the OP are the reason we don't live in a free country anymore. They think authority is great and never question it.

This point doesn't make much sense to me. What you are saying is that you are aware of a laws you don't agree with and disregard them. You then get caught because you are "right" and shouldn't have to pay the consequences? I believe in peaceful protest and I also believe that we do have limited rights here (I'm from GA and you can really do whatever the hell you want there). Nevertheless, to stay and to know the laws is to acquiesce. Check out Socrates "The Apology" - older story, same theme. One can stay faithful to their own sense of "right and wrong" and STILL undergo consequences. I don't think the OP did anything wrong. Would I have done it knowing it's illegal? No sir. Will I walk my dog without a leash on a state park? Yep. Get tickets all the time. It's a stupid law to me and I'm ok with the consequences.

ChrisBrooklyn
09-30-2013, 10:22 AM
You probably have a lawsuit against the two company. Talk to lawyer but a good one could probably get you paid.

proglock
09-30-2013, 3:01 PM
A fellow calgunner committed a mistake he does not deny. He posted his experience to inform members of this group and to get opinions about the 10 yr ban and not be classified as criminal. I feel sorry for you coldude and I hope you get through this. Goodluck.

josh250
09-30-2013, 3:28 PM
This situation sucks all around....best of luck to you!

basalt
09-30-2013, 5:02 PM
This point doesn't make much sense to me. What you are saying is that you are aware of a laws you don't agree with and disregard them. You then get caught because you are "right" and shouldn't have to pay the consequences? I believe in peaceful protest and I also believe that we do have limited rights here (I'm from GA and you can really do whatever the hell you want there). Nevertheless, to stay and to know the laws is to acquiesce. Check out Socrates "The Apology" - older story, same theme. One can stay faithful to their own sense of "right and wrong" and STILL undergo consequences. I don't think the OP did anything wrong. Would I have done it knowing it's illegal? No sir. Will I walk my dog without a leash on a state park? Yep. Get tickets all the time. It's a stupid law to me and I'm ok with the consequences.

Two issues here. Walking your dog off leash is not a Right as outlined in the Constitution.

Second, the penalty you have accepted - the ticket - is inline with and completely within the law. You know walking your dog off leash is a $50 fine. You walk your dog off leash, and get a $50 fine. You are okay with that. Not the same thing. The only way you could compare to the OP's situation is if you get a $50000 fine for walking your dog off leash. Are you still totally cool with that because you knowingly broke the law?

just saw this in response to an article on Maryland's gun laws and found it fitting:



The U.S. Constitution is the supreme law of the land, and any statute,

to be valid, must be in agreement. It is impossible for a law which

violates the Constitution to be valid.

"An unconstitutional act is not law; it confers no rights; it

imposes no duties; affords no protection; it creates no office; it

is in legal contemplation, as inoperative as though it had never

been passed." Norton vs. Shelby County 118 US 425 p. 442

"All laws which are repugnant to the Constitution are null and

void." Marbury vs. Madison, 5 US (2 Cranch) 137, 174, 176, (1803)

"When rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there

can be no rule making or legislation which would abrogate them."

Miranda vs. Arizona, 384 US 436 p. 491.

"The general rule is that an unconstitutional statute, though

having the form and name of law, is in reality no law, but is

wholly void, and ineffective for any purpose; since

unconstitutionality dates from the time of its enactment, and not

merely from the date of the decision so branding it.

"No one is bound to obey an unconstitutional law and no courts

are bound to enforce it." 16 Am Jur 2nd, Sec 177 late 2d, Sec 256

SVT-40
09-30-2013, 5:03 PM
You probably have a lawsuit against the two company. Talk to lawyer but a good one could probably get you paid.

:rolleyes:

Yeah those "two" companies as some real shady operators....:p

stix213
09-30-2013, 5:15 PM
The OP should send in the PFEC form to check if he is really prohibited since 25850 is not actually a prohibiting misdemeanor. The OP might not actually be on the banned list.

http://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/pdfs/firearms/forms/pfecapp.pdf

stix213
09-30-2013, 5:18 PM
You probably have a lawsuit against the two company. Talk to lawyer but a good one could probably get you paid.

I doubt it since the OP did commit a crime and the tow driver was simply reporting it.

What amazes me though is knowing there was a loaded unsecured gun in the vehicle it was not removed by the OP prior to the tow driver getting access to it.

RickD427
09-30-2013, 6:16 PM
You probably have a lawsuit against the two company. Talk to lawyer but a good one could probably get you paid.

There's not the makings of a successful lawsuit here. The tow driver has every right to search the car for any valuables that he's assuming responsibility for. He acted responsibly in notifiying the officer of the weapon. He did a good job, nothing to be sued for.

Sunday
09-30-2013, 6:44 PM
What good is the constitution anyway. Nobody even those who have taken a oath to don't uphold or protect it.

mmonnier
09-30-2013, 7:47 PM
No a troll post means your story is likely fake and you posted it to get a rise out of people.

If in fact is true, you may want to reconsider posting details of your case on a public forum. "Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law" ring a bell?

This guys just looking for some advice, you don't have to be an *** about it. Regardless of if you would or wouldn't do it yourself doesn't change his situation. CA has some of the lamest laws in the nation when it comes to guns. I feel for this dude. Good luck brother!

North Bay Guy
09-30-2013, 7:56 PM
The tow truck driver's in my town, wouldn't have said anything to the cop. It's really hard for me to believe, they would say something like that to the cops. I really can't believe that, are you sure the cop didnt search the car for another reason?

Uglyd
09-30-2013, 8:29 PM
Two issues here. Walking your dog off leash is not a Right as outlined in the Constitution.

Second, the penalty you have accepted - the ticket - is inline with and completely within the law. You know walking your dog off leash is a $50 fine. You walk your dog off leash, and get a $50 fine. You are okay with that. Not the same thing. The only way you could compare to the OP's situation is if you get a $50000 fine for walking your dog off leash. Are you still totally cool with that because you knowingly broke the law?

just saw this in response to an article on Maryland's gun laws and found it fitting:
Who says it's "inline"? You see, right there you are making a judgment. You are assuming proportionality. My dog is black btw so it is a constitution thing.

But I know better than to debate online. It's futile. The guy breaking the law was wronged, it's so bad, how could anyone be treated so poorly, how dare they, yadda yadda yadda. I'm gonna go shoot my guns :43:

Simi-Surfer
09-30-2013, 8:32 PM
Always better to know that law and consequences of carrying a weapon concealed when you do not have a permit/license to do so. Sucks to have had this happen, but now you have to pay the price. I know many others that have an I don't care attitude and carry without a permit/license, but I am sure that they will sing a different song if they are caught.

mage
10-01-2013, 9:47 AM
The law does not determine what is right. Full stop. Anyone who thinks otherwise is part of the problem.

Breaking an unjust law, particularly in this case, is clearly a poor decision. I'm sure the OP knows this.

...but he didn't hurt anyone. He didn't harm anyone in any way. And he is losing a fundamental right for a decade. That is absolutely a travesty. Gun transport laws are a maze designed to trap the unwary. Most gun owners spend basically no time on calguns, but I'm on here all the time.

...and you know, I'm trying to remember, off the top of my head, whether I can transport an unlocked rifle in the back of a hatchback. Case required? Does that case need to be locked? What counts as a case? My car has a trunk, but what happens if I drive my wife's hatchback to the range?

Should he have known better? Sure. But it's easy to make a mistake.

Also, this is legal:

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/09/13/20476580-outrage-over-death-of-yemeni-child-bride-8-on-wedding-night?lite

That counts as wrong in my book. Someone rescuing a yemeni child bride from rape would be a criminal in yemen.

...the law may be the law, but the OP is an innocent man screwed by an evil law. He is a victim. Dumb? Perhaps, but no more so than someone that gets mugged after getting lost in a bad neighborhood.

Maestro Pistolero
10-01-2013, 9:58 AM
Breaking an unjust law, particularly in this case, is clearly a poor decision. I'm sure the OP knows this. How unwise would that decision have been had that weapon saved a life, his or another's?

mage
10-01-2013, 10:21 AM
How unwise would that decision have been had that weapon saved a life, his or another's?

Then it would have been a good decision? My personal threat eval places cops as a greater threat than criminals, so my precautions tend that way.

...but yeah, if I'd say, angered some gang bangers recently, I'd likely reconsider.

I've known fellow emts that carried illegally when working in bad areas.
Their decision. I certainly wouldn't have condemned them as bad bad criminals had they got caught.

bruss01
10-01-2013, 10:42 AM
A few things aren't clear to me from the OP's explanation.

First, the GF - did she know that carrying a loaded pistol in the car was illegal in CA? I'm thinking it's possible maybe she moved here from another state where the practice is perfectly legal, and had a decades-long habit of carrying that way, and it never occurred to her that she may have been breaking the law. A serious and careless mistake, but one of innocent intention.

Second - did the OP even know the gun was in there? He didn't say if he just borrowed her car, and whoops, didn't know that was there. That may have been a plausible story in court... too late for that now but anyway. And did the OP know it was loaded?

