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g.broiles
09-17-2013, 8:40 PM
See http://www.gunssavelife.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/sbux.jpeg

mikehtiger
09-17-2013, 8:52 PM
http://www.starbucks.com/blog/an-open-letter-from-howard-schultz/1268

And just after they released the pumpkin spice latte too...

Germz
09-17-2013, 8:59 PM
people "request" that I be less of an @sshole at work, but I tell them to pound sand. So if you really wanted to. you still could.

p7m8jg
09-17-2013, 9:01 PM
How are you breaking the law if you go into one of these "no guns here" stores while lawfully carrying CCW? I don't see a trespassing charge.

The only possible problem is if your CCW has attached some type of condition that you don't go anywhere or into any establishment that prohibits people from carrying concealed. "Maybe" then you violate the terms of your CCW.

If something happens.

If you get caught.

If the agency that issued your CCW is a
nevermind.

BroncoBob
09-17-2013, 9:01 PM
Don't really care for Starbucks anyway......

mikehtiger
09-17-2013, 9:02 PM
I could but I don't want to. One of the main reasons I spent so much money at that store was their pro 2A policies. Here is where we can see who the real 2A supporters are. We all have to make sacrifices for our rights. Not drinking foofy coffee drinks is a pretty small one.

bodger
09-17-2013, 9:02 PM
All the more reason to make my coffee at home.

Malmon
09-17-2013, 9:03 PM
I guess no more starbucks for me.

Brandon04GT
09-17-2013, 9:06 PM
We can probably thank ****ing goons like that guy on youtube who films himself openly carrying his .22 MP5 around.

AAShooter
09-17-2013, 9:07 PM
I hope all LEO's honor their request.

CitaDeL
09-17-2013, 9:07 PM
No guns. No money.

mikehtiger
09-17-2013, 9:09 PM
No Brandon04GT,

Those people may be idiots (they are) but it is their right to be idiots. They could say something like, try not to make a big political statement here, but instead they are saying "I hate you America and all you stand for!"

.30-06
09-17-2013, 9:09 PM
Sellouts. F*** the Anti 2A community as a whole.

drunktank
09-17-2013, 9:10 PM
How does Coffe Bean & Tea Leaf feal about carrying? I did a quick search but came up empty...

Thanks

NuGunner
09-17-2013, 9:10 PM
Your not trespassing until the following happens.

1) You are asked to leave by an agent of the company (I.e employee) and
2) You refuse to leave

Even then the person who asked you to leave would need to place you under private person's arrest. That is due to it being a misdemeanor not committed in the presence of a peace officer.

So then what could happen is they then call the cops.

Officer asks you to leave, on behalf of the employee. You then leave and there's no problems. If you refuse, now you are trespassing in their presence and an arrest can be made on the employees behalf. They (Starbucks) would have to be desirous of prosecution. Since they are pressing the charges they also need to show up to court otherwise the charges are dropped.

Any further questions please refer to 602(L) PC - Trespassing
The first part needs to happen though.

The other thing is if you are carrying concealed, truly concealed, none of this should be an issue.

For anyone who didn't already figure it out, I'm referring to a situation in which a person has a CCW.

mikehtiger
09-17-2013, 9:10 PM
I hope all LEO's honor their request.

I will try to spread the word around.

Calplinker
09-17-2013, 9:12 PM
Did any of you actually read the article????

Before spouting off, you might consider it.

SouperMan
09-17-2013, 9:12 PM
We can probably thank ****ing goons like that guy on youtube who films himself openly carrying his .22 MP5 around.

*facepalm*

mikehtiger
09-17-2013, 9:15 PM
Did any of you actually read the article????

Before spouting off, you might consider it.

They said:

"That’s why I am writing today with a respectful request that customers no longer bring firearms into our stores or outdoor seating areas."

Sounds like they don't want any of your scary guns in the store concealed or not. I will comply. Neither my gun or I will go into their stores or outdoor seating areas.

Brandon04GT
09-17-2013, 9:17 PM
*facepalm*

What? Is it some big surprise that some of these open carry crusaders (who walk around in tactical gear sticking cameras into the faces of LEO's while reciting the constitution) will eventually ruin it for us? The "in your face" approach isn't very effective IMO.

RT13
09-17-2013, 9:18 PM
I guess Starbucks wants to be a safer place for people to come together in peace and sip some overpriced coffee.:rolleyes: Basically, they want to join those other safe places in so called gun free zones where violence and shootings never occur. You know, like the Aurora movie theater, Sandy Hook Elementary, etc.

1681
09-17-2013, 9:18 PM
ha ha ha!!! where are those fan boys???

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=805418

OneFunGuy
09-17-2013, 9:18 PM
We don't need no stinking Starbucks OR Staples. There are plenty of other places.

a1c
09-17-2013, 9:18 PM
It was only a matter of time. The "guns and coffee" t-shirts and mugs were a bad idea from the start.

Note that this is really about open carry. No word about concealed carry.

shooter41022
09-17-2013, 9:18 PM
its starbucks....

battleship
09-17-2013, 9:22 PM
This comes when i just bought my Guns and Coffee starbucks style logo Tshirt. They gonna ask me to not wear that.

jaymz
09-17-2013, 9:22 PM
Sounds like a reasonable man making a reasonable request. Probably due to in-your-face type open carriers. Absolutely not anti-2A.

mikehtiger
09-17-2013, 9:22 PM
Note that this is really about open carry. No word about concealed carry.

"...customers no longer bring firearms into our stores..."

CitaDeL
09-17-2013, 9:25 PM
its starbucks....

Right. Which means they should concentrate on making coffee instead of taking sides in a political debate.

Hoologan
09-17-2013, 9:29 PM
Sounds like a reasonable man making a reasonable request. Probably due to in-your-face type open carriers. Absolutely not anti-2A.

Agreed. Property rights are just as important as gun rights.

If (for any silly reason) I ask a guest not to bring a gun into my home, I'll expect them to comply or GTFO. My place, my rules.

Having said that, I have the choice to avoid Starbucks based on their rules, so I'll do just that.

1681
09-17-2013, 9:32 PM
Sounds like a reasonable man making a reasonable request. Probably due to in-your-face type open carriers. Absolutely not anti-2A.

yup, it's a "reasonable" request from one of barack's biggest donors:

don't tale your f**king guns near our stores, unless you are a cop!

and if you work for starbucks, don't even think about it!

SonofWWIIDI
09-17-2013, 9:33 PM
I have approximately $60 dollars in Starbucks giftcards that I have aquired via gifts over the last few months. I am going to send an email to the douchebag in charge and ask that they be redeemed for cash, since I can longer frequent their establishment due to their new policy regarding guns.

SouperMan
09-17-2013, 9:33 PM
What? Is it some big surprise that some of these open carry crusaders (who walk around in tactical gear sticking cameras into the faces of LEO's while reciting the constitution) will eventually ruin it for us? The "in your face" approach isn't very effective IMO.

I agree that the "in your face" approach is not effective; as a matter of a fact I completely agree that the Open Carry folks who parade around in their tactical gear and armaments are sending the wrong message about responsible gun ownership. Should I be surprised? No, not really. But the fact that the OC folks still haven't caught on... It amazes me that they continue to damage and self destruct the very liberty they fight to preserve.

mikehtiger
09-17-2013, 9:35 PM
yup, it's a "reasonable" request from one of barack's biggest donors:

don't tale your f**king guns near our stores, unless you are a cop!

and if you work for starbucks, don't even think about it!

I know a lot of cops who won't be going there anymore too.

a1c
09-17-2013, 9:42 PM
"...customers no longer bring firearms into our stores..."

The whole thing is about open carry. Count how many times he mentions it. No word about concealed carry. He also makes it clear he doesn't want his staff to be in the business of confronting people carrying guns. Basically, he's making this new policy shift public. He knows it's going to annoy open carriers, and frankly, it's hard for me to feel sorry for them in those states where they used it as an in-your-face demonstration. It was bound to happen, and if anything, I'm surprised it didn't happen sooner.

e90bmw
09-17-2013, 9:44 PM
Did any of you read and understand what he is saying????
He is saying if you are a proponent of open carry, fine, but be aware we want everyone to feel safe.If you oppose open carry stop trying to make our stores a battleground.

Basically saying, leave us out of the mess and quit trying to make us take sides.

gose
09-17-2013, 9:44 PM
It was only a matter of time. The "guns and coffee" t-shirts and mugs were a bad idea from the start.

Note that this is really about open carry. No word about concealed carry.

Exactly. Starbucks specifically ask to be left out of the fight. People didnt listen.
Not sure how this is really a surprise to anyone.
Unless you were one of the guys that thought OC in CA was a good idea.

mikehtiger
09-17-2013, 9:47 PM
The whole thing is about open carry. Count how many times he mentions it. No word about concealed carry. He also makes it clear he doesn't want his staff to be in the business of confronting people carrying guns. Basically, he's making this new policy shift public. He knows it's going to annoy open carriers, and frankly, it's hard for me to feel sorry for them in those states where they used it as an in-your-face demonstration. It was bound to happen, and if anything, I'm surprised it didn't happen sooner.

He could have said people should not make big political statements in the store or something like that, not please don't bring your guns to our stores.

Calplinker
09-17-2013, 9:52 PM
They are simply asking the Open Carry advocates to go away, which I heartily agree with.

He mentions open carry at least 4 times. I will continue to CCW daily at my local Starbucks.

Don't like it??? Don't patronize them.

FalseProfit
09-17-2013, 9:54 PM
no more public schools, theaters, malls, navy yards, and now starbucks. got it. thanks

mikehtiger
09-17-2013, 9:56 PM
I'm a bit saddened by how many people on this board are willing to give up their gun rights before their morning latte. Go read the comments on the SFgate article and see if this will do any good for the pro 2A community. Besides now the Open Carry in your face idiots will just go super crazy open carry at Starbucks.

LittleChickie
09-17-2013, 9:59 PM
If you read the full letter, it is obviously about open carry. Open carry as a concept is fine; the practical practice is not so fine. I'm really not thrilled to sit next to an in-your-face, "Here's my big gun - whatcha gonna do about it" person when I sit down to enjoy some fresh brewed coffee.
Think of Starbucks as the Neutral Zone. :oji:

pastureofmuppets
09-17-2013, 10:03 PM
If you want to stay out of a fight, don't ask one side to do something to appease the other.

Bad move.

Gryff
09-17-2013, 10:07 PM
Sounds like they don't want any of your scary guns in the store concealed or not. I will comply. Neither my gun or I will go into their stores or outdoor seating areas.

No, they want the Open Carry fools and anti-2A libtards to stop using their stores as a political battleground. I respect that the CEO posted this as a polite request rather than a knee-jerk outright ban.

a1c
09-17-2013, 10:10 PM
Private businesses have the right to tell customers not to bring guns in.

This is not a battleground worth fighting on. Move on, people.

mikehtiger
09-17-2013, 10:17 PM
Private businesses have the right to tell customers not to bring guns in.

This is not a battleground worth fighting on. Move on, people.

We shouldn't fight them, we just shouldn't go there anymore. This would be like a store saying "hey guys, we respect your rights to be gay, but we don't really like having gay people in our stores. We aren't kicking you out but please don't be gay here, thanks,"

Doheny
09-17-2013, 10:18 PM
The letter mentions open carry and outdoor seating areas, so no doubt these tools had something to do with SB's decision:

vN0GcahEvIc

Spyguy
09-17-2013, 10:18 PM
The correct way for a company to stay neutral:

"The rights of people to openly support the Second Amendment are no greater and no lesser than those who choose not to do so. Asking those who carry firearms to not patronize our stores is as unfair as asking those who are opposed to carrying firearms. Therefore, we shall continue to serve both without prejudice. However, we ask that you be respectful of one another and not use our stores as a forum for pronouncing or debating your political views. In other words, come in for some coffee, relax and enjoy yourself. But please don't make our stores one of your battlegrounds. This applies to people on both sides of this issue."

Scotty
09-17-2013, 10:20 PM
It seems most people don't read the entire article.

I would like to clarify two points. First, this is a request and not an outright ban. Why? Because we want to give responsible gun owners the chance to respect our request—and also because enforcing a ban would potentially require our partners to confront armed customers, and that is not a role I am comfortable asking Starbucks partners to take on. Second, we know we cannot satisfy everyone. For those who oppose “open carry,” we believe the legislative and policy-making process is the proper arena for this debate, not our stores. For those who champion “open carry,” please respect that Starbucks stores are places where everyone should feel relaxed and comfortable. The presence of a weapon in our stores is unsettling and upsetting for many of our customers.

mikehtiger
09-17-2013, 10:23 PM
It seems most people don't read the entire article.

We are reading the article. We don't care if they ban them or not. They are asking people to not bring guns to their stores. It's like asking people kindly not to be gay in their stores, or not to be black in their stores.

BZB
09-17-2013, 10:23 PM
Fu*k Starbucks and their anti 2A BS, their coffee is not as great as others anyway, I say boycott them. Fu*k Howard Schultz and his liberal fudge packers. SB is not the only coffee shop around, I can easily go elsewhere. They just loss my business FOREVER. Yeah, why don't Howard Schultz put up a sign at every SB store that it's a voluntary gun free zone, liberal victims here! In fact, he should put that sign up on his own front lawn, if he's a true believer of gun free zone BS. Fu*cking liberals.

fr33domfightr
09-17-2013, 10:24 PM
If you read the full letter, it is obviously about open carry. Open carry as a concept is fine; the practical practice is not so fine. I'm really not thrilled to sit next to an in-your-face, "Here's my big gun - whatcha gonna do about it" person when I sit down to enjoy some fresh brewed coffee.
Think of Starbucks as the Neutral Zone. :oji:

Cool, it'll be a "gun free zone," perfect!

Doheny
09-17-2013, 10:26 PM
Fu*k Starbucks and their anti 2A BS, their coffee is not as great as others anyway, I say boycott them. Fu*k Howard Schultz and his liberal fudge packers. SB is not the only coffee shop around, I can easily go elsewhere. They just loss my business FOREVER. Yeah, why don't Howard Schultz put up a sign at every SB store that it's a voluntary gun free zone, liberal victims here! In fact, he should put that sign up on his own front lawn, if he's a true believer of gun free zone BS. Fu*cking liberals.

Dude, chill. You're one angry guy. I'm not sure I'd want you sitting next to me with a gun and a cup of hot coffee.

Their house, their rules.

Spyguy
09-17-2013, 10:29 PM
The letter mentions open carry and outdoor seating areas, so no doubt these tools had something to do with SB's decision
Those guys were not tools. The "tools" were the chicken-**** antis who called the police and falsely accused these men of creating a disturbance. Lawfully carrying a firearm is NOT creating a disturbance under the law. This is no different than, for example, a woman falsely accusing a man of rape. The caller should have been charged with making a false accusation.

