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russ69
09-22-2013, 12:13 PM
Thinking about a heavy barrel 243. Maybe a stock Remington Varmint SPS. Better than my 6mmBR using 105 grain match bullets or do I need a faster twist to shoot the real heavies and gain a better advantage?

foxtrotuniformlima
09-22-2013, 1:08 PM
My factory barrel likes the 95gr stuff just fine. I've not tried any 105s though it but as well as it shoots the 95SMKs, I'm not going to rebarrel just yet.

But I have not really stretched them out nor shot them in much wind at all so take that FWIW.

brando
09-22-2013, 1:15 PM
What do you consider "long range"? The .243 is a laser at short to medium ranges because of the velocity, but over distance it doesn't have the mass to compete against heavier bullets. As good as high velocity is, remember that basic physics tells us that high velocity equals high drag too and if a bullet doesn't have very much mass then at high velocity it doesn't have a whole lot of inertia to fight drag. Shoot fast, slow down fast.

Iloveguns
09-22-2013, 1:42 PM
243 is a great cartridge out to 1000+. 105 Berger Hybrids are the ****!

BigBamBoo
09-22-2013, 1:56 PM
You might get away with shooting the Hornady 105 Amax's with a 1:9 1/4 twist .243. I know my friends 1:9 1/4 Remmy would shoot the Amax's.
I doubt you will get the SMK's, VLD's, or DTAC's to run with it.

My last fast twist .243 was a 1:8 twist and I could shoot the 105-115's no problem. Settled on the 107 SMK's just because I had 2000+ of them.

My two 6XC's were 1:7.5 and 1:8 and I could shoot any of the heavies just fine.

Take care, Stan

PS...my last fast twist 6mm's at 1000 yards. Top video is a .243 and bottom is a 6XC. Both using 1:8 twist barrels and 107 SMK's.

vxo71WUP3l0

_KV8JhG0BOY

russ69
09-22-2013, 2:08 PM
What do you consider "long range"? ...

800, 900 and 1000 yards.

Spyder
09-22-2013, 2:55 PM
I'd listen to BigBamBoo. One of the top knowledge guys around.

highpower790
09-22-2013, 5:05 PM
Ask LynnJr...hahaha

mattt
09-22-2013, 5:15 PM
Big fish little ponds

Switchbarrel
09-22-2013, 5:20 PM
Keeping in mind I have no idea what your current platform is or what you're using it for, some immediate thoughts that come to mind...

If you're not completely satisfied with the current 6BR: if the round count isn't ridiculously high, just have it rechambered to .243 if you already have the brass & dies.

More economical yet, have it rechambered to 6mm Dasher. You already have the 6BR brass, fire it one more time as a BR while simultaneously reforming it to Dasher. Easy and economical. I've had two 6BR's rechambered to 6 Dasher and love them. It gives 3030-3050 fps with a 105-108 grain bullet.

If you're happy with the current stock/action/trigger, rebarrel the current setup to .243 (using an 8" twist for a margin of safety), make it a switchbarrel. Changing barrels is easy. Have your recoil lug pinned at the same time if you're using a Remington action.

I don't have a .243 so I can't comment on barrel life personally. But I'm sure you're well aware of the "barrel burner" stories. I presume it must be true to some degree otherwise the stigma wouldn't be there. (I'm not here to discuss it, I don't care either way).

Your BR is typically good for 3000 plus competitive rounds. Dasher usually expected to last over 2000 rounds (seen 2200-2500 reported commonly).

There's literally hundreds of threads out there, this one is interesting, short & sweet-

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php?topic=218424.msg2383988#msg2383988

Just food for more thought.

-Rick

ar15barrels
09-22-2013, 7:50 PM
Thinking about a heavy barrel 243. Maybe a stock Remington Varmint SPS. Better than my 6mmBR using 105 grain match bullets or do I need a faster twist to shoot the real heavies and gain a better advantage?

I have seen the 105 Amax work in most 243 SPS varmint stock barrels.
I don't know about any of the other 105's though as some of them are even longer than the Amax...
It's probably a gun-by-gun basis as to whether it will shoot other 105's or 107's.

6mmintl
09-23-2013, 8:25 AM
You will need a 1x8" twist for the .243 to shoot 105/107 VLD bullets and a spare barrel in about 1800-2000 rounds if you don't want to set it back.

russ69
09-23-2013, 11:24 AM
...It's probably a gun-by-gun basis as to whether it will shoot other 105's or 107's.

If that doesn't work what do you use the 90-95 grain bullets? Will that get the job done (good for 1000 yards)?

ar15barrels
09-23-2013, 4:50 PM
If that doesn't work what do you use the 90-95 grain bullets? Will that get the job done (good for 1000 yards)?

I would not shoot 95SMK's much past 600yds.

LynnJr
09-23-2013, 7:25 PM
Ask LynnJr...hahaha

Most of the more accurate 6 Dashers are not actually using true 8 twist barrels.The Bartlien my father shot a couple world records with was a 8.5 twist and my personal rifle uses a 8.7 twist as does most of the guns built by Mark King.

On your 9.25 twist barrel if its really a 9.25 twist barrel it will shoot the newer Sierra 107's near sea level.The older 107's measured 1.260 inches and longer and the newest ones measure around 1.208 - 1.213 inches long.
Before Patrick Daly became the President of Sierra Bullets we had a lengthy couple of conversations on the Sierra 107's length and related issues.He didn't want to fix it as it fell within spec so most of the button rifled barrel shooters quit using it for benchrest as it would only agg 0.220 at 100 yards which isn't good enough for 600/1000 yard benchrest.
They still work good in cut rifled barrels when properly sorted.

As Rick(SwitchBarrel) is a Benchrest Shooter with some World Records under his belt his advice is of course spot on.

We turn all of our old 6 BR and 6 Dasher barrels into 243,6mm-06 and Catbirds after they have lost there gilt edge accuracy.The 8.7 twists have never key holed on any 103-`108 grain bullet and I have on my shelf a box of most of those.

BigBamBoo and Randall are also correct you can shoot a lighter bullet or test what you want to shoot to see if it will work in your particular barrel.

The 108 Eubers are the longest 6mm match bullets commonly used at extended range and they are 0.050 longer than a DTAC 115 so you can probably skip them.

Randy Robinette is making 6mm Benchrest bullets and they are probably in the top 4 bullets made category 6mm 108gr FB, BC = .51. Made in Niemi carbide dies; 11 ogive/.052″ meplat; .2435 pressure-ring; .2433″ shank. Ideal twist rate: 1:9″; faster twists not recommended.