So the question that is on many minds here is was the law and the potential pentaly for breaking it known, but disregarded... or was there some level of ignorance about carrying a loaded gun concealed in a vehicle being illegal, or that there were stiff penalties for it?

To the OP - I don't believe you did anything wrong... illegal, yes, but wrong, no. I hope you get a reduction in your gun prohibition.

I really would like to know, though... did you not think it was a serious matter to drive around with a loaded gun in the storage compartment? Did you think it would be a slap on the wrist? That you would get some kind of leeway from the judge because you are an upstanding citizen or a military veteran? Or did you know it was a gravely serious matter but just thought it would never happen to you? Did it cross your mind when you borrowed your GF's car that it was in there?

If you had a son, and he had been in the practice of driving around with a loaded gun in the car, and you knew the penalties for getting caught... what would you have said to him about it?

I'm not asking these questions to rub your nose in it in any way... but rather, as an instruction to any who would read this thread afterward, as a guide to their own thought process. There are those who say "better judged by 12 than carried by 6..." but they think they will never get caught because they're "careful". Maybe you have some comments to offer in defense or criticism of that thought process.

GraveTPO
10-01-2013, 11:16 AM
Seriously? What a bunch of sanctimonious blowhards. The punishment is far and away disproportionate to the crime.

We live in an era where laws are routinely NOT enforced because of political correctness or expediency. Why should the OP expect to have his life turned upside down simply because he had a loaded gun in his car? I can understand the forfeiture of the gun and maybe a few hours in jail, but 90 days in jail, probation, and a 10 year ban on possession of firearms? I'd sure like to know what kind of black and white world you guys live in. And, yes, I read where he was booted out of jail early, but as far as the judge was concerned, you can be sure she meant for him to serve his entire sentence.

He could have lost his job, his house, his car. Everything. If you can't see the potentially catastrophic implications of the judge's sentence on this man's life for a relatively minor crime, then I certainly do pity your lack of foresight and imagination.

I hope you'll remember your views on this matter if any of your family members end up in trouble with the law. And if you ever get cited for going 26 mph in 25 mph zone, I'll presume that you'll accept it with a smile knowing that you broke the law and received your just desserts.

And, no, none of my family has spent any time in jail or has suffered through anything worse than a traffic ticket, it's just that I know what's right and what's wrong, and the OP's penalty just stinks.
Perfectly said.

A and O
10-01-2013, 12:31 PM
Do not ever hire an attorney, their first duty is to the court.

You are in the right. The best a lawyer can do is reduce the penalty for the unlawful law.

Basalt posted the following:


The U.S. Constitution is the supreme law of the land, and any statute,

to be valid, must be in agreement. It is impossible for a law which

violates the Constitution to be valid.

"An unconstitutional act is not law; it confers no rights; it

imposes no duties; affords no protection; it creates no office; it

is in legal contemplation, as inoperative as though it had never

been passed." Norton vs. Shelby County 118 US 425 p. 442

"All laws which are repugnant to the Constitution are null and

void." Marbury vs. Madison, 5 US (2 Cranch) 137, 174, 176, (1803)

"When rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there

can be no rule making or legislation which would abrogate them."

Miranda vs. Arizona, 384 US 436 p. 491.

"The general rule is that an unconstitutional statute, though

having the form and name of law, is in reality no law, but is

wholly void, and ineffective for any purpose; since

unconstitutionality dates from the time of its enactment, and not

merely from the date of the decision so branding it.

"No one is bound to obey an unconstitutional law and no courts

are bound to enforce it." 16 Am Jur 2nd, Sec 177 late 2d, Sec 256


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would have objected immediately and filed a motion to dismiss.

How?

I double Guarantee that no verified complaint was on file. They have 15 days to get a verified complaint (I think from the time of arrest or ticket) which they can never ever do because they know what Basalt wrote is true.

They are knowingly violating us and our rights because of the ignorance about what both I and Basalt wrote.

Once you object you shut up aside from repeating that you object and that you will be appealing.

lawspud
10-04-2013, 1:39 AM
"you need a gun lawyer, not these internet bozo's and their opinions."

Well, I am a lawyer - still not a 10 year ban. Haven't been called a bozo in a long time. :)

You're not a bozo. You're just right. The 10-year ban only applies to specific convictions (or mental health commitments) and can't be imposed by a judge simply by "checking a box." The judge can impose a "no firearms or deadly weapons" term for the period of probation, but can't go beyond that unless the ban is imposed by law.

That said, I guess you could be a bozo. But your bozo-ness is certainly unrelated to this thread. ;)

lawspud
10-04-2013, 1:43 AM
Do not ever hire an attorney, their first duty is to the court.

You are in the right. The best a lawyer can do is reduce the penalty for the unlawful law.

Basalt posted the following:


The U.S. Constitution is the supreme law of the land, and any statute,

to be valid, must be in agreement. It is impossible for a law which

violates the Constitution to be valid.

"An unconstitutional act is not law; it confers no rights; it

imposes no duties; affords no protection; it creates no office; it

is in legal contemplation, as inoperative as though it had never

been passed." Norton vs. Shelby County 118 US 425 p. 442

"All laws which are repugnant to the Constitution are null and

void." Marbury vs. Madison, 5 US (2 Cranch) 137, 174, 176, (1803)

"When rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there

can be no rule making or legislation which would abrogate them."

Miranda vs. Arizona, 384 US 436 p. 491.

"The general rule is that an unconstitutional statute, though

having the form and name of law, is in reality no law, but is

wholly void, and ineffective for any purpose; since

unconstitutionality dates from the time of its enactment, and not

merely from the date of the decision so branding it.

"No one is bound to obey an unconstitutional law and no courts

are bound to enforce it." 16 Am Jur 2nd, Sec 177 late 2d, Sec 256


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would have objected immediately and filed a motion to dismiss.

How?

I double Guarantee that no verified complaint was on file. They have 15 days to get a verified complaint (I think from the time of arrest or ticket) which they can never ever do because they know what Basalt wrote is true.

They are knowingly violating us and our rights because of the ignorance about what both I and Basalt wrote.

Once you object you shut up aside from repeating that you object and that you will be appealing.

This kind of nonsensical crap has landed more people in prison than I can count. How many people has this stuff kept out of the joint? So far as I know...zero.

lawspud
10-04-2013, 1:48 AM
The OP should send in the PFEC form to check if he is really prohibited since 25850 is not actually a prohibiting misdemeanor. The OP might not actually be on the banned list.

http://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/pdfs/firearms/forms/pfecapp.pdf

Well, he's probably banned while on probation. Firearms and deadly weapons are commonly banned for probationers, which makes them Prohibited Persons during the probationary period.

StuckInTheP.R.O.Ca
10-04-2013, 2:51 AM
Thank you, what a very good point!
On another note, for all the f-tards that are on the 'You deserve it" bandwagon I never said I was not guilty of something, all I was saying is that I did NOT deserve a 10 year arms ban over it. When a law is incorrectly applied and our 2A rights are trampled on because a group of politicians have a political agenda it hurts EVERYONE, even you self righteous blowhards who do not even know this actually affects you too. This is a sign of things to come but I guess it’s too hard for you to see from your view from up there.

Aren't the compliance bots like this great! :facepalm:

StuckInTheP.R.O.Ca
10-04-2013, 2:57 AM
OP to bad you aren't an illegal alien or a gangbanger. You probably would have got off easy if you were. Ca really likes to stick it to regular people while letting scumbags get away with all types of c**p.

SmallShark
10-04-2013, 5:18 AM
you broke the law. be a man, and deal with it.

Pumkinking
10-04-2013, 7:53 AM
I think the post's in this thread show why Ca gun laws are the way they are and will only continue on its current path.
What a shame that Gun owners can't pull together on something like this,In other states you have a legal right to defend yourself but in this state you dont.
You know the guy said it was his wife's gun,and for some reason women are targets for rape just to name one and Im sure they knew what they were doing.Anyone ever heard "rather be judged by 12 than be carried by 6"?

I hear you and yes its not a good situation to be in,and again it would seem there absolutely no unity among gun owners in this state and I am not going off this thread alone as I have been reading other threads here and now know the reason why this state is the way it is.
Colorado is able to do things because they all got together for their own common good,we here in Ca will never be able to do this.
Divide and conquer works in this state.

ShowTyme1994
10-04-2013, 3:11 PM
10 years only? Should have been lifetime since you are not capable of being safe or responsible with a firearm.

No sympathy from me.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 4

Maybe you should get a lifetime ban from even posting on here. Heck you should never be allowed to even stare at a gun. The OP made it clear the gun that was in the car was his wife's and was unaware that she had left it. Now even though she takes wherever she goes, doesn't mean that she leaves it knowing her husband doesn't have a LTC and if something happens and the gun is found then he could get in trouble. Sounds like a blue falcon to me. Better yet a buddy ****er.

9-12
10-04-2013, 3:41 PM
Do not ever hire an attorney, their first duty is to the court.

You are in the right. The best a lawyer can do is reduce the penalty for the unlawful law.

Basalt posted the following:


The U.S. Constitution is the supreme law of the land, and any statute,

to be valid, must be in agreement. It is impossible for a law which

violates the Constitution to be valid.