I'm always amazed to see how many gun owners are closeted antis.

Doheny
09-17-2013, 10:32 PM
Those guys were not tools. The "tools" were the chicken-**** antis who called the police and falsely accused these men of creating a disturbance. Lawfully carrying a firearm is NOT creating a disturbance under the law. This is no different than, for example, a woman falsely accusing a man of rape. The caller should have been charged with making a false accusation.

I'm always amazed to see how many gun owners are closeted antis.

Nah, if someone has a need to carry a long gun in public just for the heck of it they're a tool. In fact, they're a tool with a small penis, but that's just me (well, except for the small penis part.)

IVC
09-17-2013, 10:39 PM
They are simply asking the Open Carry advocates to go away, which I heartily agree with.

He mentions open carry at least 4 times. I will continue to CCW daily at my local Starbucks.

Don't like it??? Don't patronize them.

The proper attitude is to leave it to the local laws which they've been doing until now. Once they take law into their hands, they've chosen a side.

No different than a business asking "openly gay customers" to tone it down.

Spyguy
09-17-2013, 10:40 PM
Let's see how a letter like this would be received by the public:

Dear Fellow Americans,

Few topics in America generate a more polarized and emotional debate than race. In recent months, Starbucks stores and our partners (employees) who work in our stores have been thrust unwillingly into the middle of this debate. That’s why I am writing today with a respectful request that customers no longer bring blacks into our stores or outdoor seating areas.

From the beginning, our vision at Starbucks has been to create a “third place” between home and work where people can come together to enjoy the peace and pleasure of coffee and community. Our values have always centered on building community rather than dividing people, and our stores exist to give every customer a safe and comfortable respite from the concerns of daily life.

We appreciate that there is a highly sensitive balance of rights and responsibilities surrounding America’s civil rights laws, and we recognize the deep passion for and against the "civil rights" laws adopted by many states. (In the United States, "civil rights" is the term used for openly being black in public.) For years we have listened carefully to input from our customers, partners, community leaders and voices on both sides of this complicated, highly charged issue.

Our company’s longstanding approach to "civil rights" has been to follow local laws: we permit it in states where allowed and we prohibit it in states where these laws don’t exist. We have chosen this approach because we believe our store partners should not be put in the uncomfortable position of requiring customers leave our stores. We believe that black policy should be addressed by government and law enforcement—not by Starbucks and our store partners.

Recently, however, we’ve seen the "civil rights" debate become increasingly uncivil and, in some cases, even threatening. Pro-black activists have used our stores as a political stage for media events misleadingly called “Starbucks Appreciation Days” that disingenuously portray Starbucks as a champion of "civil rights." To be clear: we do not want these events in our stores. Some anti-black activists have also played a role in ratcheting up the rhetoric and friction, including soliciting and confronting our customers and partners.

For these reasons, today we are respectfully requesting that customers no longer bring blacks into our stores or outdoor seating areas—even in states where "civil rights" is permitted—unless they are authorized law enforcement personnel.

I would like to clarify two points. First, this is a request and not an outright ban. Why? Because we want to give responsible blacks the chance to respect our request—and also because enforcing a ban would potentially require our partners to confront black customers, and that is not a role I am comfortable asking Starbucks partners to take on. Second, we know we cannot satisfy everyone. For those who oppose "civil rights," we believe the legislative and policy-making process is the proper arena for this debate, not our stores. For those who champion "civil rights," please respect that Starbucks stores are places where everyone should feel relaxed and comfortable. The presence of a black person in our stores is unsettling and upsetting for many of our customers.

I am proud of our country and our heritage of civil discourse and debate. It is in this spirit that we make today’s request. Whatever your view, I encourage you to be responsible and respectful of each other as citizens and neighbors.

IVC
09-17-2013, 10:41 PM
Nah, if someone has a need to carry a long gun in public just for the heck of it they're a tool. In fact, they're a tool with a small penis, but that's just me (well, except for the small penis part.)

Guns and penises is like midgets and height. Only those who have a problem in the first place raise the issue...

BZB
09-17-2013, 10:42 PM
Dude, chill. You're one angry guy. I'm not sure I'd want you sitting next to me with a gun and a cup of hot coffee.

Their house, their rules.

I'm NOT angry at all, just frustrated with these anti 2A current events, individuals or companies that goes along with the current political climate to appease their voters or share holders.

I'm more dangerous with a cup of cold coffee than any firearms, I can't even kill a fly, so don't trip.

IVC
09-17-2013, 10:42 PM
Their house, their rules.

Same with KKK, yet people tend to complain.

IVC
09-17-2013, 10:44 PM
We are reading the article. We don't care if they ban them or not. They are asking people to not bring guns to their stores. It's like asking people kindly not to be gay in their stores, or not to be black in their stores.

Precisely. Staying neutral means leaving law to local legislators and brewing coffee.

fr33domfightr
09-17-2013, 10:44 PM
I don't see what the fuss is all about. I would feel much safer with fellow patrons open carrying. Actually, I find it refreshing! Would a robber ever consider going in the store with patrons openly carrying or those with concealed firearms? What if they hung out at the local liquor store? Think the Liquor store owner would feel safer? I would!!

Spyguy
09-17-2013, 10:45 PM
Nah, if someone has a need to carry a long gun in public just for the heck of it they're a tool. In fact, they're a tool with a small penis, but that's just me (well, except for the small penis part.)
There was a time in this great country where every MAN openly carried pistols and long guns; and they were respected for it. (Only the ones with small penises and vaginas didn't. Since you've already told us you don't have a small penis, then we know which group you fall into.)

IVC
09-17-2013, 10:47 PM
If you read the full letter, it is obviously about open carry. Open carry as a concept is fine; the practical practice is not so fine. I'm really not thrilled to sit next to an in-your-face, "Here's my big gun - whatcha gonna do about it" person when I sit down to enjoy some fresh brewed coffee.
Think of Starbucks as the Neutral Zone. :oji:

How do you feel about "in your face gays" or "in your face blacks?" Please be Michael Jackson white when around us, we don't want to upset the KKK.

Makes sense?


NO...

nadodave
09-17-2013, 10:47 PM
I'm pretty disgusted by what some of you are saying.

I cannot BELIEVE that one of you guys actually called Starbucks coffee, "fresh brewed."!!!!!!!!!!!

Find a local coffee shop where they know:

the difference between a latte and a cappuccino,

that a macchiato is not necessarily filled with caramel

and know that an Americano is a perfectly good espresso that has been ruined by some schmuck who decided it was too strong and needed more water.

IVC
09-17-2013, 10:49 PM
...but that's just me (well, except for the small penis part.)

That's what HE said...

Intimid8tor
09-17-2013, 10:51 PM
Open carry is not the real issue. People open carry here and no one looks twice. Starbucks isn't only located in California.

They got pressured and caved. Simple as that. Put the blame where it belongs and burn your guns and starbucks shirt.

Ninask
09-17-2013, 10:51 PM
We have all kind of rules in the public place,
why not a law that forbids stores from discriminating and refusing service just because they practise their 2nd Amendment rights?

Doheny
09-17-2013, 10:52 PM
Guns and penises is like midgets and height. Only those who have a problem in the first place raise the issue...

Did I mention my monster truck? ;)

dyson
09-17-2013, 10:53 PM
its all rhetoric to keep the anti's from b*tchin that they can't feel good about going to their favorite coffee spot. Starbucks won't be enforcing anything.

Doheny
09-17-2013, 10:53 PM
Ahhhhhhhaahahahahahahhahahhahhahhahaha... *GASP* hahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahaha!

Oh man, this is hilarious. I know - maybe it's time for an OC rally at the local Starbucks! And why not post lots of gun pictures on the Starbucks Facebook page too!

It's like a tragic clown car accident in slow motion - you just can't stop watching. And in the end, even if some clowns get hurt, it's still hilarious.

And don't forget to vote Democrat while you're at it - the "unregistered immigrants" hope to someday have the opportunity to vote [the rest of] your gun rights away.

That's an interesting first post. Welcome to Calguns.

IVC
09-17-2013, 10:55 PM
Nah, if someone has a need to carry a long gun in public just for the heck of it they're a tool.

As an English teacher dependent on the government for survival I can understand that you want to insult those who are different, but c'mon. Starbucks clearly decided to pick sides. Of course they can do it since it's private business, but don't flame those who don't like it and decide not to patronize them. It's at will contract both sides. No unions, free will, you understand right?

gwgn02
09-17-2013, 10:56 PM
I dont have a problem with Starbucks biz decision. I havea problem with overpriced horrible coffee, so I dont patronize them.

guntntteacher
09-17-2013, 10:57 PM
A civil right is a civil right. No one should be allowed to violate a civil right. I will not be patronizing this franchise anymore.

IVC
09-17-2013, 10:59 PM
Did I mention my monster truck? ;)

You really need to be a bit more open minded. Live and let live. You're no better than the others. As a fourth generation PhD in science I'm well versed in snobbery and can tell you that plebs and peasants have to offer much more than any uptight self-proclaimed intellectual.

shooter41022
09-17-2013, 11:02 PM
Right. Which means they should concentrate on making coffee instead of taking sides in a political debate.

seems like it was affecting the business/ workers and others so? why not? if you own a successful business and your main clients are being scared off by people parading around their guns what would you do? its a request and ccw as others mentioned seems to be ok still.

"Recently, however, we’ve seen the “open carry” debate become increasingly uncivil and, in some cases, even threatening. Pro-gun activists have used our stores as a political stage for media events misleadingly called “Starbucks Appreciation Days” that disingenuously portray Starbucks as a champion of “open carry.” To be clear: we do not want these events in our stores. Some anti-gun activists have also played a role in ratcheting up the rhetoric and friction, including soliciting and confronting our customers and partners."

IVC
09-17-2013, 11:04 PM
I dont have a problem with Starbucks biz decision.

As long as they are open about what they're doing instead of trying to rationalize it. A straight "we want urban hippies and don't want rednecks because only inbred hillbillies carry guns" would be a fair business policy. Trying to pander to both sides just doesn't work.

Much like one cannot hate gays "just a little bit," one cannot hate gun owners "just as long as it's reasonable." I hope it backfires on them.

fr33domfightr
09-17-2013, 11:06 PM
Open carry is not the real issue. People open carry here and no one looks twice. Starbucks isn't only located in California.

They got pressured and caved. Simple as that. Put the blame where it belongs and burn your guns and starbucks shirt.


They probably figured, we've got mostly non gun carrying customers, so if we lose a few of the carrying folks, no biggy.

fr33domfightr
09-17-2013, 11:08 PM
I wonder how they'd react if people started wearing Polygamy is the bomb, shirts? Can't wear offensive clothes??

IVC
09-17-2013, 11:09 PM
seems like it was affecting the business/ workers and others so? why not? if you own a successful business and your main clients are being scared off by people parading around their guns what would you do? its a request and ccw as others mentioned seems to be ok still.

By all means. Just admit it that you are taking sides and that you chose the anti civil liberties side. Nothing wrong with picking sides as long as you don't try to rationalize it.

It's not the first business that chose to discriminate against minorities. If gun ownership was a protected category such as race, nationality, sexual orientation, etc., they'd be facing a lawsuit. Because it's not, they're free to do the way they like it. Doesn't make it right, but they can certainly do it.

Gryff
09-17-2013, 11:12 PM
A civil right is a civil right. No one should be allowed to violate a civil right.

So, if I stand on your front lawn singing about the glory of Obama, or the Ku Klux Klan, or pedophilia, you should have no right to tell me to leave?

"Nobody should be allowed to violate a civil right" is what you said, correct?

NotEnufGarage
09-17-2013, 11:12 PM
They probably figured, we've got mostly non gun carrying customers, so if we lose a few of the carrying folks, no biggy.

Get a CCW permit, then they won't know. That's what I did.

Spyguy
09-17-2013, 11:13 PM
They probably figured, we've got mostly non gun carrying customers, so if we lose a few of the carrying folks, no biggy.
And this is the problem: gun owners do not stand up for their rights. Look at how many people in this thread -- on a Second Amendment Rights forum -- are supporting the Starbucks policy and even proclaiming that they will continue to patronize them.

Companies and politicians never really fear offending gun owners because we are not even united for our own cause.

California44
09-17-2013, 11:24 PM
No, they want the Open Carry fools and anti-2A libtards to stop using their stores as a political battleground. I respect that the CEO posted this as a polite request rather than a knee-jerk outright ban.

He's trying to sound like he's on no side but has sided nonetheless. It's a lost (maybe not entirely yet) opportunity to use Starbucks' history of a community gathering place to promote the debate.

Its free publicity in the middle of one of america's oldest and most important debates. You can't get much more American than that. Invite politicians to speak at the local Starbucks and allow both voices to be heard. All the while, partaking in another old American tradition; making money. Heck, they could sponsor new blends to promote each side of the debate and donate all profits to each side's cause.

He's cowardly.

IVC
09-17-2013, 11:24 PM
So, if I stand on your front lawn singing about the glory of Obama, or the Ku Klux Klan, or pedophilia, you should have no right to tell me to leave?

"Nobody should be allowed to violate a civil right" is what you said, correct?

Starbucks has the right to do whatever they want as long as it's not a protected group (which gun owners should be based on the pattern of discrimination in CA, but that's another story).

It doesn't make it right, though. In your example, it's the Starbuck singing about the KKK and we cannot do anything about it except stop patronizing them. It's the Starbucks that chose to take the anti civil liberties side.

Vaktathi
09-17-2013, 11:26 PM
Basically they're saying they don't want to be engaged in the debate that's been thrust upon them.

They don't want to be involved in the politics, they don't want to have to deal with protests and counter-protests at their stores, and they don't want to put young and dumb employees in situations involving angry armed people in shouting matches with angry people wanting to disarm them.

From a business perspective, I can understand and empathize with that. As a citizen, I dislike it and it hands the anti's the minor political win, but it's their house. On the flip side, despite the heated reaction they're going to get from this from the 2A side, they're getting reamed just as hard if not harder by the Anti's for not having banned open carry completely as soon as they could. Hell, the National Gun Victims Action Council basically said they're on our side promoting a pro-gun agenda because they hadn't gone straight out and banned carrying when they demanded Starbucks do so.

That said, as noted in the statement, it's still not a ban nor a policy, it's a request. They'd *prefer* if you didn't carry but won't stop you from doing so in their stores.

Fundamentally, nothing has changed.

gwgn02
09-17-2013, 11:34 PM
I'm a bit saddened by how many people on this board are willing to give up their gun rights before their morning latte. Go read the comments on the SFgate article and see if this will do any good for the pro 2A community. Besides now the Open Carry in your face idiots will just go super crazy open carry at Starbucks.

