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View Full Version : We've gone too far? Starbucks


cr250chevy
09-18-2013, 6:31 AM
Have we gone too far? Did we push a company too far? Or is Starbucks overreacting? They obliviously have not banned guns but its apparent they are not happy with being the center for guns at retail/businesses...

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/starbucks-says-guns-unwelcome-though-040631688.html

n2stackin
09-18-2013, 6:47 AM
I could be wrong, but Starbucks seems to tolerate gun owners, not endorse them. I'm happy they allow guns in their store, but I would never show up with a group of buddies open carrying just to "show my appreciation".

And....

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=824975

Vaktathi
09-18-2013, 6:54 AM
Honestly, to me, it just appears they don't want the debate fought at their stores. They haven't had a stance in the past beyond "whatever local law allows", they haven't banned anything despite significant pressure from other groups, they aren't enforcing any sort of "no weapons" policy, it's just an open letter from upper management basically saying "take the debate somewhere else that's not our store". Regrettable, but understandable from their perspective as a business.

Hoooper
09-18-2013, 7:37 AM
if you were a store owner, regardless of the topic would you like a group of people coming in for an "appreciation day" that you had no part in organizing that would annoy the kind of people who are generally your core customers?

Hoop
09-18-2013, 7:54 AM
People are getting all bent out of shape over this but all they said was

"Schultz hopes people will honor the request not to bring in guns but says the company will nevertheless serve those who do.

"We will not ask you to leave," he said."

In other words we don't really want you carrying guns in our establishment but we still want your money so I guess it's okay.

Untamed1972
09-18-2013, 8:09 AM
From a business standpoint I understand where they're coming from. If it's affecting their busniess, draining company time and resournces having to respond requests for statements and so on that is not their purpose for being in business, their purpose is selling overpriced coffee and crappy, dried out pastries and trying to make a profit.

I think it's a fair request to ask not to be dragged into the middle of something you dont want to be a part of.

IVC
09-18-2013, 9:25 AM
I think it's a fair request to ask not to be dragged into the middle of something you dont want to be a part of.

Yeah, like the cake store in Oregon that wouldn't provide cake to a gay wedding and ended up going out of business and investigated by the state.

Gun owners are not a "protected class" (yet) in spite of all the systematic discrimination in places like CA. So, technically, Starbucks is well within their right to do about guns anything they want. It doesn't make it right, though. They are on the wrong side of civil liberties this time.

We really need a cultural shift where "liberal leaning companies" embrace the complete bill of rights and start understanding that the gun rights should be a part of the liberal cause.

kaligaran
09-18-2013, 9:38 AM
They are trying to play both sides it seems.

gogohopper
09-18-2013, 9:42 AM
dupage
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=824975

joefreas
09-18-2013, 9:50 AM
I don't think any mass market retail company wants to be the poster child of a firearms debate.

Ronin2
09-18-2013, 9:58 AM
They are trying to play both sides it seems.

Not at all... Starbucks is a BUSINESS, in business to serve the public, gun owners and non gun owners. The CEO has a fiduciary responsibility to the shareholders to maximize corporate profits. He can be fired and held liable if he makes mistakes that effect profitability of the company. HIS JOB IS TO SELL AS MUCH STARBUCKS PRODUCT AS POSSIBLE!!!

While he did not say that you cant do it, he asked that you refrain from making Starbucks a flash point in the debate to the point that it disrupts business... a perfectly understandable and reasonable position ANY business owner has the right to ask. Clearly the open carry idiots descending on a Starbucks location in groups scare off and upset the non gun owners. Seems simple enough... they want to keep everyone as customers and don't want to be a campaign rally point for open carry advocates just because they have not forbidden open carry.

The Neanderthal wing of the gun owning public have obtusely gone over the edge again and have taken a major corporation that was cool with open carry and PUSHED it in the direction of being more restrictive. Why cant these open carry fools that time they have on their hands and sign up new NRA members, raise money for the 2nd amendment foundation, register republican voters, protest anti gun politicians offices, protest anti gun business to raise public awareness, clean up a public shooting area or ANYTHING more constructive than sitting around chatting away while showing off their guns... LOL Clearly LAZYNESS may play into it......

NOTE: Starbucks still permits CCW in its stores unlike many businesses. Do we really want gun owning idiots to force Starbucks over the edge and ban all carry in their stores... cuz that's where all the "bubba's" are taking this.....