"An unconstitutional act is not law; it confers no rights; it

imposes no duties; affords no protection; it creates no office; it

is in legal contemplation, as inoperative as though it had never

been passed." Norton vs. Shelby County 118 US 425 p. 442

"All laws which are repugnant to the Constitution are null and

void." Marbury vs. Madison, 5 US (2 Cranch) 137, 174, 176, (1803)

"When rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there

can be no rule making or legislation which would abrogate them."

Miranda vs. Arizona, 384 US 436 p. 491.

"The general rule is that an unconstitutional statute, though

having the form and name of law, is in reality no law, but is

wholly void, and ineffective for any purpose; since

unconstitutionality dates from the time of its enactment, and not

merely from the date of the decision so branding it.

"No one is bound to obey an unconstitutional law and no courts

are bound to enforce it." 16 Am Jur 2nd, Sec 177 late 2d, Sec 256


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would have objected immediately and filed a motion to dismiss.

How?

I double Guarantee that no verified complaint was on file. They have 15 days to get a verified complaint (I think from the time of arrest or ticket) which they can never ever do because they know what Basalt wrote is true.

They are knowingly violating us and our rights because of the ignorance about what both I and Basalt wrote.

Once you object you shut up aside from repeating that you object and that you will be appealing.

The law is useless if the judicial won't recognize it or uphold it. Been there, done that.

"Do not ever hire an attorney, their first duty is to the court." I wholly agree with this but even lawyers tend to not want to create waves.

Fate
10-04-2013, 4:47 PM
Sucks to be a political prisoner. Good luck with your appeal.

ShowTyme1994
10-04-2013, 8:01 PM
you broke the law. be a man, and deal with it.

No he didn't. An unjust law is no law at all. And it's not his fault his wife left the gun in the car without telling him. Yeah he could've checked but still.

prob
10-04-2013, 9:54 PM
you broke the law. be a man, and deal with it.

How exactly does it feel to be an automaton of the state? Contributors to Calguns very frequently refer to the "sheeple" who, like lemmings, blindly follow anyone or anything without regard to the consequences they might incur (or cause).

You, sir, are a prime example of one of these creatures. With your single-minded adherence to unjust punishments meted out as a brand of figurative public gibbeting, you support the very system that would, in a heartbeat, do the same to you.

Do yourself a favor and try to think clearly for a moment or two. It couldn't hurt, and you might just see things in a different light.

Safety1st
10-05-2013, 1:00 AM
A good reminder to keep the Calguns Foundation Help Hotline info with you at all times. Hope things work out in your favor OP.

http://www.calgunsfoundation.org/get-help/hotline/

voiceofreason
10-05-2013, 11:13 AM
Does this apply only in CA, or nationally?

If only in CA, move to a free-ER state.

rayz13
10-07-2013, 9:44 PM
for those of you who think he deserves this-please- return to your boot licking, and may we forget you were once our countrymen

c-wick
10-09-2013, 2:43 PM
wow, that blows OP. thanks for posting in here and sorry for the a-holes who aren't as understanding as some.

brokentapedeck
10-11-2013, 6:11 AM
So you're pissed that you broke the law and got caught?

Crimes come with penalties. If more people paid attention to the penalty maybe they would reconsider their actions.

No remorse from me bud.
way to be part of the problem with america. people like you make me sick.

RobG
10-11-2013, 11:38 AM
10 years only? Should have been lifetime since you are not capable of being safe or responsible with a firearm.

No sympathy from me.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 4

:facepalm: So people that do this in other states where it is perfectly legal should be banned from having firearms as well? If the OP had a ccw (no chance in LA) this would have been legal. The difference between carrying "legally" and "illegally" is simply the government giving you a piece of paper with permission to do so.

digger2
10-11-2013, 1:04 PM
I guess one lesson for us is to STFU if put into such a situation. Do not allow a search of the car, ask for a lawyer and say nothing.
It is a bummer what happened and with hindsight the gun should at least have been in a small gun vault under the seat. If the cop asks what's in the box just say valuables and shut up.

Gutpile66
10-11-2013, 2:00 PM
This thread and others like it make me sick. I can't believe what I'm hearing.

The "policemen" involved in enforcing unconstitutional laws are breaking our God given rights as Americans. Yet I see so many of you getting caught up in the minutia of illegal laws put in place by despotic leaders who, at the least, should be tried for treason.

Op, it's a shame that tragedies like yours don't provide us with the motivation to organize and make the changes that are necessary to provide our children, and our grandchildren, the rights given to us by our Creator, as so brilliantly recognized by our founding fathers.

Illegal laws are not laws. The term 'illegal', to a treasonous-despotic-psychopathological-narcissistic statist, is nothing more than a sick bird.

KABA556
10-11-2013, 8:39 PM
I am totally pissed.. Here is what happened. I was in a car accident and the tow truck driver was doing an inventory of my truck when he came across my wife's 380 simi in the center console. He walked over to the police officer writing up the accident report and said "He has a gun in his truck" and that was it.. It was loaded so I was arrested and hauled off.




1- File suit against the tow truck driver/company [a lawyer in your area can discuss the claim that you will be advancing]. Possibly a breach of privacy, something... Definitely worth discussing with an attorney in your area.

2- Your main objection to this should be on the grounds of the 8th amendment, that the punishment is vastly disproportionate to the alleged offense.

3- Argue intent, that you never intended to possess that gun.

4- Argue that the word of a truck driver that you had a weapon in your vehicle is not probable cause for the police to conduct a search and to seize the weapon. If you consented to letting the officers go into your vehicle and take the weapon then you're pretty well sunk.

KABA556
10-11-2013, 8:42 PM
Had a lawyer but he was blindsided too. We decided not to challenge her until I finished my 90 day sentence so she would not try and give me a year. We are going to challenge the 10 as it's not within guidelines for a non-violent 1st gun offense. If this ban does not apply to other states I will up and move before submitting to this insane 10 year ban. They are telling me I have to get rid of a 20 year gun collection!!! I just don't get it, I am a vet with an honorable discharge, work as a I.T. director for a EMR company, never miss paying a single bill or mortgage payment, did not walk away from my loan obligation even when I was upside down on my home like a lot of others did and yet I am treated like a gang member because some tow truck drive was digging through my truck and found a .380 that was loaded. Just amazing..
To the user Dfence I would like to address a statement you made. You said "Crimes come with penalties" well if you think what they are doing to me is the correct penalty for what I was charged with then you must be some kind of pro government psycho gun control propaganda machine!!!



You don't get it?

This is 2013 America, this isn't 1823... Did you expect the government to care about your rights?


You try to play by the rules and you still lose the game.


As for the guy who said you break the law and pay the consequences, I hope he never has the misfortune of accidentally violating one of the millions of federal laws on the books.

It would take a team of perhaps 50-100 lawyers to understand the complete Internal Revenue Code... Ignorance is absolutely an excuse when there are millions of laws, codes, regulations, and not even a single government lawyer can recite them.

Ignorance is no excuse when there are a few dozen basic laws and they address things that are malum in se [wrong in itself], such as murder, rape, robbery, theft, arson, kidnapping, fraud, etc.

America is the land of malum prohibitum and civil law. The common law is basically dead in this nation, it has to go away to make way for millions of statutes of civil law.


If the ATF ever indicts you for some violation of a law you didn't know about, make an offer in open court, ask the attorney for the government to recite EVERY sentence of federal firearms law, EVERY ATF policy/ruling, from memory, and if the attorney can successfully do that, you agree to plea guilty, if he cannot do it, they must drop the charges against you. In a land where the laws are so numerous they could fill a dozen libraries, ignorance is a valid excuse.

KABA556
10-11-2013, 8:52 PM
Yeah....so you carry loaded gun with you wherever you go right? And if you get caught your defense is going to be "shall not be infringed"?

Enjoy your stent in jail with that defense.

Like the law or not, it's the law and crimes come with punishments. There are a lot of laws I may not agree with, but I'm not risking my freedom over it.



If juries had citizens instead of serfs, more people would be cleared.

Citizens have a right and an obligation to nullify unjust laws.


Anybody who is on trial solely for a non-violent firearms offense [i.e. mere possession of a "prohibited" weapon, not the use/possession of said weapon during a bank robbery/murder] should be found not guilty by a reasonable jury, because the law prohibiting the possession of the weapon is WRONG, IMMORAL, and UNJUST.


It is a fundamental conflict between those who see the world in right/wrong and those who see the world in legal/illegal.

Not everything that is illegal is immoral and not everything that is legal is moral.

Authoritarians and conformists tend to equate legality and morality, combining the two, such that something that is illegal must necessarily be seen as immoral.

I can stand in Arizona with a legally concealed pistol and if I step one inch across the border into California I am suddenly committing an offense against their law, but it is not an immoral action.

KABA556
10-11-2013, 8:55 PM
Thank you, what a very good point!
On another note, for all the f-tards that are on the 'You deserve it" bandwagon I never said I was not guilty of something, all I was saying is that I did NOT deserve a 10 year arms ban over it. When a law is incorrectly applied and our 2A rights are trampled on because a group of politicians have a political agenda it hurts EVERYONE, even you self righteous blowhards who do not even know this actually affects you too. This is a sign of things to come but I guess it’s too hard for you to see from your view from up there.