Basically they're saying they don't want to be engaged in the debate that's been thrust upon them.

They don't want to be involved in the politics, they don't want to have to deal with protests and counter-protests at their stores, and they don't want to put young and dumb employees in situations involving angry armed people in shouting matches with angry people wanting to disarm them.

From a business perspective, I can understand and empathize with that. As a citizen, I dislike it and it hands the anti's the minor political win, but it's their house. On the flip side, despite the heated reaction they're going to get from this from the 2A side, they're getting reamed just as hard if not harder by the Anti's for not having banned open carry completely as soon as they could. Hell, the National Gun Victims Action Council basically said they're on our side promoting a pro-gun agenda because they hadn't gone straight out and banned carrying when they demanded Starbucks do so.

That said, as noted in the statement, it's still not a ban nor a policy, it's a request. They'd *prefer* if you didn't carry but won't stop you from doing so in their stores.

Fundamentally, nothing has changed.

agrd

Doheny
09-17-2013, 11:42 PM
Doheny, if it comes down to a life and death situation, even though I don't know you personally, believe me, I'm on your side and will defend you to the end. So, stop judging a person by their post as gospel.

Huh? Don't you remember already responding to me? I guess this reply (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=12342187&postcount=58)of yours wasn't enough?

You must need some more Starbucks coffee to help wake you up! :chris:

Intel0116
09-17-2013, 11:44 PM
To Hell with Starbucks ! there coffie is over priced anyhow, id rather save the extra cash for my ammo stash !!!! I can go to 7/11 and get a good cup of joe for 99 cents.

Ninety
09-17-2013, 11:45 PM
https://scontent-a-lax.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/1236509_182451081938767_229581189_n.jpg

ENTHUSIAST
09-17-2013, 11:45 PM
I will be cashing out my Gold Card tomorrow and telling Howard Schultz's "partners" that due to them discriminating against my civil rights they will never see another dollar from me and they have lost me as a customer for life.

There are so many closet Anti-2A types on this board it disgusts me sometimes.

Hey Doheny aren't you a current or former cop that is now openly bashing open carriers in this thread?

Did you feel threatened when you and your gang buddies were not the only ones in the room carrying a gun or are you just another closet Anti-2A type?

A and O
09-17-2013, 11:51 PM
Agreed. Property rights are just as important as gun rights.

If (for any silly reason) I ask a guest not to bring a gun into my home, I'll expect them to comply or GTFO. My place, my rules.

Having said that, I have the choice to avoid Starbucks based on their rules, so I'll do just that.


Most certainly correct.

I'll even carry it further.

My Business, if I do not want to hire Negroes then I won't. Don't like it then leave.

This is why I choose not to use Paypal. They are anti gun and I respect their ignorance even if I do not agree with it.

I will now avoid Starbucks for two reasons.

1. Their CEO has a Sodomite Agenda

And

2. This Anti gun nonsense.

Oh well, no more Salted Mocha Frap for me, at least not from SB.

Doheny
09-17-2013, 11:56 PM
I will be cashing out my Gold Card tomorrow and telling Howard Schultz's "partners" that due to them discriminating against my civil rights they will never see another dollar from me and they have lost me as a customer for life.

There are so many closet Anti-2A types on this board it disgusts me sometimes.

Hey Doheny aren't you a current or former cop that is now openly bashing open carriers in this thread?

Did you feel threatened when you and your gang buddies were not the only ones in the room carrying a gun or are you just another closet Anti-2A type?

Nope, I've never said I was a cop. I've said plenty of times that my wife is a retired one. I will, however take your gold card off your hands so I can enjoy my Starbucks in the morning. ;)

And yeah, as I directed my earlier comments, someone who feels the need to OC a long gun in public deserves to be bashed. Maybe if more folks had bashed OC'ers in the first placed and kept them in check we'd still have that right to use discretely if need be and we wouldn't be in the current state of affairs that we are.

Now about that gold card...

.

a1c
09-18-2013, 12:00 AM
Most certainly correct.

I'll even carry it further.

My Business, if I do not want to hire Negroes then I won't. Don't like it then leave.

This is why I choose not to use Paypal. They are anti gun and I respect their ignorance even if I do not agree with it.

I will now avoid Starbucks for two reasons.

1. Their CEO has a Sodomite Agenda

Whaaaaaaaaaa....???

ENTHUSIAST
09-18-2013, 12:02 AM
So I guess the "No weapons in our store" policy means that all the people that carry a folding knife are no longer welcome as well.

Policy should read Our Public Request "Starbucks Victim Disarmament Policy" nice to see they wrote in an exemption for Law Enforcement as they deserve rights but us little people do not.

Vaktathi
09-18-2013, 12:03 AM
I will be cashing out my Gold Card tomorrow and telling Howard Schultz's "partners" that due to them discriminating against my civil rights they will never see another dollar from me and they have lost me as a customer for life.I feel I must make a note here. The guy/gal at the counter ("partners") didn't have any hand in crafting such a message, nor are they playing any part in the deliverance of said message and are undertaking no actions to enforce it. Hell they might even not have any idea of what you're talking about yet.

BZB
09-18-2013, 12:05 AM
Huh? Don't you remember already responding to me? I guess this reply (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=12342187&postcount=58)of yours wasn't enough?

You must need some more Starbucks coffee to help wake you up! :chris:

Go f**k yourself DH, you must be one of Difi's crony! The truth is, I don't even drink coffee.

ENTHUSIAST
09-18-2013, 12:05 AM
Nope, I've never said I was a cop. I've said plenty of times that my wife is a retired one. I will, however take your gold card off your hands so I can enjoy my Starbucks in the morning. ;)

And yeah, as I directed my earlier comments, someone who feels the need to OC a long gun in public deserves to be bashed. Maybe if more folks had bashed OC'ers in the first placed and kept them in check we'd still have that right to use discretely if need be and we wouldn't be in the current state of affairs that we are.

Now about that gold card...

.

My mistake but I will be cashing in my Gold Card to make sure they do not benefit from their position and I would encourage you and all others that are on this site to do the same. If you truly care about our Constitutional rights let them know that their bottom line will be negatively effected by their words and actions.

Rights are not really rights if you have to hide them for fear of discrimination. Should I put on white face paint if I am too brown or too black so as not to offend anyone?

A right not exercised out of fear is not really a right at all OCers demonstrated that and made it clear that our right to bear arms was already taken from us long before the OC movement ever got started.

stix213
09-18-2013, 12:06 AM
And here I was all supporting Starbucks, not because they are pro-gun, which I always assumed was not necessarily the case, but because it seemed clear they were standing up against the anti-gun pressure.... Guess that is over.

ENTHUSIAST
09-18-2013, 12:11 AM
I feel I must make a note here. The guy/gal at the counter ("partners") didn't have any hand in crafting such a message, nor are they playing any part in the deliverance of said message and are undertaking no actions to enforce it. Hell they might even not have any idea of what you're talking about yet.

They will be more than clear about what effect their CEO's message had on this former customer tomorrow.

a1c
09-18-2013, 12:15 AM
So I guess the "No weapons in our store" policy means that al the people that carry a folding knife are no longer welcome as well.

Policy should read Our Public Request "Starbucks Victim Disarmament Policy" nice to see they wrote in an exemption for Law Enforcement as they deserve rights but us little people do not.

A lot of people in this thread - including you - are not understanding the context here.

Starbucks is doing what any corporation out there would do: it doesn't like to see its intellectual property and brand hijacked by a particular group, especially one that's heavily politicized (not surprisingly, the open carry group is not exactly linked to the liberal left).

A lot of fanboys got very careless over the past year or so when Starbucks tolerated open carry activists. The company didn't want to offend anybody, and decided to walk that fine "if it's legal in the state, then we don't mind" line.

Those activists, for some reason, naively believed this meant Starbucks was on their side. That the policy wouldn't ever change. They got all excited about it, started wearing "Guns & Coffee" shirts, patronized Starbucks shops together, and so on. As if Starbucks gave a crap about their fight. It didn't. It's a corporation. Its goal is to make money. It has a very progressive agenda in the field of corporate responsibility - nothing that is even remotely related to the 2A. And again, it's here to make money for its shareholders. (By the way, if you really want to make your voice heard from SBUX, be smarter - get together, buy a tonload of shares, and make them count at the next shareholders meeting, and introduce a proposal - then again, I think you're wasting your time.)

And those open carry activists did not see this coming? Are you kidding me? This letter had obviously been written a while back already. It's obvious the Starbucks CEO had penned this but didn't want to release it until something really bad happened. And I suppose the D.C. shooting was the straw that broke the camel's back for him.

Just let it go, people. This was about the open carry movement and how visible they had gotten, and how Starbucks didn't appreciate seeing their brand appropriated by a third party. It was hugely predictable.

If you have a LTC, just carry concealed at Starbucks or anywhere else you get coffee. This is a stupid fight to have. If you are in here babbling about never patronizing Starbucks again (yeah, right) and you haven't called Governor Brown's office, then you are a waste of space. Redirect your energy where it matters.

ENTHUSIAST
09-18-2013, 12:23 AM
A1c I will NOT be giving them anymore of my money ever again despite your disbelief some people here have principles and a long memory.

But thanks for reminding me to call Gov. Jerry Brown tomorrow. (Again :) )

Vaktathi
09-18-2013, 12:30 AM
They will be more than clear about what effect their CEO's message had on this former customer tomorrow.
That may be, but they're really the wrong people to bring it up with. Anyone who has worked a customer-facing job like that can tell you that such employees do not care, their ability and willingness to care starts and stops with what is in their control, especially as they don't have anything to do with it and can't do anything about it except perform the manual task of cashing out the card (they don't record why you're cashing it out or anything). All they'll want you to do is leave and stop talking, and maybe have a joke or two about it on their break. If you actually want to send a message that'll do something other than just piss in some poor register-monkey's morning cheerios, you'll need to get someone in management that might actually have a role in informing upper management and distributing notices. I'm not saying you can't stop spending your money there if you don't like their message, but just realize the people at the register simply will not care about the reasons you're cashing your card out or be passing on any messages to someone who may care.

Doheny
09-18-2013, 12:33 AM
My Business, if I do not want to hire Negroes then I won't. Don't like it then leave.

That's the Gunner spirt!!!

:facepalm:



(FYI, the folks in federal court may see things differently...)

ENTHUSIAST
09-18-2013, 12:36 AM
That may be, but they're really the wrong people to bring it up with. Anyone who has worked a customer-facing job like that can tell you that such employees do not care, their ability and willingness to care starts and stops with what is in their control, especially as they don't have anything to do with it and can't do anything about it except perform the manual task of cashing out the card (they don't record why you're cashing it out or anything). All they'll want you to do is leave and stop talking, and maybe have a joke or two about it on their break. If you actually want to send a message that'll do something other than just piss in some poor register-monkey's morning cheerios, you'll need to get someone in management that might actually have a role in informing upper management and distributing notices. I'm not saying you can't stop spending your money there if you don't like their message, but just realize the people at the register simply will not care about the reasons you're cashing your card out or be passing on any messages to someone who may care.

Agreed, I will get the manager to cash me out not just a random barista.

Vaktathi
09-18-2013, 12:44 AM
Yeah, the managers are at least paid to appear to care, and have some ability to bump things up the chain of command.

BigJ
09-18-2013, 1:00 AM
Something bothered me about this letter when I read it but I couldn't put my finger on what. So I read it again and it hits me: "First, this is a request and not an outright ban. Why? Because we want to give responsible gun owners the chance to respect our request—and also because enforcing a ban would potentially require our partners to confront armed customers, and that is not a role I am comfortable asking Starbucks partners to take on."

That says two things to me. First, if you don't comply with our request you're not responsible. Notice he doesn't make the same accusation of those on the anti side who choose to continue to protest (something else he requests no longer take place). It's just the pro side who choose to protest that are irresponsible.

Second, confronting armed customers isn't something he wants his employees to do... What does being armed have to do with how a customer will respond to their requests?

If Starbucks truly wanted to remain neutral, they could have done a far better job of making this request without insulting gun owners, and not subtlety implying speaking to us is a dangerous proposition.

Vaktathi
09-18-2013, 1:16 AM
Second, confronting armed customers isn't something he wants his employees to do... What does being armed have to do with how a customer will respond to their requests? To be fair here, people act and react differently when they're armed, that's the whole point of the 2nd amendment. One must acknowledge there are potential differences in dealing with an armed versus an unarmed individual, unfortunately, that there are idiots in every group (everyone knows "that one guy" that you went shooting with once and never again...)

Couple that with Starbucks employees often being young dumb kids, and from a business/risk perspective, Starbucks wants to reduce the risk of something awkward happening.

Personally I'm of the opinion that that's weighing too much on the "guilty until proven innocent" side of things, prejuding people exercising their 2A rights in a manner you wouldn't typically do to other people, and not how I'd approach this issue if I were them, but that's also generally how such risk calculations work for businesses from their point of view.

BigJ
09-18-2013, 1:23 AM
To be fair here, people act and react differently when they're armed, that's the whole point of the 2nd amendment. I disagree. If having a firearm on you for personal protection changes how you respond to non life threatening situations, I believe you're carrying for the wrong reasons.

JM2012
09-18-2013, 2:16 AM
I don't think this change in policy has anything to do with Starbucks executives suddenly having less respect for our 2nd Amendment rights, but rather everything to do with running a business. Starbucks is in the business of providing relaxed places for people to buy and enjoy coffee and food; they are not in the business of providing a forum for political activism.

Some members of the open carry community misconstrued Starbucks' policy of simply following local law as support for our cause, and then chose to act in a manner that has not won many (any?) friends to our cause. Namely, showing up in groups in areas not accustomed to seeing armed citizens and becoming hostile and confrontational with law enforcement (whom most of the citizenry views as the good guys, most of the time.) These reckless individuals created a scene and a stir that Starbucks never wanted any part of. Now, Starbucks has to try and extricate themselves from this divisive and emotional scene so they can continue doing what they're supposed to do - sell coffee and make a profit for their shareholders.

If you choose to no longer patronize Starbucks because of their change in policy, then that's absolutely your choice. But then you should also stop patronizing the other dozens, if not hundreds, of other institutions and businesses (including the U.S. Post Office!) that do not want your guns (particularly openly carried ones) in their establishments.

Just because our 2A rights is a big part of my life and sociopolitical views doesn't mean it's everyone's focus - and I don't expect it to be. I couldn't care less if my car mechanic supports gun rights - as long as he continues to fix my car properly.