There is a lesson here somewhere but I suspect the subtleties are beyond the grasp of many of our fellow gun owners. Another example of tactical and not strategic thinking....and we wonder why we are losing.......

ASTMedic
09-18-2013, 10:02 AM
I think it's been well stated a few times. They're basically saying, "we don't have a dog in this fight, we just want you take your fight outside". I think that's very reasonable to request since they were dragged into it with no regard to their wishes.

I really don't understand why people are so viciously attacking Starbucks over this. You don't agree with this polite request, fine, that's your right. But why are people lynching them in social media for requesting to not be represented as an open carry proponent? They basically said "stop putting words in our mouth", is that somehow unacceptable?

This is why we have such a hard time keeping moderate gun owners in the pro gun fight. We condemn anyone who doesn't violently protect the 2A. We know that many in this country feel gun ownership is a right in one way or another and that many homes have a gun in it. However when people rabidly attack those who don't agree with their 2A view it does nothing to assist our cause.

Tolerance
09-18-2013, 10:11 AM
We really need a cultural shift where "liberal leaning companies" embrace the complete bill of rights and start understanding that the gun rights should be a part of the liberal cause.

+1 on the above response from IVC

Glad to see this issue appearing on Calguns. I saw it this morning and voiced my disappointment to Starbucks for promoting social intolerance of our civil rights.

I understand they want to sell coffee. They need to understand that caving in to intolerant vocal groups that want to restrict people's rights will only result in Starbucks alienating one group after another.

fr33domfightr
09-18-2013, 10:13 AM
I don't think any mass market retail company wants to be the poster child of a firearms debate.

I'm sure Chik-fil-A didn't want that either. And when gays showed up in mass to protest the company's statements and/or beliefs, they served them all. Did they ask them not to come in, of course not.

bombadillo
09-18-2013, 10:16 AM
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/09/18/20551830-starbucks-in-switch-asks-customers-not-to-bring-guns-into-stores

This was on the morning news. Interesting take on it. They know better tan to put "NO GUNS ALLOWED" or any signs up, they go so far as to say that they will not ask anyone to leave with a firearm, they will continue to serve people with a firearm, but they are asking people not to bring them into their cafes...??? :confused:

That is just ASKING for people to try and push the envelope in my opinion, and I'll be interested on what happens with this in the future.

http://m.static.newsvine.com/servista/imagesizer?file=markedits97B6D062-D464-0F4E-8CC6-131780FC11A7.jpg&width=380

Sakiri
09-18-2013, 10:34 AM
Have we gone too far? Did we push a company too far? Or is Starbucks overreacting? They obliviously have not banned guns but its apparent they are not happy with being the center for guns at retail/businesses...

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/starbucks-says-guns-unwelcome-though-040631688.html

No, we just had too many idiots open carrying and freaking out the locals.

lawaia
09-18-2013, 10:51 AM
They are trying to play both sides it seems.

Wrong. They don't want to be in this game.

bombadillo
09-18-2013, 11:28 AM
Well as a business, they need to take a stance. Taking the political middle, they are going to lose business on BOTH sides. I'm done with them until they can figure out what they are going to do. I can't believe my father in law who is a starbucks die hard, and even bigger gun nut won't boycott them. If they're not for the 2A, they're obviously against it.

IVC
09-18-2013, 11:39 AM
No, we just had too many idiots open carrying and freaking out the locals.

In some areas it's the gays that "freak out the locals." You, know, much like someone with a gun is about to shoot you, someone who is gay is about to infect you with HIV (sarcasm on both counts, obviously).

It's absolutely no excuse. The same way the far right had tolerance of what they find unreasonable shoved down their throats, the far left now needs to get a taste of their own medicine - shove it down the throats of those who find guns offensive and open carry in poor taste.

Karma is an ironic b!&@#.

Untamed1972
09-18-2013, 11:40 AM
Yeah, like the cake store in Oregon that wouldn't provide cake to a gay wedding and ended up going out of business and investigated by the state.

Gun owners are not a "protected class" (yet) in spite of all the systematic discrimination in places like CA. So, technically, Starbucks is well within their right to do about guns anything they want. It doesn't make it right, though. They are on the wrong side of civil liberties this time.

We really need a cultural shift where "liberal leaning companies" embrace the complete bill of rights and start understanding that the gun rights should be a part of the liberal cause.