As you can see they work well in your twist rate and while they say Flat Base he actually makes one with a small boattail on them.I think Randy was working with Henry "The Bullet God" Childs on them but don't quote me on that one.Just remember when using a bullet with a pressure ring to use plenty of neck tension and all will be well.

Your next option if I read your location correctly would be to contact Stu Harvey at Stu's Precision as he is right now finishing up a new batch of 6mm Benchrest bullets that have set several records in his 6BR's and his wildcat.I sent a sample to Henry Childs for evaluation and they can back as good bullets.

The best 6mm longrange bullet made in my opinion is the Spencer 103 and I can send you a sample for testing in your rifle.They are 1.220 long and will not require extensive sorting like most others do.Clay sold his last batch to J Crawford and Myself and will only sell now to shooters with J4 jackets on hand.They run $65 a 100 with shipping but alot of them will spin less than 2 deviation units on a Juenke Machine and I have 1500 that spin under 1 deviation unit.

If you don't have a bucket of J4 jackets and most shoters can't get any right now you can get a Spencer 103 clone from CopperHead bullets out of Australia.As shipping is hard on your pocket book and the exchange rates are bad I would order at least 2500 at a time to help defray costs getting them into the states.

In a nutshell you will have to spin a few of each down your barrel to see what it likes best simply ream out your existing fast twist 6BR.

On a forum such as this one with 99 and 44/100 of the posters not being into extreme accuracy you can PM me about converting your existing 6BR to a 6 Dasher at home.

I would post it here but have recently learned this forum frowns on what is actually winning and prefers to keep things dumb downed so a rookie like 790 doesn't hurt himself.Its a shame but its a necessity here.

russ69
09-23-2013, 7:54 PM
You guys are getting a little ahead of me. I have an off the shelf Savage heavy Bench gun in 6BR. It shoots OK for a factory barrel. I wont do anything with that until I wear the barrel out. I was thinking about a new factory varmint gun in a caliber I find pleasant to shoot. The 243 is about my limit. So I was looking at a Remington but as usual Remington is about 30 years behind what is happening today and only offer a 9.25 twist. I was asking if the 9.25 twist will launch a bullet heavy enough to better a 308 (as example) out to 1000 yards.

toby
09-23-2013, 8:01 PM
^^^Well did you expect a simple straight answer? this is Cal guns you know...LOL^^^

ar15barrels
09-23-2013, 8:16 PM
You guys are getting a little ahead of me. I have an off the shelf Savage heavy Bench gun in 6BR. It shoots OK for a factory barrel. I wont do anything with that until I wear the barrel out. I was thinking about a new factory varmint gun in a caliber I find pleasant to shoot. The 243 is about my limit. So I was looking at a Remington but as usual Remington is about 30 years behind what is happening today and only offer a 9.25 twist. I was asking if the 9.25 twist will launch a bullet heavy enough to better a 308 (as example) out to 1000 yards.

A 95gr SMK about matches a 175smk as you start the 95 going faster, but it has just a slightly lower BC than the 175 so it sheds more velocity.

A 107 trumps a 175 by a good amount as it has a higher BC than a 175 AND it starts faster and keeps it's velocity better...

LynnJr
09-23-2013, 9:00 PM
Russ69
A true 9.25 twist will shoot some of the heavy bullets well.

On the downrange numbers my barrels don't match Randalls numbers.The 95 grain Sierra beats the 107 at 1000 yards by a small amount at peak accuracy velocity and they both beat the 308 by over 40 inches minimum.

My numbers are generated with 28-32 inch barrels so this maybe were the difference is happening?

russ69
09-24-2013, 10:18 AM
Can you post the numbers? Otherwise I have to wait until I get back to California to print out the results. Thanx.

LynnJr
09-24-2013, 8:50 PM
Russ69
The 95 grain bullets made by Sierra and Stu Harvey generally run 145-160 fps faster than the 107's.You can go to the Mr Milners Ballistics website and simply click on the bullet and enter the velocity free of charge.

A 175 Sierra looks like this at 1000 yards.Drop -356.3
A 107 Sierra looks like this at 1000 yards.Drop -258.1
A 95 Sierra looks like this at 1000 yards. Drop -255.3

If you chamber that gun in 6mm-06 it looks like this.Drop -210.6
That is over 140 inches better than a 308 but it heats up a barrel in 3-5 shots.
This is also exactly why You won't see any 308's in a longrange Benchrest match any time soon.

ar15barrels
09-25-2013, 1:24 AM
Russ69
The 95 grain bullets made by Sierra and Stu Harvey generally run 145-160 fps faster than the 107's.You can go to the Mr Milners Ballistics website and simply click on the bullet and enter the velocity free of charge.

A 175 Sierra looks like this at 1000 yards.Drop -356.3
A 107 Sierra looks like this at 1000 yards.Drop -258.1
A 95 Sierra looks like this at 1000 yards. Drop -255.3


Who cares about drop?
All I care about is windage!

Wrangler John
09-25-2013, 4:17 AM
What the platform is, or which cartridge is being considered doesn't have much effect on twist rate. If the bullet is heaver, hence longer, or in the case of either mono-metal copper bullets or compressed powdered metal core bullets (lighter and longer) a fast twist is needed. Sometimes much faster than one would believe.

My experience in experimenting with fast twists using lead free bullets, lighter for length, is that the old conventions are passe. To determine which twist rate is necessary to stabilize the heaviest and/or longest bullet a simple first step is to use one of the available twist calculators.

http://www.bergerbullets.com/litz/TwistRuleAltWP.php

http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmstab-5.1.cgi

Berger Bullets also lists the suggested minimum twist rate for their bullets, with a link to their Twist Rate Calculator as mentioned above.

In my case I began with the idea of using a 6mm PPC USA Sako L-461 Benchrest rifle with the Barnes 62 grain Varmint Grenade, for ground squirrel hunting. However, the 1:14" twist did not stabilize the bullet sufficiently to connect with a 100 yard target. Finally, one bullet did hit the target completely sideways revealing the problem.

So, following Barnes recommendation of a 1:10" or faster twist, I ordered a Shilen 1:10" twist barrel chambered in 6mm PPC for a Savage action. Now it would group, but no greater than 1 -1.5 MOA. Thinking the long bullet in the short throat was taking too much powder capacity, I throated the barrel allowing the bullet to be seated to just above the neck/shoulder junction plus .020" the minimum jump for accuracy with that bullet. Now velocities were up around 3,100 fps with VV-133 and H-322, still no joy.