They are the same sort of people who would have refused to do anything in 1775 because "the King is the lawful leader, we cannot raise a hand against our lawful leader... His soldiers are here to enforce his laws! God save the king!"


Most people won't hesitate to prostrate themselves before the almighty god government of authoritarianism because most people lack the intelligence [and the discernment] to develop and process a higher morality so they default to the idea that the law conveys morality and whatever is legal is moral, whatever is illegal is immoral, which is why they have such hostility towards anybody who is convicted of a single offense.

Ford8N
10-12-2013, 5:59 AM
What a pansy *** tow truck driver, making a big deal out of nothing "OMG A GUN" :willy_nilly: :rolleyes:. In other states this is not a crime but since you're in CA you are automatically a terrible, terrible man. I would have just told the owner of vehicle, hey don't forget your gun.

Consult a FIREARMS lawyer not just any lawyer and CHALLANGE the hell out of this thing. ****ty situation to be in, BEST OF LUCK!

^^^:patriot:

Victimless crime, guys. There should be a law against most of the CA anti-gun laws.

Wait, there is: "Shall not be infringed"

:iagree:

billmaykafer
10-12-2013, 6:49 AM
If you got convicted of a felony; you're screwed forever unless you get a presidential pardon.

10 year ban in CA isn't as bad as convicted felon.

only eric holder is gonna get a presidential pardon.

billmaykafer
10-12-2013, 6:51 AM
second offense? may want to see if 3rd offense carries life sentence.
"America was founded by hell raises. rugged citizens who evaded taxes,spoke strongly against Tyranny,grew tobacco,brewed beer and spirits,and smuggled weapons. And it will be saved by those same types of citizens."

kcbrown
10-13-2013, 7:30 PM
So you're pissed that you broke the law and got caught?

Crimes come with penalties. If more people paid attention to the penalty maybe they would reconsider their actions.

No remorse from me bud.

"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen!"


Those of you who believe as DFence here does obviously prefer the tranquility of servitude over the animating contest of freedom. You would show no remorse or sympathy towards anyone who violated the Black Codes, or the Alien and Sedition Acts, or any of the many thousands of unjust and, yes, Unconstitutional laws that have existed at one point or another since the founding of our nation.

You can claim all you want to be "fighting" for our rights. Your heart obviously isn't in it because of any belief in liberty. Or, at least, not because of the principle of it, but only because you want it for yourself, and not for anyone else.


Understand this: anything can be made illegal. Anything at all. To claim, as you do here, that the mere existence of a law is sufficient reason to show no remorse or sympathy for those who violate such laws is to legitimize any and all laws no matter their actual validity. The end of that particular road is a very, very dark place.

I suggest you rethink your stance, sir.

LRShooter
10-14-2013, 10:42 PM
So you're pissed that you broke the law and got caught?

Crimes come with penalties. If more people paid attention to the penalty maybe they would reconsider their actions.

No remorse from me bud.

Don't ever move out of the state. I've no remorse that you have put up with the stupid laws of CA. For just about every one else on this forum I do - but not you.

I guess you don't have any remorse for the veterans at the WWII Memorial either, seeing how they're breaking the law. After all, the law is the law right?

tenclip
10-15-2013, 12:27 PM
If this were me I would be thankful that the event in question was not a catalyst for the situation becoming more than it was. Tow truck driver with his kid for a ride-a-long that day and lets the kid sit in the car while he hooks the car up; some impound staff going through the cars looking for whatever they might find and it ends up on the street; the car totaled by insurance and an insurance adjuster discovering it and finding reason to disallow the claim; etc, etc, etc. Regardless of laws, we are responsible for keeping the largest reasonable picture in perspective, and then move inward from there.

desert dog
10-15-2013, 1:13 PM
"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen!"


Those of you who believe as DFence here does obviously prefer the tranquility of servitude over the animating contest of freedom. You would show no remorse or sympathy towards anyone who violated the Black Codes, or the Alien and Sedition Acts, or any of the many thousands of unjust and, yes, Unconstitutional laws that have existed at one point or another since the founding of our nation.

You can claim all you want to be "fighting" for our rights. Your heart obviously isn't in it because of any belief in liberty. Or, at least, not because of the principle of it, but only because you want it for yourself, and not for anyone else.


Understand this: anything can be made illegal. Anything at all. To claim, as you do here, that the mere existence of a law is sufficient reason to show no remorse or sympathy for those who violate such laws is to legitimize any and all laws no matter their actual validity. The end of that particular road is a very, very dark place.

I suggest you rethink your stance, sir.

x 1,000,000

Well stated.

compshell
10-15-2013, 2:21 PM
You know there are always 2 sides of any story, and sometimes people ommit certain details.....

I have to ask- what prompted the vehicle search /tow? Usually when this happens it is due to an infraction/felony/misdemeanor/ probation (dui, repossession, reckless driving). I have never seen a vehicle search/ itemization due to a “simple” collision. The LEO will not show up to the scene unless a crime is committed or someone is injured. There is more to this story.

Packy14
10-15-2013, 2:26 PM
You know there are always 2 sides of any story, and sometimes people ommit certain details.....

I have to ask- what prompted the vehicle search /tow? Usually when this happens it is due to an infraction/felony/misdemeanor/ probation (dui, repossession, reckless driving). I have never seen a vehicle search/ itemization due to a “simple” collision. The LEO will not show up to the scene unless a crime is committed or someone is injured. There is more to this story.

i get that drift too.

KABA556
10-15-2013, 2:41 PM
You know there are always 2 sides of any story, and sometimes people ommit certain details.....

I have to ask- what prompted the vehicle search /tow? Usually when this happens it is due to an infraction/felony/misdemeanor/ probation (dui, repossession, reckless driving). I have never seen a vehicle search/ itemization due to a “simple” collision. The LEO will not show up to the scene unless a crime is committed or someone is injured. There is more to this story.



About three years ago I had my vehicle utterly destroyed [massive frame damage, was barely able to drive it away and wouldn't have been able to if not for the fact that I lived about three miles from where the accident happened, it was towed from my house to the mechanic, etc]...

Anyway, my father was just down the road from where the accident happened so I called him while the idiot who hit me was busy trying to convince the idiot who hit her that she pushed her into me...

I was the lead car in the accident, sitting at a traffic light when an SUV hit me at about 25+ miles per hour and then within 0.5 to 1.0 seconds [audio recording of the accident] later, the lady in the pickup truck hit the lady in the SUV. The impacts were so close together that they were hard for me to distinguish at the scene but after listening to the audio there were clearly two distinct impacts...

Anyway, the police arrived to deal with the accident, and another accident that had happened going the other way on the road. With my father there I transferred all of the contents from my car to his car, especially the contents of my trunk as the trunk had flown open and was so badly damaged it would not close. In plain view of the police I removed a rifle case from the trunk, walked it over to my father's car, and placed it into his car.

Nobody ever said anything about that.


Listening to my original 911 call I told the dispatcher, "somebody hit me and then somebody hit them" as the first thing on my mind was that the idiot hit me and then another idiot hit her. You can actually hear me on my audio recording grumble, "sh**" as about 4 seconds before the accident I looked in my rear-view mirror and saw an SUV barreling down on me with a female driver talking on a cell-phone and rubber-necking at a nearby accident and I thought, "I hope that person stops..." and then a few seconds later I realized they weren't going to stop, I pushed my foot down on the brake as hard as possible [just a reaction, not wanting to be pushed forward into the guy in front of me] and I mumbled "sh**" just before being struck. Indeed I managed to avoid hitting the person in front of me because I normally leave at least 15-20 feet and on this rainy day I left about 30+ feet, although I was pushed about 20-25 feet forward, judging from where the broken glass and fragments of my bumper were and where my vehicle came to a final stop.

But almost at the exact same time, the woman behind the SUV, hit the SUV, she was following so close that it happened almost instantaneously but the audio recording picked up two distinct impacts separated by less than 1 second of time.

Ultimately the woman in the SUV was able to convince the distraught sobbing teenage girl in the pickup that she caused the whole accident and pushed the SUV into me. I was in too much pain to do much at the scene, neither the woman nor the girl even spoke with me to ask me how I was doing.

The police cited the girl in the pickup truck and placed the entire blame on her for supposedly striking the SUV and pushing the SUV into me.

My vehicle was totaled, massive frame damage, the SUV hit me with such force that the vehicle sustained so much front end damage it would not start and it had to be towed away, and the pickup truck hit the SUV with such force that it sustained massive front-end damage and it too was disabled and had to be towed away. My vehicle was the only vehicle capable of being driven away but it was damaged beyond repair and was declared totaled by the insurance company after it was towed from my house to the mechanic.


After listening to the audio recording and thinking about what I had seen in the rear view mirror I went down to the police station to explain that there was no way the SUV was pushed into me, the SUV was going about 25 mph when it hit me and the audio made it clear that there were two distinct impacts. The officer at the scene had asked me "how many impacts were there?" and by that time, with my back on fire, my neck hurting, I shrugged and said, "I really don't know right now, I'll have to check my recording and see how many it picked up..."