I really dont see it that way. What they're saying, as a company, is that the purpose of our stores is to sell coffee, thats what WE want to do here, and our customers come here to buy COFFEE. Please do not take it upon YOURSELF.....someone with no stake in the success of this COFFEE business, to make our private property and name YOUR battleground.

If you truly believe in personal freedoms and property rights, etc then you must honor that request. If it was your business and 2 groups decided to make your business their battleground and try to co-opt your company name in their fight without your consent and possibly put your business at risk I'm sure you would feel the same.

What I see them saying is if someone who is carrying wants to come in and get coffee, that's fine and we wont ask you to leave, but please dont have your group meetups here and attrack protesters and all of that. And I think that's a reasonable request because such things can and likely are very disruptive to their business and they should be able to run their business in peace. There is nothing worse than having someone else decide to drag you into something you have no desire to be part of.

IVC
09-18-2013, 11:54 AM
I really dont see it that way. What they're saying, as a company, is that the purpose of our stores is to sell coffee, thats what WE want to do here, and our customers come here to buy COFFEE. Please do not take it upon YOURSELF.....someone with no stake in the success of this COFFEE business, to make our private property and name YOUR battleground.

Open carriers were buying coffee, much like the gay couple was buying cake. In both cases the business made sure the customer wasn't welcome. Starbucks is trying to weasel out by saying "we're not banning, we just don't want you," but the motive behind it is the same.

Remember, the bakery also just wanted to be left alone and stay out of it. They didn't have a choice.

If you truly believe in personal freedoms and property rights, etc then you must honor that request. If it was your business and 2 groups decided to make your business their battleground and try to co-opt your company name in their fight without your consent and possibly put your business at risk I'm sure you would feel the same.

We either have full property rights where any public business can discriminate by, e.g., putting up signs "whites only," or "on queers," OR we have a regulation that says that public business cannot violate civil rights in their operation as a condition of staying "accessible to public." The Starbucks case is far from clear cut either way.

As an example, KKK discriminates based on race, but it's not open to the public so it doesn't run afoul of the law. Technically, NAACP uses the same mechanism (even though it's completely different agenda).

Vaktathi
09-18-2013, 12:15 PM
Starbucks isn't refusing service or entry to the business, it would just prefer you leave the firearm out of their store, but again is not enforcing anything, despite that there's no law against them doing so if they chose to do so. The bakery in question (which I used to live near-ish in Oregon) flat out refused service to people in violation of state law. These are not the same thing.

Untamed1972
09-18-2013, 12:32 PM
Open carriers were buying coffee, much like the gay couple was buying cake. In both cases the business made sure the customer wasn't welcome. Starbucks is trying to weasel out by saying "we're not banning, we just don't want you," but the motive behind it is the same.

Remember, the bakery also just wanted to be left alone and stay out of it. They didn't have a choice.

I really Starbucks trying to accomodate everyone as much as possible, and being asked not to be dragged into something they dont want to be. I think what they're really saying is "please dont advertise all over town that you're having a HUGE open carry meet-up at X starbacks which will attract anti-protesters, news coverage and scare off all the other customers who just want to mind their own business and drink some coffee in peace. Aside from that if you want to come in for coffee and happen to be carrying we wont make an issue of it."

I think that is a fair and reasonable request.

I agree, the people with bakery go screwed. But unfortunately right now gun owners are not a protected class so it's a stretch to compare the two. And starbucks is not refusing you service. ETA: And secondly....what do we gain by making an enemy by disrupting or destroying a business like the LGBT community does? Starbucks has been pretty stand-up about the whole thing, why not just say: "Thank you for the support and we aologize for making you as focal point of something the had nothing to do with your business."

If a bunch of zealots for whatever cause started descending on my business and disrupting it, dragging me into public fights on things I dont want to be involved in, and threatening to bring down my livelihood I prolly wouldn't like it either and it certainly wouldn't not gain my support for their cause.

kaligaran
09-18-2013, 12:36 PM
Wrong. They don't want to be in this game.

That's my point exactly. They want to not be in the spotlight. They want to appease both sides as much as possible without causing a hit on sales.

They've been thrown into the middle of something they have no desire to be in.

Untamed1972
09-18-2013, 12:52 PM
That's my point exactly. They want to not be in the spotlight. They want to appease both sides as much as possible without causing a hit on sales.