So I plugged the numbers into the JBM Ballistics twist calculator. The .975" long, .243" diameter, 62 grain Varmint Grenade at 3000 fps was only marginally stable with a Stability Factor of 1.177. Which followed my results of improved consistent accuracy, but not that gilt edge accuracy I was looking for. Next, I plugged in a 1:9" twist and the result was a Stability Factor of 1.453, showing stable and approaching the optimal stability of 1.5. Not satisfied, I went to a 1:8" twist. Bingo, the Stability Factor returned at 1.839, plenty good across a wide range of variables. Now it was time to abandon the 6mm PPC as too small for serious long range hunting, so I ordered a new Brux barrel chambered in .243 WSSM, same stubby fat shape as the PPC, with a 1:8" twist. Bug holes. Even with lead core bullets, down to the 55 grain Nosler - bug holes. At 350 yards squirrels had no chance.

This result was tried with every cartridge I shoot, .204 Ruger = 1:8.5" or 1:9". The .204" 50 and 55 grain Burger shoot exceedingly well while the 26 grain Barnes V.G. and 24 grain Hornady NTX shoot bug holes. .223 Remington, 1:9" twist put the Nosler 40 grain Lead Free through a .206" group. With the 1:9" twist working for both .22-250 Remington and Ackley. The myth of bullets blowing apart from the faster rotational speed, and that of over stabilizing them, was completely disproven.

Now if you look at the Berger bullet chart you will find the heaviest hunting bullet they make, the 115 grain VLD Hunting, is recommended for use in a 1:7" twist. Same for the 115 grain VLD Target. That is the answer to the twist rate issue. 1:7" Twist will stabilize everything including the lighter bullets with no down side. Otherwise, obtain the length of the bullet(s) you plan on using and plug the data into one of the twist calculators, order accordingly.

russ69
09-25-2013, 11:02 AM
Who cares about drop? All I care about is windage!

There is a correlation between drop and windage. Drop has to do with time of flight, reducing your TOF you are also reducing the time that wind can affect your bullet. The 1000 yard drop numbers are really the accurate result of a complex formula for everything the bullet is doing for the full 1000 yards.
For target shooting, it doesn't make much difference if you have to dial in 200 inches of drop or 220 inches of drop, you still have to know your sight settings. Lynn's data shows that the 95 and the 107 are pretty close and the big 30 cal is not as good. If Lynn's velocities are truly representative, that looks promising. I need a second cup of coffee so I might have missed something...

LynnJr
09-25-2013, 4:43 PM
Russ69
You are correct in your analogy and my numbers or based on a straight 243 Winchester with 0.268 neck diameter and 0.108 freebore using Lapua brass.If you want to shoot a mortar go 308 if you want to win matches get something else if the rules allow it.

Wrangler John
Now if you look at the Berger bullet chart you will find the heaviest hunting bullet they make, the 115 grain VLD Hunting, is recommended for use in a 1:7" twist. Same for the 115 grain VLD Target. That is the answer to the twist rate issue. 1:7" Twist will stabilize everything including the lighter bullets with no down side.

As you keep upping the twist rate you lose gilt edge accuracy and velocity plus you add more torque to your equipment.
The Berger 115's had reputation for failing to reach the target and that is when they went with the new thicker jackets.Friction was over heating the jackets and molten lead could be seen on your yaw cards.A puff at 60-90 yards meant your bullet had blown apart in flight.
As twist rate is increased centrifugal force goes up on the bullets jacket.The pressure on my bullets runs around 18,000 psi but if I switch to a light for caliber bullet it goes through the roof.It also causes more dispersion.
I have shot a lot of 115's and have never used a 7 twist barrel.
For a hunting rifle it probably doesn't matter but for competition there is no need to handicap yourself before the first shot is fired.

NorCalFocus
09-25-2013, 5:04 PM
I've been following this thread and its been interesting. So let me pose this question...

So you're comparing the 95g and 105g .243 bullet to the 175g 30 cal. How would a 110g 30 cal compare to the .243?

toby
09-25-2013, 6:00 PM
I've been following this thread and its been interesting. So let me pose this question...

So you're comparing the 95g and 105g .243 bullet to the 175g 30 cal. How would a 110g 30 cal compare to the .243?

No comparison, It is Short,blunt and no high BC's the 6mm is long and sleek. That's high BC's and VLD

russ69
09-25-2013, 8:05 PM
...So you're comparing the 95g and 105g .243 bullet to the 175g 30 cal. How would a 110g 30 cal compare to the .243?

No comparison, It is Short,blunt and no high BC's the 6mm is long and sleek. That's high BC's and VLD

Yes, a light 30 really sucks at long range and if you have been following along, the heavy 308s are not that good compared to a good 6mm. There are plenty of people shooting 30 calibers but not many shoot a 30 if the rules allow something else. 30 cals are really old school, guys that think the 30-06 Springfield was the best rifle ever made. Guys that are stuck in the 50s. The numbers just don't support a 30 cal now that good 6mm bullets are available.

Cypriss32
09-25-2013, 8:13 PM
Yes, a light 30 really sucks at long range and if you have been following along, the heavy 308s are not that good compared to a good 6mm. There are plenty of people shooting 30 calibers but not many shoot a 30 if the rules allow something else. 30 cals are really old school, guys that think the 30-06 Springfield was the best rifle ever made. Guys that are stuck in the 50s. The numbers just don't support a 30 cal now that good 6mm bullets are available.

Id rather shoot my 243 at the range.
Id rather shoot my 30-06 at 2 and 4 leg critters any day.


Lets price it out:

Hornady 500 packs of 105gr BTHP for 96.99 VS 200gr Hybrids at $47.99 per box, or even 175gr SMKS $154.00 per 500. I checked out my prices of primers, bullets and powder. Adding those together to shoot a loaded round of 243 is the same price as JUST BUYING SMK's for 30cal.

Iloveguns
09-25-2013, 9:05 PM
Lets price it out:

Hornady 500 packs of 105gr BTHP for 96.99 VS 200gr Hybrids at $47.99 per box, or even 175gr SMKS $154.00 per 500. I checked out my prices of primers, bullets and powder. Adding those together to shoot a loaded round of 243 is the same price as JUST BUYING SMK's for 30cal.