Anyway, they were not interested in updating or modifying the report because the report had already been written up and filed, so that teenage girl took the entire blame for the entire accident when her main offense was following too closely.



Whatever all of that may have been about, nobody wanted to inventory my vehicle and neither officer on the scene was concerned that I was moving items, one of which was obviously a rifle case [which they could have reasonably concluded contained a rifle] from the trunk to another vehicle.

jopena
10-15-2013, 10:48 PM
Best of luck, stay strong and focus!

DFence
10-15-2013, 11:33 PM
:beatdeadhorse5:

KABA556
10-16-2013, 5:53 AM
:beatdeadhorse5:



People are free to weigh in and discuss what they want. Just because you worship the codified statutes of the almighty government doesn't mean they have to.

SanPedroShooter
10-16-2013, 7:38 AM
"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen!"


Those of you who believe as DFence here does obviously prefer the tranquility of servitude over the animating contest of freedom. You would show no remorse or sympathy towards anyone who violated the Black Codes, or the Alien and Sedition Acts, or any of the many thousands of unjust and, yes, Unconstitutional laws that have existed at one point or another since the founding of our nation.

You can claim all you want to be "fighting" for our rights. Your heart obviously isn't in it because of any belief in liberty. Or, at least, not because of the principle of it, but only because you want it for yourself, and not for anyone else.


Understand this: anything can be made illegal. Anything at all. To claim, as you do here, that the mere existence of a law is sufficient reason to show no remorse or sympathy for those who violate such laws is to legitimize any and all laws no matter their actual validity. The end of that particular road is a very, very dark place.

I suggest you rethink your stance, sir.

Just in case you missed it.

kcbrown
10-16-2013, 7:51 AM
Understand this: anything can be made illegal. Anything at all. To claim, as you do here, that the mere existence of a law is sufficient reason to show no remorse or sympathy for those who violate such laws is to legitimize any and all laws no matter their actual validity. The end of that particular road is a very, very dark place.


I should elaborate on this a bit.

The reason the end of that particular road is a very dark place is that the claim I refer to here places obedience of the law above ethical behavior. It results in people believing that those who behave ethically deserve the bad outcome prescribed by law if, in behaving ethically, they happen to violate a law.

A population composed of sufficient numbers of people with such cold, dead hearts would be one that lawmakers could literally steer like a herd of cattle through manipulation of the law. There would be nothing the population wouldn't do as a result of their belief that obedience of the law is superior to all other things.

And that is a very, very dark place indeed. It is a place that has been visited multiple times in history, so you cannot claim that it can't happen, because it has.

KABA556
10-16-2013, 9:56 AM
I should elaborate on this a bit.

The reason the end of that particular road is a very dark place is that the claim I refer to here places obedience of the law above ethical behavior. It results in people believing that those who behave ethically deserve the bad outcome prescribed by law if, in behaving ethically, they happen to violate a law.

A population composed of sufficient numbers of people with such cold, dead hearts would be one that lawmakers could literally steer like a herd of cattle through manipulation of the law. There would be nothing the population wouldn't do as a result of their belief that obedience of the law is superior to all other things.

And that is a very, very dark place indeed. It is a place that has been visited multiple times in history, so you cannot claim that it can't happen, because it has.



Police are probably the most dangerous people when it comes to the life, liberty, and property of the citizens.

I do not know of a single instance in history where police refused to obey orders to round up people for mass detention or mass execution, and in many instances the police served as the firing squads.


Professional soldiers are about as dangerous as police.

Conscript soldiers are generally much less dangerous to life and liberty.


History bears this out...

Look at what happened at Tiananmen Square in China. The soldiers from that particular area refused to crush the protests so the authorities had to order in soldiers from another region. The soldiers from that local area who were comprised mostly of former university students, conscripts, did not want to fire on people from their own area whom they may even have known while studying at university, so the authorities relied on soldiers from another area.


On a psychological level, police are career professionals who will typically do anything that they are ordered to do because to do otherwise would jeopardize [or outright end] their career.

Professional soldiers are much the same way, as long as they are paid and their career prospects are decent, they will stay with the team and do what they are told.

Conscript soldiers typically just want to serve their X years and get back to their life. They don't want to take part in overthrowing the existing system to enshrine a dictator because they want to be done with their service and get back to their farm, they want the existing order to remain because it protects their property. They also don't want to take part in massacres because if it is acceptable for the army to massacre citizens then when their X years are up, they will be open to being massacred.


Rome endured as a Republic for as long as her armies were made up of land-owners/farmers who were conscripted into service during times of war/emergency. Once Rome began to accept landless poor urban dwellers to form a permanent standing professional career army [20 year men] the end was in sight.

The landless urban poor, now serving as professional soldiers, had no prospects if their service should come to an end. When their general decided it was time to march on Rome and overthrow the existing system they went along and made it happen.

The Marian reforms set in motion a chain of events that ultimately led to the collapse of the Roman Republic and its transformation into an Empire.

In the early days of the Roman Republic if a politician attempted to promise the masses money from the national treasury, they would immediately kill him [usually by hanging] because they realized that the man was attempting to bribe his way into greater power/influence by stealing the money from the common treasury and that the money in the common treasury was for the good of the nation as a whole.

If there had been a Sulla attempting to march on Rome in 310 BC his army would almost certainly have mutinied and he would have been regarded as a villain, despised by all. But when Sulla marched on Rome in 88 BC, his army was comprised not of land-owning citizens who were eager to finish their term and return home, but 20 year career professionals who were landless urban poor and had no prospects outside of the military.

Analyze Rome and its stability prior to the Marian reforms and then after the Marian reforms. Prior to the Marian reforms there was scarcely any civil strife, to say nothing of a civil war... The Marian reforms came about in 107 BC, over the next 80 years there were multiple civil wars and then the Republic died and morphed into an Empire. The Roman Republic was unable to withstand 80 years of a professional standing army.


Massacres are seldom perpetrated by bands of private individuals armed with knives and clubs. In the history of the world, most murder victims were murdered by agents of the state acting on orders from the state, utilizing the best weapons available.


A policy of very minimal policing [backed up by the ability to rapidly deputize local residents and form a posse] along with essentially no standing army [backed up by state guards, militias, and the ability to rapidly form a military via conscription in the event of an invasion or the imminent threat of invasion] would not only help protect life and liberty, it would help avert bankruptcy and financial collapse.

Standing armies are expensive and America has essentially bankrupted itself paying for one.

mage
10-16-2013, 4:32 PM
Police are probably the most dangerous people when it comes to the life, liberty, and property of the citizens.

I do not know of a single instance in history where police refused to obey orders to round up people for mass detention or mass execution, and in many instances the police served as the firing squads.


Professional soldiers are about as dangerous as police.

Conscript soldiers are generally much less dangerous to life and liberty.


History bears this out...

Look at what happened at Tiananmen Square in China. The soldiers from that particular area refused to crush the protests so the authorities had to order in soldiers from another region. The soldiers from that local area who were comprised mostly of former university students, conscripts, did not want to fire on people from their own area whom they may even have known while studying at university, so the authorities relied on soldiers from another area.


On a psychological level, police are career professionals who will typically do anything that they are ordered to do because to do otherwise would jeopardize [or outright end] their career.

Professional soldiers are much the same way, as long as they are paid and their career prospects are decent, they will stay with the team and do what they are told.

Conscript soldiers typically just want to serve their X years and get back to their life. They don't want to take part in overthrowing the existing system to enshrine a dictator because they want to be done with their service and get back to their farm, they want the existing order to remain because it protects their property. They also don't want to take part in massacres because if it is acceptable for the army to massacre citizens then when their X years are up, they will be open to being massacred.


Rome endured as a Republic for as long as her armies were made up of land-owners/farmers who were conscripted into service during times of war/emergency. Once Rome began to accept landless poor urban dwellers to form a permanent standing professional career army [20 year men] the end was in sight.

The landless urban poor, now serving as professional soldiers, had no prospects if their service should come to an end. When their general decided it was time to march on Rome and overthrow the existing system.

The Marian reforms set in motion a chain of events that ultimately led to the collapse of the Roman Republic and its transformation into an Empire.

In the early days of the Roman Republic if a politician attempted to promise the masses money from the national treasury, they would immediately kill him [usually by hanging] because they realized that the man was attempting to bribe his way into greater power/influence by stealing the money from the common treasury and that the money in the common treasury was for the good of the nation as a whole.

If there had been a Sulla attempting to march on Rome in 310 BC his army would almost certainly have mutinied and he would have been regarded as a villain, despised by all. But when Sulla marched on Rome in 88 BC, his army was comprised not of land-owning citizens who were eager to finish their term and return home, but 20 year career professionals who were landless urban poor and had no prospects outside of the military.

Analyze Rome and its stability prior to the Marian reforms and then after the Marian reforms. Prior to the Marian reforms there was scarcely any civil strife, to say nothing of a civil war... The Marian reforms came about in 107 BC, over the next 80 years there were multiple civil wars and then the Republic died and morphed into an Empire. The Roman Republic was unable to withstand 80 years of a professional standing army.


Massacres are seldom perpetrated by bands of private individuals armed with knives and clubs. In the history of the world, most murder victims were murdered by agents of the state acting on orders from the state, utilizing the best weapons available.