They've been thrown into the middle of something they have no desire to be in.

Exactly. What I would say is Starbucks originally did the best they could and said "We have no policy, we will abide by state law." That's actually pretty damn good in my book, and then everyone on both sides decided to jump on them like a hungry chicken on a bug and make them a focal point for something they didn't want to be the focal point for. And even now they're being pretty good about it by basically saying "Hey gunnies....quit making us the focal point and we will look the other way ;) ;)" And that still doesn't seem to be enough.

So serisouly......why can't our side see it for what is and be respectable about it?

a1c
09-18-2013, 1:10 PM
Open carriers were buying coffee, much like the gay couple was buying cake. In both cases the business made sure the customer wasn't welcome. Starbucks is trying to weasel out by saying "we're not banning, we just don't want you," but the motive behind it is the same.

Remember, the bakery also just wanted to be left alone and stay out of it. They didn't have a choice.

We either have full property rights where any public business can discriminate by, e.g., putting up signs "whites only," or "on queers," OR we have a regulation that says that public business cannot violate civil rights in their operation as a condition of staying "accessible to public." The Starbucks case is far from clear cut either way.

As an example, KKK discriminates based on race, but it's not open to the public so it doesn't run afoul of the law. Technically, NAACP uses the same mechanism (even though it's completely different agenda).

Huh... The NAACP accepts white members.

Also, you need to look up the Federal Civil Rights Act.

ucsbgirlie18
09-18-2013, 3:01 PM
Not at all... Starbucks is a BUSINESS, in business to serve the public, gun owners and non gun owners. The CEO has a fiduciary responsibility to the shareholders to maximize corporate profits. He can be fired and held liable if he makes mistakes that effect profitability of the company. HIS JOB IS TO SELL AS MUCH STARBUCKS PRODUCT AS POSSIBLE!!!

While he did not say that you cant do it, he asked that you refrain from making Starbucks a flash point in the debate to the point that it disrupts business... a perfectly understandable and reasonable position ANY business owner has the right to ask. Clearly the open carry idiots descending on a Starbucks location in groups scare off and upset the non gun owners. Seems simple enough... they want to keep everyone as customers and don't want to be a campaign rally point for open carry advocates just because they have not forbidden open carry.

The Neanderthal wing of the gun owning public have obtusely gone over the edge again and have taken a major corporation that was cool with open carry and PUSHED it in the direction of being more restrictive. Why cant these open carry fools that time they have on their hands and sign up new NRA members, raise money for the 2nd amendment foundation, register republican voters, protest anti gun politicians offices, protest anti gun business to raise public awareness, clean up a public shooting area or ANYTHING more constructive than sitting around chatting away while showing off their guns... LOL Clearly LAZYNESS may play into it......

NOTE: Starbucks still permits CCW in its stores unlike many businesses. Do we really want gun owning idiots to force Starbucks over the edge and ban all carry in their stores... cuz that's where all the "bubba's" are taking this.....

There is a lesson here somewhere but I suspect the subtleties are beyond the grasp of many of our fellow gun owners. Another example of tactical and not strategic thinking....and we wonder why we are losing.......

I could not say this better myself. I completely understand Starbucks' position. Their view on this topic has always been very principled. This letter wouldn't happen if people didn't organize open carry events at Starbucks. That just scares people and makes us look like extremists. If you want to help the cause, take some friends out shooting and teach them gun safety. Don't show up to Starbucks with ten other people carrying AR-15s.

IVC
09-18-2013, 3:25 PM
Huh... The NAACP accepts white members.

Also, you need to look up the Federal Civil Rights Act.

Sure it does. Just doesn't promote them. It's like saying that blacks in the cotton picking time were part of the households.

As for FCRA, are you alluding to protected classes? I don't claim that gun owners are, just that we should be based on our treatment and constant attempts at criminalization.

mag360
09-18-2013, 3:46 PM
Omg just dont gather there like a bunch of fools witb slinged AR'S if you happen to be OC for whatever reason just stop in. Get your coffee and leave. You and your buddies dont need to hang out and engage antis.

Remember what they say about rolling around in the mud with a pig??

mavericksun
09-18-2013, 4:49 PM
if you were a store owner, regardless of the topic would you like a group of people coming in for an "appreciation day" that you had no part in organizing that would annoy the kind of people who are generally your core customers?