Personally, I plan to continue patronizing Starbucks and working for meaningful changes in both legislation and public opinion through positive (and non-confrontational) education, advocacy, and financial support of organizations and politicians that support 2A. If any coffee chain suddenly and publicly supports gun rights, I may consider taking my business there. But in the absence of such a place, I'll just continue paying Starbucks to do what they do - give me decent coffee - and leave my 2A advocacy to places where it might actually do some good.

mavericksun
09-18-2013, 2:36 AM
The problem is not OC people, it's the anti-gun crowd. There is nothing wrong with OC. Are these people going into Starbucks or any other place and threatening people? It's the Anti-Gun crowd that is causing an incident about people who are following the law. Reminded me of the first time at Pahrump, two older men walked into a mexican restaurant and took of their jackets to sit down. You can see the 1911s they are packing, no one got scared and no one called the cops. It was just normal everyday thing. Blaming OC for the hysteria of anti-gun people is just wrong. Starbucks does not want "weapons" in their stores but I don't see them complaining about people bringing in bats, knives, hand and feet into the stores. Bottom line is Starbucks is anti-gun, supporting them is anti-gun.

SPROCKET
09-18-2013, 4:39 AM
The letter mentions open carry and outdoor seating areas, so no doubt these tools had something to do with SB's decision:

vN0GcahEvIc

Yet another "win" for the open carry attention whoring jerkoffs. Well, they made their point, whatever the hell it was, and that's what's important, isn't it? Sometimes I think the 2A community is too stupid to retain our rights.

TireMan
09-18-2013, 4:52 AM
Very nice request considering the amount of people bringing firearms into Starbucks just to post the picture on Facebook.

This is the corporate way of saying "calm the **** down! And don't pull out your gun in our store unless you are going to shoot someone. Just like you normally would behave anywhere else. Tactitool male models, please pay $5 for your tai mocha frappa latte whup and leave your twitter feed in the car"

Luieburger
09-18-2013, 4:54 AM
Chill out guys. Nothing has changed. They still seve and allow gun owners to carry in their stores.

This whole press release is basically a "will you idiots SHUT UP now?" message to the anti-gun bigots who keep making mountains out of mole hills on this issue.

Edit: After thinking about it some more. This still pisses me off. I'll still carry when I go to Starbucks, but I won't be as enthusiastic about going. Probably won't go all that much anymore.

In other news. Starbuck's customer service page is down.

jaymz
09-18-2013, 5:08 AM
He could have said people should not make big political statements in the store or something like that, not please don't bring your guns to our stores.

What other big political statements have you seen at Starbucks lately?

I disagree. If having a firearm on you for personal protection changes how you respond to non life threatening situations, I believe you're carrying for the wrong reasons.

You just hit the nail on the head and you didn't even know it. The problem is likely not people open carrying for personal protection. The problem is people open carrying to make a political statement, which is the wrong reason. OC got banned in CA because people were carrying to make a statement, not because they were carrying for protection.

It's funny how people will ignore Starbucks' request to keep them out of the political spotlight, but now all of a sudden they're going to comply with the request to stay away from there if you are going to OC.

daveinwoodland
09-18-2013, 5:13 AM
Did any of you actually read the article????

Before spouting off, you might consider it.
They still caved and lost their nerve. I was just beginning to like them for their support of the Bill Of Rights. Their coffee sucks anyway so no loss there.

Their stance is "we want it both ways" so to me that's a ball less position to take.

GM4spd
09-18-2013, 5:25 AM
I was wondering how long it would take Starbucks to cave,It's ok by
me I can't afford it anyway,gotta buy ammo:D. Pete

LuvLRBs
09-18-2013, 5:36 AM
Starbucks has a very casual laid back atmosphere. It's a place to go to take a coffee break from working and relax, or to sit for a while with your laptop so you aren't alone at home. I can understand why open carry would bother some of the customers. I don't see a big deal here. You want a pumpkin latte, leave the gun locked up in the car for ten minutes, or conceal it.

This reminds me of how a small percentage of gays have to make being gay the most prominent thing about their persona. In your face gay. I don't care what they do in the bedroom, I don't have to know every random stranger's sexual orientation.

Some places should just be non-political.

SanPedroShooter
09-18-2013, 5:39 AM
Well, they don't want open carry.... They certainly didn't 'ban guns' like they damn well could have.

Shultz seems to be able to do something our Prez cant do, walk a fine line.

SanPedroShooter
09-18-2013, 5:43 AM
I feel I must make a note here. The guy/gal at the counter ("partners") didn't have any hand in crafting such a message, nor are they playing any part in the deliverance of said message and are undertaking no actions to enforce it. Hell they might even not have any idea of what you're talking about yet.

My wife manages a store, and she has no idea what this is.

It may not apply in OC banned states for obvious reasons.

Mr. P
09-18-2013, 5:47 AM
If you want to stay out of a fight, don't ask one side to do something to appease the other.

Bad move.

^^THIS^^

Dr.Lou
09-18-2013, 6:09 AM
"...customers no longer bring firearms into our stores..."

Yes, one needs to read between the lines.

MaHoTex
09-18-2013, 6:34 AM
"Pro-gun activists have used our stores as a political stage for media events misleadingly called “Starbucks Appreciation Days” that disingenuously portray Starbucks as a champion of “open carry.” To be clear: we do not want these events in our stores. Some anti-gun activists have also played a role in ratcheting up the rhetoric and friction, including soliciting and confronting our customers and partners."

^^^ D@mned if you do and D@mned is you don't. I believe this is from the events where the antis boycott Starbucks and the Pro-2A crew goes and spends extra money at the stores. Apparently that have turned it into a pro 2A event... :facepalm:

razorduc
09-18-2013, 6:36 AM
We are reading the article. We don't care if they ban them or not. They are asking people to not bring guns to their stores. It's like asking people kindly not to be gay in their stores, or not to be black in their stores.


Actually, no, it's nothing like your example. One can't separate one's blackness or gayness from one's person. It is also not a choice that that person made to be black or gay. We would be making a very conscious decision whether or not to carry a gun to their store.

I hate Starbucks coffee because it tastes horrible, but they're a private company that should be allowed to politely request certain behavior from their patrons. Just as we are allowed to choose to go or not go there.

dustoff31
09-18-2013, 6:37 AM
Open carry is not the real issue. People open carry here and no one looks twice. Starbucks isn't only located in California.

They got pressured and caved. Simple as that. Put the blame where it belongs and burn your guns and starbucks shirt.

No. In his letter, the CEO was pretty clear that it is all about open carry:

Recently, however, we’ve seen the “open carry” debate become increasingly uncivil and, in some cases, even threatening. Pro-gun activists have used our stores as a political stage for media events misleadingly called “Starbucks Appreciation Days” that disingenuously portray Starbucks as a champion of “open carry.” To be clear: we do not want these events in our stores. Some anti-gun activists have also played a role in ratcheting up the rhetoric and friction, including soliciting and confronting our customers and partners.

omgwtfbbq
09-18-2013, 6:39 AM
Well my stance is that if you CCWing, since OC is illegal in our fine state, odds are they aren't going to notice and it's a moot issue. If they do notice and ask you to leave, I highly doubt they are going have a problem with you waiting until you've gotten your over-priced burn coffee before you shag-on.

Do people who matter actually sit in Starbucks? Everyone I see there using the free wifi just seem sad and alone.

itisagoodname
09-18-2013, 6:50 AM
For my own safety i will avoid "gun free zones". That's the bottom line. My gf brought this to my attention this morning. I stopped drinking overpriced coffee months ago.

http://minutemennews.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/tumblr_m7j1jxhHDJ1qky4nho1_500.jpg

armenakadino
09-18-2013, 6:50 AM
At the end of the day it was going to happen sooner or later. The company was put in the middle of a debate it did not want to be between and I see nothing wrong with them trying to move away from that image. No where does it say cops or conceal carry are not allowed it does not make it a gun free zone. Last I checked if your doing open carry the gun is not very useful in a crisis with out a loaded mag.

Mjollnir
09-18-2013, 6:54 AM
If you read the full letter, it is obviously about open carry. Open carry as a concept is fine; the practical practice is not so fine. I'm really not thrilled to sit next to an in-your-face, "Here's my big gun - whatcha gonna do about it" person when I sit down to enjoy some fresh brewed coffee.
Think of Starbucks as the Neutral Zone. :oji:

So, the concept of practicing our 2nd amendment rights is ok but the actual usage of these rights is not? I'm appalled at the amount of pushovers in this thread. This is exactly how the socialist scum have taken over.

sdblu
09-18-2013, 6:55 AM
This is not unlike any company that chooses to have a policy to not allow guns in their establishment.
They have that right.
As we have a right not to frequent and support their business.


You may contact them and let them know your feelings here:

http://customerservice.starbucks.com/app/contact/ask_retail_stores/

norcal.xd
09-18-2013, 7:03 AM
Looks like their listening to someone. Just not to pro 2a peeps.


http://dailycaller.com/2013/08/22/worried-about-nonexistent-shootings-activists-pressure-starbucks-to-ban-guns/

Bruce
09-18-2013, 7:03 AM
http://www.thebangswitch.com/our-own-worst-enemy/

The man's right.

ConfucianScholar
09-18-2013, 7:06 AM
That insolent CEO wants law abiding, responsible gun owners to skip their constitutionally protected right "out of civility"? I am never stepping into an starbucks again.

Vaktathi
09-18-2013, 7:11 AM
So, the concept of practicing our 2nd amendment rights is ok but the actual usage of these rights is not? I'm appalled at the amount of pushovers in this thread. This is exactly how the socialist scum have taken over.
Just because it's practicing a right doesn't mean it can't be obnoxious. There's plenty of people/organizations that I wish would take a little more care in exercising their 1A rights but they obviously aren't required to. Similarly, there are obnoxious ways to practice the 2nd amendment, or any other such civil right.

Frito Bandido
09-18-2013, 7:23 AM
If you stop the emotional knee-jerk reactions and just read between the lines, they are simply asking you to carry concealed rather than openly. Don't most people who carry, do so concealed rather than openly in an effort to actively avoid confrontation wherever possible? They don't want their stores to be the epicenter of the pro-gun vs anti-gun debate. Not a big deal.

furyous68
09-18-2013, 7:25 AM
They said:

"That’s why I am writing today with a respectful request that customers no longer bring firearms into our stores or outdoor seating areas."

Sounds like they don't want any of your scary guns in the store concealed or not. I will comply. Neither my gun or I will go into their stores or outdoor seating areas.

They also said:

Schultz hopes people will honor the request not to bring in guns but says the company will nevertheless serve those who do.

"We will not ask you to leave," he said.

AND (bold print my emphasis):

The Seattle-based company plans to buy ad space in major national newspapers including The New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Washington Post and USA Today on Thursday to run an open letter from Schultz explaining the decision. The letter points to recent activities by both gun rights and gun control advocates at its stores, saying that it has been "thrust unwillingly" into the middle of the national debate over firearms.

Can you blame them? Once again, our open carry boys ruined a good thing by bringing unwanted attention. WE RUINED IT BY MAKING THEIR STORE A POLITICAL VENUE. Starbucks has nothing to do with firearms. They never took a side, other than the side of respecting the law. They have customers on both sides of the debate. Now they are doing what's best for their business by trying to make it a business... not a political pulpit.

I swear, sometimes we just get in our own damn way. The anti's don't even need to say a word most of the time. I don't drink coffee, and go into Starbucks maybe once a month for a Green Tea Frap. So, no... I'm not a fan boy.

Calgunner739
09-18-2013, 7:36 AM
...Recently, however, we’ve seen the “open carry” debate become increasingly uncivil and, in some cases, even threatening. Pro-gun activists have used our stores as a political stage for media events misleadingly called “Starbucks Appreciation Days” that disingenuously portray Starbucks as a champion of “open carry.” To be clear: we do not want these events in our stores. Some anti-gun activists have also played a role in ratcheting up the rhetoric and friction, including soliciting and confronting our customers and partners.

For these reasons, today we are respectfully requesting that customers no longer bring firearms into our stores or outdoor seating areas—even in states where “open carry” is permitted—unless they are authorized law enforcement personnel....


Goodbye Starbucks.

mag360
09-18-2013, 7:47 AM
It never would have been an issue if open carriers just normally trickled in and bought their coffee and left. Instead it turned into a spectacle. I'm sure in some areas people will continue to OC on occasion and it will be a moot point.

Uranium238
09-18-2013, 7:50 AM
Screw Starbucks. I make my own coffee anyways that doesn't taste like someone forgot to clean the soap out of the pot.

RP1911
09-18-2013, 7:51 AM
One a day vente latte habit is about $30 a week. That's $1560 a year. Imagine what 100 'Starbucks addicts' funding pro 2A activities could accomplish.

Ninety
09-18-2013, 7:52 AM
At the end of the day it was going to happen sooner or later. The company was put in the middle of a debate it did not want to be between and I see nothing wrong with them trying to move away from that image. No where does it say cops or conceal carry are not allowed it does not make it a gun free zone. Last I checked if your doing open carry the gun is not very useful in a crisis with out a loaded mag.

When was the last time you checked?? Many states allow you to OC locked and loaded.. in fact I don't know of any state that allows you to OC that doesn't allow you to OC loaded...

CA was the state with that ridiculous law.

Goodbye Starbucks.

This^^
No big deal.. but if you think you are 2A and still go to Starbucks you are a traitor. The only way these people understand anything is the bottom line.. you think the Anti's stopped going there/? Even if they went there at all? Where as the 2A crowd made it a point to go there.. spend more .. blah blah blah.. it is his right to make this statement.. it does cater to both sides.. it's a business decision and everyone can choose not to go there.

A couple of employees chimed in on their facebook page stating that they didn't mind people having guns in there and that they felt safer with people LTC having their firearms.. This has spun into a political thing for many reasons.. they didn't ban guns but they did come out and make a anti 2A statement.. an anti civil rights statement.. Put your money where you mouth is.. I don't shop at places that ban guns. No problem. There are plenty of places that have chosen not to make a stand one way or another..

I guess time will tell.. if they notice a loss in revenue and are continually told why their numbers are down.. maybe they will reverse course.. but if you continue to frequent them you are complicant in the destruction of our 2A acceptance.


And for all you Anti OC people.. you blame OC being outlawed in CA from these people.. and you think that it would have never been banned without them?? With all the bills on the governors desk.. do you really believe that?? Kes?

SlobRay
09-18-2013, 7:54 AM
It's true, they have officially caved in to the anti's and turned their backs on 2A advocates, but are trying not to hurt their bottom line by saying "we are neither pro or anti, you can come spend your money, but don't bring your guns." The part of his letter that shows me that he really is an anti and really is scared of guns is this quote
First, this is a request and not an outright ban. Why? Because we want to give responsible gun owners the chance to respect our request—and also because enforcing a ban would potentially require our partners to confront armed customers, and that is not a role I am comfortable asking Starbucks partners to take on.