A policy of very minimal policing [backed up by the ability to rapidly deputize local residents and form a posse] along with essentially no standing army [backed up by state guards, militias, and the ability to rapidly form a military via conscription in the event of an invasion or the imminent threat of invasion] would not only help protect life and liberty, it would help avert bankruptcy and financial collapse.

Standing armies are expensive and America has essentially bankrupted itself paying for one.

That was great! Thanks.

kcbrown
10-16-2013, 4:56 PM
A policy of very minimal policing [backed up by the ability to rapidly deputize local residents and form a posse] along with essentially no standing army [backed up by state guards, militias, and the ability to rapidly form a military via conscription in the event of an invasion or the imminent threat of invasion] would not only help protect life and liberty, it would help avert bankruptcy and financial collapse.

Standing armies are expensive and America has essentially bankrupted itself paying for one.

Yep. There's a reason the founders (in particular, the anti-Federalists) distrusted a standing army, and wanted to rely on the militia for common defense. They learned from history. They knew where a standing army would lead.

Our guys in the military service right now might not be willing to carry out orders against the citizenry on U.S. soil, but we won't know until they're actually tested in that regard. We do know that the military is willing to assassinate U.S. citizens on foreign soil on nothing more than a Presidential order to do so, so there is cause for grave concern here.

KABA556
10-16-2013, 7:34 PM
Yep. There's a reason the founders (in particular, the anti-Federalists) distrusted a standing army, and wanted to rely on the militia for common defense. They learned from history. They knew where a standing army would lead.

Our guys in the military service right now might not be willing to carry out orders against the citizenry on U.S. soil, but we won't know until they're actually tested in that regard. We do know that the military is willing to assassinate U.S. citizens on foreign soil on nothing more than a Presidential order to do so, so there is cause for grave concern here.



Watch some of the interviews of Oklahoma National Guard who were sent to New Orleans during Katrina.

One former Guardsmen even said, "if anybody had resisted when we were going door to door to take guns, we would have killed them."

He said that they were all young, gung ho, and eager to rock and roll.


There's something fundamentally wrong with allowing children to serve in the military... Yes, children... There are numerous 17 year olds in the military who joined with parental permission... Also, you cannot rent a car until you're 25, you cannot buy a handgun or an NFA item until you're 21, you cannot drink until you're 21... The military should be prohibited from recruiting anybody under the age of 21 [we might even say 22 or 25]. However, if they were unable to get people at 17-19, they would rapidly find themselves without recruits.

I've had some people explicitly tell me that they were joining because they wanted action and they wanted combat and they wanted to kill [generally these are people around 17-18 years old]. I felt the same way when I was 17, I thought it might be exciting to get into the military and fight in a war, fortunately I didn't join and one of my relatives who was a Marine in an infantry unit in Vietnam told me that there was no glory, it was not a movie, there was no parade waiting back home, and all he accomplished by being there was killing people and having to watch his friends die and that he sees it every night when he sleeps.

The government basically preys on young people who have a very naive view of the world and don't really understand what war is about, they think it will be some low risk adventure like Gulf War 1, or it will be a game like COD, they'll get money for college, and while some people might get killed or wounded, surely they won't be amongst the casualties and they'll come back fine and dandy with a full bank account.


I would tend to wonder about young men, 17-19, who are not at least somewhat interested in the idea of joining the military or who don't at least once think about the idea of running off to join the French Foreign Legion... If they're still having pleasant daydreams about war when they're 25 I would wonder about their wisdom and discernment, or lack thereof.




America is not immune to the issues that have impacted other nations. American soldiers will kill American civilians if the order is given by those in authority above them.

It is not the army of the American people, it is the army of the American government.


When the East German communist regime was starting to collapse there were massive protests in Leipzig. Large numbers of military and internal security/police units were deployed to monitor and contain the protests, but they were not told to open fire on them although there was the possibility that such a thing would happen because Honnecker desperately wanted a "Chinese solution" [i.e. Tiannamen Square] in Leipzig to crush the growing dissident movement and head-off a potential revolution. Years after the wall came down one former East German Army colonel was interviewed and asked why he didn't have his regiment attack the protesters in Leipzig, why he didn't have a massacred carried out, he replied, "no such order was given." When they asked him if he would have passed along such an order to his regiment and carried out the order, he only said, "no such order was given."

The implication was clear, if such an order had been issued by the Politburo or the Central Committee of the SED [Socialist Unity Party] the order would have been carried out.

kcbrown
10-16-2013, 8:15 PM
America is not immune to the issues that have impacted other nations. American soldiers will kill American civilians if the order is given by those in authority above them.

It is not the army of the American people, it is the army of the American government.


I have made the above argument many times. The most common refrain is "it can't happen here".

I assure you, it can. And with people believing that "it can't happen here", it will, for the only thing that can possibly prevent it from happening is the vigilance that comes from the realization that it can happen here. Learn from history, or watch that which you love burn to the ground.

In any case, the above is why any effort to restore liberty through violent conflict is almost certain to fail. This is why I believe that liberty is finished. It is only because the nature of liberty is that it must be fought for no matter what that I fight for it in the face of such incredibly minuscule odds of success.

KABA556
10-16-2013, 8:31 PM
I have made the above argument many times. The most common refrain is "it can't happen here".

I assure you, it can. And with people believing that "it can't happen here", it will, for the only thing that can possibly prevent it from happening is the vigilance that comes from the realization that it can happen here. Learn from history, or watch that which you love burn to the ground.

In any case, the above is why any effort to restore liberty through violent conflict is almost certain to fail. This is why I believe that liberty is finished. It is only because the nature of liberty is that it must be fought for no matter what that I fight for it in the face of such incredibly minuscule odds of success.


The refrain of "it can't happen here" is usually heard from people who 10-20 years later are not able to reflect on their earlier words because they are gone because it happened and they were caught up in it.


The idea of "it can't happen here" is simply denial.

We see this with liberals who declare they don't need a weapon for home defense because, "this is a nice neighborhood, it can't happen here."

Crime can happen anywhere and tyranny can happen anywhere.

John M
10-16-2013, 9:53 PM
It really disturbs me to read some of the comments on this thead. Especially the ones encouraging the OP to ignore the law and knowingly break more laws. This is a Pro 2A forum, not anti law enforcement or anti government! There are many laws we dont like, and or agree with, but the answer is not to ignore them! All this does is fuel the the fire of the Nancy Pelosi's and Diane Feinsteins of the world. I would bet they troll these sites as well.

kcbrown
10-16-2013, 10:02 PM
It really disturbs me to read some of the comments on this thead. Especially the ones encouraging the OP to ignore the law and knowingly break more laws. This is a Pro 2A forum, not anti law enforcement or anti government! There are many laws we dont like, and or agree with, but the answer is not to ignore them! All this does is fuel the the fire of the Nancy Pelosi's and Diane Feinsteins of the world. I would bet they troll these sites as well.

I don't know who is encouraging him to break existing laws.

But there is a substantial difference between advising people to adhere to the law and having no sympathy or compassion for someone who already has broken it.

I do not advise violation of the law. But as I said earlier, to insist that someone who does violate the law deserves the consequences merely because the law was broken elevates adherence to the law above ethical behavior. And that is something I cannot countenance.

John M
10-16-2013, 10:22 PM
So what your advocating is to obey the law, but if you happen to break it and dont agree with the punishment, then its ok to ignore it?

BTW, you can re-read all the posts and answer your own questions..

I don't know who is encouraging him to break existing laws.

I think the lack of compassion comes from the story itself. Not his gun, the tow truck driver found it, his lawyer advised him to take the deal, what next????

kcbrown
10-16-2013, 10:32 PM
So what your advocating is to obey the law, but if you happen to break it and dont agree with the punishment, then its ok to ignore it?


No, if you happen to break it then you may suffer the consequences of it, but that does not mean that those consequences are deserved. The latter is an ethical judgment, not a factual one.

As for it being "OK" to ignore it, that depends entirely on the law. Now you're introducing ethics into the picture, and the answer to that is going to depend on whether or not the law in question is itself ethical, and whether violation of that law is unethical.


Ignoring the consequences of violation of the law will not magically prevent one from suffering them should one violate the law, and one would be an idiot to argue otherwise. Since that is not what anyone here is arguing, we're back to the ethical questions all of this raises.


If you believe that avoiding violation of the law takes ethical precedence over ethical behavior, then you are an agent of tyranny, for it means that you would do anything to avoid violation of the law, including killing your fellow man if that proved to be necessary to adhere to the law. That is a path that has been followed before, and relatively recently at that. The end result has been, and will be, the worst kind of tyranny.

John M
10-16-2013, 10:39 PM
Good grief

opos
10-17-2013, 7:45 AM
I've lived in California a very long time and over the years of reading and hearing about stories like this one thing becomes very clear....If you live here and choose to "push the laws" and you get caught....it's gonna hurt. I lived in San Francisco in the 60's (yep I'm one that remembers the 60's in San Francisco) and I traveled most of Northern California during that time...I always carried...loaded...in the car when traveling...never got caught but that did not make things right...much more tolerant of things then but I was knowingly breaking the law and had I been caught It would have been a bad situation.