But what you didnt factor in is round count through the barrel! Depending on how fast you are moving them a normal 243 match barrel will start to drop accuracy at 1500 rounds. A 308 barrel should get at least 4k as long as your not crazy with your loads. At $350 and change for a barrel and about $250 for a chamber job, the cost benefits of components does not really help it to be any cheaper. That being said 243 is my flavor!

Cypriss32
09-25-2013, 9:29 PM
But what you didnt factor in is round count through the barrel! Depending on how fast you are moving them a normal 243 match barrel will start to drop accuracy at 1500 rounds. A 308 barrel should get at least 4k as long as your not crazy with your loads. At $350 and change for a barrel and about $250 for a chamber job, the cost benefits of components does not really help it to be any cheaper. That being said 243 is my flavor!

Gotta pay to play. 2,000 rounds threw 243 and a set back (med palma), 2 setbacks and a new barrel. I dont need to push over 3,000 fps.
If I cant hit it with my 243 I have my 300win mag and 230gr Bergers.

NorCalFocus
09-25-2013, 9:44 PM
Very true on the BCs I didn't think about that. I was also thinking along the lines of barrel life. My next gun is very likely to be a .243. My last one also was.

Cypriss32
09-25-2013, 10:13 PM
The idea of a 6br in a Eliso chassis has me really thinking.

ar15barrels
09-26-2013, 10:21 AM
There is a correlation between drop and windage.

I disagree.

I did a big comparison of cartridges at 1000yds for my "choosing a cartridge" thread.
http://www.caprc.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=34

http://caprc.com/gfx/cartridges.gif

Comparing the 115dtac to the 142smk, the dtac is flatter shooting, but has significantly more wind.
BC realistically trumps velocity at 1000yds when you are looking at wind.

Then, look at 6-06 compared to 284.
Same windage, but the 1000yd elevation is over a mil different.

ar15barrels
09-26-2013, 10:37 AM
There is a correlation between drop and windage.

Shoot a 208amax at 2450fps from a 26" 308 and your 1000yd windage is 6.5moa.
Shoot a 95smk at 3100fps from a 26" 243 and your 1000yd windage is 7.1moa.
The 208amax will take 36.2moa of elevation to get there.
The 95smk will take 24.6moa of elevation to get there.

Show me the correlation of elevation and windage there.

Cypriss32
09-26-2013, 10:58 AM
I love how 7wsm is #1 on your chart. 7wsm stands for bad ***!

russ69
09-26-2013, 11:14 AM
Shoot a 208amax at 2450fps from a 26" 308 and your 1000yd windage is 6.5moa.
Shoot a 95smk at 3100fps from a 26" 243 and your 1000yd windage is 7.1moa.
The 208amax will take 36.2moa of elevation to get there.
The 95smk will take 24.6moa of elevation to get there.

Show me the correlation of elevation and windage there.

Point taken, are you really busting my chops for .6 moa at 1000 yards, lol? I'm guessing in the type of shooting you do, it's better to have less windage to reduce first shot aiming errors. In NRA shooting we get some sighters (usually) so getting close on the first shot is good enough, we can make a sight correction after that. The x-ring is about a moa in diameter, so I guess sometimes I'll have to just settle for a 10, lol. Good info Randall, none the less.

LynnJr
09-26-2013, 11:21 AM
Randall
Your graph doesn't pertain to this post.
You are changing cartridges on us after the fact and it proves nothing.
Maybe we could shoot the 7mm 189 Caterucio's out of necked down 338 Lapua and compare those numbers next?

I thought we were comparing the 243 winchester here not all calibers?
If Russ wants flat shooting I have a Mach V he can use.

ar15barrels
09-26-2013, 6:56 PM
Point taken, are you really busting my chops for .6 moa at 1000 yards, lol?

That's over 6" of difference in wind.
If I can shoot a gun that has 6" less windage at 1000yds, I want that.

ar15barrels
09-26-2013, 7:00 PM
Randall
Your graph doesn't pertain to this post.

You are correct that my graph does not relate to your post #39.
My graph relates directly to Russ's comments in post #25.
I even quoted them right in my post so there would be no question as to what I was responding to...

russ69
09-26-2013, 7:11 PM
That's over 6" of difference in wind.
If I can shoot a gun that has 6" less windage at 1000yds, I want that.

Depending on the gun I'm using, that's just one, or two clicks at the most.

ar15barrels
09-26-2013, 7:16 PM
Depending on the gun I'm using, that's just one, or two clicks at the most.

I don't DIAL windage.
I hold it.

The wind usually changes so fast that dialing it puts you into a place where you are stuck waiting for the wind condition to re-appear.
I have to fire within a short time frame and don't have the luxury of waiting for my desired wind conditions.

wooger
09-26-2013, 7:20 PM
Wow, an amazing thread! :)

Cypriss32
09-26-2013, 7:22 PM
Maybe we could shoot the 7mm 189 Caterucio's out of necked down 338 Lapua and compare those numbers next?


There is always something better.

LynnJr
09-26-2013, 8:43 PM
When the 175 SMK was mentioned earlier the data I supplied was for the .308 diameter 30 caliber bullets and not the 7mm version.
I don't want anyone confusing my numbers.

Wrangler John
09-27-2013, 7:57 AM
Russ69
You are correct in your analogy and my numbers or based on a straight 243 Winchester with 0.268 neck diameter and 0.108 freebore using Lapua brass.If you want to shoot a mortar go 308 if you want to win matches get something else if the rules allow it.

Wrangler John
Now if you look at the Berger bullet chart you will find the heaviest hunting bullet they make, the 115 grain VLD Hunting, is recommended for use in a 1:7" twist. Same for the 115 grain VLD Target. That is the answer to the twist rate issue. 1:7" Twist will stabilize everything including the lighter bullets with no down side.

As you keep upping the twist rate you lose gilt edge accuracy and velocity plus you add more torque to your equipment.
The Berger 115's had reputation for failing to reach the target and that is when they went with the new thicker jackets.Friction was over heating the jackets and molten lead could be seen on your yaw cards.A puff at 60-90 yards meant your bullet had blown apart in flight.
As twist rate is increased centrifugal force goes up on the bullets jacket.The pressure on my bullets runs around 18,000 psi but if I switch to a light for caliber bullet it goes through the roof.It also causes more dispersion.
I have shot a lot of 115's and have never used a 7 twist barrel.
For a hunting rifle it probably doesn't matter but for competition there is no need to handicap yourself before the first shot is fired.