Because if you have a gun, you are dangerous and most likely a homicidal maniac intent on murdering as many people as possible.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2013/09/18/starbucks-coffee-guns-ceo-schultz/2829937/

Ray

problemchild
09-18-2013, 7:58 AM
http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Starbucks-says-guns-unwelcome-though-not-banned-4823265.php



NEW YORK (AP) — Starbucks says guns are no longer welcome in its cafes, though it is stopping short of an outright ban on firearms.
The fine line that the retailer is walking to address the concerns of both gun rights and gun control advocates reflects how heated the issue has become, particularly in light of recent mass shootings.
Most states allow people to openly carry licensed guns in some way and many companies do not have policies banning firearms in their stores. But Starbucks has become a target for gun control advocates, in part because of its liberal-leaning corporate image. In turn, gun rights advocates have been galvanized by the company's decision to defer to local laws.
In an interview, CEO Howard Schultz (http://www.sfgate.com/?controllerName=search&action=search&channel=news%2Fcrime&search=1&inlineLink=1&query=%22Howard+Schultz%22) said the decision to ask customers to stop bringing guns into stores came as a result of the growing frequency of "Starbucks Appreciation Days" in recent months, in which gun rights advocates turn up at Starbucks cafes with firearms.
Last month, for example, the company closed down a store in Newtown, Conn., for the day after learning that gun rights advocates planned to hold a "Starbucks Appreciation Day" at the location. The store was near the school where a gunman killed 20 children and six women.
Schultz said the events mischaracterized the company's stance on the issue and the demonstrations "have made our customers uncomfortable."
Schultz hopes people will honor the request not to bring in guns but says the company will nevertheless serve those who do.
"We will not ask you to leave," he said.
The Seattle-based company plans to buy ad space in major national newspapers including The New York Times (http://www.sfgate.com/?controllerName=search&action=search&channel=news%2Fcrime&search=1&inlineLink=1&query=%22New+York+Times%22), Wall Street Journal (http://www.sfgate.com/?controllerName=search&action=search&channel=news%2Fcrime&search=1&inlineLink=1&query=%22Wall+Street+Journal%22), Washington Post and USA Today (http://www.sfgate.com/?controllerName=search&action=search&channel=news%2Fcrime&search=1&inlineLink=1&query=%22USA+Today%22) on Thursday to run an open letter from Schultz explaining the decision. The letter points to recent activities by both gun rights and gun control advocates at its stores, saying that it has been "thrust unwillingly" into the middle of the national debate over firearms.
As for the "Starbucks Appreciation Days" being staged by gun rights advocates, it stresses: "To be clear: we do not want these events in our stores."
But the letter notes that Starbucks is standing by its position that the matter should ultimately be left to lawmakers. Schultz also said he doesn't want to put workers in the position of having to confront armed customers by banning guns.
The AP was provided a picture of a memo to Starbucks employees on Tuesday. Partners are instructed not to confront customers or ask them to leave solely for carrying a weapon.
Several companies do not allow firearms in their stores, however, apparently with little trouble. Representatives for Peet's Coffee & Tea and Whole Foods, for example, said there haven't been any problems with enforcing their gun bans.
Moms Demand Action for Gun Sense in America, which was formed the day after the Newtown, Conn., school shooting, has been organizing "Skip Starbucks Saturdays" to urge the coffee company to ban guns at its stores. Participants take photos of themselves at competitors such as Peet's that do not allow guns and post them online.
Shannon Watts (http://www.sfgate.com/?controllerName=search&action=search&channel=news%2Fcrime&search=1&inlineLink=1&query=%22Shannon+Watts%22), founder of the gun reform group, noted that Starbucks has taken strong stances on other issues. Earlier this year, for example, the company banned smoking within 25 feet of its stores, wherever its leases allowed. The idea was to extend its no-smoking policy to the outdoor seating areas.
"There's a big difference in the connotation of someone holding a gun and someone holding a cigarette," Schultz said.
In the meantime, Starbucks has become a symbol for advocates of gun rights. A website now even sells products bearing an altered version of the Starbucks logo, with the siren holding up a gun in each hand with the words "I Love Guns & Coffee."

SoCal326
09-18-2013, 8:18 AM
Do people who matter actually sit in Starbucks?

This comment made me giggle a bit.

Really though, people shouldn't have tried to turn a coffee shop into a 2nd amendment soapbox. What did people expect, Starbucks should serve coffee, not political agendas.

TheDigitalPicasso
09-18-2013, 8:32 AM
Major :dupe:

IPSICK
09-18-2013, 8:37 AM
I probably would've been OK if they were against open carry in their stores, but there was no indication of even being OK with legal concealed carry. They have now made themselves an unsafe "gun-free" zone. So they now have 3 strikes against them.

1. Unsafe/vulnerable locataion
2. Disrespect of our rights
3. Terrible coffee

razorduc
09-18-2013, 8:40 AM
Well my stance is that if you CCWing, since OC is illegal in our fine state, odds are they aren't going to notice and it's a moot issue. If they do notice and ask you to leave, I highly doubt they are going have a problem with you waiting until you've gotten your over-priced burn coffee before you shag-on.

Do people who matter actually sit in Starbucks? Everyone I see there using the free wifi just seem sad and alone.

Ha. Depends on what you mean by "matter". I'm not important to the world, but for my company I support accounts at a large healthcare provider (our largest single client). Starbucks is the best place for me to reliably be able to get a wireless connection to do work when I'm going to or from a client site and can't stop at the office in between. So to our little company, I matter. :D

To you, I likely don't matter. I can always find other places to leach free wi-fi, but it takes more time to find it and make sure it's reliable. Especially at a new job site.

I was surprised recently at two different Starbucks, there was someone there on a Mac computer. Not a laptop, but the full big screen desktop. Not sure wtf those people do.

Doheny
09-18-2013, 8:40 AM
If you stop the emotional knee-jerk reactions and just read between the lines, they are simply asking you to carry concealed rather than openly. Don't most people who carry, do so concealed rather than openly in an effort to actively avoid confrontation wherever possible? They don't want their stores to be the epicenter of the pro-gun vs anti-gun debate. Not a big deal.

Please leave logic and common sense out of this; knee-jerk responses only please!

I'm guessing most in this thread haven't even read the CEO's letter. It clearly mentions open carry a number if times, something we can't even do in CA.

problemchild
09-18-2013, 9:00 AM
You are all crazy!

The CEO supported Obama who is rabid antigun. Either way your money is going to an antigun agenda. The CEO of starwhorescoffee was giving your pro-gun-starbucks cash right to O for his election campaign so O could ban guns "under the radar"

..................
Starbucks CEO Howard Schultz, who waged a high-profile campaign last year against partisan gridlock in Washington, said Thursday he will once again vote for President Obama.
Schultz said in an interview with CNBC that Obama has shown (lipstick and kneepads on) "significant leadership" (ROTFLMAO) and the "kind of stewardship of the economy in the country and in world affairs" that deserves a second term.

kbenson
09-18-2013, 9:33 AM
Just like any employer can terminate employment for any reason- An establishment has the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason.

Starbucks was on my pooplist b4 this issue and nothing has changed for me.

The thing I find crazy, is the long line of cars which snake around the place during various times of the day. Perfectly good coffee shop less than a 1/2 bock away with just 2-3 customers inside. Are the starbucks zombies to fargin lazy and too rich to get out of the vehicle and walk inside?

Make a pot of coffee at home, fill thermos and you are set for the day. Also if you must buy coffee on the road, buy from the little guys who may also be pro gun and perhaps even one of us.

fr33domfightr
09-18-2013, 9:34 AM
Something bothered me about this letter when I read it but I couldn't put my finger on what. So I read it again and it hits me: "First, this is a request and not an outright ban. Why? Because we want to give responsible gun owners the chance to respect our request—and also because enforcing a ban would potentially require our partners to confront armed customers, and that is not a role I am comfortable asking Starbucks partners to take on."

That says two things to me. First, if you don't comply with our request you're not responsible. Notice he doesn't make the same accusation of those on the anti side who choose to continue to protest (something else he requests no longer take place). It's just the pro side who choose to protest that are irresponsible.

Second, confronting armed customers isn't something he wants his employees to do... What does being armed have to do with how a customer will respond to their requests?

If Starbucks truly wanted to remain neutral, they could have done a far better job of making this request without insulting gun owners, and not subtlety implying speaking to us is a dangerous proposition.


^^^^I totally agree with this! It IS one-sided discrimination. Their property right, but it is discrimination.

emtmark
09-18-2013, 9:38 AM
Ditto

IVC
09-18-2013, 9:40 AM
[F yeah, as I directed my earlier comments, someone who feels the need to OC a long gun in public deserves to be bashed. [/FONT]

Does someone who feels the need to be openly gay in public also deserves to be bashed?

Just checking where the limits of "bashing for offending sensibilities" are...

SOAR79
09-18-2013, 9:41 AM
Total shame

IVC
09-18-2013, 9:44 AM
Just like any employer can terminate employment for any reason- An establishment has the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason.

Nope, there are "protected classes" that businesses open to the public cannot discriminate against. The general idea is that businesses that operate in public are not allowed to violate civil liberties.

If 2A was seen for what it is, a civil liberty, this type of discrimination would be illegal. It's only because 2A is a "lesser right" that this type of behavior is legal.

Again, compare this to the bakery in Oregon that refused to bake a cake for a gay wedding. It didn't turn out well for them and they were attacked by the same people who are cheering Starbucks discriminating against gun owners.

Flaunting around guns to those who think it's in poor taste is no different than flaunting around sexuality to those who believe it's in poor taste. Yet, we have both because there is always someone who wants to attack those who are "different."

mjmagee67
09-18-2013, 9:59 AM
So they are respectfully asking you not to bring your weapon in, BUT are going to do NOTHING if you do. Everyone is pissed god folks get a life.

They say they are neither Pro or Anti gun, makes sense they are a coffee shop after all. The issue I see is too many made it an issue and they got a ton of correspondence from the Anti's so they are asking nicely, but say they are not doing anything if you do.

So they are saying "we are a coffee shop not a political action business".

Not a big fan of Charbucks but this won't stop me from going.

How many of you are wearing Levi's????

mavericksun
09-18-2013, 10:04 AM
At the end of the day it was going to happen sooner or later. The company was put in the middle of a debate it did not want to be between and I see nothing wrong with them trying to move away from that image. No where does it say cops or conceal carry are not allowed it does not make it a gun free zone. Last I checked if your doing open carry the gun is not very useful in a crisis with out a loaded mag.

OC without a loaded mag is a stupid concept existing in CA. People open carry with a loaded weapon in other states.

jaymz
09-18-2013, 10:09 AM
And for all you Anti OC people.. you blame OC being outlawed in CA from these people.. and you think that it would have never been banned without them?? With all the bills on the governors desk.. do you really believe that?? Kes?

For the record, I'm not anti-open carry. But to answer your question - no. I don't believe that OC in CA would have been banned had people oc'd for protection vs. carrying to make a political statement. With rights come responsibilities. Exercise a right irresponsibly and that right is going to be stripped away. Porn is generally protected as a 1A right. Start waving it around in people's faces and see what happens (for the record, I'm not anti-porn either:D).

Ronin2
09-18-2013, 10:13 AM
They are trying to play both sides it seems.

Not at all... Starbucks is a BUSINESS, in business to serve the public, gun owners and non gun owners equally. The CEO has a fiduciary responsibility to the shareholders to maximize corporate profits, not promote ANY personal political agenda. He can be fired and held liable if he makes mistakes that effect profitability of the company. HIS JOB IS TO SELL AS MUCH STARBUCKS PRODUCT AS POSSIBLE!!!

While he did not say that you cant do it, he asked that you refrain from making Starbucks a flash point in the debate to the point that it disrupts business... a perfectly understandable and reasonable position ANY business owner has the right to ask. Clearly the open carry idiots descending on a Starbucks location in groups scare off and upset the non gun owners. Seems simple enough... they want to keep everyone as customers and don't want to be a campaign rally point for open carry advocates just because they have not forbidden open carry.

The Neanderthal wing of the gun owning public have obtusely gone over the edge again and have taken a major corporation that was cool with open carry and PUSHED it in the direction of being more restrictive. Why cant these open carry fools that time they have on their hands and sign up new NRA members, raise money for the 2nd amendment foundation, register republican voters, protest anti gun politicians offices, protest anti gun business to raise public awareness, clean up a public shooting area or ANYTHING more constructive than sitting around chatting away while showing off their guns... LOL Clearly LAZYNESS may play into it......

NOTE: Starbucks still permits CCW in its stores unlike many businesses. Do we really want gun owning idiots to force Starbucks over the edge and ban all carry in their stores... cuz that's where all the "bubba's" are taking this.....

There is a lesson here somewhere but I suspect the subtleties are beyond the grasp of many of our fellow gun owners. Another example of tactical and not strategic thinking....and we wonder why we are losing.......

mavericksun
09-18-2013, 10:22 AM
So they are respectfully asking you not to bring your weapon in, BUT are going to do NOTHING if you do. Everyone is pissed god folks get a life.

They say they are neither Pro or Anti gun, makes sense they are a coffee shop after all. The issue I see is too many made it an issue and they got a ton of correspondence from the Anti's so they are asking nicely, but say they are not doing anything if you do.

So they are saying "we are a coffee shop not a political action business".

Not a big fan of Charbucks but this won't stop me from going.

How many of you are wearing Levi's????

So the Antis made a fuss over it and they caved to served the antis agenda. That is taking the side of the antis and saying that you can not take you weapon into the store. It's their right to ask for that, but it's also my right as a gun owner to refuse to patronize them. Bottom line is they took the side of the antis in asking for gun owners to not do something within the laws at their store. Blaming this on OC people is just stupid. Why should OC scare people? Do people get upset and call the cops when someone is openly gay or is a minority? No one is breaking the laws here but yet one is treated with a different reaction than another. Nothing will change legislatively in California or US if we allow the demonization of guns to be allowed in any form.

DTOM CA!
09-18-2013, 10:31 AM
You guys that think this is no big deal should give all your guns away at the next gun buyback and take the money and find a new sport or hobby that wont offend anyone. I know someone selling their beanie baby collection and they have the limited edition "care bear" that is sure to impress your metrosexual latte mocha half calf drinking Starbucks friends.

mjmagee67
09-18-2013, 10:31 AM
So the Antis made a fuss over it and they caved to served the antis agenda. That is taking the side of the antis and saying that you can not take you weapon into the store. It's their right to ask for that, but it's also my right as a gun owner to refuse to patronize them. Bottom line is they took the side of the antis in asking for gun owners to not do something within the laws at their store. Blaming this on OC people is just stupid. Why should OC scare people? Do people get upset and call the cops when someone is openly gay or is a minority? No one is breaking the laws here but yet one is treated with a different reaction than another. Nothing will change legislatively in California or US if we allow the demonization of guns to be allowed in any form.