I lived in LA in the 70's and early 80's...same scenario...traveled So. Cal all the time as well as Arizona and Nevada....again, always carried loaded in the car and frequently had a snub on me or in my briefcase...Again...I was knowingly breaking the law and was pushing the envelope.

An old saying...you can do anything you want as long as you are willing to pay the consequences...falling back on "it isn't fair" or trying to interpret the 2nd Amendment to fit a persons law breaking just doesn't wash...I agree...it's not fair that I can't do lots of things in California that I'd be perfectly legal doing in Nebraska or Kansas or any other lenient Mid Western state....but the fact is that I live here (I could move...so I'm here by choice) and living here says I can't carry a loaded weapon in my car of on my person and if I do....and I get caught...it's all on me...nobody else and it's "fair" because it's the law.

I drank to excess for many years...I had many run in's with the law over that during that period...I felt it was unfair that they kept "picking on me" for open container and DUI...I'm just lucky I didn't kill someone or myself...were they wrong for busting me ? Of course not...we got a legal limit...if I'm over that limit I'm off to jail and it's my fault...not the party host, not the bartender and not the LEO....may be unfair to some but it's damn well the law.

Good luck with court and penalties...it's "gonna leave a mark"

Shorthair
10-17-2013, 8:13 AM
I must say opos is right on on this one. A loaded handgun in the center console of your vehicle is just risky in this state. It would be awsome if the laws in California were more like Nebraskas but they are not. I think I would be pretty pissed at my wife for leaving the gun in the vehicle and putting me in harms way legally. I agree that the laws here are unfair. However, the law is the law. Moving from Nebraska to California 10 years ago I had to school myself on a lot of gun law crap that I would rather not have to deal with, but I do. I sincerely hope things go well for the OP but I am really struggling to find simpathy, given the rather nonchalant manner in which the pistol was regularly transported and thus subsequently forgotten by his wife. I know where all of my guns are at all times. I would feel more secure having a pistol in my vehicle every day when I leave the house for work, but I choose not too based on a risk vs. reward assesment I have made regarding this practice. The Op was (apparently?) not aware that a loaded gun was in his vehicle that day. Sorry to be a hard ***. The tow truck driver was just a random person in the life of the OP that day that COULD have just put the unsecured and loaded firearm in his pocket and walked way. Then what.......?

opos
10-17-2013, 8:51 AM
Had occasion to travel to San Juan PR back in the 70's for a business "rewards" trip...we wanted to drive up the island to Ponce and look at Morro Castle on the way...rented a car from some local car agency (not a known or major rental firm)...we were driving along near Old San Juan headed for the Castle when a car came roaring up behind us with his lights blinking and honking the horn....We were in a very unfamiliar location and it was a bit disconcerting but we pulled over...here came the guy from the rental car place and said he needed to get something he'd left in the car...he reached into the glove box and pulled out a loaded handgun...said he'd been to the bank the day before and for got to take the gun out.I'm really lucky we had asked directions and he had drawn out a little map so he had a good idea where we probably were.....We found out later on that having a concealed and loaded gun in Puerto Rico at that time in life would have probably been 10 years minimum with a huge fine.....That's enough to get my attention...scared the hell out of us...Just never know but again, had we been caught that way the LEO's would have no choice but to take us in...we might have been able to explain or maybe not...I just don't push the limits on my own..too easy just to have a mistake catch up with us.

A side note...I shoot at an indoor range and call me over cautious but when I am coming and going...the guns are unloaded..they are locked with a gun lock and the bag is locked on the outside...no magazines or ammo with them ....they are not in the passenger area in my SUV. I have no idea if the guy parked next to me is a LEO "looking for violations" or not...so I do exactly what the law says I need to do...takes a few minutes more but it's correct.

mage
10-17-2013, 9:28 AM
I do not advise violation of the law. But as I said earlier, to insist that someone who does violate the law deserves the consequences merely because the law was broken elevates adherence to the law above ethical behavior. And that is something I cannot countenance.

So what your advocating is to obey the law, but if you happen to break it and dont agree with the punishment, then its ok to ignore it?


The second quote is a reply to the first.

I don't see any ambiguity in the statement "I do not advise violation of the law."

KABA556
10-17-2013, 10:11 AM
I

An old saying...you can do anything you want as long as you are willing to pay the consequences...falling back on "it isn't fair" or trying to interpret the 2nd Amendment to fit a persons law breaking just doesn't wash...I agree...it's not fair that I can't do lots of things in California that I'd be perfectly legal doing in Nebraska or Kansas or any other lenient Mid Western state....but the fact is that I live here (I could move...so I'm here by choice) and living here says I can't carry a loaded weapon in my car of on my person and if I do....and I get caught...it's all on me...nobody else and it's "fair" because it's the law.





What do you say to people who were born in California and are too poor to be able to move? The people who are working paycheck to paycheck, barely paying their bills, and cannot just up and leave and they cannot save up and leave because they have no money to save?

Poverty in the USA is a major impediment to being able to leave poorly run and unjust states such as California, New York, New Jersey, etc.


If the law declares that anybody with a Bible is to be sent to a gulag and you are caught with a Bible and sent to a gulag does that make it "fair" because it was the "law."

A law that is contrary to the Constitution or to the idea of natural rights is an abomination and is no law.

mofojoe
10-17-2013, 10:14 AM
What do you say to people who were born in California and are too poor to be able to move? The people who are working paycheck to paycheck, barely paying their bills, and cannot just up and leave and they cannot save up and leave because they have no money to save?

Poverty in the USA is a major impediment to being able to leave poorly run and unjust states such as California, New York, New Jersey, etc.


If the law declares that anybody with a Bible is to be sent to a gulag and you are caught with a Bible and sent to a gulag does that make it "fair" because it was the "law."

A law that is contrary to the Constitution or to the idea of natural rights is an abomination and is no law.

If they're too poor to move and living paycheck to paycheck ? Oh this makes me soooooo sad.

KABA556
10-17-2013, 10:34 AM
If they're too poor to move and living paycheck to paycheck ? Oh this makes me soooooo sad.



I have a friend who was living in a flop house in Long Beach and finally managed to get out of California and move to Missouri, but prior to being helped out of California he was largely stuck.

The land of the free, where you're free to be a wage slave and work yourself to death in a state that infringes most of your natural rights.

All the "compassionate" conservatives like you can do is snicker and sneer. If you're what passes for a pro-gun/conservative in this nation then there is no hope for America.


And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.



I believe that on the day of judgment a great many people are going to hear, "DEPART FROM ME! I NEVER KNEW YOU!" and they will be absolutely and thoroughly crushed and despondent beyond belief, and it will be a truly amazing and wondrous day.

Shorthair
10-17-2013, 1:20 PM
Wage slave? How many people in the U.S. starve to death each year? How many are forced at gunpoint to go to work? How many people are beheaded for religious beliefs? How many books are illegal to own? How many are turned away at the border when they try to emigrate? How many are refused medical care at an ER? How many Americans are kidnapped or tortured by drug cartels? How many Americans live in relocation camps due to political unrest? Point being, this is a pretty good place to live, even for "wage slaves". Most wage slave still live in what many in this world would consider total luxury. Cable TV, Mocrowave ovens, clean drinking water, flush toilets, safe food to eat, governement assistance. The world has always had the poor and always will. Compared to 98% of the worlds population the working poor in the united States are overwieght, well entertained and still free to get an education and improve quality of life just like the rest of us "rich Republicans". Most Americans already work for the Government or are recieving some level of assistance from it. That is not compassion, it is socialism.

And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

KABA556
10-17-2013, 1:46 PM
Wage slave? How many people in the U.S. starve to death each year? How many are forced at gunpoint to go to work? How many people are beheaded for religious beliefs? How many books are illegal to own? How many are turned away at the border when they try to emigrate? How many are refused medical care at an ER? How many Americans are kidnapped or tortured by drug cartels? How many Americans live in relocation camps due to political unrest? Point being, this is a pretty good place to live, even for "wage slaves". Most wage slave still live in what many in this world would consider total luxury. Cable TV, Mocrowave ovens, clean drinking water, flush toilets, safe food to eat, governement assistance. The world has always had the poor and always will. Compared to 98% of the worlds population the working poor in the united States are overwieght, well entertained and still free to get an education and improve quality of life just like the rest of us "rich Republicans". Most Americans already work for the Government or are recieving some level of assistance from it. That is not compassion, it is socialism.

And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.



My grandfather spent 20 years grinding asbestos and the head of the company looted the entire pension fund and fled the state. All my grandfather got for his work was asbestosis and no pension. The government never did anything against the looter in question but you can sure bet if the workers had gone after the looter that the police would have protected the looter.


This is 2013, there's no reason to work hard in America, other people will take what you earn and leave you sick and penniless. I don't feel the need or desire to do anything beyond seeing to my own immediate needs and making enough to further a few hobbies. I don't see why innovators should innovate when they are going have their work pillaged by bureaucrats. I would like to see all of the makers and producers simply stop making and producing. I would like to see a nationwide strike by workers, producers, farmers, ranchers, tax-payers. I would like to see farmers refuse to bring their produce to the market until the government dissolves the agencies that try to control and dominate agriculture, telling them when they can plant, what they can plant, how much GMO food they have to grow, who they have to buy their seeds from, how many fields must be left fallow, etc.