We certainly have differing experiences in this regard. I never had a single bullet self-destruct from rotation forces, but have had lightly constructed commercial bullets puff out or "vapor trail" from excessive velocity even in standard or slow twist barrels. In every case I have experience with, all weight bullets have performed exceptionally in fast twist barrels. I have also found that long range performance is equal to or better than slow twist performance. Interestingly, the powdered metal core bullets seem to be more immune to frictional heat and other forces that destabilize lead core bullets, the same for monolithic copper bullets. Even my own .284" 113 grain open-point bullets swagged using redrawn .30 cal jackets could be driven at high velocities in a 1:8" twist barrel chambered in 7mm Remington Magnum with no failures and superb accuracy.

I read over David Tubb's experience with the 6XC cartridge prior to selecting the twist for my long range varmint rifles in 6mm, when developing the Tubb 2000 Rifle he mentioned using both the 1:8" and 1:7.5" twists:

Field Testing at 1000 Yards
I shot four different 6XC barrels (three were 7.5 twists and one 8 twist) this past season and they all shot the same. I did quite a bit of testing at 1000 yards -- 20-shot groups prone -- and the best group (27-inch barrel, 7.5 twist) was 5.5 inches elevation for 20 shots (group was about 15 inches wide -- wind was blowing but somewhat steady and the target was marked after each shot).

Tubb worked with Rock McMillan in developing the Tubb 2000 rifle which has become the McMillan ALIAS Target Rifle. Currently listed specifications for the 6XC chambering a 1:7.5" twist is used. However, Tubb specified Gary Schneider polygonal rifled barrel blanks, which may have had some effect on the result.

After confirming this data with the JBM Stability Calculator, I selected the 1:8" twist as a compromise because that twist was a standard twist in stock, while the 1:7.5 or 1:7" was special order in most cases. In addition my specification was for one particular bullet, the 6mm Barnes Varmint Grenade, which was more than adequately stabilized. At 3,584 fps this bullet is capable of sub .5" at 100 yards, while other lead core bullets perform similarly with no bullet failures. Whatever additional spindrift is associated with the faster twist should be consistent and easily corrected for. I submit that requirements for varmint hunting bullets are as precise and stringent as target competition, and given the various presentations of small varmints, the shifting environmental factors, elevation changes and lighting conditions, maybe more so.

My conclusion is that if the 7.5" twist is suitable in the 6XC at 1000 yards with a 115 grain bullet, then the faster twists on both sides (1:8" & 1:7") should pose few problems, as noted here:

http://www.6mmbr.com/catalog/item/1308478/799896.htm

I would tend to follow Berger's recommendation if that particular 115 grain VLD bullet was intended for use.

ar15barrels
09-27-2013, 10:14 AM
I always order my 6mm match rifle blanks in 1:7.75 twist so that I can shoot any commonly available 6mm bullet on the market.
105's are about as light as I go though as anything lighter won't have the BC I'm looking for.

LynnJr
09-27-2013, 1:52 PM
Wrangler John
You should write a letter to Winchester,Remington,Browning,Marlin,Savage,Ruger, Tika,McMillan and a host of others and tell there engineering departments they only need to use the fastest twist barrels available for all there rifles.
Tell them rather than stocking several different twist rates in each chambering they only need the fastest twist rate and see what they say.

MongooseV8
09-27-2013, 3:09 PM
Im not looking to start/contribute to an argument but:

I am building a 243 AI with a 1:9 twist barrel. I plan to shoot 105 grainers in the range of 3000-3150 fps. I will also be shooting a crapton of 55 grain Nosler BT Varmint bullets in the 4050-4200 fps range.

While a faster twist can stabilize all current bullet weights there are 2 downsides that I am aware of.
1: Increased friction with 4k+ fps bullets will heat up the barrel quicker
2: Increased friction with 4k+ fps bullets will wear our the barrel quicker

So a slower twist rate has its place for us that shoot thousands of screaming bullets each year =)

As to the OP, if you can swing an Ackley Improved version of the 243 you should be totally fine with heavy bullets and a 1:9.25 twist as a result of the extra velocity.

russ69
09-27-2013, 3:37 PM
Wrangler John
You should write a letter to Winchester, Remington, Browning, Marlin, Savage, Ruger, Tika, McMillan and a host of others and tell there engineering departments they only need to use the fastest twist barrels available for all there rifles. Tell them rather than stocking several different twist rates in each chambering they only need the fastest twist rate and see what they say.

Your are missing the point. Many older cartridges have been developed for the needs of hunters. They buy way more rifles compared to us target shooters. In this thread, back in the day, the 243 was seen as a combo deer/varmint cartridge, one rifle to do everything. Nobody ever dreamed about a 1000 yard 243 with 115 grain bullets. Back then you shot your deer with a 30-06 and you were happy, happy, happy. Only women and children would use a 243 for deer. Back then a 70 grain load was a heavy bullet. Only recently heavy target bullets in 22, 243, 6.5mm have become available. Some manufacturers are keeping up to date and offering faster twist barrels in 22 and other diameters but the general population is not interested in 1000 yard performance so there is some sales resistance to twist rates that are quicker than the traditional use. Gun owners have a lot of tradition built into their buying decisions.
Things will change in the future but one look at a Remington catalog will tell you that Remington is still 40 years behind the target world.

russ69
09-27-2013, 3:42 PM
As to the OP, if you can swing an Ackley Improved version of the 243 you should be totally fine with heavy bullets and a 1:9.25 twist as a result of the extra velocity.

I'm more likely to chamber a 6BRX or a Dasher, than a 1950s powder burner like the 243AI. The 243 is already too much powder.

MongooseV8
09-27-2013, 4:42 PM
No doubt the Dasher family is more efficient, but I want the extra 100-200 fps.

toby
09-27-2013, 4:42 PM
I'm more likely to chamber a 6BRX or a Dasher, than a 1950s powder burner like the 243AI. The 243 is already too much powder.