Seriously do you have a reading comprehension problem? There are not banning anyone, they ask nicely, BUT openly state they are not doing a damn thing if you do. Its just a fight they don't want to be in the middle of, as opposed to Safeway "No Firearms Allowed".

Find someone else to be mad at, there are a lot out there that are openly anti 2nd.

Sakiri
09-18-2013, 10:37 AM
See http://www.gunssavelife.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/sbux.jpeg

You want to know where the problem was?

Open carry rallies at Starbucks.

All of the idiots hosting gatherings with guns on your hips are what prompted this. They don't care if you carry in their store. They ask you not to, but they won't remove you.

THEY DO NOT WANT TO BE CENTER STAGED IN THIS. Gathering there for all the open carry events is what did this. Not MDA.

schneiderguy
09-18-2013, 10:40 AM
So, the concept of practicing our 2nd amendment rights is ok but the actual usage of these rights is not? I'm appalled at the amount of pushovers in this thread. This is exactly how the socialist scum have taken over.

You have no 2A rights inside of a private business, just like you have no 1A rights on Calguns.

The 2nd Amendment prevents the government from infringing upon your rights.

Ninety
09-18-2013, 10:53 AM
You want to know where the problem was?

Open carry rallies at Starbucks.

All of the idiots hosting gatherings with guns on your hips are what prompted this. They don't care if you carry in their store. They ask you not to, but they won't remove you.

THEY DO NOT WANT TO BE CENTER STAGED IN THIS. Gathering there for all the open carry events is what did this. Not MDA.


I Agree..

infamous1979
09-18-2013, 10:59 AM
Is Chuck E Cheese still open carry friendly?!?!

A and O
09-18-2013, 12:18 PM
You have no 2A rights inside of a private business, just like you have no 1A rights on Calguns.

The 2nd Amendment prevents the government from infringing upon your rights.

This is 100% Correct

Things have really got turned around in peoples thinking re rights in this Country.

five.five-six
09-18-2013, 12:23 PM
You have no 2A rights inside of a private business, just like you have no 1A rights on Calguns.

The 2nd Amendment prevents the government from infringing upon your rights.

Same goes for being black or gay, their store, their rules.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I437 using Tapatalk 2

CalBear
09-18-2013, 12:28 PM
It's not a strong policy, and I truly believe Starbucks would never have acted if the presence of firearms in their stores was limited to CCW and open carry by individuals in their normal routine. It was the use of their venue as an OC meetup spot, the portrayal of Starbucks as a champion of open carry, the unauthorized marketing campaign of guns and coffee... They tried to stay out of the gun debate, but open carry activists co-opted them onto the pro OC side. This is the result.

CalBear
09-18-2013, 12:30 PM
Here's the Guns and Coffee response from Facebook, posted just seconds ago:

We have a question for the folks who thought that carrying a long gun into a coffee shop was a good idea... WHAT DID YOU THINK WAS GOING TO HAPPEN?!?!

From the beginning, they have NEVER been pro-2A. They did a good job at being as neutral as possible while still respecting the rights and views of ALL of their customers. As the anti-2A groups stepped up their attacks, they held firm on their position to follow the local laws and regulations surrounding the carrying of firearms.

The future of I Guns & Coffee has not changed and we will not be changing our iconic parody. We still love our 2A right. We still love our coffee and we still support companies, ALL companies, that support the rule of law when it comes to the 2A. What we cannot support are the actions of a few who thought that it was a good idea to strap on a long gun to make a political statement. Firearms are personal protection tools, not props to be used as political statements. From day one they have asked that those who wish to make a political statement do so with their elected representatives and to keep the fight out of their stores. Simple right? But some could not resist. The sought attention. They grabbed their soap boxes, called local media and went out of their way to make a scene. Yes, we know you have the right to do it, but businesses also have the right to dictate what type of behavior is acceptable in their businesses. With rights comes responsibility. In our opinion, carrying a long gun into a coffee shop = responsibility FAIL! If our goal is to increase support for the 2A, civil discourse, empathy, logic and reason will help the most. Trolling with long guns while filming police interactions and posting them YouTube while sitting outside a coffee shop does not help.

Next, we think it is time to address some thoughts about this word that has been floating around this morning: boycott. We think that sends the wrong message. Remember, this is not an outright ban, it is a polite request. If carrying a concealed pistol is part of your daily routine, what has changed? Their position never changed, at least until this last round of anti-2A vs. pro-2A got going. We never condoned nor encouraged organized groups to invade their stores. Keeping it simple seemed like the best approach: wear your t-shirt, hand out a sticker or two, order your coffee and go on about your day. You could even pay with $2 bills. That passive approach is good strategy to combat the misguided ranting from the anti-2A groups. But some had to take it a step further. Remember when the Newtown, CT store closed early last month? Think about that for a moment. Action = reaction. Can we react better to anti-2A groups? How can we build bridges and come to mutual understanding with those that do not see eye to eye with our views?

Thank you to everyone who has commented and shared their thoughts through social media. We appreciate the time you take to make your comments. We rarely nuke comments so please keep it classy, civil and avoid name calling. We will continue to support our customers, vendors and non-profits who see value from our growing line of parody brands. Parodies are fun and bringing people joy with I Guns & Coffee is here to stay.
I think they nailed it re: OC advocates politicizing Starbucks and disrespecting the company's request to leave them out of the politics.

Vaktathi
09-18-2013, 12:42 PM
Same goes for being black or gay, their store, their rules.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I437 using Tapatalk 2
Hrm, only for certain things. You can't refuse service to some one for being black. There are just some things even a private business cannot discriminate on, on a federal level, the Federal Civil Rights Act guarantees all people the right to "full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, and accommodations of any place of public accommodation, without discrimination or segregation on the ground of race, color, religion, or national origin." Some states have additional laws on top of that, I don't know how it works in CA, but I know in Oregon for instance you cannot refuse service to someone for being Gay.

The physical carrying of a firearm however is not protected thusly as far as I can tell, though I do believe based on court cases involving the FCA they could not refuse service based on being a firearm owner or 2A supporter as a belief. So they can say "you can't bring that gun in here" if they want, but they can't say "we won't serve you because you like guns".

omgwtfbbq
09-18-2013, 12:57 PM
I think the whole thing is getting totally blown out of proportion. Private property laws already state that the owner of the property can dictate if the property will be a "gun free zone" or not. This is nothing new.

As I've stated earlier, if you are carrying concealed, which is the only legal form of carry still left in the state, then there is no reason for anyone to ever know you brought a gun in the store in the first place.

a1c
09-18-2013, 1:00 PM
Same goes for being black or gay, their store, their rules.

Actually, that's not a good analogy. You're completely wrong here. A store can not discriminate against customers on the basis of race, color, religion or nationality.

SOAR79
09-18-2013, 1:11 PM
there must be more behind this

David13
09-18-2013, 1:15 PM
I no longer want Starbucks coffee inside me.
dc

five.five-six
09-18-2013, 1:16 PM
A civil rights is a civil right, if they can discriminate you for any civil right they can discriminate against you for any civil rights

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I437 using Tapatalk 2


Perhaps we should have a poll tax for anyone that wants to exercise their 2nd Amendment rights after that we can make them pass a test before they can vote.

fr33domfightr
09-18-2013, 3:05 PM
Next time there's a riot somewhere, will the pro 2A folks help protect the store? The anti's?

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NoHeavyHitter
09-18-2013, 3:38 PM
Fair enough...

No more starbucks for me. :)

mavericksun
09-18-2013, 4:22 PM
Seriously do you have a reading comprehension problem? There are not banning anyone, they ask nicely, BUT openly state they are not doing a damn thing if you do. Its just a fight they don't want to be in the middle of, as opposed to Safeway "No Firearms Allowed".

Find someone else to be mad at, there are a lot out there that are openly anti 2nd.

When their memo states "we do want to make it clear that weapons are not welcome in our stores" and "Everyone is welcome in our stores, weapons are not". That is pretty much a ban. They just don't want any liability if they force their partners to enforce the ban that's why they don't outright "ban" it.

mavericksun
09-18-2013, 4:26 PM
You want to know where the problem was?

Open carry rallies at Starbucks.

All of the idiots hosting gatherings with guns on your hips are what prompted this. They don't care if you carry in their store. They ask you not to, but they won't remove you.

THEY DO NOT WANT TO BE CENTER STAGED IN THIS. Gathering there for all the open carry events is what did this. Not MDA.

If you look at the memo in the link, they do care that you carry in their store. Remember the lines in there. "we do want to make it clear that weapons are not welcome in our stores" and "Everyone is welcome in our stores, weapons are not". They don't want guns in their stores, they just don't want the liability of trying to enforce the policy.

five.five-six
09-18-2013, 4:31 PM
I'm just going to make a nice memo saying gays and colored people are not welcome in my store.

mavericksun
09-18-2013, 4:37 PM
It's not a strong policy, and I truly believe Starbucks would never have acted if the presence of firearms in their stores was limited to CCW and open carry by individuals in their normal routine. It was the use of their venue as an OC meetup spot, the portrayal of Starbucks as a champion of open carry, the unauthorized marketing campaign of guns and coffee... They tried to stay out of the gun debate, but open carry activists co-opted them onto the pro OC side. This is the result.

They are picking on the gun crowd. Do you think they would be upset if the local LGBT group decided to hold their weekly meetings at their stores? And if the LGBT portray Starbucks as a pro-LGBT store would they be issuing this public policy release? The OC crowd didn't co-opt them to any side. The support for them in the past was about their willingness to follow the law and not to set policy against gun owners. The anti-gun crowd didn't like the fact that Starbucks was not anti-gun and made these complaints and Starbucks caved into the demands of the anti-gun crowd to show that they were not pro-gun. Their own internal memo states their own policy of not allowing weapons in their stores. They just don't want any liability and negative backlash from enforcing that policy. They didn't stay neutral, they chose to back the anti-gun crowd.

Ronin2
09-18-2013, 4:42 PM
Next time there's a riot somewhere, will the pro 2A folks help protect the store? The anti's?

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ROFL... Ok "Mr Prepper". As if anyone is going to leave their homes and families to protect a strip mall somewhere.....

Ronin2
09-18-2013, 4:45 PM
A civil rights is a civil right, if they can discriminate you for any civil right they can discriminate against you for any civil rights

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Perhaps we should have a poll tax for anyone that wants to exercise their 2nd Amendment rights after that we can make them pass a test before they can vote.

Funny how so many gun owners are upset against this issue but have no problem wanting to supress gay and lesbian citizens their rights to express themselves publicly....

voiceofreason
09-18-2013, 6:15 PM
My response to their canned corporate response to my email.

---

Starbucks CLEARLY doesn't respect civil rights. The tone of the open letter that you don't want your partners to confront armed people... is clearly anti-civil/gun rights. As if law abiding gun owners would shoot your partners... the ignorance is ridiculous.

I guess that your company is happy to have fewer gun owner customers entering their local Starbucks.

What happened to "just say yes"?

Now it's "pretend to be neutral while giving the bigots their way".

This is the 21st century form of discrimination and in a decade or 2 will be recognized as such.

May as well place a sign on your windows that says "No Niggers Allowed".

Bigotry is bigotry.

Starbucks is simply doing it at the corporate level.

How would this sound?:

"Starbucks isn't banning colored people from our stores, we're simply requesting that they not enter our stores voluntarily."

fr33domfightr
09-18-2013, 8:56 PM
ROFL... Ok "Mr Prepper". As if anyone is going to leave their homes and families to protect a strip mall somewhere.....

Well, during the Rodney King riots here in LA, a group of armed (openly carrying) Koreans protected their business. All other unprotected stores were looted and burned to the ground. The Korean store remained intact and unharmed.

Yes, if my city is under attack by gangsters I will protect property. But I'll make the call on which property owner to help.

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five.five-six
09-18-2013, 9:00 PM
Funny how so many gun owners are upset against this issue but have no problem wanting to supress gay and lesbian citizens their rights to express themselves publicly....

:popcorn:

Please, do go on...

sharxbyte
09-18-2013, 9:27 PM
I could but I don't want to. One of the main reasons I spent so much money at that store was their pro 2A policies. Here is where we can see who the real 2A supporters are. We all have to make sacrifices for our rights. Not drinking foofy coffee drinks is a pretty small one.

they never had "pro 2a" policies. just lacked anti 2a policies, which is better than not. I hate how everyone is blaming them for what some of us did.

http://practicaltacticalpodcast.com/starbucks/

five.five-six
09-18-2013, 9:45 PM
Well ah....



Looks like we can clearly see your hypocrisy on the issue....

Cheers!



Looks like you clearly don't understand hyperbole. You seem rather proud of your ignorance.

bombadillo
09-18-2013, 10:13 PM
For those in Humboldt, go shop at Jitter Bean coffee shop. He is Pro God/Pro Gun and doesn't mind if you legally carry in his shop. just no open carry as that is banned these days.

Ronin2
09-18-2013, 10:28 PM
Looks like you clearly don't understand hyperbole. You seem rather proud of your ignorance.

Sorry but the nuances of your attempt at hyperbole were lost in the written text with no additional accentuation or smilies. One must take things as they are written/face value. Your post lacked any indication in the text that there is another meaning or intent.

My post on the matter deleted....

Cheers!

ScottB
09-19-2013, 7:36 AM
You want to know where the problem was?

Open carry rallies at Starbucks.

All of the idiots hosting gatherings with guns on your hips are what prompted this. They don't care if you carry in their store. They ask you not to, but they won't remove you.

THEY DO NOT WANT TO BE CENTER STAGED IN THIS. Gathering there for all the open carry events is what did this. Not MDA.

This. All the obsessive, tunnel-vision "my way everywhere all the time screw everyone else" clowns once again shot themselves in the foot. Do you guys ever learn? Getting in people's faces does not win - and getting in other customers' faces is really what these days were all about.

Once again, you acted like jerks, wore out your welcome and hurt your own cause in the process.

Starbucks is a business. They cater to the global general public. They do not want to carry your water or be your b itch. How come many here cannot understand that simple concept? Do you think the owner of your neighborhood bar would allow you to chase out other paying customers just because they are not part of your clique? The other customers would stay and your clique would be tossed out. You just don't mess with how other people feed their family.

Starbucks has (still) an enlightened, rational attitude about the issue. They could have outright prohibited guns in their stores. Most businesses would have. They just said, in effect, be discreet. Carry concealed (legally) and don't exploit Starbucks to make political statements. But that generous compromise is just not enough for the zealots. Too bad because you guys are the losers for your own selfish blindness.

rgray
09-19-2013, 7:40 AM
This. All the obsessive, tunnel-vision "my way everywhere all the time screw everyone else" clowns once again shot themselves in the foot. Do you guys ever learn? Getting in people's faces does not win - and getting in other customers' faces is really what these days were all about.