If you own 20 acres of land and decide that you want to raise chickens and have a few cows [just enough for your family and perhaps some extra to barter with] and you're not interested in working in a corporate or government job expect to be homeless or in prison within a few years...

When you don't have money to pay property taxes for the land that you supposedly own, the government will send armed men with guns to take away your land, which clearly never belonged to you in the first place. Property ownership in America is a cruel joke, an empty dream, you are simply a glorified renter. Fall behind on your property taxes, whether from injury, illness, accident, or whatever it may be, and your world will be turned upside down.


It is like doing business in a town controlled by the mafia. They want their protection money, they don't care if you had a bad week or had a fire, pay them now, or else!


The idea of America still existing as a Constitutional Republic is a joke and it does not warrant a response. The American Dream has morphed into the American nightmare.

Shorthair
10-17-2013, 1:52 PM
My grandfather spent 20 years grinding asbestos and the head of the company looted the entire pension fund and fled the state. All my grandfather got for his work was asbestosis and no pension. The government never did anything against the looter in question but you can sure bet if the workers had gone after the looter that the police would have protected the looter.


This is 2013, there's no reason to work hard in America, other people will take what you earn and leave you sick and penniless. I don't feel the need or desire to do anything beyond seeing to my own immediate needs and making enough to further a few hobbies. I don't see why innovators should innovate when they are going have their work pillaged by bureaucrats. I would like to see all of the makers and producers simply stop making and producing. I would like to see a nationwide strike by workers, producers, farmers, ranchers, tax-payers. I would like to see farmers refuse to bring their produce to the market until the government dissolves the agencies that try to control and dominate agriculture, telling them when they can plant, what they can plant, how much GMO food they have to grow, who they have to buy their seeds from, how many fields must be left fallow, etc.



If you own 20 acres of land and decide that you want to raise chickens and have a few cows [just enough for your family and perhaps some extra to barter with] and you're not interested in working in a corporate or government job expect to be homeless or in prison within a few years...

When you don't have money to pay property taxes for the land that you supposedly own, the government will send armed men with guns to take away your land, which clearly never belonged to you in the first place. Property ownership in America is a cruel joke, an empty dream, you are simply a glorified renter. Fall behind on your property taxes, whether from injury, illness, accident, or whatever it may be, and your world will be turned upside down.


It is like doing business in a town controlled by the mafia. They want their protection money, they don't care if you had a bad week or had a fire, pay them now, or else!

Thank you for setting me straight. I had no idea there was a better place to live. I always though I was as bitter as it gets. You have proven me wrong, good sir

KABA556
10-17-2013, 1:57 PM
Thank you for setting me straight. I had no idea there was a better place to live. I always though I was as bitter as it gets. You have proven me wrong, good sir



If you want more economic freedom move to Singapore, if you're concerned about private property freedom move to Chile, if you're concerned about drug freedom and the right to put any substance you want into your body then move to Portugal.


There are many nations that have substantially more freedom in one or more areas than the USA, but they tend to have issues in other areas.

No nation is perfect, but the idea that the USA is the best nation in the world has no real basis in fact.

The USA is one of the most indebted nations in the world, it is the third most obese nation in the world, it is one of the lowest in the industrial world in regards to education, test scores, literacy.


Switzerland has greater property freedom, greater economic freedom, but less freedom of speech/association, while having comparable firearms freedom [certainly below Texas or Montana but certainly above New York or California].

The point is that the USA is not some picture perfect end all be all nation that is the best the world has ever seen, can see, or will see.

There is an untold amount of room for improvement in the USA. But there probably won't be any improvement because the masses believe their nation is perfect. Perfect people in a perfect nation don't need to improve anything because they're already perfect and everything is great.

kcbrown
10-17-2013, 3:53 PM
There is an untold amount of room for improvement in the USA. But there probably won't be any improvement because the masses believe their nation is perfect. Perfect people in a perfect nation don't need to improve anything because they're already perfect and everything is great.

Exactly. And it is those very same people who believe "it can't happen here".

DFence
10-17-2013, 4:11 PM
Thank you for setting me straight. I had no idea there was a better place to live. I always though I was as bitter as it gets. You have proven me wrong, good sir

Im just glad you got him to actually write his own words instead of cut and paste excerpts from the internet.

Almost can't wait to see what priceless info we shall see next from Kaba and KC :oji:

KABA556
10-17-2013, 4:31 PM
Im just glad you got him to actually write his own words instead of cut and paste excerpts from the internet.

Almost can't wait to see what priceless info we shall see next from Kaba and KC :oji:


I don't cut and paste things from the internet.


You strike me as the sort who would have demanded Socrates be put to death for teaching the youth of Athens to think for themselves.

You'd have been ready to throw stones at Jesus for upsetting the existing social order.


Anything that threatens to upset your delusional worldview must be purged because it is clearly evil.

Bow down before the almighty government, long live tyranny!


:King:

DFence
10-17-2013, 4:44 PM
I don't cut and paste things from the internet.


You strike me as the sort who would have demanded Socrates be put to death for teaching the youth of Athens to think for themselves.

You'd have been ready to throw stones at Jesus for upsetting the existing social order.


Anything that threatens to upset your delusional worldview must be purged because it is clearly evil.

Bow down before the almighty government, long live tyranny!


:King:

WOW

You are some kind of special!

:thumbsup:

Peter W Bush
10-17-2013, 4:53 PM
A good lawyer would have gotten you off with much much less. Someone who isnt me got arrested for possession of a concealed weapon (loaded, on his person). Plead no contest, 1 year summary probation, misdemeanor. $120 fine. Did you already get convicted?

Peter W Bush
10-17-2013, 4:56 PM
Do not ever hire an attorney, their first duty is to the court.
...

You're so wrong its not even funny. Read my post above. A good lawyer can make miracles happen.

LAKings22
10-17-2013, 5:17 PM
You're so wrong its not even funny. Read my post above. A good lawyer can make miracles happen.

I've seen people I know get off with a slap on the wrist for stuff I was convinced will get the locked up. They spent a lot of money but no jail time. One case even made the papers saying the suspect could face upto 20 years in prison, he got off with a fine and 1 year probation.

Peter W Bush
10-17-2013, 5:25 PM
I've seen people I know get off with a slap on the wrist for stuff I was convinced will get the locked up. They spent a lot of money but no jail time. One case even made the papers saying the suspect could face upto 20 years in prison, he got off with a fine and 1 year probation.

Same thing happened with that someone I mentioned. DA looked right at him and said the law he violated (not just CCW) carried a 6 year minimum mandatory prison sentence. Its sad but a good lawyer (and money) make a big difference.

ToxicWaste
01-13-2014, 9:41 PM
The 10 year ban got me a felony, and while you have the ban, don't get caught with a firearm, or you will lose all chances of having your firearm rights restored.

Welcome to California

Jet Setter
01-14-2014, 9:24 PM
That is crappy news. Definitely reach out to good firearms lawyers. I hope things turn around for you.

Tarn_Helm
01-17-2014, 1:26 AM
Well since you already lost your 2a rights you might as well just keep carrying concealed. Really what are the chances of being caught again and what are they going to do, Take away your 2a rights?;)

I would never advocate this course of action . . . ^

. . . which is so illegal . . .

. . . and sensible.
:cool:

We live a time of the criminalization of everything that resembles or is associated with opposition.

But the gubmint doesn't object if people turn themselves into mushbrains with today's super powerful marijuana.

Happy, disarmed, burnt out conformists . . . the ideal citizen of today.
:facepalm:

Ninask
01-17-2014, 2:24 AM
So you're pissed that you broke the law and got caught?

Crimes come with penalties. If more people paid attention to the penalty maybe they would reconsider their actions.

No remorse from me bud.

The only crime I see are the snakes that made this law which is unconstitutional (we have the right to bear arms)
and the judge that screwed this upstanding citizen
A law that is unconstitutional is no law at all

I hope when you get screwed with one of these jackass laws you remember your words today
and I would like to know who the tow company was so I can make sure I never use such a pissant company that would needlessly screw a customer like that

Ninask

Dreaded Claymore
01-17-2014, 8:08 PM
I recently learned that a woman I know keeps a revolver in her car's glove compartment, without a license, even though she lives in a state where carry licenses are freely available. I'm worried that something like this will happen to her.

arsilva32
01-21-2014, 8:39 PM
these are just the rules we have to play by when you decide to live in this state past the age of 21. the rules suck, the punishments are harsh. you play the game, you follow the rules and you wont have to deal with the states punishments.


right but you can be killed or mugged and your wife can be gang raped without proper protection! me id risk state punishment over any of these.

so the choice is 1. abide by these totally unconstitutional laws by being unarmed and at the mercy of criminals that wont follow the same rules.

2. have the means to protect yourself and the life of your wife and kids, but with the possibility of being prosecuted by the state.

i say you have more of a duty to protect your family by choosing #2. even though the prosecution can hinder that ability , being dead there is no ability to protect your family.