Well you started the thread with that round, and it's still the one to follow. It's the original and still going strong. Even though I know you have been here I'm gonna leave it for entertainment value anyway.http://www.6mmbr.com/reloadingforum.html

russ69
09-27-2013, 5:46 PM
Well you started the thread with that round, and it's still the one to follow. It's the original and still going strong. Even though I know you have been here I'm gonna leave it for entertainment value anyway.http://www.6mmbr.com/reloadingforum.html

Yeah, I have and shoot a 6BR, I like it a lot. If Remington made a heavy barrel fast twist varmint rifle in 6BR, I wouldn't have started this thread. My first rifle was a 243, I have a soft spot for that round but I'm looking to shoot "heavy" bullets at long distances. I'm not home with all my data books, I'm going to have to look at some numbers when I get back to my reference library and see if the 9.125 twist will work for me.

Cypriss32
09-27-2013, 5:59 PM
Im not looking to start/contribute to an argument but:

I am building a 243 AI with a 1:9 twist barrel. I plan to shoot 105 grainers in the range of 3000-3150 fps. I will also be shooting a crapton of 55 grain Nosler BT Varmint bullets in the 4050-4200 fps range.

While a faster twist can stabilize all current bullet weights there are 2 downsides that I am aware of.
1: Increased friction with 4k+ fps bullets will heat up the barrel quicker
2: Increased friction with 4k+ fps bullets will wear our the barrel quicker

So a slower twist rate has its place for us that shoot thousands of screaming bullets each year =)

As to the OP, if you can swing an Ackley Improved version of the 243 you should be totally fine with heavy bullets and a 1:9.25 twist as a result of the extra velocity.

My friend had a 243 (NON-AI) It had a 1-9tw we shot some of the 55-65gr bullets and they didnt make it to the target. VMAX and Nosler's. We were getting a good 1 or 2 out of 20.

Cypriss32
09-27-2013, 6:01 PM
I'm more likely to chamber a 6BRX or a Dasher, than a 1950s powder burner like the 243AI. The 243 is already too much powder.

What Kind of Loads are you shooting threw your 6br russ?

russ69
09-27-2013, 7:18 PM
What Kind of Loads are you shooting threw your 6br russ?

A Sierra 107 grain with a light load of H4895. I don't have my data book with me. It still needs some tuning.

Cypriss32
09-27-2013, 8:43 PM
A Sierra 107 grain with a light load of H4895. I don't have my data book with me. It still needs some tuning.

You prefer H4895 over Varget?

Wrangler John
09-28-2013, 6:44 AM
Wrangler John
You should write a letter to Winchester,Remington,Browning,Marlin,Savage,Ruger, Tika,McMillan and a host of others and tell there engineering departments they only need to use the fastest twist barrels available for all there rifles.
Tell them rather than stocking several different twist rates in each chambering they only need the fastest twist rate and see what they say.

LynnJr:

Your answer is a non sequitur, a statement (as a response) that does not follow logically from or is not clearly related to anything previously said.

Factory rifle interior ballistics are set by tradition and compromise to allow for the high probability of satisfactory function over the possible range of available bullet compositions, weights and styles, and often were completely wrong. This being true, we have examples of factory ballisticians, or engineers, making decisions that literally caused the failure of a newly introduced cartridge often to the point that they guaranteed the success of a competitor's cartridge.

Because we are discussing 6mm cartridges, lets examine one failure of factory decision making. In the history of 6mm cartridges, there is no greater example of this than the .244 Remington. In 1955 Remington (following on Fred Huntington's design) necked down the .257 Roberts to 6mm calling it the .244 Remington. The original Model 722 rifle was manufactured using a 1:12" twist to work with Remington 75 grain bullet for varmint and 90 grain bullet for deer. Remington never loaded any factory .244 cartridges with bullets heavier than 90 grains. However, that twist rate would not stabilize heavier 100 and 105 grain bullets, leading to poor accuracy and a black eye for the .244 Remington.

Needless to say, sales lagged due to the fact that Winchester had also introduced the .243 Winchester in 1955, based on the necked down .308 Winchester case. The .243 Winchester specified a 1:10" twist barrel that was capable of stabilizing the 100 and 105 grain bullets, and while it lacked the ballistic superiority of the larger .244 Remington case, it became the runaway sales leader.

Remington countered in 1963 by renaming the .244 Remington as the 6mm Remington, in every way the exact same cartridge, but this time rifles were manufactured with a 1:9" twist fast enough to stabilize the 100 grain and 105 grain bullets and those specialty bullets even heavier. The engineers this time gave themselves a cushion opting for an even faster twist than Winchester. So Remington finally admitted, through design adaptation, that the fastest twist available in a factory rifle was the single best performance option. In this case, all they needed was to manufacturer the fastest twist as a one-size-fits-all approach. Best thing was I didn't need to call or write them at all.

Current factory rifles are often manufactured with twists too slow to stabilize available component bullets. One other example being the .204 Ruger. The "industry standard" twist for this cartridge is designated 1:12" which works for many bullets, but not all. Many find that while the Sierra 32 grain Blitz King and Hornady 32 grain V-Max shoot very well, that the Sierra 39 grain Blitz King and/or Hornady 40 grain V-Max show signs of instability. There is no rhyme or reason to which barrels will shoot what bullets well, one that handles the Sierra 39 grain may not handle the Hornady 40 grain, or vice versa. Increasing the twist to 1:11" solves the problem. In my testing a 1:8.5" or 1:9" twist extends the range of stability to the 50 and 55 grain bullets. The little 26 grain Barnes Varmint Grenade in the 1:8.5" twist produces phenomenal accuracy at 4,110 fps with no bullet failures, it does however reduce ground squirrels to a visible shock wave of biological paint.

The original poster asked if the 1:9.25" twist was sufficient for long range shooting. Wherein the discussion devolved into a morass of the typical Internet forum opinions and parroting of accepted dogma. I of course, not having enough wisdom to just smile and pass by without commenting, offered my experience. So, here is my answer restated:

If one is going to build a rifle, or rebarrel, with the goal of long range shooting, then the steps to consider are:

Review what success others are having with various equipment. So far in the arena of 6mm competition out to 1000 yards, we find the 6XC cartridge, a 115 grain TDAC bullet and a 1:7.5" twist have set the record. My hunting small things at longer ranges favors the .243 WSSM with a 62 grain Barnes Varmint Grenade (.975" long bullet) in a 1:8" twist at 3,575 +/- fps. Mike Innis writing in the new Berger manual echos my experience that this is the most accurate cartridge to date, and that out to 300 yards bullet drop can be ignored. I am limited to lead free hunting bullets by California, unlike Mr. Innis.

Select the bullet(s) most likely to fit the purpose. This will likely be a boat tail and/or VLD design of sufficient weight and B.C. to retain stability over the course.