Once again, you acted like jerks, wore out your welcome and hurt your own cause in the process.

Starbucks is a business. They cater to the global general public. They do not want to carry your water or be your b itch. How come many here cannot understand that simple concept? Do you think the owner of your neighborhood bar would allow you to chase out other paying customers just because they are not part of your clique? The other customers would stay and your clique would be tossed out. You just don't mess with how other people feed their family.

Starbucks has (still) an enlightened, rational attitude about the issue. They could have outright prohibited guns in their stores. Most businesses would have. They just said, in effect, be discreet. Carry concealed (legally) and don't exploit Starbucks to make political statements. But that generous compromise is just not enough for the zealots. Too bad because you guys are the losers for your own selfish blindness.

Agreed

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Ninety
09-19-2013, 7:51 AM
I think the whole thing is getting totally blown out of proportion. Private property laws already state that the owner of the property can dictate if the property will be a "gun free zone" or not. This is nothing new.

As I've stated earlier, if you are carrying concealed, which is the only legal form of carry still left in the state, then there is no reason for anyone to ever know you brought a gun in the store in the first place.

Last time I checked Starbucks was a Nation wide company.. Take your CA blinders off..

A stance of " We follow all state laws " was a good and fair stance.. The OC crowd may have drummed up some bad publicity.. they could have banned Long guns in and around their stores. OC of handguns is somewhat common in places. To cave into "weapons are not welcome" is an anti gun stance. The "We don't want our employees to confront ARMED customers" shows a sense of fear.

The owner is a political activist. He has just taken a stance on the 2A and you need to decide if you are going to continue to shop there.

five.five-six
09-19-2013, 8:00 AM
Sorry but the nuances of your attempt at hyperbole were lost in the written text with no additional accentuation or smilies. One must take things as they are written/face value. Your post lacked any indication in the text that there is another meaning or intent.

My post on the matter deleted....

Cheers!

Note to self:

Regardless of how blatantly obvious satire and hyperbole is, make sure and use a smiley so the retards don't get confused.


Seriously, you thought I was promoting discrimination against blacks and gays? Really? Do you live under a rock?



Cheers!

Ronin2
09-19-2013, 8:41 AM
Note to self:

Regardless of how blatantly obvious satire and hyperbole is, make sure and use a smiley so the retards don't get confused.


Wow.....I am truly impressed with your level of arrogance and self aggrandizement. It makes what you are abundantly clear to everyone....

Seriously, you thought I was promoting discrimination against blacks and gays? Really? Do you live under a rock?

ROFL..Living under a rock?? REALLY? Thats your opnion of people who dont subscribe to your ad nauseum pontifications and commit them to memory or were you implying something else?

You are a moderator? For real?

five.five-six
09-19-2013, 8:50 AM
Wow.....I am truly impressed with your level of arrogance and self aggrandizement. It makes what you are abundantly clear to everyone....

You're obviously easily impressed. Impressed.

You should read some of the other responses to my post, everyone else understood what I was saying without the need for pictures or smiley, as you call them.

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Kestryll
09-19-2013, 9:01 AM
You are a moderator? For real?

NO, he is not.

Ronin2
09-19-2013, 9:07 AM
NO, he is not.

Thank god... I was having some misgivings about the wisdom of the staff here at Calguns. It looks like he just changed his avitar to no longer incorporate the word "moderator"...LOL I hope his ego can deal with that...

Strangely, he is probably some ******* I have met at some point either at the old Lake Elsinore Sportsmans Association or at West End Gun Club.

Anyone who knows his true identity.. I would appreciate a PM with the intel.

Frito Bandido
09-19-2013, 9:21 AM
This. All the obsessive, tunnel-vision "my way everywhere all the time screw everyone else" clowns once again shot themselves in the foot. Do you guys ever learn? Getting in people's faces does not win - and getting in other customers' faces is really what these days were all about.

Once again, you acted like jerks, wore out your welcome and hurt your own cause in the process.

Starbucks is a business. They cater to the global general public. They do not want to carry your water or be your b itch. How come many here cannot understand that simple concept? Do you think the owner of your neighborhood bar would allow you to chase out other paying customers just because they are not part of your clique? The other customers would stay and your clique would be tossed out. You just don't mess with how other people feed their family.

Starbucks has (still) an enlightened, rational attitude about the issue. They could have outright prohibited guns in their stores. Most businesses would have. They just said, in effect, be discreet. Carry concealed (legally) and don't exploit Starbucks to make political statements. But that generous compromise is just not enough for the zealots. Too bad because you guys are the losers for your own selfish blindness.

^ This

evilbisquit
09-19-2013, 9:55 AM
Why doesn't anyone seem to get it? Oh wait, this guy does...

This. All the obsessive, tunnel-vision "my way everywhere all the time screw everyone else" clowns once again shot themselves in the foot. Do you guys ever learn? Getting in people's faces does not win - and getting in other customers' faces is really what these days were all about.

Once again, you acted like jerks, wore out your welcome and hurt your own cause in the process.

Starbucks is a business. They cater to the global general public. They do not want to carry your water or be your b itch. How come many here cannot understand that simple concept? Do you think the owner of your neighborhood bar would allow you to chase out other paying customers just because they are not part of your clique? The other customers would stay and your clique would be tossed out. You just don't mess with how other people feed their family.

Starbucks has (still) an enlightened, rational attitude about the issue. They could have outright prohibited guns in their stores. Most businesses would have. They just said, in effect, be discreet. Carry concealed (legally) and don't exploit Starbucks to make political statements. But that generous compromise is just not enough for the zealots. Too bad because you guys are the losers for your own selfish blindness.

http://practicaltacticalpodcast.com/starbucks/

This guy does too.

Why don't some people understand that we aren't trying to convince the anti's, we're trying to convince the fence sitters? This is a political issue, and ham-fisted, naive, tacticool mall ninjas inexplicably carrying ARs into an f-ing Starbucks doesn't help anybody but the enemy. The 2A is a brand, and we have to do anything we can to make it look good. Not giving up rights, but not abusing those we have fought so hard to maintain. Starbucks policy was forced by fools that don't understand these basic principles, and you are equally a fool if you support them. Grow up and THINK. Did no one learn from the Open Carry ban in this very state? Anyone remember why that happened? Look to YouTube, you'll find the answer. It's time to think smart and out maneuver those who would take our rights all together.

HK35
09-19-2013, 10:03 AM
Why doesn't anyone seem to get it?

As you said, some do and some, just like some anti's, are so narrow minded and won't even take time to understand the issue that they immediately react. Sadly, we have our share of those individuals on this side.

Ronin2
09-19-2013, 10:16 AM
Why doesn't anyone seem to get it? Oh wait, this guy does...



http://practicaltacticalpodcast.com/starbucks/

This guy does too.

Why don't some people understand that we aren't trying to convince the anti's, we're trying to convince the fence sitters?This is a political issue, and ham-fisted, naive, tacticool mall ninjas inexplicably carrying ARs into an f-ing Starbucks doesn't help anybody but the enemy. The 2A is a brand, and we have to do anything we can to make it look good. Not giving up rights, but not abusing those we have fought so hard to maintain. Starbucks policy was forced by fools that don't understand these basic principles, and you are equally a fool if you support them. Grow up and THINK. Did no one learn from the Open Carry ban in this very state? Anyone remember why that happened? Look to YouTube, you'll find the answer. It's time to think smart and out maneuver those who would take our rights all together.

+++1

Unfortunately many gun owners seem to lack the ability to think strategically. Many are so caught up in the very short sighted "purity of their holy war" that they refuse to stregthen the NRA's influence with their membership and money OR any number of other "effective" pro 2A organizations. They are often the guys who own several thousands of dollars woth of gun's but wont " spend the money on a secure gunsafe that they could buy another cool mall ninja gun with"...LOL

hermosabeach
09-19-2013, 10:29 AM
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=825657&highlight=starbucks

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=824975&highlight=starbucks

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=825664&highlight=starbucks
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=825232&highlight=starbucks
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=825232&highlight=starbucks
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=825197&highlight=starbucks
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=825272&highlight=starbucks
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=825105&highlight=starbucks

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=825097&highlight=starbucks
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=811554&highlight=starbucks
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=825226&highlight=starbucks
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=825078&highlight=starbucks
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=824980&highlight=starbucks

I think you are missing the point... Starbucks are still one of the biggest gun neutral / gun supporting companies....

The Douche Bags who open carry, film the police response, get arrogant with the cops all while the STARBUCKS logo is the background is the problem....

You will find HUNDREDS of open carry stops on your tube of the Open Carry Police interaction videos.... Filmed with Starbucks as the backdrop

Open carry folks in CA could have all become instructors and taught Boy Scouts, new shooters and Women how to shoot a firearm... but they chose to walk up and down the beach and such....

the result was turning the public against guns.... not building confidence and comfort around firearms....

Can we stop with all of the Starbucks Threads???????????

five.five-six
09-19-2013, 12:11 PM
Why doesn't anyone seem to get it? Oh wait, this guy does...



Yea all those UOC guys, they should be ashamed of themselves for acting like Rosa Parks.





http://www.vapersforum.com/images/smilies/sarcasm.gif

Frito Bandido
09-19-2013, 12:26 PM
Yea all those UOC guys, they should be ashamed of themselves for acting like Rosa Parks.

Rosa Parks? Really? LOL.

five.five-six
09-19-2013, 12:38 PM
Rosa Parks? Really? LOL.

What part of civil rights is it that your object to?

voiceofreason
09-19-2013, 12:41 PM
Last time I checked Starbucks was a Nation wide company.. Take your CA blinders off..

A stance of " We follow all state laws " was a good and fair stance.. The OC crowd may have drummed up some bad publicity.. they could have banned Long guns in and around their stores. OC of handguns is somewhat common in places. To cave into "weapons are not welcome" is an anti gun stance. The "We don't want our employees to confront ARMED customers" shows a sense of fear.

The owner is a political activist. He has just taken a stance on the 2A and you need to decide if you are going to continue to shop there.

+1

especially the "CA blinders"

When I'm out of state, people open carry in SB and other places occasionally with NO issues. Ever in my experience. People don't blink, cops don't care. Nobody cares. If your gun is in your holster and you're not acting in a threatening matter, nobody blinks.

In CA, it's a HUGE deal, but on a national scale, it's pretty small potatoes.

Their policy of following local laws with no signage was the smartest business policy they could have.

They have essentially chosen their side and it's not ours.

They may as well have put up a sign that says

"Niggers aren't banned from coming in, but we'd request that they stay out."

Bigotry is bigotry, whether it's skin color or someone exercising their Constitutional rights.

"Gun rights are civil rights"

five.five-six
09-19-2013, 12:46 PM
we should just force anyone that owns a gun to sit at the back of the bus.

Spyguy
09-19-2013, 12:50 PM
So what if citizens were freely exercising their Second Amendment rights in public? The lawful OC customers weren't causing any problems. It was the pansy-a**ed hoplophobic libtard bedwetters that were calling the police and creating disturbances.

I'm disgusted at how many so-called 2nd Amendment supporters are siding with the antis on this issue.

Frito Bandido
09-19-2013, 12:54 PM
What part of civil rights is it that your object to?

Quite the prolific little troll aren't we, good sir.

Rosa Parks was on a city bus, which is public property. These idiots were at a Starbucks, which is private property. Public property and private property are not the same thing.

Starbucks is also not banning guns at their stores, not will they refuse to serve you if you do show up with a gun. They also won't ask you to leave or call the Police on you for bringing a gun into their store.

But yeah, let's ignore those facts. If carrying that cross makes you work up a thirst, I highly recommend a Venti White Chocolate Mocha Frappuccino. It's kind of a girly drink, but I'm secure enough in my masculinity to order one.

Frito Bandido
09-19-2013, 1:09 PM
So what if citizens were freely exercising their Second Amendment rights in public? The lawful OC customers weren't causing any problems. It was the pansy-a**ed hoplophobic libtard bedwetters that were calling the police and creating disturbances.

I'm disgusted at how many so-called 2nd Amendment supporters are siding with the antis on this issue.

Starbucks is located on private property. Your 2A rights on private property are subject to the consent of the property owner, same as 1A. Even so, you are not barred from going to a Starbucks wearing your favorite gun (unless you live in California, hah)... they are asking you to act like an adult and be considerate of others, and expressly state they will not bar you from exercising your right within their establishment, even though they would rather you not use their store as a soap box to make your political point at their expense.

Question:

If a muslim fellow went into a gun shop and started reading passages from the Koran out loud and praying on his little prayer mat next to the ammo shelves and protesting the muslim shooting targets, do you (rightly or wrongly) think the property owner has the right to tell them to STFU and/or leave because he's making some of his customers uncomfortable? Should other muslims boycott said gunshop for asking someone from their community to not be a douchebag? Would you agree with the gunshop owner? If so, does that mean you hate Freedom and Civil Rights?

five.five-six
09-19-2013, 1:26 PM
so, since Starbucks is private property they can force the coloreds to sit in the back right?

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voiceofreason
09-19-2013, 1:32 PM
Question:

If a muslim fellow went into a gun shop and started reading passages from the Koran out loud and praying on his little prayer mat next to the ammo shelves and protesting the muslim shooting targets, do you (rightly or wrongly) think the property owner has the right to tell them to STFU and/or leave because he's making some of his customers uncomfortable? Should other muslims boycott said gunshop for asking someone from their community to not be a douchebag? Would you agree with the gunshop owner? If so, does that mean you hate Freedom and Civil Rights?

The open carry people were not protesting, reading out loud, or praying in SB.

They simply walked in and bought coffee.

If the "muslim fellow" walked into a gun shop and was simply himself looking at and hopefully buying a gun... then the gun shop owner would not likely have a problem if he passes all hoops he's supposed to jump through to purchase a gun.

Frito Bandido
09-19-2013, 1:39 PM
so, since Starbucks is private property they can force the coloreds to sit in the back right?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I437 using Tapatalk 2

Oh jeeze, LOL.

OK, I'm done with this thread. If anyone else wants to keep feeding the trolls go right ahead :)

Frito Bandido
09-19-2013, 1:57 PM
The open carry people were not protesting, reading out loud, or praying in SB.

They simply walked in and bought coffee.

If the "muslim fellow" walked into a gun shop and was simply himself looking at and hopefully buying a gun... then the gun shop owner would not likely have a problem if he passes all hoops he's supposed to jump through to purchase a gun.


Ok I said I was done here but ill take one more for the road.

The muslim fellow you're describing isn't "in your face". He's being discrete, quiet and unobtrusive... you know, kinda like someone carrying concealed.