Most people would be happy for any boost in business and who said some of their core customers are not gun owners?

bombadillo
09-18-2013, 4:56 PM
Most people would be happy for any boost in business and who said some of their core customers are not gun owners?

EXACTLY!

Business is business. Now they are just trying to ride the political fence and keep business from both sides, no more no less.

MontClaire
09-18-2013, 4:57 PM
:facepalm:Some friends of ours went too far.

Bill Carson
09-18-2013, 4:58 PM
I hated starbucks anyway.

jdben92883
09-18-2013, 5:04 PM
Starbucks was founded in Seattle. I'm pretty sure their core demographic isn't conservative gun owners. Most of us have more common sense than to waste our $$ on overpriced coffee when there's ammo to be stockpiled.

Most people would be happy for any boost in business and who said some of their core customers are not gun owners?

mavericksun
09-18-2013, 5:06 PM
From a business standpoint I understand where they're coming from. If it's affecting their busniess, draining company time and resournces having to respond requests for statements and so on that is not their purpose for being in business, their purpose is selling overpriced coffee and crappy, dried out pastries and trying to make a profit.

I think it's a fair request to ask not to be dragged into the middle of something you dont want to be a part of.

So the Anti-gun crowd bombarded them with questions and asks for statements so their response is to "ask" people not to carry in their stores? That's not being neutral. If they really wanted to be neutral, they would have come out and stated their original policy which was we will follow the local laws and we ask that both sides do not use our stores as their battle ground. They stated in their own internal memo that weapons are not allowed in their stores. They also stated they didn't want to enforce the ban unless someone is being disruptive. So what happens if someone goes into a Starbucks with a gun and quietly sits down to have their drink and an anti-gun mommy complains? Will Starbucks ask the gun owner to leave or the mother to leave? Starbucks has come out and said they don't want guns in their stores so I can bet you the gun owner will be asked to leave. Being tolerated is not the same as being accepted. Gun owners are being demonized by Starbucks and some of you just don't see it as a problem. This is why gun owner's rights are being taken away in many states because they are dividing and conquering.

CSACANNONEER
09-18-2013, 5:07 PM
"We" haven't gone too far. But, a small group of idiot open carry movement morons have pushed too far. It's that simple. The in your face, open carry movement is trying to exercise their rights in an irresponsible and stupid way. Starbucks (which I do not shop at) has the right to run their business without disruptive and disrespectful idiots bringing their little demonstrations to a business and disrupting the business to prove a point. So far, the open carry movement has only helped to take my right to open carry away by using these disruptive and harmful tactics to prove that what they are doing is legal without thinking that their actions have and will continue to push the antis into passing more restrictive carry laws and turning businesses against the 2A movement as a whole.

vintagearms
09-18-2013, 5:09 PM
I really Starbucks trying to accomodate everyone as much as possible, and being asked not to be dragged into something they dont want to be. I think what they're really saying is "please dont advertise all over town that you're having a HUGE open carry meet-up at X starbacks which will attract anti-protesters, news coverage and scare off all the other customers who just want to mind their own business and drink some coffee in peace. Aside from that if you want to come in for coffee and happen to be carrying we wont make an issue of it."

I think that is a fair and reasonable request.



I agree.

hermosabeach
09-19-2013, 10:31 AM
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=825657&highlight=starbucks

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=824975&highlight=starbucks

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=825664&highlight=starbucks
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=825232&highlight=starbucks
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=825232&highlight=starbucks
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=825197&highlight=starbucks
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=825272&highlight=starbucks
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=825105&highlight=starbucks

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=825097&highlight=starbucks
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=811554&highlight=starbucks
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=825226&highlight=starbucks
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=825078&highlight=starbucks
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=824980&highlight=starbucks

I think you are missing the point... Starbucks are still one of the biggest gun neutral / gun supporting companies....

The Douche Bags who open carry, film the police response, get arrogant with the cops all while the STARBUCKS logo is the background is the problem....

You will find HUNDREDS of open carry stops on your tube of the Open Carry Police interaction videos.... Filmed with Starbucks as the backdrop

Open carry folks in CA could have all become instructors and taught Boy Scouts, new shooters and Women how to shoot a firearm... but they chose to walk up and down the beach and such....

the result was turning the public against guns.... not building confidence and comfort around firearms....

Can we stop with all of the Starbucks Threads???????????