Select the twist rate based on the dimensional and weight measurements, velocity and environmental factors most likely to be encountered. This requires actually measuring the physical bullets, or at least using the manufacturer's bullet length data.

Use one of the twist rate / stability calculators to examine the stability factor of each twist rate, and determine how a range of velocities, elevations and temperatures effect stability. Select the twist rate that remains "in the green" or stays above a Stability Factor of 1.5 over the various barometric pressures and temperatures. I try for keeping the number closer to 2.0, but that's my preference. If we are going to err, err on the side of the faster twist.

When ordering a barrel talk to the manufacturer to determine how close they can hold the actual twist rate to your specifications. Some twists come out less or more than specified, factor that into the equation. Also consider rifling profile, a polygonal or even 5R rifling will likely be easier on bullet distortion than others. Both Gary Schneider and Pac-Nor offer polygonal rifling, although Schneider only offers it in some calibers.

Wrangler John
09-28-2013, 7:37 AM
My friend had a 243 (NON-AI) It had a 1-9tw we shot some of the 55-65gr bullets and they didnt make it to the target. VMAX and Nosler's. We were getting a good 1 or 2 out of 20.

I found the Nosler 55 grain BT Lead Free varmint bullet to be accurate in the .243 WSSM over a charge of Hunter powder in the 26" 1:8" twist Brux barrel I use. The powdered metal core bullets have a core that is more like metallic stick chalk, it does not become plastic as does the lead core varieties. Even so, I have never had a lead core bullet fail in the .243 WSSM.

Since discovering the phenomenal accuracy of these lead free bullets I use them exclusively for varmint hunting. Even the miniscule Hornady .204" 24 grain NTX in a 1:9" or 1:8.5" twist is shooting well under .5" in an AR bolt action. Usually when lead core bullets fail it is because of high pressures or velocities, or both since they are related.

russ69
09-28-2013, 11:39 AM
You prefer H4895 over Varget?

I haven't been able to find any Varget for the last year.

LynnJr
09-28-2013, 10:56 PM
Russ69
I didn't miss his point but he did just change it.In his post he recommended the fast twist barrel for the lightweight bullets and said accuracy would not suffer.If that was true which it isn't all the factory rifles would only come with 7 twist barrels which they don't and for good reason.

I won't post my 6BR load that has 5 world records under its belt as some would want the thread deleted.The next node down is 30.5 grains of Varget CCI 450 Magnum Primer Lapua brass neck turned for 0.001 clearance in a 0.268 chamber using Spencer 103 vlds.

Wrangler John
I am familiar with the 243 244 debate and history.
In your earlier post you mentioned no accuracy loss from the faster twist and I don't agree with that statement.If you keep reading I am not the only one experiencing bullet failures.
I concur with your latest post not your earlier post.

Russ69 Again
My 6 Dasher load has set a record or two and beat everyone at the famous 2010 nbrsa 1000 yard nationals.
I am using 15 grains of red dot over a Fed 205 soft primer with lubed brass and expanded then swaged down necks and filled with cream of wheat for fireforming.
I then use 33.5 grains of RE15 over a CCI 450 Magnum primer 0.003 neck tension and a Clay Spencer 103 spun to less than 2 deviation units on a Juenke for my match loads.Velocity is 3050 fps in a 30 inch Bartlien 8.5-8.7 twist and accuracy is world class.

ar15barrels
09-29-2013, 12:25 AM
I haven't been able to find any Varget for the last year.

You LOST your varget?
All 16lbs of my varget is right on my shelf where I left it.

Wrangler John
09-29-2013, 12:40 AM
Russ69
I didn't miss his point but he did just change it.In his post he recommended the fast twist barrel for the lightweight bullets and said accuracy would not suffer.If that was true which it isn't all the factory rifles would only come with 7 twist barrels which they don't and for good reason.

I won't post my 6BR load that has 5 world records under its belt as some would want the thread deleted.The next node down is 30.5 grains of Varget CCI 450 Magnum Primer Lapua brass neck turned for 0.001 clearance in a 0.268 chamber using Spencer 103 vlds.

Wrangler John
I am familiar with the 243 244 debate and history.
In your earlier post you mentioned no accuracy loss from the faster twist and I don't agree with that statement.If you keep reading I am not the only one experiencing bullet failures.
I concur with your latest post not your earlier post.

Russ69 Again
My 6 Dasher load has set a record or two and beat everyone at the famous 2010 nbrsa 1000 yard nationals.
I am using 15 grains of red dot over a Fed 205 soft primer with lubed brass and expanded then swaged down necks and filled with cream of wheat for fireforming.
I then use 33.5 grains of RE15 over a CCI 450 Magnum primer 0.003 neck tension and a Clay Spencer 103 spun to less than 2 deviation units on a Juenke for my match loads.Velocity is 3050 fps in a 30 inch Bartlien 8.5-8.7 twist and accuracy is world class.

Well, we are making some progress, not that it matters. I can not, of course, deny that my experience with light bullets in fast twists is as I represented - they just shoot phenomenally. It is what it is, so let's continue to disagree.

In continuing to read your reply, I immediately recognized the name Juenke. Brought back some memories. I recall Vern Juenke and his son (John?) making the rounds of IHMSA Silhouette matches back in the late 1970's and '80's. Vern brought along his comparator (or was it a concentricity) machine to the matches demonstrating it for those interested. At one match, I had fired perfect 40x40's in Production and Unlimited, along with another competitor. When Juenke Jr. arrived he looked at the scoreboard and decided not to compete. That taught me that match pressure, human psychology, is as important as hardware and loading. Really, what's the worse thing that can happen? I was never as glad to lose a match by one point when a local competitor at Port Orford won his first ever match - he was ecstatic, causing his wife and kids to jump up and down. It was all good. Never look at the scoreboard, or leader board in golf, just go have fun. When I shot the aforementioned Unlimited match using my Wichita bolt action pistol, and homemade jacketed bullets, I decided to make the little critters dance. So I shot the chickens in the tail or breast, to make them pirouette, the pigs in the legs to make them bow off or to sit down in the rear, the turkeys in the tail to spin like weather vanes, and the rams in the legs to try to make them flop off forward. My wife, doing duty as my spotter, and I were chuckling through the whole match, while the guy next to me kept warning me I was hitting them low or high, etc. Finally had to explain that I was making the targets do tricks. I then cleaned the tie breakers and took home two trophies. Which taught me that one should never take this stuff too seriously - it's supposed to be fun. Those trophies are now in a box, with about fifty more, in the back of a closet, they are the ones that lost their little brass plates when the sticky tape let go. One plate fell into a heat register and rattled around, the other fell across the contacts of a wall plug and shorted out blowing the breaker. I stopped accepting trophies, donating them back to the clubs, I mean resetting a blown circuit breaker is a pain.

thegiff
09-29-2013, 7:21 AM
To answer the OP's question directly, can a 9.25 twist 243 shoot to 1000 yards, the criteria is (drumroll...)