The guys walking in with shotguns and rifles strapped to their backs are doing it to be "in your face", they dont need to talk to anyone to put on a show like the muslim fellow in my example. They know it will draw negative attention, so they take cameras to record the inevitable and expected confrontation with law enforcement so they can carry their cross all the way to YouTube.

They are hurting our cause whether you choose to see it or not.

Ok im done for real this time!

five.five-six
09-19-2013, 2:28 PM
Quite the prolific little troll aren't we, good sir.

Rosa Parks was on a city bus, which is public property. These idiots were at a Starbucks, which is private property. Public property and private property are not the same thing.

So, a private bus company can tell the negro customers to sit at the back of the bus in your opinion? Grayhound for instance, a private company, in your opinion should have a "colored" seating section?


I am always fascinated by the bigoted hypocrites that are only interested in defending their own civil rights and couldn't give 2 ****s about anyone else’s civil rights.

evilbisquit
09-19-2013, 2:49 PM
Sometimes reading posts on this site makes me want shoot somebody's compensator with my .45, or at least throw something at the wall... We have at this time the unique position of having our rights taken away from us by our government with a majority of Americans generally uneducated on the subject. When they get their information from the media that already has a strong bias against us, why give them more fuel? Really... if you can't see the hidden movements here, maybe you just aren't very smart. Righteous zeal can only get one so far.

SuperSet
09-19-2013, 7:58 PM
Based on some of the pics I've seen, the OCers don't seem to be Starbucks-type folks. More like Dunkin Donuts. :)
Heard that Carolla today.

five.five-six
09-19-2013, 8:11 PM
Based on some of the pics I've seen, the OCers don't seem to be Starbucks-type folks. More like Dunkin Donuts. :)
Heard that Carolla today.

Wow, bigoted much? Do you have to dress like a hipster to enjoy a $7.00 cup of coffee?

SuperSet
09-19-2013, 8:16 PM
Wow, bigoted much? Do you have to dress like a hipster to enjoy a $7.00 cup of coffee?

It's a joke, man. And who doesn't love Dunkin Donuts?

Ronin2
09-19-2013, 10:22 PM
Did someone say "donuts" ????

sharxbyte
09-20-2013, 7:42 AM
Yea all those UOC guys, they should be ashamed of themselves for acting like Rosa Parks.





http://www.vapersforum.com/images/smilies/sarcasm.gif

Rosa parks sat in a bus where she wasn't allowed. People ARE allowed to open carry (outside of CA). If you want Rosa Parks status, LOC your rifle in CA and see where it gets you. (IANAL)


Technically nude protests are considered free speech. How about you go protest nude in front of an elementary school and see where THAT gets you.

:facepalm:

Again, IANAL. but honestly, do you see the point? Carrying a rifle inside or around Starbucks is like a nude protest by an elementary school. Technically legal, but NOT a good idea, because it draw's NEGATIVE attention to what you are doing, no matter whether you're trying to support 2a, or baskets full of kittens.

five.five-six
09-20-2013, 1:36 PM
Sitting forward of the colored section sign was considered "NOT a good idea because it draw's NEGATIVE attention to what you are doing" at the time.

Scotty
09-20-2013, 4:31 PM
It looks like McDonalds and Dunkin Donuts will be open carry friendly...for now.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/heres-mcdonalds-dunkin-donuts-had-211403243.html

five.five-six
09-20-2013, 4:57 PM
My work is done here.

seo
09-20-2013, 5:18 PM
I am just amazed at all the so-called conservatives here who are advocating that we take away the rights of a business owner to serve who they want.

They want their rights but they want to take aways someone else's. Wow!

five.five-six
09-20-2013, 5:32 PM
I am just amazed at all the so-called conservatives here who are advocating that we take away the rights of a business owner to serve who they want.

They want their rights but they want to take aways someone else's. Wow!

And I am just amazed that he so called progressives here have no problem with business owners discriminating against whomever they like. Then again it was the democrats that fought so hard for "separate but equal" water fountains.

http://adifferentstateofblack.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/black-and-colored-drinking-water1.jpg

voiceofreason
09-21-2013, 8:27 AM
posted in comments from an article (don't remember where)


crismo99 on Sep 20, 5:30 PM said:
In an open letter from Howard Schultz to ask the public not to bring guns into Starbucks I have decided to agree to his request.
http://www.starbucks.com/blog/an-open-letter-from-howard-schultz/1268
Apparently I am a non desirable customer who has been coming to starbucks for years.
I am given Starbucks coffee cards on a regular bases from my wife who is given cards as a gift at work from co workers and from clients.
It has almost become a form of money with my fellow workers and clients as a way to say thanks!
So as of today I have given the three cards in my wallet and two additional cards I had at home totaling $78.54 to five different homeless people. Apparently Starbucks considers this portion of the population to be more desirable customers.
I will be giving every card I am given to another homeless person as I am sure they would like to get in out of the rain and enjoy a nice hot cup of coffee and a clean restroom here in Portland OR
I encourage everyone to do their part to help a homeless person feed themselves and why not at Starbucks.
They can even sit for hours out of the rain just like all the Hipsters do.
I am sure this new group of customers will help sales as they will be wanting to come back often.
I will never walk into another Starbucks as I am now an undesirable paying customer.
I will not give Starbucks cards to anyone else as there are many good coffee houses in the Portland area.

five.five-six
09-21-2013, 8:44 AM
^ Love it

chuckdc
09-21-2013, 12:30 PM
I am just amazed at all the so-called conservatives here who are advocating that we take away the rights of a business owner to serve who they want.

They want their rights but they want to take aways someone else's. Wow!

They're not taking away the company's rights, just exercising their right to not patronize their stores, and asking others (that would be freedom of speech) to also refrain from doing so. The company has no RIGHT to my or anyone else's business. By imposing what is really a ban with a smiley-face (we request that you not bring weapons into our store, etc, but we don't want to actually have to stand up for our decision by enforcing it), they have lost the revenue from the customers that they have banned. I'm pretty sure they'll do OK without it, but as a matter of conscience, I (and others) just won't do business with them. Not only that, I also have every right to attempt to convince others not to, also. I'm not saying the government should get involved, nor do I believe any laws should be passed or litigation started. I would rather that the power of the market work instead.


I'll leave it to the "progressives" to try to get the government to control everyone's lives for them. I don't lie awake at night worrying that someone somewhere is doing something of which I don't approve and trying to work out ways to stop it. I have better things to do.

soulfresh
09-24-2013, 12:19 PM
he has a point

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OVrXF-NB0E

voiceofreason
09-24-2013, 12:26 PM
Ok I said I was done here but ill take one more for the road.

The muslim fellow you're describing isn't "in your face". He's being discrete, quiet and unobtrusive... you know, kinda like someone carrying concealed.

The guys walking in with shotguns and rifles strapped to their backs are doing it to be "in your face", they dont need to talk to anyone to put on a show like the muslim fellow in my example. They know it will draw negative attention, so they take cameras to record the inevitable and expected confrontation with law enforcement so they can carry their cross all the way to YouTube.

They are hurting our cause whether you choose to see it or not.

Ok im done for real this time!

If you like long guns, how is that "in your face"?

Remember the signs that used to say "No Negroes Allowed" "No Blacks Allowed"?

Should black people cover up their skin? Should they stop wearing bright clothing because it attracts too much attention?

If someone does something for political, vocal 1st amendment reasons, that is their choice.

It may not be the most helpful for the cause... but it is the FIRST amendment right to express themselves that way.

Why should gun owners hide their guns?

Remember that a business and other private properties have the right to not allow you in.

You have the right to not spend your money there.

voiceofreason
09-24-2013, 12:27 PM
I agree with almost everything said in the video.

Except we need to differentiate between smart and what is right.

Support the 1st as well as the 2nd.

dustoff31
09-24-2013, 2:57 PM
Yea all those UOC guys, they should be ashamed of themselves for acting like Rosa Parks.

Rosa Parks gained the sympathy of the public. And she won.

Neither of those things are happening for the OC crowd.

five.five-six
09-24-2013, 3:09 PM
Rosa Parks gained the sympathy of the public. And she won.

Neither of those things are happening for the OC crowd.

Your historical perspective is deficient. What parks did was very controversial at the time. The UOCers are doing EXACTLY what Parks did, which was to stand up for civil rights and in defiance of tyranny.

dustoff31
09-24-2013, 3:18 PM
Your historical perspective is deficient. What parks did was very controversial at the time. The UOCers are doing EXACTLY what Parks did, which was to stand up for civil rights and in defiance of tyranny.

Actually it's not. Rosa Parks was not the first to engage in civil disobedience. Nor was she just some random black lady. She was carefully selected to engender public sympathy in her civil disobedience.

Yeah, the OC's are doing just what she was doing. :rolleyes: Except, as I mentioned, they are losing.

Wrangler John
09-25-2013, 9:58 AM
I counted the times I have been in a Starbucks - 4 times. One of those was to use the restroom which required purchase of a coffee, another was to meet my investment broker during lunch. The coffee sucks, is overpriced and the atmosphere is so petite bourgeoisie with obvious pretense that a $9.00 cup of foam with a pretentious name could elevate one to the aristocratic class, that I left at the earliest possible moment. The coffee at Pete's Coffee & Tea is even worse, but what should one expect from Berkeley? Coffee is not supposed to be bitter and marked with flavor notes common to Cuban and Nicaraguan cigars.

Aside from personal preferences, and the compulsion to be a snobby coffee critic, wherein here at home we drink only Kona Coffee from single estate sources, my road-trip - out and about, coffee source is McDonald's or the complementary coffee at various casinos. So, there we have it. Even if Starbucks built indoor ranges behind the coffee bar, I would still pass by. :oji:

ChrisC
09-25-2013, 10:41 AM
It's a joke, man. And who doesn't love Dunkin Donuts?

I don't, I grew up with and much more prefer Winchell's. And Krispy Kreme's is trash in my opinion.

But I'l eat onion rings from anywhere!!

Pryde
09-25-2013, 11:28 AM
Stop comparing OC to race, it is not only a disingenuous argument, it makes us look extremely racist.

A black person cannot hide the fact that they are black, it is not their choice by which they can choose to identify themselves.

An open carrier is choosing to go out and be a d-bag and bring attention to themselves. You are not a victim, but you are recklessly putting yourself yourself in a bad situation.

A more apt comparison is that open carriers are like gays who want people to accept homosexuality as normal but choose to go out in public dressed in drag acting super flamboyant and making everyone uncomfortable.

You guys are really undermining your own goal.

fr33domfightr
09-25-2013, 1:05 PM
Since you started talking about public vs. private, speech and guns:

Is it OK, in your mind, if people were standing on PUBLIC land, with signs promoting their cause (an example of 1st amendment rights)?

Is it OK, in your mind, if people were standing on PUBLIC land, bearing guns, promoting their cause (an example of 2nd amendment rights)?

SoCalGunny
09-29-2013, 2:33 PM
So what if citizens were freely exercising their Second Amendment rights in public? The lawful OC customers weren't causing any problems. It was the pansy-a**ed hoplophobic libtard bedwetters that were calling the police and creating disturbances.

I'm disgusted at how many so-called 2nd Amendment supporters are siding with the antis on this issue.

Couldn't agree with you more. It sickens me to see such bickering between what should be a united front.

Guess what people, the Anti's are winning because they are dividing us.

If you don't want to OC thats fine but you have no business telling others they should OC or CCW. If it is the RIGHT in the area being done then it shouldn't matter between supposed 2a "Supporters".

Cherry picking OC and CCW is as dumb as Hunters not supporting the NRA because "They aren't coming after my guns".

pc_load_letter
09-29-2013, 3:05 PM
Couldn't agree with you more. It sickens me to see such bickering between what should be a united front.

Guess what people, the Anti's are winning because they are dividing us.

If you don't want to OC thats fine but you have no business telling others they should OC or CCW. If it is the RIGHT in the area being done then it shouldn't matter between supposed 2a "Supporters".

Cherry picking OC and CCW is as dumb as Hunters not supporting the NRA because "They aren't coming after my guns".

Yeah, open carrying an AR or shotgun into a starbucks was the genius move. Gun owners did it to themselves. You lost this battle and in the PR campaign of gun ownership, you are losing.

I have NOOOOOOOO problem calling them a bunch of a-holes.

SoCalGunny
09-29-2013, 8:53 PM
Yeah, open carrying an AR or shotgun into a starbucks was the genius move. Gun owners did it to themselves. You lost this battle and in the PR campaign of gun ownership, you are losing.

I have NOOOOOOOO problem calling them a bunch of a-holes.

Way to exercise those rights.

Whats the point of having the rights if you never use them.

fr33domfightr
09-30-2013, 6:32 AM
This kind of reminds me of the Chik-fil-A uproar in the gay community. They, the gay community, didn't like statements the business made and donations they made to pro-family/christian groups.

Gays organized and protested by swamping the restaurants. The result, everyone got served as best they could. No gays lost freedom of speech rights.

Even though we may choose to exercise or promote our rights in different ways, none should be barred or limited. There are exceptions when on someone else's private property, but as we saw from the gay community, that didn't stop them, and it didn't result in a loss of their 1A freedoms by statute.

If we don't work as an organized group to promote the 2A, we will lose it.

Pryde
10-14-2013, 8:26 PM
Yeah, open carrying an AR or shotgun into a starbucks was the genius move. Gun owners did it to themselves. You lost this battle and in the PR campaign of gun ownership, you are losing.

I have NOOOOOOOO problem calling them a bunch of a-holes.

This guy gets it.

Oliver_Charles
10-14-2013, 9:17 PM
***

G31911
10-23-2013, 10:23 AM
I wonder how much money Starbucks has lost since that letter was written or if the loss was so minimal that they didn't even notice? I know a lot of people that won't go near Starbucks anymore.

vtabiker
10-23-2013, 12:42 PM
I wonder how much money Starbucks has lost since that letter was written or if the loss was so minimal that they didn't even notice? I know a lot of people that won't go near Starbucks anymore.

On the flip I don't know anyone that has. Most are still conceal carrying in just like always. I think most people get it that it makes people uncomfortable in a lot of places when someone walks in with a rifle across their back.

Jason95357
05-31-2014, 5:47 PM
Get a CCW permit, then they won't know. That's what I did.

I still have a problem supporting a place that asks customers not to bring in any firearms. As far as California goes, I would much rather them have a policy such as the Chili's policy which is fine with licensed permit holders carrying (not that I like their policy of no OC). It's a tough spot for the to be in, because even here on Calguns we cannot agree if OC is good or not.

New story about Sonic getting robbed the day corporate adopts a no-guns policy. (http://trib.al/Z6bn5zA) had me looking for "no guns = no money" cards. Founds a few for other states.