The bullet needs to be faster than supersonic at 1000yd.

A 95grain SMK launched at 3000fps should stabilize in a 9.25 twist barrel, and will be at mach 1.2 at 1000yd.

So we can conclude that the OP's rifle would be good (good enough anyway) for long range shooting up to and a little past 1000yd.

I was going to say something about how these threads seem to always degenerate into some sort of pissing match about who knows more about benchrest shooting, but that would be a waste of time and effort since it is obvious to all.

russ69
09-29-2013, 8:35 AM
...So we can conclude that the OP's rifle would be good (good enough anyway) for long range shooting up to and a little past 1000yd...

How dare you stay on topic. Thanx.

LynnJr
09-29-2013, 10:07 AM
To answer the OP's question directly, can a 9.25 twist 243 shoot to 1000 yards, the criteria is (drumroll...)

The bullet needs to be faster than supersonic at 1000yd.

A 95grain SMK launched at 3000fps should stabilize in a 9.25 twist barrel, and will be at mach 1.2 at 1000yd.

So we can conclude that the OP's rifle would be good (good enough anyway) for long range shooting up to and a little past 1000yd.

I was going to say something about how these threads seem to always degenerate into some sort of pissing match about who knows more about benchrest shooting, but that would be a waste of time and effort since it is obvious to all.

Several posters have already stated this to the original poster so the only reason for your late to the dance post is obvious and everyone knows this.
As Benchrest is only about extreme accuracy and what it takes to achieve that goal some here might actually learn something from the Benchrest crowd.Your mind is like a parachute in that it only works when open.Unfortunately there are few open minds here.
On a good note if you or anyone here can find errors in any of my posts they will be corrected.I don't like to see posts with untruths in them and this website seems to be full of myths and lore.

toby
09-29-2013, 11:15 AM
All of this 6mm crap, I'm gonna do up a 6.5-06 just cuz!

russ69
09-29-2013, 1:33 PM
All of this 6mm crap, I'm gonna do up a 6.5-06 just cuz!

Back to 1950s? You want a 6.5X47...just cuz, it's 2013, not 1953.

toby
09-29-2013, 2:45 PM
Back to 1950s? You want a 6.5X47...just cuz, it's 2013, not 1953.

Nope, that 6.5x47 wont do anything different and I have 5000 pcs of brass already. Somethings were made to last.

russ69
09-29-2013, 7:28 PM
Nope, that 6.5x47 wont do anything different..

The current thinking is that the short powder column with the right shoulder angle leads to better combustion and therefore better accuracy.

toby
09-29-2013, 8:09 PM
The current thinking is that the short powder column with the right shoulder angle leads to better combustion and therefore better accuracy.

It's not 100% true and so you see what people get for thinking.:rolleyes:

russ69
09-29-2013, 9:00 PM
It's not 100% true... and so you see what people get for thinking.:rolleyes:

Yes, you get the 6PPC. Do tell me how Palmisano & Pindel are wrong.

Dooder
10-02-2013, 1:17 PM
:popcorn:

Haaha this explanation should be pretty entertaining to hear

toby
10-02-2013, 5:32 PM
Yes, you get the 6PPC. Do tell me how Palmisano & Pindel are wrong.

I did not mention this cartridge or the creators, then you said the CURRENT thinking was that a short column with the right shoulder leads to better combustion and therefor leads to better accuracy. I said this is not 100% true. There have been many cartridges made in similar fashion that are not as accurate as the PPc cartridges and then there are some that very much so if not as accurate as the PPC's. There are big fat, long slender, and everything in between that work well and the same may not be worth a crap. There are just too many variables and then you have the firearm in which they are fired from as well. If you think the PPC's are the cats meow so be it we all have are favorites. Did not reply for argument I posted an honest reply, but then I should have known since you already barked at my previous replies on the 243 and a 6.5-06 and other 50 year old cartridges as you like to refer them as.

toby
10-02-2013, 5:37 PM
:popcorn:

Haaha this explanation should be pretty entertaining to hear

Reading Comprehension goes a long way.

russ69
10-02-2013, 9:28 PM
...There have been many cartridges made in similar fashion that are not as accurate as the PPc cartridges...

For sure. The word is that making a short case is not the whole answer. It's the combo of the right powder stack and the right shoulder angle. For the last 40 odd years nobody has got it better than the PPC. That's for short range I'll give you that. The 6BR seems to have the long range stuff wired but there are plenty of others. Not trying to bust your chops I'm just trying to move people away from the 60s and into the modern world.

russ69
10-12-2013, 10:51 PM
Well it looks like I have a heavy barrel Remington on order. I also ordered up some Berger 95 grain VLDs. We'll see if they will shoot. I'm trying to keep the budget down, I bought a lot of rifles this year. I'll slap a good trigger in it and mod the stock and see how it goes.

Darto
10-13-2013, 7:31 AM
For years my only rifle was a 700 in 6mm Remington (Remington's answer to .243 Winchester). Did great on Wyoming antelope at 200 to 300 yards, only bullet I used was Speer 105 spitzer.

Latest Speer manual seems to say do not even want to substitute other brands of brass in the .243.

The 6mm Rem gives maybe 50 feet per second more speed has a 1 in 9" twist and you can substitute brands of brass without changing pressures.

Today I would buy the .243 Winchester, instead of 6mm Rem! The .243 is a more standard caliber and even Walmart used to have sales on .243 all the time. Nosler etc. makes 105 grains, should work wonderful in a .243.

Darto
10-13-2013, 7:42 AM
Those days any grocery store in Colorado had 30-06, 30-30, 7mm mag, .243, .270, and 22 LR cartridges and nothing else. My Remington 6mm was 1in9" and stabilized 105 Speer Spitzer perfectly, no problem and at ranges 300 yards. Pretty much the same story with 1 in 9-1/4" I would guess. Was my only rifle for many years, I shot a zillion 105 grainers, 0 problems.